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MTAFFI
04-16-2007, 08:30 PM
Since 2001 suicide bombings, mass graves, executions, abductions, car bombs and other methods of indiscriminate killing have been heavily reported in the news world wide. The extremely vast majority of these outrageous attacks have been made by Muslim people, often labeled as radical, extreme or otherwise by the media and different governments. I have personally followed much of this conflict as I feel it affects everyone whether they be in Iraq, Afghanistan or the US or China for that matter, the death of another human should, at least, affect us all.

The real problem that I have with this is as of yet there has not been any real public outcry by the Muslim community to stop these heinous acts of violence. Sure, there are forums out there and there are a couple of news agencies who have quoted Imams and scholars and other religious figures as saying simply Islam doesnt condone violence, but there has not been any "real" action or attempt to curb this violence and make it known to the world that this is not the Islamic way, which I believe is in a very large part why these attacks continue each day.

I know that the Muslim community in general is not bad and does not vocally condone this behavior, but not saying anything in the state of the world today, to me, is as bad as promoting it as the right thing to do. In fact, I would venture to say that their are more people promoting this twisted form of "jihad" than those who are actually speaking out or acting out against it. This is where I believe the source of the problem is, without the Muslim community in full support of stopping this violence it will never stop. There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, why do none speak up? Your brothers and sisters, Muslim and non Muslim, are dying every day and for what? What is being accomplished? Our children see this violence and no one is saying it is wrong, what do you think they will grow up to do? Is that what you wish for our children and their children? I personally do not.

Many may say that, for example, Christianity is not free from violence or indiscriminate killing and this is very true. In fact, it is true for any group, organization or otherwise to have some bad seeds, but it is the responsiblity of that group to distance themselves and set themselves apart from those commiting the atrocites. Take the KKK for example, they claimed to be a Christian group, however the Christians denounced their acts of hatred and publicly excommunicated anyone associated with them from the church. The were likened with the devil and eventually lost all authority, support and power, and what was once a group of over 1 million people is today a mere 3,000. That is the power of the voice and a group of people banning together to rid the world of something like this.

I would like to ask Muslims to protest, nonviolently, against the violent and life ending actions taken by the people in places like Iraq, speak with your religious leaders about speaking publicly to news stations and the media to show not only the rest of the world, but those committing these attacks that it is not Islam and that you will not be associated with such stupidity and lack of respect for human life.

PEACE
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Muezzin
04-16-2007, 09:46 PM
Perfectly valid observations and criticisms.

I agree more imams need to come out and make themselves heard. I also think, simultaneously, we as Muslims should continue to teach our children that the kind of mindless violence terrorists reap is completely wrong.

We can all do our part simply by being good people, and explaining to others that the terrorists who hide behind Islam are unjustified when they attack civilians. That sort of thing goes completely against Islam.
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جوري
04-16-2007, 10:24 PM
A more truthful account by Robert Fisk receiver of the "British Press Awards"

I believe any civil unrest or bombing, or chaos has America written on it!

Seen through a Syrian lens, 'unknown Americans' are provoking civil war in Iraq
By Robert Fisk - 28 April 2006

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...icle360624.ece

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12885.htm

In Syria, the world appears through a glass, darkly. As dark as the smoked windows of the car which takes me to a building on the western side of Damascus where a man I have known for 15 years - we shall call him a "security source", which is the name given by American correspondents to their own powerful intelligence officers - waits with his own ferocious narrative of disaster in Iraq and dangers in the Middle East.

His is a fearful portrait of an America trapped in the bloody sands of Iraq, desperately trying to provoke a civil war around Baghdad in order to reduce its own military casualties. It is a scenario in which Saddam Hussein remains Washington's best friend, in which Syria has struck at the Iraqi insurgents with a ruthlessness that the United States wilfully ignores. And in which Syria's Interior Minister, found shot dead in his office last year, committed suicide because of his own mental instability.

The Americans, my interlocutor suspected, are trying to provoke an Iraqi civil war so that Sunni Muslim insurgents spend their energies killing their Shia co-religionists rather than soldiers of the Western occupation forces. "I swear to you that we have very good information," my source says, finger stabbing the air in front of him. "One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up."

Impossible, I think to myself. But then I remember how many times Iraqis in Baghdad have told me similar stories. These reports are believed even if they seem unbelievable. And I know where much of the Syrian information is gleaned: from the tens of thousands of Shia Muslim pilgrims who come to pray at the Sayda Zeinab mosque outside Damascus. These men and women come from the slums of Baghdad, Hillah and Iskandariyah as well as the cities of Najaf and Basra. Sunnis from Fallujah and Ramadi also visit Damascus to see friends and relatives and talk freely of American tactics in Iraq.

"There was another man, trained by the Americans for the police. He too was given a mobile and told to drive to an area where there was a crowd - maybe a protest - and to call them and tell them what was happening. Again, his new mobile was not working. So he went to a landline phone and called the Americans and told them: 'Here I am, in the place you sent me and I can tell you what's happening here.' And at that moment there was a big explosion in his car."

Just who these "Americans" might be, my source did not say. In the anarchic and panic-stricken world of Iraq, there are many US groups - including countless outfits supposedly working for the American military and the new Western-backed Iraqi Interior Ministry - who operate outside any laws or rules. No one can account for the murder of 191 university teachers and professors since the 2003 invasion - nor the fact that more than 50 former Iraqi fighter-bomber pilots who attacked Iran in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war have been assassinated in their home towns in Iraq in the past three years.

Amid this chaos, a colleague of my source asked me, how could Syria be expected to lessen the number of attacks on Americans inside Iraq? "It was never safe, our border," he said. "During Saddam's time, criminals and Saddam's terrorists crossed our borders to attack our government. I built a wall of earth and sand along the border at that time. But three car bombs from Saddam's agents exploded in Damascus and Tartous- I was the one who captured the criminals responsible. But we couldn't stop them."

Now, he told me, the rampart running for hundreds of miles along Syria's border with Iraq had been heightened. "I have had barbed wire put on top and up to now we have caught 1,500 non-Syrian and non-Iraqi Arabs trying to cross and we have stopped 2,700 Syrians from crossing ... Our army is there - but the Iraqi army and the Americans are not there on the other side."

Behind these grave suspicions in Damascus lies the memory of Saddam's long friendship with the United States. "Our Hafez el-Assad [the former Syrian president who died in 2000] learnt that Saddam, in his early days, met with American officials 20 times in four weeks. This convinced Assad that, in his words, 'Saddam is with the Americans'. Saddam was the biggest helper of the Americans in the Middle East (when he attacked Iran in 1980) after the fall of the Shah. And he still is! After all, he brought the Americans to Iraq!"

So I turn to a story which is more distressing for my sources: the death by shooting of Brigadier General Ghazi Kenaan, former head of Syrian military intelligence in Lebanon - an awesomely powerful position - and Syrian Minister of Interior when his suicide was announced by the Damascus government last year.

Widespread rumours outside Syria suggested that Kenaan was suspected by UN investigators of involvement in the murder of the former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri in a massive car bomb in Beirut last year - and that he had been "suicided" by Syrian government agents to prevent him telling the truth.

Not so, insisted my original interlocutor. "General Ghazi was a man who believed he could give orders and anything he wanted would happen. Something happened that he could not reconcile - something that made him realise he was not all-powerful. On the day of his death, he went to his office at the Interior Ministry and then he left and went home for half an hour. Then he came back with a pistol. He left a message for his wife in which he said goodbye to her and asked her to look after their children and he said that what he was going to do was 'for the good of Syria'. Then he shot himself in the mouth."

Of Hariri's assassination, Syrian officials like to recall his relationship with the former Iraqi interim prime minister Iyad Alawi - a self-confessed former agent for the CIA and MI6 - and an alleged $20bn arms deal between the Russians and Saudi Arabia in which they claim Hariri was involved.

Hariri's Lebanese supporters continue to dismiss the Syrian argument on the grounds that Syria had identified Hariri as the joint author with his friend, French President Jacques Chirac, of the UN Security Council resolution which demanded the retreat of the Syrians from Lebanese territory.

But if the Syrians are understandably obsessed with the American occupation of Iraq, their long hatred for Saddam - something which they shared with most Iraqis - is still intact. When I asked my first "security" source what would happen to the former Iraqi dictator, he replied, banging his fist into his hand: "He will be killed. He will be killed. He will be killed."
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The_Prince
04-16-2007, 11:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Since 2001 suicide bombings, mass graves, executions, abductions, car bombs and other methods of indiscriminate killing have been heavily reported in the news world wide. The extremely vast majority of these outrageous attacks have been made by Muslim people, often labeled as radical, extreme or otherwise by the media and different governments. I have personally followed much of this conflict as I feel it affects everyone whether they be in Iraq, Afghanistan or the US or China for that matter, the death of another human should, at least, affect us all.

The real problem that I have with this is as of yet there has not been any real public outcry by the Muslim community to stop these heinous acts of violence. Sure, there are forums out there and there are a couple of news agencies who have quoted Imams and scholars and other religious figures as saying simply Islam doesnt condone violence, but there has not been any "real" action or attempt to curb this violence and make it known to the world that this is not the Islamic way, which I believe is in a very large part why these attacks continue each day.

I know that the Muslim community in general is not bad and does not vocally condone this behavior, but not saying anything in the state of the world today, to me, is as bad as promoting it as the right thing to do. In fact, I would venture to say that their are more people promoting this twisted form of "jihad" than those who are actually speaking out or acting out against it. This is where I believe the source of the problem is, without the Muslim community in full support of stopping this violence it will never stop. There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, why do none speak up? Your brothers and sisters, Muslim and non Muslim, are dying every day and for what? What is being accomplished? Our children see this violence and no one is saying it is wrong, what do you think they will grow up to do? Is that what you wish for our children and their children? I personally do not.

Many may say that, for example, Christianity is not free from violence or indiscriminate killing and this is very true. In fact, it is true for any group, organization or otherwise to have some bad seeds, but it is the responsiblity of that group to distance themselves and set themselves apart from those commiting the atrocites. Take the KKK for example, they claimed to be a Christian group, however the Christians denounced their acts of hatred and publicly excommunicated anyone associated with them from the church. The were likened with the devil and eventually lost all authority, support and power, and what was once a group of over 1 million people is today a mere 3,000. That is the power of the voice and a group of people banning together to rid the world of something like this.

I would like to ask Muslims to protest, nonviolently, against the violent and life ending actions taken by the people in places like Iraq, speak with your religious leaders about speaking publicly to news stations and the media to show not only the rest of the world, but those committing these attacks that it is not Islam and that you will not be associated with such stupidity and lack of respect for human life.

PEACE
muslims should and have condemned terror attacks, in jordan they had a march telling zarqawi to go to hell, countless islamic orginizations and imams have spoken out against terror attacks. some of the very top scholars in saudia arabia, such as bin baz called bin laden a heretic and condemned his attacks etc etc, so please stop saying the muslims should be doing more, they have spoke out against terrorism time and time again, fatwas have also been released against terror acts etc etc, so just because it doesnt get reported in your news (which isnt suprising) doesnt mean its not being said. but i do believe muslims should have a big march in usa and uk to set the record straight once and for all as this will get alot of attention, hopefully they will do it soon.

but at the same time you should do your part, you keep calling on muslims to join your 'side' yet at the same time you have fox news spewing so much anti-muslim propaganda, you have major conservative sites and orginizations making t-shirts saying nuke Makkah, and then you have all the cartoons mocking the prophet Muhammad etc, so this shouldnt be just muslims, westeners should also do their part to condemn the non stop propaganda attacks against muslims going on 24-7, i got the links of all the major american conservative sites attacking muslims saying nuke makkah etc.
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Keltoi
04-16-2007, 11:42 PM
What "major" conservative site promotes the "nuke Mecca" shirt? Sounds like a fringe to me. In any event, speech is one thing, violence is another.
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MTAFFI
04-17-2007, 01:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
muslims should and have condemned terror attacks, in jordan they had a march telling zarqawi to go to hell, countless islamic orginizations and imams have spoken out against terror attacks. some of the very top scholars in saudia arabia, such as bin baz called bin laden a heretic and condemned his attacks etc etc, so please stop saying the muslims should be doing more, they have spoke out against terrorism time and time again, fatwas have also been released against terror acts etc etc, so just because it doesnt get reported in your news (which isnt suprising) doesnt mean its not being said. but i do believe muslims should have a big march in usa and uk to set the record straight once and for all as this will get alot of attention, hopefully they will do it soon.
This march in the US and UK is a huge deal, it is good to hear this and does show that not all Muslims support these acts. And yes there has been a march against Zarqawi in Jordan and a march against Al-Qaeda in Morroco, but all in all you are talking about 300,000 people in all in those two marches, whereas there are over a billion Muslims in the world. You also speak of islamic organizations and Imams speaking out, however how often is this done? Why dont they report this to the media in person, rather than simply issuing a statement? Also, from what I have noticed many times when these people do speak out they are then considered to be an apostate of Islam or "siding with the west" or a liberal or moderate Muslim, what kind of message do you think that sends to the rest of the world?

These things do get reported by the news in the US, and in fact I have seen it reported on Fox news as well. There is just simply not enough of it going on, think about it, everyday there is at least 1 terrorist spreading his word or kill the Kuffar or death to America or fight in Iraq, there is not an imam, islamic organization or even the general muslim population countering that everyday... The muslims are being outspoken by the terrorist, so in my opinion, no you are not doing enough and you need to be more aggressive in taking hold of the situation. A statement by scholars, etc here and there is simply not going to cut it.

format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
but at the same time you should do your part, you keep calling on muslims to join your 'side' yet at the same time you have fox news spewing so much anti-muslim propaganda, you have major conservative sites and orginizations making t-shirts saying nuke Makkah, and then you have all the cartoons mocking the prophet Muhammad etc, so this shouldnt be just muslims, westeners should also do their part to condemn the non stop propaganda attacks against muslims going on 24-7, i got the links of all the major american conservative sites attacking muslims saying nuke makkah etc.

First off, who is this major conservative american site? Secondly, Fox news reports on Muslims negatively because there isnt much to report positively these days, what should they do? Lie and say that Muslims love the US and just want peace, this is just simply not what appears to be the case as reflected in world affairs and even on this very website, at times. However I am not making excuses, anti-muslim propaganda should be stopped as should any retarded t-shirts like the one you mention above. The cartoons however have been stopped, so I will leave that at that. Now as far as the American people reacting to the propaganda and t-shirts, both are a form of free speech, all we can do is condemn it and since I have never seen a shirt on a person that says Nuke Makkah I think most people are condemning that and as far as the news propaganda, well if more Muslims would speak out against what is going on they wouldnt be able to come up with such things if it were evident that the Muslim community was truly against what is going on.

Finally, I would like to say that I never asked Muslims to take "our side". I am asking Muslims to take a stand for what they believe is right, if Muslims believe that what is being done in the world right now is what is right, then say so and it can be dealt with. However, if you do not agree with it (which I hope most dont) then separate yourselves from it and show the rest of the world and these terrorist organizations that these actions are not that of Muslims but that of apostates and warmongers. It should not be an "us" or "them" thing, it should be a right or wrong thing. You tell me
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Bittersteel
04-17-2007, 02:22 PM
In any event, speech is one thing, violence is another.
is it?wasn't a Muslim dude arrested in UK for shouting "Death to America"?he was shouting,not firing weapons and yet he was arrested.correct me if I am wrong.
Nuke Mecca and Death to America seems similar to me.
Secondly, Fox news reports on Muslims negatively because there isnt much to report positively these days, what should they do?
says who?you ever lived in a Muslim country?Just because they aren't reported doesn't mean there aren't positive things happening acroos the Muslim world.there's both good and bad.and negative things aren't only present in the Muslim world,they exist to different extents in all places.

The muslims are being outspoken by the terrorist, so in my opinion, no you are not doing enough and you need to be more aggressive in taking hold of the situation. A statement by scholars, etc here and there is simply not going to cut it.
sigh,okay what would you like us to do?again this "outspoken"...its your media giving more time to extremists than others.
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Medina83
04-17-2007, 02:45 PM
I have to say I agree with the original poster.

And we could go on forever about well non-muslims did this to us and throwing stones on both sides.

The world will never improve unless people start with themselves first.

And so yes i would be delighted to see and participate in a worldwide Muslim outcry against these things similar to the outcry against the Danish cartoons of Prophet Muhammed pbuh.

I remember a Hadith where one of the companions and the prophet were sitting together and someone was insulting the companion. (I can't remember which companion ..I think it was Abu Bakr a.s.) Anyway the companion remained silent to all the insults for a long time until finally he retaliated with a smart comment to the person insulting him at which point Muhammed pbuh either walked away or got angry (I can't remember sorry). When Muhammed pbuh spoke to the companion later , he said that while the companion was bearing the insults the angels were with him, but when he retaliated , they left immediately.

To me this means that we should always have patience even with those who attack our faith. And with those who make valid suggestions (such as this original poster) , and not get defensive and attack them for it.

Everyone has their sins, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, when we as Muslims start to focus on bettering ourselves and our ummah as opposed to sitting around slating others, then the position of Islam will improve in the world which can only benefit us.

Also I would point out that America (i'm Irish so no affiliation to America) and Europe for that matter have a strong growing population of Muslims and so labelling of 'the West' and 'America' in a general sense in diatribes is really quite frustrating for those of us muslims who live in these areas. Our countries do have some good qualities also. We as Muslims cannot really continue to use these categorisations because we are including our Muslim brethren in these categories.

Salam
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The_Prince
04-17-2007, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
This march in the US and UK is a huge deal, it is good to hear this and does show that not all Muslims support these acts. And yes there has been a march against Zarqawi in Jordan and a march against Al-Qaeda in Morroco, but all in all you are talking about 300,000 people in all in those two marches, whereas there are over a billion Muslims in the world. You also speak of islamic organizations and Imams speaking out, however how often is this done? Why dont they report this to the media in person, rather than simply issuing a statement? Also, from what I have noticed many times when these people do speak out they are then considered to be an apostate of Islam or "siding with the west" or a liberal or moderate Muslim, what kind of message do you think that sends to the rest of the world?

These things do get reported by the news in the US, and in fact I have seen it reported on Fox news as well. There is just simply not enough of it going on, think about it, everyday there is at least 1 terrorist spreading his word or kill the Kuffar or death to America or fight in Iraq, there is not an imam, islamic organization or even the general muslim population countering that everyday... The muslims are being outspoken by the terrorist, so in my opinion, no you are not doing enough and you need to be more aggressive in taking hold of the situation. A statement by scholars, etc here and there is simply not going to cut it.




First off, who is this major conservative american site? Secondly, Fox news reports on Muslims negatively because there isnt much to report positively these days, what should they do? Lie and say that Muslims love the US and just want peace, this is just simply not what appears to be the case as reflected in world affairs and even on this very website, at times. However I am not making excuses, anti-muslim propaganda should be stopped as should any retarded t-shirts like the one you mention above. The cartoons however have been stopped, so I will leave that at that. Now as far as the American people reacting to the propaganda and t-shirts, both are a form of free speech, all we can do is condemn it and since I have never seen a shirt on a person that says Nuke Makkah I think most people are condemning that and as far as the news propaganda, well if more Muslims would speak out against what is going on they wouldnt be able to come up with such things if it were evident that the Muslim community was truly against what is going on.

Finally, I would like to say that I never asked Muslims to take "our side". I am asking Muslims to take a stand for what they believe is right, if Muslims believe that what is being done in the world right now is what is right, then say so and it can be dealt with. However, if you do not agree with it (which I hope most dont) then separate yourselves from it and show the rest of the world and these terrorist organizations that these actions are not that of Muslims but that of apostates and warmongers. It should not be an "us" or "them" thing, it should be a right or wrong thing. You tell me
well you see when an imam condemns the act, he speaks for his followers too, like the major saudi scholars who have now passed away like bin baz called bin laden a heretic and condemned his attacks, and now this scholar had millions of people who would follow his work and listen to him etc, in saudia arabia, and around the world, put that with all the other imams who have spoken out against terrorism and you do have the majority of muslims who are against it, they dont need to march or protest, this isnt the Islamic way of doing things, we let a representitive speak for us, and the rep who speaks for us we follow his ruling on the matter, so therefore when imams come togethor and condemn the terrorism the issue is closed, we dont need to go march because the issue has been resolved. you see, you should really take the time to learn about Islam and how things are done, because you want us to follow your procedure of doing things, march, protest, all that, yet this is not the Islamic way of doing things, now many muslims do march protest etc but the majority dont, because the majority just follow the rulings of the scholars and imams who have now condemned the attacks hence case closed, we dont need to keep condeming it as it has already been done.

now im not saying you guys can never mock us, do it, but as they say, there is a limit to how much insulting and mocking you can do, you understand that. when you keep doing it over and over again its bound to tick the person off, were not asking for special treatment, just normal treatment, is asking not to be mocked and insulted on a weekly basis to much to ask for?

and now as for fox news, fox news gives FALSE propaganda, like the recent shooter in virginia, fox reported he was asian, which is true, but fox news purposely just said asian instead of oriental asian, because the first thing people thought when asian was brought up was pakistani or some muslim country in asia, it is small propaganda tools like this to stir up emotion. fox news are always inviting anti-Islamic guests, such as robert spencer, and many others who villify muslims 24-7, and on top of that once on fox news show, fox and friends which airs in the morning, the idiotic commentator of the show said 'so basically Muhammad said join us or get killed unlike jesus a message of love and peace' and then that segment ended and they went into an advertizement, are you telling me this is appropriate for a supposedly objective major news orginization?!!!!!!!!!!!!! you can still find it on youtube i believe, just search robert spencer fox news.

as for the t-shirts, well just visit www.foxnews.com and you will see advert for the conservative t-shirt site on the side of the page. if you cant find it, ill get the link as i saved it.

last but not least, americans themselves should also get up and protest, you see you act like its one way traffic, let us not forget america is number one supplier in finance and arms for israel, which in turn uses that weapons and money against fellow muslims of ours in palestine, do you really expect us to sing praises for america with this happening? you really sound illogical, it as if you think we muslims are robots, and cant get angry, that we have to accept everything you guys do against us and smile and say we love you. so never forget this, as we speak right now palestine is occupied by a country called israel which the USA regards as its best friend and ally, and as we speak the israeli army are carrying guns to shoot and kill our fellow muslims which is supplied by your nation, so therefore it is you americans who should go protesting against this illegal actions. but most of you support it! you say the 'right to self defense'.

so this isnt all one way traffic my friend, :)
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Medina83
04-17-2007, 02:57 PM
I think this topic has gone off the point...

What does being mocked by non-Muslims have to do with Muslims defending their OWN ummah by protesting against the violence caused by Muslims?
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MTAFFI
04-17-2007, 03:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
is it?wasn't a Muslim dude arrested in UK for shouting "Death to America"?he was shouting,not firing weapons and yet he was arrested.correct me if I am wrong.
Nuke Mecca and Death to America seems similar to me.
That is "inciting" violence and is apparently against the law in the UK, as for the NUke Mecca shirts, again, I have never seen a single person wear one, I am sure I can find a nuke the US shirt if I try hard enough, not to mention the Iranians who like to make a festival of it everyday, with their chants of Death to America

format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
says who?you ever lived in a Muslim country?Just because they aren't reported doesn't mean there aren't positive things happening acroos the Muslim world.there's both good and bad.and negative things aren't only present in the Muslim world,they exist to different extents in all places.
Perhaps good things happen in Muslim countries, but do these things involve foreign policy, if not then why would another countries news agency report on it? Also the news typically doesnt report great things anyways

format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
sigh,okay what would you like us to do?again this "outspoken"...its your media giving more time to extremists than others.
This is what I am talking about, everything above is an excuse, it offers no help to the situation, instead of making excuses make something happen. I am not asking anyone to befriend the US or even like the US, I personally believe if the Muslims could get along with one another it would solve a lot of problems. Fix yourself first then we can work on good international relationships.
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MTAFFI
04-17-2007, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
well you see when an imam condemns the act, he speaks for his followers too, like the major saudi scholars who have now passed away like bin baz called bin laden a heretic and condemned his attacks, and now this scholar had millions of people who would follow his work and listen to him etc, in saudia arabia, and around the world, put that with all the other imams who have spoken out against terrorism and you do have the majority of muslims who are against it, they dont need to march or protest, this isnt the Islamic way of doing things, we let a representitive speak for us, and the rep who speaks for us we follow his ruling on the matter, so therefore when imams come togethor and condemn the terrorism the issue is closed, we dont need to go march because the issue has been resolved. you see, you should really take the time to learn about Islam and how things are done, because you want us to follow your procedure of doing things, march, protest, all that, yet this is not the Islamic way of doing things, now many muslims do march protest etc but the majority dont, because the majority just follow the rulings of the scholars and imams who have now condemned the attacks hence case closed, we dont need to keep condeming it as it has already been done.
You say this is not the Muslim way, however their are riots or protests or suicide bombings or whatever everyday that are only done to try and demonstrate an islamic way or ideology, so why not display the islamic ideology of peace?
I have learned a great deal about Islam, and I know that an imam can speak for many, but does everyone know that? Is everyone supposed to learn about your faith to understand this? Most people dont have the time or wont take the time.
Also you do need to keep condemning them, you need to spread the word around and make it unacceptable. The more heinous and atrocious that it becomes the less people will want to be associated with it. If everyone thinks as you are above, this will never stop. If you notice what has been done already is very obviously not working, obviously more action must be taken. The rest of the world cannot fix the Muslim community, it is up to the Muslim community to fix itself.

format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
now im not saying you guys can never mock us, do it, but as they say, there is a limit to how much insulting and mocking you can do, you understand that. when you keep doing it over and over again its bound to tick the person off, were not asking for special treatment, just normal treatment, is asking not to be mocked and insulted on a weekly basis to much to ask for?
Who is mocking you, the Muslims reported on in the media are the ones who are commiting these acts of violence. This is what I am trying to get at, if you want to be separated from these people you have to do something to separate yourself from them, otherwise no one can see any difference. Many have the same looks, the same origins, the same languages, there is nothing to distinguish one from another unless you separate yourself with your opinions, ideology and voice.

format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
and now as for fox news, fox news gives FALSE propaganda, like the recent shooter in virginia, fox reported he was asian, which is true, but fox news purposely just said asian instead of oriental asian, because the first thing people thought when asian was brought up was pakistani or some muslim country in asia, it is small propaganda tools like this to stir up emotion. fox news are always inviting anti-Islamic guests, such as robert spencer, and many others who villify muslims 24-7, and on top of that once on fox news show, fox and friends which airs in the morning, the idiotic commentator of the show said 'so basically Muhammad said join us or get killed unlike jesus a message of love and peace' and then that segment ended and they went into an advertizement, are you telling me this is appropriate for a supposedly objective major news orginization?!!!!!!!!!!!!! you can still find it on youtube i believe, just search robert spencer fox news.
The first part of this I believe is paranoia, most people in the US when they hear Asia they are thinking China, Korea (which is where the guy was from), thailand, etc. People think of the places you referenced when the term middle east is applied. As far as Robert Spencer, he is obviously extreme, I have seen clerics on fox that are just as extreme, but this is not the point. There are 1000's of sources for news and not everyone watches fox or only fox. I also feel this is just another excuse, what does it matter what propaganda Fox is spreading? If all of this wasnt going on, what could they say then? Nothing, so again if the Muslim community could fix itself and separate itself from the extremist fox would have to find another group to spread propaganda about.
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
as for the t-shirts, well just visit www.foxnews.com and you will see advert for the conservative t-shirt site on the side of the page. if you cant find it, ill get the link as i saved it.
I dont care to see this shirt, I know what kind of material it is and it only spreads hatred. Again I will say I have never seen anyone wearing a shirt like this
format_quote Originally Posted by Emir Aziz
last but not least, americans themselves should also get up and protest, you see you act like its one way traffic, let us not forget america is number one supplier in finance and arms for israel, which in turn uses that weapons and money against fellow muslims of ours in palestine, do you really expect us to sing praises for america with this happening? you really sound illogical, it as if you think we muslims are robots, and cant get angry, that we have to accept everything you guys do against us and smile and say we love you. so never forget this, as we speak right now palestine is occupied by a country called israel which the USA regards as its best friend and ally, and as we speak the israeli army are carrying guns to shoot and kill our fellow muslims which is supplied by your nation, so therefore it is you americans who should go protesting against this illegal actions. but most of you support it! you say the 'right to self defense'.

so this isnt all one way traffic my friend, :)
I am not asking you to befriend the US, I am not asking you to like the US. I am asking you to condemn violence. I am asking you to condemn terrorism, mass graves, car bombs, suicide bombs, I am asking you to stand up for what is right, rather than be quiet about what is wrong. What if Palestine or Israel for that matter laid down their arms and said we wish for peace? The other side would have to oblige otherwise they would be condemned by the world community immediately. The problem there now is both lands are consumed by equally radical violence and there isnt one side who is right or wrong, the only way it will stop is for one or the other to say "We want our children to live in a safe world".
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MTAFFI
04-17-2007, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Medina83
I have to say I agree with the original poster.

And we could go on forever about well non-muslims did this to us and throwing stones on both sides.

The world will never improve unless people start with themselves first.

And so yes i would be delighted to see and participate in a worldwide Muslim outcry against these things similar to the outcry against the Danish cartoons of Prophet Muhammed pbuh.

I remember a Hadith where one of the companions and the prophet were sitting together and someone was insulting the companion. (I can't remember which companion ..I think it was Abu Bakr a.s.) Anyway the companion remained silent to all the insults for a long time until finally he retaliated with a smart comment to the person insulting him at which point Muhammed pbuh either walked away or got angry (I can't remember sorry). When Muhammed pbuh spoke to the companion later , he said that while the companion was bearing the insults the angels were with him, but when he retaliated , they left immediately.

To me this means that we should always have patience even with those who attack our faith. And with those who make valid suggestions (such as this original poster) , and not get defensive and attack them for it.

Everyone has their sins, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, when we as Muslims start to focus on bettering ourselves and our ummah as opposed to sitting around slating others, then the position of Islam will improve in the world which can only benefit us.

Also I would point out that America (i'm Irish so no affiliation to America) and Europe for that matter have a strong growing population of Muslims and so labelling of 'the West' and 'America' in a general sense in diatribes is really quite frustrating for those of us muslims who live in these areas. Our countries do have some good qualities also. We as Muslims cannot really continue to use these categorisations because we are including our Muslim brethren in these categories.

Salam
Thank you for your post
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Keltoi
04-17-2007, 05:35 PM
Blaming FOX news is only a convenient excuse to divert attention from the issue. Extremists of every denomination should be marginalized. That takes more than lip service followed by excuses.
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Muhammad
04-17-2007, 06:02 PM
Greetings,

I think it would be fair to say that there are two extremes: the first being that all blame lies on the distortion or propaganda of the media and non-Muslims' unwillingness to see the truth. The second extreme is that the fault is solely due to Muslims not speaking out or doing enough to deliver the message that Islam does not support terrorism.

The truth is perhaps somewhere between the two. Yes, the media does often exaggerate and misrepresent the reality. News is often biased; an action of violence will easily make breaking news, but an Imam wishing to speak out against terrorism is somehow not as appealing - neither to the money-making side of the media, nor, perhaps, to some of those who watch the news. The fact of the matter is that the news should not be the only window of learning; people should be active and come to their own conclusions rather than being fed them by others.

On the other side of the coin, it is also true that Muslims need to find more effective ways to make themselves heard. This does not mean, however, that nobody has ever spoken out, as has already been mentioned in this thread, particularly where I linked to this post: http://www.islamicboard.com/420474-post264.html
Countless voices have already spoken out and many different forms of speaking out have been used. Protesting is not the only way to do it, and just because there hasn't been a protest for a particular occasion does not mean that nobody condemns it.


format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
The extremely vast majority of these outrageous attacks have been made by Muslim people, often labeled as radical, extreme or otherwise by the media and different governments.
How do you know it is the "extremely vast majority"? Perhaps the extremely vast majority of those imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay and other such places are charged without even being proved guilty! Perhaps the vast majority of finger pointing is towards Muslims, as you have demonstrated, but whether they are truly responsible is another matter. Nowadays we hear so many terms spurred out by the media, but what we are not told is whether a person was a true follower of Islam. All too often the supposed Muslim is one who was in the pub the night before or somebody who never attended a Mosque. And yet it is the image of practising Muslims that is tarnished.

In fact, it is true for any group, organization or otherwise to have some bad seeds, but it is the responsiblity of that group to distance themselves and set themselves apart from those commiting the atrocites.
Isn't the open declaration by a scholar that someone is a heretic distancing ourselves from them?


And yes there has been a march against Zarqawi in Jordan and a march against Al-Qaeda in Morroco, but all in all you are talking about 300,000 people in all in those two marches, whereas there are over a billion Muslims in the world.
There may be over a billion Muslims in the world, yet how many have actual access to being interviewed in a TV programme or news channel or even being able to organise a protest, when millions live in impoverished countries and do not even have basic literary skills let alone food and water?

Also, from what I have noticed many times when these people do speak out they are then considered to be an apostate of Islam or "siding with the west" or a liberal or moderate Muslim, what kind of message do you think that sends to the rest of the world?
Speaking out against terrorism does not make one an apostate of Islam, as anyone with basic knowledge of Islam can understand.


Secondly, Fox news reports on Muslims negatively because there isnt much to report positively these days, what should they do? Lie and say that Muslims love the US and just want peace, this is just simply not what appears to be the case as reflected in world affairs and even on this very website, at times.
Well first you say that Imams should speak out, yet how can you expect this to have an effect on people with the mentality of "there isn't much to report positively these days"? Obviously such people need to be willing to rid themselves of their own ignorance and prejudice before making the assertion that nothing is being done by Muslims.

well if more Muslims would speak out against what is going on they wouldnt be able to come up with such things if it were evident that the Muslim community was truly against what is going on.
I very much doubt it, since even governments go against what the majority of people truly believe in.

Peace.
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AvarAllahNoor
04-17-2007, 06:04 PM
The world is in turmoil I hope God intervenes ASAP we can't go on like this!!!!
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MTAFFI
04-17-2007, 07:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings,

I think it would be fair to say that there are two extremes: the first being that all blame lies on the distortion or propaganda of the media and non-Muslims' unwillingness to see the truth. The second extreme is that the fault is solely due to Muslims not speaking out or doing enough to deliver the message that Islam does not support terrorism.
Please note that no one here said that the fault is "soley" on Muslims.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
The truth is perhaps somewhere between the two. Yes, the media does often exaggerate and misrepresent the reality. News is often biased; an action of violence will easily make breaking news, but an Imam wishing to speak out against terrorism is somehow not as appealing - neither to the money-making side of the media, nor, perhaps, to some of those who watch the news. The fact of the matter is that the news should not be the only window of learning; people should be active and come to their own conclusions rather than being fed them by others.
Media can exaggerate and can misrepresent, but often I find that it is fairly truthful. The news reports on events and happenings around the world, just because it doesnt put everyone in the greatest of light doesnt make it any less true.

I would find an Imam speaking out against radicals very appealing, in fact imagine if a bunch of Imams got together and took a serious stance against the current events, are you really going to tell me that it wouldnt be a media frenzy? I believe the news would be all over such a thing. It seems to me that a lot of people on this forum seem to think the media is after Muslims, I think you need to watch the news a little more carefully. The media in the US tends to be very liberal, they want to pull out of Iraq, they love to attack Bush and they often dont speak of Muslims in general but use the usual groups, al-qaeda, etc. In fact, my wishing that Muslims would speak out is not as much for the rest of the world as it is for Muslims. Why do you think these groups are able to attract young influential muslims? Obviously not enough is being said or done to keep people away from these terrorist organizations.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
On the other side of the coin, it is also true that Muslims need to find more effective ways to make themselves heard. This does not mean, however, that nobody has ever spoken out, as has already been mentioned in this thread, particularly where I linked to this post: http://www.islamicboard.com/420474-post264.html
Countless voices have already spoken out and many different forms of speaking out have been used. Protesting is not the only way to do it, and just because there hasn't been a protest for a particular occasion does not mean that nobody condemns it.
I am not saying that no Muslims have spoken out, I am saying that they are not speaking out enough. Countless ways and yet it is not shown to the world by anyone. I would also like to point out again that there are other news sources that are not american and are based in the mid east, why would these agencies not cover these imam's? Would they not be biased towards Islam? If so why would they not show that this is not what Islam is about? Again plenty of people can condemn it, but without someone or a group of people making a big deal about it, it makes no difference.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
How do you know it is the "extremely vast majority"? Perhaps the extremely vast majority of those imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay and other such places are charged without even being proved guilty! Perhaps the vast majority of finger pointing is towards Muslims, as you have demonstrated, but whether they are truly responsible is another matter. Nowadays we hear so many terms spurred out by the media, but what we are not told is whether a person was a true follower of Islam. All too often the supposed Muslim is one who was in the pub the night before or somebody who never attended a Mosque. And yet it is the image of practising Muslims that is tarnished.
How do I know it is the vast majority? Well common sense for one and by the people who commit these crimes own admissions for another. How many of these attacks are committed by any other religion? None, in fact I challenge you to find one instance in current events in regard to what we are speaking about (middle east and terrorism) where the assailants are not claiming to be Muslim and doing the work of Allah.

As for your point about
"Nowadays we hear so many terms spurred out by the media, but what we are not told is whether a person was a true follower of Islam."
I couldnt agree more, why do you think this is? Could it be because Muslims are not distinguishing themselves from these people? Maybe this is not the entire reason but it definitely has a whole whole whole lot to do with it. You can deny this if you want, but again I will tell you that is what the problem is, denial and deflecting the blame.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Isn't the open declaration by a scholar that someone is a heretic distancing ourselves from them?
No, it is not actually, the declaration of a single scholar is an opinion, a declaration by a large group of scholars holding a summit would mean something.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Speaking out against terrorism does not make one an apostate of Islam, as anyone with basic knowledge of Islam can understand.
This may be true but that doesnt stop some from labeling them as such, and you only mention apostate, what about the siding with the west or being a liberal or moderate?

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Well first you say that Imams should speak out, yet how can you expect this to have an effect on people with the mentality of "there isn't much to report positively these days"? Obviously such people need to be willing to rid themselves of their own ignorance and prejudice before making the assertion that nothing is being done by Muslims.

I very much doubt it, since even governments go against what the majority of people truly believe in.

Peace.
I think a lot of people are willing to listen to something good that Muslims have to say, but since it isnt ever really said in any real numbers it seems that when it is said it is just minority view. Again I will say Muslims need to speak out for themselves, not for anyone else, no one else can or will help you help yourself, you must do that before anyone can or will take you seriously. I believe it would be the best possible starting place.
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wilberhum
04-17-2007, 09:11 PM
I firmly believe that “Silence = approval”.

I have been sitting back wanting to see what was posted before I put my 2 Cents worth in.

I understand that this breaches the concept of Backbiting, but still this is a subject that gives me great trouble.

A not uncommon strategy when there is criticism is just trying to deflect it by leveling worse charges at the accuser. Of course there is always the “Everything is the Media’s Fault” routine. But these “abdication of responsibilities” only hinder the ability of people to reach a resolution or understanding.

So in order of trying to avoid this, I readily admit that I have done worse.
In this same light, the only thing that applies to all Muslims is that they are Muslims.
Any other statement will not apply evenly across the entire spectrum of Muslims.

Now I often see where there are statements that Islam condemns terrorism. That is not my point. My point is they almost never are names named and the condemnation is open to interpretation.
There can be alternate definitions of what an Innocent Civilian is. Obviously we are not communication if we use different definitions.

I was truly impressed when Jordan had marches condemning Zaraqawi. I think it was good when CAIR denounced OBL. But I don’t remember any other condemnation of “A Terrorist”. I have never heard a single negative word from any Muslim for the likes of Mohamed Atta. I have never seen condemnations of any Imam that promotes violence and condones terrorism.

In fact not only do I not see condemnation of these murders, some times I see praise and almost no Muslim breaks there silence.

Many young Muslims come to this forum. What do they see?

Some Muslims praising terrorists and no Muslim condemning them.

What conclusion can they come to?
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aamirsaab
04-17-2007, 09:42 PM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
......In fact not only do I not see condemnation of these murders, some times I see praise and almost no Muslim breaks there silence.
Perfectly valid point.

Many young Muslims come to this forum. What do they see?

Some Muslims praising terrorists and no Muslim condemning them.

What conclusion can they come to?
Again good points raised. I imagine you yourself have seen many different posts from muslims, some agreeing with terrorists and also some condemning. I admit that sometimes there seems to be more agreeing with terrorist attacks etc.

One possible reason for this is that those who are not condemning the acts are literally tired of doing so - day in day out. Now I know this does not mean that we shouldn't keep condemning but it does happen: constant defending and apologising is not easy for any human, I hope you can understand this.

Just to clarify I am not saying I am too tired to condemn, no, I am saying that it can prove difficult, but we should still try our best. And as your points have indicated, there is clearly a need for improvement.
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wilberhum
04-17-2007, 09:58 PM
Aamirsaab,
Thank you for your comments and also thank you for understanding that my post was not to condemn but to look for understanding of my point of view.

constant defending and apologising is not easy for any human, I hope you can understand this.
I understand it quite well. I often feel the same.

But most of all I would like to thank you for
there is clearly a need for improvement.
May we all work together.
Wilber
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Muhammad
04-17-2007, 11:20 PM
Greetings MTAFFI,

format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Please note that no one here said that the fault is "soley" on Muslims.
I was referring to your statement about no Muslims speaking out against terrorism, and I was pointing out that it is an extreme to say it all comes down to not speaking loud enough.

Media can exaggerate and can misrepresent, but often I find that it is fairly truthful. The news reports on events and happenings around the world, just because it doesnt put everyone in the greatest of light doesnt make it any less true.
It certainly becomes less true if there is exaggeration and misrepresentation going on.

I would find an Imam speaking out against radicals very appealing, in fact imagine if a bunch of Imams got together and took a serious stance against the current events, are you really going to tell me that it wouldnt be a media frenzy? I believe the news would be all over such a thing. It seems to me that a lot of people on this forum seem to think the media is after Muslims, I think you need to watch the news a little more carefully. The media in the US tends to be very liberal, they want to pull out of Iraq, they love to attack Bush and they often dont speak of Muslims in general but use the usual groups, al-qaeda, etc. In fact, my wishing that Muslims would speak out is not as much for the rest of the world as it is for Muslims. Why do you think these groups are able to attract young influential muslims? Obviously not enough is being said or done to keep people away from these terrorist organizations.
What I am seeing in your post is a lot of assumptions but little factual material. Imams have already gotten together, as you can note here and here, and yes, they do sometimes make it to the news. I wouldn't call it a media "frenzy", but nevertheless the news is there. So we can see that Muslims are working very hard to make announcements, public declarations and all kinds of things to effectively deliver the message that these acts of injustice are wrong according to Islam. And many, many scholars have spoken out against such things, so that young influential Muslims have plenty of guidance to lead them to the truth.

Countless ways and yet it is not shown to the world by anyone. I would also like to point out again that there are other news sources that are not american and are based in the mid east, why would these agencies not cover these imam's?
These are assumptions; we've already seen how the countless voices are shown to the world, whichever news sources are used.

How do I know it is the vast majority? Well common sense for one
What is the common sense behind the assumption that the majority of terrorist acts today are by Muslims? All I see is stereotyping here.

and by the people who commit these crimes own admissions for another. How many of these attacks are committed by any other religion? None, in fact I challenge you to find one instance in current events in regard to what we are speaking about (middle east and terrorism) where the assailants are not claiming to be Muslim and doing the work of Allah.
Not all crimes are done by Muslims and those that are do not always claim to be doing the "work of Allaah". Look at the Virginia Massacre, a very recent event; was the assailant a Muslim? It was one of the deadliest mass shootings in American history, yet this has nothing to do with Muslims. Incidentally, I haven't yet heard it being called an act of "terrorism", "radicalism" or "extremism". Perhaps these terms are only reserved for a special set of people?

I couldnt agree more, why do you think this is? Could it be because Muslims are not distinguishing themselves from these people? Maybe this is not the entire reason but it definitely has a whole whole whole lot to do with it.
What distinguishes Muslims from these people is their actions and sometimes appearance too, so people who have little knowledge or background in Islam do unIslamic things which make them stand out from practising Muslims. I think it has more to do with what the media wish to portray, because all too often a person who calls themselves a 'Muslim' on TV is seen to represent all of the Muslim population.

No, it is not actually, the declaration of a single scholar is an opinion, a declaration by a large group of scholars holding a summit would mean something.
Hundreds of scholars have spoken out, and many summits have been made (as can be noted from the links I gave you earlier), so I hope that means something.

This may be true but that doesnt stop some from labeling them as such, and you only mention apostate, what about the siding with the west or being a liberal or moderate?
The same goes for siding with the west or being labelled as liberal; Islam does not teach unjustice so there is no reason to label people as such. The only people who would do so are probably the terrorists themselves who have little understanding of Islam.

Greetings wilberhum,

I firmly believe that “Silence = approval”.
Fair enough, though silence is most certainly not the case here.

Now I often see where there are statements that Islam condemns terrorism. That is not my point. My point is they almost never are names named and the condemnation is open to interpretation.
There can be alternate definitions of what an Innocent Civilian is. Obviously we are not communication if we use different definitions.
I think the condemnations are pretty clear - they may not have named every single terrorist, but what they are referring to is quite straightforward and not much "interpretation" is necessary. Let's look at the following quotes:

‘Abdulaziz bin ‘Abdallah Al-Ashaykh, chief mufti of Saudi Arabia:
“Firstly: the recent developments in the United States including hijacking planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood, constitute a form of injustice that cannot be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts. Secondly: any Muslim who is aware of the teachings of his religion and who adheres to the directives of the Holy Qur'an and the sunnah (the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad) will never involve himself in such acts, because they will invoke the anger of God Almighty and lead to harm and corruption on earth.”
Statement of September 15, 2001, http://saudiembassy.net/press_release/01-spa/09-15-Islam.htm

Council of Saudi ‘Ulama', fatwa of February 2003:
"What is happening in some countries from the shedding of the innocent blood and the bombing of buildings and ships and the destruction of public and private installations is a criminal act against Islam. ... Those who carry out such acts have the deviant beliefs and misleading ideologies and are responsible for the crime. Islam and Muslims should not be held responsible for such actions."
The Dawn newspaper, Karachi, Pakistan, February 8, 2003, http://www.dawn.com/2003/02/08/top17.htm; also in "Public Statements by Senior Saudi Officials Condemning Extremism and Promoting Moderation," May 2004, http://www.saudiembassy.net/ReportLink/Report_Extremism_May04.pdf, page 10

Tahirul Qadri, head of the Awami Tehrik Party, Pakistan:
"Bombing embassies or destroying non-military installations like the World Trade Center is no jihad. ... "[T]hose who launched the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks not only killed thousands of innocent people in the United States but also put the lives of millions of Muslims across the world at risk. ... Bin Laden is not a prophet that we should put thousands of lives at risk for."
United Press International, October 18, 2001, http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/10/17/195606.shtml


But I don’t remember any other condemnation of “A Terrorist”. I have never heard a single negative word from any Muslim for the likes of Mohamed Atta. I have never seen condemnations of any Imam that promotes violence and condones terrorism.
Yet Muslims have spoken out against similar acts of violence committed by others, such as the London Bombers. See here for eg.: http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle...e6fcf8ee6.html Even so-called Imams promoting violence have been condemned outright.

Many young Muslims come to this forum. What do they see?
They most certainly do not see praise of murders; rather they see the opposite. I'm not sure where you have been checking for Muslim responses, but I am quite sure they are far from being silent or praising terrorism.

Peace.
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Keltoi
04-17-2007, 11:36 PM
Sometimes I think many Muslims are afraid to give their honest feelings about many of the terrorist acts committed in the name of their religion because by doing so they might appear to be condoning political actions they don't agree with. Like the Iraq War. When I saw all the videos coming out of so-called Muslims beheading people on videotapes I thought.."This is it, Muslims will have to openly and forcefully denounce these actions now"....but I was wrong. Yes, some said "This is wrong"..then will come the "but" monkey..."but the Iraq War is wrong". I understand this line of thinking, but as a Christian, if I saw so-called Christians sawing some poor person's head off on a videotape yelling "Praise the Lord"....I would be disgusted beyond words to describe. I expected summits, meetings, protests....but there was nothing. That is the silence I think many people are referring to.
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جوري
04-17-2007, 11:48 PM
Why would we denounce the beheadings? what are your boys doing there? handing out candy? I think they deserve everything that is coming to them... Anyone who willingly, consciously and freely signs up for this war deserves what is coming to them-- I didn't hear any regrets from a woman solider that murdered a 7 years old boy... ... I am only hoping the rest can learn a lesson and stop going there... leave these people alone! enough already... people have had enough of you.. if I were living in Iraq and I lived in this much chaos and experienced this much loss. I'd make it my soul purpose to be rid my country of you, any which was possible!
What would you do in a reverse situation? if Iraqis came here imperialized you, stole your natural resources and raped your women, threw your men in jail with some dogs at them--and disseminated crap about you every day in their corporate media for 8 yrs? Pls enough hypocrisy
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Keltoi
04-17-2007, 11:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Why would we denounce the beheadings? what are your boys doing there? handing out candy? I think they deserve everything that is coming to them... Anyone who willingly, consciously and freely signs up for this war deserves what is coming to them-- I didn't hear any regrets from a woman solider that murdered a 7 years old boy... ... I am only hoping the rest can learn a lesson and stop going there... leave these people alone! enough already... people have had enough of you.. if I were living in Iraq and I lived in this much chaos and experienced this much loss. I'd make it my soul purpose to be rid my country of you, any which was possible!
What would you do in a reverse situation? if Iraqis came here imperialized you, stole your natural resources and raped your women, threw your men in jail with some dogs at them--and disseminated crap about you every day in their corporate media for 8 yrs? Pls enough hypocrisy
Thanks for proving my point. The beheading in the name of Allah takes a back seat to politics.
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جوري
04-17-2007, 11:52 PM
The beheading is in the name of justice. Don't want to lose your head.. don't go there!

peace!
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Keltoi
04-17-2007, 11:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
The beheading is in the name of justice. Don't want to lose your head.. don't go there!

peace!
In the name of justice? Perhaps I might accept that if the one being murdered was a soldier, but of course it wasn't. They never are. I also notice you keep dodging the issue of these fighters for "justice" yelling "God is Great!" while they murder a non-combatant on a video tape like a cheap snuff film. Are these the people you want representing your faith?
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wilberhum
04-18-2007, 12:02 AM
Muhammad
London's Muslims Condemn Extremists
Not a single person was named as a terrorist.
That is my point

They most certainly do not see praise of murders
Going back less than a week I found:
Justification of terrorism
Chechens didnt blow up the hostages in Buddenyvosk so there was no killing of innocent people but there was tens of thousands of dead innocents in Chechnya which is why this hostage-taking was so crucial.
Another Muslim supports him
I think the chechens should do whatever it takes to liberate themselves... All is fair in Love and war!.... there is no love lost there though
Praising a murder
Yes, i praise Shamil Basayev
Thread:
Bin Laden is a Great Man, Formidable Enemy and Deserves Respect
And I just love this response:
lets not say nothing bad about no-one
Did that support my point?
One good thing i have seen about Osama
all Bin Ladens aims of the war are defensive
Prainsing hostage takers
they tried a more brutal method and that did work and they became heroes
Denial is common
There's no such thing as al Qaeda, or al Qaida, or however you want to spell it. It's a fraud perpetrated on the British and American people by the governments to scare us into submission.
Wilber
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snakelegs
04-18-2007, 01:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
Sometimes I think many Muslims are afraid to give their honest feelings about many of the terrorist acts committed in the name of their religion because by doing so they might appear to be condoning political actions they don't agree with.
you have hit on something here.
many muslims experience this as a war against islam - whether or not we see it this way doesn't really matter.
i fall into this thinking also. i am so upset at what is being done in my name as an american citizen, that i often do not criticize despicable things done in response to it.
btw, i think some muslim organizations have taken a stand against terrorism. one problem is i think that muslims don't really have a central religious authority figure, or organized clergy.
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Keltoi
04-18-2007, 01:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
you have hit on something here.
many muslims experience this as a war against islam - whether or not we see it this way doesn't really matter.
i fall into this thinking also. i am so upset at what is being done in my name as an american citizen, that i often do not criticize despicable things done in response to it.
btw, i think some muslim organizations have taken a stand against terrorism. one problem is i think that muslims don't really have a central religious authority figure, or organized clergy.
I've brought this issue up before, about the lack of central authority figure in Islam to make grand declarations. I'm sure that is a large reason for the perception that Muslims aren't active enough in denouncing terrorism.
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MTAFFI
04-18-2007, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings MTAFFI,

I was referring to your statement about no Muslims speaking out against terrorism, and I was pointing out that it is an extreme to say it all comes down to not speaking loud enough.
Why would you consider "extreme" to say it all comes down to not speaking loud enough? Also, I have looked back at my posts and I dont see where I said it "all" comes down to any one particular thing, also I dont see where I ever said that "no" muslims speak out, in fact, I notice that I posted that some do, just not enough.
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
It certainly becomes less true if there is exaggeration and misrepresentation going on.
Please show me an exaggeration with a recent event.. I am saying that there is occasional exageration or misrepresentation, but this can typically be figured out by watching more than one news station or following more than one source, which I would think most people do, otherwise how would we know of exaggeration or misrepresentation?

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
What I am seeing in your post is a lot of assumptions but little factual material. Imams have already gotten together, as you can note here and here, and yes, they do sometimes make it to the news. I wouldn't call it a media "frenzy", but nevertheless the news is there. So we can see that Muslims are working very hard to make announcements, public declarations and all kinds of things to effectively deliver the message that these acts of injustice are wrong according to Islam. And many, many scholars have spoken out against such things, so that young influential Muslims have plenty of guidance to lead them to the truth.

These are assumptions; we've already seen how the countless voices are shown to the world, whichever news sources are used.
It is actually funny that you chose these as your sources because they you actually proved my point. Neither of the articles are even from the last 2 years. You look for Imams and scholars speaking out against this violence and the best you get is from over two years ago. Try to look up the last hate message by any of these groups that we are speaking of, I bet you can find one as recent as within the last 24 hours. Do you see the problem here, or am I just getting carpal tunnel for no reason?

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
What is the common sense behind the assumption that the majority of terrorist acts today are by Muslims? All I see is stereotyping here.
It seems you may have a common case of denial, I suggest you take a look at the world around to to provide yourself with the medicine to fix this. The terrorist acts that we are talking about in Iraq, Afghanistan, the attack on the US, the attacks in Somalia all are done by so called Islamic groups. All claim to "fight" in the name of Islam, if I am wrong about this please prove it and I will apologize.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Not all crimes are done by Muslims and those that are do not always claim to be doing the "work of Allaah". Look at the Virginia Massacre, a very recent event; was the assailant a Muslim? It was one of the deadliest mass shootings in American history, yet this has nothing to do with Muslims. Incidentally, I haven't yet heard it being called an act of "terrorism", "radicalism" or "extremism". Perhaps these terms are only reserved for a special set of people?
I am not saying ALL crime are committed by muslims, and you are steering away from the original point of my post. as far as the guy in Virginia, he was a terrorist, a single terrorist, who didnt kill in the name of a religion or ethnic group, for two hours. If he suddenly has a mass following of people and they are killing in the name of Buddha (no offense to Buddhist, I honestly dont know how they worship in SK) or whatever his religion was then yes they would have a certain term reserved for them as well.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
What distinguishes Muslims from these people is their actions and sometimes appearance too, so people who have little knowledge or background in Islam do unIslamic things which make them stand out from practising Muslims. I think it has more to do with what the media wish to portray, because all too often a person who calls themselves a 'Muslim' on TV is seen to represent all of the Muslim population.
Again this is my point, please show the world what a real muslim is and how they can be distinguished from these radicals. The only way to do this is to SAY OR DO something. Sitting back and holding a summit once or twice or even 10 times in two years isnt worth the time.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
The same goes for siding with the west or being labelled as liberal; Islam does not teach unjustice so there is no reason to label people as such. The only people who would do so are probably the terrorists themselves who have little understanding of Islam.
That is good to hear, to bad when these people say things the only people who speak up are the once that you are saying are terrorist themselves. There was actually a thread on here a while back about a british imam being an apostate because he spoke of peace with the west and an end to terrorism, what is really sad is that many on this forum agreed with that.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-18-2007, 01:59 AM
Yes Muslims need to speak out MORE. Why? Because unfortunately, although Muslims are speaking out, it's not enough. You have still the big fish to beat that's making a huge impact on how people view us. And that's the media. The best way a Muslim can speak out, I think, is to actually start acting like one. Action speaks louder than words. The attacks made by so called Muslims, blast such a tremendous impact that cannot be erased. I think we could make a bigger difference if it was more action than political talk.

All responsibility does not just fall onto our shoulders. Please let's not assume that. Non-Muslims have just as much responsibility as we do. Your probably wondering why. Well I'll you. It's because the media and people in politics which include non-Muslims, have a bigger impact on the world that crosses to everyones T.V. screen. So when you, as a Non-Muslim learn something about Islam that is the complete opposite of what we see, it's just as important you let people know. It's not fair that we have to be told to do more while at the same time Muslims are being pounded on, physically, mentally, and emotionally. The average Muslim does a lot, but you don't see it. Unless your the one who's being told. Just like here on the forums. You don't need to look far and wide. Just take a look at your fellow Muslims around you, ask them questions. Anyways that's my rant, if it makes sense at all. Cause I just wrote that off the top of my head in a few seconds lol.

Peace
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Agnostic
04-18-2007, 02:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
A beheading in the name of anything that would listen, if one were to live under such circumstances.. No I am not dodging the point. I am disgusted by what America does in the name of anything it will make up as its slogan for the day. You have wasted enough of my time. All is fair in war! Again for the last time.. don't want to lose your head or those of your kids... don't send them there... not even to promenade and take in the scenery...


peace!
Silence= Acceptance and Approval
Some seem to take it much further

Peace ?
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جوري
04-18-2007, 02:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Agnostic
Silence= Acceptance and Approval
Some seem to take it much further

Peace ?
I agree... That silence would be acceptance and approval.. I don't think they should be silent or approving! 67703 Iraqis have died to date-- or does human life not mean anything to you unless it is an American life? I think the Iraqis should do whatever it takes to be rid themselves of this occupation. I am sure you'd do the same if your country were occupied!

And yes! Peace upon people who seek peace --not imperialism and stealing the wealth of other nations while killing their sons and daughters! Do people not grieve as you do? What is wrong with this picture?
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NoName55
04-18-2007, 08:55 AM
It is sickening to see how some mods fawn over kuffar, and delete any post that would be disliked by them, while kafirs have a frree hand, can desecrate any thread they wish to in any section
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
04-18-2007, 08:58 AM
I have a request, can you guys also delete posts that are not by Muslims, which are ALSO insulting. Delete mine too, i know itll happen.

Peace
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Muezzin
04-18-2007, 09:10 AM
Jazzy, I'll look through the thread inshallah and delete the relevant posts. It will also help me a great deal in general if you used the report function for specific posts.

format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
It is sickening to see how some mods fawn over kuffar, and delete any post that would be disliked by them, while kafirs have a frree hand, can desecrate any thread they wish to in any section
If you do not approve of a post, please report it, and a mod will delete it if it is breaking the rules.

Off-topic posts in world affairs are deleted whoever posts them, Muslim or non-Muslim.

If you have any further queries, please PM me.
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Muhammad
04-18-2007, 10:42 AM
Greetings Wilber,

format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Muhammad
London's Muslims Condemn Extremists
Not a single person was named as a terrorist.
That is my point
I don't really see what difference it makes whether they call them terrorists or extremists; so long as they have condemned them, that's what matters.

Regarding your quotes that you managed to find, certain people may come to this forum with strong feelings or beliefs about particular issues. While we try our utmost to ensure that messages posted are acceptable according to Islamic standards, we cannot always catch misstatements. Our disclaimer reads: Please remember that we are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this Forum. Any user who feels that a posted message is objectionable is encouraged to contact us immediately by email or private message. We have the ability to remove objectionable messages and we will make every effort to do so, within a reasonable time frame, if we determine that removal is necessary.

So young, impressionable Muslims may come to this forum, but we as a forum do not promote terrorist actions. You will find much material proving this across the forum - threads that put the concept of war in Islam into perspective, and explaining how unjustice is not a teaching of Islam.

Looking at the specific quotes you mentioned, I can understand your concerns, but I didn't really see open justification of terrorism; the Chechen hostages one wasn't actually saying that killing innocent people is right. As for the Bin Laden thread - those weren't the words of the original poster but rather (supposedly) an ex-cia agent.

I would encourage you or anyone else that whenever you see a post as praising or justifying terrorism, you report that post so that it can be removed.
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noodles
04-18-2007, 11:19 AM
Since 2001 suicide bombings, mass graves, executions, abductions, car bombs and other methods of indiscriminate killing have been heavily reported in the news world wide. The extremely vast majority of these outrageous attacks have been made by Muslim people, often labeled as radical, extreme or otherwise by the media and different governments. I have personally followed much of this conflict as I feel it affects everyone whether they be in Iraq, Afghanistan or the US or China for that matter, the death of another human should, at least, affect us all.

The real problem that I have with this is as of yet there has not been any real public outcry by the Muslim community to stop these heinous acts of violence. Sure, there are forums out there and there are a couple of news agencies who have quoted Imams and scholars and other religious figures as saying simply Islam doesnt condone violence, but there has not been any "real" action or attempt to curb this violence and make it known to the world that this is not the Islamic way, which I believe is in a very large part why these attacks continue each day.

I know that the Muslim community in general is not bad and does not vocally condone this behavior, but not saying anything in the state of the world today, to me, is as bad as promoting it as the right thing to do. In fact, I would venture to say that their are more people promoting this twisted form of "jihad" than those who are actually speaking out or acting out against it. This is where I believe the source of the problem is, without the Muslim community in full support of stopping this violence it will never stop. There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, why do none speak up? Your brothers and sisters, Muslim and non Muslim, are dying every day and for what? What is being accomplished? Our children see this violence and no one is saying it is wrong, what do you think they will grow up to do? Is that what you wish for our children and their children? I personally do not.

Many may say that, for example, Christianity is not free from violence or indiscriminate killing and this is very true. In fact, it is true for any group, organization or otherwise to have some bad seeds, but it is the responsiblity of that group to distance themselves and set themselves apart from those commiting the atrocites. Take the KKK for example, they claimed to be a Christian group, however the Christians denounced their acts of hatred and publicly excommunicated anyone associated with them from the church. The were likened with the devil and eventually lost all authority, support and power, and what was once a group of over 1 million people is today a mere 3,000. That is the power of the voice and a group of people banning together to rid the world of something like this.

I would like to ask Muslims to protest, nonviolently, against the violent and life ending actions taken by the people in places like Iraq, speak with your religious leaders about speaking publicly to news stations and the media to show not only the rest of the world, but those committing these attacks that it is not Islam and that you will not be associated with such stupidity and lack of respect for human life.

PEACE
To work something out, it has to be the responsibility of both parties to acknowledge that they've done wrong and the willingness to accept it.

You ask any Muslim that tries his best to pray his 5 daily prayers and they will say Islam is against suicide. Any Muslim knows that. However, do the countries where the Islamic community is a minority know that? Not very likely. I find it meaningless to have to repeat myself time after time when talking to strangers on this matter. Many of these individuals have got a mindset which reads "Jihad=Suicide bombers" & "Islam=Jihad." Now I ask you, if your very own people won't find the positives in Islam, then who is to say that "Us" shouting in their ears is going to make any difference?

Yes, media is partially responsible for this lateral of thinking in people. But it is the audiences fault too for the unwillingness to accept any other way.

That said, my opinion, according to what I have heard from many of lectures and reading a handful of hadiths and from my limited Quranic knowledge, is that the people of Iraq, Somalia, afghanistan are much to blame themselves. Our beloved Prophets teachings are to have patience even in the direst of situations and what I see at times is that is exactly what these people are lacking. Not to mention tolerance. In someway I sympathize with them. When some individual (Be it American or their own kind) kills their only anchor to this world, they go mad; And the only outlet for this anger is through violence. I can be 90% sure in some what or this other, it will traumatize you and conclusively lead you to hatred towards your opposition.

Sadly, many folks don't know who their enemy is, and as a result they follow the crowd and take their respective positions and do their job.

Our beloved prophet was the best example for us and by studying his lifestyle and the people around him, we can conclude that they were the most patient of men[and women]. So much so that when the Kuffar[Non-believers] would take a Muslim woman and tie her leg to one horse and tie her other leg to the other and make both the horses run in opposite directions, ALL the while making her son watch his mother being tortured. But not once did they take revenge. They remained patient and watched the horrors taking place in front of their eyes.

Now that is what I call patience. Can you tell me you can go through that and still maintain your sanity?

As for the 'Death to America' and 'Death to Israel' chants, I can't say I blame them. With the occupation of Iraq it set itself up for all the anger. What these people needed was an outlet, and who else to blame than to the ones that will not leave their country? In some incongruous way, it all fits.

What is the solution?

Perhaps [keep in mind the optimal word is "Perhaps"] the best way would be to pull your troops home. If that is done and the 'Death to America' and 'Death to Israel' still continues, then by all means have protesters in America march out with their 'Death to Iraq' and 'Death to Iran' signs.

(Despite of the crude humor, I can't seem to think of a better solution)

You talk about scholars speaking up against militant groups, but I ask you, what is the purpose behind it? Many O people relate terrorists and Islam to be the same and if we try to prove them otherwise, it seems they consider it blasphemous.

Part of the problem is the media(Yes it sounds repititious) The term jihad is so grossly tangled with terrorism that any person who hears the term will automatically[and no joke about it] will think of terrorism. If the media does this with so much ease, why can it not do so the other way around. There are Quite a number of lecturers out there who have spoken the true meaning of Jihad. Why are they not shown on the Media?
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Muhammad
04-18-2007, 12:01 PM
Greetings MTAFFI,

format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Why would you consider "extreme" to say it all comes down to not speaking loud enough?
Because that is not the only reason. Many Muslims have and still are speaking out, yet people have to also be willing to listen to them and be active in seeking out their views. People have to stop using the media as their only source of information about Muslims. People have to stop believing misconceptions that others spread and verify for their ownselves. People should look at the actual teachings of Islam and find out for themselves what it teaches. It's a two-way thing, not just dependent on Muslims trying to reach every doorstep.

Also, I have looked back at my posts and I dont see where I said it "all" comes down to any one particular thing, also I dont see where I ever said that "no" muslims speak out, in fact, I notice that I posted that some do, just not enough.
OK, thankyou for that clarification. I was merely pointing out that there are two extremes to the matter, not that you necessarily said it all comes down to one thing. And you did say "there are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, why do none speak up?", but it doesn't matter now that you have clarified your viewpoint.

Please show me an exaggeration with a recent event.. I am saying that there is occasional exageration or misrepresentation,
You admit there is occasional exaggeration or misrepresentation, that's fine.

but this can typically be figured out by watching more than one news station or following more than one source, which I would think most people do, otherwise how would we know of exaggeration or misrepresentation?
That is the question - how would you know whether something is exaggerated or misrepresented? Watching more than one news source might be a good start, although it would have to be a diverse range, rather than similar news agencies within the same country.

It is actually funny that you chose these as your sources because they you actually proved my point. Neither of the articles are even from the last 2 years.
I don't remember claiming to present recent news. I simply said that Muslims have already spoken out, and if that was two years ago then all the better for having spoken out sooner.

You look for Imams and scholars speaking out against this violence and the best you get is from over two years ago. Try to look up the last hate message by any of these groups that we are speaking of, I bet you can find one as recent as within the last 24 hours. Do you see the problem here, or am I just getting carpal tunnel for no reason?
Hate messages might always be on the release, but so are the condemnations if you wish to find them.
http://gulf-times.com/site/topics/ar...7&parent_id=56
http://www.caircan.ca/itn_more.php?id=2899_0_2_0_C
http://www.mcb.org.uk/features/features.php?ann_id=1046

It seems you may have a common case of denial, I suggest you take a look at the world around to to provide yourself with the medicine to fix this.
I was not denying anything; I was simply saying it was wrong to automatically assume things about Muslims. Facts and figures are all good and well, but claiming it is "common sense" is not.

I am not saying ALL crime are committed by muslims, and you are steering away from the original point of my post.
Well I thought it was an important point to clarify after reading your post. It is also important to bear in mind that other religious groups have also claimed to be acting in the name of their religion, as you pointed out earlier. The bottom line is that every time an act of injustice occurs, people should not automatically assume it must be a Muslim who is carrying out the commands of his religion.

Again this is my point, please show the world what a real muslim is and how they can be distinguished from these radicals. The only way to do this is to SAY OR DO something. Sitting back and holding a summit once or twice or even 10 times in two years isnt worth the time.
And how do you know that Muslims are not saying or doing something? I would agree with you that this is the right thing to do. But again your words seem to wander towards the extreme that Muslims are not doing anything. Perhaps it should be asked how many summits are required to satisfy the world? How many times must the message be repeated before it is believed? Would it really make terrorism go away?

That is good to hear, to bad when these people say things the only people who speak up are the once that you are saying are terrorist themselves.
Wouldn't it be worse if the people speaking out against the Imams were people knowledgeable in Islam?

There was actually a thread on here a while back about a british imam being an apostate because he spoke of peace with the west and an end to terrorism, what is really sad is that many on this forum agreed with that.
If I am thinking of the right thread, then that is not an accurate summary of what it was about. What angered people was not the vision to end terrorism, but the support and prayers he made for the British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Peace.
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MTAFFI
04-18-2007, 02:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings MTAFFI,

Because that is not the only reason. Many Muslims have and still are speaking out, yet people have to also be willing to listen to them and be active in seeking out their views. People have to stop using the media as their only source of information about Muslims. People have to stop believing misconceptions that others spread and verify for their ownselves. People should look at the actual teachings of Islam and find out for themselves what it teaches. It's a two-way thing, not just dependent on Muslims trying to reach every doorstep.
I agree with this, and I think a lot of people are looking at Islam and what it teaches. I often see posts on here about Islams popularity growing, I myself have picked up the Quran to try and gain a better understanding. That said, since the root of the problem is within the Muslim community the solution must start there.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
OK, thankyou for that clarification. I was merely pointing out that there are two extremes to the matter, not that you necessarily said it all comes down to one thing. And you did say "there are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, why do none speak up?", but it doesn't matter now that you have clarified your viewpoint.
Thank you for clarifying yourself, I agree with this

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
That is the question - how would you know whether something is exaggerated or misrepresented? Watching more than one news source might be a good start, although it would have to be a diverse range, rather than similar news agencies within the same country.
I think that the internet makes available to people a far broader range of news than TV ever could offer, and I would think that more people probably use the internet to get their news than television anyways.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
I don't remember claiming to present recent news. I simply said that Muslims have already spoken out, and if that was two years ago then all the better for having spoken out sooner.
It is good that they spoke out, but my point is there isnt enough speaking out.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Good articles, glad to see this
The problem is it seems that these only get released after something happens, what about the in between, when there arent bombs going off? Of course the Muslim council of Britain is going to issue a statement, but what have they done afterwards to stop it from happening again? Same thing with the other two posts... However this should not take away from the fact that it is good that they at least said something.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
The bottom line is that every time an act of injustice occurs, people should not automatically assume it must be a Muslim who is carrying out the commands of his religion.
I agree with this, and I would hope that nobody thinks like that

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
And how do you know that Muslims are not saying or doing something? I would agree with you that this is the right thing to do. But again your words seem to wander towards the extreme that Muslims are not doing anything. Perhaps it should be asked how many summits are required to satisfy the world? How many times must the message be repeated before it is believed? Would it really make terrorism go away?
I dont think that there is enough being done because the violence escalates day by day. I dont know how many summits, but I think that there should be a major one, where all the major figures present themselves to the world. Words alone wont make terrorism go away but it would be a start, and once we find out what works and doesnt work, then you go on from there.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Wouldn't it be worse if the people speaking out against the Imams were people knowledgeable in Islam?
They certainly present themselves to be knowledgable, otherwise how do you think that they manage to recruit even with the imams, as you say, condemning it all the time.

format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
If I am thinking of the right thread, then that is not an accurate summary of what it was about. What angered people was not the vision to end terrorism, but the support and prayers he made for the British troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Peace.
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...-fanatics.html

Here is the thread

Good talking with you, this proves to be very thought provoking and helpful
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Muhammad
04-18-2007, 03:22 PM
Hello MTAFFI,

Thank you for your reply.

format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I agree with this, and I think a lot of people are looking at Islam and what it teaches. I often see posts on here about Islams popularity growing, I myself have picked up the Quran to try and gain a better understanding. That said, since the root of the problem is within the Muslim community the solution must start there.
It is good to hear that you have started reading the Qur'an - I pray that you will find in it the answers you are looking for. I agree that the Muslim community do have a big role to play and there is always room for improvement in finding more ways to speak out effectively.

The problem is it seems that these only get released after something happens, what about the in between, when there arent bombs going off?
I am sure there are many articles and cases of condemning injustice even in between events, but they reach the headlines more easily when an event happens and people look for a response. At other times, it could be that they aren't sought out as much.

They certainly present themselves to be knowledgable, otherwise how do you think that they manage to recruit even with the imams, as you say, condemning it all the time.
I think the type of people that join them are those of the same mindset - they have had little grounding in the teachings of Islam and have perhaps been misled by various sources and their own misunderstanding. Often, enthusiasm plays a large role in young minds, where they will put passions and emotions before reason.


Here is the thread
I can understand where you are coming from now, but I think it comes down to how different people perceive the same thing. As steve put it, "well I Imagen that the reason people reacted like this was not because he denounced violence, but rather because they assumed that he denounced strictness in religion under the guise of denouncing violence".

Good talking with you, this proves to be very thought provoking and helpful
It has been good talking with you too :).

Peace.
Reply

Woodrow
04-18-2007, 04:25 PM
It is difficult for non-Muslims to see that Muslims around the world are constantly speaking out against terrorism. Simply, because they have not been taught where to look.

Go to any Mosque of your choosing for Friday Jummah and the overwhelming odds are you will hear the Imam denouncing terrorism.

Look into the archives of nearly any Muslim's PC and you will find videos such as this:

http://media.putfile.com/Islam-denou...eo-med-sizewmv

Which in turn we as individuals pass on to our Brothers and Sisters. Unlike many religions we place responsibility onto the individual, as Muslims it is our duty to teach our Brothers and Sister if we see them acting in a manner we see as being un-Islamic.

Many Muslims are acting against Terrorism as Individuals. But, the only way you will see this is by taking time to get to know the Muslims in your community and learn what they are doing.

Yes, there are frequent large scale demonstrations by Muslims against terrorism. But, keep in mind we often do not have access into areas where Terrorists are. We also have language barriers from nation to nation. there is little point in having any massive anti-terrorism rally here in the US as it is not likely many American Muslims would be Terrorists. So such a rally would not reach those it needs to reach.

Millions of Imams world wide speak against terrorism daily, but to hear them you would need to visit the Mosque. Oddly, people seem to have difficulty in ever seeing what goes on in the majority of the world"s Mosques. But, let one Imam in any isolated Mosque in any tiny corner of the world speak in favor of terrorism and it will be on World News before the Imam even finishes speaking.

The terrorists are not known to the majority of the world's Muslims we have no idea where or how to contact them, then You do. we do not know who is a terrorist until after he is caught.

I know you will say just look in the paper, why don't we send people to Palestine and talk to them. Actually, Muslims do go to Palestine to speak against Terrorism. but it is difficult as a Muslim can not get a Visa to enter Israel. It is almost impossible for a Muslim to get into Palestine.

So where are the anti-Terrorism activists in Islam. We are no further than the Muslim closest to you. What do we do to denounce it? We continuously pass the word to all of our Brothers and Sisters when ever we can.

Sometimes I think the non-Muslim world Believes we have a big world wide center from which terrorism is spread out to all of the Muslims world wide. Sorry, that does not exist or else I did not make the mailing list. Now the next question that we get asked "As a Muslim, what are you going to do about Iran?" My answer is: "As a White person what are you going to do about Iran, they are your White Brethren?" I have no more chance of reaching a single person or organization in Iran then you do. Besides that I do not speak a word of Farsi and would be unable to speak to most Iranians.

Besides, it is only some of Iran's policies I oppose. I favor them living the life they choose as long as they do not wrongfully attack other people.
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MTAFFI
04-18-2007, 05:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Hello MTAFFI,

Thank you for your reply.
I think that alot of the problem though has to do with the mixed communications that Muslims and non Muslims recieve at any given time. I know on this site alone I have seen many posts in regard to the "evil west" or references to violence being OK. Many times when this sort of language or dialogue is posted you really dont see any Muslims disagreeing with it, and that is just on this site, and in fact typically when that happens a few others will join in on the bashing as well. So witnessing this, what is one to think, if people dont even stand up to these type of thing on this website, what would lead us to believe it is being done elsewhere?

So then after all this is said, what do you believe Muslims and non-muslims alike can do to help curb this seemingly unending violence?
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Woodrow
04-18-2007, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I think that alot of the problem though has to do with the mixed communications that Muslims and non Muslims recieve at any given time.I know on this site alone I have seen many posts in regard to the "evil west" or references to violence being OK. Many times when this sort of language or dialogue is posted you really dont see any Muslims disagreeing with it, and that is just on this site, and in fact typically when that happens a few others will join in on the bashing as well. So witnessing this, what is one to think, if people dont even stand up to these type of thing on this website, what would lead us to believe it is being done elsewhere?

So then after all this is said, what do you believe Muslims and non-muslims alike can do to help curb this seemingly unending violence?
I know on this site alone I have seen many posts in regard to the "evil west" or references to violence being OK. Many times when this sort of language or dialogue is posted you really dont see any Muslims disagreeing with it, and that is just on this site,


I will not talk publicly about any member. I will just say that we do not air our disagreements publicly.


So then after all this is said, what do you believe Muslims and non-muslims alike can do to help curb this seemingly unending violence?
Engage in conversations such as this one on sites like this one. All of us to just help each other see that it is an error to attribute the wrong of some people to all members of the group.
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noodles
04-18-2007, 05:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I think that alot of the problem though has to do with the mixed communications that Muslims and non Muslims recieve at any given time. I know on this site alone I have seen many posts in regard to the "evil west" or references to violence being OK. Many times when this sort of language or dialogue is posted you really dont see any Muslims disagreeing with it, and that is just on this site, and in fact typically when that happens a few others will join in on the bashing as well. So witnessing this, what is one to think, if people dont even stand up to these type of thing on this website, what would lead us to believe it is being done elsewhere?

So then after all this is said, what do you believe Muslims and non-muslims alike can do to help curb this seemingly unending violence?
I believe part of the problem is that many people here hold grudges against other people because of their views. I'd even go further and say that they enjoy themselves when other people who seem to be getting bashed on the other side. Hence, the silence. I agree that everyone has a difference of opinion but some individuals don't know the concept of 'let go'. I regret to inform you that our beloved prophet taught us to be sincere in our arguments and us muslims have lost all that.

The silence on this board also stems from generalization. (Once again I dont mean to group anyone here) Many people relate Jihad and Terrorism to have the same definition. In a similar manner many members regard any opposition against Islam to be related to the US [More so the west]. What I'm trying to convey is that this is a clear sign of frustration of having to constantly repeat something.

If both parties have stopped criticizing each other's belief [likely never to happen] then it would be the beginning of a spectacular era. The whole end of times issue plays a major role in this too. Muslims believe Mahdi (a.s) will come and Jews believe their Mosiach to descend and likewise, Christians expect Jesus to descend from the heavens. In a concrete manner, all three parties are preparing for an unevitable battle. Anyway, that is an issue for another thread.
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MTAFFI
04-18-2007, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noodles
I believe part of the problem is that many people here hold grudges against other people because of their views. I'd even go further and say that they enjoy themselves when other people who seem to be getting bashed on the other side. Hence, the silence. I agree that everyone has a difference of opinion but some individuals don't know the concept of 'let go'. I regret to inform you that our beloved prophet taught us to be sincere in our arguments and us muslims have lost all that.

The silence on this board also stems from generalization. (Once again I dont mean to group anyone here) Many people relate Jihad and Terrorism to have the same definition. In a similar manner many members regard any opposition against Islam to be related to the US [More so the west]. What I'm trying to convey is that this is a clear sign of frustration of having to constantly repeat something.

If both parties have stopped criticizing each other's belief [likely never to happen] then it would be the beginning of a spectacular era. The whole end of times issue plays a major role in this too. Muslims believe Mahdi (a.s) will come and Jews believe their Mosiach to descend and likewise, Christians expect Jesus to descend from the heavens. In a concrete manner, all three parties are preparing for an unevitable battle. Anyway, that is an issue for another thread.
I think that you could be right in some aspects, I think that grudges with between certain people could create a silence, but when a Muslim sees another Muslim condoning or brushing off the violence that we are talking about, do they not have an obligation to intervene and set the record straight? I think it would be really helpful, I know whenever I see violence of any type, no matter who posts it, I will condemn it and speak out against it for what is right, without that, in my eyes, the line between right and wrong will slowly disappear. I know everytime that there is a discussion on here about civilian death or suicide attacks there will typically be at least 1 muslim to come forward and say it is wrong, this usually in turn makes me think that not everyone is a certain way and really helps me to cool out and take a different view of the situation (not agree with the others side) and realize it is ignorance and stupidity talking, not Islam.
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wilberhum
04-18-2007, 09:33 PM
Maybe there is some hope.

Mass rally against Pakistan mosquehttp://<br /> <br /> http://engli...B25000F1BF.htm
Tens of thousands of people have taken to the streets of Karachi to show their opposition to a radical mosque which has begun an anti-vice campaign in the capital, Islamabad.
Mazhar Hussain, a Karachi police official, said about 100,000 people had attended the rally, with many protesters chanting, "No to extremism".
Lal Masjid announced earlier this month that a court had been set up to deliver justice according to Sharia Islamic law. Clerics at the mosque threaten to retaliate with suicide bombers if the government tried to suppress the movement.
It is really scary that Clerics would use suicide bombers. :raging:
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Abu Zakariya
04-18-2007, 09:50 PM
I think it is really ignorant to say that anything isn't being done.

Except for the fatwas against terrorism, there are some that are involved in actually stopping terrorists and showing potential terrorists that they are wrong. One example is Shayhk al-Ubaykan who is involved in reforming those that were arrested for being potential terrorists.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with him:

(Q) How does one evaluate ideological modification of wanted suspects, some of whom are imprisoned, and how is this process of thought-purification conducted?

(A) The counseling is conducted through discussions in appropriate settings during which the prisoner talks about his beliefs and the evidence verifying them, which we in turn discuss and modify, explaining the true meaning of the evidence he provides as proof for his beliefs. Many, thank God, change their viewpoints in one session. Afterwards, a report is written stating that counseling and discussion has been conducted. In the report, we include what this person's former ideas were and how they have changed and we then recommend his release. Some have been released and even come to visit me at the mosque every now and then.


And these are the scholars. As for outcry among regular Muslims, there have been many demonstrations (which is sometimes what I've heard non-Muslims calling for), where hundreds of thousands of Muslims have gathered to demonstrate against terrorism.
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Muhammad
04-18-2007, 10:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I know on this site alone I have seen many posts in regard to the "evil west" or references to violence being OK. Many times when this sort of language or dialogue is posted you really dont see any Muslims disagreeing with it, and that is just on this site, and in fact typically when that happens a few others will join in on the bashing as well. So witnessing this, what is one to think, if people dont even stand up to these type of thing on this website, what would lead us to believe it is being done elsewhere?
People do sometimes step out of line, but I have seen many times that these views are opposed. Muslims do disagree when Islam is being portrayed inaccurately and you are right that they are obliged to do so.

Incidentally, today I came across some booklets that were being distributed for free, entitled: 'Islam, A Religion of Terror?'. And this was being done in light of recent local and world events, covering topics such as Jihad, the media, suicide bombings and extremism. It was quite reassuring to see that Muslims are still working on clearing up misconceptions and building bridges, and that everyone is working in their own way. Quite a good timing considering we were talking about it in this thread!

Peace.
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MTAFFI
04-19-2007, 02:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
I think it is really ignorant to say that anything isn't being done.
No one said that

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
Except for the fatwas against terrorism, there are some that are involved in actually stopping terrorists and showing potential terrorists that they are wrong. One example is Shayhk al-Ubaykan who is involved in reforming those that were arrested for being potential terrorists.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with him:

(Q) How does one evaluate ideological modification of wanted suspects, some of whom are imprisoned, and how is this process of thought-purification conducted?

(A) The counseling is conducted through discussions in appropriate settings during which the prisoner talks about his beliefs and the evidence verifying them, which we in turn discuss and modify, explaining the true meaning of the evidence he provides as proof for his beliefs. Many, thank God, change their viewpoints in one session. Afterwards, a report is written stating that counseling and discussion has been conducted. In the report, we include what this person's former ideas were and how they have changed and we then recommend his release. Some have been released and even come to visit me at the mosque every now and then.


And these are the scholars. As for outcry among regular Muslims, there have been many demonstrations (which is sometimes what I've heard non-Muslims calling for), where hundreds of thousands of Muslims have gathered to demonstrate against terrorism.
Do you feel the Muslim community is doing enough, if so why? If not why?
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Abu Zakariya
04-19-2007, 02:34 PM
Do you feel the Muslim community is doing enough, if so why? If not why?
Basically all Muslims I know, especially the ones in leadership positions, have spoken out against terrorism and tried to explain how it isn't Islamically correct.

Of course there are people with the extreme opinions, but they are obscure and we need to reach out to them and convince them to stop. As you see, in Saudi Arabia the scholars are involved in reforming the people with these extreme opinions and the scholars and Muslim leaders are trying to educate the Muslims in general. But, because there are still Muslims that have these opinions I would say no, we aren't doing enough. Enough isn't being done until we see a stop to the various suicide bombings killing innocent civilians etcetera. Then we will have done enough.
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MTAFFI
04-19-2007, 02:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Zakariya
But, because there are still Muslims that have these opinions I would say no, we aren't doing enough. Enough isn't being done until we see a stop to the various suicide bombings killing innocent civilians etcetera. Then we will have done enough.
So the real questions should be, what can Muslims do more? Also what can non Muslims do to help the Muslims with this? I realize that nothing huge will probably come of this, since we are just posting on a forum on a website, but I just like to gather this type of information for intelligent conversation and for my own personal reasons :)
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Abu Zakariya
04-19-2007, 03:16 PM
I would say that Muslims should refer to the mainstream scholars that are accepted by the Muslim community and they should point to their fatwas against terrorism so that they know the Islamic position on this issue.

Also, I might mention that Shaykh al-Ubaykan said in one of his fatwas (which you can read here), that Muslims should cooperate with the police to stop potential acts of terrorism. Read the fatwa because he gives a few guidelines to Muslims what they can do.

As for what non-Muslims can do, I would say that since a lot of these Muslims with extreme opinions acquire these opinions in the first place because of a feeling that Muslims are opressed in the world and that the West is against them, you could show them that you are a good person and don't have anything against Muslims so that he can see for himself how it is. That way, he can see that everything isn't black and white and that all non-Muslims aren't the enemies of Muslims.
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Muezzin
04-19-2007, 03:26 PM
There does need to be less of a condescending attitude towards genuine Muslim grievances, too. Take Lebanon for example - the (stereo)typical non-Muslim reaction? Something to the effect of: 'Silly Lebanese, they shouldn't have started it, they deserve what they get and Israel is completely justified'

Or when British servicemen were caught beating up Iraqi children on camera? 'Silly kids, they shouldn't have provoked them, the soldiers' actions are justified' - that sort of reaction is evident in certain posts on this forum, and disturbs me. To me, it's just the same as Muslims denying the existence of certain terrorist groups who kill based on some twisted interpretation of Islam. One extreme is the 'crazy militant Muslim' and the other is the 'crazy far right Westerner', and both tend to either flatly deny, or justify wrongdoing.

So, yes, Muslims do need to continue publically condemning atrocities committed by so-called 'Islamic' terrorists, as well as continue to privately teach the Muslim community that such actions are wrong and have no basis in Islam. At the same time, there needs to be genuine understanding of legitimate Muslim grievances, not offhand sarcastic remarks to the effect of 'peh, they deserved it'. I mean, I'm pretty a dang laidback kinda guy, so if caustic remarks like that deeply offend me, imagine how crazy militants react.
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Keltoi
04-19-2007, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
There does need to be less of a condescending attitude towards genuine Muslim grievances, too. Take Lebanon for example - the (stereo)typical non-Muslim reaction? Something to the effect of: 'Silly Lebanese, they shouldn't have started it, they deserve what they get and Israel is completely justified'

Or when British servicemen were caught beating up Iraqi children on camera? 'Silly kids, they shouldn't have provoked them, the soldiers' actions are justified' - that sort of reaction is evident in certain posts on this forum, and disturbs me. To me, it's just the same as Muslims denying the existence of certain terrorist groups who kill based on some twisted interpretation of Islam. One extreme is the 'crazy militant Muslim' and the other is the 'crazy far right Westerner', and both tend to either flatly deny, or justify wrongdoing.

So, yes, Muslims do need to continue publically condemning atrocities committed by so-called 'Islamic' terrorists, as well as continue to privately teach the Muslim community that such actions are wrong and have no basis in Islam. At the same time, there needs to be genuine understanding of legitimate Muslim grievances, not offhand sarcastic remarks to the effect of 'peh, they deserved it'. I mean, I'm pretty a dang laidback kinda guy, so if caustic remarks like that deeply offend me, imagine how crazy militants react.
On the subject of Western reactions to Muslim grievances, you are probably correct. Westerners are usually arrogant in the way they view the world, whether intentionally or not. As an American, when I saw the British soldiers beating up the Iraqi "kids", although I think that word is misleading, I was disturbed. More by the narrative of the cameraman than the act itself. You make a good point though, because I have been guilty of denouncing these actions and throwing in my own "but" monkey, "but we don't know the full story", or something of the like. Events such as the video in question should be condemned by all sides without excuse or justification.
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MTAFFI
04-19-2007, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
On the subject of Western reactions to Muslim grievances, you are probably correct. Westerners are usually arrogant in the way they view the world, whether intentionally or not. As an American, when I saw the British soldiers beating up the Iraqi "kids", although I think that word is misleading, I was disturbed. More by the narrative of the cameraman than the act itself. You make a good point though, because I have been guilty of denouncing these actions and throwing in my own "but" monkey, "but we don't know the full story", or something of the like. Events such as the video in question should be condemned by all sides without excuse or justification.
I have to agree with you Keltoi, I have done the same thing numerous times myself. I will try to be better about that, I will be interested to see the different reactions that may be recieved.
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Woodrow
04-19-2007, 05:10 PM
In my opinion what non-Muslims can do to help is recognize it is not a Muslim problem per say. the causes of the problem go beyond the religion. The problem is the conditions in the mid-eastern countries. It is true that in the Mid-East the majority of the people are Muslim. but the fact they are Muslim is not the cause of terrorism. The problem would exist if the conditions were the same and the people were of any religion.

The majority of the Muslims identified as terrorists come from the mid- East. But, it is only a small minority of the worlds Muslims that are from the Mid-East. It would be far better to label them as Mid_Eastern Terrorist and not as Islamic terrorists if labels are to be made. But, in my opinion terrorist are just that terrorists, with no qualifying adjective.

A Muslim terrorist from Saudi Arabia is no different then a Anglo-Saxon terrorist in the USA who blows up abortion clinics. It is not because he calls himself a Christian that causes him to do it, it is because he is a terrorist.

Instead of asking what can the Muslims do to stop Muslims from committing acts, the question should be what can people do to stop people from being terrorists.

But, as Muslims we are doing things to reach our Brothers and sisters. Only problem is we can only reach those who are sincere Muslims and who practice Islam as it is to be practiced. For that matter if all Muslims practiced Islam there would be no Muslim terrorists. Now, can we do More? Of course we can, more can always be done. The question is what can we do that would be effective?

I believe an important step that all people can help with is to first drop the labels. Stop referring to them as Muslim Terrorists and call them what they are TERRORISTS.

A loss of the label in itself would eliminate some misguided wannabes who are trying to seek glory. the label alone is enough to bring some wackos out of the wood work.
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Muezzin
04-20-2007, 12:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
On the subject of Western reactions to Muslim grievances, you are probably correct. Westerners are usually arrogant in the way they view the world, whether intentionally or not. As an American, when I saw the British soldiers beating up the Iraqi "kids", although I think that word is misleading, I was disturbed. More by the narrative of the cameraman than the act itself. You make a good point though, because I have been guilty of denouncing these actions and throwing in my own "but" monkey, "but we don't know the full story", or something of the like. Events such as the video in question should be condemned by all sides without excuse or justification.
There's nothing wrong with seeing things from all sides. It's an admirable quality which requires bravery in certain circumstances since it threatens to upset the (social) status quo. But there's a difference between that and flatly denying the veracity of any side but our own. We're all guilty of such bias to some degree, especially when it comes to politics, but we can all improve too.

format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
I have to agree with you Keltoi, I have done the same thing numerous times myself. I will try to be better about that, I will be interested to see the different reactions that may be recieved.
Thank you. It would be very much appreciated.

I try to stay as even-handed as possible when it comes to world affairs, but if I slip up, don't hesitate to tell me.

Maybe if we can all learn that understanding is not the same as approval, we wouldn't see so much conflict in this particular section for starters. I've seen Muslims denounce terrorism while saying that terrorists do nevertheless have legitimate reasons - however, the way Middle Eastern terrorists go about solving problems is not only completely un-Islamic and immoral, it's also counter-productive. Some non-Muslims misinterpret this understanding of reasons as an approval of methods. I guess that in itself is understandable, but it's still incorrect to assume just because, say, someone understands why a thief stole a guy's wallet, that that someone must be sympathising with the thief.

I mean, I can understand why people become heroin addicts, or commit suicide, but that doesn't mean I approve of their actions.

Maybe I'm overreacting. It is something I've noticed with some people, but maybe they are exceptions.
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-21-2007, 01:54 AM
Who are we to tell how palestinians or iraqis how they should be fighting? If we are so righteous as to judge them, then we should be there fighting with them, as long as we sit in our comfortable chairs, we should really shut up, we don't know what is it like when you wake up in the morning and your home is buldozed to the ground and you have no idea how are you gonna survive, or when you loved ones being taken away and tortured, we can only imagine.
Here is an idea - why don't all of ya righteous ones go fight in iraq or palestine, go face world sole superpower and see how it's like and then come back and rant if you'll be alive and mentally well(unlikely).
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-21-2007, 02:04 AM
in Saudi Arabia the scholars are involved in reforming the people with these extreme opinions and the scholars and Muslim leaders are trying to educate the Muslims in general.
Are they also educating about their corrupt un-islamic saudi government, sitting in golden toilets, spending billions on yachts and saying -"no jihad in palestine", housing soldiers who go and rape iraqis in a neighbour muslim country? I wonder what they say, actually I don't, puppet imams and their fatwas shouldn't even bother normal muslims with some self-esteem and at least
little bit of pride.
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MTAFFI
04-21-2007, 03:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
Who are we to tell how palestinians or iraqis how they should be fighting? If we are so righteous as to judge them, then we should be there fighting with them, as long as we sit in our comfortable chairs, we should really shut up, we don't know what is it like when you wake up in the morning and your home is buldozed to the ground and you have no idea how are you gonna survive, or when you loved ones being taken away and tortured, we can only imagine.
Here is an idea - why don't all of ya righteous ones go fight in iraq or palestine, go face world sole superpower and see how it's like and then come back and rant if you'll be alive and mentally well(unlikely).
Why is it that I should go and fight to know what is right and wrong? I can understand those who fight the US or Israel, I can understand their frustration, I understand they just want their land, but their are two problems with this. One, in Iraq, the majority of the people being killed are not the US or US allies, they are innocent civilians, this is not Islamic, as far as I know. They are killing women children and the elderly and again this is not islamic. Even if it were Islamic, it still wouldnt be right and that is why I started this thread. Two, the palestinians and the Israelis are both in the wrong, I wouldnt fight on either side, because they are both heartless and to me disgusting right now. Neither side wants to give and both sides harbor more hate for one another than probably anywhere else in the world. Also I am not judging anyone I am just gathering information for my own reasons, as to what would need to take place to end the violence in these troubled areas of the world. You speak of torture and this and that, do you not think it goes both ways? Try to take a look on the other side of the road sometime

You come in here with your condesending tone and your comments about going to fight, you are part of the reason the world is as it is today. Instead of telling everyone how righteous they are and telling how no one understands, why dont you try and come up with something constructive like how to stop the fighting rather than going and furthering it along? I would be willing to bet that most of the people that have responded on this thread have a far better understanding of the world around them than you do
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-21-2007, 10:23 PM
Why is it that I should go and fight to know what is right and wrong?
Where did I say that you should go and fight? I was referring to muslims, not you.

I can understand those who fight the US or Israel, I can understand their frustration, I understand they just want their land, but their are two problems with this. One, in Iraq, the majority of the people being killed are not the US or US allies, they are innocent civilians, this is not Islamic, as far as I know. They are killing women children and the elderly and again this is not islamic. Even if it were Islamic, it still wouldnt be right and that is why I started this thread.
I'm talking about people fighting occupation, not the ones killing each other, I think that's stupid, there's an invading army and they kill each other, even more stupid is suicide bombing in Iraq, you can bomb something almost as efficient as if you killed yourself, but you will live and can do it again, what's the point anyway? Just from combat efficiency point of view.
As if starting this thread changes anything.
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Muezzin
04-21-2007, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
I'm talking about people fighting occupation, not the ones killing each other, I think that's stupid, there's an invading army and they kill each other, even more stupid is suicide bombing in Iraq, you can bomb something almost as efficient as if you killed yourself, but you will live and can do it again, what's the point anyway? Just from combat efficiency point of view.
There's that, and the fact that suicide (and murder of civilians) is haraam. That's not a judgement call about Palestinians, it's just a fact - if people chose to bomb military targets, there would be nothing wrong with it. Muslims all over the world sympathise with the Palestinians, cry for them, pray for them, but because some say suicide bombing of civilians is wrong in Islam, you get offended? Are you equating condemnation of certain methods as a lack of sympathy?
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-22-2007, 12:31 AM
but because some say suicide bombing of civilians is wrong in Islam, you get offended?
Don't care enough about what people type on their keyboards to get offended, never said anything specific about condoning or condemning suicide bombings on civilians, The thread is about appologizing, our non-muslim users feel we dont apologize enough for what some muslims are doing or appear to be doing.

Are you equating condemnation of certain methods as a lack of sympathy?
As if we don't know that muslims generally don't follow basics of islam, as if we dont know that killings of civilians is wrong, it's obviuos, that's not the point.
Muslims are getting killed and have to apologize? Really? Some pocket "imams" in puppet government lead countries *cough*saudi arabia*cough* suppose to tell us what to do? While they are silently at best, mostly vocally praising one of the most pathetic and un-islamic governments in islamic world(after Turkey maybe)?

I'm amazed at some muslims here who even bring those pocket "imams" up in a positive way.
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Keltoi
04-22-2007, 12:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
Don't care enough about what people type on their keyboards to get offended, never said anything specific about condoning or condemning suicide bombings on civilians, The thread is about appologizing, our non-muslim users feel we dont apologize enough for what some muslims are doing or appear to be doing.



As if we don't know that muslims generally don't follow basics of islam, as if we dont know that killings of civilians is wrong, it's obviuos, that's not the point.
Muslims are getting killed and have to apologize? Really? Some pocket "imams" in puppet government lead countries *cough*saudi arabia*cough* suppose to tell us what to do? While they are silently at best, mostly vocally praising one of the most pathetic and un-islamic governments in islamic world(after Turkey maybe)?

I'm amazed at some muslims here who even bring those pocket "imams" up in a positive way.
"Pocket" Imams meaning what? That is beside the point though. The point is not that people in Muslim countries fight militaries. The right and wrong of that is a political opinion, but the real issue is the targeting of civilians, which seems to be the method of choice by the majority of these groups. I don't care if Muslims "apologize", I do care that Muslims acknowledge that these tactics do not and cannot be associated with their religion. You say it is "obvious" that they don't. It might be obvious to you, but those who commit these acts believe otherwise, and it would be foolish to suggest that they are the only ones who share that belief.
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-22-2007, 12:56 AM
but because some say suicide bombing of civilians is wrong in Islam, you get offended?
Don't care enough about what people type on their keyboards to get offended, never said anything specific about condoning or condemning suicide bombings on civilians, The thread is about appologizing, our non-muslim users feel we dont apologize enough for what some muslims are doing or appear to be doing.

Are you equating condemnation of certain methods as a lack of sympathy?
As if we don't know that muslims generally don't follow basics of islam, as if we dont know that killings of civilians is wrong, it's obviuos, that's not the point.
Muslims are getting killed and have to apologize? Really? Some pocket "imams" in puppet government lead countries *cough*saudi arabia*cough* suppose to tell us what to do? While they are silently at best, mostly vocally praising one of the most pathetic and un-islamic governments in islamic world(after Turkey maybe)?

I'm amazed at some muslims here who even bring those pocket "imams" up in a positive way.
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MTAFFI
04-22-2007, 07:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
Don't care enough about what people type on their keyboards to get offended, never said anything specific about condoning or condemning suicide bombings on civilians, The thread is about appologizing, our non-muslim users feel we dont apologize enough for what some muslims are doing or appear to be doing.



As if we don't know that muslims generally don't follow basics of islam, as if we dont know that killings of civilians is wrong, it's obviuos, that's not the point.
Muslims are getting killed and have to apologize? Really? Some pocket "imams" in puppet government lead countries *cough*saudi arabia*cough* suppose to tell us what to do? While they are silently at best, mostly vocally praising one of the most pathetic and un-islamic governments in islamic world(after Turkey maybe)?

I'm amazed at some muslims here who even bring those pocket "imams" up in a positive way.

If you care so little, then why did you bother to post on this thread? This thread wasnt created for apologies. Muslims dont need to apologize they need to separate themselves from these people, the people you refer to as "pocket imams" speak out for peace, whether their government is corrupt or whatever, what does it matter? Is peace not the main objective, or would you rather just live at war with the world? Call them what you want but they are right. Thank you for posting though, you are just an example of why this thread was created
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-23-2007, 09:59 PM
Thank you for posting though, you are just an example of why this thread was created
You're welcome! Proud to be an example:D , threads like this really change a lot and bring better understanding between us, I can almost physically feel how peace feels the world, it's amazing:thumbs_up
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Muezzin
04-23-2007, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
You're welcome! Proud to be an example:D , threads like this really change a lot and bring better understanding between us, I can almost physically feel how peace feels the world, it's amazing:thumbs_up
Nothing on an Internet forum can really change the world.

People who post on them have that understanding. Discussions, attitudes or 'solutions' reached between a limited 'community' may then be disseminated in the wider (i.e. real life) community.
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-23-2007, 11:21 PM
Well it's time to get rid yourself of these illusions, what we type here doesn't really change anything but a few people's opinions in the very best case(rarely happens), what usually happens is - everyone is trying to prove their own position, in the end we all will have the same position we started from.
So in other words, majority for most of us it's like a hobby, a need to express your opinion and argue a little bit, vent our anger or just rant, like me for instance.
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Muezzin
04-23-2007, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Khan-Ghalgha
Well it's time to get rid yourself of these illusions,
Illusions? Dude, you're agreeing with what I said. You'll be able to see that if you chill out for two seconds.

what we type here doesn't really change anything but a few people's opinions in the very best case(rarely happens), what usually happens is - everyone is trying to prove their own position, in the end we all will have the same position we started from.
So in other words, majority for most of us it's like a hobby, a need to express your opinion and argue a little bit, vent our anger or just rant, like me for instance.
Fair enough. But if you have nothing constructive to add to this thread, other than words to the effect of 'the internet is useless, message forums are useless, and I'm only posting because I need to vent, grr', then I suggest you stop posting on this thread as of such stuff constitutes spam, quite frankly.
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-24-2007, 12:07 AM
Well I don't pretend that what I type here is actually that important, what's the difference between spam and constructiveness then? I can easily argue that about 80-90% of all posts here are purely spam.

People keep posting, it means they like it or feel the need to, but let's be real - it just what it is, people's opinion's and arguments, sometimes discussion, subtle but mostly open bashing.... anyway one more useless post from me. peace out.
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Keltoi
04-24-2007, 12:38 AM
It's called sharing views, or even communication. It is what humans do.
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Khan-Ghalgha
04-24-2007, 12:53 AM
Gotta try that, thanks for pointing that out, I might become a normal human being some day!
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Bittersteel
04-24-2007, 12:31 PM
Sometimes I think many Muslims are afraid to give their honest feelings about many of the terrorist acts committed in the name of their religion because by doing so they might appear to be condoning political actions they don't agree with. Like the Iraq War.
in war people dies.death is inevitable.no it wasn't taught by me from some mUllah or any religious book,but I learnt it from an American,who felt sorry for two US Marines responsible for killing two women in a car mistaking them as insurgents;yet he had no sympathy for the two women(his words directly).
If an insurgent beheads a US serviceman I wouldn't care.and that includes western reporters too(yes I am kind of racist).

Gen Bargewell said statements taken from those involved suggested the marines thought "Iraqi civilian lives are not as important as US lives, their deaths are just the cost of doing business, and that the marines need to get 'the job done' no matter what it takes".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6579511.stm
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