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- Qatada -
04-22-2007, 12:49 PM
Jizya in Islam


By : Dr. Monqiz As-Saqqar


Ph.D in Christian Doctrines and Scriptures, Faculty of Usul al-Din, Umm al-Qura University, Saudi Arabia.

Translated by Hayam Elisawy. Edited by Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi

Preface

The Qur’anic commandment of collecting the Jizya[1] from the People of the Book is equivocal and confusing for some. The commandment is clearly stated in the following verse:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, form among the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."[1]
Some have thus erroneously viewed this Qur'anic commandment as a form of injustice, oppression and humiliation of nations and peoples who came under Islamic rule. Undoubtedly those to hold to this view have neglected the great privileges attributed to the rights of those who are imposed the jizya upon in Islam. Rather, these persons believe that Islam is similar to other ruling regimes that preceded and succeeded it. Islam is a unique regime as regards the matter at hand or any other issues. Islam is totally detached from the injustice and oppression as was the norm of how the People of Jizya used to be commonly treated, as it will become obvious in the following impartial and objective scientific research.



Jizya from the Linguistic Perspective

"Jizya" is derived from the root "Jaza" or "compensate". Arabs usually say the phrase "Jaza, yajzi" which means "compensate" or 'reward" if a person rewards another for the service rendered by the latter. "Jizya" is a derived term in the form of "ficla" from "Mujazã" which is the noun "compensation", meaning "a sum of money given in return for protection". Ibn Al-Mutaraz said: "It is derived from "’idjzã" or "substitute" or "sufficiency" because it suffices as a substitute for the "dhimmi's[2] embracement of Islam"[2]



Jizya in Pre-Islamic Times

Islam was not the first religion to pre-ordain the Jizya and Muslims were not the first nation to levy the Jizya unto the peoples subdued by them. Victorious nations throughout history have persisted in levying the Jizya on their conquered subjects. Examples of such an action are abundant in human history.
This is reflected in the New Testament when Christ(P) told Simon the following:
"What do you think Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxes – from their own sons or from others?" "From others" Peter answered. "Then the sons are exempt" Jesus said to him." (Matthew 17:24-25).
When the prophets, peace be upon them, conquered certain kingdoms with the will and victory of Allah, they levied the jizya upon the conquered peoples. They had in fact also enslaved the conquered peoples as was done by Joshua on the people of Canaan when he conquered them:
"They did not dislodge the Canaanites dwelling on Gezer; to this day the Canaanites live among the people of Ephraim but are required to pay Jizya." (Joshua 16:10).
Thus Joshua had both enslaved and levied Jizya on the people of Canaan.

Christianity did not abrogate any of the laws of Judaism. Christ(P) did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, rather, he came to fulfill them (Matthew 5:17). Christ(P) even commanded his followers to pay the Jizya to the Romans and he himself had expediently paid it. He told Simon:
"Go to the lake and throw your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours." (Matthew 17:24-27)
When asked by Jews (as per the New Testament) about his opinion as regards the payment of the Jizya, he acknowledged Caesar's right to take it
"They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You are not swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?" But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said,"You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, “Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription???? "Caesar's," they replied. Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." (Matthew 22:16-21).

Christ(P) took no offense in sitting and loving tax-collectors who collected Jizya and delivered it to the Romans (See Matthew 11/19). Christ(P) had in fact elected Matthew the tax-collector to be one of his twelve disciples (see Matthew 9:9).


The New Testament considers the payment of Jizya to the ruler as a legislative right. It is clad in holiness and is rendered as a religious matter. It says:
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He Is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him if you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor." (Romans 13:1-7).

Jizya in Islam

Islam did not halt the societal norms and human practices which precedes its advent. Rather, Islam sets a higher standard above the misgivings of others. Islam lends its own civilized features to the nations that come under its rule.by elevating the Jizya to become not merely a poll-tax paid by the conquered to the victorious but as a binding covenant made between the Muslim nation and the peoples who eventually came under Islamic rule. The jizya became a contract or an agreement between two parties, duly guarded and blessed by Allah's Commandments and ordinances represented in pledges and the respect and abidance by covenants. The contract is sealed and authenticated by the Prophet’s wrath, peace and blessings upon him, to those who violate such an agreement. This is manifested in the expression "the People of the Dhimma" (or Covenant), this dhimma which may never be violated and which must be duly fulfilled and guarded by virtue of the commandment given by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him.


Allah(T) preordained that Jizya be taken from fighters exclusively as the verse obviously states:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, form among the People of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."[3]
Al-Qurtubi said:
"Our scholars said: The Qur'an proves that Jezya is taken from fighters…This is ijma’[3] (consensus) by scholars that jizya is levied only on adult, free men who are qualified to go to war not on women or children or slaves or mad people or defeated people or senile or the elderly."[4]
‘Umar(R) wrote to his army generals: “Never levy the tax (Jizya) on women or little children and never levy the tax except on men who shave their beards" - which means adults who started to have beards and shave them.[5]


The sum of jizya was never large to the extent that the men were unable to pay. Rather, it was always available and reasonable. During the reign of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, jizya never exceeded one dinar annually and it never exceeded four dinars under the Umayyad rule.
When the Prophet(P) sent Mu’az to Yemen, he took one dinar as jizya from every adult man. Mu’az says:
"The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, sent me to Yemen, he commanded me to take a male or female calf for every thirty cows and a cow for every forty cows (this is the Zakat levied on Muslims) and one dinar from every adult man or the equivalent thereof in the form of clothes (jizya)"[6]
In the reign of ‘Umar Ibn Al-Khattãb – May Allah be pleased with him- he levied jizya on gold-sellers in the amount of four dinars and on paper-sellers in the amount of forty dirhams in addition to the wealth of Muslims and a three-day hospitability[7].


1) Warning against injustice toward the People of Dhimma

Allah(T) in His Book and the Prophet(P) in his hadith preordain benevolence and good deeds to the People of Jizya. Shari`a staunchly prohibits injustice and oppression toward them. The Holy Qur’ãn urges Muslims to be good and just with peaceful People of the Book who do not aggress Muslims:
"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loves those who are just."[8]


Benevolence and kindness are the most sublime types of dealing. Thus Allah preordains this degree of good treatment with the parents. This is clearly and patently clarified and expressed by the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him in another hadith: "Kindness is good morals and ethics."[9]


The Prophet(P) also says warning against being unjust to the People of Dhimma or impairing their rights: "The one who wrongs a covenanter or impairs his right or overworks him or forcibly takes something from him, I will be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment"[10]. He also says: "The one who kills a covenanter will never smell the scent of heaven and its scent is found at the distance of forty years."[11]


When some Muslims mistreated the People of Jizya, the stance of knowing scholars was strict. Hesham ibn Hakim ibn Hizam once passed by a group of Nabatcans in the Levant who were made to be staying in the sun. He said: What’s wrong with these people? They said: They are imprisoned because they did not pay the jizya. Hesham said: "I witness that I have heard the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him saying: "Allah tortures those who torture people in this lifetime." He said: "And their ruler at the time was ‘Umair Ibn Sa’d on Palestine, so he went to him and passed his orders so they were discharged."[12]


As for the commandment of subdue set out in the Qur’anic verse "and feel themselves subdued", it is a meaning that could never contradict the sayings of the Prophet(P) which preordain kindness, justice, prohibition of injustice and oppression. [That] is how the scholars of Islam understood it. Al-Shaf’i interpreted this phrase as preordaining that the rules and regulations of Islam apply to them or to their public. Jizya is a sign of a nation subdued and conquered due to the general properties of the conquering nation.


The successor, ‘Ikrima the servant of Ibn ‘Abbas interpreted this as the image of payment of Jizya to Muslims. He said: "They should be standing up while giving it while the takers should be sitting down???. As the giving hand has always been the upper hand, so it should be the upper, they were required to make the jizya payer feel their superiority over him and not his superiority over them. Al-Qurtubi says in his interpretation:
"So the hand of an almsgiver is made the upper hand while the hand of the jizya giver is the lower hand while the hand of the jizya taker is the upper."[13]

2) Certain forms of Dhimma Treaties and Covenants in the Islamic State

Islam gave unique guarantees to the People of Dhimma that were and will never by encountered by humanity. In return for very few dirhams to be paid by men who are able to go to war and fight, they enjoy living in security and absolute protection by Muslims in addition to the security of their churches and faith.


This was manifest in the councils given by Caliphs to their army leaders as asserted by the forms and wording of agreements duly signed by Muslims with jizya payers. We would like to draw the reader’s attention to contemplate the guarantees given by Muslims and the sum of money paid by the People of Jizya in return.


We will start by the historians’ accounts on the covenants of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, with the People of Jizya. In the onset we will set forth the account of Ibn Sa’d in his “Tabaqaat??? from the covenant of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, to Rabica


Al-Hadrami, where he says:
"The Messenger of Allah wrote to Rabica Ibn Zi Marhab Al-Hadrami, his brothers and uncles that they are entitled to their property, palm trees, slaves, wells, trees, water, waterwheels and plants in Hadhramaut, and that the fruit and nabq of each mortgaged land shall be included in the sum of mortgage due to him. All good that is in their fruit they will never be questioned for and Allah and His Messenger are free from it. The jamaca of Muslims must defend the people of zi Murhab and their land must never be violated together with their property, lives and zafer the orchard of the king, which used to flow to the people of Qays and Allah is the Protector. Executed by Mu'awiya."[14]

The phrase "The jamaca of Muslims must defend the people of zi Murhab" comprises a significant implication viz Muslims would sacrifice their lives for those who come under their protection and covenant. This is the dhimma of Allah Almighty and the dhimma of His Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, Al-Qarafi says:
"An agreement which is duly maintained by lives and property is verily a magnificent one."[15]

The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, wrote a letter of dhimma and covenant to the Christian people of Najraan which is conveyed to us by Ibn Sa'ad in his Tabaqaat:
"The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, wrote to the bishop of the sons of Al-Harith Ibn Ka’b and the bishops, clergymen, adherents and priests of Najraan, telling them that they are entitled to whatever property in their possession notwithstanding its being large or small including their synagogues, prayers, priests as well as the protection of Allah and His Messenger, no bishop may be removed from his bishopric, no priest will be denied his priesthood and no clergyman will be denied his ministry. Nothing of their rights may be breached or abolished and neither their authority nor any of their status-quo will be violated so long as they give sincere advice and put their conditions to order without being unjust or being wronged. This was executed by Al-Mughira."[16]

The companions of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, applied what they learnt from their magnificent Messenger and they abided by the principles and civilized features of Islam vis-à-vis the people of jizya. Historians gave accounts of a number of covenants granted by Muslims to the people of dhimma. For example the 'Omarian covenant given by 'Omar to the people of Aelia. It reads as follows:
"In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate and Most Gracious. This is the covenant of security granted by the servant of Allah, 'Omar the Commander of the Faithful, to the people of Aelia. He, hereby, guarantees the security of their persons and property, their churches and crosses, the little and the great and all adherents of the Christian religion. It is prohibited that their churches be inhibited or demolished or diminished as regards the church itself or its domain. Neither may their cross be impaired or any of their property in any manner.

They should not be coerced to abandon their faith and no one of them may be harmed. No Jews are permitted to live with them in Aelia. Upon the people of Aelia falls the obligation to pay the jizya, as is the case with the people of Mada'in, as well as evict from their midst the Byzantine. Whoever of these who leaves Aelia will be granted security of person and property until he reaches his destination. Whoever decides to stay in Aelia will also be granted same, and share with the people of Aelia in their rights and the jizya. The same applies to the people of Aelia as well as to any other person. Those who would like to march with the Byzantines may go and those who would like to return to their people will not be bound to pay anything until they reap their harvest.

Allah attests to the content of this treaty, and so do His Prophet, his successors and the believers.
This is witnessed by Khalid Ibn Al-Walid, 'Amr Ibn Al-'Aas, Abdul-Rahman Ibn 'Awf and Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufian. Executed in the year 15 Hijri." [17]

'Umar wrote a similar treaty to the people of Al-Lid.[18]
When Khalid Ibn Al-Walid conquered Damascus, he wrote a similar treaty to its people.
"In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate and Most Gracious. This is the covenant granted by Khalid Ibn Al-Walid to the people of Damascus if he enters it. They will be secure regarding their lives, property and churches. The fence of the city may not be demolished and no house owned by them may be dispossessed or inhibited. This is the covenant of Allah and the dhimma of His Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, the Caliphs and the believers. They are to be well-treated conditional upon their payment of jizya."[19]


'Abada Ibn Al-Samit records these civilized features of jizya in Islam when depicting the Islamic stance vis-à-vis Al-Muqawqas, the king of the Copts:

"Either to embrace Islam…if you and your companions accept this, you'll have attained the happiness of both this life and the after-life and we will not fight you and will never injure you or aggress you. However if you refuse, you have to pay jizya. Pay us the jizya and we will agree on a sum satisfactory to both of us to be collected every year so long as we and you remain. Thus we will defend you and fight your enemies or those who violate your lands, lives and property and we will undertake this duty so long as you are in our dhimma and so long as a covenant is binding on us towards you…"[20]
Again it is noticeable that the Muslim sacrifices his life to protect the people of jizya and their property "We will defend you…"



3) Muslims' Keenness on Honoring the Dhimma Agreement

The Caliphs were afraid lest the Muslims impair the rights of the People of Dhimma. Therefore they used to regularly inspect how the jizya was obtained. Al-Tabari gives an account of this in his history in the context of 'Umar's speech with a delegation from a country of dhimma, " 'Umar said to the delegation: Do Muslims mistreat you or impair your rights? They said: We never knew but honor and good treatment."[21]


When he received the collected taxes he asked about the source lest it be oppression and coercion. It was said that he, may Allah be pleased with him, "received a large amount of money, I reckon he said it is of the jizya and said: "I am afraid you might have forced people into paying?" They said: "No, by Allah, we only took it satisfactorily and with no grudge." He said: "With neither whip nor lash?" They said: "Yes." He said: "Praise be to Allah who prevented such acts from taking place at my hand and during my rule."[22]


When he was about to pass away he never missed to advise Muslims to protect and care for the people of dhimma. He said: "I hereby advise the Caliph to succeed me to be good to the people of dhimma and to honor their covenant and to fight for them and not to overwork them."[23]

Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, wrote to his tax officials saying. "If you reached them never sell them a garment either in winter time or in summer time nor sell them food to eat or an animal to work on and never lash any of them even once for a dirham and never make any of them get to his feet to ask for a dirham. Never sell any of them anything of the taxes. Allah commanded us to take from them jizya with kindness. If you disobey me, the punishment of Allah will befall you and not me and if otherwise is reported to me, you will be dismissed from office."[24]


Al-Walid Ibn Yazid evicted the Christians of Cyprus out of his fear that they might help the Romans. But Yazid Ibn Al-Walid brought them back. Isma'il Ibn 'ayash says regarding the deed of Al-Walid: "Muslims found this action horrible and Jurisprudents found it terrible. When Yazid Ibn Al-Walid succeeded his father, he reinstated them. Muslims approved of such an act and they found it just.[25]


When Al-Walid Ibn Abdel-Malek forcibly took over the Church of John from the Christians and annexed it to the masjid, Muslims viewed this as usurpation. When Omar Ibn Abdul-‘Aziz succeeded him the Christians filed a complaint to him. So he wrote to his tax-collector ordering him to return the additional parts annexed to the masjid to them.[26]





4) Muslim Jurisprudents on the Security and Acknowledgment of the Rights of the People of Dhimma.

The Islamic rule was a pioneer in protecting the rights of the people of dhimma. This is reflected in the maintenance of their rituals and churches. The shari'a law provides for the following: "The second issue: The rights due to them by us, namely to maintain their residence in our countries except the Arab Peninsula namely Hijaz and Yemen; to secure their lives and property and not to impair their churches, wine and pigs so long as they do not display the same."[27]


Al-Tahawi accounts for Muslims' consensus on the freedom of the people of dhimma to eat pork and drink wine or the like which is permitted by their religion. He says:
"They unanimously agreed that the Imam, ruler, may not prevent the people of dhimma from drinking wine, eating pork or residing in the houses which they took by consent where such people are in a non-Islamic country (in countries where they form a majority)"[28]
The Shari'a maintains the life and property of the dhimmi. It even stipulates the life penalty for the murderer of a dhimmi. A Muslim was sentenced to death during the rule of Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, for killing a dhimmi, but the dhimmi's brother appeared and chose ransom instead so Ali told him: "Have they threatened you?" He said: "No but I chose ransom and I don't think my brother will come back by the killing of another man" so Ali released the murderer and said: "You know better that the one in our dhimma is treated as one of us as regards to blood [life] and ransom."[29]

In maintenance and protection of a dhimmi's property, Shari'a does not differentiate between a dhimmi's property and a Muslim's property. So stealing a dhimmi's property is punished for by amputation even if it were a Muslim's hand. Al-Qurtubi says:


"A dhimmis' life is perpetually inviolable and so is a Muslim's life and both have become people of the House of Islam. The evidence of this is that a Muslim's hand is amputated if he steals a dhimmi's property. Therefore, a dhimm's life would by analogy be as inviolable as a Muslim's life as property derives its inviolability from the inviolability of its owner."[30]
Al-Mawardi says:


"And he -– an Imam — is bound to ensure two rights for them; first, to save and spare their lives and second, to protect them so that they would be secure by being spared and guarded by being protected."[31]

Al-Nawawi said:

"We must spare their lives and indemnify them against any damage caused by us to their lives and property. We are also committed to defend them against the people of war."[32]


Muslim jurisprudents reiterated this concept. Ibn Al-Najar Al-Hanbali says:

"An Imam must protect the people of dhimma, deter those who injure them and defend them against those who seek to harm them."[33]


When the Mongolian general Qatloushah invaded Damascus in the early eighth century Hijri and imprisoned Muslims as well as Christian and Jewish dhimmis, Imam Ibn Taimiyyah went to him with an august of scholars claiming the release of the prisoners. The general agreed on releasing the Muslims exclusively. Sheikh-ul-Islam, then replied:


"All prisoners including Jews and Christians who are in our dhimma must be released and we will never let any prisoner with you including Muslims and dhimmis. Dhimmis are equal to Muslims as regards rights and duties."

So the Mongolian general released them all.[34]


Al-Qarafi quotes Imam Ibn Hazm who in turn accounts for Muslims' unprecedented consensus on the following:

"We are obliged to fight people of war who seek a dhimmi with weapons and we must sacrifice our lives to this end in order to protect people in the dhimma of Allah Almighty and the dhimma of His Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, as handing a dhimmi over without such struggle and sacrifice is an omission of the dhimma covenant."[35]



5) Examples of the Treatment of Dhimmis by Muslims


When Muslims became incapable of honoring the condition of protection of dhimmis, they refunded to them the jizya for non-satisfaction of its pre-condition namely protection.


Judge, Abu Youssef, quotes in his book, Taxes, as well as other books, Makhoul who reports that a sequence of news was reported to Abu 'Ubaida declaring the invasion by the Roman troops. Abu 'Ubaida and the Muslims found this unmanageable, so Abu 'Ubaida wrote to every visor of the cities whose people agreed with Muslims on Jizya ordering them to refund the Jizya and taxes. He ordered them to inform the dhimmis of the following:

"We hereby reimburse your money as we have been informed of the troops that are about to invade us and the condition between us was to protect you and we cannot do this now, so we will reimburse the money we took from you. We do abide by our agreement and we will honor our condition if Allah rendered us victorious over them."[36]


When the people of dhimma participated in defending their countries, they were exempted from the jizya. This was done by Mu'awaiyah, may Allah be pleased with him, with the Armenians. The French historian Lauren says in his book Armenia between Byzantine and Islam:


"Armenians welcomed Muslims to free them from the oppressive Byzantine rule. They even allied with Muslims to fight the Khazr. Arabs maintained for Armenians their accustomed conditions and the covenant was given by Mu'awaya in 653 AD to Commander Theodor Rakhtoni and to all his co-nationals so long as such is their wish. The covenant in brief is as follows: "They will be exempted from jizya for three years. Then they are free to pay the amount they view appropriate. They also covenanted and assured him that they will cater for fifteen thousand knights instead of jizya and that the Caliph would send to the forts and strongholds of Armenia any Emirs or commanders or horses or judges and that if they were invaded by the Romans he is to provide them with all the help they might need. Mu'awaya hereby takes this covenant before Allah Almighty."[37]


The right of the people of dhimma does not stop short at defending them against their enemy, but it also includes defending them against any injury that might disturb them or cause them unrest even if by speech. Al-Qaraafi says: "The dhimmi agreement stipulates rights for the people of dhimma that we should honor because they are in our protection and neighborhood. They are also in our dhimma, the dhimma of Allah Almighty and the dhimma of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and Islam. So if any person attacks them even by ill speech or backbiting he has violated the dhimma of Allah and the dhimma of His Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, and the dhimma of Islam."[38]


Muslims, guided by their religion, continued their civilized giving when they were transformed from Jizya takers to almsgivers to protect and sustain poor dhimmis. Ibn Zangawaih narrated that 'Umar ibn Al-Khattab(R) saw a senile dhimmi man begging, so he said: "We are unfair to you if after this old age we ask you to pay jizya." Then he wrote to his workers prohibiting them from taking jizya from old people.[39] He also commanded: "Reduce the sum of jizya for people who cannot afford for it and give alms to those who are incapable of paying at all."[40]


Caliph ‘Umar ibn Abd ‘Aziz also wrote to his worker in Basra 'Udai Ibn Arta'a saying: "If you find that a dhimmi becomes old, weak and poor, give him [some alms] from the Muslims' Treasury House."[41]


Nevertheless if a dhimmi who can afford to pay jizya refrains from payment, he will be punished without violating his covenant. Al-Qurtubi says:

"It is permissible to punish them if they refrain from payment while such being affordable. However the one proving to be incapable of payment may not be punished because the one who is incapable to pay is exempted and the rich are not bound to pay the jizya for the poor."[42]

Muslim jurisprudents realized the significance of the dhimma covenant and the seriousness of breaching it; and that it is never terminated by mere abstention from payment. Al-Kasaru Al-Hanafi says:
"As for the agreement (the dhimma covenant) it is binding on us so that Muslims may not terminate it in any way whatsoever. As for dhimmis it is unbinding."[43]

Testimony of Western Historians

A person might ask: Have Muslims realized these magnificent ideal principles? Have they really honored the dhimma of their Prophet throughout their lengthy history? We will hereby state three testimonies by Westerners who repeated the truth duly established in our great history.
Welldiorant says:
"The people of dhimma: Christians, Zaradishts, Jews and Sabi'a; enjoyed a degree of tolerance during the Umayyad rule which can never be assimilated to Christian countries nowadays. They were free to practice their rituals. They maintained their churches and synagogues and the only obligation was that they should wear a special color and pay tax for every person pro rata his income. This sum ranged between two and four dinars. This tax was exclusively levied on non-Muslims who can go to war. However priests, women, children, slaves, elderly men, the disabled, the blind and the destitute were exempted from the tax. Dhimmis were exempted from military service in return. They were also exempted from zakat which is 2.5% of the annual income and the government was bound to protect them."[44]
Adam Mitz in his book The Islamic Civilization says:
"Dhimmis used to pay jizya each pro rata his income. Jizya was similar to national defense tax as it was only paid by men who can go to war while the disabled, priests, clergy were exempted unless they have wealth."[45]
Thomas Arnold in his The Preaching of Islam says:
"The purpose of levying this tax on Christians – as reiterated by some researchers – was not a form of punishment for not accepting Islam. They rather used to pay it with the remaining dhimmis namely non-Muslims subjects of the Islamic state whose beliefs prevent them from joining the military service in return for the protection secured to them by Muslims' swords."[46]
Islam thus is patently cleared by the historical testimony of objective non-Muslims from the allegation attributed to it by the unjust and non-objective.


Finally I ask Allah(T) to relieve us and bestow on us the ability to understand one another as regards controversial issues as Allah Almighty is the Omnipotent and may Allah(T) bless our Prophet Muhammad(P) and all his Companions(R).


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Footnotes

[1] Surat Al-Tawba: 29
[2] Al-Jami' Le' Ahkaam el Quraan (114/8), Al-Mugharab Fi Tarteeb Al-Mu'rab (143/1), see Mukhtarel-Sahaah (44/1)
[3] Surat Al-Tawba: 29
[4] Al-Jami' Le' Ahkaam el Quraan (72/8)
[5] See 'Irwa' Al-Ghaleel (1255)
[6] Narrated by Attermizi in his Sunan (623), Abu Dawood in his Sunan (1576), and An-Nasa'i in his Sunan (2450). The hadith was verified by Al-Albani in several places including Sahih At-Tarmizi (509)
[7] Mishkat Al-Masabeeh (3970), verified by Al-Albani
[8] Surat Al-Mumtahana (8)
[9] Narrated by Muslim under number (2553)
[10] Narrated by Abu Dawood in his Sunan (3052) in (170/3), verified by Al-Albani (2626). The same is mentioned in Sunan an-Nasa'i (2749) in (25/8)
[11] Narrated by Bukhari (2295)
[12] Narrated by Muslim (2613)
[13] Al-Jami' Le' Ahkaam el Quraan (115/8), and the interpretation of Al-Mawardi (352-351/2)
[14] Tabaqaat Ibn Sa'ad (266/1).
[15] Al-Forouq (15-14/3).
[16] Al-Tabaqaat Al-Kubra by Ibn Sa'ad (266/1).
[17] Al-Tabari's History (4/449).
[18] See: Al-Tabari's History (449/4).
[19] Fotouhel-Bildaan by Al-Belathri (128).
[20] Fotouh Misr wa Akhbaraha by Ibn Abdel-Hakam (68)
[21] Al-Tabari's History (503/2)
[22] Al-Mughni (290/9), Ahkaam Ahlel-Dhimma (139/1)
[23] Narrated by Bukhari (1392) in (1356/3)
[24] Taxes (9)
[25] Fotouh Al-Bildaan (156).
[26] Fotouh Al-Bildaan (132)
[27] Canonical Laws (176)
[28] Difference of Jurisprudents (233).
[29] Al-Shafi'i's Musnad (344/1).
[30] Al-Jami' Le' Ahkaam al Quraan (246/2).
[31] Sultan Rules (143).
[32] See Mughniel-Muhtaag (253/4)
[33] Matalib 'Ouliel Noha (602/2)
[34] Majmou' el-Fatawa (618-617/28)
[35] Al-Forouq (15-14/3)
[36] Taxes (135), also see Fotouhel Beldaan by Al-Belathri, and Fotouhel-Shaam by Alathri.
[37] See Fotouhel Beldaan (211-210)
[38] Al-Forouq (14/3)
[39] Property (163/1)
[40] The History of the City of Damascus (178/1)
[41] Property (170/1)
[42] Al-Jami' Le' Ahkaam el Quraan 74-73/8
[43] Bada'iel-Sana'I (112/7)
[44] The History of Civilization (131/12)
[45] The Islamic Civilization (96/1)
[46] The Preaching of Islam

Glossary

[1] Head tax on free non-Muslims under Muslim rule.
[2] A person from the People of the Book who did not convert to Islam but accepts to live under the Islamic rule.
[3] Consensus of the authorities in a legal question; one of the four principles of Islamic Law.


Source
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barney
05-20-2007, 01:34 AM
Hi.

Which modern day Muslim nations actually Charge Jizya. Is it called Jizya or something else?
How much is it and how is it usually paid? Direct debit, in person, charged annually or monthly/ deducted from wages?

Thanks
Reply

wilberhum
05-20-2007, 02:01 AM
Does anyone know the tax structure in Utopia?

I mean it doesn't exist anywhere either.
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barney
05-20-2007, 02:06 AM
Yeah, thats getting into the "are states islamic" debate. Obviously up unitil at least 1886 Persia charged Jizya on kaffir, (was that a Islamic state?)

I was wondering if the current states had anything set up that was jizya in name or by another name?

You dont have to have a "Islamic state", by the understanding of the majority, in order to implement Islamic law. Jizya is part of Islamic law, so where is it practiced?
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 03:21 AM
I think Jizra ended with the Ottoman Empire.
What amazes me is that anyone would take pride in the Jizra Tax.
I would take as much pride is such a tax as I would what was done to the native American Indians and the Jim Crow laws. But then that is just me. :skeleton:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
Criticism of jizya has typically focused not only on its specific application to non-Muslims, but also its humiliating nature. It has been described as a demonstration of "constitutional inferiority and humiliation"
[Jizya] is conducive to an arrogance that can easily descend into a lack of respect or concern for the well-being or dignity of non-Muslims. When this arrogant orientation is coupled with textual sources that exhort Muslims to fight against unbelievers (kuffar), it can produce a radical belligerency
It was, of course, evident that the tax represented a discrimination and was intended, according to the Koran's own words, to emphasize the inferior status of the non-believers.
"the Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say "Pay the Jizyah!" and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck."
Reply

barney
05-20-2007, 03:34 AM
Yup already seen that one wilb, but thanks anyway.

Malaysia currently has buminputra tax for Kaffir.
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Woodrow
05-20-2007, 03:47 AM
A tax by any other name is still a tax. When you live in a country you pay tax to support the country. In an Islamic nation the Muslims are obligated to pay Zakat, since a nonMuslim is not obligated to pay Zakat, does that mean they should get to live tax free? No, to enjoy the benefits of the country they need to pay their fair share which would be Jizya.

The simple fact is most people do not like to pay taxes even if the tax is fair.
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
A tax by any other name is still a tax. When you live in a country you pay tax to support the country. In an Islamic nation the Muslims are obligated to pay Zakat, since a nonMuslim is not obligated to pay Zakat, does that mean they should get to live tax free? No, to enjoy the benefits of the country they need to pay their fair share which would be Jizya.

The simple fact is most people do not like to pay taxes even if the tax is fair.
So how I see little correlation between "pay their fair share " and "the Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say "Pay the Jizyah!" and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck."
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Woodrow
05-20-2007, 04:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
So how I see little correlation between "pay their fair share " and "the Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say "Pay the Jizyah!" and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck."
Sounds like the forefathers of the IRS.


Keep in mind the Non-Muslims often did not want to pay any taxes and it had to be taken by force. That was not so uncommon among all people in the past. Even in the time of Jesus(as) the tax collectors were considered crooks by the Jews even with Jesus(as) telling the people to "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars". I will agree that treatment is rough by todays standards, but, it was probably a very needed tactic to collect any tax in the past.


Also in looking at your same source check and see who was obligated to pay it and who was exempt.


In states ruled by Islamic law, jizya or jizyah (Arabic: جزْية; Ottoman Turkish cizye) is a per capita tax imposed on able bodied non-Muslim men of military age. The tax is not levied on slaves, women, children, monks, the old, the sick,[1] hermits and the poor,[2] and is subject to certain conditions. The tax allows the non-Muslim citizens to practice their faith and to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy as well as being entitled to Muslim protection from outside aggression and being exempted from military service amongst numerous other exemptions levied upon Muslim citizens
those that were obligated to pay it were not exactly people who would want to do so. These where usually conqured enemies that had no desire to paticipate in the finances of their conquerers.
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 04:28 AM
Non-Muslims often did not want to pay any taxes
Yap, I bet the Muslims just stood in line to pay taxes.
I will agree that treatment is rough by today’s standards
It is never fair to judge yesterday’s practices by today’s standard.
That is why I find it so discussing to glorify ancient practices by today’s standards.
At the time, many thought Jim Crow laws were needed and just.
I would find it hard to praise those laws based on today’s standard.
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Malaikah
05-20-2007, 04:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think Jizra ended with the Ottoman Empire.
What amazes me is that anyone would take pride in the Jizra Tax.
I would take as much pride is such a tax as I would what was done to the native American Indians and the Jim Crow laws. But then that is just me. :skeleton:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya
Criticism of jizya has typically focused not only on its specific application to non-Muslims, but also its humiliating nature. It has been described as a demonstration of "constitutional inferiority and humiliation"
[Jizya] is conducive to an arrogance that can easily descend into a lack of respect or concern for the well-being or dignity of non-Muslims. When this arrogant orientation is coupled with textual sources that exhort Muslims to fight against unbelievers (kuffar), it can produce a radical belligerency
It was, of course, evident that the tax represented a discrimination and was intended, according to the Koran's own words, to emphasize the inferior status of the non-believers.
"the Jizyah shall be taken from them with belittlement and humiliation. The dhimmi shall come in person, walking not riding. When he pays, he shall stand, while the tax collector sits. The collector shall seize him by the scruff of the neck, shake him, and say "Pay the Jizyah!" and when he pays it he shall be slapped on the nape of the neck."
you have been provided with an articles that explains what jizya is, and instead of replying to the article you go and find some article from wikipedia of all places, and close to comment on that instead.

Did you miss that part about how Muslims have to risk their own lives in order to protect those who pay the jizya, and that if they are unable to do that, they have to return the jizya to them?
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
you have been provided with an articles that explains what jizya is, and instead of replying to the article you go and find some article from wikipedia or all places, and close to comment on that instead.

Did you miss that part about how Muslims have to risk their own lives in order to protect those who pay the jizya, and that if they are unable to do that, they have to return the jizya to them?
I read the whole thing. So no, I didn't miss the part where Muslims praised them selves for all the wonderful things they did. But I put more credit on non-self serving sources.
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Malaikah
05-20-2007, 05:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I read the whole thing. So no, I didn't miss the part where Muslims praised them selves for all the wonderful things they did. But I put more credit on non-self serving sources.
Isn't funny how much faith you have in a statement found on wikipedia by a person you have probably never heard of which isn't even supported by evidence from the Quran or sunnah of the Prophet at all, so we have no idea at all about the authenticity of the statement made by the scholar.

Yeh, very reliable indeed. Not.:rollseyes
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vpb
05-20-2007, 05:05 AM
Did you miss that part about how Muslims have to risk their own lives in order to protect those who pay the jizya, and that if they are unable to do that, they have to return the jizya to them?
they always do, I think they have some sensors that whenever they face these things they close their ears and eyes. it's like a computaaaaaa :p

Surah Al'Araf - 7:179
Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 05:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Isn't funny how much faith you have in a statement found on wikipedia by a person you have probably never heard of which isn't even supported by evidence from the Quran or sunnah of the Prophet at all, so we have no idea at all about the authenticity of the statement made by the scholar.

Yeh, very reliable indeed. Not.:rollseyes
No, it isn't funny. I don't consider anything in the Quran or Sunnah as evidence.
Wikipedia is only one of thousands of sources that discredit the glory of Jizya. Most all non-Muslim sources conceder it as an act of religious intolerance.
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Malaikah
05-20-2007, 05:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I don't consider anything in the Quran or Sunnah as evidence.
What??? You don't think the Quran and sunnah are the sourced used by Muslims? Where do you think we learn our religion from, the bible?

Wikipedia is only one of thousands of sources that discredit the glory of Jizya.
You missed the point. They have discredited nothing because they have failed to show that what they claim is an Islamic practise. To prove that they have to provide evidence from either the Quran or the sunnah that Muslims believe in it.

They haven't done that.

Most all non-Muslim sources conceder it as an act of religious intolerance.
So? It wouldn't be the first thing they have wrong about Islam. Most non-Muslims who waste their time writing about Islam will also tell you about how evil the prophet was, and yet Muslims know this to be a load of rubbish. Thank god though, there are non-Muslims out there open minded enough to realise that if you want to learn about Islam, you learn it from a Muslim who understand the religion and are qualified to teach, not from an anti-Islamic non-Muslim who thinks he is capable of interpreting Islam in anyway way he likes with out having the least bit of qualification or understanding.
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vpb
05-20-2007, 05:38 AM
Thank god though, there are non-Muslims out there open minded enough to realise that if you want to learn about Islam, you learn it from a Muslim who understand the religion and are qualified to teach, not from an anti-Islamic non-Muslim who thinks he is capable of interpreting Islam in anyway way he likes with out having the least bit of qualification or understanding.
it's like going to a car mechanic asking him about why my TV isn't working? :aboo:
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 05:43 AM
You don't think the Quran and sunnah are the sourced used by Muslims?
Of course I know you use them. I don't.
To prove that they have to provide evidence from either the Quran or the sunnah that Muslims believe in it.
Nothing I say and nothing anyone else says will get you to face facts. You are filly entitled to believe as you wish.
I'm always amazed that people who discredit everything anyone says against them yet call those that don't accept everything they say closed minded.
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 05:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
it's like going to a car mechanic asking him about why my TV isn't working? :aboo:
Or reading a Mythology book to learn about "Earth Science".
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vpb
05-20-2007, 06:33 AM
Or reading a Mythology book to learn about "Earth Science".
I see where you're going with this :):)

Subhanallah.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
I see where you're going with this :):)

Subhanallah.
He is only practising what he preaches as he says: "I put more credit on non-self serving sources".

I wander where he takes his proofs for agnosticism.
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 07:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
He is only practising what he preaches as he says: "I put more credit on non-self serving sources".

I wander where he takes his proofs for agnosticism.
Read my signature. :skeleton:
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Keltoi
05-20-2007, 07:46 PM
I think there also needs to be an understanding that what the Qu'ran says and what is actually being done or has been done in physical reality are two different things.
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- Qatada -
05-20-2007, 08:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think there also needs to be an understanding that what the Qu'ran says and what is actually being done or has been done in physical reality are two different things.

What the Qur'an and Sunnah says has been established in reality, :) try looking at the Golden Era of Islaam.

During the times of the famous Caliphs, Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Umar ibn Abdul Aziz etc. I think you'll realise how much justice there was - the Kings of other nations [i.e. Ceasar, Chosroes etc were in Palaces, yet these Muslim rulers lived in mud houses], yet they ruled over a third upto half of the world with total justice according to the laws of Qur'an and Sunnah.



Regards.
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 09:04 PM
I looked at the "Golden Era of Islaam". It truly was a Golden Era for Islaam. It was truly better to be a Christian under Islam than be a Muslim under Christianity. If fact, for many, it was better to be a Christian under Muslims than be a Christian under Christians.
But that by no means it was GOOD to be under Muslims. At least by todays standards.
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- Qatada -
05-20-2007, 09:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I looked at the "Golden Era of Islaam". It truly was a Golden Era for Islaam. It was truly better to be a Christian under Islam than be a Muslim under Christianity. If fact, for many, it was better to be a Christian under Muslims than be a Christian under Christians.
But that by no means it was GOOD to be under Muslims. At least by todays standards.

Even by todays standards it is good to be under Islamic Shari'a, since Allaah has sent the guidance to His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) which is suitable and flawless until the Day of Ressurection. :)



Regards.
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 09:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Even by todays standards it is good to be under Islamic Shari'a, since Allaah has sent the guidance to His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) which is suitable and flawless until the Day of Ressurection. :)
Regards.
For you there is belief. Me, I prefer facts.
I guess that is why you are a confirmed theist and I’m a confirmed agnostic.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Read my signature. :skeleton:
There is no proof. Lol so you have no proof at your convinience.

The defiant dhimi in USA. Lol
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think there also needs to be an understanding that what the Qu'ran says and what is actually being done or has been done in physical reality are two different things.
Perhaps you think that there should be no Jizyah at all just like the ruling of Jesus was "But those who do not want that I should regn over them, bring them here and slay them in the very sight".
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I looked at the "Golden Era of Islaam". It truly was a Golden Era for Islaam. It was truly better to be a Christian under Islam than be a Muslim under Christianity. If fact, for many, it was better to be a Christian under Muslims than be a Christian under Christians.
But that by no means it was GOOD to be under Muslims. At least by todays standards.
If it was this bad why did the christians of Jerusalem ask the brits to give them as rights the treaty they had with Umar ibn Al-Khatab?! Read the history.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
For you there is belief. Me, I prefer facts.
I guess that is why you are a confirmed theist and I’m a confirmed agnostic.
It is funny that you complain about muslims that will give you the opportunity to pay Jizyah while the Jews and the Christians will not allow this commodity.
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 09:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
If it was this bad why did the christians of Jerusalem ask the brits to give them as rights the treaty they had with Umar ibn Al-Khatab?! Read the history.
One, "Not bad dear", does not make all deals good. :skeleton:
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
One, "Not bad dear", does not make all deals good. :skeleton:
Does that mean that the christians could not give to christians not even better than not bad? lol. Listen to you. Now you upset the christians.lol.
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
It is funny that you complain about muslims that will give you the opportunity to pay Jizyah while the Jews and the Christians will not allow this commodity.
There are many cases where Muslims were not as bad as Christians. During that time, I would probably prefer the inferior status Islam would give me. That does not mean that I prefer an inferior status.
But I surely understand the human desire to be considered superior.
It truth there is nothing superior to equality.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
There are many cases where Muslims were not as bad as Christians. During that time, I would probably prefer the inferior status Islam would give me. That does not mean that I prefer an inferior status.
But I surely understand the human desire to be considered superior.
It truth there is nothing superior to equality.
This is why we encourage non-muslims to become muslims.
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
This is why we encourage non-muslims to become muslims.
There is no equality in Islam. :skeleton:
That was one of the reasons for the tax. Ya, don't forget the tax, after all that is what this thread is about. :thumbs_up
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 09:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
There is no equality in Islam. :skeleton:
That was one of the reasons for the tax. Ya, don't forget the tax, after all that is what this thread is about. :thumbs_up
Do not forget that the dhimis would be exempt from zakat also and yet benefit from the public funds. So there are different situations for different people. That is where the equality comes. Just like non-muslims do not pay zakat, muslims do not pay jizyah.:thumbs_up
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wilberhum
05-20-2007, 10:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
Do not forget that the dhimis would be exempt from zakat also and yet benefit from the public funds. So there are different situations for different people. That is where the equality comes. Just like non-muslims do not pay zakat, muslims do not pay jizyah.:thumbs_up
There goes that different but equal. :? Back in the 60's it was called "Separate but Equal". :raging: Same concept.
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
There goes that different but equal. :? Back in the 60's it was called "Separate but Equal". :raging: Same concept.
Not quite the same but there it goes for the achivement of intelect and abandonment of religions then. Nothing changes.
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- Qatada -
05-20-2007, 10:12 PM
:salamext:


I found this hadith! it's well nice alhamdulillah :D


Mu'ad Ibn Jabal narrated; The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) sent me to Yemen and he commanded me to take the Jizyah from everyone who has reached the age of puberty - one Dhinar - or its equivalent in Ma'afiri (garments of Yemeni origin.)

Related by the three Imams. Ibn Hibban and Al-Hakin graded it Sahih (Authentic.)



Whereas Muslims have to pay 2.5% of all their wealth right? Plus compare it to their contemporaries and that is nothing subhaan Allaah. And Allaah knows best. :)
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Sunnih
05-20-2007, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


I found this hadith! it's well nice alhamdulillah :D


Mu'ad Ibn Jabal narrated; The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) sent me to Yemen and he commanded me to take the Jizyah from everyone who has reached the age of puberty - one Dhinar - or its equivalent in Ma'afiri (garments of Yemeni origin.)

Related by the three Imams. Ibn Hibban and Al-Hakin graded it Sahih (Authentic.)



Whereas Muslims have to pay 2.5% of all their wealth right? Plus compare it to their contemporaries and that is nothing subhaan Allaah. And Allaah knows best. :)
Nice hadith. This is indeed the well established oppinion on the amount of jizyah payable. How small is this compare to zakat 2.5% of your savings.

subhanallah we must have been thinking the same.
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barney
05-20-2007, 11:41 PM
Qur'an 9:29:

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold forbidden that which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

If a non-muslim paid jizya for several years and then willfully refused to pay it, would that automatically open them to legally taking it?

Muhammad sent a letter to the Christians and Jews of Elath :
I have no intention of fighting you before writing to you. Thou hast to accept Islam, or pay the tax, and obey God and his Messenger and the messengers of his Messenger, and do them honour and dress them in fine clothing, not in the raiment of raiders; therefore clothe Zayd in fine robes, for if you satisfy my envoys, you will satisfy me. Surely the tax is known to you. Therefore if you wish to be secure on land and on sea, obey God and his Messenger and you will be free of all payments that you owed the Arab [tribes] or non-Arabs, apart from the payment to God [which is] the payment of his Messenger. But be careful lest thou do not satisfy them, for then I shall not accept anything from you, but I shall fight you and take the young as captives and slay the elderly. . . . Come then, before a calamity befalls you...
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islamirama
05-21-2007, 12:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
There goes that different but equal. :? Back in the 60's it was called "Separate but Equal". :raging: Same concept.
Does IRS care about your faight, heritage, background, or anthing? you live here, you work,so you pay tax. Islamic system is better. Muslims pay zakat and non-Muslims pay jizya, both are paying. Only difference is non-Muslims are exempt from joining the army or other obligations Muslims have to do and yet still enjoy protection and rights equal to if not better than any non-muslim country.
Reply

wilberhum
05-21-2007, 01:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Does IRS care about your faight, heritage, background, or anthing? you live here, you work,so you pay tax. Islamic system is better. Muslims pay zakat and non-Muslims pay jizya, both are paying. Only difference is non-Muslims are exempt from joining the army or other obligations Muslims have to do and yet still enjoy protection and rights equal to if not better than any non-muslim country.
The Islamic system is only better if you are a Muslim. That gives you your legal superiority status. I know of no non-Muslim that thanks any theocracy is better. No one wants to accept the inferior status that would be given us. I, as not being a “person of the book”, don’t even have the right to my life.
You can dream all your life, but no non-Muslim wants your bigoted system and no non-Muslim thinks your system has anything to do with god.
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islamirama
05-21-2007, 01:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
The Islamic system is only better if you are a Muslim. That gives you your legal superiority status. I know of no non-Muslim that thanks any theocracy is better. No one wants to accept the inferior status that would be given us. I, as not being a “person of the book”, don’t even have the right to my life.
You can dream all your life, but no non-Muslim wants your bigoted system and no non-Muslim thinks your system has anything to do with god.
Read the history, many non-Muslims prefered to live as Dhimis under Muslim rule than be ruled by their tryant and oppressive rulers. There is no superiors status of any kind in Islam, it's a matter of legality. Like i said, i pay zakat and you pay jizya tax, we both pay but you get the benefit of not be forced to go fight or other duties the muslims will be required to do. You being not a people of the book is irrevelant because you are non-Muslim nonetheless and the same rule applies all non-muslims. Before you call this a bigoted system, i suggest you go do proper research into it and the history and statements of non-muslims historians, scholars and those who lived as dhimis before you present your bigoted and narrow minded views here.
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barney
05-21-2007, 01:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Only difference is non-Muslims are exempt from joining the army or other obligations Muslims have to do and yet still enjoy protection and rights equal to if not better than any non-muslim country.

Utterly sensible to ban kaffir from joining a Muslim countries army. made sense in Mohammeds time and still makes sense today.
In the West Muslims can and do join the military. they are people in their own right ..not their religion.

Protection: From what? From the state that levies the Jizya. :D If you dont pay the Jizya you historically were fair game.

Rights better than the wests: :enough!: :X :laugh: :enough!: :X :laugh:
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islamirama
05-21-2007, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Utterly sensible to ban kaffir from joining a Muslim countries army. made sense in Mohammeds time and still makes sense today.
In the West Muslims can and do join the military. they are people in their own right ..not their religion.

Protection: From what? From the state that levies the Jizya. :D If you dont pay the Jizya you historically were fair game.

Rights better than the wests: :enough!: :X :laugh: :enough!: :X :laugh:
Muslims don't want to join the army in the west, the few that do are not that much upon Islam anway. We are no interested in joining your army to shower together naked and then go kill our brothers for your leader's greed.

If you don't pay jizya or zakat, you face what you would face when you have to deal with IRS for not paying taxes.

Besides, you livein the west and not under islamic rule much less a Muslim land. Why are you so concerned about it?
Reply

wilberhum
05-21-2007, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Read the history, many non-Muslims prefered to live as Dhimis under Muslim rule than be ruled by their tryant and oppressive rulers. There is no superiors status of any kind in Islam, it's a matter of legality. Like i said, i pay zakat and you pay jizya tax, we both pay but you get the benefit of not be forced to go fight or other duties the muslims will be required to do. You being not a people of the book is irrevelant because you are non-Muslim nonetheless and the same rule applies all non-muslims. Before you call this a bigoted system, i suggest you go do proper research into it and the history and statements of non-muslims historians, scholars and those who lived as dhimis before you present your bigoted and narrow minded views here.
I just hate it when people don't read prior posts. :raging: Go back and read what I have posted especially #25 and #32. It is a bigoted system. Not as bad as many but no less bigoted. :?
The fact that I would prefer to be lynched instead of being boiled in oil does not mean I approve of lynching.
:X
Reply

barney
05-21-2007, 01:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
1 Muslims don't want to join the army in the west, the few that do are not that much upon Islam anway.

2 We are no interested in joining your army to shower together naked and then go kill our brothers for your leader's greed.

3 If you don't pay jizya or zakat, you face what you would face when you have to deal with IRS for not paying taxes.

4 Besides, you livein the west and not under islamic rule much less a Muslim land. Why are you so concerned about it?
1: Done some research on that have we? Interveiwed them about their faith?
I served with muslim soldiers.

2: Where did the showering together naked come from! LOL! Western armies provide everything from Halal rations to seperate religious services.

3: The Inland revenue came round to my house last week and beheaded me because my council tax was late, so i'd agree with you.

4: Because Jizya is a concept that i find racist, intolerant and indicative of what Islamic rule is like. Why are you concerned about my concern.

And lets get back onto topic....My inbox is getting full of "post deleted" messages.
Reply

wilberhum
05-21-2007, 02:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Muslims don't want to join the army in the west
For someone that lives in the West, you sure don't know much about the West. :skeleton:
There are so many Muslims in the armed services that they are currently requiting Islamic "chaplains".
You see not all Muslims think OBL is one of the “Good Guys”. :?
Reply

islamirama
05-21-2007, 03:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
For someone that lives in the West, you sure don't know much about the West. :skeleton:
There are so many Muslims in the armed services that they are currently requiting Islamic "chaplains".
You see not all Muslims think OBL is one of the “Good Guys”. :?
Most Muslims you find the army like in the Prisons are converts, americans. The patriotic amerians who become Muslims serve the in army, wave US flags and still enjoy american culture. The muslims of prison who had been given ghetoo life by your system take islam to heart, abandon their evil ways imposed upon them by the society of the white men, and now the knowing true face of the system, despise the system and adhere to islam only.

Not all Muslims "think" OBL is good guy according to your opinons, 25 countries majority voiced their opinion in the polls for OBL and against your regime.


format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I just hate it when people don't read prior posts. :raging: Go back and read what I have posted especially #25 and #32. It is a bigoted system. Not as bad as many but no less bigoted. :?
The fact that I would prefer to be lynched instead of being boiled in oil does not mean I approve of lynching.
:X
I don't need to read prior posts to know what you think about Islamic law and rules and jizya. Every country has their ways, and we have ours. If you don't like it then you need to worry about it cuz you're not living under one. And you definitly need to go do some research rather then bore us with your dull minded bigoted attacks on the topic without any proper knowledge. See the reply, maybe it'll help....


format_quote Originally Posted by barney
The Inland revenue came round to my house last week and beheaded me because my council tax was late, so i'd agree with you.

Because Jizya is a concept that i find racist, intolerant and indicative of what Islamic rule is like. Why are you concerned about my concern.

And lets get back onto topic....My inbox is getting full of "post deleted" messages.
Either you are very ignorant or naive to think no country will come after you if you don't pay taxes. Your suggestion of beheading for not paying taxes only shows your ignorance on the topic and unfounded opinions tainted by personal hatred and prejudice. I'm concerned cuz i hate to see an ignorant person attacking a subject without any knowledge as if he was an expert.

Is the Jizya Tax Oppressive?
By
Bassam Zawadi

Christians have been constantly criticizing Islam's stance regarding Jizya. They say that it is meant to oppress them. Besides the fact that this concept is also found in their Bible
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Jizya I will show that Jizya is not meant to oppress the Christians or Jews.


For those who don't know, the Jizya is a tax imposed on the Christians and Jews living under the protection of the Islamic state. However, it is not imposed on all Christians and Jews. It is only imposed on the men who have attained puberty. So therefore it is not imposed on the women and children. The tax is also imposed fairly and is not meant to be overburdening.


The Jizya tax guarantees the Christians and Jews complete protection under the Islamic state. If an enemy country attacks the Islamic country, the Islamic country has a duty to defend the Christians and Jews and the Christians and Jews are not even obliged to fight!

Muslims also have to pay a yearly tax called Zakat. Zakat is even binding on property, and jewellery. Zakat should also be paid in the form of food as well. The Jizya is not binding on the property of the Christians and Jews.


Christians might use Surah 9:29 to show that Muslims must fight them until they pay the Jizya, so this shows discrimination. However, this also applies to the Muslims who do not pay their Zakat! Abu Bakr fought against the Muslims who didn't pay Zakat. So how does this discriminate against the Christians and Jews?

This is completely justified. If they go against the Islamic rule and government they deserve to be punished. What else was Abu Bakr supposed to do? In America if someone does not pay their taxes they can go to jail. Does that make America unjust? In China they kill tax evaders (A New York Times article describes the context and details of one businessman who was executed in China for tax evasion (11 Mar. 2001). at http://www.irb-cisr.gc.ca/en/research/ndp/ref/?action=view&doc=chn41156e). You have to understand that these are God's laws. It is probably difficult for a non-Muslim to understand this but from the Muslim perspective it is completely justifiable. For God sake people get executed or punished for crimes against man made laws, what do you expect to happen to people that break God's laws?


Zakah is one of the 5 pillars of Islam and it is compulsory on everyone. It is compulsory even on the non-Muslim, this is called Jizya. Jizya does not degrade the non-Muslim people, it actually brings equality. Since the Muslims are obliged to pay Zakah, then why cant non-Muslims pay Jizya? That brings equality between the two.

The Jizya is a tax levied on non-Muslims in lieu of military service which is compulsory for Muslims but not for non-Muslims. The amount of Jizya is much less than the Zakat, which is levied on Muslims only. The non-Muslims paying Jizya were exempt from compulsory military service in a Muslim State but were entitled to full protection. (http://www.netmuslims.com/info/economic.html)



More @ HERE
Reply

wilberhum
05-21-2007, 03:36 AM
Most Muslims you find the army like in the Prisons are converts
And you know this how? There are no stats. So you just write what you thank and present them as facts. :?
The muslims of prison who had been given ghetoo life by your system take islam to heart
I understand that the main reason that Islam is the fastest growing religion is because of prison conversions. I wonder why there is such a recidivism rate?
evil ways imposed upon them by the society of the white men
Oh now men are evil based on the color of there skin? Interesting. Do you get your racism from your religion?
Not all Muslims "think" OBL is good guy
That is exactly what I said. So what is your point?
Every country has their ways, and we have ours.
Where is Your Country? I thought you lived in the US. Where ever it is, you should go there. I can't, they would surly kill me.
Reply

wilberhum
05-21-2007, 04:38 AM
An interesting Online Magazine I found.
http://www.janasangh.com/jsart.aspx?stid=207
Quranic Injunction
Fight those who believe not
In God nor the Last Day,
Nor hold that forbidden
Which hath been forbidden
By God and His Apostle,
Nor acknowledge the Religion
Of Truth, (even if they are)
Of the People of the Book,
Until they pay the Jizya
With willing submission,
And feel themselves subdued.
(The Holy Quran by A. Yusuf Ali).
As the rule of Islam spread beyond the borders of Arabias particularly over the Hindus and Buddhists, Muslim rulers found it impossible either to convert the entire population or to exterminate the whole. The solution was found by admitting the Hindus and Buddhists (Pagans) to the status of Zimmis. Zimmis are those non-Muslims whose life is held under a contract. Jizya (a capitation tax) is a punishment for their unbelief and in order to humiliate them. According to Hanafi School of Islamic law, Jizya is paid as a compensation for being spared from death. Another Islamic source remarks that the infidels who live in Moslem State are subjected to the payment of Jizya for his humiliation and punishment for
Manner of collection of Jizya:
Both the Schools of Al Shafei and Malik agree that when the zimmi comes to pay he should keep standing while the collector is seated, and he must wear the distinctive dress prescribed for the zimmis. During the process of payment the zimmi is to be seized by the collar and vigorously shaken and pulled about writes Dr. P. Saran, in his book Studies In Medieval Indian History (This book is introduced by the legendary Professor Mohammed Habib).
Jizya Imposition on Parsis of Iran
One of the severest hardships under which these people suffered, until quite recently, was the levy of the poll tax called, Jizya. The Moslem population alone was exempt from this tax, all unbelievers residing in the kingdom while the Armenians, Jews and Parsis were compelled to pay it.
The straits to which these races were driven in order to meet this tax were often deplorable. The annual tax leviable on the Parsis, according to the imperial order, was six hundred and sixty seven tomans. As is the case, however, in all Oriental kingdoms, the governors or collectors and magistrates enhanced the amount by their own commissions, and consequently the sum required to be paid by these poor people often amounted to as much as two thousand tomans (equivalent to Pound 1000 of our money). It appears that about a thousand grown up Parsis were required to pay tax. Of these, two hundred were able to bear the burden without difficulty, four hundred paid it with great inconvenience, while the rest were unable to do so at all, even at the point of sword.
Upon the annual collection of the tax the scenes presented at the homes of those who were unable to pay it were most terrible to witness. Unheard of cruelties were practiced in the vain attempt to extort money from those who had none for even their own wants. Some, to save themselves from torture, and as the last resort, gave up their religion and embraced the faith of Mohommed, when they were relieved from the payment of the tax. Others, who would not violate their conscience, abandoned individuals, even when they escaped had always to leave their wives and children behind them (History of the Parsis by Dosabhai Framji Karaka, published by Cosmo Publication, Div. of Genesis Publishing Pvt. Ltd., New Delhi).
Imposition of Jizya in India:
Arabs Muslims were the first to invade India. Imad-ud-din Muhammad bin Kasim conquered Sind in 711 AD. The law of Islam on how to deal with the inhabitants of an infidel country was quite clear: (1) those who were sharers in Revelation like the Hebrews and Christians could be allowed to live and practice their religion provided they paid Jizya, and (2) those who were intolerable infidels and idolators like the Hindus and Budhist were either to convert to Islam or face death. According to Ferishta, the chronicler, those Hindus who refused to embrace Islam and were seventeen years of age and above were put to death and the rest were enslaved. The women were appropriated. As per Islamic tradition, a fifth of the plunder both human beings and treasure was sent to the Caliph and the remainder distributed among the soldiers of Islam. This is the face of Islam that Hindus saw and experienced at the hands of first Muslim conqueror of India. Later on, however, Kasim agreed to the status of zimmi being extended to Hindus and Muslims like it had been given earlier to Zorastrians and Magi in Iran.
The Sultanate in India was based on the distinction between its Hindu and Muslim subjects. The Muslims formed the ruling class and the position of Hindus was no different than that of slaves. The foremost distinction was the payment of Jizya which had always to be paid personally by the Hindus When the Jizya was first levied by the Prophet in 9 A H it included a land tax as well and probably represented the entire financial burden borne by the non-Muslims under his protection. Under the earlier Caliphs, the terms Jizya and Kharaj (land tax) seem to be interchangeable. The differentiation implied in the two forms of taxation, Jizya and Kharaj was not made until the time of the late Ummayyad. When it was introduced in India, it had become an additional capitation tax (Page 7, The Religious Policy of the Mughal Emperors by Sri Ram Sharma, Lahore/Delhi, 1940). Besides Jizya, Muslim ruler also collected a pilgrim tax from Hindus at places of religious fairs. This was done despite the fact that the Islamic State strictly prohibits public celebration of non-Islamic practices in an Islamic State. This was, strictly speaking, an unholy source of profit to a Muslim polity. Under the rule of Ala-ud-din, a scheme of confiscatory taxation was put into operation so that the Hindus were left with only their daily needs. While expounding the Law, for the information of Sultan Ala-ud-din, Qazi Mughisuddin of Bayana stated that the Hindu Khirajguzar or payer of Jizya is, he who, should the collector choose to spit into his mouth, he should open the same without hesitation so that the official may spit into it. Sir Jadunath Sarkar in his book A Short History Aurangzeb also quotes the learned Mughisuddin : By these acts of degradation are shown the extreme obedience of the zimmi, the glorification of the true faith of Islam, and the abasement of false faith. The Prophet has commanded us to slay them, plunder them, and make them captive .. No other religious authority except the great Imam {Hanifa} whose faith we follow, has sanctioned the imposition of the jizya on Hindus. According to all other theologians, the rule for Hindus is Either Islam or death.
In the beginning, the Brahmins had been exempt from Jizya but Firoz Shah Tughlaq, did not find any justification for this exemption. In order to make India conform to the ideal of Muslim State, the tax was also imposed on Brahamins. When Aurangzeb came on the throne, Jizya was imposed in all strictness on all Hindus.

This is the source of your great pride? This is a system that you think todays non-Muslims would long for?
Reply

islamirama
05-21-2007, 05:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum


This is the source of your great pride? This is a system that you think todays non-Muslims would long for?
Apparently you are here to cause fitnah and nothing more. Go ahead, keep going to sites that support your anti-islamic views and close mindedness. I don't think you are here to learn and you most certainly are not having any affect on us with your rhetorics of continual Islamic bash, which is a lot more freedom of speech than you will find on christain sites.

Book 17, Number 17.24.46:
Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that Umar ibn Abd al-Aziz wrote to his governors telling them to relieve any people who payed the jizya from paying the jizya if they became muslims.


Malik said, "The sunna is that there is no jizya due from women or children of people of the Book, and that jizya is only taken from men who have reached puberty. The people of dhimma and the magians do not have to pay any zakat on their palms or their vines or their crops or their livestock. This is because zakat is imposed on the muslims to purify them and to be given back to their poor, whereas jizya is imposed on the people of the Book to humble them.



As long as they are in the country they have agreed to live in, they do not have to pay anything on their property except the jizya. If, however, they trade in muslim countries, coming and going in them, a tenth is taken from what they invest in such trade. This is because jizya is only imposed on them on conditions, which they have agreed on, namely that they will remain in their own countries, and that war will be waged for them on any enemy of theirs, and that if they then leave that land to go anywhere else to do business they will haveto pay a tenth. Whoever among them does business with the people of Egypt, and then goes to Syria, and then does business with the people of Syria and then goes to Iraq and does business with them and then goes on to Madina, or Yemen, or other similar places, has to pay a tenth.


People of the Book and magians do not have to pay any zakat on any of their property, livestock, produce or crops. The sunna still continues like that. They remain in the deen they were in, and they continue to do what they used to do.



If in any one year they frequently come and go in muslim countries then they have to pay a tenth every time they do so, since that is outside what they have agreed upon, and not one of the conditions stipulated for them. This is what I have seen the people of knowledge of our city doing."
Compared to the oppressive rulers of kuffar lands who heavely taxed the poor, the dhimmis had it much better here. No tax till you hit puberty, no tax on women, on property, livestcok, produce or crops. And war waged on their behalf to fight their enemies and protect them. Go educate yourself before you make a biffer fool out of yourself.

Dhimmi is one who is living under Islamic rule in a Muslim land. Like you would call immigrants, "immigrant" and yet i see you wit the name "defiant dhimmi" under your SN as if you live in a muslim land. You don't even know what a dhimmi is, calling yourself dhimmi while you don't even live in Muslim land, much less Shari'ah based one.
Reply

barney
05-21-2007, 05:53 AM
So the Tax is fair because only Adults are levied with it.

The beheading reference is because non-payment of jizya results according to several muslim scholors, in the "protection", being removed.With fatal consequences. Thats happening right now in Iraq and the Sudan.
The Mafia runs "protection" rackets as well. if I dont pay my taxes...I'll go to jail. I wont die for it. Your above apologist says that Muslims fought and killed muslim-non-payers too. Paying a fine or dying for your religion is wrong wrong wrong by any sense of non-medeivel standards. Sure it was a decree from pre-medeivel times, and we used to hang non-payers of tax in those days too.

Y'Know what? We Moved ON!
Reply

wilberhum
05-21-2007, 06:01 AM
telling them to relieve any people who payed the jizya from paying the jizya if they became muslims.
Well there is no compulsion to religion, but it is cheaper if you do.
Dhimmi is one who is living under Islamic rule in a Muslim land.
Dhimmi, is Islamic for the "N" word. The purpose is the same. Insure you Convey an attitude of inferiority. But then you have already stated what you think of us whites.
Like you would call immigrants,
Immigrants are not a Conquered people. That is kind of the standard I see here all the time. Call things what there are not to distort there meaning to justify what you want.

You have also proven you don't know much about me or what I know.

PS I don't care what Christian sights do.
Reply

Malaikah
05-21-2007, 08:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Muhammad sent a letter to the Christians and Jews of Elath :
I have no intention of fighting you before writing to you. Thou hast to accept Islam, or pay the tax, and obey God and his Messenger and the messengers of his Messenger, and do them honour and dress them in fine clothing, not in the raiment of raiders; therefore clothe Zayd in fine robes, for if you satisfy my envoys, you will satisfy me. Surely the tax is known to you. Therefore if you wish to be secure on land and on sea, obey God and his Messenger and you will be free of all payments that you owed the Arab [tribes] or non-Arabs, apart from the payment to God [which is] the payment of his Messenger. But be careful lest thou do not satisfy them, for then I shall not accept anything from you, but I shall fight you and take the young as captives and slay the elderly. . . . Come then, before a calamity befalls you...
Hi,

Please provide a reference for this. I can't help but be suspicious of this since it seems to have a few comments that are against the character of the Prophet pbuh and Islamic law(specifically the part about slaying the elderly).

If you can't reference it, I would recommend you delete it since the authenticity can not be verified.
Reply

Malaikah
05-21-2007, 08:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
And you know this how? There are no stats. So you just write what you thank and present them as facts. :?
Why not? Isn't that exactly what you have been doing?:?
Reply

Sunnih
05-21-2007, 08:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Utterly sensible to ban kaffir from joining a Muslim countries army. made sense in Mohammeds time and still makes sense today.
In the West Muslims can and do join the military. they are people in their own right ..not their religion.

Protection: From what? From the state that levies the Jizya. :D If you dont pay the Jizya you historically were fair game.

Rights better than the wests: :enough!: :X :laugh: :enough!: :X :laugh:
We have seen indeed how well the west treats those muslims who join their armies. Yep this is the western value where the muslims are people in their own rights. Lol what a load of nonsense. Read the western papers and see for yourself.
Reply

Sunnih
05-21-2007, 08:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
1: Done some research on that have we? Interveiwed them about their faith?
I served with muslim soldiers.

2: Where did the showering together naked come from! LOL! Western armies provide everything from Halal rations to seperate religious services.

3: The Inland revenue came round to my house last week and beheaded me because my council tax was late, so i'd agree with you.

4: Because Jizya is a concept that i find racist, intolerant and indicative of what Islamic rule is like. Why are you concerned about my concern.

And lets get back onto topic....My inbox is getting full of "post deleted" messages.
Just remember how the west still treats their black soldiers. How many muslims do you have in the western armies given any positions? Heavy weapons-don't be silly. Ah and being humane to prisoners? Ask the iraqis and by the way Guantanamo is still there. Western values. Indeed.
Reply

Sunnih
05-21-2007, 08:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
For someone that lives in the West, you sure don't know much about the West. :skeleton:
There are so many Muslims in the armed services that they are currently requiting Islamic "chaplains".
You see not all Muslims think OBL is one of the “Good Guys”. :?
Yes and we see how they are accepted with "open arms" by the west. They have become the new slaves. Only cleaner, that's all.
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Sunnih
05-21-2007, 08:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
So the Tax is fair because only Adults are levied with it.

The beheading reference is because non-payment of jizya results according to several muslim scholors, in the "protection", being removed.With fatal consequences. Thats happening right now in Iraq and the Sudan.
The Mafia runs "protection" rackets as well. if I dont pay my taxes...I'll go to jail. I wont die for it. Your above apologist says that Muslims fought and killed muslim-non-payers too. Paying a fine or dying for your religion is wrong wrong wrong by any sense of non-medeivel standards. Sure it was a decree from pre-medeivel times, and we used to hang non-payers of tax in those days too.

Y'Know what? We Moved ON!
In this "modern age" you bomb people for oil. Different indeed.
Reply

Sunnih
05-21-2007, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum

Immigrants are not a Conquered people.
Just humiliated.
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wilberhum
05-21-2007, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
Just remember how the west still treats their black soldiers. How many muslims do you have in the western armies given any positions? Heavy weapons-don't be silly. Ah and being humane to prisoners? Ask the iraqis and by the way Guantanamo is still there. Western values. Indeed.
Isn't this a "Your momma is uglyer than my Momma" response?

How does Black Soldiers relate to jizya?
Reply

barney
05-21-2007, 10:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
In this "modern age" you bomb people for oil. Different indeed.
I assume you mean Iraq. Whats that got to do with Jizya?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/en...net-per-capita

Why not the Gabon then? Or Guinea?

http://www.iraqrevenuewatch.org/repo...rpretation.DOC
http://www.iraqrevenuewatch.org/
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...&type=business

Anyway, out of the small amount of oil that the US gets , its ploughed into reconstruction. The Iraqi Government is in charge of their own oil, the US meanwhile foots a enormous bill to safegaurd it.

Y'know everyone said in '01 that the US was after Afghanistans oil. In 99 when we hit serbia to stop the slaughter of kosovo muslims....we were after Kosovo's Zinc.

Lets take this back to Jizya please, but no matter how much you love the buzzword "Bomb's and oil stealing"...it remains that you know nothing other than the phrase and not the substance.
Reply

barney
05-21-2007, 10:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Isn't this a "Your momma is uglyer than my Momma" response?

How does Black Soldiers relate to jizya?
It's another buzzword with no research. Some people will listen to a properganda speech and just take it as fact without even thinking for themselves.

Jizya at the moment in time is a rarely applied tax. It's not practically problematic.
As a Ideology it is very problematic. All muslims are taught that Islam is one day to be the supreme religion. (all religion is for Allah), So anyone who dissents with this will be liable for Jizya.

This is why it's a important issue to discuss and should be a concern.
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wilberhum
05-21-2007, 11:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
Just humiliated.
Some are, some arn't. But don't forget, comming here was there choice.
Not like being forced to pay a tax because someone else religion has a larger army. :skeleton:
Reply

barney
05-21-2007, 11:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
Hi,

Please provide a reference for this. I can't help but be suspicious of this since it seems to have a few comments that are against the character of the Prophet pbuh and Islamic law(specifically the part about slaying the elderly).

If you can't reference it, I would recommend you delete it since the authenticity can not be verified.
A History of Palestine: 634-1099, Cambridge University Press, 1997, p. 28



This Immigrant thing above is ridiculous. In the UK we have millions of immigrants from Muslim countries. Name one Muslim country that people from the west are baying at the door to get into.

If the wests so hellish...why come?
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Some are, some arn't. But don't forget, comming here was there choice.
Not like being forced to pay a tax because someone else religion has a larger army. :skeleton:
You mean their choice just like the one to whom you say drink poison or I will thow you in the blazing fire. This is choice too. By this stance, then the choice is there too: Pay the Jizyah or fight. :D
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Name one Muslim country that people from the west are baying at the door to get into.
Dubai
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
It's another buzzword with no research. Some people will listen to a properganda speech and just take it as fact without even thinking for themselves.

Jizya at the moment in time is a rarely applied tax. It's not practically problematic.
As a Ideology it is very problematic. All muslims are taught that Islam is one day to be the supreme religion. (all religion is for Allah), So anyone who dissents with this will be liable for Jizya.

This is why it's a important issue to discuss and should be a concern.
Same as the west changing regimes just because they are not in line with the policy of the west.
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 06:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
I assume you mean Iraq. Whats that got to do with Jizya?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/en...net-per-capita

Why not the Gabon then? Or Guinea?

http://www.iraqrevenuewatch.org/repo...rpretation.DOC
http://www.iraqrevenuewatch.org/
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...&type=business

Anyway, out of the small amount of oil that the US gets , its ploughed into reconstruction. The Iraqi Government is in charge of their own oil, the US meanwhile foots a enormous bill to safegaurd it.

Y'know everyone said in '01 that the US was after Afghanistans oil. In 99 when we hit serbia to stop the slaughter of kosovo muslims....we were after Kosovo's Zinc.

Lets take this back to Jizya please, but no matter how much you love the buzzword "Bomb's and oil stealing"...it remains that you know nothing other than the phrase and not the substance.
Bombing for oil was for: "we used to hang non-payers of tax in those days too". So the point was: In those days you used to hang people for not paying taxes now you bomb for oil.

As for the oil the US gets: First it is not only for getting oil rather the key factor is about controling oil. Second: It is not far back when the rest of the coalition had extensive discussions about the spoils of war. Declared such in almost every newspaper have you forgoten it already?!

As for re-construction. Lol. Do you live on earth?! Have you not heard and read anything?:?

Afganistan was not for oil but for other purposes and seeing that you mention oil in that relation, you should recall the plans for the pipeline to run through Afganistan.

As for Kosovo: They did not want an example of Bosnia again with muslim fighters gathering together as they did in Bosnia. As for zinc, lol in Kosovo there is URANIUM if you did not know about that.

As for knowing the phrases and substances, we see indeed how much you know.:statisfie
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 07:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Isn't this a "Your momma is uglyer than my Momma" response?

How does Black Soldiers relate to jizya?
No it is more: Look into the mirror. You acuse me of your own crime.
Reply

wilberhum
05-22-2007, 07:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
No it is more: Look into the mirror. You acuse me of your own crime.
I resent that. I have never charged anyone Jizya. :D :D :D :D
Reply

Sunnih
05-22-2007, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I resent that. I have never charged anyone Jizya. :D :D :D :D
How can you charge Jizyah. You are only a dhimi, even though you claim to be defiant :D :D :D :D :D

Now read what I said in the context of what we were discussing when I made that comment. Sure you know better than that don't you?:?
Reply

wilberhum
05-22-2007, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
How can you charge Jizyah. You are only a dhimi, even though you claim to be defiant :D :D :D :D :D

Now read what I said in the context of what we were discussing when I made that comment. Sure you know better than that don't you?:?
No you just want to change the subject with "your mamma is uglier" responses. The subject is jizya. No matter how you sugar coat it, it is immoral by any non-Muslim standard.

Dhimi is as directory term and carries the same concepts as the “N” word. It labels people inferior just like Dalit. It is part of a cast system where Muslims place them selves at the top and make everyone else socially and legally inferior. You may think it is from god but every non-Muslim will conceder the source is from a different direction.

You advocate a system that might have been better than average a thousand years ago. Notice I said “Might”. The problem is that it isn’t a thousand years ago. Societies have changed. Slavery is illegal. Beating your wife is considered a crime. Secular countries have emerged where laws can not be based on gender, religion, race, etc. Whether you like it or not that is what non-Muslims want. So until you conquer the other 80% of the world, your theocracy will gain no further ground. I personally think it will decline till it no longer exists. But then that is just my opinion.

I find it amazing that in this day and age anyone can be so blinded by there own self worth that they think others would be glad to subject themselves to you. As people of the world struggle for equality, you struggle for superiority.

On 09-19-2006 I started a poll “Who wants to live in a theocracy?”. Only Muslims chose a theocracy. Some Muslims and all non-Muslims chose a secular government. The point being not one single non-Muslim chose a theocracy, not even a theocracy based on there own religion.

It is 2007; join the new millennium, the old one is gone.
Reply

barney
05-22-2007, 10:44 PM
Actually two millenium dude, we are in the third. :)

However your point addresses the unchanging nature of Islam.
The west developed because it shod State run by Religion. But Islam has changed too. Despite being told not to imitate the Kuffar, Muslim nations have had to do this. A Islamic scholor from the 14th Century wrote, "Damm these infernal frankish devices that I must wear to be able to see", the Ottomans reformed their army on western lines even down to the uniforms and bands. Now I can understand the tactic's and equipment being changed for modern western design....but why the uniforms? Why copy something like tunics and braiding when traditional Turkish uniforms were just as practical? Moving on to more modern times, Muslim music is westernised, the ummah have adopted TV when it is something that is strongly arguable against in islamic law, the internet allows males to speak to females with anonyminity yet thats adopted too..Even in the middle east, the professional classes wear western suits rather than Arabic dress, beards are shaved off, the list is totally endless.

Muslims see this change as Shirk, there is strong resentment of it and in recent years the backlash is leading to more and more Muslims who were progressing along western lines to start wearing Hijab around western citys, overtly praying in public and getting back to core values. They see imitation of the Kuffar and hate it, and yet resent it as they can see the benifits of human progress. How this sits with Islamic scholars is the reason for much of the problems we see today.

If the west was to get back to core values we would regress the same way.
Reply

جوري
05-23-2007, 06:37 AM
lol.. I can't chase your posts around-- curiously they grab my attention but not for the right reasons... you appear educated but so dense at the same time, I am not quite sure why-- I am a bit put off about how boastful you are over how well read.. . you don't seem well read from some of your previous posts, -- you claim you know the Quran and the entire bukharis yet simple verses in early chapters elude you as if reading it for the first time.. no bother-- it is proving a waste my time but will post for the Muslim members, as I have lost interest as far as you are concerned-- but must ask what Muslim scientist said this "Damm these infernal frankish devices that I must wear to be able to see? when it was Ibn-Al-Haitham who invented the lenses...in fact a great debt of science is owed to us Muslims



you are too much of a joker man... you can't be that under educated, or do you just wish to mislead our youth? The west has progressed from stealing the wealth of nations and monopolizing them -- by dividing, conquering and stealing... and then advertising.. yes I suppose when you shed your values you can progress...so in that regard you'll get no argument from me...

peace!
Reply

Sunnih
05-23-2007, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum

The point being not one single non-Muslim chose a theocracy, not even a theocracy based on there own religion.
And who cares?
Reply

Sunnih
05-23-2007, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Actually two millenium dude, we are in the third. :)

However your point addresses the unchanging nature of Islam.
The west developed because it shod State run by Religion. But Islam has changed too. Despite being told not to imitate the Kuffar, Muslim nations have had to do this. A Islamic scholor from the 14th Century wrote, "Damm these infernal frankish devices that I must wear to be able to see", the Ottomans reformed their army on western lines even down to the uniforms and bands. Now I can understand the tactic's and equipment being changed for modern western design....but why the uniforms? Why copy something like tunics and braiding when traditional Turkish uniforms were just as practical? Moving on to more modern times, Muslim music is westernised, the ummah have adopted TV when it is something that is strongly arguable against in islamic law, the internet allows males to speak to females with anonyminity yet thats adopted too..Even in the middle east, the professional classes wear western suits rather than Arabic dress, beards are shaved off, the list is totally endless.

Muslims see this change as Shirk, there is strong resentment of it and in recent years the backlash is leading to more and more Muslims who were progressing along western lines to start wearing Hijab around western citys, overtly praying in public and getting back to core values. They see imitation of the Kuffar and hate it, and yet resent it as they can see the benifits of human progress. How this sits with Islamic scholars is the reason for much of the problems we see today.

If the west was to get back to core values we would regress the same way.
You have just shown that your knowledge of Islam is pure ignorance and that you do not have the slightest idea of what islam really is. You have no Idea as to what is allowed and what is not in Islam. But then, you only know what media feeds you.
Reply

wilberhum
05-23-2007, 07:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
And who cares?
Me and 80% of the world.
:skeleton:
Reply

islamirama
05-23-2007, 07:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Me and 80% of the world.
:skeleton:
nah, just you and maybe few of your fitnah buddies.
Reply

Sunnih
05-23-2007, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Me and 80% of the world.
:skeleton:
You live in a very tiny world. :D
Reply

wilberhum
05-23-2007, 07:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
nah, just you and maybe few of your fitnah buddies.
It is always interesting when someone uses a different language in order to descise an insult. Thas OK your inability to recognize the obvious is noted. :D
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- Qatada -
05-23-2007, 07:54 PM
Fitnah means trial, so its nothing offensive. :)
Reply

islamirama
05-23-2007, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Fitnah means trial, so its nothing offensive. :)
or trouble maker:D
Reply

barney
05-28-2007, 06:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
You have just shown that your knowledge of Islam is pure ignorance and that you do not have the slightest idea of what islam really is. You have no Idea as to what is allowed and what is not in Islam. But then, you only know what media feeds you.
So Im wrong that Muslim's have been taking western concepts on board for many many years?
Or i'm wrong that there is growing anger about this?

The media I read is Arab Media mainly.

But thanks for the Nahh,nahh,nahh response which just throws insults instead of refutations.

Purest; I stand visually corrected on lenses, well actually I dont, just the Arab who cursed the frankish devices. Mayby the Byzantines made them for him. Pfft, it was hundreds of years ago, who knows.
But I'm not certain that, just because a Muslim made the first lenses, that the powerhouse of Muslim driven technology and learning is today, so laughably better than western sciences.

The fact remains that when the West seperated state from religion, we progressed. Why is that so hard to swallow?
Reply

Sunnih
05-29-2007, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
So Im wrong that Muslim's have been taking western concepts on board for many many years?
Or i'm wrong that there is growing anger about this?

The media I read is Arab Media mainly.

But thanks for the Nahh,nahh,nahh response which just throws insults instead of refutations.

........
The fact remains that when the West seperated state from religion, we progressed. Why is that so hard to swallow?
I know that you do know better than that. It is just convenient for you to bypass the subject altogether.

As for: The fact remains that when the West seperated state from religion, we progressed. Why is that so hard to swallow?

You have not proven that the progress was because of the separation. World progresses as it goes through time (if by progress you mean the scientific and material developement). If you have in mind the persecution of the scientists and the inquisition - The only thing I can say is: Hello! I am not a Christian so you are barking to the wrong tree.
Reply

wilberhum
05-29-2007, 10:30 PM
You have not proven that the progress was because of the separation.
Of course there is no PROOF! Da. Do we go back in time, rejoin church and state to see how it works out?

In Europe they stoped most of the war and killing each other because of religion. Less war, more progress.

It isn't too tough to work out.
Reply

Sunnih
05-29-2007, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Of course there is no PROOF! Da. Do we go back in time, rejoin church and state to see how it works out?

In Europe they stoped most of the war and killing each other because of religion. Less war, more progress.

It isn't too tough to work out.
Now you are definitely barking to the wrong tree. I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN.

As for going back, you do believe that religion was "invented". How about going back to the "developement" of mankind before religion even was born ( of course from your prospective). Or do you sugest that when man was a monkey (as the "progresists" believe) was very advanced and as soon as the religion was "brought about" it went backward? :omg:
Reply

wilberhum
05-29-2007, 10:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
Now you are definitely barking to the wrong tree. I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN.

As for going back, you do believe that religion was "invented". How about going back to the "developement" of mankind before religion even was born ( of course from your prospective). Or do you sugest that when man was a monkey (as the "progresists" believe) was very advanced and as soon as the religion was "brought about" it went backward? :omg:
When did I ever say you were a Christion? You need to look back. Da :?
You nicely confirm how stupid a request for Proof was. :thumbs_up
"monkey"? More clues to your cluelessness. :?
Reply

Sunnih
05-29-2007, 11:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
When did I ever say you were a Christion? You need to look back. Da :?
You nicely confirm how stupid a request for Proof was. :thumbs_up
"monkey"? More clues to your cluelessness. :?
You mention church and state. That is why I said so.

No. You just showed to everyone how ludicrous your statement has been:D

As for: "monkey"? More clues to your cluelessness

This just shows that discussing with you on these matters any further would be a waste of breath (in this case, a waste of typing).

Your ultimate knowledge is now presented to all. :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:
Reply

wilberhum
05-29-2007, 11:18 PM
Come back when you grow up.
Reply

جوري
05-31-2007, 09:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney

Purest; I stand visually corrected on lenses, well actually I dont, just the Arab who cursed the frankish devices. Mayby the Byzantines made them for him. Pfft, it was hundreds of years ago, who knows.
But I'm not certain that, just because a Muslim made the first lenses, that the powerhouse of Muslim driven technology and learning is today, so laughably better than western sciences.

The fact remains that when the West seperated state from religion, we progressed. Why is that so hard to swallow?
You need to read a few history books, then we can have this discussion... & I'd like a name to go with that "****" especially when it was as you say so many centuries ago when Islam was at its peak. I don't take words at face value, least of which when they come from you ( I don't learn from you, I am not even mildly amused anymore)-- Islam laid the foundation, you'd think you'd show some gratitude?... if the world has seen the mountains it was because they stood on the shoulders of giants.. so they grab hold of the high peaks and let go of the shoulders?.. we all know things that have no legs with collapse in the long run.

why are some things so hard to swallow? I don't know.. Why can't a bezoar be digested? simple---it doesn't belong there. So stop insinuating BS!
Get out of your bubble go travel, it might do you some good... as it stands you bore me!

in closure I believe this quote applies to you

“Those who visit foreign nations,/but who associate only with their own countrymen,/change their climate, but not their customs;/ they see new meridians, but the same men;/and with heads as empty as their pockets,/ return home with traveled bodies, but untraveled minds.” -Colton
peace!
Reply

جوري
05-31-2007, 10:50 PM
Addendum.. When we let go of religion we went backwards.. our state of affairs are quite the converse from the west-- under the Muslim empire we stood strong... whatever applies to the west doesn't apply to the east, we had something that worked and let it go, you had something that didn't and let it go. Current situation is enough of a testament to that!
--If the east didn't have all the civility and charm, your little colonialist island wouldn't have been after its wealth.


Peace!
Reply

Sunnih
06-01-2007, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Come back when you grow up.
I would come back to discuss with you when you grow wiser rather.
Reply

wilberhum
06-01-2007, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sunnih
I would come back to discuss with you when you grow wiser rather.
Maybe I could post 20 smilies to show how mature I am. :skeleton:

Maybe when you get really old, say 22, you will understand.

But I doubt it. :-[
Reply

Sunnih
06-01-2007, 09:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Maybe I could post 20 smilies to show how mature I am. :skeleton:

Maybe when you get really old, say 22, you will understand.

But I doubt it. :-[
You only confirm what I said. You do need to get wiser indeed.

Let me give you a piece of advice: Wisdom is not caracterised by age, nor is age the condition for wisdom. You may grow old but not necessary wise.:omg:
Reply

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