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View Full Version : Debate: Abu Aadam vs. RolaAus AKA Robert



tresbien
03-22-2007, 01:55 PM
PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING COLLECTION OF TESTIMONIES FROM FORMER MISSIONARIES AT

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/x...php?category=1


Below are the posts in a dialogue between RolaAus (aka 'ecomventure' aka 'mohammedabojahal', 'fitnahfitnah' and 'hisdisciple2000'), a Christian active in many of Yahoo's Islamic clubs, and myself. RolaAus' first post was in response to the Christianity page.

Judging from several conversations with RolaAus, its seems he is unable to respond further, despite saying that he has 'simple answers' to my questions. If he ever finds those 'simple answers', I'll be more than happy to publish them here and continue with this dialogue, God-Willing. In the mean time, if any other Christian is able to answer the questions RolaAus could not, please contact me.
Let me get this right -- I have heard Muslims say that Jesus did not die on the cross - AND that He did not rise from the dead -- yet you pose an interesting statment

...you say on your website (concerning Jesus) "We love him, and believe in him, and affirm all of his miracles, bestowed upon him as a favour from his Lord."
..on this page

http://thetruereligion.org/christianity.htm

can you elaborate as to why you say you affirm all of His miracles??

(of course this is taking for granted that you are not like all the other Muslims that come along, post their websites - which are just copies of other peoples thoughts and efforts - then when the questions get too hard suddently up and disappear -- are you firm enough in your faith to stay and answer questions -- or is it too late and you are not even bothering to follow up on your posting of your website URL??

[Note: The URL has been updated - our site has moved since this dialogue took place]
Hi RolaAus,

I hope you are well.

Thank you for responding to the invitation to my homepage 'The True Religion'. I am pleased that you have considered what I wrote and have come up with a meaningful question. I also warmly invite our fellow members to visit this site and familiarise themselves so that they are better able to understand our dialogue - it is located at http://thetruereligion.org

You mentioned:

"(of course this is taking for granted that you are not like all the other Muslims that come along, post their websites - which are just copies of other peoples thoughts and efforts - then when the questions get too hard suddently up and disappear -- are you firm enough in your faith to stay and answer questions -- or is it too late and you are not even bothering to follow up on your posting of your website URL?? "

God-Willing, I will answer your questions to the best of my ability. My goal is not to offend you or other Christians in this forum, but rather to answer the questions you put to me truthfully and to raise relevant points in light of the Islamic position. I hope the sincere seekers of Truth will reflect upon our dialogue with a mind free of prejudice and a desire to seek the guidance and pleasure of God All-Mighty, to whom all praise is due.

Now, let us proceed to the matter at hand.

You said:

"Let me get this right -- I have heard Muslims say that Jesus did not die on the cross - AND that He did not rise from the dead -- yet you pose an interesting statment

...you say on your website (concerning Jesus) "We love him, and believe in him, and affirm all of his miracles, bestowed upon him as a favour from his Lord."

..on this page

http://thetruereligion.org/christianity.htm

can you elaborate as to why you say you affirm all of His miracles??"

Indeed. You are correct in saying that we believe Jesus did not die on the cross and that he did not rise from the dead, and that we affirm his miracles. Knowing the Muslims love Jesus, peace be upon him, and believe in his miracles may come as a surprise to some Christians. This is to be expected since there have been centuries of mistrust and misunderstanding of Muslims by Christians.

The reason we affirm his miracles is because God affirms these miracles in His final revelation to mankind, the Qur'an. As a Muslim (which means: 'one who submits to God'), I naturally believe in whatever the Lord has revealed to us in His Book, the Qur'an. Based on what God has said, we believe in Jesus's virgin birth, his healing of the blind and the leper, his raising of a dead person, and other miracles all of which were bestowed upon him as a favour from his Lord. For example, here are some of the miracles of Jesus, peace be upon him, mentioned in the Qur'an:

Virgin Birth: ('She' is this verse refers to Mary, the mother of Jesus, peace be upon him)

She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me." He said: "So (it will be) for Allah creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: "Be!" and it is. [Qur'an 3:47]

Raising the dead, and other miracles:

And will make him ['Iesa (Jesus)] a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life by Allah's Leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe. [Qur'an 3:49]

Also, God tells us that He in fact saved Jesus from being killed :

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]: But Allah raised him ['Iesa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise. [Qur'an 4:157-158]

In essence, Muslims believe in Jesus (p) as great Messenger of All-Mighty God, and love him greatly. This is so important in fact, that anyone who claims to be a Muslim yet deviated from this belief would be considered outside the fold of Islam. One of the unique aspects of Islam is that we believe in all of the Messengers of God, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus, John, and Muhammad - the last of the messengers - peace be upon them all. Further, the core teaching of all of these messengers was the SAME - a call to the Oneness of God and His exclusive worship, and to righteousness. This is to be expected since their teachings came from the same source - The One True God. The laws each messenger brought were different according to the needs of the community to whom each was sent, but Muhammad (p), the last messenger was sent to the whole of mankind with a way of life that is valid until the Day of Judgement.

The main difference between Islam and Christianity comes about concerning Jesus (p). Whereas we Muslims worship the One True God, creator of the heavans and earth and all that exists, exclusively, Christians worship Jesus (p) alongside the One True God. Whereas you worship Jesus (p), we worship the Creator of Jesus (p). Whereas you worship one who ate, drank, relieved himself in the bathroom, we worship the One who is perfect in all His Attributes, free of all human needs. God says about Himself:

There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer. [Qur'an 42:11].

Whereas you take Jesus as your saviour, we take the One who saved Jesus, and who Jesus turned to for help, as our saviour. The first words of the Qur'an are:

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful [Qur'an 1:1].

He is Most Merifcul and can forgive us our sins. He does not require anyone's blood sacrifice to forgive us. If we turn to him to sincere repentance, He will indeed forgive us our sins. This is the true path to salvation.

Think about it: Why do you worship one who himself worshipped God ? This shows a need and a weakness on the part of the one worshipping, since he is dependent on a higher authority, whereas God is perfect, free of all weaknesses and dependencies.

Reason and revelation tell us that only God is the one deserving of our worship, not a human being - even a Prophet who performed miracles. All prophets had miracles bestowed upon them as a Sign and a proof of their Prophethood - yet none of them ever worshipped other than God. This is the example they left us. Unfortunately, Christianity deviated from the pure monotheism taught by Jesus (p). Whereas the Jews went to one extreme, by calling Jesus (p) an imposter and in some cases the illegitimate son of a Roman solider and Mary, Christians went to the other extreme be elevating him to be a 'flesh-god' to be worshipped beside the One God, and whose blood sacrifice would redeem them. By adopting these beliefs, Christians have fallen into polytheism similar to the Roman pagans of Jesus' time.

Islam gives us the true position between these two extremes: Jesus (p) is neither a liar, nor a god, but a truthful messenger of God. One of the names of the Qur'an is The Criterion (Arabic: al-Furqan) because it discerns between the truth and the falsehood. It affirms what is true, and corrects what is false. It is a preserved scripture, unlike the Bible, that gives us clear answers to the questions and confusions caused by Trinitarian doctrine over the centuries.

This should not surprise us: Doctrines made by men create confusion, and lead one astray in belief and deed. But we need not despair, since God, in His infinite Mercy has made clear to mankind that the path to everlasting paradise is one: Submission to Him alone.

By accepting God's final message to mankind, the Qur'an, revealed to His final and greatest messenger Muhammad (p), one returns to teaching of all the Prophets of God, including Abraham, Moses, and Jesus concerning the Oneness of God. One also experiences the fullness of God's guidance to mankind, since the Qur'an is the pinnacle of God's message.

There is much that can be said on these topics, but I hope I have answered your question and given you something to consider. RolaAus, thank you once again for your question, I am sure you have plenty more. I am looking forward to hearing from you soon.

All praise is due to God, who sent His messenger Muhammad (p) to guide mankind from darkness into light.

Regards,

Abu Aadam

VTo be completely honest with you - I only breezed through these 3 postings because I've heard most of it before.

But answer one of your questions (paraphrased) 'why worship someone who themselves worshiped God'
--but more on that below -- on Jesus death - even your own Qu'ran shows us that Jesus DID INDEED DIE and WAS RISEN AGAIN -- in chap 19:33
33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
(quoted from http://islam.org/mosque/QURAN/19.htm)
--- can you explain this one??!!??

simply put, Jesus was put on this earth for 2 reasons - the first to save our sins, through dieing for our sins, because He was sinless, and 2 to show His believers how to live a Godly life - through His life - by example, not by command as had been done with the 10 commandments and various other commands from God.

What does this mean - if Jesus had come down in His full glory (of God) we would not have seen Him pray until He sweat blood, asking that if it's God's will that His cup be taken away from Him (referring - days before Judas betrayed Him - to His death - He KNEW it was going to happen *NOTE* Did Muhummed KNOW what he was going to pass on - I think not!)

We believers would have not had an example of how to treat people that misunderstand the Word of God (like the Pharisees and the modern day Pharisees - the Muslims) -- when He returns, there will be no doubt - but Jesus lived to show us an example of how to treat those doubters (though I must admit not following His example in this respect - there are cases when Jesus was justifiably irrate - like when they turned the temple into a marketplace)
RolaAus,

I hope you are well today. Thanks for your response and further questions. In your justification for why you worship someone who himself worshipped God, you said:

"simply put, Jesus was put on this earth for 2 reasons - the first to save our sins, through dieing for our sins, because He was sinless, and 2 to show His believers how to live a Godly life - through His life - by example, not by command as had been done with the 10 commandments and various other commands from God.

What does this mean - if Jesus had come down in His full glory (of God) we would not have seen Him pray until He sweat blood, asking that if it's God's will that His cup be taken away from Him (referring - days before Judas betrayed Him - to His death - He KNEW it was going to happen ..." (I will talk about your 'NOTE' here a little later, God-Willing.)

First, God is Merciful and Forgiving, and is fully capable of forgiving our sins, as well as being sinless - so why does He need to come down to earth as a human being and then be beaten up and then 'die' - according to you - in order to forgive us ? He hears and responds to the sincere repentance of believers. His Mercy is not limited. Why cannot a human being worship God and have a fulfilling relationship with God unless God turns into a human being ? - What does this say about God and His creation - is He incapable of guiding us as He is ? What about before this alleged 'incarnation', what about Abraham and Moses, were they somehow deprived in their relationship with God, or was God not able to guide them perfectly, since he was just God and didn't turn into a human being ?

Or looked at from a different perspective, why the suffering and punishment upon the innocent man Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, for something God can do anytime He wants (forgive us) anyway ? Why does God demand a horrific blood-sacrifice in order to forgive us our sins ? Its not Jesus' fault we sinned, he is innocent, so why should our All-Merciful God demand his cruel and bloody death ? This idea is more akin to the Aztec's cruel false deities than the Merciful God of Abraham. God SAVED Jesus - this is what the Qur'an says, and what is consistent with Our Lord's infinite Mercy. The only reason Christian theology developed the idea of an Incarnational Saviour was in order to 'deal with' the other man made doctrine: Original Sin. The words 'Personal Saviour' so popular amongst evangelical Christians were never spoken by Jesus, according to the Bible, nor do they appear anywhere in their New Testament. The truth is that God is Merciful and Forgiving and will accept our sincere repentance. God Himself says:

"Your Lord knows best what is in your inner-selves. If you are righteous, then, verily, He is Ever Most Forgiving to those who turn unto Him again and again in obedience, and in repentance." [Qur'an 17:25]

Further, you say that God died for our sins. The idea of the Eternal and Ever-Living God DIEING is ridiculous. If God died, who resurrected God ? If God really died, there would be no one left to resurrect Him. If God was alive to resurrect God, then God didn't die. I ask: Does this honestly make sense to anyone ? Christians take refuge in calling this obviously contradictory and illogical position a 'mystery'. But God wants to guide us and illuminate us with His Truth, not confound us. The truth is that confusion like this comes not from God, but from a man-made doctrine. The man-god myth is quite well established amongst many ancient cultures, including the one at Jesus' time, and the idea of incarnation is more akin to the polytheistic pagan conceptions of god than the One True God that Abraham, Moses and Jesus, peace be upon them all, worshipped. Whats so hard about believing in the One God the way Abraham, Moses and Jesus did ? Is there any Christian, including you RolaAus, who can justify and explain the doctrine of Trinity and/or Incarnation to me ?

Secondly, you said Jesus came "to show His believers how to live a Godly life - through His life - by example". I agree in the sense that he was an example to his followers, just as every Prophet is an example to his followers during his prophethood. Prophets teach us the scripture and wisdom, and show us how God is to be worshipped. So how does this justify you worshipping a man who himself worshipped God ? Haven't you just cited an argument against yourself ? If Jesus was an example, and he worshipped God, then shouldn't you follow his example and worship God too ? Jesus never worshipped himself, or asked himself for forgiveness, or any of these things. He turned to his Creator and His Lord, so isn't that what we all ought to do, also ?

Also, an example is someone we can follow and attempt to emulate. It makes sense that the example is fundamentally like us, so that we can follow him or her even if we are never quite as good as him or her, because he or she is the best at what they do. So, it follows that since we are human beings, our example should also be a human being. Don't we have a much better chance of learning from the example of one like us, a human being, rather than a man-god hybrid who we can never truly be like since he is a different, fundamentally different 'creature' altogether ? Once again, your statements would seem to hinder rather than support your hypothesis that Jesus (p) was God. The only thing that reason and revelation suggest to solve all of these questions and problems is that Jesus is a man, the great messenger of God All-Mighty, and not God Himself.

In your allegation that the Qur'an says Jesus, peace be upon him, died, you said:

"on Jesus death - even your own Qur'an shows us that Jesus DID INDEED DIE and WAS RISEN AGAIN -- in chap 19:33
33. "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!
(quoted from http://islam.org/mosque/QURAN/19.htm)
--- can you explain this one??!!??"

Yes, praise be to God, this is easily explained in the Qur'an itself, and further elaborated upon by the divinely inspired words of the Prophet Muhammad (called 'ahadith').

You have misinterpreted this verse (19:33), and ignored the other verses which speak about this topic. The Qur'an nowhere says Jesus (p) died, as you assert. Read the verse you quoted, 19:33, again, and read with it also the verse I talked about in my last post 4:157 which states that God saved Jesus (p) from death. Verse 3:55 also explains that Jesus (p) was saved. I will not quote here, to save space, but please check it at the URL you gave us. Jesus (p) in 19:33 is saying that he will die, and will be raised again. From these 3 verses together, we understand that Jesus did not die, and was in fact saved, but that when he talks to his death he is referring to a future event. When Jesus (p) will return to earth (yes, Muslims believe this!), he will live amongst us, and die, like every human being dies, and be resurrected, like every human being. This is what 19:33 refers to. The words of the Prophet Muhammad ('ahadith') further explained this point - see http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/content41.html for what he said, having received revelation from God, about the End Times and the return of Jesus (p), his death, and so on.

Now, when you made your justification for worshipping someone who himself worshipped God, you added a note saying:

"*NOTE* Did Muhummed KNOW what he was going to pass on - I think not!"

Regarding your allegation that you think Muhammad, peace be upon him, did not know he was going to die (I presume that is what you mean, but your language is not very clear here) - that is false. Muhammad (p) predicted his death and a number of events that would occur after that with complete accuracy, as well as a number of other prophecies which were completely fulfilled, such as the conquests of Constantinople, Egypt, Persia, the uprising against Uthman, the assassination of Ali, and some which are being fulfilled here and now such as the minor signs of the Last Day, and some which will be fulfilled in the future, such as the conquest of Rome. This is an entire topic in itself, so I refer you to the following page on my site that lists some of these prophecies by Prophet Muhammad (P) with the proper references: http://thetruereligion.org/muhammadprophecy.htm . In addition to this, other prophecies which came true can be found in the Qur'an itself: http://thetruereligion.org/quranprophecy.htm

Note that these prophecies, amongst other miracles performed by him such as the splitting of the moon, the multiplication of food and water, healing, and many other miracles eye-witnessed by many people of that time and faithfully recorded and authentically transmitted to us, and the greatest miracle of all bestowed upon him, the Qur'an itself (see http://thetruereligion.org/revelation.htm for the miraculous aspects of the Qur'an), indicate the fact that Muhammad (p) was indeed a true Prophet. These are not the vague interpretations of some mystic, but the clear truth that came to pass, and could only have been given to him from his Lord, the One True God. I ask everyone to read the information on the page I just mentioned and sincerely ask themselves, in their heart: Is it feasible that this amazing book, which is linguistically perfect and inimitable, contains true prophecy, is internally and externally consistent, is confirmed by findings in history and archaeology, and mentions scientific information centuries ahead of its time only recently discovered, is really the work of an illiterate, uneducated Arab man living in a tribal country in a desert in the 7th Century after Christ, or is it the words of All-Mighty God to His messenger ?

Finally, I ask you all to pray to the One All-Mighty God (by which I mean who you call 'God The Father', and not Prophet Jesus), the Sustainer and Creator of all that exists and ask Him to guide your soul to whatever is pleasing to Him, because he is All-Knowing, and the All-Hearing who never fails to hear our prayers.

Thanks for your time, RolaAus. I look forward to hearing from you soon regarding the points raised in this post. Take care.

Regards,

Abu Aadam


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http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...hp?category=29
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