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Uthman
04-05-2007, 09:06 AM
The government is planning to intervene in some mosques to support Muslims who want to marginalise extremists.

Communities Secretary Ruth Kelly will announce a new role for the Charity Commission, strengthening its task of overseeing religious institutions.

A £600,000 faith unit within the commission will help Muslims strengthen governance and leadership in mosques.

Ministers are also changing how prosecutors target extremists, with new specialist counter-terrorism teams.

The plans are part of the government's broader counter-terrorism strategy.

In February, ministers announced support for pilot projects to root out
Islamist extremists grooming young men in British cities.
Ruth Kelly: Meeting more Muslim groups

In a speech on Thursday, Ruth Kelly is expected to say: "I do not under-estimate the difficulties we face or the scale of this challenge. But I know from my conversations with Muslim communities up and down the country that the desire and commitment to tackle extremism is there.

"Success will hinge on forging a new alliance against violent extremism. We need to reach out and give greater support to the overwhelming majority who are disgusted by terrorist attacks carried out in the name of Islam."

Ms Kelly's department has changed government strategy by launching talks with a broader range of Muslim groups.

But at the same time, the largest body, the Muslim Council of Britain, has fallen out of favour, leading to claims that ministers are talking only to those prepared to agree with government.

Prosecutions move


In a related move, the Attorney General Lord Goldsmith said specialist prosecutors are beginning to work with police officers to improve how they target extremist preachers.

"For some time I have been concerned that we have not taken sufficiently effective action against a very small minority of extremists among our communities who incite others to terrorism," said Lord Goldsmith.

"By bringing together the law enforcement agencies and the prosecutors we now have a commitment to tackle these cases in an effective, focused and well co-ordinated way and the structures to enable that to happen."

New study

The strategy is part of the government's attempts to develop a plan to prevent extremism, a key plank of counter-terrorism policy.

New research commissioned by the government links radicalisation of young Muslims with a failure of traditional mosque leadership.

The study, written by a Muslim academic, is understood to pinpoint a conveyor belt towards extremism which starts with identity crises during teenager years. These problems are then easily compounded by discrimination, lack of opportunity and the poor quality of religious leadership in some traditional mosques.

The BBC understands the research warns the government that extremist groups successfully recruit by exploiting a combination of alienation and religious illiteracy among youths.

But at the same time, the report predicts that a positive British-Islam voice can emerge to defeat extremists, if there is investment in religious leadership.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6528305.stm
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Keltoi
04-05-2007, 01:29 PM
Good strategy. Extremism of any kind preys on young people who are more easily manipulated. It won't end extremism, but if it stops one person from committing suicide for a an extremist group it has done its job.
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SirZubair
04-05-2007, 09:37 PM
'jesus camp' comes to mind when i think of 'extemists'.
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wilberhum
04-05-2007, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
'jesus camp' comes to mind when i think of 'extemists'.
Truly, they are an extremists group. There political agenda scares me.
But at least they don't encourage suicide attacks.
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siFilam
04-05-2007, 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Truly, they are an extremists group. There political agenda scares me.
But at least they don't encourage suicide attacks.
They don't have to. They have ppl in Washington to do it for them and spread propaganda to legitimize it.


-SI-
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wilberhum
04-05-2007, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam
They don't have to. They have ppl in Washington to do it for them and spread propaganda to legitimize it.


-SI-
So what do you think should be done to the Washington extreamists?
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siFilam
04-05-2007, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
So what do you think should be done to the Washington extreamists?
Muslims need to stay united on the path of Qur'an and Sunnah (Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah). Guard ourselves against
1) The innovators who seek to disunite the Muslims and destroy the true Islamic creed
2) Hypocrite Muslims who desire to live like the disbelievers and bend Islam to fit into their lifestyle
3) all the disbelievers and polythesists.

How should we guard ourselves:
1) 3:103 And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you;
2) 3:132 And obey Allah and the Messenger. that ye may obtain mercy.
Basically guard your self by holding on to the teachings of Qur’an and Sunnah.
And Allah knows best.
-SI-
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wilberhum
04-05-2007, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam
Muslims need to stay united on the path of Qur'an and Sunnah (Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah). Guard ourselves against
1) The innovators who seek to disunite the Muslims and destroy the true Islamic creed
2) Hypocrite Muslims who desire to live like the disbelievers and bend Islam to fit into their lifestyle
3) all the disbelievers and polythesists.

How should we guard ourselves:
1) 3:103 And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you;
2) 3:132 And obey Allah and the Messenger. that ye may obtain mercy.
Basically guard your self by holding on to the teachings of Qur’an and Sunnah.
And Allah knows best.
-SI-
But what do non-Muslims need to do to stop extreamism?
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siFilam
04-05-2007, 10:31 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
But what do non-Muslims need to do to stop extreamism?
stop trying to spread your ideology in the middle east and other Muslim regions and preventing us from establishing Shariah.

-SI-
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wilberhum
04-05-2007, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam
stop trying to spread your ideology in the middle east and other Muslim regions and preventing us from establishing Shariah.

-SI-
I hope we do stop trying to spread our ideology.
But how do we prevent you from establishing Shariah?
You have Iran, SA and many more. It seams that is a Muslim problem.
Do you think if we stop spreading our ideology, extreamists will stop trying to spread theres?
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siFilam
04-05-2007, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I hope we do stop trying to spread our ideology.
But how do we prevent you from establishing Shariah?
You have Iran, SA and many more. It seams that is a Muslim problem.
Iran doesn't count b/c they are people of innovation. and I honestly don't know too much about SA to comment because I hear mix informations. Non-Muslim countries are preventing the establishment of Shariah by pressuring Muslim officials into meeting their demands and installing puppet governments. and yes its a Muslim problem too because these Muslim give into their demands. They lack knowledge about Islam and follow their vain desire. they are too weak to follow the Shariah. example Iraqi and Afghanistani officials. tell me, how much progress did these country make?

Originally Posted by wilberhum
Do you think if we stop spreading our ideology, extreamists will stop trying to spread theres?
Allah knows best. I hope so at least cause they're not following the path of our Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him).

-SI-
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wilberhum
04-05-2007, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam
Iran doesn't count b/c they are people of innovation. and I honestly don't know too much about SA to comment because I hear mix informations. Non-Muslim countries are preventing the establishment of Shariah by pressuring Muslim officials into meeting their demands and installing puppet governments. and yes its a Muslim problem too because these Muslim give into their demands. They lack knowledge about Islam and follow their vain desire. they are too weak to follow the Shariah. example Iraqi and Afghanistani officials. tell me, how much progress did these country?


Allah knows best. I hope so at least cause they're not following the path of our Messenger (peace and blessings be upon him).

-SI-
Well you should go get Iran on the right path. :raging:
But other than that all Muslims problems are caused by the non-Muslims.
Interesting. :skeleton:
I guess you can ignore reality all you want. :D
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siFilam
04-05-2007, 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Well you should go get Iran on the right path. :raging:
But other than that all Muslims problems are caused by the non-Muslims.
Interesting. :skeleton:
I guess you can ignore reality all you want. :D
If u read my post correctly you'll notice that I said that its a Muslim problem too. Some Muslims chose to deviate and follow the ways of the non-Muslims.

and Iran.....if u only understood the extent of their innovations. :cry:

-SI-
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wilberhum
04-05-2007, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by siFilam
If u read my post correctly you'll notice that I said that its a Muslim problem too. Some Muslims chose to deviate and follow the ways of the non-Muslims.

and Iran.....if u only understood the extent of their innovations. :cry:

-SI-
So the problem is non-Muslims and Muslims that act like non-Muslims.
Interesting.
So if all non-Muslims were eliminated so that Muslims woud not have non-Muslims to act like, the world would be perfect.
A very interesting way of thinking.
I was thinking how perfect the world would be if only the West existed.
No not really. Just thought I would throw that in.
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SirZubair
04-05-2007, 11:37 PM
Speaking of establishing Shariah.... it is not possible until a khalifah has been established. A khalifah cannot be established until the Ummah unites, because like i said,... A khalifah, not a dozen. the Salafis wont accept a Sufi Khalifah, Sufis wont accept a Salafi khalifah, Sunnis wont accept a Shia khalifah, Shias won't accept a Sunni khalifah.... and we can't have a dozen khalifahs at one time.

So lets stop dreaming :) Establishing a Khalifah/ living life according to the shariah rules is not possible in this time and age.

As for the Saudi establishing Shariah rules,... Pffft.. Saudi is a joke.
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siFilam
04-05-2007, 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
So if all non-Muslims were eliminated so that Muslims woud not have non-Muslims to act like, the world would be perfect.
A very interesting way of thinking.
Can u show me where in my posts I advocated the elimination of the non-Muslims or even implicitly stated such un-Islamic things? If you can show me and I see that I really did make such comments than I will apologize because that is not the way of our religion. If you can’t show me than next time read all the posts at least 10x before ignorantly making any comments. And I think you wanted me to say such things so you can criticize Islam more.

Originally Posted by wilberhum
I was thinking how perfect the world would be if only the West existed.
No not really. Just thought I would throw that in.
No, I honestly think you would like that. No Muslims.

-SI-
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SirZubair
04-05-2007, 11:39 PM
How many times has the west been at war with itself?

This is not a trick question.

Right now the 'middle east' is the enemy, if the middle east/muslims ceased existing, the west would be back to killing its own.

One way or another, peace in the west is a long shot.
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siFilam
04-05-2007, 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Speaking of establishing Shariah.... it is not possible until a khalifah has been established. A khalifah cannot be established until the Ummah unites, because like i said,... A khalifah, not a dozen. the Salafis wont accept a Sufi Khalifah, Sufis wont accept a Salafi khalifah, Sunnis wont accept a Shia khalifah, Shias won't accept a Sunni khalifah.... and we can't have a dozen khalifahs at one time.
The individual Muslim countries can appoint a Khalifah for their country and establish a real Shariah. It doesn't have to be one Khalifah for the entire Muslim Ummah. But unfortunately you have Muslims who are too weak to follow the Shariah, some are hypocrites and others simply want to enjoy their temporary life in this world by acquiring status, wealth and power. even more unfortunate is that Muslims are ignorant of their religion and they support these people and appoint them for leadership positions. on the other side you have the non-muslim who support these people. :cry: Its sad state that we are in.

and Allah knows best.

-SI-
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akulion
04-05-2007, 11:50 PM
they should begin by banning organizations like the KKK and Neo Nazis
then talk about the rest - i mean begin with the OBIVIOUS extremists and hate mongers
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wilberhum
04-06-2007, 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
How many times has the west been at war with itself?

This is not a trick question.

Right now the 'middle east' is the enemy, if the middle east/muslims ceased existing, the west would be back to killing its own.

One way or another, peace in the west is a long shot.
Kind of just like the East.
There are always people that want war.
East, West, there are war mungers in both places.
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Keltoi
04-06-2007, 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by akulion
they should begin by banning organizations like the KKK and Neo Nazis
then talk about the rest - i mean begin with the OBIVIOUS extremists and hate mongers
The KKK and the Neo-Nazis are allowed to say what they want, they are not allowed to do what they want. The primary danger of extremism is in extremist action. At this point in history, the KKK and Neo-Nazi groups promote hate through speech, not violence, at least for the most part.
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SirZubair
04-06-2007, 03:15 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Kind of just like the East.
There are always people that want war.
East, West, there are war mungers in both places.
Whats your suggestion on that issue? We put a dictator like Bush in power (just as Sadam was ) to keep the peace in the east?

Well,...THAT is the case right now, and its not working too well.
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siFilam
04-06-2007, 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
East, West, there are war mungers in both places.
I agree with him and I can't believe I just did. there r devils on both sides advocating violence although I think there are more on the West than east.

-SI-
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siFilam
04-06-2007, 03:25 AM
:salamext:
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Whats your suggestion on that issue? We put a dictator like Bush in power (just as Sadam was ) to keep the peace in the east?

Well,...THAT is the case right now, and its not working too well.
There is no comprehensive peace until Islamic Shariah reigns and righteous people are in charge of leadership.

Wasalam
-SI-
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Cognescenti
04-06-2007, 04:53 AM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Whats your suggestion on that issue? We put a dictator like Bush in power (just as Sadam was ) to keep the peace in the east?

Well,...THAT is the case right now, and its not working too well.

"Dictator"???? Maybe you should add some vitamin "O" for "objectivity" in your diet.

I have to say I am getting a bit anxious that chaps who think like you are all over the place...New Zealand, Canada, New York..the UK. I'm not talking about Islam, either...I am talking about virulent hatred.
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-06-2007, 07:15 AM
I think we need bi-polar world again, one world power doesn't work out, we need a balance
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snakelegs
04-06-2007, 07:33 AM
Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
I think we need bi-polar world again, one world power doesn't work out, we need a balance
i agree! and who would have ever thought we would miss the soviet union!?
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siFilam
04-06-2007, 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i agree! and who would have ever thought we would miss the soviet union!?
I don't miss the soviet union. As Muslims we need to reclaim our religion and bring this much needed balance.
But who am I kidding, we're going further down as days goes by. :cry:

wasalam
-SI-
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snakelegs
04-06-2007, 08:06 AM
don't you think it was a safer world when there were 2 super-powers to balance each other and hold each other in check, (even tho there were proxy wars)? i do. even though i was no admirer of the soviet union.
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siFilam
04-06-2007, 08:14 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
don't you think it was a safer world when there were 2 super-powers to balance each other and hold each other in check, (even tho there were proxy wars)? i do. even though i was no admirer of the soviet union.
I think I wasn't clear. 2 super power might do the job, Allah knows best. But not soviet union again, but in its a place a true Islamic country.
Allah knows best.

-SI-
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SirZubair
04-06-2007, 09:29 AM
Edit : *Sigh* nevermind. I am not in the mood to make anyone cry. Not even someone who thinks he has 'figured' me out by reading one of my posts.
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akulion
04-06-2007, 11:32 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
The KKK and the Neo-Nazis are allowed to say what they want, they are not allowed to do what they want. The primary danger of extremism is in extremist action. At this point in history, the KKK and Neo-Nazi groups promote hate through speech, not violence, at least for the most part.
irrespective I think all extremist groups should be banned
Hate whether verbal or in actions is wrong and leads to animosity between people which as a result may lead to violence
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Pygoscelis
04-06-2007, 11:45 AM
I'm all in favour of Muslims marginalizing the nasty faction within Islam and making it "not muslim" in the public eye.

But this part of the article is a bit alarming

Originally Posted by Osman
Communities Secretary Ruth Kelly will announce a new role for the Charity Commission, strengthening its task of overseeing religious institutions.
The Charity Commision? What is that? Is this part of that "faith based initiative" garbage? Charities should exist for the SOLE purpose of charity and charities with any religion attached to them should get zero public funding.

Charity with a "message" attached is brainwashing, plain and simple, and very ugly brainwashing at that. I don't want to see the public purse funding the religious exploitation of desperate people.
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Cognescenti
04-06-2007, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by SirZubair
Edit : *Sigh* nevermind. I am not in the mood to make anyone cry. Not even someone who thinks he has 'figured' me out by reading one of my posts.
You may be right. I may have misjudged you after two posts. After all, "dictator" does have more than one meaning. If by "dictator" you meant that the democratically elected President of the longest surviving democracy (excluding a few Swiss Cantons) in the world prefers to "dictate" letters rather than write them by hand, I humbly apologize.
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Talha777
04-06-2007, 04:17 PM
It doesn't have to be one Khalifah for the entire Muslim Ummah.
This is totally false. There can only be one khalifa for all the Muslims. Huzoor (Sall Allahu alaihi wa salaam) said that if there are two ameers with whom the people have taken bayat, than the second ameer should be killed.

Iran is the only Islamic state I know of, and there are dozens and dozens of Muslim states, which means we have a lot of work to do. Our eventual goal should be the erasing of all borders between Muslim majority regions and the establishment of one khilafat. The immediate obstacle to this noble goal is Western hegemony over the Muslims.
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Uthman
04-06-2007, 04:22 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Talha777
Huzoor (Sall Allahu alaihi wa salaam) said that if there are two ameers with whom the people have taken bayat, than the second ameer should be killed.

Sister, where did he say this? Is it in a hadith? Can I have a reference?


:w:
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Talha777
04-06-2007, 04:46 PM
Sister, where did he say this? Is it in a hadith? Can I have a reference?
I am not a sister.

"It was the duty of every Prophet that has gone before me to guide his followers to what he knew was good for them and warn them against what he knew was bad for them; but this Ummah of yours has its days of peace and (security) in the beginning of its career, and in the last phase of its existence it will be afflicted with trials and with things disagreeable to you. (In this phase of the Umma), there will be tremendous trials one after the other, each making the previous one dwindle into insignificance. When they would be afflicted with a trial, the believer would say: This is going to bring about my destruction. When at (the trial) is over, they would be afflicted with another trial, and the believer would say: This surely is going to be my end. Whoever wishes to be delivered from the fire and enter the garden should die with faith in Allaah and the Last Day and should treat the people as he wishes to be treated by them. He who swears allegiance to a Caliph should give him the pledge of his hand and the sincerity of his heart (i. e. submit to him both outwardly as well as inwardly). He should obey him to the best of his capacity. If another man comes forward (as a claimant to Caliphate), disputing his authority, they (the Muslims) should behead the latter." (Sahih Muslim, Book of Government)
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Uthman
04-06-2007, 04:48 PM
:sl:

Sorry, Brother. And thanks for posting it.

:w:
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Cognescenti
04-06-2007, 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
This is totally false. There can only be one khalifa for all the Muslims. Huzoor (Sall Allahu alaihi wa salaam) said that if there are two ameers with whom the people have taken bayat, than the second ameer should be killed.

Iran is the only Islamic state I know of, and there are dozens and dozens of Muslim states, which means we have a lot of work to do. Our eventual goal should be the erasing of all borders between Muslim majority regions and the establishment of one khilafat. The immediate obstacle to this noble goal is Western hegemony over the Muslims.

"Western hegemony" :rollseyes As my grandmother might have said in this circumstance...."Gracious sakey day".

Talha...are you looking for work after you got laid off as Chairman Mao's speech writer? "Hegemeony"??

If there is a caliphate deficiency in the Muslim world right now it is not the fault of "Westerners". What do you propose to do with the Sunni/Shia split? On the small scale, when the Brits began pulling out of Basra the Mahdi Army types began fighting other Shia. The problem won't be two emirs...it will be 200 emirs. There will have to be a whole lotta beheadin' goin' on, it seems. You might have more luck hoping for a time machine to take you back a dozen centuries or so to the last caliphate.
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SirZubair
04-06-2007, 07:05 PM
Tell your grandmother to put a sock in it.

Having said that, keep an eye on her, we don't want her to choke or nothing like that...
you on the other hand........
If there is a caliphate deficiency in the Muslim world right now it is not the fault of "Westerners".
No, it is not completely the fault of the West. Partly, yes it is.

what do you propose to do with the Sunni/Shia split?
Get 'your' troops out of there to begin with, and then let the Sunnis and Shias sort out their problems. Their problems are nothing to do with the west, so the west should stick their beaks out of it.

Go on, entertain me again by telling me how much virulent hatred i have in my heart. I'll go and get the popcorn ready.
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Talha777
04-06-2007, 07:08 PM
Bravo brother Zubair. We should all be more bold to tell these non-Muslims they have no business meddling in our affairs.
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SirZubair
04-06-2007, 07:19 PM
What i find to be really funny (actually, it is Not funny at all), When a Shaykh/Imam makes a statement in a Non-muslim country ( For example, Shaykh Taj, The Mufti Of Australiasia ) he is bombarded with hate mail, the media hunts him down like a pig to the extent that he ended up in hospital because of the amount of stress that he was piled under because the media had taken his statements out of context and presented it to the world in such a way that he was made out to be a sexist prick.

A Muslim scholar cannot even express his views in a non-muslim country without being crapped all over.

Yet,... The U.S.A military invades ( oh sorry... 'liberates' ) 2 Muslim Countries. When we oppose their invasion, we have people coming online, on muslim forums, telling us how to go about our business.

And then he crosses the line and tells me what i have in my heart. :rollseyes Well, he was waaaay off the mark.

I can say for sure he has crap for brains.
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Talha777
04-06-2007, 07:21 PM
I fully agree with what Shaikh Hilali of Australia said, and sincerely wish he didn't retract his statements. We need to become brave enough not to be intimidated by non-Muslims.
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SirZubair
04-06-2007, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
I fully agree with what Shaikh Hilali of Australia said, and sincerely wish he didn't retract his statements. We need to become brave enough not to be intimidated by non-Muslims.
http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...-up-truth.html

He did not retract his statements :) He simply explained what he was getting at.
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noodles
04-06-2007, 07:31 PM
I'm going to play nice here, but my question here is to non-muslims.

How many of you have actually listened to the sermons being delivered on Fridays?

I bet most of you haven't heard a single one.

The media in effect seizes every opportunity to make itself shine. It feeds on the on people that find these conflicts interesting. I should say, I find it interesting how every one of you Quotes newspapers and articles online, but not a single one of you have provided a link to a recorded sermon delivered by an Imam/Sheikh that is labeled as an "extremist"
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Pygoscelis
04-06-2007, 07:41 PM
I fully endorse taking the rabid and violent fundamentalists of all stripes (Muslim, Christian, Nationalist, Racist, KKK, etc) and locking them all in the same room together. They all by definition hate each other, so we can expect some great entertainment. We can sell tickets and Pay Per View rights and fund the reconstruction of Iraq.

Whaddyasay?
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noodles
04-06-2007, 08:55 PM
In all seriousness, one who are defending the west, do answer this part of the Question.

Originally Posted by noodles View Post
I'm going to play nice here, but my question here is to non-muslims.

How many of you have actually listened to the sermons being delivered on Fridays?

I bet most of you haven't heard a single one.

The media in effect seizes every opportunity to make itself shine. It feeds on the on people that find these conflicts interesting. I should say, I find it interesting how every one of you Quotes newspapers and articles online, but not a single one of you have provided a link to a recorded sermon delivered by an Imam/Sheikh that is labeled as an "extremist"
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Talha777
04-07-2007, 03:29 AM
You obviously haven't seen a lot of Friday sermons. These kinds of topics are very basic, they may be frequent in places in the West where people are new to Islam and need to know such basic things. There's nothing wrong with bringing up political issues at a Friday sermon, Islam is a political religion, because politics has a major effect on morality and spirituality.
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Cognescenti
04-07-2007, 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777
You obviously haven't seen a lot of Friday sermons. These kinds of topics are very basic, they may be frequent in places in the West where people are new to Islam and need to know such basic things. There's nothing wrong with bringing up political issues at a Friday sermon, Islam is a political religion, because politics has a major effect on morality and spirituality.
Fair enough...but it is one thing to advocate against abortion or against war or in favor of greater government support for the poor etc., etc. These topics all have both political and moral or social justice features. It is quite another matter to call for violence or to defame an entire country or an entire religion....oh...I don't know...let's say for eg., Judaism. That hardly seems a spiritual issue to me. For eg., in the intifada, in Palestine, Friday always seems to be a bad day. If the speaker demonizes Jews and whips the "worshipers" into a violent frenzy, how, exactly, is that furthering the cause of Islam? In the PBS documentary, the sermons were clearly being used to incite anger (chiefly against Israel and US support for Israel) in order to stir the passions of the "worshipers" and then, at the end, there would be a call for donations. It was baldy manipulative, the kind of things a general might say to his troops on the eve of battle. Jingoism...demonizing an opponent...etc etc. Keep in mind, these were mosques in the US.

This kind of thing has no place in a house of worship, in my opinion.
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Muezzin
04-07-2007, 02:38 PM
I don't know about the US, but all the mosques I've gone to for Friday prayers in the UK hardly mention politics, and if they do, it's to pray to help our brothers in Palestine, Iraq, etc (in the context of, 'Please God, don't let them die, stop their suffering', rather than 'pls God, kill da enemies!!!111One LOLZ')

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I fully endorse taking the rabid and violent fundamentalists of all stripes (Muslim, Christian, Nationalist, Racist, KKK, etc) and locking them all in the same room together. They all by definition hate each other, so we can expect some great entertainment. We can sell tickets and Pay Per View rights and fund the reconstruction of Iraq.

Whaddyasay?
Chuck in Hulk Hogan and Mr T for added entertainment, and we've got a deal!

(note: neither Hulk Hogan or Mr T are violent extremists, it would just be fun to see them open a can of whupass on crazy violent people hiding behind religion)
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Talha777
04-07-2007, 06:12 PM
Fair enough...but it is one thing to advocate against abortion or against war or in favor of greater government support for the poor etc., etc. These topics all have both political and moral or social justice features. It is quite another matter to call for violence or to defame an entire country or an entire religion....oh...I don't know...let's say for eg., Judaism. That hardly seems a spiritual issue to me. For eg., in the intifada, in Palestine, Friday always seems to be a bad day. If the speaker demonizes Jews and whips the "worshipers" into a violent frenzy, how, exactly, is that furthering the cause of Islam? In the PBS documentary, the sermons were clearly being used to incite anger (chiefly against Israel and US support for Israel) in order to stir the passions of the "worshipers" and then, at the end, there would be a call for donations. It was baldy manipulative, the kind of things a general might say to his troops on the eve of battle. Jingoism...demonizing an opponent...etc etc. Keep in mind, these were mosques in the US.

This kind of thing has no place in a house of worship, in my opinion.

Calling for war is justified if it is a just war. Islam is not a pacifist religion, we don't believe in turning the other cheek. We believe that the recompense of an injury is an injury the like thereof. We believe in self-defense and if that is what is being advocated in the mosques, I have no problem with it.

In Palestine, as you are mentioning, it is non-Muslims who happen to be Jews who are massacring Muslims en masse. Muslims cannot stand idly by and let these people go on a killing rampage. We believe in justice and truth, we believe that state of israel was established without our consent on our land, and we have the right to oppose it and to destroy it, and we will, insha Allah. We are not evil hate-mongers, we believe in peace, truth, and justice, and we will prevail, by the grace of our Lord.

It doesn't matter where the mosques are, our Holy Prophet (salallahu alaihi wa salaam) said that the community of believers is like a body, if one part is in pain, the entire body feels the effects. For us religion takes precedence over all worldly affairs, over all national, racial, ethnic, and tribal identities.
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arabiyyah
04-07-2007, 06:36 PM
Originally Posted by Talha777

Pacifist means someone who rejects violence under all circumstances. Gandhi is considered the epitome of a pacifism. But few people know that because of Gandhi's pacifist principles he opposed World War II against Nazi Germany. He said that the Jews and other victims of the Nazis should have peaceful nonviolent resistance against them. In my opinion, pacifism is not something positive, it is something which is greatly immoral. If you consider Islam not being pacifist a bad thing, I wander what you think of America, which is unprovokingly attacking innocent unarmed Muslims and massacring innocent children.
Now I request that wilberhum's above post be removed by the admins. Jazak Allah khair.
Well if the whole world was pacifist what would the world be? Peaceful. If the world acted the way you would, what would the whole world be? I am pretty sure gone from Nuclear war.
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Talha777
04-07-2007, 06:42 PM
Well if the whole world was pacifist what would the world be? Peaceful. If the world acted the way you would, what would the whole world be? I am pretty sure gone from Nuclear war.
If the whole world believed in peace and self-defense when necessary the world would be peaceful. If part of the world believed in violence to further their evil agenda (i.e. the West), and part of the world believed in unconditional nonviolence (the Muslims), would there be peace? One side would take advantage of the other and there would be grave injustice in the world. Peace is not just the absence of war and violence, peace is the absence of injustice and a threat of war. This is the type of peace which Islam advocates. Unconditional nonviolence in the face of the Western military onslaught is immoral and evil.
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Muezzin
04-07-2007, 08:07 PM
Rightio. Can we all get back to discussing the story in the first post? People tend to get shirty when I delete dozens of their posts in one swoop.
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Cognescenti
04-07-2007, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Rightio. Can we all get back to discussing the story in the first post? People tend to get shirty when I delete dozens of their posts in one swoop.
Wait..you don't think a discussion of "extremist" sermons is germane to the original article..which was about extremist speech. :-)
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Woodrow
04-08-2007, 06:40 AM
Please stay on the original topic.
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wilberhum
04-08-2007, 06:51 AM
Originally Posted by Talha777

I hate the lifestyle of my homeland.



Why?

A word of advice, stop being racist and xenophobic. You need to move to Denmark.
Why do I need to move to Denmark? I do think Denmark is better than the US, but the US is home and I love it.
Why am I a racist, is the "I hate you" group a race? . I don't even know what race you are.
Xenophobic? I welcome every one, if they are legal, and don't hate us.
I don’t hate you, you hate us, that’s why I would like to see you leave.
You are all over this form preaching hate. You are a sad sick person who needs serious help. Your hate will destroy you and make you nothing but a miserable person.

If you don’t learn to control your hate, it will destroy you.

Please seek help.
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