Jesus asked, "Who do you say I am?"

I understand that Muslims do not believe what Jesus said about himself is true in the Bible. I could understand this if it was only once or even twice that He mentions He is the only way to God (Alllah), but when the Bible is replete with such testimonies and Christ's statements, it is not possible to push it off as translational errors or a false witness.

alapiana1 said:

I understand that Muslims do not believe what Jesus said about himself is true in the Bible. I could understand this if it was only once or even twice that He mentions He is the only way to God (Alllah), but when the Bible is replete with such testimonies and Christ's statements, it is not possible to push it off as translational errors or a false witness.

Click to expand...

The reply will be that the Apostle Paul made it all up and the rest of Christendom remained silent...but of course that would also mean the whole of Christendom was a lie to begin with. Convenient, but not based on anything than the need to believe such is the case.

Peace and I intend no disrespect to you as a person,

This is a fool's argument, in that only a fool would fall into the trap of believing it is a bonafide arguement.

This is a case of the statement being offered as proof of the statement.

An often over looked fact in debates is people fail to understand that it is impossable to disprove a false statement. Often people accept the inability to disprove a statement as verification it is true. But, the only thing it proves is the inability to disprove.

all statements made and presented as truth take on the responsability of proving they are true,

Without using the Bible, prove that Isa(as) is God(swt) or the Son of God(swt)

Woodrow said:

Peace and I intend no disrespect to you as a person,

This is a fool's argument, in that only a fool would fall into the trap of believing it is a bonafide arguement.

This is a case of the statement being offered as proof of the statement.

An often over looked fact in debates is people fail to understand that it is impossable to disprove a false statement. Often people accept the inability to disprove a statement as verification it is true. But, the only thing it proves is the inability to disprove.

all statements made and presented as truth take on the responsability of proving they are true,

Without using the Bible, prove that Isa(as) is God(swt) or the Son of God(swt)

Click to expand...

Without using the Bible? How is that supposed to be accomplished? Do you speak of Allah without referencing the Qu'ran?

Keltoi said:

Without using the Bible? How is that supposed to be accomplished? Do you speak of Allah without referencing the Qu'ran?

Click to expand...

Yes, quite often.

Actually as Muslims while we do have faith in the Qur'an, we are encouraged to seek proof of what the Qur'an contains from other sources. A revert to Islam is all but physically forced to seek authenticity of the Qur'an from other sources.

One of the reasons I left Christianity a long time ago is the only proof for Christianity is Christianity. That sunk in when I was in my first semester as a Seminarian, and was the start of why I came to doubt Christianity. The NT tries to be it's own proof that the NT is true. When a statement itself is the source of proof for the statement, in my opinion it has lost a lot of credibility.

Woodrow said:

Yes, quite often.

Actually as Muslims while we do have faith in the Qur'an, we are encouraged to seek proof of what the Qur'an contains from other sources. A revert to Islam is all but physically forced to seek authenticity of the Qur'an from other sources.

One of the reasons I left Christianity a long time ago is the only proof for Christianity is Christianity. That sunk in when I was in my first semester as a Seminarian, and was the start of why I came to doubt Christianity. The NT tries to be it's own proof that the NT is true. When a statement itself is the source of proof for the statement, in my opinion it has lost a lot of credibility.

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I find that interesting. So what about Islam do you believe is proof of its existence outside the pages of the Qu'ran?

Keltoi said:

I find that interesting. So what about Islam do you believe is proof of its existence outside the pages of the Qu'ran?

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Actually it was from outside sources that I became aware of the verifications. when I began reading the Qur'an nearly 50 years ago, I used it strictly as a linguistic guide to understand the development of the Arabic Language. For most of my life I saw it as interesting, literature but nothing more.

Keep in mind for most of my life I was a Physiological Psychologist, and very scientific in my approaches to all things. I still am.

As I was working in research and some in microscopic studies i began coming across things, not the least of was embyonic development. I realised that what I was learning matched what was in the Qur'an. My lifelong hobby has been astronomy. Again what I have seen through a telescope and learning in readings was again stuff I had read in the Qur'an. Not the least of was the expanding universe. At the time the Qur'an was writen people had a very narrow view of the universe and thought that all of material creation could be seen. There was no concept that the universe is expanding. But, the Qur'an says it is.

Then taking a look at the Qur'an itself. Muhammad(pbuh) is very provable, there is no doubt that he lived. That is historically validated by both his friends an enimies, it is also verifialbe that he did dictate something He told the people was the word of Allah(swt). Again that is verifialbe by both his friends and enemies. There is very much an unbroken chain that shows the Qur'an of today is the same as what Muhammad(pbuh) agreed was what he dictated, That in itself is of no solid proof that the Qur'an is the word of God(swt). However, it is fulfillment of the statement in the Qur'an that the Qur'an is protected and will not be changed.

Then we get the Qur'anic Challange for anybody to write something equal to one ayyat of the Qur'an. Linguistic has always been one of my pet studies and I love the study of languages. Because I did have some familiarity with Arabic, I saw the impact of that statement.

To many Non-Arabic speaking people the challenge to write one ayyat equal to the smallest ayyat is a silly challenge and is fixed as to there is no one to fairly judge such an attempt.

However, if one learns just a few phrases of colloquial Arabic and a single ayyat of the qur'an it becomes apparent as to what that challenge entails and just how miraculous it is.

Arabic is a very paradoxical language. It has some of the worlds most beautiful poetry and music. Yet it is nearly impossible to write Arabic Poetry or Music that can convey a message. to be rather blunt and risk angering my Arabic speaking Brothers and sisters, the spoken Arabic used to conduct daily business or to convey messages is not a very pleasant sounding language to most people. I have often heard it described as sounding like a camel coughing up a hair ball.

Yet, the Qur'an is the most pleasant sounding book ever written. It flows as the most beautiful music and is a poem without equal. However, it has a very clear message that can not be described in Arabic poetry or Music, but it was done in the Qur'an.

It is impossible in Arabic to write such beauty and have it contain any message or convey any constructive thought. But, it does. In Arabic Culture, Poetry is considered a waste of time as it serves no valid purpose. But, the Qur'an does contradict that and is the only Arabic writing that does so.

About the only task I can think of, that comes close to the Qur'anic challenge would be to challenge somebody to write the US constitution set as a song to the tune of Mozart's 5th symphony and still have it make full legal sense. that actually would be an easy task compared to writing one ayyat equal to the smallest ayyat in the Qur'an.

I do not believe Muhammad(PBUH) would have been able to write the Qur'an even if he had been a linguistic scholar and genius. But, here he was an Illiterate salesman, with no writing skills and he writes it. If somebody had done something like that as a school course, there would be an immediate outrage that the person Cheated and he did not write it.

That is what Muhammad(PBUH) did, he did not write it. However he did not cheat as he never claimed authorship

to illustrate what I am talking about in reference to the Arabic Language and the challange of the Qur'an.

Listen to this Short Surah from the Qur'an

http://media.putfile.com/Surah-1-Al-Fatihah


Now listen to collqual arabic in this short Arabic lesson:

http://media.putfile.com/ahlan_wa_sahlan_lesson_01

Now look at an interpretation as to what is said in the Qur'anic recitation.

1: 1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. S P
1: 2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; S P C
1: 3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful; S P
1: 4. Master of the Day of Judgment. S P
1: 5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. S P C

1: 6. Show us the straight way, S P C
1: 7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

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Makes sense, this same type of theme is continued through out the entire Qur'an and each ayyat carries the same melodious sounds while contnuing with a solid message all the way through.

That is a very difficult thing to grasp for anyone who doesn't speak Arabic... how no two suras are alike... if you look at the hadiths by prophet Mohammed PBUH, and the Quran, you can see a very distinctive styles of writing... moreover, the Quran itself has no two suras that are the same stylistically, or rhythmically. in some suras the verses were revealed years apart ( some in mecca and some in medina), yet still flowed, in meaning and rhythm-- No one can attribute its writing style to a particular writer. As it was and still is no one's writing style... Sobhan Allah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2-ie5G9kxo

PurestAmbrosia said:

That is a very difficult thing to grasp for anyone who doesn't speak Arabic... how no two suras are alike... if you look at the hadiths by prophet Mohammed PBUH, and the Quran, you can see a very distinctive styles of writing... moreover, the Quran itself has no two suras that are the same stylistically, or rhythmically. in some suras the verses were revealed years apart ( some in mecca and some in medina), yet still flowed, in meaning and rhythm-- No one can attribute its writing style to a particular writer. As it was and still is no one's writing style... Sobhan Allah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2-ie5G9kxo

Click to expand...

The particular writing style has never been seen outside the Qur'an that I am aware of and trying to use Qur'anic Arabic for daily usage is probably imposable. Although there are many dialects of Arabic throughout the world and often the people in one country can not understand the people of another Arabic speaking country, all Arabic speakers can understand the Qur'an.

It is true.. I have traveled through a few countries in the middle east, the most readily understood Arabic is "Egyptian" Arabic-- although it is also the most mocked :-[ for incorrectness lol... and I believe the most difficult to comprehend is the Moroccan/Algerian/ Libyan.. dialects... in fact some of my Moroccan friends I'd rather communicate with them in french as I find their Arabic an impossibility, the words mean completely different things... ex, an (iron) to them, means something bad that I'll not share here :-[ , Then there are the Berbers and the Bedouins... you might as well learn sign language when it comes to them--- so you are The language of the Quran is the most proper... but no one speaks that correctly now... and certainly not then!

And I must admit though I am fluent in Arabic, there are many words that I need to look up... I am so amazed at how Allah can use one word that Pickthal or Yusefali need an entire sentence to describe... for instance the first few verses of this sura

وَالنَّازِعَاتِ غَرْقًا {1}​

[Pickthal 79:1] By those who drag forth to destruction,

وَالنَّاشِطَاتِ نَشْطًا {2}​

[Pickthal 79:2] By the meteors rushing,

وَالسَّابِحَاتِ سَبْحًا {3}​

[Pickthal 79:3] By the lone stars floating,

فَالسَّابِقَاتِ سَبْقًا {4}​

[Pickthal 79:4] By the angels hastening,

فَالْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْرًا {5}​

[Pickthal 79:5] And those who govern the event,

يَوْمَ تَرْجُفُ الرَّاجِفَةُ {6}​

[Pickthal 79:6] On the day when the first trump resoundeth.

تَتْبَعُهَا الرَّادِفَةُ {7}​

[Pickthal 79:7] And the second followeth it,

قُلُوبٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَاجِفَةٌ {8}​

[Pickthal 79:8] On that day hearts beat painfully

أَبْصَارُهَا خَاشِعَةٌ {9}​

[Pickthal 79:9] While eyes are downcast

يَقُولُونَ أَئِنَّا لَمَرْدُودُونَ فِي الْحَافِرَةِ {10}​

[Pickthal 79:10] (Now) they are saying: Shall we really be restored to our first state

أَئِذَا كُنَّا عِظَامًا نَّخِرَةً {11}​

[Pickthal 79:11] Even after we are crumbled bones?

قَالُوا تِلْكَ إِذًا كَرَّةٌ خَاسِرَةٌ {12}​

[Pickthal 79:12] They say: Then that would be a vain proceeding.

فَإِنَّمَا هِيَ زَجْرَةٌ وَاحِدَةٌ {13}​

[Pickthal 79:13] Surely it will need but one shout,

فَإِذَا هُم بِالسَّاهِرَةِ {14}​

[Pickthal 79:14] And lo! they will be awakened.

هَلْ أتَاكَ حَدِيثُ مُوسَى {15}​

[Pickthal 79:15] Hath there come unto thee the history of Moses?

إِذْ نَادَاهُ رَبُّهُ بِالْوَادِ الْمُقَدَّسِ طُوًى {16}​

[Pickthal 79:16] How his Lord called him in the holy vale of Tuwa,

اذْهَبْ إِلَى فِرْعَوْنَ إِنَّهُ طَغَى {17}​

[Pickthal 79:17] (Saying Go thou unto Pharaoh - Lo! he hath rebelled -

فَقُلْ هَل لَّكَ إِلَى أَن تَزَكَّى {18}​

[Pickthal 79:18] And say (unto him): Hast thou (will) to grow (in grace)?

وَأَهْدِيَكَ إِلَى رَبِّكَ فَتَخْشَى {19}​

[Pickthal 79:19] Then I will guide thee to thy Lord and thou shalt fear (Him).

فَأَرَاهُ الْآيَةَ الْكُبْرَى {20}​

[Pickthal 79:20] And he showed him the tremendous token.

فَكَذَّبَ وَعَصَى {21}​

[Pickthal 79:21] But he denied and disobeyed,

ثُمَّ أَدْبَرَ يَسْعَى {22}​

[Pickthal 79:22] Then turned he away in haste,

فَحَشَرَ فَنَادَى {23}​

[Pickthal 79:23] Then gathered he and summoned

فَقَالَ أَنَا رَبُّكُمُ الْأَعْلَى {24}​

[Pickthal 79:24] And proclaimed: "I (Pharaoh) am your Lord the Highest."

فَأَخَذَهُ اللَّهُ نَكَالَ الْآخِرَةِ وَالْأُولَى {25}​

[Pickthal 79:25] So Allah seized him (and made him) an example for the after (life) and for the former.

إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَعِبْرَةً لِّمَن يَخْشَى {26}​

[Pickthal 79:26] Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for him who feareth.

أَأَنتُمْ أَشَدُّ خَلْقًا أَمِ السَّمَاء بَنَاهَا {27}​

[Pickthal 79:27] Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?

رَفَعَ سَمْكَهَا فَسَوَّاهَا {28}​

[Pickthal 79:28] He raised the height thereof and ordered it;

وَأَغْطَشَ لَيْلَهَا وَأَخْرَجَ ضُحَاهَا {29}​

[Pickthal 79:29] And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof.

وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا {30}​

[Pickthal 79:30] And after that He spread the earth,

أَخْرَجَ مِنْهَا مَاءهَا وَمَرْعَاهَا {31​

}
[Pickthal 79:31] And produced therefrom the water thereof and the pasture thereof,

وَالْجِبَالَ أَرْسَاهَا {32}​

[Pickthal 79:32] And He made fast the hills,

مَتَاعًا لَّكُمْ وَلِأَنْعَامِكُمْ {33}​

[Pickthal 79:33] A provision for you and for your cattle.

فَإِذَا جَاءتِ الطَّامَّةُ الْكُبْرَى {34}​

[Pickthal 79:34] But when the great disaster cometh,

يَوْمَ يَتَذَكَّرُ الْإِنسَانُ مَا سَعَى {35}​

[Pickthal 79:35] The day when man will call to mind his (whole) endeavour,

وَبُرِّزَتِ الْجَحِيمُ لِمَن يَرَى {36}​

[Pickthal 79:36] And hell will stand forth visible to him who seeth,

فَأَمَّا مَن طَغَى {37}​

[Pickthal 79:37] Then, as for him who rebelled

وَآثَرَ الْحَيَاةَ الدُّنْيَا {38}​

[Pickthal 79:38] And chose the life of the world,

فَإِنَّ الْجَحِيمَ هِيَ الْمَأْوَى {39}​

[Pickthal 79:39] Lo! hell will be his home.

وَأَمَّا مَنْ خَافَ مَقَامَ رَبِّهِ وَنَهَى النَّفْسَ عَنِ الْهَوَى {40}​

[Pickthal 79:40] But as for him who feared to stand before his Lord and restrained his soul from lust,

فَإِنَّ الْجَنَّةَ هِيَ الْمَأْوَى {41}​

[Pickthal 79:41] Lo! the Garden will be his home.

يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ السَّاعَةِ أَيَّانَ مُرْسَاهَا {42}​

[Pickthal 79:42] They ask thee of the Hour: when will it come to port?

فِيمَ أَنتَ مِن ذِكْرَاهَا {43}​

[Pickthal 79:43] Why (ask they)? What hast thou to tell thereof?

إِلَى رَبِّكَ مُنتَهَاهَا {44}​

[Pickthal 79:44] Unto thy Lord belongeth (knowledge of) the term thereof.

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرُ مَن يَخْشَاهَا {45}​

[Pickthal 79:45] Thou art but a warner unto him who feareth it.

كَأَنَّهُمْ يَوْمَ يَرَوْنَهَا لَمْ يَلْبَثُوا إِلَّا عَشِيَّةً أَوْ ضُحَاهَا {46}​

[Pickthal 79:46] On the day when they behold it, it will be as if they had but tarried for an evening or the morn thereof
One of the most beautiful recitations I have ever heard.. especially by Sheikh Jibreen.. wish I knew how to upload it so I can share it... in all its melodic beauty and grandeur... gives me goose pimples... sobhan Allah

I believe we have covered the part that as Muslims we verify the Qur'an through sources besides the Qur'an and that the proof of the Qur'an being true is shown using sources outside the Qur'an. Be it the study of languages, Astronomy, history or many other sciences.

Now getting back to the first post, to us the NT is meaningless. No matter how many times something is repeated in the NT we can not accept it.

As the only prove there is to show that the NT is true is the NT itself and a statement that says the statement itself proves the statement is true leaves much to leave desired in terms of credibility.

alapiana1 said:

I understand that Muslims do not believe what Jesus said about himself is true in the Bible. I could understand this if it was only once or even twice that He mentions He is the only way to God (Alllah), but when the Bible is replete with such testimonies and Christ's statements, it is not possible to push it off as translational errors or a false witness.

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In my opinion, Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them) may have really said that. Since he came to his people and was a messenger of Allaah sent to them, so how could anyone ever get to Allaah without accepting their Messenger who brought the truth?

Therefore those who were alive at the time of Jesus son of Mary had to accept him and the law revealed to him in order to draw closer to Allaah. What other option did they have?

Anyone who is sincere, God guides them. However those who are too arrogant to submit go astray to their own loss.


Allaah's final Messenger (peace be upon him) came with the same message as all the previous Prophets - none is worthy of worship except God Alone, your Creator and Sustainer. No soul bears the burden of another, this was the exact religion of Abraham and Moses. Allaah says in His final revelation to mankind:

Keltoi said:

The reply will be that the Apostle Paul made it all up and the rest of Christendom remained silent...but of course that would also mean the whole of Christendom was a lie to begin with. Convenient, but not based on anything than the need to believe such is the case.

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Amen to that

I guess the "need to believe" can be assumed of your side as well? .... you already have two other Abrahamic religions giving you a different version of the events... Possible we are wrong? sure :rollseyes .. but Very possible you are wrong as well and just too arrogant to want to see it!
peace!

PurestAmbrosia said:

I guess the "need to believe" can be assumed of your side as well? .... you already have two other Abrahamic religions giving you a different version of the events... Possible we are wrong sure :rollseyes .. but Very possible you are wrong as well and just too arrogant to want to see it!
peace!

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Arrogant? I don't think anyone has used "arrogance" in their response. Could Christians be wrong? Absolutely. Just as Islam could be wrong. My faith is with Jesus Christ, so I have all confidence that Christ is the way to salvation. You have a different belief. You will never see me post a thread dedicated to prove the Muslim faith is false...I have no interest in it because I have my faith. An unshakable faith. I find those who spend so much of their time trying to convince another faith that they are wrong is evidence of lack of faith. That is simply my opinion. If that is "arrogant" I apologize, because nothing I say or post is done in the spirit of arrogance.

That is funny considering this thread was started by your fellow Christian for exactly that purpose of proving another faith wrong... and ironically done on an Islamic forum... What is that for? I do find your posts arrogant yes.. you don't have to spell the word out for me!

peace!

PurestAmbrosia said:

That is funny considering this thread was started by your fellow Christian for exactly that purpose of proving another faith wrong... and ironically done on an Islamic forum... What is that for? I do find your posts arrogant yes.. you don't have to spell the word out for me!

peace!

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The thread was started to point out the number of times Christ mentions His relationship with the Almighty. Not to prove your faith wrong. As for being "ironically" on a Muslim forum, this is a comparative religion section, not the Islam section. As for being arrogant, perhaps you should look in the mirror before you label others.

Keltoi said:

The thread was started to point out the number of times Christ mentions His relationship with the Almighty. Not to prove your faith wrong. As for being "ironically" on a Muslim forum, this is a comparative religion section, not the Islam section. As for being arrogant, perhaps you should look in the mirror before you label others.

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Yes not wanting to prove my faith wrong is so very apparent from your previous statements--
And, It is indeed comparative religion on a Muslim forum try to observe some of its rules!
I have tired of shuffling you between threads... And I need to make Mughrib prayer... seeing how much it itches you to always have the last statement and this almost pathological need to always be right by all means go ahead! Enjoy!

PurestAmbrosia said:

Yes not wanting to prove my faith wrong is so very apparent from your previous statements--
And, It is indeed comparative religion on a Muslim forum try to observe some of its rules!
I have tired of shuffling you between threads... And I need to make Mughrib prayer... seeing how much it itches you to always have the last statement and this almost pathological need to always be right by all means go ahead! Enjoy!

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I would challenge you to find one post of mine with the intention of proving Islam to be false. You won't find it.

As for the rules I'm breaking, what are those? Report me to a mod if you believe this to be the case and we will see if they agree.