Silence, acceptance and approval

Since 2001 suicide bombings, mass graves, executions, abductions, car bombs and other methods of indiscriminate killing have been heavily reported in the news world wide. The extremely vast majority of these outrageous attacks have been made by Muslim people, often labeled as radical, extreme or otherwise by the media and different governments. I have personally followed much of this conflict as I feel it affects everyone whether they be in Iraq, Afghanistan or the US or China for that matter, the death of another human should, at least, affect us all.

The real problem that I have with this is as of yet there has not been any real public outcry by the Muslim community to stop these heinous acts of violence. Sure, there are forums out there and there are a couple of news agencies who have quoted Imams and scholars and other religious figures as saying simply Islam doesnt condone violence, but there has not been any "real" action or attempt to curb this violence and make it known to the world that this is not the Islamic way, which I believe is in a very large part why these attacks continue each day.

I know that the Muslim community in general is not bad and does not vocally condone this behavior, but not saying anything in the state of the world today, to me, is as bad as promoting it as the right thing to do. In fact, I would venture to say that their are more people promoting this twisted form of "jihad" than those who are actually speaking out or acting out against it. This is where I believe the source of the problem is, without the Muslim community in full support of stopping this violence it will never stop. There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, why do none speak up? Your brothers and sisters, Muslim and non Muslim, are dying every day and for what? What is being accomplished? Our children see this violence and no one is saying it is wrong, what do you think they will grow up to do? Is that what you wish for our children and their children? I personally do not.

Many may say that, for example, Christianity is not free from violence or indiscriminate killing and this is very true. In fact, it is true for any group, organization or otherwise to have some bad seeds, but it is the responsiblity of that group to distance themselves and set themselves apart from those commiting the atrocites. Take the KKK for example, they claimed to be a Christian group, however the Christians denounced their acts of hatred and publicly excommunicated anyone associated with them from the church. The were likened with the devil and eventually lost all authority, support and power, and what was once a group of over 1 million people is today a mere 3,000. That is the power of the voice and a group of people banning together to rid the world of something like this.

I would like to ask Muslims to protest, nonviolently, against the violent and life ending actions taken by the people in places like Iraq, speak with your religious leaders about speaking publicly to news stations and the media to show not only the rest of the world, but those committing these attacks that it is not Islam and that you will not be associated with such stupidity and lack of respect for human life.

PEACE

Perfectly valid observations and criticisms.

I agree more imams need to come out and make themselves heard. I also think, simultaneously, we as Muslims should continue to teach our children that the kind of mindless violence terrorists reap is completely wrong.

We can all do our part simply by being good people, and explaining to others that the terrorists who hide behind Islam are unjustified when they attack civilians. That sort of thing goes completely against Islam.

A more truthful account by Robert Fisk receiver of the "British Press Awards"

I believe any civil unrest or bombing, or chaos has America written on it!

Seen through a Syrian lens, 'unknown Americans' are provoking civil war in Iraq
By Robert Fisk - 28 April 2006

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article360624.ece

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12885.htm

In Syria, the world appears through a glass, darkly. As dark as the smoked windows of the car which takes me to a building on the western side of Damascus where a man I have known for 15 years - we shall call him a "security source", which is the name given by American correspondents to their own powerful intelligence officers - waits with his own ferocious narrative of disaster in Iraq and dangers in the Middle East.

His is a fearful portrait of an America trapped in the bloody sands of Iraq, desperately trying to provoke a civil war around Baghdad in order to reduce its own military casualties. It is a scenario in which Saddam Hussein remains Washington's best friend, in which Syria has struck at the Iraqi insurgents with a ruthlessness that the United States wilfully ignores. And in which Syria's Interior Minister, found shot dead in his office last year, committed suicide because of his own mental instability.

The Americans, my interlocutor suspected, are trying to provoke an Iraqi civil war so that Sunni Muslim insurgents spend their energies killing their Shia co-religionists rather than soldiers of the Western occupation forces. "I swear to you that we have very good information," my source says, finger stabbing the air in front of him. "One young Iraqi man told us that he was trained by the Americans as a policeman in Baghdad and he spent 70 per cent of his time learning to drive and 30 per cent in weapons training. They said to him: 'Come back in a week.' When he went back, they gave him a mobile phone and told him to drive into a crowded area near a mosque and phone them. He waited in the car but couldn't get the right mobile signal. So he got out of the car to where he received a better signal. Then his car blew up."

Impossible, I think to myself. But then I remember how many times Iraqis in Baghdad have told me similar stories. These reports are believed even if they seem unbelievable. And I know where much of the Syrian information is gleaned: from the tens of thousands of Shia Muslim pilgrims who come to pray at the Sayda Zeinab mosque outside Damascus. These men and women come from the slums of Baghdad, Hillah and Iskandariyah as well as the cities of Najaf and Basra. Sunnis from Fallujah and Ramadi also visit Damascus to see friends and relatives and talk freely of American tactics in Iraq.

"There was another man, trained by the Americans for the police. He too was given a mobile and told to drive to an area where there was a crowd - maybe a protest - and to call them and tell them what was happening. Again, his new mobile was not working. So he went to a landline phone and called the Americans and told them: 'Here I am, in the place you sent me and I can tell you what's happening here.' And at that moment there was a big explosion in his car."

Just who these "Americans" might be, my source did not say. In the anarchic and panic-stricken world of Iraq, there are many US groups - including countless outfits supposedly working for the American military and the new Western-backed Iraqi Interior Ministry - who operate outside any laws or rules. No one can account for the murder of 191 university teachers and professors since the 2003 invasion - nor the fact that more than 50 former Iraqi fighter-bomber pilots who attacked Iran in the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war have been assassinated in their home towns in Iraq in the past three years.

Amid this chaos, a colleague of my source asked me, how could Syria be expected to lessen the number of attacks on Americans inside Iraq? "It was never safe, our border," he said. "During Saddam's time, criminals and Saddam's terrorists crossed our borders to attack our government. I built a wall of earth and sand along the border at that time. But three car bombs from Saddam's agents exploded in Damascus and Tartous- I was the one who captured the criminals responsible. But we couldn't stop them."

Now, he told me, the rampart running for hundreds of miles along Syria's border with Iraq had been heightened. "I have had barbed wire put on top and up to now we have caught 1,500 non-Syrian and non-Iraqi Arabs trying to cross and we have stopped 2,700 Syrians from crossing ... Our army is there - but the Iraqi army and the Americans are not there on the other side."

Behind these grave suspicions in Damascus lies the memory of Saddam's long friendship with the United States. "Our Hafez el-Assad [the former Syrian president who died in 2000] learnt that Saddam, in his early days, met with American officials 20 times in four weeks. This convinced Assad that, in his words, 'Saddam is with the Americans'. Saddam was the biggest helper of the Americans in the Middle East (when he attacked Iran in 1980) after the fall of the Shah. And he still is! After all, he brought the Americans to Iraq!"

So I turn to a story which is more distressing for my sources: the death by shooting of Brigadier General Ghazi Kenaan, former head of Syrian military intelligence in Lebanon - an awesomely powerful position - and Syrian Minister of Interior when his suicide was announced by the Damascus government last year.

Widespread rumours outside Syria suggested that Kenaan was suspected by UN investigators of involvement in the murder of the former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri in a massive car bomb in Beirut last year - and that he had been "suicided" by Syrian government agents to prevent him telling the truth.

Not so, insisted my original interlocutor. "General Ghazi was a man who believed he could give orders and anything he wanted would happen. Something happened that he could not reconcile - something that made him realise he was not all-powerful. On the day of his death, he went to his office at the Interior Ministry and then he left and went home for half an hour. Then he came back with a pistol. He left a message for his wife in which he said goodbye to her and asked her to look after their children and he said that what he was going to do was 'for the good of Syria'. Then he shot himself in the mouth."

Of Hariri's assassination, Syrian officials like to recall his relationship with the former Iraqi interim prime minister Iyad Alawi - a self-confessed former agent for the CIA and MI6 - and an alleged $20bn arms deal between the Russians and Saudi Arabia in which they claim Hariri was involved.

Hariri's Lebanese supporters continue to dismiss the Syrian argument on the grounds that Syria had identified Hariri as the joint author with his friend, French President Jacques Chirac, of the UN Security Council resolution which demanded the retreat of the Syrians from Lebanese territory.

But if the Syrians are understandably obsessed with the American occupation of Iraq, their long hatred for Saddam - something which they shared with most Iraqis - is still intact. When I asked my first "security" source what would happen to the former Iraqi dictator, he replied, banging his fist into his hand: "He will be killed. He will be killed. He will be killed."

MTAFFI said:

Since 2001 suicide bombings, mass graves, executions, abductions, car bombs and other methods of indiscriminate killing have been heavily reported in the news world wide. The extremely vast majority of these outrageous attacks have been made by Muslim people, often labeled as radical, extreme or otherwise by the media and different governments. I have personally followed much of this conflict as I feel it affects everyone whether they be in Iraq, Afghanistan or the US or China for that matter, the death of another human should, at least, affect us all.

The real problem that I have with this is as of yet there has not been any real public outcry by the Muslim community to stop these heinous acts of violence. Sure, there are forums out there and there are a couple of news agencies who have quoted Imams and scholars and other religious figures as saying simply Islam doesnt condone violence, but there has not been any "real" action or attempt to curb this violence and make it known to the world that this is not the Islamic way, which I believe is in a very large part why these attacks continue each day.

I know that the Muslim community in general is not bad and does not vocally condone this behavior, but not saying anything in the state of the world today, to me, is as bad as promoting it as the right thing to do. In fact, I would venture to say that their are more people promoting this twisted form of "jihad" than those who are actually speaking out or acting out against it. This is where I believe the source of the problem is, without the Muslim community in full support of stopping this violence it will never stop. There are 1.2 billion muslims in the world, why do none speak up? Your brothers and sisters, Muslim and non Muslim, are dying every day and for what? What is being accomplished? Our children see this violence and no one is saying it is wrong, what do you think they will grow up to do? Is that what you wish for our children and their children? I personally do not.

Many may say that, for example, Christianity is not free from violence or indiscriminate killing and this is very true. In fact, it is true for any group, organization or otherwise to have some bad seeds, but it is the responsiblity of that group to distance themselves and set themselves apart from those commiting the atrocites. Take the KKK for example, they claimed to be a Christian group, however the Christians denounced their acts of hatred and publicly excommunicated anyone associated with them from the church. The were likened with the devil and eventually lost all authority, support and power, and what was once a group of over 1 million people is today a mere 3,000. That is the power of the voice and a group of people banning together to rid the world of something like this.

I would like to ask Muslims to protest, nonviolently, against the violent and life ending actions taken by the people in places like Iraq, speak with your religious leaders about speaking publicly to news stations and the media to show not only the rest of the world, but those committing these attacks that it is not Islam and that you will not be associated with such stupidity and lack of respect for human life.

PEACE

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muslims should and have condemned terror attacks, in jordan they had a march telling zarqawi to go to hell, countless islamic orginizations and imams have spoken out against terror attacks. some of the very top scholars in saudia arabia, such as bin baz called bin laden a heretic and condemned his attacks etc etc, so please stop saying the muslims should be doing more, they have spoke out against terrorism time and time again, fatwas have also been released against terror acts etc etc, so just because it doesnt get reported in your news (which isnt suprising) doesnt mean its not being said. but i do believe muslims should have a big march in usa and uk to set the record straight once and for all as this will get alot of attention, hopefully they will do it soon.

but at the same time you should do your part, you keep calling on muslims to join your 'side' yet at the same time you have fox news spewing so much anti-muslim propaganda, you have major conservative sites and orginizations making t-shirts saying nuke Makkah, and then you have all the cartoons mocking the prophet Muhammad etc, so this shouldnt be just muslims, westeners should also do their part to condemn the non stop propaganda attacks against muslims going on 24-7, i got the links of all the major american conservative sites attacking muslims saying nuke makkah etc.

What "major" conservative site promotes the "nuke Mecca" shirt? Sounds like a fringe to me. In any event, speech is one thing, violence is another.

The_Prince said:

muslims should and have condemned terror attacks, in jordan they had a march telling zarqawi to go to hell, countless islamic orginizations and imams have spoken out against terror attacks. some of the very top scholars in saudia arabia, such as bin baz called bin laden a heretic and condemned his attacks etc etc, so please stop saying the muslims should be doing more, they have spoke out against terrorism time and time again, fatwas have also been released against terror acts etc etc, so just because it doesnt get reported in your news (which isnt suprising) doesnt mean its not being said. but i do believe muslims should have a big march in usa and uk to set the record straight once and for all as this will get alot of attention, hopefully they will do it soon.

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This march in the US and UK is a huge deal, it is good to hear this and does show that not all Muslims support these acts. And yes there has been a march against Zarqawi in Jordan and a march against Al-Qaeda in Morroco, but all in all you are talking about 300,000 people in all in those two marches, whereas there are over a billion Muslims in the world. You also speak of islamic organizations and Imams speaking out, however how often is this done? Why dont they report this to the media in person, rather than simply issuing a statement? Also, from what I have noticed many times when these people do speak out they are then considered to be an apostate of Islam or "siding with the west" or a liberal or moderate Muslim, what kind of message do you think that sends to the rest of the world?

These things do get reported by the news in the US, and in fact I have seen it reported on Fox news as well. There is just simply not enough of it going on, think about it, everyday there is at least 1 terrorist spreading his word or kill the Kuffar or death to America or fight in Iraq, there is not an imam, islamic organization or even the general muslim population countering that everyday... The muslims are being outspoken by the terrorist, so in my opinion, no you are not doing enough and you need to be more aggressive in taking hold of the situation. A statement by scholars, etc here and there is simply not going to cut it.

The_Prince said:

but at the same time you should do your part, you keep calling on muslims to join your 'side' yet at the same time you have fox news spewing so much anti-muslim propaganda, you have major conservative sites and orginizations making t-shirts saying nuke Makkah, and then you have all the cartoons mocking the prophet Muhammad etc, so this shouldnt be just muslims, westeners should also do their part to condemn the non stop propaganda attacks against muslims going on 24-7, i got the links of all the major american conservative sites attacking muslims saying nuke makkah etc.

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First off, who is this major conservative american site? Secondly, Fox news reports on Muslims negatively because there isnt much to report positively these days, what should they do? Lie and say that Muslims love the US and just want peace, this is just simply not what appears to be the case as reflected in world affairs and even on this very website, at times. However I am not making excuses, anti-muslim propaganda should be stopped as should any retarded t-shirts like the one you mention above. The cartoons however have been stopped, so I will leave that at that. Now as far as the American people reacting to the propaganda and t-shirts, both are a form of free speech, all we can do is condemn it and since I have never seen a shirt on a person that says Nuke Makkah I think most people are condemning that and as far as the news propaganda, well if more Muslims would speak out against what is going on they wouldnt be able to come up with such things if it were evident that the Muslim community was truly against what is going on.

Finally, I would like to say that I never asked Muslims to take "our side". I am asking Muslims to take a stand for what they believe is right, if Muslims believe that what is being done in the world right now is what is right, then say so and it can be dealt with. However, if you do not agree with it (which I hope most dont) then separate yourselves from it and show the rest of the world and these terrorist organizations that these actions are not that of Muslims but that of apostates and warmongers. It should not be an "us" or "them" thing, it should be a right or wrong thing. You tell me

In any event, speech is one thing, violence is another.

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is it?wasn't a Muslim dude arrested in UK for shouting "Death to America"?he was shouting,not firing weapons and yet he was arrested.correct me if I am wrong.
Nuke Mecca and Death to America seems similar to me.

Secondly, Fox news reports on Muslims negatively because there isnt much to report positively these days, what should they do?

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says who?you ever lived in a Muslim country?Just because they aren't reported doesn't mean there aren't positive things happening acroos the Muslim world.there's both good and bad.and negative things aren't only present in the Muslim world,they exist to different extents in all places.

The muslims are being outspoken by the terrorist, so in my opinion, no you are not doing enough and you need to be more aggressive in taking hold of the situation. A statement by scholars, etc here and there is simply not going to cut it.

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sigh,okay what would you like us to do?again this "outspoken"...its your media giving more time to extremists than others.

I have to say I agree with the original poster.

And we could go on forever about well non-muslims did this to us and throwing stones on both sides.

The world will never improve unless people start with themselves first.

And so yes i would be delighted to see and participate in a worldwide Muslim outcry against these things similar to the outcry against the Danish cartoons of Prophet Muhammed pbuh.

I remember a Hadith where one of the companions and the prophet were sitting together and someone was insulting the companion. (I can't remember which companion ..I think it was Abu Bakr a.s.) Anyway the companion remained silent to all the insults for a long time until finally he retaliated with a smart comment to the person insulting him at which point Muhammed pbuh either walked away or got angry (I can't remember sorry). When Muhammed pbuh spoke to the companion later , he said that while the companion was bearing the insults the angels were with him, but when he retaliated , they left immediately.

To me this means that we should always have patience even with those who attack our faith. And with those who make valid suggestions (such as this original poster) , and not get defensive and attack them for it.

Everyone has their sins, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, when we as Muslims start to focus on bettering ourselves and our ummah as opposed to sitting around slating others, then the position of Islam will improve in the world which can only benefit us.

Also I would point out that America (i'm Irish so no affiliation to America) and Europe for that matter have a strong growing population of Muslims and so labelling of 'the West' and 'America' in a general sense in diatribes is really quite frustrating for those of us muslims who live in these areas. Our countries do have some good qualities also. We as Muslims cannot really continue to use these categorisations because we are including our Muslim brethren in these categories.

Salam

MTAFFI said:

This march in the US and UK is a huge deal, it is good to hear this and does show that not all Muslims support these acts. And yes there has been a march against Zarqawi in Jordan and a march against Al-Qaeda in Morroco, but all in all you are talking about 300,000 people in all in those two marches, whereas there are over a billion Muslims in the world. You also speak of islamic organizations and Imams speaking out, however how often is this done? Why dont they report this to the media in person, rather than simply issuing a statement? Also, from what I have noticed many times when these people do speak out they are then considered to be an apostate of Islam or "siding with the west" or a liberal or moderate Muslim, what kind of message do you think that sends to the rest of the world?

These things do get reported by the news in the US, and in fact I have seen it reported on Fox news as well. There is just simply not enough of it going on, think about it, everyday there is at least 1 terrorist spreading his word or kill the Kuffar or death to America or fight in Iraq, there is not an imam, islamic organization or even the general muslim population countering that everyday... The muslims are being outspoken by the terrorist, so in my opinion, no you are not doing enough and you need to be more aggressive in taking hold of the situation. A statement by scholars, etc here and there is simply not going to cut it.




First off, who is this major conservative american site? Secondly, Fox news reports on Muslims negatively because there isnt much to report positively these days, what should they do? Lie and say that Muslims love the US and just want peace, this is just simply not what appears to be the case as reflected in world affairs and even on this very website, at times. However I am not making excuses, anti-muslim propaganda should be stopped as should any retarded t-shirts like the one you mention above. The cartoons however have been stopped, so I will leave that at that. Now as far as the American people reacting to the propaganda and t-shirts, both are a form of free speech, all we can do is condemn it and since I have never seen a shirt on a person that says Nuke Makkah I think most people are condemning that and as far as the news propaganda, well if more Muslims would speak out against what is going on they wouldnt be able to come up with such things if it were evident that the Muslim community was truly against what is going on.

Finally, I would like to say that I never asked Muslims to take "our side". I am asking Muslims to take a stand for what they believe is right, if Muslims believe that what is being done in the world right now is what is right, then say so and it can be dealt with. However, if you do not agree with it (which I hope most dont) then separate yourselves from it and show the rest of the world and these terrorist organizations that these actions are not that of Muslims but that of apostates and warmongers. It should not be an "us" or "them" thing, it should be a right or wrong thing. You tell me

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well you see when an imam condemns the act, he speaks for his followers too, like the major saudi scholars who have now passed away like bin baz called bin laden a heretic and condemned his attacks, and now this scholar had millions of people who would follow his work and listen to him etc, in saudia arabia, and around the world, put that with all the other imams who have spoken out against terrorism and you do have the majority of muslims who are against it, they dont need to march or protest, this isnt the Islamic way of doing things, we let a representitive speak for us, and the rep who speaks for us we follow his ruling on the matter, so therefore when imams come togethor and condemn the terrorism the issue is closed, we dont need to go march because the issue has been resolved. you see, you should really take the time to learn about Islam and how things are done, because you want us to follow your procedure of doing things, march, protest, all that, yet this is not the Islamic way of doing things, now many muslims do march protest etc but the majority dont, because the majority just follow the rulings of the scholars and imams who have now condemned the attacks hence case closed, we dont need to keep condeming it as it has already been done.

now im not saying you guys can never mock us, do it, but as they say, there is a limit to how much insulting and mocking you can do, you understand that. when you keep doing it over and over again its bound to tick the person off, were not asking for special treatment, just normal treatment, is asking not to be mocked and insulted on a weekly basis to much to ask for?

and now as for fox news, fox news gives FALSE propaganda, like the recent shooter in virginia, fox reported he was asian, which is true, but fox news purposely just said asian instead of oriental asian, because the first thing people thought when asian was brought up was pakistani or some muslim country in asia, it is small propaganda tools like this to stir up emotion. fox news are always inviting anti-Islamic guests, such as robert spencer, and many others who villify muslims 24-7, and on top of that once on fox news show, fox and friends which airs in the morning, the idiotic commentator of the show said 'so basically Muhammad said join us or get killed unlike jesus a message of love and peace' and then that segment ended and they went into an advertizement, are you telling me this is appropriate for a supposedly objective major news orginization?!!!!!!!!!!!!! you can still find it on youtube i believe, just search robert spencer fox news.

as for the t-shirts, well just visit www.foxnews.com and you will see advert for the conservative t-shirt site on the side of the page. if you cant find it, ill get the link as i saved it.

last but not least, americans themselves should also get up and protest, you see you act like its one way traffic, let us not forget america is number one supplier in finance and arms for israel, which in turn uses that weapons and money against fellow muslims of ours in palestine, do you really expect us to sing praises for america with this happening? you really sound illogical, it as if you think we muslims are robots, and cant get angry, that we have to accept everything you guys do against us and smile and say we love you. so never forget this, as we speak right now palestine is occupied by a country called israel which the USA regards as its best friend and ally, and as we speak the israeli army are carrying guns to shoot and kill our fellow muslims which is supplied by your nation, so therefore it is you americans who should go protesting against this illegal actions. but most of you support it! you say the 'right to self defense'.

so this isnt all one way traffic my friend,

I think this topic has gone off the point...

What does being mocked by non-Muslims have to do with Muslims defending their OWN ummah by protesting against the violence caused by Muslims?

Emir Aziz said:

is it?wasn't a Muslim dude arrested in UK for shouting "Death to America"?he was shouting,not firing weapons and yet he was arrested.correct me if I am wrong.
Nuke Mecca and Death to America seems similar to me.

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That is "inciting" violence and is apparently against the law in the UK, as for the NUke Mecca shirts, again, I have never seen a single person wear one, I am sure I can find a nuke the US shirt if I try hard enough, not to mention the Iranians who like to make a festival of it everyday, with their chants of Death to America

Emir Aziz said:

says who?you ever lived in a Muslim country?Just because they aren't reported doesn't mean there aren't positive things happening acroos the Muslim world.there's both good and bad.and negative things aren't only present in the Muslim world,they exist to different extents in all places.

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Perhaps good things happen in Muslim countries, but do these things involve foreign policy, if not then why would another countries news agency report on it? Also the news typically doesnt report great things anyways

Emir Aziz said:

sigh,okay what would you like us to do?again this "outspoken"...its your media giving more time to extremists than others.

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This is what I am talking about, everything above is an excuse, it offers no help to the situation, instead of making excuses make something happen. I am not asking anyone to befriend the US or even like the US, I personally believe if the Muslims could get along with one another it would solve a lot of problems. Fix yourself first then we can work on good international relationships.

The_Prince said:

well you see when an imam condemns the act, he speaks for his followers too, like the major saudi scholars who have now passed away like bin baz called bin laden a heretic and condemned his attacks, and now this scholar had millions of people who would follow his work and listen to him etc, in saudia arabia, and around the world, put that with all the other imams who have spoken out against terrorism and you do have the majority of muslims who are against it, they dont need to march or protest, this isnt the Islamic way of doing things, we let a representitive speak for us, and the rep who speaks for us we follow his ruling on the matter, so therefore when imams come togethor and condemn the terrorism the issue is closed, we dont need to go march because the issue has been resolved. you see, you should really take the time to learn about Islam and how things are done, because you want us to follow your procedure of doing things, march, protest, all that, yet this is not the Islamic way of doing things, now many muslims do march protest etc but the majority dont, because the majority just follow the rulings of the scholars and imams who have now condemned the attacks hence case closed, we dont need to keep condeming it as it has already been done.

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You say this is not the Muslim way, however their are riots or protests or suicide bombings or whatever everyday that are only done to try and demonstrate an islamic way or ideology, so why not display the islamic ideology of peace?
I have learned a great deal about Islam, and I know that an imam can speak for many, but does everyone know that? Is everyone supposed to learn about your faith to understand this? Most people dont have the time or wont take the time.
Also you do need to keep condemning them, you need to spread the word around and make it unacceptable. The more heinous and atrocious that it becomes the less people will want to be associated with it. If everyone thinks as you are above, this will never stop. If you notice what has been done already is very obviously not working, obviously more action must be taken. The rest of the world cannot fix the Muslim community, it is up to the Muslim community to fix itself.

Emir Aziz said:

now im not saying you guys can never mock us, do it, but as they say, there is a limit to how much insulting and mocking you can do, you understand that. when you keep doing it over and over again its bound to tick the person off, were not asking for special treatment, just normal treatment, is asking not to be mocked and insulted on a weekly basis to much to ask for?

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Who is mocking you, the Muslims reported on in the media are the ones who are commiting these acts of violence. This is what I am trying to get at, if you want to be separated from these people you have to do something to separate yourself from them, otherwise no one can see any difference. Many have the same looks, the same origins, the same languages, there is nothing to distinguish one from another unless you separate yourself with your opinions, ideology and voice.

Emir Aziz said:

and now as for fox news, fox news gives FALSE propaganda, like the recent shooter in virginia, fox reported he was asian, which is true, but fox news purposely just said asian instead of oriental asian, because the first thing people thought when asian was brought up was pakistani or some muslim country in asia, it is small propaganda tools like this to stir up emotion. fox news are always inviting anti-Islamic guests, such as robert spencer, and many others who villify muslims 24-7, and on top of that once on fox news show, fox and friends which airs in the morning, the idiotic commentator of the show said 'so basically Muhammad said join us or get killed unlike jesus a message of love and peace' and then that segment ended and they went into an advertizement, are you telling me this is appropriate for a supposedly objective major news orginization?!!!!!!!!!!!!! you can still find it on youtube i believe, just search robert spencer fox news.

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The first part of this I believe is paranoia, most people in the US when they hear Asia they are thinking China, Korea (which is where the guy was from), thailand, etc. People think of the places you referenced when the term middle east is applied. As far as Robert Spencer, he is obviously extreme, I have seen clerics on fox that are just as extreme, but this is not the point. There are 1000's of sources for news and not everyone watches fox or only fox. I also feel this is just another excuse, what does it matter what propaganda Fox is spreading? If all of this wasnt going on, what could they say then? Nothing, so again if the Muslim community could fix itself and separate itself from the extremist fox would have to find another group to spread propaganda about.

Emir Aziz said:

as for the t-shirts, well just visit www.foxnews.com and you will see advert for the conservative t-shirt site on the side of the page. if you cant find it, ill get the link as i saved it.

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I dont care to see this shirt, I know what kind of material it is and it only spreads hatred. Again I will say I have never seen anyone wearing a shirt like this

Emir Aziz said:

last but not least, americans themselves should also get up and protest, you see you act like its one way traffic, let us not forget america is number one supplier in finance and arms for israel, which in turn uses that weapons and money against fellow muslims of ours in palestine, do you really expect us to sing praises for america with this happening? you really sound illogical, it as if you think we muslims are robots, and cant get angry, that we have to accept everything you guys do against us and smile and say we love you. so never forget this, as we speak right now palestine is occupied by a country called israel which the USA regards as its best friend and ally, and as we speak the israeli army are carrying guns to shoot and kill our fellow muslims which is supplied by your nation, so therefore it is you americans who should go protesting against this illegal actions. but most of you support it! you say the 'right to self defense'.

so this isnt all one way traffic my friend,

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I am not asking you to befriend the US, I am not asking you to like the US. I am asking you to condemn violence. I am asking you to condemn terrorism, mass graves, car bombs, suicide bombs, I am asking you to stand up for what is right, rather than be quiet about what is wrong. What if Palestine or Israel for that matter laid down their arms and said we wish for peace? The other side would have to oblige otherwise they would be condemned by the world community immediately. The problem there now is both lands are consumed by equally radical violence and there isnt one side who is right or wrong, the only way it will stop is for one or the other to say "We want our children to live in a safe world".

Medina83 said:

I have to say I agree with the original poster.

And we could go on forever about well non-muslims did this to us and throwing stones on both sides.

The world will never improve unless people start with themselves first.

And so yes i would be delighted to see and participate in a worldwide Muslim outcry against these things similar to the outcry against the Danish cartoons of Prophet Muhammed pbuh.

I remember a Hadith where one of the companions and the prophet were sitting together and someone was insulting the companion. (I can't remember which companion ..I think it was Abu Bakr a.s.) Anyway the companion remained silent to all the insults for a long time until finally he retaliated with a smart comment to the person insulting him at which point Muhammed pbuh either walked away or got angry (I can't remember sorry). When Muhammed pbuh spoke to the companion later , he said that while the companion was bearing the insults the angels were with him, but when he retaliated , they left immediately.

To me this means that we should always have patience even with those who attack our faith. And with those who make valid suggestions (such as this original poster) , and not get defensive and attack them for it.

Everyone has their sins, Muslim and non-Muslim alike, when we as Muslims start to focus on bettering ourselves and our ummah as opposed to sitting around slating others, then the position of Islam will improve in the world which can only benefit us.

Also I would point out that America (i'm Irish so no affiliation to America) and Europe for that matter have a strong growing population of Muslims and so labelling of 'the West' and 'America' in a general sense in diatribes is really quite frustrating for those of us muslims who live in these areas. Our countries do have some good qualities also. We as Muslims cannot really continue to use these categorisations because we are including our Muslim brethren in these categories.

Salam

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Thank you for your post

Blaming FOX news is only a convenient excuse to divert attention from the issue. Extremists of every denomination should be marginalized. That takes more than lip service followed by excuses.

Greetings,

I think it would be fair to say that there are two extremes: the first being that all blame lies on the distortion or propaganda of the media and non-Muslims' unwillingness to see the truth. The second extreme is that the fault is solely due to Muslims not speaking out or doing enough to deliver the message that Islam does not support terrorism.

The truth is perhaps somewhere between the two. Yes, the media does often exaggerate and misrepresent the reality. News is often biased; an action of violence will easily make breaking news, but an Imam wishing to speak out against terrorism is somehow not as appealing - neither to the money-making side of the media, nor, perhaps, to some of those who watch the news. The fact of the matter is that the news should not be the only window of learning; people should be active and come to their own conclusions rather than being fed them by others.

On the other side of the coin, it is also true that Muslims need to find more effective ways to make themselves heard. This does not mean, however, that nobody has ever spoken out, as has already been mentioned in this thread, particularly where I linked to this post: http://www.islamicboard.com/420474-post264.html
Countless voices have already spoken out and many different forms of speaking out have been used. Protesting is not the only way to do it, and just because there hasn't been a protest for a particular occasion does not mean that nobody condemns it.

MTAFFI said:

The extremely vast majority of these outrageous attacks have been made by Muslim people, often labeled as radical, extreme or otherwise by the media and different governments.

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How do you know it is the "extremely vast majority"? Perhaps the extremely vast majority of those imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay and other such places are charged without even being proved guilty! Perhaps the vast majority of finger pointing is towards Muslims, as you have demonstrated, but whether they are truly responsible is another matter. Nowadays we hear so many terms spurred out by the media, but what we are not told is whether a person was a true follower of Islam. All too often the supposed Muslim is one who was in the pub the night before or somebody who never attended a Mosque. And yet it is the image of practising Muslims that is tarnished.

In fact, it is true for any group, organization or otherwise to have some bad seeds, but it is the responsiblity of that group to distance themselves and set themselves apart from those commiting the atrocites.

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Isn't the open declaration by a scholar that someone is a heretic distancing ourselves from them?

And yes there has been a march against Zarqawi in Jordan and a march against Al-Qaeda in Morroco, but all in all you are talking about 300,000 people in all in those two marches, whereas there are over a billion Muslims in the world.

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There may be over a billion Muslims in the world, yet how many have actual access to being interviewed in a TV programme or news channel or even being able to organise a protest, when millions live in impoverished countries and do not even have basic literary skills let alone food and water?

Also, from what I have noticed many times when these people do speak out they are then considered to be an apostate of Islam or "siding with the west" or a liberal or moderate Muslim, what kind of message do you think that sends to the rest of the world?

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Speaking out against terrorism does not make one an apostate of Islam, as anyone with basic knowledge of Islam can understand.

Secondly, Fox news reports on Muslims negatively because there isnt much to report positively these days, what should they do? Lie and say that Muslims love the US and just want peace, this is just simply not what appears to be the case as reflected in world affairs and even on this very website, at times.

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Well first you say that Imams should speak out, yet how can you expect this to have an effect on people with the mentality of "there isn't much to report positively these days"? Obviously such people need to be willing to rid themselves of their own ignorance and prejudice before making the assertion that nothing is being done by Muslims.

well if more Muslims would speak out against what is going on they wouldnt be able to come up with such things if it were evident that the Muslim community was truly against what is going on.

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I very much doubt it, since even governments go against what the majority of people truly believe in.

Peace.

Muhammad said:

Greetings,

I think it would be fair to say that there are two extremes: the first being that all blame lies on the distortion or propaganda of the media and non-Muslims' unwillingness to see the truth. The second extreme is that the fault is solely due to Muslims not speaking out or doing enough to deliver the message that Islam does not support terrorism.

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Please note that no one here said that the fault is "soley" on Muslims.

Muhammad said:

The truth is perhaps somewhere between the two. Yes, the media does often exaggerate and misrepresent the reality. News is often biased; an action of violence will easily make breaking news, but an Imam wishing to speak out against terrorism is somehow not as appealing - neither to the money-making side of the media, nor, perhaps, to some of those who watch the news. The fact of the matter is that the news should not be the only window of learning; people should be active and come to their own conclusions rather than being fed them by others.

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Media can exaggerate and can misrepresent, but often I find that it is fairly truthful. The news reports on events and happenings around the world, just because it doesnt put everyone in the greatest of light doesnt make it any less true.

I would find an Imam speaking out against radicals very appealing, in fact imagine if a bunch of Imams got together and took a serious stance against the current events, are you really going to tell me that it wouldnt be a media frenzy? I believe the news would be all over such a thing. It seems to me that a lot of people on this forum seem to think the media is after Muslims, I think you need to watch the news a little more carefully. The media in the US tends to be very liberal, they want to pull out of Iraq, they love to attack Bush and they often dont speak of Muslims in general but use the usual groups, al-qaeda, etc. In fact, my wishing that Muslims would speak out is not as much for the rest of the world as it is for Muslims. Why do you think these groups are able to attract young influential muslims? Obviously not enough is being said or done to keep people away from these terrorist organizations.

Muhammad said:

On the other side of the coin, it is also true that Muslims need to find more effective ways to make themselves heard. This does not mean, however, that nobody has ever spoken out, as has already been mentioned in this thread, particularly where I linked to this post: http://www.islamicboard.com/420474-post264.html
Countless voices have already spoken out and many different forms of speaking out have been used. Protesting is not the only way to do it, and just because there hasn't been a protest for a particular occasion does not mean that nobody condemns it.

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I am not saying that no Muslims have spoken out, I am saying that they are not speaking out enough. Countless ways and yet it is not shown to the world by anyone. I would also like to point out again that there are other news sources that are not american and are based in the mid east, why would these agencies not cover these imam's? Would they not be biased towards Islam? If so why would they not show that this is not what Islam is about? Again plenty of people can condemn it, but without someone or a group of people making a big deal about it, it makes no difference.

Muhammad said:

How do you know it is the "extremely vast majority"? Perhaps the extremely vast majority of those imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay and other such places are charged without even being proved guilty! Perhaps the vast majority of finger pointing is towards Muslims, as you have demonstrated, but whether they are truly responsible is another matter. Nowadays we hear so many terms spurred out by the media, but what we are not told is whether a person was a true follower of Islam. All too often the supposed Muslim is one who was in the pub the night before or somebody who never attended a Mosque. And yet it is the image of practising Muslims that is tarnished.

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How do I know it is the vast majority? Well common sense for one and by the people who commit these crimes own admissions for another. How many of these attacks are committed by any other religion? None, in fact I challenge you to find one instance in current events in regard to what we are speaking about (middle east and terrorism) where the assailants are not claiming to be Muslim and doing the work of Allah.

As for your point about
"Nowadays we hear so many terms spurred out by the media, but what we are not told is whether a person was a true follower of Islam."
I couldnt agree more, why do you think this is? Could it be because Muslims are not distinguishing themselves from these people? Maybe this is not the entire reason but it definitely has a whole whole whole lot to do with it. You can deny this if you want, but again I will tell you that is what the problem is, denial and deflecting the blame.

Muhammad said:

Isn't the open declaration by a scholar that someone is a heretic distancing ourselves from them?

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No, it is not actually, the declaration of a single scholar is an opinion, a declaration by a large group of scholars holding a summit would mean something.

Muhammad said:

Speaking out against terrorism does not make one an apostate of Islam, as anyone with basic knowledge of Islam can understand.

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This may be true but that doesnt stop some from labeling them as such, and you only mention apostate, what about the siding with the west or being a liberal or moderate?

Muhammad said:

Well first you say that Imams should speak out, yet how can you expect this to have an effect on people with the mentality of "there isn't much to report positively these days"? Obviously such people need to be willing to rid themselves of their own ignorance and prejudice before making the assertion that nothing is being done by Muslims.

I very much doubt it, since even governments go against what the majority of people truly believe in.

Peace.

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I think a lot of people are willing to listen to something good that Muslims have to say, but since it isnt ever really said in any real numbers it seems that when it is said it is just minority view. Again I will say Muslims need to speak out for themselves, not for anyone else, no one else can or will help you help yourself, you must do that before anyone can or will take you seriously. I believe it would be the best possible starting place.

I firmly believe that “Silence = approval”.

I have been sitting back wanting to see what was posted before I put my 2 Cents worth in.

I understand that this breaches the concept of Backbiting, but still this is a subject that gives me great trouble.

A not uncommon strategy when there is criticism is just trying to deflect it by leveling worse charges at the accuser. Of course there is always the “Everything is the Media’s Fault” routine. But these “abdication of responsibilities” only hinder the ability of people to reach a resolution or understanding.

So in order of trying to avoid this, I readily admit that I have done worse.
In this same light, the only thing that applies to all Muslims is that they are Muslims.
Any other statement will not apply evenly across the entire spectrum of Muslims.

Now I often see where there are statements that Islam condemns terrorism. That is not my point. My point is they almost never are names named and the condemnation is open to interpretation.
There can be alternate definitions of what an Innocent Civilian is. Obviously we are not communication if we use different definitions.

I was truly impressed when Jordan had marches condemning Zaraqawi. I think it was good when CAIR denounced OBL. But I don’t remember any other condemnation of “A Terrorist”. I have never heard a single negative word from any Muslim for the likes of Mohamed Atta. I have never seen condemnations of any Imam that promotes violence and condones terrorism.

In fact not only do I not see condemnation of these murders, some times I see praise and almost no Muslim breaks there silence.

Many young Muslims come to this forum. What do they see?

Some Muslims praising terrorists and no Muslim condemning them.

What conclusion can they come to?

wilberhum said:

......In fact not only do I not see condemnation of these murders, some times I see praise and almost no Muslim breaks there silence.

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Perfectly valid point.

Many young Muslims come to this forum. What do they see?

Some Muslims praising terrorists and no Muslim condemning them.

What conclusion can they come to?

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Again good points raised. I imagine you yourself have seen many different posts from muslims, some agreeing with terrorists and also some condemning. I admit that sometimes there seems to be more agreeing with terrorist attacks etc.

One possible reason for this is that those who are not condemning the acts are literally tired of doing so - day in day out. Now I know this does not mean that we shouldn't keep condemning but it does happen: constant defending and apologising is not easy for any human, I hope you can understand this.

Just to clarify I am not saying I am too tired to condemn, no, I am saying that it can prove difficult, but we should still try our best. And as your points have indicated, there is clearly a need for improvement.

Aamirsaab,
Thank you for your comments and also thank you for understanding that my post was not to condemn but to look for understanding of my point of view.

constant defending and apologising is not easy for any human, I hope you can understand this.

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I understand it quite well. I often feel the same.

But most of all I would like to thank you for

there is clearly a need for improvement.

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May we all work together.
Wilber