Truth or religion?

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cali dude

cali dude

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Well folks,

I believe that truth is highest of all, even higher than religions.

First of all, do you agree with this?

Secondly, you may have seen people getting offended by the truth about their religion because they think truth makes their religion look bad.

Do you think it makes sense to get offended by the truth? I personally don't think so.

Also since religion is supposed to be pure with nothing bad at all, do you think you should leave the religion if you find enough evidence of wrongdoings in a religion? Now when I mention religion, it's not referring to people of the religion in general. But the founders of the religion or the main people in the religion.

Thank you very much :)

PS: Please keep in mind I am discussing religion in general and there is no attack on any religion in particular.

Also, please keep in mind that there is reason why my way of life is undisclosed. That means I may agree with everything Sikhi has to say but it does not make me a Sikh, a true Sikh for that matter. So, do not attack Sikhi in anyway while responding to my post(s).
 
You are making the huge assumption that 'truth' is absolute rather than relative. Whether it actually is has been hotly debated by philosophers as long as there have been philosophers.

There are two types of religious people. The first will happily accept that truth is probably relative. The others believe it to be absolute, but so closely linked to their religion (specifically to God) that the two are, to all intents and purposes, the same; they cannot acknowledge any attempted distinction between the two.

Good luck!
 
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Well, there is material "truth" and religious "truth". Faith is so aligned with "truth" that it is hard to separate one from the other, at least in the case of people with faith.
 
i agree with trumble - you are assuming that "truth" is absolute.
a person's religion is their truth.
when you talk about people getting offended when confronted with the truth of their relgion - you are making another assumption. since religion is built on faith - how can you positively say it is false?
 
The word of God is absolute truth. Where the truth becomes relative is when mankind begins to translate or interpret the word of God.

I could call myself Muslim, Jew, Christian etc but I still believe in the same God, all that changes is my belief in mankinds interpretations of Gods words (which if we are truthful the basis of peace, tolerance, charity, etc change very little between the religions).
 
Yes, but would the Word of God, which I agree is the ultimate Truth, qualify as the truth for a non-believer or someone of a different faith altogether?
 
Hmmm interesting question Keltoi and one would have to assume no. As mathmatics and most science is still not 'proven' then you would have to say that there is no absolute truth for a non believer.

Perhaps their only truth is that we are all born and we all die? Or is this statement in intself relative?

This is a great question......gives the brain a workout lol
 
Keltoi said:
Yes, but would the Word of God, which I agree is the ultimate Truth, qualify as the truth for a non-believer or someone of a different faith altogether?
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no it wouldn't - but that doesn't prove anything. it is true for you. how can anyone "prove" that it is not true?
 
snakelegs said:
no it wouldn't - but that doesn't prove anything. it is true for you. how can anyone "prove" that it is not true?
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The religious part of my brain wants to answer you can't 'prove' it is not true because Allah is the ultimate truth but as a scientist I have no alternative than to accept that we cannot 'prove' the existence of Allah.

Just because something is true for one person does not make it true for another. So does truth require consensus?
 
no, i don't think it requires "consensus".
allah is the ultimate truth - this is true for you, but maybe not for someone else. is one right and the other wrong? not in my view, but it really doesn't matter because it can not be proven either way and it requires no proof.
it is certainly true for the billion + muslims in any case.
i think cali dude's question is based on a false premise.
 
Certainly for me no proof is required, Allah is the ultimate truth. It is still an interesting question to mull over, what is truth?

The second part of the question "you may have seen people getting offended by the truth about their religion because they think truth makes their religion look bad". I don't think we can say the truth about any religion makes it look bad, it is mans interpretations that can make a religion look bad.
 
samah12 said:
Certainly for me no proof is required, Allah is the ultimate truth. It is still an interesting question to mull over, what is truth?

The second part of the question "you may have seen people getting offended by the truth about their religion because they think truth makes their religion look bad". I don't think we can say the truth about any religion makes it look bad, it is mans interpretations that can make a religion look bad.
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again, who is in any position to declare the truth about someone else's religion? it's ridiculous really. you know the truth about your religion and that's all that is necessary. nobody else knows any better than you.
 
snakelegs said:
again, who is in any position to declare the truth about someone else's religion? it's ridiculous really. you know the truth about your religion and that's all that is necessary. nobody else knows any better than you.
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Correct Snakelegs but then does that make all truth individual perseption? Is a sphere round or does it depend on your perseption?
 
religion is immaterial so it is a different system than science or the material world. this makes it no less real, but it means that it neither has nor requires proof.
as an agnostic, i believe in no religion, but i would certainly be in no position to declare any one of them false.
now the originial poster says "do not attack sikhi in any way while responding". so....does this mean he would think it's ok to point out "the truth" about someone else's religion, but that person could not point out "the truth" about sikhism?
to me the whole premise of this thread is rather absurd. who knows "the truth" about somebody else's religion (which is their truth and just as valid as the questioner's)?
 
First of all, the concept of "religion" itself differs from faith to faith. So that some faiths are merely a system of rituals, such as Judaism, or a system of beliefs, such as Christianity, and more or less do not go beyond that. Islam on the other hand is not simply a mazhab, it is a deen. The word deen means much more than "Religion" from a western conception. Islam is the Truth (capital T), whereas all other faiths and religions may possess some truth (lower case t). Islam has guidance for every aspect of humanity, whether in the political, economic, social, psychological, or spiritual, etc. So you will find that many Christians or any other faith community will claim that Truth transcends even their faith, but you will never find a Muslim say this. There is no higher truth for man to discover other than what Allah Taala has already revealed in the Holy Quran. There is no higher noble cause of justice or peace other than what Islam has already enjoined upon humanity. There is no higher belief or theology or mode of prayer other than what Islam has already given us, etc., etc.

The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt. (2:147)
 
i don't think islam is wrong or false.
but i refuse to accept that there is only one way to god. but then, obviously, if i felt as you do, i wouldn't be an agnostic - i would be a muslim!
 
There is a saying of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Sall Allahu alaihi wa sala'am) to the effect that the path to Allah is straight (Siratul Mustaqeem), but that every other path which people are tempted to take are diversions from the straight path. He proceeded to draw in the sand a straight line (Siratul Mustaqeem) and then he drew several horizontal lines on each side of the straight line, which represent the many different paths which Iblis (Beelzebub) invites man towards. Only the straight path leads to salvation, the crooked paths, no matter how close their angle is to 90 degrees will all ultimately lead to destruction.
 
well, to an outsider - this is the same as the christian saying there is only one way and that is to believe in jesus. both claim to have exclusive possession of The Truth.
i understand your belief. i just don't share it.
 
Talha777 said:
There is a saying of Holy Prophet Muhammad (Sall Allahu alaihi wa sala'am) to the effect that the path to Allah is straight (Siratul Mustaqeem), but that every other path which people are tempted to take are diversions from the straight path. He proceeded to draw in the sand a straight line (Siratul Mustaqeem) and then he drew several horizontal lines on each side of the straight line, which represent the many different paths which Iblis (Beelzebub) invites man towards. Only the straight path leads to salvation, the crooked paths, no matter how close their angle is to 90 degrees will all ultimately lead to destruction.
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But surely you can see that that amounts to no more than "the 'truth' I believe in is right while the 'truth' other people believe in is wrong". There is no more reason for someone not of your faith to believe your version is right than somebody else's.

The only approach that makes any sense to me is to assume that the religious experience, if not the details, must be much the same for everybody. Everybody is seeking the same thing, and so ultimately must do much the same things to find it; that's why I think such claimed monopolies are a little absurd. If one particular religion was so obviously 'right' then there would only be one religion.
 
But surely you can see that that amounts to no more than "the 'truth' I believe in is right while the 'truth' other people believe in is wrong". There is no more reason for someone not of your faith to believe your version is right than somebody else's.
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First of all, though Islam is nothing but the Truth, I do not deny that some religions, such as Christianity, contain some truth, but overall are saturated in falsehood. Beliefs should be logical and rational, and only Islam as a whole fits this criterion. Other religions are by and large unverifiable and their respective adherents believe in them blindly. Our belief in the Holy Quran, which contains so many prophecies, many of which have been fulfilled, and our belief in the Holy Prophet (Sall Allahu alaihi wa salaam), who performed heavenly miracles testified to by so many eye witnesses that cannot be explained away other than that they were from Allah, are obviously not based on "blind faith".

The only approach that makes any sense to me is to assume that the religious experience, if not the details, must be much the same for everybody. Everybody is seeking the same thing, and so ultimately must do much the same things to find it; that's why I think such claimed monopolies are a little absurd. If one particular religion was so obviously 'right' then there would only be one religion.
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The religious experience is NOT the same for everybody. If you are practicing any number of the false religions, your so called "experience" is hollow and of no peculiar substance. But the religious experience of Islamic worship is unique in that it is true communion with Almighty Allah (Subhana wa Taala). The answering of prayers from Allah Taala and the numerous examples of faith healings and inspirational dreams which are the common religious experiences of the Believers cannot be reproduced among the disbelievers. The disbelievers' prayers are not answered and they have no relation with Allah whatsoever:

Regarding the gods and deities which the non-Muslims worship, Allah says about them:

If ye invoke them, they will not listen to your call, and if they were to listen, they cannot answer your (prayer). On the Day of Judgment they will reject your "Partnership". and none, (O man!) can tell thee (the Truth) like the One Who is acquainted with all things. (35:14)

*A small point on "if they were to listen", this is referring to those false gods which people worship who are in fact human beings or other creation of Allah which has faculty of hearing, but are still not divine or share power with Allah.

On the other hand, Allah says regarding the Believers's supplication to Him:

And your Lord says: "Call on Me; I will answer your (prayer) (40:60)

Now regarding your contention that if one particular religion is right there would only be one religion. This is an illogical and invalid argument. To any question there can be a number of given answers, but that does not mean all of the answers are correct. Islam was the original religion revealed to Adam (alaihi salaam). Many religions such as Christianity or Judaism may have their roots in Islam, but in fact they are heretical deviations from the original Islam. Other religions are completely manmade and therefore cannot even claim to say they follow the Truth. For example, today's neopaganism and wicca cults were introduced out of a desire to formulate in a "matriarchal" religion as an act of defiance against the "patriarchy" in traditional religion. Whatever the merits of formulating such a religion are, the fact remains that such religions come from the ideas of mankind and are not divinely revealed. You yourself according to your profile claim to be a Buddhists, but traditional Therevada Buddhism does not even believe in God or have a concept of the Divine, and therefore has no objective truth. Everything in Buddhism is subjective. Buddhism is therefore not even a religion but basically a school of psychology. Any and every of the "religious experiences" its follows claim to have are nothing but psychological phenomena. On the other hand, the religious experiences of Muslims cannot be explained other than that they are from Allah.
 

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