Jesus asked, "Who do you say I am?"

[Redeemed]

I understand that Muslims do not believe what Jesus said about himself is true in the Bible. I could understand this if it was only once or even twice that He mentions He is the only way to God (Alllah), but when the Bible is replete with such testimonies and Christ's statements, it is not possible to push it off as translational errors or a false witness.

[Keltoi]

I understand that Muslims do not believe what Jesus said about himself is true in the Bible. I could understand this if it was only once or even twice that He mentions He is the only way to God (Alllah), but when the Bible is replete with such testimonies and Christ's statements, it is not possible to push it off as translational errors or a false witness.

The reply will be that the Apostle Paul made it all up and the rest of Christendom remained silent...but of course that would also mean the whole of Christendom was a lie to begin with. Convenient, but not based on anything than the need to believe such is the case.

[Woodrow]

Peace and I intend no disrespect to you as a person,

This is a fool's argument, in that only a fool would fall into the trap of believing it is a bonafide arguement.

This is a case of the statement being offered as proof of the statement.

An often over looked fact in debates is people fail to understand that it is impossable to disprove a false statement. Often people accept the inability to disprove a statement as verification it is true. But, the only thing it proves is the inability to disprove.

all statements made and presented as truth take on the responsability of proving they are true,

Without using the Bible, prove that Isa(as) is God(swt) or the Son of God(swt)

[Keltoi]

Peace and I intend no disrespect to you as a person,

This is a fool's argument, in that only a fool would fall into the trap of believing it is a bonafide arguement.

This is a case of the statement being offered as proof of the statement.

An often over looked fact in debates is people fail to understand that it is impossable to disprove a false statement. Often people accept the inability to disprove a statement as verification it is true. But, the only thing it proves is the inability to disprove.

all statements made and presented as truth take on the responsability of proving they are true,

Without using the Bible, prove that Isa(as) is God(swt) or the Son of God(swt)

Without using the Bible? How is that supposed to be accomplished? Do you speak of Allah without referencing the Qu'ran?

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[Woodrow]

Without using the Bible? How is that supposed to be accomplished? Do you speak of Allah without referencing the Qu'ran?

Yes, quite often.

Actually as Muslims while we do have faith in the Qur'an, we are encouraged to seek proof of what the Qur'an contains from other sources. A revert to Islam is all but physically forced to seek authenticity of the Qur'an from other sources.

One of the reasons I left Christianity a long time ago is the only proof for Christianity is Christianity. That sunk in when I was in my first semester as a Seminarian, and was the start of why I came to doubt Christianity. The NT tries to be it's own proof that the NT is true. When a statement itself is the source of proof for the statement, in my opinion it has lost a lot of credibility.

[Keltoi]

Yes, quite often.

Actually as Muslims while we do have faith in the Qur'an, we are encouraged to seek proof of what the Qur'an contains from other sources. A revert to Islam is all but physically forced to seek authenticity of the Qur'an from other sources.

One of the reasons I left Christianity a long time ago is the only proof for Christianity is Christianity. That sunk in when I was in my first semester as a Seminarian, and was the start of why I came to doubt Christianity. The NT tries to be it's own proof that the NT is true. When a statement itself is the source of proof for the statement, in my opinion it has lost a lot of credibility.

I find that interesting. So what about Islam do you believe is proof of its existence outside the pages of the Qu'ran?

[Woodrow]

I find that interesting. So what about Islam do you believe is proof of its existence outside the pages of the Qu'ran?

Actually it was from outside sources that I became aware of the verifications. when I began reading the Qur'an nearly 50 years ago, I used it strictly as a linguistic guide to understand the development of the Arabic Language. For most of my life I saw it as interesting, literature but nothing more.

Keep in mind for most of my life I was a Physiological Psychologist, and very scientific in my approaches to all things. I still am.

As I was working in research and some in microscopic studies i began coming across things, not the least of was embyonic development. I realised that what I was learning matched what was in the Qur'an. My lifelong hobby has been astronomy. Again what I have seen through a telescope and learning in readings was again stuff I had read in the Qur'an. Not the least of was the expanding universe. At the time the Qur'an was writen people had a very narrow view of the universe and thought that all of material creation could be seen. There was no concept that the universe is expanding. But, the Qur'an says it is.

Then taking a look at the Qur'an itself. Muhammad(pbuh) is very provable, there is no doubt that he lived. That is historically validated by both his friends an enimies, it is also verifialbe that he did dictate something He told the people was the word of Allah(swt). Again that is verifialbe by both his friends and enemies. There is very much an unbroken chain that shows the Qur'an of today is the same as what Muhammad(pbuh) agreed was what he dictated, That in itself is of no solid proof that the Qur'an is the word of God(swt). However, it is fulfillment of the statement in the Qur'an that the Qur'an is protected and will not be changed.

Then we get the Qur'anic Challange for anybody to write something equal to one ayyat of the Qur'an. Linguistic has always been one of my pet studies and I love the study of languages. Because I did have some familiarity with Arabic, I saw the impact of that statement.

To many Non-Arabic speaking people the challenge to write one ayyat equal to the smallest ayyat is a silly challenge and is fixed as to there is no one to fairly judge such an attempt.

However, if one learns just a few phrases of colloquial Arabic and a single ayyat of the qur'an it becomes apparent as to what that challenge entails and just how miraculous it is.

Arabic is a very paradoxical language. It has some of the worlds most beautiful poetry and music. Yet it is nearly impossible to write Arabic Poetry or Music that can convey a message. to be rather blunt and risk angering my Arabic speaking Brothers and sisters, the spoken Arabic used to conduct daily business or to convey messages is not a very pleasant sounding language to most people. I have often heard it described as sounding like a camel coughing up a hair ball.

Yet, the Qur'an is the most pleasant sounding book ever written. It flows as the most beautiful music and is a poem without equal. However, it has a very clear message that can not be described in Arabic poetry or Music, but it was done in the Qur'an.

It is impossible in Arabic to write such beauty and have it contain any message or convey any constructive thought. But, it does. In Arabic Culture, Poetry is considered a waste of time as it serves no valid purpose. But, the Qur'an does contradict that and is the only Arabic writing that does so.

About the only task I can think of, that comes close to the Qur'anic challenge would be to challenge somebody to write the US constitution set as a song to the tune of Mozart's 5th symphony and still have it make full legal sense. that actually would be an easy task compared to writing one ayyat equal to the smallest ayyat in the Qur'an.

I do not believe Muhammad(PBUH) would have been able to write the Qur'an even if he had been a linguistic scholar and genius. But, here he was an Illiterate salesman, with no writing skills and he writes it. If somebody had done something like that as a school course, there would be an immediate outrage that the person Cheated and he did not write it.

That is what Muhammad(PBUH) did, he did not write it. However he did not cheat as he never claimed authorship

[Woodrow]

to illustrate what I am talking about in reference to the Arabic Language and the challange of the Qur'an.

Listen to this Short Surah from the Qur'an

http://media.putfile.com/Surah-1-Al-Fatihah


Now listen to collqual arabic in this short Arabic lesson:

http://media.putfile.com/ahlan_wa_sahlan_lesson_01

Now look at an interpretation as to what is said in the Qur'anic recitation.

1: 1. In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. S P
1: 2. Praise be to Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds; S P C
1: 3. Most Gracious, Most Merciful; S P
1: 4. Master of the Day of Judgment. S P
1: 5. Thee do we worship, and Thine aid we seek. S P C

1: 6. Show us the straight way, S P C
1: 7. The way of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy Grace, those whose (portion) is not wrath, and who go not astray. S P C

Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

Makes sense, this same type of theme is continued through out the entire Qur'an and each ayyat carries the same melodious sounds while contnuing with a solid message all the way through.

[جوري]

That is a very difficult thing to grasp for anyone who doesn't speak Arabic... how no two suras are alike... if you look at the hadiths by prophet Mohammed PBUH, and the Quran, you can see a very distinctive styles of writing... moreover, the Quran itself has no two suras that are the same stylistically, or rhythmically. in some suras the verses were revealed years apart ( some in mecca and some in medina), yet still flowed, in meaning and rhythm-- No one can attribute its writing style to a particular writer. As it was and still is no one's writing style... Sobhan Allah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2-ie5G9kxo

[Woodrow]

That is a very difficult thing to grasp for anyone who doesn't speak Arabic... how no two suras are alike... if you look at the hadiths by prophet Mohammed PBUH, and the Quran, you can see a very distinctive styles of writing... moreover, the Quran itself has no two suras that are the same stylistically, or rhythmically. in some suras the verses were revealed years apart ( some in mecca and some in medina), yet still flowed, in meaning and rhythm-- No one can attribute its writing style to a particular writer. As it was and still is no one's writing style... Sobhan Allah

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2-ie5G9kxo

The particular writing style has never been seen outside the Qur'an that I am aware of and trying to use Qur'anic Arabic for daily usage is probably imposable. Although there are many dialects of Arabic throughout the world and often the people in one country can not understand the people of another Arabic speaking country, all Arabic speakers can understand the Qur'an.

[جوري]

It is true.. I have traveled through a few countries in the middle east, the most readily understood Arabic is "Egyptian" Arabic-- although it is also the most mocked :-[ for incorrectness lol... and I believe the most difficult to comprehend is the Moroccan/Algerian/ Libyan.. dialects... in fact some of my Moroccan friends I'd rather communicate with them in french as I find their Arabic an impossibility, the words mean completely different things... ex, an (iron)

to them, means something bad that I'll not share here :-[ , Then there are the Berbers and the Bedouins... you might as well learn sign language when it comes to them--- so you are The language of the Quran is the most proper... but no one speaks that correctly now... and certainly not then!

And I must admit though I am fluent in Arabic, there are many words that I need to look up... I am so amazed at how Allah can use one word that Pickthal or Yusefali need an entire sentence to describe... for instance the first few verses of this sura

وَالنَّازِعَاتِ غَرْقًا {1}

[Pickthal 79:1] By those who drag forth to destruction,

وَالنَّاشِطَاتِ نَشْطًا {2}

[Pickthal 79:2] By the meteors rushing,

وَالسَّابِحَاتِ سَبْحًا {3}

[Pickthal 79:3] By the lone stars floating,

فَالسَّابِقَاتِ سَبْقًا {4}

[Pickthal 79:4] By the angels hastening,

فَالْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْرًا {5}

[Pickthal 79:5] And those who govern the event,

يَوْمَ تَرْجُفُ الرَّاجِفَةُ {6}

[Pickthal 79:6] On the day when the first trump resoundeth.

تَتْبَعُهَا الرَّادِفَةُ {7}

[Pickthal 79:7] And the second followeth it,

قُلُوبٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَاجِفَةٌ {8}

[Pickthal 79:8] On that day hearts beat painfully

أَبْصَارُهَا خَاشِعَةٌ {9}

[Pickthal 79:9] While eyes are downcast

يَقُولُونَ أَئِنَّا لَمَرْدُودُونَ فِي الْحَافِرَةِ {10}

[Pickthal 79:10] (Now) they are saying: Shall we really be restored to our first state

أَئِذَا كُنَّا عِظَامًا نَّخِرَةً {11}

[Pickthal 79:11] Even after we are crumbled bones?

قَالُوا تِلْكَ إِذًا كَرَّةٌ خَاسِرَةٌ {12}

[Pickthal 79:12] They say: Then that would be a vain proceeding.

فَإِنَّمَا هِيَ زَجْرَةٌ وَاحِدَةٌ {13}

[Pickthal 79:13] Surely it will need but one shout,

فَإِذَا هُم بِالسَّاهِرَةِ {14}

[Pickthal 79:14] And lo! they will be awakened.

هَلْ أتَاكَ حَدِيثُ مُوسَى {15}

[Pickthal 79:15] Hath there come unto thee the history of Moses?

إِذْ نَادَاهُ رَبُّهُ بِالْوَادِ الْمُقَدَّسِ طُوًى {16}

[Pickthal 79:16] How his Lord called him in the holy vale of Tuwa,

اذْهَبْ إِلَى فِرْعَوْنَ إِنَّهُ طَغَى {17}

[Pickthal 79:17] (Saying Go thou unto Pharaoh - Lo! he hath rebelled -

فَقُلْ هَل لَّكَ إِلَى أَن تَزَكَّى {18}

[Pickthal 79:18] And say (unto him): Hast thou (will) to grow (in grace)?

وَأَهْدِيَكَ إِلَى رَبِّكَ فَتَخْشَى {19}

[Pickthal 79:19] Then I will guide thee to thy Lord and thou shalt fear (Him).

فَأَرَاهُ الْآيَةَ الْكُبْرَى {20}

[Pickthal 79:20] And he showed him the tremendous token.

فَكَذَّبَ وَعَصَى {21}

[Pickthal 79:21] But he denied and disobeyed,

ثُمَّ أَدْبَرَ يَسْعَى {22}

[Pickthal 79:22] Then turned he away in haste,

فَحَشَرَ فَنَادَى {23}

[Pickthal 79:23] Then gathered he and summoned

فَقَالَ أَنَا رَبُّكُمُ الْأَعْلَى {24}

[Pickthal 79:24] And proclaimed: "I (Pharaoh) am your Lord the Highest."

فَأَخَذَهُ اللَّهُ نَكَالَ الْآخِرَةِ وَالْأُولَى {25}

[Pickthal 79:25] So Allah seized him (and made him) an example for the after (life) and for the former.

إِنَّ فِي ذَلِكَ لَعِبْرَةً لِّمَن يَخْشَى {26}

[Pickthal 79:26] Lo! herein is indeed a lesson for him who feareth.

أَأَنتُمْ أَشَدُّ خَلْقًا أَمِ السَّمَاء بَنَاهَا {27}

[Pickthal 79:27] Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built?

رَفَعَ سَمْكَهَا فَسَوَّاهَا {28}

[Pickthal 79:28] He raised the height thereof and ordered it;

وَأَغْطَشَ لَيْلَهَا وَأَخْرَجَ ضُحَاهَا {29}

[Pickthal 79:29] And He made dark the night thereof, and He brought forth the morn thereof.

وَالْأَرْضَ بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ دَحَاهَا {30}

[Pickthal 79:30] And after that He spread the earth,

أَخْرَجَ مِنْهَا مَاءهَا وَمَرْعَاهَا {31

}
[Pickthal 79:31] And produced therefrom the water thereof and the pasture thereof,

وَالْجِبَالَ أَرْسَاهَا {32}

[Pickthal 79:32] And He made fast the hills,

مَتَاعًا لَّكُمْ وَلِأَنْعَامِكُمْ {33}

[Pickthal 79:33] A provision for you and for your cattle.

فَإِذَا جَاءتِ الطَّامَّةُ الْكُبْرَى {34}

[Pickthal 79:34] But when the great disaster cometh,

يَوْمَ يَتَذَكَّرُ الْإِنسَانُ مَا سَعَى {35}

[Pickthal 79:35] The day when man will call to mind his (whole) endeavour,

وَبُرِّزَتِ الْجَحِيمُ لِمَن يَرَى {36}

[Pickthal 79:36] And hell will stand forth visible to him who seeth,

فَأَمَّا مَن طَغَى {37}

[Pickthal 79:37] Then, as for him who rebelled

وَآثَرَ الْحَيَاةَ الدُّنْيَا {38}

[Pickthal 79:38] And chose the life of the world,

فَإِنَّ الْجَحِيمَ هِيَ الْمَأْوَى {39}

[Pickthal 79:39] Lo! hell will be his home.

وَأَمَّا مَنْ خَافَ مَقَامَ رَبِّهِ وَنَهَى النَّفْسَ عَنِ الْهَوَى {40}

[Pickthal 79:40] But as for him who feared to stand before his Lord and restrained his soul from lust,

فَإِنَّ الْجَنَّةَ هِيَ الْمَأْوَى {41}

[Pickthal 79:41] Lo! the Garden will be his home.

يَسْأَلُونَكَ عَنِ السَّاعَةِ أَيَّانَ مُرْسَاهَا {42}

[Pickthal 79:42] They ask thee of the Hour: when will it come to port?

فِيمَ أَنتَ مِن ذِكْرَاهَا {43}

[Pickthal 79:43] Why (ask they)? What hast thou to tell thereof?

إِلَى رَبِّكَ مُنتَهَاهَا {44}

[Pickthal 79:44] Unto thy Lord belongeth (knowledge of) the term thereof.

إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُنذِرُ مَن يَخْشَاهَا {45}

[Pickthal 79:45] Thou art but a warner unto him who feareth it.

كَأَنَّهُمْ يَوْمَ يَرَوْنَهَا لَمْ يَلْبَثُوا إِلَّا عَشِيَّةً أَوْ ضُحَاهَا {46}

[Pickthal 79:46] On the day when they behold it, it will be as if they had but tarried for an evening or the morn thereof
One of the most beautiful recitations I have ever heard.. especially by Sheikh Jibreen.. wish I knew how to upload it so I can share it... in all its melodic beauty and grandeur... gives me goose pimples... sobhan Allah

[Woodrow]

I believe we have covered the part that as Muslims we verify the Qur'an through sources besides the Qur'an and that the proof of the Qur'an being true is shown using sources outside the Qur'an. Be it the study of languages, Astronomy, history or many other sciences.

Now getting back to the first post, to us the NT is meaningless. No matter how many times something is repeated in the NT we can not accept it.

As the only prove there is to show that the NT is true is the NT itself and a statement that says the statement itself proves the statement is true leaves much to leave desired in terms of credibility.

[- Qatada -]

I understand that Muslims do not believe what Jesus said about himself is true in the Bible. I could understand this if it was only once or even twice that He mentions He is the only way to God (Alllah), but when the Bible is replete with such testimonies and Christ's statements, it is not possible to push it off as translational errors or a false witness.

In my opinion, Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon them) may have really said that. Since he came to his people and was a messenger of Allaah sent to them, so how could anyone ever get to Allaah without accepting their Messenger who brought the truth?

Therefore those who were alive at the time of Jesus son of Mary had to accept him and the law revealed to him in order to draw closer to Allaah. What other option did they have?

We sent not a messenger except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.

[Qur'an Abraham 14:4]

Anyone who is sincere, God guides them. However those who are too arrogant to submit go astray to their own loss.


Allaah's final Messenger (peace be upon him) came with the same message as all the previous Prophets - none is worthy of worship except God Alone, your Creator and Sustainer. No soul bears the burden of another, this was the exact religion of Abraham and Moses. Allaah says in His final revelation to mankind:

Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! [Qur'an 5:75]

They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


[Qur'an 5: 72-4]

[Redeemed]

The reply will be that the Apostle Paul made it all up and the rest of Christendom remained silent...but of course that would also mean the whole of Christendom was a lie to begin with. Convenient, but not based on anything than the need to believe such is the case.

Amen to that

[جوري]

I guess the "need to believe" can be assumed of your side as well? .... you already have two other Abrahamic religions giving you a different version of the events... Possible we are wrong? sure :rollseyes .. but Very possible you are wrong as well and just too arrogant to want to see it!
peace!

[Keltoi]

I guess the "need to believe" can be assumed of your side as well? .... you already have two other Abrahamic religions giving you a different version of the events... Possible we are wrong sure :rollseyes .. but Very possible you are wrong as well and just too arrogant to want to see it!
peace!

Arrogant? I don't think anyone has used "arrogance" in their response. Could Christians be wrong? Absolutely. Just as Islam could be wrong. My faith is with Jesus Christ, so I have all confidence that Christ is the way to salvation. You have a different belief. You will never see me post a thread dedicated to prove the Muslim faith is false...I have no interest in it because I have my faith. An unshakable faith. I find those who spend so much of their time trying to convince another faith that they are wrong is evidence of lack of faith. That is simply my opinion. If that is "arrogant" I apologize, because nothing I say or post is done in the spirit of arrogance.

[جوري]

That is funny considering this thread was started by your fellow Christian for exactly that purpose of proving another faith wrong... and ironically done on an Islamic forum... What is that for? I do find your posts arrogant yes.. you don't have to spell the word out for me!

peace!

[Keltoi]

That is funny considering this thread was started by your fellow Christian for exactly that purpose of proving another faith wrong... and ironically done on an Islamic forum... What is that for? I do find your posts arrogant yes.. you don't have to spell the word out for me!

peace!

The thread was started to point out the number of times Christ mentions His relationship with the Almighty. Not to prove your faith wrong. As for being "ironically" on a Muslim forum, this is a comparative religion section, not the Islam section. As for being arrogant, perhaps you should look in the mirror before you label others.

[جوري]

The thread was started to point out the number of times Christ mentions His relationship with the Almighty. Not to prove your faith wrong. As for being "ironically" on a Muslim forum, this is a comparative religion section, not the Islam section. As for being arrogant, perhaps you should look in the mirror before you label others.

Yes not wanting to prove my faith wrong is so very apparent from your previous statements--
And, It is indeed comparative religion on a Muslim forum try to observe some of its rules!
I have tired of shuffling you between threads... And I need to make Mughrib prayer... seeing how much it itches you to always have the last statement and this almost pathological need to always be right by all means go ahead! Enjoy!

[Keltoi]

Yes not wanting to prove my faith wrong is so very apparent from your previous statements--
And, It is indeed comparative religion on a Muslim forum try to observe some of its rules!
I have tired of shuffling you between threads... And I need to make Mughrib prayer... seeing how much it itches you to always have the last statement and this almost pathological need to always be right by all means go ahead! Enjoy!

I would challenge you to find one post of mine with the intention of proving Islam to be false. You won't find it.

As for the rules I'm breaking, what are those? Report me to a mod if you believe this to be the case and we will see if they agree.

[snakelegs]

I understand that Muslims do not believe what Jesus said about himself is true in the Bible. I could understand this if it was only once or even twice that He mentions He is the only way to God (Alllah), but when the Bible is replete with such testimonies and Christ's statements, it is not possible to push it off as translational errors or a false witness.

actually, it is very possible if you are not christian and don't believe in the NT = you don't accept the presmise in the first place so it means nothing.

[Keltoi]

actually, it is very possible if you are not christian and don't believe in the NT = you don't accept the presmise in the first place so it means nothing.

Well, not accepting the NT is one thing, stating that the NT doesn't support this notion is something else entirely.

[Umar001]

I understand that Muslims do not believe what Jesus said about himself is true in the Bible. I could understand this if it was only once or even twice that He mentions He is the only way to God (Alllah), but when the Bible is replete with such testimonies and Christ's statements, it is not possible to push it off as translational errors or a false witness.

Are you totally oblivious to the reality behind the compilation of the Bible? Have you studied it at all?

First, no Muslim would deny in totality that to some people and some time Jesus was their only way to Salavation.

Second of all you seem to fail to understand the circumstances in which the present text of the Bible has reached us.

EDIT:
You've still yet to show that the Bible is a trustworthy account of Jesus' life from the other thread, wonder if you'll ever get round to that.

The reply will be that the Apostle Paul made it all up and the rest of Christendom remained silent...but of course that would also mean the whole of Christendom was a lie to begin with. Convenient, but not based on anything than the need to believe such is the case.

Actually that isnt the reply from me. :X

[Redeemed]

This is the way I see it, it all goes back to Isaac Abraham's son and Ishmael Hagar's son. Ishmael and Isaac them be brothers man who worshiped the same God. Both of them received a promise from God. Ishmael was promised to be numerous and a powerful nation that would be highly independent and self-sufficient. The Muslims are from the seed of Ishmael and the Christians are from the seed of Isaac, but Isaac was the seed of promise from where the Messiah would come (Jesus) He came to His own and they didn’t receive Him. Lets call a spade a spade. The Arabs, in my opinion, deserve more credit than the Jews, because they at least recognize and receive Him as a great prophet. The Jews totally reject Him as a nation. Jesus just said too many things that allude to who He is in relationship to God that proves the Jews are wrong about Him and the Muslims do not give Him his due either. We are told that the New Testament is a farce and Paul made up the whole thing. This could be said about any spiritual leader. Mohammad didn’t say he was the only way to God, but Jesus did. I would rather error believing Jesus than any other prophet that tells me that Jesus is not who He says He is. Jesus never mentions the term trinity; in fact, no one for that matter in the Bible including Paul uses that term. I have heard it mentioned more by Muslims that the Catholic Church. Incidentally, I think the Catholic Church in general has made the laws of God to no affect with all of its tradition that is not Biblically based. Let's look at Jesus in a little more depth.

References are available upon request: Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" He said, "No one comes unto the Father (Allah, God Almighty, The Lord) but by Me" Mary worshipped him on His feet. He didn't try to stop her in the way angels or any men of God would for people doing that. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I AM" When Thomas put his hand in the wounds that put Jesus to death, he said of Jesus "My Lord and my God." Jesus didn't deny it or rebuke him for saying it. Jesus didn't explicitly say He was God because He wanted you to realize it for yourself. Philip said show us the Father and we'll be happy. Jesus said, "I have been with you. Don't you know me?" Jesus said, I am the Alpha and Omega beginning and the end. God said the same about Himself in Isaiah. Jehova said there is no God besides me and I share not my glory with another. Jesus claims these titles unto Himself. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and follow me. I can hear His voice. That is why I follow Him. The Bible is replete with Jesus being the total Spiritual Sum of All things. He said, "The Father Judges no one but has committed all judgment to (Jesus) the Son so that you will honor Him the same as you honor the Father" (Allah). To reduce Jesus equal to an angel or just a prophet is blasphemous to us followers of Christ. Jesus is named "Immanuel" that means GOD with us. It is written do not be like the Ox that needs a bit and bridle to see what truth is. He said, I am in the Father and the Father is in me. He is the exact representation of all that God is. He is in the very nature God. What is the difference in essences if you put the bag in the cup or put the cup in the bag? It is equal in mass and weight even if the volume is different. Jesus was a man so the man part of Him was under the Father’s authority, but He was no less deity. Just like you have a son who is under you, but he is no less human than you. If one doesn’t honor Jesus as his creator, as the Bible states He is, then one does not honor God, Allah or the Lord.

This question has been asked many times and in different ways and yet it really hasn't been addressed: What did the writers of the New Testament have to gain by perpetuating a hoax? Why would Paul go through beatings and ship wreck and even lose his life at the end just for a hoax. These men lived by faith and were willing to die for what they believed. That in itself doesn't make something true, but it shows they weren't faking anything. Many people have had supernatural experiences, which cannot be proved. The question is who was giving the supernatural signs the devil or God. This thing and difference we have in religion is too big to deal with using human finite ability. Only God can reveal the truth and bear witness with our spirit for confirmation of what is true. We are dealing with power in the spiritual world.

[جوري]

The reply will be that the Apostle Paul made it all up and the rest of Christendom remained silent...but of course that would also mean the whole of Christendom was a lie to begin with. Convenient, but not based on anything than the need to believe such is the case.

challenge me? what is this a duel? You are so funny--- & What do you call this post a really subtle hint? I have no time to rummage through your old posts... unless I needed a good dose of an anesthetics ..

peace!

[Woodrow]

I will just go back to my original statement. Prove that the NT is the truth, without using the NT as the proof.

[Umar001]

Mohammad didn’t say he was the only way to God, but Jesus did.

Are you sure? This is what I mean.

References are available upon request: Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" He said, "No one comes unto the Father (Allah, God Almighty, The Lord) but by Me" Mary worshipped him on His feet. He didn't try to stop her in the way angels or any men of God would for people doing that. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I AM" When Thomas put his hand in the wounds that put Jesus to death, he said of Jesus "My Lord and my God." Jesus didn't deny it or rebuke him for saying it. Jesus didn't explicitly say He was God because He wanted you to realize it for yourself. Philip said show us the Father and we'll be happy. Jesus said, "I have been with you. Don't you know me?" Jesus said, I am the Alpha and Omega beginning and the end. God said the same about Himself in Isaiah. Jehova said there is no God besides me and I share not my glory with another. Jesus claims these titles unto Himself. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and follow me. I can hear His voice. That is why I follow Him. The Bible is replete with Jesus being the total Spiritual Sum of All things. He said, "The Father Judges no one but has committed all judgment to (Jesus) the Son so that you will honor Him the same as you honor the Father" (Allah). To reduce Jesus equal to an angel or just a prophet is blasphemous to us followers of Christ. Jesus is named "Immanuel" that means GOD with us. It is written do not be like the Ox that needs a bit and bridle to see what truth is. He said, I am in the Father and the Father is in me. He is the exact representation of all that God is. He is in the very nature God. What is the difference in essences if you put the bag in the cup or put the cup in the bag? It is equal in mass and weight even if the volume is different. Jesus was a man so the man part of Him was under the Father’s authority, but He was no less deity. Just like you have a son who is under you, but he is no less human than you. If one doesn’t honor Jesus as his creator, as the Bible states He is, then one does not honor God, Allah or the Lord.

You fail to understand that all the above can be spoken about and explained. I wish you would listen sometimes, evidently you do the opposite of the Bible!

This question has been asked many times and in different ways and yet it really hasn't been addressed: What did the writers of the New Testament have to gain by perpetuating a hoax? Why would Paul go through beatings and ship wreck and even lose his life at the end just for a hoax. These men lived by faith and were willing to die for what they believed. That in itself doesn't make something true, but it shows they weren't faking anything. Many people have had supernatural experiences, which cannot be proved. The question is who was giving the supernatural signs the devil or God. This thing and difference we have in religion is too big to deal with using human finite ability. Only God can reveal the truth and bear witness with our spirit for confirmation of what is true. We are dealing with power in the spiritual world.

Or maybe they didnt forge it on purpose? Do you actually pay attention to any of the theories we put forward?

[snakelegs]

Well, not accepting the NT is one thing, stating that the NT doesn't support this notion is something else entirely.

i agree and i would never say that. after all, if it didn't, there would be no christianity! it is just that if you are not a christian, it is not a credible source.

[Redeemed]

Correct me if I am wrong. Did he say he was the only way or did he say his message was the only way? Jesus said, He was the Way period! I am not stupid. I sent the same response because I didn't understand you theory, but am trying to. No one has the right to judge me by saying I am not listening or trying just because I am slow to catch on to your theory if you can call it that. I might call it or give it credit as an hypothesis first. Nevertheless, I am having trouble seeing it the way you do.

[Keltoi]

challenge me? what is this a duel? You are so funny--- & What do you call this post a really subtle hint? I have no time to rummage through your old posts... unless I needed a good dose of an anesthetics ..

peace!

You made the claim that I have made posts intended to prove Islam false....I "challenged" you to back up your claim. It isn't my fault if you made the claim without evidence.

[جوري]

You made the claim that I have made posts intended to prove Islam false....I "challenged" you to back up your claim. It isn't my fault if you made the claim without evidence.

Did you read the phrase you wrote that we have highlighted for you from your previous post? What other name do you have for that? "an obvious need to believe"? What am I exactly to infer from that.. aside from your contentious nature..

[Keltoi]

I will just go back to my original statement. Prove that the NT is the truth, without using the NT as the proof.

I still don't really understand what you're saying. Nothing you posted previously convinced me of the truth in the Qu'ran. The reality is that both faiths are based on the words in our Holy Books, everything else stems from that.

[Woodrow]

There really is not much sense in any of us getting into an uproar. The only thing that we will prove here is that Christians do not believe the Qur'an is the word of Allah(swt) and Muslims do not believe the NT is the word of God(swt).

I am satisfied I have seen sufficient proof to prove that the Qur'an is true and I am certain that Christians are satisfied they have seen sufficient proof that the Bible is true.

The irony is neither of us want to see anyone go to the Hellfire.

[Keltoi]

Did you read the phrase you wrote that we have highlighted for you from your previous post? What other name do you have for that? "an obvious need to believe"? What am I exactly to infer from that.. aside from your contentious nature..

The fact that I don't believe in the truth of the Qu'ran or Muslims claims about the truth of the NT isn't attacking Islam. That is a consequence of my faith. The "obvious need to believe" is based on the reality that both faiths cannot be correct. Muslims would say the same thing about Christianity.

[Umar001]

Correct me if I am wrong. Did he say he was the only way or did he say his message was the only way? Jesus said, He was the Way period! I am not stupid. I sent the same response because I didn't understand you theory, but am trying to. No one has the right to judge me by saying I am not listening or trying just because I am slow to catch on to your theory if you can call it that. I might call it or give it credit as an hypothesis first. Nevertheless, I am having trouble seeing it the way you do.

Again, Muhammad, peace be upon him, spoke of himself being a distinguishing factor for some people, i.e. he was the only way.

As for the rest, noone is saying your stupid, nor am I asking you to see through the same lenses as me.

[Redeemed]

Are you sure? This is what I mean.



You fail to understand that all the above can be spoken about and explained. I wish you would listen sometimes, evidently you do the opposite of the Bible!




Or maybe they didnt forge it on purpose? Do you actually pay attention to any of the theories we put forward?

If they didn't forge it on purpose why did it happen, and can't that be said about any spiritual leader? Correct me if I am wrong. Did the prophet Mohammad say he was the only way or did he say his message was the only way? Jesus said, He was the only Way period! I am not stupid. I sent the same response because I didn't understand your theory, but am trying to. No one has the right to judge me by saying I am not listening or trying just because I am slow to catch on to your theories if you can call it that. I might call it or give it credit as an hypothesis first. Nevertheless, I am having trouble seeing it the way you do. that doesn't mean Ia m not interested in learning about Islam. I am trying to get one of those free Qu'rans, but I am having trouble securing one. When I get one, I am going to study it.

[جوري]

The fact that I don't believe in the truth of the Qu'ran or Muslims claims about the truth of the NT isn't attacking Islam. That is a consequence of my faith. The "obvious need to believe" is based on the reality that both faiths cannot be correct. Muslims would say the same thing about Christianity.

Christianity was correct for a time and for specific people (Bani Israel).. So, you are wrong in your assumption! I don't believe the current state of Christianity to be correct! however I can't deny Jesus PBUH or the book he originally brought, or Moses before him, or Abraham before him, or David, as mandated by the Quran-- I have a bible of barnabas here in Arabic, that I can very much relate to its contents. Its message is clear... No where does he say I am G-D worship me... and There is mention of prophet Mohammed. I might simply ask you why do you not follow the OT when you can't deny its message? To which you'd answer?

You have to completely dismiss the Quran and all its contents, as the Jews do with the bible and all its contents to which you might simply shrug your shoulder at their state of denial...I can't deny the previous messages or messengers. and in fact can't understand how anyone who is read can explain the Quran as anything other than the last revelation.



peace

[Redeemed]

Again, Muhammad, peace be upon him, spoke of himself being a distinguishing factor for some people, i.e. he was the only way.

As for the rest, noone is saying your stupid, nor am I asking you to see through the same lenses as me.

Hang on, I am getting ahead of myself here. I have responded as if you didn't. Ok my mistake. Sorr,y I do get excited and a little over zealous. I don't mean to be annoying or abrasive, but I don't know hor to change that. I am depending of the Lord to refine me.

[Redeemed]

Again, Muhammad, peace be upon him, spoke of himself being a distinguishing factor for some people, i.e. he was the only way.

As for the rest, noone is saying your stupid, nor am I asking you to see through the same lenses as me.

What do you mean I do the the opposite of the Bible? Do you mean quick to listen slow to speak or something else? If that is what you mean, I am quick to listen and slow to speak, but I am slow to read and quick to write LOL.

[Umar001]

What do you mean I do the the opposite of the Bible? Do you mean quick to listen slow to speak or something else? If that is what you mean, I am quick to listen and slow to speak, but I am slow to read and quick to write LOL.

Lol well be quick to read and slow to write :)

[Woodrow]

I still don't really understand what you're saying. Nothing you posted previously convinced me of the truth in the Qu'ran. The reality is that both faiths are based on the words in our Holy Books, everything else stems from that.

Back to square one. You ever get the feeling that perhaps we both have a different criteria for what we accept as proof?

I doubt if either of us will accept the other's criteria. I know there is nothing I could say or do that would convince you to accept what I see as clear proof and the opposite is true. What you see as clear proof for your belief is invisible to me.

In reality all Power is with God(swt). What will be, will be the will of Him Inshallah.

I know I will not change my choice and that I have seen what I acknowledge to be the truth, and that is where it will stay. I really see it as being pointless and a lesson in futility to attempt to argue without everybody having the same point of reference.

[Keltoi]

Christianity was correct for a time and for specific people (Bani Israel).. So, you are wrong in your assumption! I don't believe the current state of Christianity to be correct! however I can't deny Jesus PBUH or the book he originally brought, or Moses before him, or Abraham before him, or David, as mandated by the Quran-- I have a bible of barnabas here in Arabic, that I can very much relate to its contents. Its message is clear... No where does he say I am G-D worship me... and There is mention of prophet Mohammed. I might simply ask you why do you not follow the OT when you can't deny its message? To which you'd answer?

You have to completely dismiss the Quran and all its contents, as the Jews do with the bible and all its contents to which you might simply shrug your shoulder at their state of denial...I can't deny the previous messages or messengers. and in fact can't understand how anyone who is read can explain the Quran as anything other than the last revelation.



peace

Well, the "bible" of Barnabas aside, which isn't accepted as authentic by Christians, it is the New Testament that Christians look to for guidance. Just as you believe the Qu'ran is a continuation, we believe the New Testament to be a continuation. Christians do not believe Muhammed brought the last revelation because it is Jesus Christ who brought the last revelation. That is where the line is drawn, and nothing is going to change that besides God Himself.

[Keltoi]

:D

Back to square one. You ever get the feeling that perhaps we both have a different criteria for what we accept as proof?

I doubt if either of us will accept the other's criteria. I know there is nothing I could say or do that would convince you to accept what I see as clear proof and the opposite is true. What you see as clear proof for your belief is invisible to me.

In reality all Power is with God(swt). What will be, will be the will of Him Inshallah.

I know I will not change my choice and that I have seen what I acknowledge to be the truth, and that is where it will stay. I really see it as being pointless and a lesson in futility to attempt to argue without everybody having the same point of reference.

I agree. This really is a circular argument. I respect your views and the sincerity of your faith as I hope you do mine. It seems like we must all go through this old song and dance occasionally, with the end result being the same. Nothing has changed. :D

[Redeemed]

Lol well be quick to read and slow to write :)

OK, I submit to that.

[MustafaMc]

I understand that Muslims do not believe what Jesus said about himself is true in the Bible.

Perhaps you would like to quote Jesus in a few of Bibilical verses to illustrate your point.

[جوري]

Well, the "bible" of Barnabas aside, which isn't accepted as authentic by Christians, it is the New Testament that Christians look to for guidance. Just as you believe the Qu'ran is a continuation, we believe the New Testament to be a continuation. Christians do not believe Muhammed brought the last revelation because it is Jesus Christ who brought the last revelation. That is where the line is drawn, and nothing is going to change that besides God Himself.

lol.. one would wonder what you deem authentic or not with the tons of versions you have--Even other bibles In Arabic are nothing like the one you hold (but that aside). ... I guess what you are saying is the same as a Moses brought the "ONLY" first and last testament as per Tanakh and nothing is going to change that... I am now convinced...
thanks

[Umar001]

My question would be does anyone notice any difference in the gospels in the answer given by the disciple to this question?

[Keltoi]

lol.. one would wonder what you deem authentic or not with the tons of versions you have--Even other bibles In Arabic are nothing like the one you hold (but that aside). ... I guess what you are saying is the same as a Moses brought the "ONLY" first and last testament as per Tanakh and nothing is going to change that... I am now convinced...
thanks

The first of your post has been addressed in numerous posts, so I don't see any reason to fall into that argument here.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the last of the post. Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the final Messenger of God, bringing the way to salvation for all mankind. If that is what you were trying to suggest, then you are correct, that is our belief.

[Keltoi]

My question would be does anyone notice any difference in the gospels in the answer given by the disciple to this question?

"You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God"...that answer?

[Umar001]

"You are the Messiah, the Son of the Living God"...that answer?

Thats Matthew's Account Am Guessing?

[جوري]

The first of your post has been addressed in numerous posts, so I don't see any reason to fall into that argument here.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the last of the post. Christians believe that Jesus Christ was the final Messenger of God, bringing the way to salvation for all mankind. If that is what you were trying to suggest, then you are correct, that is our belief.

I notice you are not sure of what alot of people are trying to say! Why are you so confused? Are you from bani ISrael?
'I have not been sent except to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.' (Matthew 15:24)[1] Hence every one of the famous twelve disciples of Jesus was an Israelite Jew. The one biblical passage where Jesus is supposed to have told his disciples to 'Go and preach unto all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.' (Matthew 28:19), commonly quoted to prove the Gentile mission as well as the Trinity, is not found in any pre-sixteenth century manuscript and is thus considered 'a pious fraud'.

So we fail to see how that means a final message to all of man kind...
but if it is your belief then by all means.. but don't be telling us about our "obvious need to believe"--

peace!

[MustafaMc]

Thats Matthew's Account Am Guessing?

Matthew 16:13-17 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is?And they said, Some [say] John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

or

Mark 8:27-30 And Jesus went forth, and his disciples, into the villages of Caesarea Philippi: and on the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Who do men say that I am? And they told him, saying, John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but others, One of the prophets. And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. Also Luke 9:18-21 is very similar to Mark, but the discourse is not mentioned in John.

Note that Peter's answer was slightly different as was Jesus' response to his answer. Which one is an exact quote for what was said? Perhaps, Jesus' response was actually Mark 8:33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

For that matter which Lord's prayer did he tell the disciples to pray?

Luke 11:2-4 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Father, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we ourselves also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And bring us not into temptation.

or

Matthew 6:9-13After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.]

This points to a dramatic difference between the Talmud, New Testament and the Quran. Only the Quran contains ver batim the words actually spoken by the messenger who revealed it. Which Gospel, first verse to the last, is the literal words spoken by Jesus? Where did the inspiration for the NT come from and when? Was it when the books were written down or was it in the 4th century when the books of the Catholic Bible were decided upon at the Council of Hippo?

[Redeemed]

Perhaps you would like to quote Jesus in a few of Bibilical verses to illustrate your point.

Muslims and Christians both have a promise, but my preference is to be a Christian. It all started with Abraham's wife Sarah and Hagar Sarah’s handmaid. Ishmael is the seed of Abraham and so is Isaac. Them dudes be brothers that worshiped the same God man. And the whole world is caught up in a family feud. Ishmael has a promise to be a powerful nation which is self-sufficient and Isaac has the seed of promise. The Christians come from the Isaac side and the Muslims come from the Ishmael side. They are both carrying God’s promise, but only one is free. One can serve God in freedom the other cannot because they are under the law. One represents the law and trying to please God with works and the other does it by faith that works through love but works are not the focus. According to the Bible, whom the Son sets free is free in deed.


Allah refers to Jesus as God in Hebrews "But thy (Jesus) throne Oh God is established forever... "Jesus was a man of course He was subordinate to His Father in Heaven, but He was no less deity. Just like as if you have a son, he would be under you but no less human. Besides, God is only one. God is a Spirit and Jesus represents His word that was made flesh. Jesus is the word of God, and the Bible says that He exalts His word above His name. The Bible is replete with Jesus saying He is the only way to God, and with the Son giving glory to the Father and the Father glorifying the Son. Anyone trying to get to heaven in any other fashion then submit to the Lordship of Jesus will not make it according to the Scriptures.
References are available upon request: Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" He said, "No one comes unto the Father (Allah, God Almighty, The Lord) but by Me" Mary worshipped him on His feet. He didn't try to stop her in the way angels or any men of God would for people doing that. Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I AM" When Thomas put his hand in the wounds that put Jesus to death, he said of Jesus "My Lord and my God." Jesus didn't deny it or rebuke him for saying it. Jesus didn't explicitly say He was God because He wanted you to realize it for yourself. Philip said show us the Father and we'll be happy. Jesus said I have been with you. Don't you know me. Jesus said I am the Alpha and Omega beginning and the end. God said the same about Himself in Isaiah. He said there is no God besides me and I share not my glory with another. Jesus claims these titles unto Himself. If you have seen me you have seen the Father. Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and follow me. I can hear His voice. That is why I follow Him. The Bible is replete with Jesus being the total Spiritual Sum of All things. He said the Father Judges no one but has committed all judgment to Jesus the Son so that you will honor him the same as you honor the Father (Allah). To reduce Jesus to a mere angel or prophet is blasphemous to us followers of Christ. Jesus is named Immanuel that means GOD with us. It is written do not be like the Ox that needs a bit and bridle to see what truth is. He said, I am in the Father and the Father is in me. He is the exact representation of all that God is He is in the very nature God. What is the difference in essences if you put the bag in the cup or put the cup in the bag? It is equal in mass and weight even if the volume is different. Jesus was a man so the man part of Him was under the Father’s authority, but He was no less deity. Just like you have a son who is under you, but he is no less human than you. If one doesn’t honor Jesus as his creator, as the Bible states He is, then one does not honor God, Allah or the Lord.

If I am not mistaken, according to the Qur’an Mohammed is the messenger, but according to the Bible Jesus is the Message. The Bible states that He is our only hope of salvation. That is why I am a follower of Jesus. The Qur’an states that Jesus is a great prophet, but I don't believe it gives an accurate picture of who Jesus really is. Mohammed is also considered a great prophet. I like to compare and contrast the two. Jesus was born of a virgin that is a confirmed fact according to both the Bible and the Qur’an. Jesus according to the Qur’an is like the Bible says the Word of God. Some twist it to say He is a word just like the JW's twist their Watch tower version of the Bible to say that the word was a god. That article "a" is not a part of the deal in the orginial text. Jesus was born of a virgin not Mohammed. Jesus rose from the dead (which you don’t believe) not Mohammed. The Bible says that every tongue will confess and every knee bow that Jesus is Lord to the glory of Allah, and He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords; He is the bright morning star, Lily of the valley, the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, the Alfa and Omega, the beginning and the end, there is no one like Him. He is the Lion of the tribe of Judah and the mighty God. According to the Bible, which you believe is corrupted and we don't, if we do not submit to Him in this life, the devil takes us after we die. We are free to choose as we wish, but we will not be free from the consequences of our choices. I hope this answers your questions.

[Redeemed]

Matthew 16:13-17 Now when Jesus came into the parts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Who do men say that the Son of man is?And they said, Some [say] John the Baptist; some, Elijah; and others, Jeremiah, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But who say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

or

Mark 8:27-30 And Jesus went forth, and his disciples, into the villages of Caesarea Philippi: and on the way he asked his disciples, saying unto them, Who do men say that I am? And they told him, saying, John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; but others, One of the prophets. And he asked them, But who say ye that I am? Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ. And he charged them that they should tell no man of him. Also Luke 9:18-21 is very similar to Mark, but the discourse is not mentioned in John.

Note that Peter's answer was slightly different as was Jesus' response to his answer. Which one is an exact quote for what was said? Perhaps, Jesus' response was actually Mark 8:33 But he turning about, and seeing his disciples, rebuked Peter, and saith, Get thee behind me, Satan; for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

For that matter which Lord's prayer did he tell the disciples to pray?

Luke 11:2-4 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Father, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we ourselves also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And bring us not into temptation.

or

Matthew 6:9-13After this manner therefore pray ye. Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil [one.]

This points to a dramatic difference between the Talmud, New Testament and the Quran. Only the Quran contains ver batim the words actually spoken by the messenger who revealed it. Which Gospel, first verse to the last, is the literal words spoken by Jesus? Where did the inspiration for the NT come from and when? Was it when the books were written down or was it in the 4th century when the books of the Catholic Bible were decided upon at the Council of Hippo?

Just because Jesus said don't tell anyone doesn't mean He was denying that He was the Son of God, and Peter was rebuked because he was trying to tell Jesus he wasn't going to die for the sins of the world.

[Redeemed]

My question would be does anyone notice any difference in the gospels in the answer given by the disciple to this question?

Maybe you can explain why you feel that difference is signficant. Then I or we can take it from there.

[don532]

This points to a dramatic difference between the Talmud, New Testament and the Quran. Only the Quran contains ver batim the words actually spoken by the messenger who revealed it. Which Gospel, first verse to the last, is the literal words spoken by Jesus? Where did the inspiration for the NT come from and when? Was it when the books were written down or was it in the 4th century when the books of the Catholic Bible were decided upon at the Council of Hippo?

Greetings.

Yes they are different. Different people, even if they were eyewitnesses to an event, rarely report the event in question using identical words. If the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were identical, the charge would be made there was only one author and all the others were copies. Christians don't believe the differences in the way the accounts were reported change the message.

The books of the Bible were written well before the councils of Hippo and Nicea. One of the criteria in the canon was that the document had had continuous acceptance and usage by the church at large. The documents selected didn't derive their authority from being selected for inclusion into the Bible, each one was authoritative before before anyone gathered them together.

"The book of Acts, written by Luke, ends when Paul was under house arrest. Paul is a central figure in Acts, but the book ends before Paul's death. That can reasonably place Acts as having been written sometime before 62 AD. Since Acts is the second of a two part work, the other part being Luke, Luke must have been written earlier than that. And since Luke incorporates parts of the gospel of Mark, Mark was most likely written even earlier...." - source Craig L. Blomberg Ph.D.

Peace

[Umar001]

Greetings.

Yes they are different. Different people, even if they were eyewitnesses to an event, rarely report the event in question using identical words. If the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were identical, the charge would be made there was only one author and all the others were copies. Christians don't believe the differences in the way the accounts were reported change the message.

Howdy don,

And what rules out the fact of changes made knowingly?

[don532]

Howdy don,

And what rules out the fact of changes made knowingly?

Howdy!

Can you please be more specific? I'd like to make sure I understand you question correctly.

[MustafaMc]

Yes they are different. Different people, even if they were eyewitnesses to an event, rarely report the event in question using identical words. If the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were identical, the charge would be made there was only one author and all the others were copies. Christians don't believe the differences in the way the accounts were reported change the message.

The point that you made here can be applied to our second source of religous knowledge, the hadith. The books of hadith such as Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood are collections of what someone remembered the Prophet (pbuh) or his companions said or did. There are small differences between different narrators of the same situation, but they convey basically the same message. I see a strong analogy between Islamic hadith and the 4 gospels and the book of Acts of the NT. A point of difference, however, is that Muslims (to my knowledge) don't consider even strong hadith to be "inspired by God", but rather authentic narrations to show how the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions applied the Quran and the Islamic message to their lives.

Muslims claim that every word of the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibrael) and that every word has been accurately preserved without change for the past 1400 years. Note that the Quran has been preserved in the Arabic language of revelation. When I say "Qul huwa 'Allaah 'ah.ad, 'Allaah as.- s.amad, lam yalid wa- lam yolad, wa- lam yakun la- -hu kufuw(an) 'ah.ad" not only is the meaning the same as what was originally intended, but the sound is also the same.

Can Christians make the same claim about the Bible? Can Christians claim with any confidence that Jesus actually said verbatim even one verse of the NT that is attributed to him?

[Woodrow]

The point that you made here can be applied to our second source of religous knowledge, the hadith. The books of hadith such as Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood are collections of what someone remembered the Prophet (pbuh) or his companions said or did. There are small differences between different narrators of the same situation, but they convey basically the same message. I see a strong analogy between Islamic hadith and the 4 gospels and the book of Acts of the NT. A point of difference, however, is that Muslims (to my knowledge) don't consider even strong hadith to be "inspired by God", but rather authentic narrations to show how the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions applied the Quran and the Islamic message to their lives.

Muslims claim that every word of the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibrael) and that every word has been accurately preserved without change for the past 1400 years. Note that the Quran has been preserved in the Arabic language of revelation. When I say "Qul huwa 'Allaah 'ah.ad, 'Allaah as.- s.amad, lam yalid wa- lam yolad, wa- lam yakun la- -hu kufuw(an) 'ah.ad" not only is the meaning the same as what was originally intended, but the sound is also the same.

Can Christians make the same claim about the Bible? Can Christians claim with any confidence that Jesus actually said verbatim even one verse of the NT that is attributed to him?

Very good the Ahadith do correlate very much to the concept of the Christian Gospel. And you are right they are the eyewitness accounts of men and not the word of God(swt) we do see them as true accounts, but they are not the word of Allah(swt) The Qur'an alone is the true word. If the Ahadith existed without the Qur'an we would not be able to say one word in it could be proven to be something Allah(swt) said. We follow and obey the Ahadith because they are eyewitness accounts as to how Muhammad(PBUH) followed the Qur'an.

[Redeemed]

The point that you made here can be applied to our second source of religous knowledge, the hadith. The books of hadith such as Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Dawood are collections of what someone remembered the Prophet (pbuh) or his companions said or did. There are small differences between different narrators of the same situation, but they convey basically the same message. I see a strong analogy between Islamic hadith and the 4 gospels and the book of Acts of the NT. A point of difference, however, is that Muslims (to my knowledge) don't consider even strong hadith to be "inspired by God", but rather authentic narrations to show how the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions applied the Quran and the Islamic message to their lives.

Muslims claim that every word of the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (Jibrael) and that every word has been accurately preserved without change for the past 1400 years. Note that the Quran has been preserved in the Arabic language of revelation. When I say "Qul huwa 'Allaah 'ah.ad, 'Allaah as.- s.amad, lam yalid wa- lam yolad, wa- lam yakun la- -hu kufuw(an) 'ah.ad" not only is the meaning the same as what was originally intended, but the sound is also the same.

Can Christians make the same claim about the Bible? Can Christians claim with any confidence that Jesus actually said verbatim even one verse of the NT that is attributed to him?

You have raised some interesting points. The Bible and the story of Jesus goes back further than Muhammad or 1400 years ago, but the Bible has passed through some language translations, but yes, we do have access to the original text in Hebrew and Greek. There are definitely transnational errors in the Bible and some problems where there appears to be even contradictions, but never concerning the deity of Christ. Things might be worded differently because of the different witnesses, and not everyone sees the same things in the same way. The message is clear in the Bible however. When Jesus asked who do you say I am, the disciple said you are the Son of the living God. Jesus told him that flesh and blood did not reveal this to you God did. Muslims don't believe that this is a true record and his word, but we do; moreover, we would doubt any book or account that would try to deny the validity of Jesus' words and questions as recorded in the Bible. If Jesus asks you who do you say I am, what would you say?

[MustafaMc]

If Jesus asks you who do you say I am, what would you say?

God willing, I would answer truthfully.

As a Muslim, I believe that Jesus is the son of Mary and that he was born without a father. I believe that Jesus was created in the womb of Mary when Allah said, "Be!" and he was. I believe that Jesus is among the most honored of all humans, that he was a Prophet and a Messenger of the One God and that he is one of the ones brought near to God. I believe that he performed many miracles on earth by the Will of God. I believe that he did not die on the cross rather he was raised to Heaven without dying and that he will return near the end of time to estsablish true Islamic rule throughout the earth. I believe that on Judgement Day Jesus will disassociate himself from Christianity and that he will deny telling people to worship him instead of the One God. I don't believe that Jesus is God, Son of God, a human manifestation of God, or anything approaching God's equal.

God willing, if someone appeared now performing miracles, claiming to be Jesus and compelling people to bow down and worship him that I would answer as Jesus is supposedly quoted to have said in Matthew 4:8-10 Again, the devil taketh him unto an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and he said unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. I believe that worship is reserved for Allah alone.

[Redeemed]

God willing, I would answer truthfully.

As a Muslim, I believe that Jesus is the son of Mary and that he was born without a father. I believe that Jesus was created in the womb of Mary when Allah said, "Be!" and he was. I believe that Jesus is among the most honored of all humans, that he was a Prophet and a Messenger of the One God and that he is one of the ones brought near to God. I believe that he performed many miracles on earth by the Will of God. I believe that he did not die on the cross rather he was raised to Heaven without dying and that he will return near the end of time to estsablish true Islamic rule throughout the earth. I believe that on Judgement Day Jesus will disassociate himself from Christianity and that he will deny telling people to worship him instead of the One God. I don't believe that Jesus is God, Son of God, a human manifestation of God, or anything approaching God's equal.

God willing, if someone appeared now performing miracles, claiming to be Jesus and compelling people to bow down and worship him that I would answer as Jesus is supposedly quoted to have said in Matthew 4:8-10 Again, the devil taketh him unto an exceeding high mountain, and showeth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; and he said unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. I believe that worship is reserved for Allah alone.

This has been the most interesting and informative thing I have ever read on an Islamic forum. This gives me a very good picture of the Islamic Faith. Are you the only Muslim that believes this or is this the common belief? One of the most important things I heard you say is that Jesus was born of Mary without an earthly Father. I believe and I think this is common among Christians that Jesus is of course the son of Mary (the man part of Jesus). But the deity part makes Him The Son of the Father in heaven (God). I too would not bend my knee to the God of this world (Satan who wanted Jesus' worship), but I would bow before Jesus; in fact, The Bible states that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. I believe He died rose and is coming back not as a Lamb but as the King of Glory. I believe every knee will bow. Those who love His appearing and even His enemies will bow and confess His Lordship to the glory of God. What you have shared actually strengthens my faith in God. The Bible says that the angels were commanded to worship Jesus. We are below the angels. Jesus said of all the spiritual and godly men on earth there was “never one as great as John the Baptist” who paved the way for The Son of Man and God. He claims that he wasn’t worthy to even touch His sandals. I would never want to be in the shoes of anyone who denies that Jesus is the Son of the Living Almighty God.

[Muslim Knight]

If Jesus died and rose again, why do we need to worship Jesus instead of God, who gave him life in the first place and subsequently after?

If Jesus = God, then Jesus as well as God died, then who gave life to the dead Jesus/God? It is fitting that we should only worship the One Who gives life, since He is the more powerful, more Merciful, who deserves all worship and praise.

If Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb, what is sacrificed if his life is returned back to him? Sacrifice are meant to be given up forever, unless the person/entity to whom the sacrifice was meant for, returns it to the person who made the sacrifice.

If Jesus = God, and God made the sacrifice, He is making sacrifice meant for Himself? Can someone sacrifice for himself? Can I sacrifice a lamb, only meant for myself, whose meat is only fit for my own consumption? Other than being selfish, what else could the word be? Faith?

Then, if so, what is Faith?

[MustafaMc]

Are you the only Muslim that believes this or is this the common belief?

I wrote as I understand the Islamic faith held by Muslims.

But the deity part makes Him The Son of the Father in heaven (God).

Being born without a father, I admit that I don't understand how Jesus (pbuh) came to be, but I don't see how that makes him equal to God. I also don't understand how God created Adam, but I believe that He did. I have some understanding of natural conception, development in the womb and birth, but beyond that my intellect is at a loss.

...but I would bow before Jesus; in fact, The Bible states that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

See Romans 14:11, Philemon 2:11 Can you provide a passage not written by Paul?

I would never want to be in the shoes of anyone who denies that Jesus is the Son of the Living Almighty God.

Likewise, I would not want to be in the shoes of anyone who claims that Jesus is the "Son of God."

Quran 5:72–73 They have disbelieved who say: “Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary.” The Messiah (himself) said: “ O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Whoever ascribes partners to Allah, for him Allah has forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For the unjust there will be no helpers.” They have disbelieved who say: “Allah is the third of three,” when there is no god save One God. If they cease not what they say, a painful torment will fall upon those who disbelieve.

Quran 19:88-93 They say: “The All-Merciful has begotten a son!” Indeed you have put forth a monstrous falsehood. At which the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in ruins. That they should ascribe unto the All-Merciful a son. It does not behove (the majesty) of the All-Merciful that He should adopt a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a slave.

Seeing how I believe the Quran to be the literal Word of God, my choice is to believe that Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) were no more than the most honorable of all men - prophets and messengers of the One God.

[Woodrow]

This has been the most interesting and informative thing I have ever read on an Islamic forum. This gives me a very good picture of the Islamic Faith. Are you the only Muslim that believes this or is this the common belief? One of the most important things I heard you say is that Jesus was born of Mary without an earthly Father. I believe and I think this is common among Christians that Jesus is of course the son of Mary (the man part of Jesus). But the deity part makes Him The Son of the Father in heaven (God). I too would not bend my knee to the God of this world (Satan who wanted Jesus' worship), but I would bow before Jesus; in fact, The Bible states that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord. I believe He died rose and is coming back not as a Lamb but as the King of Glory. I believe every knee will bow. Those who love His appearing and even His enemies will bow and confess His Lordship to the glory of God. What you have shared actually strengthens my faith in God. The Bible says that the angels were commanded to worship Jesus. We are below the angels. Jesus said of all the spiritual and godly men on earth there was “never one as great as John the Baptist” who paved the way for The Son of Man and God. He claims that he wasn’t worthy to even touch His sandals. I would never want to be in the shoes of anyone who denies that Jesus is the Son of the Living Almighty God.

I know you have strong belief in the Bible. I can not deny your right to believe that.

I am unable to find anything in the NT, that I can accept as proof that the NT is the Word of God(swt). I find much in the Qur'an and the Ahadith to be proof that the Qur'an is the word of God(swt)

It only makes sense to follow the word of God(swt) over an unverifiable source. So, I can not be anything except a Muslim. As a Muslim, I choose to spend my life as a servant of God(swt) and serve God(swt) I can not be a servant of God(swt) and follow the teachings of the NT.

I find your words to be very sad and I can only find comfort in the knowledge that I know Allah(swt) is all merciful and all just. I accept the fact that your future will be in accordance to the will of Allah(swt)

The words that you find so true:

I would never want to be in the shoes of anyone who denies that Jesus is the Son of the Living Almighty God.

Carry with them a very high cost. I can not stop you from sinning and from committing the unforgivable sin of shirk. That can only come from you accepting the truth and sincerely repenting.

[FatimaAsSideqah]

:sl:

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

Notice also how Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty.

The Bible's New Testament also records Jesus saying: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

Jesus in this verse is clearly giving exclusivity to GOD Almighty when he said "alone". If Jesus was truly part of GOD Almighty and/or the trinity lie was true, then Jesus, to say the least, would not have said that.

• Matthew 26:34-35, 55-57, 69-75
• 34 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this night, before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.
• 35 Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples.
• .......
• 55 In that same hour said Jesus to the multitudes, Are ye come out as against a thief with swords and staves for to take me? I sat daily with you teaching in the temple, and ye laid no hold on me.
• 56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.
• 57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.
• 69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.
• 70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.
• 71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
• 72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.
• 73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.
• 74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
• 75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Now as we clearly see, Peter did witness the so-called crucifixion event. He was present there. The only thing that saved him from death is his denial that he knew Jesus. Otherwise, he would've got crucified that night.

:w:

[Umar001]

Howdy!

Can you please be more specific? I'd like to make sure I understand you question correctly.

If you read between the gospels you see the way Jesus is spoke about change, this is one example of it, its consitance rules out mistakes.

[don532]

If you read between the gospels you see the way Jesus is spoke about change, this is one example of it, its consitance rules out mistakes.

Yes it does change. But don't we see accounts of things in the Qur'an differ also? For example, Moses and the sorcerers.

They said: "O Moses! Whether wilt thou That thou throw (first) Or that we be the first to throw?" He said, "Nay, throw ye First!" Then behold Their ropes and their rods- So it seemed to him on account of their magic- Began to be in lively motion! So Moses conceived In his mind A (sort of ) fear. We said: "Fear not! For thou hast indeed The upper hand: Throw that which is In thy right hand: Quickly will it swallow up That which they have faked What they have faked Is but a magician's trick: And the magician thrives not (No matter) where he goes. So the magicians were Thrown down in prostration: They said, "We believe In the Lord of Aaron and Moses." (Pharaoh) said: "Believe ye In Him before I give You permission? Surely This must be your leader, Who has taught you magic! Be sure I will cut off Your hands and feet On opposite sides, and I Will have you crucified On trunks of palm-trees: So shall ye know for certain, Which of us can give The more severe and the more Lasting punishment." They said, "Never shall we Regard thee as more than The Clear Signs that have Come to us, or than Him who created us! So decree whatever thou Desirest to decree: for thou Canst only decree (touching) The life of this world. For us, we have believed In our Lord: may He Forgive us our faults, And the magic to which Thou didst compel us: For God is Best And Most Abiding." [S. 20:65-73]

So when the sorcerers arrived, They said to Pharaoh: "Of course- shall we have a suitable reward if we win?" He said: "Yea, (and more),- For ye shall in that case Be (raised in posts) Nearest (to my person)." Moses said to them, "Throw ye- which ye are about to throw!" So They threw their ropes And their rods, and said: "By the might of Pharaoh It is we who will Certainly win!" Then Moses threw his rod, When, behold, it straightway swallows up all The falsehoods which they fake! Then did the Sorcerers fall down, prostration in adoration, Saying: "We believe in the Lord of the Worlds, The Lord of Moses and Aaron." Said Pharaoh: "Believe ye In Him before I give You permission? Surely he is your leader who has Taught you sorcery! But soon shall ye know!"

"Be sure I will cut off Your hands and your feet On opposite sides, and I Will cause you all To die On the cross!" They said: "No matter! For us, we shall but return to our Lord! Only, our desire is That our Lord will forgive us our faults, That We may become Foremost among the Believers!" [S. 26:41-52 (Cf. 7:111-126)]

[Umar001]

Yes it does change. But don't we see accounts of things in the Qur'an differ also? For example, Moses and the sorcerers.

Break down to me how the two Qu'ranic passages change the status of Moses?

What I was saying is that as we know the Bible is a compilation of Books, the 4 Gospels are all representations of Jesus through the author's writing, but what we see is that in the Gospel which is accepted as the earliest Jesus is potrayed in a manner and the later Gospels potray Jesus in a different stance to this, the incident of 'Who do you say I am' is something which testifies to this, because this is one of the times in which consistant change is made in the writings which in turn potray Jesus differently.

[don532]

Break down to me how the two Qu'ranic passages change the status of Moses?

I don't believe they do. I think the message is the same. That is the point. The stories are not 100% exact, but the message is the same. Another example is the story of Moses and the burning bush. It is told three times in the Qur'an, each time differently. (20:9-24, 27:7-14 and 28:29-33)

Is what you really mean to say consistency in the message rules out mistakes, rather than consistency in the wording?

[Umar001]

I don't believe they do. I think the message is the same. That is the point. The stories are not 100% exact, but the message is the same. Another example is the story of Moses and the burning bush. It is told three times in the Qur'an, each time differently. (20:9-24, 27:7-14 and 28:29-33)

Is what you really mean to say consistency in the message rules out mistakes, rather than consistency in the wording?

First, consistancy between the Gospels doesn't account for much since it is possible that 2 of the three copied the earlier piece.

Second, what I am explaining is that within the same stories we see a change in the way people speak or act towards JEsus and in a way that Jesus speaks or acts, these changes are consistant, to me this shows an intent by the author to potray Jesus in a different light.

The Qu'ranic comparison is not of any use here because the Qu'ran is one book, thus the whole concept of different potrayals of characters has no use, if the author wanted to potray a character one way he would, but the Bible is a mixture of books with different authors, thus when there are differences from these differences we can have an insight into the author's mind behind his or her writing.

[don532]

Second, what I am explaining is that within the same stories we see a change in the way people speak or act towards JEsus and in a way that Jesus speaks or acts, these changes are consistant, to me this shows an intent by the author to potray Jesus in a different light.

You have piqued my curiosity. Can you give me a couple of examples of this? Thank you and peace.

[Umar001]

This is something I have been writing up to ask my church about, since the priest has spend time at uni studying theology, I have yet to complete the questions but this is part of it.

As I said, it is essential that the background behind the compilation of the Gospels as individual accounts.

Some of the stories which have changed throughout the Gospels:

Jesus calms the storm

The author in the Gospel according to Mark says that the disciples referred to Jesus, peace be upon him, as “Teacher” (ch.4 vs.38). The author of Luke places the word “Master” (ch.8 vs.24) on the lips of the disciples, while the author of Matthew elevates the word of the disciples to “Lord” (ch.8 vs.25)

Body with an evil spirit

The author of Mark states that a man came and referred Jesus as “Teacher” (ch.9 vs.17) this is again stated by Luke (ch.9 vs.38). Yet we see that the author of Matthew states that the man came and referred to Jesus as “Lord” (ch.17 vs.15)

The Fig Tree

The author of Mark narrates the story of Jesus having cursed the tree (ch.11 vs.14) and then the next day the tree was seen to have withered (ch.11 vs.20-21) Yet we see Jesus’ power amplified by the author of Matthew where he writes that Jesus cursed the tree (ch.21 vs.19) and instead of having a delay in the effect, like we see stated in the Gospel according to Mark, the curse’s effect happens “immediately” (ch.21 vs.19-20)

Confession of Peter

The author of Mark records Peter’s answer to Jesus’ question “Who do you say I am?” (ch.8 vs.29) as being “You are the Christ!” (ch.8 vs.29) in the Gospel of Luke the answer given by peter slightly differs, he says “The Christ of God” (ch.9 vs.20). But yet again the author of the Gospel of Matthew makes a change in the answer give, a change which drastically elevates Jesus’ status, Peter answers, “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God” 9ch.16 vs.16)

The Transfiguration

In the Gospel of Mark the author writes that Peter refers to Jesus as “Rabbi” (ch.9 vs.55). Luke records this incident, according to the author Peter calls Jesus “Master” (ch.9 vs.33). The author of the Gospel of Matthew remains faithful to his character and writes that Peter refers to Jesus as “Lord” (ch.17 vs.4)

The Prayer

In all the synoptic Gospels Jesus’ prayer to ‘let the cup pass’ is included. In Mark’s Gospel Jesus tells his disciples “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death” (ch.14 vs.34), he, Jesus, is described as “deeply distressed and troubled” (ch.14 vs.33).The author of Matthew records something similar “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death” (ch.26 vs.38) he, Jesus, is described as “sorrowful and troubled” (ch.26 vs.37) All of them, Mark, Matthew and Luke record the prayer as something along the lines of “My father if possible take this cup from me; yet not my will but your will be done” Mark 14:36, Matthew 26:39 and Luke 22:42. Yet in the Gospel of John we do not witness these words, words which show an apparent reluctant side of Jesus to die. The prayer is different (ch.17).

What does the above show, what we see is that the author of Matthew's Gospel consistantly, not once by accident, makes Jesus' disciples refer to him in a higher status, one can do a research if they are serious in the amount of times 'My Father' is said by Jesus in each of the Gospels, and other such phrases and I will expect the number the be higher in Matthew. Other incidents also show a touch of hand by the Authors.

To me this is one small piece, which of itself could cause doubt over the authenticity of Matthew at least, but never the less this is a small piece in a puzzle which shows reasons to wonder about the reliability of the Authors.

[Redeemed]

I know you have strong belief in the Bible. I can not deny your right to believe that.

I am unable to find anything in the NT, that I can accept as proof that the NT is the Word of God(swt). I find much in the Qur'an and the Ahadith to be proof that the Qur'an is the word of God(swt)

It only makes sense to follow the word of God(swt) over an unverifiable source. So, I can not be anything except a Muslim. As a Muslim, I choose to spend my life as a servant of God(swt) and serve God(swt) I can not be a servant of God(swt) and follow the teachings of the NT.

I find your words to be very sad and I can only find comfort in the knowledge that I know Allah(swt) is all merciful and all just. I accept the fact that your future will be in accordance to the will of Allah(swt)

The words that you find so true:

Carry with them a very high cost. I can not stop you from sinning and from committing the unforgivable sin of shirk. That can only come from you accepting the truth and sincerely repenting.

You are not trying to say that I am committing the sin of shirk because of accepting truth and repenting, are you? You must mean for believing that Jesus is the Son of God. We can't control what we believe. I have come to that conclusion. I am going to reap from the seed of what I believe. I was destined to. By the way, I appreciate that your heart is sad over me. It shows you really care, but I am a prisoner to what I believe, and I also feel the same sadness over not only you but all on this forum. This mutual sadness is something we share. That is one of the things in common. Did you know that there was an American claiming to be a Christian who hated Muslims? He thinks they are all warmongers. I told him that he needs to repent of his sinful attitude. He wrote back on another forum and told me that I could join in with you guys. I said, that anyone who says they love God and hates their brother or even their enemies is a lair. He said, he is in the Marines (green Bret), and I make him sick. Putting all that aside, I understand that you don't accept the NT especially Paul's writings. How about the Old Testament, do you accept that? Is there anything in there that you don't accept? Do you for instance accept the writings of Daniel and or Isaiah?

[MustafaMc]

The words that you find so true:

....

Carry with them a very high cost. I can not stop you from sinning and from committing the unforgivable sin of shirk. That can only come from you accepting the truth and sincerely repenting.

It is amazing that Christians base their salvation on believing that Jesus is the Son of God - the very thing that Islam teaches is the unforgivable sin of shirk if one dies in that state of believing. Likewise we base our hope of salvation on the declaration that there is only One God with the implication that He has no partners, no equals, no parents and no offspring. Though both are sincere in their belief, they are diametrically opposed and both can't be right.

However, it is for Allah to punish or to forgive.

Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."

[Redeemed]

It is amazing that Christians base their salvation on believing that Jesus is the Son of God - the very thing that Islam teaches is the unforgivable sin of shirk if one dies in that state of believing. Likewise we base our hope of salvation on the declaration that there is only One God with the implication that He has no partners, no equals, no parents and no offspring. Though both are sincere in their belief, they are diametrically opposed and both can't be right.

However, it is for Allah to punish or to forgive.

Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."

That sounds like an awful strong penalty to be one that has committed an unforgivable sin. Why is that unforgivable when we cannot choose what we believe? Can you renounce Islam and choose to believe that Jesus is the Son of God? You cannot do it anymore than I can. Why would you not understand that, and if you can, does not God understand even more? I feel that I can put up I good argument before God concerning the deity of Jesus. I can and yeah a will come before even God with boldness concerning this. I know God is not deaf and He can hear. I think it would be Jesus' call to manifest to me what my relationship should be to him. If it is not the way it should be now, let Him create a clean heart and right spirit in me, because He is just, and He knows that I could be a Muslim in a heart beat if I believed it were truth, but I don't! BUT, I BELIEVE THAT GOD IS TRUTH!!!!!

[MustafaMc]

Can you renounce Islam and choose to believe that Jesus is the Son of God? You cannot do it anymore than I can. Why would you not understand that, and if you can, does not God understand even more?

You speak truthfully. I am a Muslim convert from Christianity, but I did not will for it to happen. I cannot will to believe as the atheist does or to return to believing again as a Christian. Neither can I believe that the world is flat nor that the sun revolves around the earth. Guidance comes from Allah to whom He wills and leaves to stray those whom He wills.

Quran 6:125-126 Whomever Allah wills to guide, He opens his chest to Islam and whomever He intends to confound, He makes his chest narrow and squeezes so tight that, at the very idea of Islam, he feel as if his soul is going to climb up towards the sky. That is how Allah places a blight on those who do not believe, whereas in fact this way (Al-Islam) is the Right Way of your Rabb and We have spelled out Our revelations very clearly for the people who use their common sense.

I believe that most of the correspondence here is not for egotistical reasons of trying to prove one is right, but rather that each side truly cares for the other and is trying to show the other what he believes is the truth. I am sure that each feels a responsibility to share "the Truth" and to witness to unbelievers. May Allah guide us all to the Truth.

[Redeemed]

You speak truthfully. I am a Muslim convert from Christianity, but I did not will for it to happen. I cannot will to believe as the atheist does or to return to believing again as a Christian. Neither can I believe that the world is flat nor that the sun revolves around the earth. Guidance comes from Allah to whom He wills and leaves to stray those whom He wills.

Quran 6:125-126 Whomever Allah wills to guide, He opens his chest to Islam and whomever He intends to confound, He makes his chest narrow and squeezes so tight that, at the very idea of Islam, he feel as if his soul is going to climb up towards the sky. That is how Allah places a blight on those who do not believe, whereas in fact this way (Al-Islam) is the Right Way of your Rabb and We have spelled out Our revelations very clearly for the people who use their common sense.

I believe that most of the correspondence here is not for egotistical reasons of trying to prove one is right, but rather that each side truly cares for the other and is trying to show the other what he believes is the truth. I am sure that each feels a responsibility to share "the Truth" and to witness to unbelievers. May Allah guide us all to the Truth.

Yes, may our Creator leads us to truth, deliever us from evil and lead us not into tenptation especially those sins that are most destable to the Lord. Tell me about your life as a Christian; for instance, what kind of Christian did you consider yourself to be? I cannot identify with this change of yours. It is a hard saying to me. How is this possible? What was going on inside of you?????

[MustafaMc]

Tell me about your life as a Christian; for instance, what kind of Christian did you consider yourself to be? I cannot identify with this change of yours. It is a hard saying to me. How is this possible? What was going on inside of you?????

I sense a note of incredulity in your statement. However, in retrospect for me it was like leaving darkness and walking into the light.

I grew up as a Baptist in rural Mississippi. Upon entering college I became a member of the Church of Christ as a result of "dorm evangelism". I regularly attended church services, read my Bible and occasionally fasted. I consider that I was a sincere Christian. During my senior year, I got a room mate from Iran. He and I discussed religion, but relatively infrequently and in no great detail. Over Christmas break, I took his Quran home and read all of the verses about Jesus and Mary. I disbelieved at first, but reached a point where the "light bulb" of inspiration clicked on and I saw that the Quranic teachings made more sense to me. That was in December 1981. I have believed since then, but I only regularly practiced Islam since June 2001. I guess once someone hits 40 or so, he realizes that he is going to die and must stand before God on Judgement Day. I knew that I must live how I believed regardless of what others thought or the consequences in this life.

[Redeemed]

I sense a note of incredulity in your statement. However, in retrospect for me it was like leaving darkness and walking into the light.

I grew up as a Baptist in rural Mississippi. Upon entering college I became a member of the Church of Christ as a result of "dorm evangelism". I regularly attended church services, read my Bible and occasionally fasted. I consider that I was a sincere Christian. During my senior year, I got a room mate from Iran. He and I discussed religion, but relatively infrequently and in no great detail. Over Christmas break, I took his Quran home and read all of the verses about Jesus and Mary. I disbelieved at first, but reached a point where the "light bulb" of inspiration clicked on and I saw that the Quranic teachings made more sense to me. That was in December 1981. I have believed since then, but I only regularly practiced Islam since June 2001. I guess once someone hits 40 or so, he realizes that he is going to die and must stand before God on Judgement Day. I knew that I must live how I believed regardless of what others thought or the consequences in this life.

I think I understand. You grew up as a Baptist and went through the motions of a Christian, but you didn't know Jesus. You knew about Him, but you didn't know Him as your personal Lord and Savior. The difference between you and me is that I know Jesus. I actually have a relationship with Him. He is in me and is the Lord of my life. I know I am fallible, but I am confident that what I have with the Lord is not religion (like what you had); it's a relationship I have. You could have had it and can still have it, but you have made your choice. Once one has a relationship with Him, there is no turning back. I believe what the Bible says: If we refuse the love of the truth, God sends us a strong delusion that we might believe a lie.
Read Isaiah 53 in the Old Testament. It tells why God put Him to death (something that you now deny happened) as a sacrifice for our sins and transgressions. It starts off by saying, "Who has believed our report and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed.” It is written: “How can we ever hope to escape the judgment of God if we neglect so get a salvation?” I would never trust my eternal soul to my own works. I trust in what He did. The reasons I have eternal life is not because of what I did; otherwise, I could boast. It is what He did. God looks at me because Jesus became sin for me and all His righteous came on me. When I look in the mirror, I see the righteous of Christ and so does God. This is what I make my boast in. That is why I know who I am in Christ, and I know with total security where I am going. I am not at the mercy of a god whose mood can suddenly change, and I go to hell. Jesus' love for me is so great that he would rather go to hell with me than go to heaven without me. This is my experience as a follower of Christ. It is not and an unforgivable sin to believe that Jesus is the Son of God; it is just the opposite to a Christian it is how we get forgiveness of ours sins. We cannot redeem ourselves; if we could, God would not get the glory. In my life, God is going to be glorified.

[MustafaMc]

I think I understand. You grew up as a Baptist and went through the motions of a Christian, but you didn't know Jesus. You knew about Him, but you didn't know Him as your personal Lord and Savior. The difference between you and me is that I know Jesus.

How would you know what was in my heart over 26 years ago?

Quran 4:44-45 Have you not considered the case of those to whom a portion of the Book was given? They purchased error for themselves and wish to see you lose the Right Way. Allah knows your enemies very well. Sufficient is Allah to protect you, and Sufficient is Allah to help you.

Quran 109:1-6 Say: O unbelievers! I worship not that you worship, nor will you worship that which I worship. I shall never worship those gods whom you worship, nor it appears will you ever worship Allah, whom I worship. To you be your religion, and to me mine.

Peace!

[Redeemed]

How would you know what was in my heart over 26 years ago?

Quran 4:44-45 Have you not considered the case of those to whom a portion of the Book was given? They purchased error for themselves and wish to see you lose the Right Way. Allah knows your enemies very well. Sufficient is Allah to protect you, and Sufficient is Allah to help you.

Quran 109:1-6 Say: O unbelievers! I worship not that you worship, nor will you worship that which I worship. I shall never worship those gods whom you worship, nor it appears will you ever worship Allah, whom I worship. To you be your religion, and to me mine.

Peace!

I am looking to get a Qur'an myself. I notice that you quote the Qur'an, because that is the only Islam Scriptures I get to read even though I see it the way you see the NT Bible. I am still interested. I don't know you heart, but God does. I said, I think I understand, and I believe that God was showing about you, but I could be mistaken. Jesus said, "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them." I know that you don't believe what witnesses heard Jesus say about Himself and recorded. For instance, that He is the only way to the Father. Do you know what Jesus meant by that?

Peace

[Redeemed]

How would you know what was in my heart over 26 years ago?

Quran 4:44-45 Have you not considered the case of those to whom a portion of the Book was given? They purchased error for themselves and wish to see you lose the Right Way. Allah knows your enemies very well. Sufficient is Allah to protect you, and Sufficient is Allah to help you.

Quran 109:1-6 Say: O unbelievers! I worship not that you worship, nor will you worship that which I worship. I shall never worship those gods whom you worship, nor it appears will you ever worship Allah, whom I worship. To you be your religion, and to me mine.

Peace!

I am not your enemy, and I don't believe you are mine. But we are engage in spiritual warfare for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places. The devil is the enemy who looks only to kill, steal and destroy.
Peace

[Woodrow]

I am not your enemy, and I don't believe you are mine. But we are engage in spiritual warfare for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places. The devil is the enemy who looks only to kill, steal and destroy.
Peace

Greetings AJ,

Don't fret. you are not seen as an enemy. Most of us really do understand that you are speaking out of love for humanity and not out of personal ego.

I believe the majority of us agree with your statement:

The devil is the enemy who looks only to kill, steal and destroy.

i know you are very much aware that as Muslims we pray a minimum of 5 times a day. However, those are simply the required prayers. As a Muslim it is hard to think of what is not a prayer. Our prayers do differ a bit from the nature of what most organized religions view as prayer. we view each and every action, word and thought as a prayer. we begin all things with the words: Bismillallahi ir Rahman ir Raheem.(In the Name of Allah(swt), the Benevolent, the All Merciful) This is not a ritual thing it is a heart felt reminder that all things are to be for the worship of Allah. we are also very much aware of the presence of Shaytan. He is ever ready to bring us distraction and to cloud our thoughts. For that reason several times a day minimum and every time we feel the slightest presence of Shaytan we will pray to Allah(swt) to protect us from Shaytan. With the words AUDHU BILLAHI MIN ASH SHAYTAN AR RAJIM- meaning 'I seek protection in Allah from the accursed satan.'

As Muslims we are servants of Allah(swt) and of Him alone. No matter how beautiful or how tempting it may be to serve another. We can not serve another no matter who that person may be. Allah(swt) alone is to be served, not any of his creations nor of any presented as his equal. Allah(swt) is the only path to Allah(swt) we are very much aware that some of the alleged paths to Allah(swt) are full of much beauty and offer much hope and love. But, we see those paths as misdirecting us from our need to serve Allah(swt)

[yigiter187]

As Muslims we are servants of Allah(swt) and of Him alone. No matter how beautiful or how tempting it may be to serve another. We can not serve another no matter who that person may be. Allah(swt) alone is to be served, not any of his creations nor of any presented as his equal. Allah(swt) is the only path to Allah(swt) we are very much aware that some of the alleged paths to Allah(swt) are full of much beauty and offer much hope and love. But, we see those paths as misdirecting us from our need to serve Allah(swt)

yes ı can find nothing to add these words..

WE LOVE CREATURES BECAUSE ALLAH CREATED THEM....NO MATTER WHAT KİND OF CREATURE İT İS..MEN,ANİMAL OR PLANT.. ANYTHİN WE SEE OR NOT SEE

[MustafaMc]

I don't know you heart, but God does. I said, I think I understand, and I believe that God was showing about you, but I could be mistaken.

Yes, God alone knows what is in my heart and my intentions.

Jesus said, "Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them."

Matthew 7:15-16 Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves. By their fruits ye shall know them. Do [men] gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Personally, I understand this as a warning against false prophets that were to come after Jesus to mislead people. You would believe this to be a warning against Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), but I interpret it to be a warning against Saul (Paul) who was instrumental in establishing Christianity as we know it today. Read Galatians with an open mind that it was a letter from a man to a church that was deviating from what he had taught them.

I know that you don't believe what witnesses heard Jesus say about Himself and recorded. For instance, that He is the only way to the Father. Do you know what Jesus meant by that?

Peace

There are some things in the NT that I don't believe Jesus (pbuh) actually said. However, I do not reject the ones that agree with the message of the Quran.

[MustafaMc]

I am not your enemy, and I don't believe you are mine. But we are engage in spiritual warfare for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and spiritual wickedness in high places. The devil is the enemy who looks only to kill, steal and destroy.
Peace

I don't see you as an enemy either. I went too far down when I copied that passage in the Quran about the People of the Book. Muslims have the hadith as another source for our religion, but I rely on the Quran as the first, primary source.

Yes, I too see Satan as public enemy #1. Quran 15:39-40 Iblees (Satan) said: "Rabb! Since You let me go astray, I will make evil fair-seeming to them on earth and I will seduce them all except those of them who are Your sincere devotees." I think you would agree that Satan has misled either the Christians or the Muslims and that the one that is misled is no less sincere than the one who is on the "Straight Path".

[Woodrow]

I just realize that you probably have heard very little of the Ahadith. the Ahadith (plural for Hadith) are writings from witnesses to accounts in the Prophet's(PBUH) Life.

These have a closer correlation to what you call the Gospels than the Qur'an has.

They are the written accounts of the Prophet's disciples Much like the books of the Gospel are written accounts of the disciples of Isa(as).

We do not consider the Ahadith to be inspired or the word of Allah(swt) They are the true eye witness accounts.

The Qur'an is the word of Allah(swt) the Ahadith are eye witness accounts of how Muhammad(swt) taught it, obeyed it, and worshiped Allah(swt). The Qur'an tells us the truth, the Ahadith is our guide on how to live it.

The Injil would have been the message given to Isa(as) and was to be spread. But, those who came after Isa(as) failed to spread the Injil. The Apostles were the witnesses as to what Isa(as) did and said. But as apostles and not prophets they are not infallible and their word is not the inspired word of Allah(swt) As a result it is subject to error, change and corruption. the truth of it can only be validated if the Injil still existed to compare with the witnesses.

[Keltoi]

Posts from "answering Christianity" are allowed, but posts from "answering Islam" are not?

[جوري]

sure I am game with that... considering islamic responses are readily deleted from Christian websites and blogs... I think we are pretty darn allowing -- Muslims are always respectful to Jesus PBUH... wish I can say Muslims are granted that same courtesy on Christian forums !

peace!

[Keltoi]

sure I am game with that... considering islamic responses are readily deleted from Christian websites and blogs... I think we are pretty darn allowing -- Muslims are always respectful to Jesus PBUH... wish I can say Muslims are granted that same courtesy on Christian forums !

peace!

I've never been to a Christian forum, so I don't have a comment on that. I understand the reasoning behind barring anything from "answering Islam"...perhaps it is naive, but I still hope we can get away from cutting and pasting things from "anti" anything sites. It doesn't elevate the conversation in any way.

[Muezzin]

Is there a site called 'answeringthephone'?

If there is, I wouldn't try posting stuff from there on a Nokia forum, boy howdy.

[Keltoi]

Is there a site called 'answeringthephone'?

If there is, I wouldn't try posting stuff from there on a Nokia forum, boy howdy.

lol...yeah. Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning.

[Abdul Fattah]

Posts from "answering Christianity" are allowed, but posts from "answering Islam" are not?

Apart from what many people have already pointed out, that this is an islamic forum. There is also a big difference between answering christianity and answering Islam.

1. A.I. is offensive (attacks a religion)
while A.C. is defensive (defend those attacks).
2. A.C. is open (attempts to establish constructive conversation by answering the questions raised)
whereas A.I completely ignores A.C. (refuses to take down articles even though they have been sent logical and obvious refutations and been shown the fallacy of their attacks)

[جوري]

I've never been to a Christian forum, so I don't have a comment on that. I understand the reasoning behind barring anything from "answering Islam"...perhaps it is naive, but I still hope we can get away from cutting and pasting things from "anti" anything sites. It doesn't elevate the conversation in any way.

I have always been an advocate of distilling your understanding of an article or a book to communicate what you are trying to say in simple language ... some feel, cut and paste, can articulate better or is put in a more refined tongue, and it is their right so long as they attach the site from which they have copied and the reader may well decipher what he may.

... It is still my sincere hope for an honest exchange for several already sunk to the bottom threads, evolution/ creation to name a few.. otherwise what is the point? I can always walk to borders and pick the book of my choice to reflect or oppose my views...

However, that can be best achieved in subjects of science or others of the nature where some logic has to be applied... When it comes to religion, some are simply better read and have a more accurate historical account of the events than others, therefore-- I don't see the harm!

peace!

[Keltoi]

Apart from what many people have already pointed out, that this is an islamic forum. There is also a big difference between answering christianity and answering Islam.

1. A.I. is offensive (attacks a religion)
while A.C. is defensive (defend those attacks).
2. A.C. is open (attempts to establish constructive conversation by answering the questions raised)
whereas A.I completely ignores A.C. (refuses to take down articles even though they have been sent logical and obvious refutations and been shown the fallacy of their attacks)

Really? Perhaps you should check out the link in question and tell me how "constructive" and "defensive".

[Abdul Fattah]

Really? Perhaps you should check out the link in question and tell me how "constructive" and "defensive".

Ok, I stand corrected I was unaware that there were articles like that on that site to, the articles I had mostly seen on answering christianity were the ones refuting the articles of answering Islam. Which was the main reason of making this site in the first place if I understand correctly. Now it seems they have indeed sinked to the same level.

[Umar001]

Just for the record I have not deleted the post because of any other posts on here, I rather wanted to delete it, for several reasons:

1. In many places it had nothing to do with the topic.

2. When a non Muslim comes here and posts articles with 20 points Muslims point out that for clarity we should tackle one by one, and Muslims are right in saying so, for if one is sincere one by one will be ok, that's another reason I deleted it since it was 20 or so points most having nothing with the topic

3. Most of the points actually are indicative of generalisation, for example, not praying like Jesus, I know some Christians who do pray like Jesus, furthermore, there are ways to explain away those points brought up, which I as a Muslim could even do.

Anyhow yall get the picture, so back on topic please.

Eesa

[Umar001]

You have raised some interesting points. The Bible and the story of Jesus goes back further than Muhammad or 1400 years ago, but the Bible has passed through some language translations, but yes, we do have access to the original text in Hebrew and Greek.

No you don't, there are copies of copies in the Greek text but the Original Text does not exist, similarly there is not a whole Hebrew Text until very late.

The whole art of textual critisism would not exist if there was the Original Text with us.

There are definitely transnational errors in the Bible and some problems where there appears to be even contradictions, but never concerning the deity of Christ.

Again another mistake, the most famous addition being that in 1 John 5:7 Which not only afffected the Diety of Chirst but rather the Trinity as a whole. There are other places where changes are made.

Things might be worded differently because of the different witnesses, and not everyone sees the same things in the same way.

Another smoke screen, this is one of the possabilities, another being that the authors driven by some sort of preconcieved ideas or maybe just by the information they had recieved wrote different. If the differences between the Gospels had no patterns your position that they were just different view points would be a position which would be possible, but the fact that the changes are the same throughout this is something which rules out your theory.

The message is clear in the Bible however.

It is only clear if one approaches the Bible with an idea already in mind!!

When Jesus asked who do you say I am, the disciple said you are the Son of the living God.

Well not in Mark's Gospel, so if we only had Mark's Gospel, which would be the case since in early times the Gospels were seperate, then we would only have that Jesus is the Messiah, if we had Luke's Gospel we would have that Jesus is the Messiah of God, which both Muslims agree with, but if we have Matthew, then it says Jesus is the Son of the Living God, which Muslims disagree with.

And for the record Mark is the earliest.

If Jesus asks you who do you say I am, what would you say?

If I was the Author of Mark I'd tell you Jesus is the Messiah, if I was the author of Luke I'd tell you Jesus is the Messiah of God, and if I was, and Alhamdulillah I am, Eesa Abdullah I would tell you Eesa is Abdullah.

References are available upon request: Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life" He said, "No one comes unto the Father (Allah, God Almighty, The Lord) but by Me"

I believe the same about Muhammad peace be upon him. In no way does the above mean Jesus being anything.

Mary worshipped him on His feet. He didn't try to stop her in the way angels or any men of God would for people doing that.

Do you know the meaning of the word used for worship? If I were to show you another person in the Bible who was worshipped, and he was a good man and didn't rebuke the people would you worship him?

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I AM"

Another man said I AM too, this make him God? Furthermore, he, jesus is not quoted as saying I am what I am, furthermore, the Hebrew of Moses doesnt always translate as I Am what I AM.

Abit wierd also, only John recorded that, a claim of being God and only John spoke of it? And John tends to be the one who is different and speaks of Jesus in a different way, what a coincidence.

When Thomas put his hand in the wounds that put Jesus to death, he said of Jesus "My Lord and my God."

You ever had anyone who you thought was dead reappear? I'd scream SubhnaAllah wa Alhamdulillah, or Ya Rabbi Ya Allah, or if I saw the person I prolly say 'Oh John, Oh My God' and so forth, actually there was a police show in which they undercover arrested this lady who put a hit out on her husband, a policeman played hitman and showed her fake pics of her husband dead, anyhow, the police then interviewed her, and let her husband walk in the room, the husband who she thought she had seen dead, she freaked out saying Oh Lord and other such phrases while hugging the man, is he her God?

Jesus didn't explicitly say He was God because He wanted you to realize it for yourself.

Doesn't sound like the Character of God, in the Old Testament God told everyone who he was.

Philip said show us the Father and we'll be happy. Jesus said I have been with you. Don't you know me.

Exactly, why do we need to see God if we see His Miracles, especially Prophets and Messengers.

Jesus said I am the Alpha and Omega beginning and the end.

Please bring proof. From Revelation I guess.

God said the same about Himself in Isaiah. He said there is no God besides me and I share not my glory with another. Jesus claims these titles unto Himself.

No he didnt claim nothing for himself, I can of my own self do nothing. Jesus was given everything he had.

Jesus is named Immanuel that means GOD with us.

This doesn't add nothing, it's a name, I'm called Eesa, but I'm not Eesa Ibn Maryam. For my benefit show me where Jesus is named Immanuel.

It is written do not be like the Ox that needs a bit and bridle to see what truth is. He said, I am in the Father and the Father is in me. He is the exact representation of all that God is He is in the very nature God.

He according to the quote says that the disciples should be or are one with him and God, cant remember which but its in John 17.

[QUOTE=alapiana1;716783]What is the difference in essences if you put the bag in the cup or put the cup in the bag? It is equal in mass and weight even if the volume is different. Jesus was a man so the man part of Him was under the Father’s authority, but He was no less deity. Just like you have a son who is under you, but he is no less human than you.

as the Bible states He is

The Bible does not state Jesus is God.

If I am not mistaken, according to the Qur’an Mohammed is the messenger, but according to the Bible Jesus is the Message.

What makes Jesus the message, what qualities define someone being the message.

I like to compare and contrast the two. Jesus was born of a virgin that is a confirmed fact according to both the Bible and the Qur’an. Jesus according to the Qur’an is like the Bible says the Word of God. Some twist it to say He is a word just like the JW's twist their Watch tower version of the Bible to say that the word was a god.

Do you know Arabic or Greek? First, in Arabic for example you'd say Haadha Masjidun, This Masjid, but it would be This is a Masjid, because the meaning is there, in order to accomodate this meaning into the english language a is put. With Greek also, the actual Greek word in John1:1 is different when it speaks of The Word God and The God!

Jesus was born of a virgin not Mohammed. Jesus rose from the dead (which you don’t believe) not Mohammed.

If God allowes a blind person to see, but you've always been able to see does this mean the Blind person is better than you? Or if two blind people are there and one is cured does this mean that he is better? Of course not! People who are athiest might be cured of a small illness but a Christian in another country might dies, does this mean that Athiest is better?

[Redeemed]

I believe the same about Muhammad peace be upon him. In no way does the above mean Jesus being anything.
I know



Do you know the meaning of the word used for worship? If I were to show you another person in the Bible who was worshipped, and he was a good man and didn't rebuke the people would you worship him?
No



Another man said I AM too, this make him God? Furthermore, he, jesus is not quoted as saying I am what I am, furthermore, the Hebrew of Moses doesnt always translate as I Am what I AM.
OK

Abit wierd also, only John recorded that, a claim of being God and only John spoke of it? And John tends to be the one who is different and speaks of Jesus in a different way, what a coincidence.
OK, I wouldn't say it that way.



You ever had anyone who you thought was dead reappear? I'd scream SubhnaAllah wa Alhamdulillah, or Ya Rabbi Ya Allah, or if I saw the person I prolly say 'Oh John, Oh My God' and so forth, actually there was a police show in which they undercover arrested this lady who put a hit out on her husband, a policeman played hitman and showed her fake pics of her husband dead, anyhow, the police then interviewed her, and let her husband walk in the room, the husband who she thought she had seen dead, she freaked out saying Oh Lord and other such phrases while hugging the man, is he her God?
That is not what this is about.



Doesn't sound like the Character of God, in the Old Testament God told everyone who he was.
Sure it does, He wants us to have faith.


Exactly, why do we need to see God if we see His Miracles, especially Prophets and Messengers.
Who said we ned to see Him?



Please bring proof. From Revelation I guess.
Faith is the proof and evidence



No he didn’t claim nothing for himself, I can of my own self do nothing. Jesus was given everything he had.
If God wasn't in Jesus He couldn't do anything, and if weren't for Jesus, God could do nothing! The Father glorified the Son and the Son the Father as mentioned in Scripture and as inferred.



This doesn't add nothing, it's a name, I'm called Eesa, but I'm not Eesa Ibn Maryam. For my benefit show me where Jesus is named Immanuel.
Yes but according to the Bible, it is the name above all names.



He according to the quote says that the disciples should be or are one with him and God, cant remember which but its in John 17.

What is the difference in essences if you put the bag in the cup or put the cup in the bag? It is equal in mass and weight even if the volume is different. Jesus was a man so the man part of Him was under the Father’s authority, but He was no less deity. Just like you have a son who is under you, but he is no less human than you.



The Bible does not state Jesus is God.
To me it does.


What makes Jesus the message, what qualities define someone being the message.
What He said.

"I am the bread of life."



Do you know Arabic or Greek? First, in Arabic for example you'd say Haadha Masjidun, This Masjid, but it would be This is a Masjid, because the meaning is there, in order to accomodate this meaning into the english language a is put. With Greek also, the actual Greek word in John1:1 is different when it speaks of The Word God and The God!
Really, I didn't know that.




If God allowes a blind person to see, but you've always been able to see does this mean the Blind person is better than you? Or if two blind people are there and one is cured does this mean that he is better? Of course not! People who are athiest might be cured of a small illness but a Christian in another country might dies, does this mean that Athiest is better?

Jesus states let the blind lead the blind and let the dead bury their dead.

[Umar001]

Something happend to the post it came out abit wrong I didnt understand your responses.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

^^His replies were one line, or less rather. Anything before is what u said lol.

[Umar001]

^^His replies were one line, or less rather. Anything before is what u said lol.

I know but it dont make sense, I think the replies were jumbled, for example;

He said:

Philip said show us the Father and we'll be happy. Jesus said I have been with you. Don't you know me.

I said:

Exactly, why do we need to see God if we see His Miracles, especially Prophets and Messengers.

He said:

Who said we ned to see Him?

And so forth, maybe I wasn't clear. I don't know.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Oh, i guess u mean it went around in circles and didnt make sense right? Well if thats the case, I agree. I got confused a bit too.

[Umar001]

^ppin incase its forgotten.