Muslim-Christian differences of opinion

Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.

Good afternoon everybody i'm sorry I never introduced myself and I didn't do to well with filling in the info about myself in registration. If I can I will edit it. Well you have my name but I failed to mention that I'm a Christian.

If you don't mind I would like to just say in response to the claims that my Muslim friends do believe in the original Bible and that it has been changed mostly by paul. The Quran & Allah does not back up this claim as in sura 2:4 allah takes credit for the Quran and sunnah and he also takes full credit for the torah & the Gospels which may I also add has been confirmed by historical findings such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint proving that the words of the Torah, Psalms, and Prophets did not change during the thousand years preceding Islam or in the fourteen hundred years since. And twenty-five thousand New Testament fragments and scrolls dating to more than five hundred years before the earliest surviving Quran testifying that the Gospels remain unaltered.

Godbless you mam'
you asked for the link (here it is, bare in mind that it was from 2004) Oh! and to the question how can Jesus be in Cairo? An attribute of God is a marvelous thing that Only the One True God has, its called Omnipresence. Its being where you are and being where I am at the same time without being more than one God. Its in the Old testament. In Psalm 139:7-12 Where can I go from your spirit? Or where can I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there; if I make my bed in hell, you are there. If I take the wings of the morning and settle at the farthest limits of the sea, even there your hand will lead me, and your right hand hold me fast. If I say, "Surely the darkness will cover me, and the light become night around me," even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is as bright as the day, for darkness and light are both alike to you.

Here is the link REMOVED CONTAINED SOME ANTI-ISLAMIC MATERIAL

May God Bless you all! Amen!!!!

Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.

Salaam/peace;

Bless_the_name said:

.......

God bless you mam'

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------and God bless u , too.

Oh! and to the question how can Jesus be in Cairo? ......

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----Christians believe Jesus (p) will come back in the holy land . Do they also believe that before the second coming , Jesus (p) will ( not in kid's dreams ) but ' physically ' return back daily ( for 2 weeks ) ?

you asked for the link ....

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---- the link…… is maintained by........ as a service to the Christian church.......looks like a publicity site , not a news site. I visited it before mod could deleled the link

..... no link of any Cairo newspapers , no photographs of the 2 babies or the killer husband.




BTW , why they returned back to the same grave ? Yes , it's permissible to use a very old grave to bury another dead body but it was not a old grave.....only 2 weeks old.



some more "reliable" stories from the link u gave.



A Muslim's Journey to God

---what does it mean ? IF a person does not believe in God , s/he is not a Muslim at all.



Seeing as all the signs were pointing specifically to a Christian God

---hahahaha....really funny comment. So , there is a Christian God , a Muslim God , a Jewish God , a Hindu God ??????


for ur kind information , God is only one. Allah is the Arabic name for God Almighty. Arab Christians say Allah & it does not make them Muslims.


comment from any Christian pl. about the following story. I did not read the whole story. Does Bible say that it's possible for other to raise from the dead ?


Resurrection of Pastor Daniel

Pastor Ekechukwu was from a city called Onitsha (Nigeria), where he was the pastor of Power Chapel Evangelical Church



.....was dead for at least 42 hours, visited heaven and hell during the time of his physical death, and was raised from the dead between 3:50 P.M. and 5:15 P.M. on Sunday

Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.

Muslim Woman said:

Salaam/peace;


------and God bless u , too.








----Christians believe Jesus (p) will come back in the holy land . Do they also believe that before the second coming , Jesus (p) will ( not in kid's dreams ) but ' physically ' return back daily ( for 2 weeks ) ?





---- the link…… is maintained by........ as a service to the Christian church.......looks like a publicity site , not a news site. I visited it before mod could deleled the link

..... no link of any Cairo newspapers , no photographs of the 2 babies or the killer husband.




BTW , why they returned back to the same grave ? Yes , it's permissible to use a very old grave to bury another dead body but it was not a old grave.....only 2 weeks old.



some more "reliable" stories from the link u gave.



A Muslim's Journey to God

---what does it mean ? IF a person does not believe in God , s/he is not a Muslim at all.



Seeing as all the signs were pointing specifically to a Christian God

---hahahaha....really funny comment. So , there is a Christian God , a Muslim God , a Jewish God , a Hindu God ??????


for ur kind information , God is only one. Allah is the Arabic name for God Almighty. Arab Christians say Allah & it does not make them Muslims.


comment from any Christian pl. about the following story. I did not read the whole story. Does Bible say that it's possible for other to raise from the dead ?


Resurrection of Pastor Daniel

Pastor Ekechukwu was from a city called Onitsha (Nigeria), where he was the pastor of Power Chapel Evangelical Church



.....was dead for at least 42 hours, visited heaven and hell during the time of his physical death, and was raised from the dead between 3:50 P.M. and 5:15 P.M. on Sunday

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What to tell you? I don't find the story very reliable either, for some of the very reasons you gave. Of course I could site a dozen, or perhaps a hundred more. But then, you could site just as many "miraculous" occurances to "prove" that Allah was calling people to Islam. A friend of mine once sent me pictures of such "proofs" such as a honeycomb in which the honey was formed in the shape of , and another where a banyan tree appeared to be kneeling in prayer toward Mecca. I don't think these things really prove anything, whether "proofs" of Islam or "proofs" of Christianity. Many are later found out to be hoaxes either staged events or purely fiction. Others have very natural explanations. And some are beyond any explanation.

Last week I met a man who proceeded to tell me the story of his death. He had been in an auto accident and pronounced dead by the paramedics at the scene. Over half an hour after this, one of his friends came upon the scene and claims that he felt called of God to pray for the then unknown man in the car. The paramedics told him it was too late, but he insisted and wanted to pray while laying hands on the body. Finally the paramedics relented and the man started to pray. When this friend touch the man who was "dead", his body was already beginning to feel cold. But as he prayed he claims two things happened, that he felt warmth returning to the body and that he felt a pulse. They called the paramedics back, took him unconscious to the hospital and there did surgery that ultimately saved his life. The man himself who was supposedly dead, told me that from his perspective he was totally unaware of any of this, only that he suddenly found himself in what he believes was heaven and standing outside the pearly gates. Now, I don't know what to make of such a story. I can't deny that these are the experiences of these people. They experienced them, I did not. But, I don't have to put the same interpretation on their experience that they do. Maybe he was really dead and in heaven. Or maybe the paramedics got it wrong and he was in some sort of near death state and is just lucky someone else came along and felt a pulse. I don't know. If these events only happened among Christians, or among Muslims, or among Hindus then perhaps they would prove something, but they happen all over the world. And I think we each bring to them our own very personal interpretation of what was happening at the time. I suppose that God is big enough that all could be true. In the meantime, I remain a skeptic of all the "proofs" there are for God, even as I believe in him.

I'm not saying that the miraculous doesn't happen. Years ago I knew a woman with one leg longer than the other, it was a major problem for her. She prayed and in a period of less than 6 months the short leg grew to match the longer one in length. Now, I think that was a true miracle. Yet, more recenlty I had the daughter of another friend dealing with the same problem and despite prayers there was no miracle and they had to do surgery. Does one thing prove God, and the other disprove it? I do not think so. I just think that God moves in ways that we don't fully understand, yet God knows best.

Likewise, a banyan tree appearing to be kneeling in prayer toward Mecca is just that, something that appears to us, but may not be God moving at all. However, if it sustains your faith, then by all means let it sustain your faith. But don't expect it to prove anything to someone else who is not predisposed to believe.




As to some of your other questions and comments:

1) Jesus can certainly make his presence known in more than one place at a time simply because he is God and is omnipresent. As I read the story it is the presence of Jesus, which is perceived in human form, I don't think they are saying it is actually the physical body of Jesus (unless I misread the story).

2) Most Christians do believe in the physical return of Jesus at the end of the world. Some Christians suppose that to be to the temple mount in Jerusalem. But the exact location is not something that all Christians would say could be known in advance. I've never heard anyone talk about his returning daily for a period of time. Generally, those who believe in his return believe in his return which then ushers in the last days. There is no series of multiple returnings.



3)

Seeing as all the signs were pointing specifically to a Christian God

---hahahaha....really funny comment. So , there is a Christian God , a Muslim God , a Jewish God , a Hindu God ??????

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I agree, sometimes people speak nonsense when they should know better.



4) Can people be raised from the dead?
Certainly. The Bible has many stories where people were raised from the dead. Both in the Tankah and in the New Testament. In addition to the resurrection of Jesus, here is a partial list of others who were brought back to life:
1 Kings 17:17-23
2 Kings 4:32-37
Luke 7:12-15
Luke 8:49-55
John 11:1-44
Acts 9:37-40
Acts 20:9-12
Furthermore, Jesus told his disciples (and I believe it applies to all followers, not just the original disciples) that they would do these things (the miracles that he did) and even greater things (see John 14:12). So, since Jesus raised people from the dead there is no reason to think that it cannot continue to happen today.

Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.

Salaam/peace;

Grace Seeker said:

A friend of mine once sent me pictures ......where a banyan tree appeared to be kneeling in prayer toward Mecca.

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A tree in the posture of Islamic prayer

Place: Near Sidney, Australia

Hehe , I must admit that I liked that picture…..there is another one……….many trees showing an Arabic verse , there is no god but God ( Allah). Did u see that ? kay:

if u have any miracle image & mod does not object , pl. post that says Jesus (p) is God . I would love to see that :smile:

Last week I met a man who proceeded to tell me the story of his death....he suddenly found himself in what he believes was heaven and standing outside the pearly gates.

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---sounds interesting...i wish , i may have such experience. Can u ask him to describe more ?

She prayed and in a period of less than 6 months the short leg grew to match the longer one in length.

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----are u sure , she never took any medicine or some other medical treatment ? Well , i think , miracles do happen if not in that case ,in other cases.

Yet, more recenlty I had the daughter of another friend dealing with the same problem and despite prayers there was no miracle and they had to do surgery

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.


--- sorry to hear that . I guess ,doctors do pray to God NOT to cure everyone .....they will all become jobless ( sorry , just joking ).

Most Christians do believe in the physical return of Jesus at the end of the world.

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---why most Christians ? If there is a specific verse , then all are supposed to believe in it.

.... So, since Jesus raised people from the dead there is no reason to think that it cannot continue to happen today.

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As a Muslim , I do believe that Jesus (p) performed many miracles including gave life to death by the permission of God.


Regarding Quran , he made birds out of clay & they started flying ….though in one article explanation was like that it’s turning disbelievers to believers.

here is the verse:

Surah 3. The Family Of 'Imran, The House Of 'Imran

And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message):


"'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave:


And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses.

Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;




About forgiving adultery by Jesus (p) & a Biblical verse that says heaven is not for those sinners who are gay & commit adultery....how do u explain the matter ?

It seems to me that some Christians are using the story as an excuse to do that major sin .


As a Muslim , it hurts me when i see someone is using Jesus (p) for these horrible immoral acts....how can i tell them that their holy book Bible & Jesus (p ) really did n't approve these ?

Let's forget about punishment in this earth , what about the life hereafter ? Can it be true that really Jesus (p) assured Christians that there is no punishment for any sins ?

yakkkkk.....am i asking u toooooooooooooo many questions ? avoid those u think are not very imp.

Thanks for ur patience

question to the christians

God is all knowing, all wise, all powerful. He knows everything about his creation, future, past, present, and simultaneously. When he created the big bang he was independent of it, yet he knew everything that would occur in it. That means when God decides on something he doesn't make mistakes doing it. For He is perfect in every possible way. In the Christian’s view, when God created humans he was unaware of how vulnerable they are to sins. So, he had to bring his own son to die for humanity sins. Surely, God is all knowing, all wise, and being all knowing and all wise he would have knew that humans would commit multiple sins and definitely more then ONE. It doesn’t make sense to me that God would suffer for humanities sins when we are bound to sin, surely were not sinless like angels. We humans obviously are not perfect and do make mistakes. It also doesn’t make sense to me why God would bring down his only son to save humanity? Why can’t he just forgive them when they ask for forgiveness? Is their some kind of law preventing god?!?!



In Islam, we believe that God purposely created us humans weak and vulnerable to mistakes so we may repent for our sins. God knows that we are different then angels, we have freewill. Every one will be held accountable for his/her sins on the Day of Judgment and no one else. Their will be complete justice. Everything you ever done evil/good, will be acknowledged and justified. Their will be nothing to hide. The ones who decided to do evil will be held accountable for their actions no one else.

Take for example a teacher and his students. Assuming Child A does something ghastly and ends up hurting a fellow student the teacher is logically supposed to punish Child A. Accusing a completely random child and to discipline an entirely different child for child As actions wouldn’t fall into the realm of logic. This is the same for Christianities view. We as humanity have sinned therefore Jesus is punished. He is punished for our sins which we have committed with our free will, and determination. He is punished because of my murder. This logic is absurd and preposterous. How will humanity learn? How will they be ready to be accountable for there sins on the Day of Reckoning when they are expecting there “Savior” to come and be crucified for them.

Christianities weakness lies in its failure to take accountability for its own actions. The lack of logic proves it to be insensible.

Re: Questions about Christians. Requesting answers from Christians.

Woodrow said:

My question:

How many Christian denominations are there and does each have different beliefs?

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Hi

There are too many in the USA, something like 28,000. This is the product of an open society and lets be honost, satin is very smart. As I have seen here the diffrences are mainly in interpritaions. We Hope as Christains tho that we all are Bible based. Not all teachers are of God, in ours and your religions.

AB

Re: question to the christians

Allah-creation said:

God is all knowing, all wise, all powerful. He knows everything about his creation, future, past, present, and simultaneously. When he created the big bang he was independent of it, yet he knew everything that would occur in it. That means when God decides on something he doesn't make mistakes doing it. For He is perfect in every possible way. In the Christian’s view, when God created humans he was unaware of how vulnerable they are to sins. So, he had to bring his own son to die for humanity sins. Surely, God is all knowing, all wise, and being all knowing and all wise he would have knew that humans would commit multiple sins and definitely more then ONE. It doesn’t make sense to me that God would suffer for humanities sins when we are bound to sin, surely were not sinless like angels. We humans obviously are not perfect and do make mistakes. It also doesn’t make sense to me why God would bring down his only son to save humanity? Why can’t he just forgive them when they ask for forgiveness? Is their some kind of law preventing god?!?!



In Islam, we believe that God purposely created us humans weak and vulnerable to mistakes so we may repent for our sins. God knows that we are different then angels, we have freewill. Every one will be held accountable for his/her sins on the Day of Judgment and no one else. Their will be complete justice. Everything you ever done evil/good, will be acknowledged and justified. Their will be nothing to hide. The ones who decided to do evil will be held accountable for their actions no one else.

Take for example a teacher and his students. Assuming Child A does something ghastly and ends up hurting a fellow student the teacher is logically supposed to punish Child A. Accusing a completely random child and to discipline an entirely different child for child As actions wouldn’t fall into the realm of logic. This is the same for Christianities view. We as humanity have sinned therefore Jesus is punished. He is punished for our sins which we have committed with our free will, and determination. He is punished because of my murder. This logic is absurd and preposterous. How will humanity learn? How will they be ready to be accountable for there sins on the Day of Reckoning when they are expecting there “Savior” to come and be crucified for them.

Christianities weakness lies in its failure to take accountability for its own actions. The lack of logic proves it to be insensible.

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I would like to state something here... idk if this is the right time or place but this is just what I believe...

well what if Child A did it the act because it was the way he was made?

No Christians dont sin just to be sinning. we actually do follow the rules in a sense.. just that doesn't everyone follow the rules... like Hindus, Buddist, and dont you follow the rules? the difference in Christianity and the rest of them is that we believe that there is a mediator who mediates for us when we do commit a sin. take Peter from the Bible Jesus knew what he would do just in a few hours before Jesus death... now what peter did was a sin and it is part of him being human... that he did it... but the Love he had for His God caused Him to repent it wasn't anything out of I have to be good...

I believe that when Moses went apon the mount and came down with 2 tablets that it was a picture that Moses went on tob to have quiet time with God and I always say that you act like the one who you hang out with the most... and so Moses came down with the law written on his heart...


Proverbs 3:3
Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart.

2 Corinthians 3:3
3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

and I believe Jesus coming down to earth was not only to save us from our sin... But also to show that he wants to have a relationship with US imperfect people... and dont tell me that if your not loved you will still want to do something nice for that person... because if you are human then you would want to infact shun him away because you dont love them.. see Love compells me to act.. and I believe that as you act the Holy Spirit moves along side you as a companion helping you and guiding you through every situation and thought...

see I believe that God ordains all and everything happens by God and through God... some may say that I may sin because of my free will.... well I dont agree with that.... I think once a person starts to have that relationship with God he becomes more open and his eyes understands that God is the one who is ultimately involved in everything there is nothing and anything that doesn't have his start.. everything comes through him... free will may exist through a non spiritual person but I believe that God is ultimately the one who does everything... he even allows me to sin from time to time because he is using that to teach me and others.. now that is just my conviction right now... I understand that I shouldn't allow my beliefs to control me but I control my beliefs...

Re: question to the christians

Fr0mHim said:

I would like to state something here... idk if this is the right time or place but this is just what I believe...

well what if Child A did it the act because it was the way he was made?

No Christians dont sin just to be sinning. we actually do follow the rules in a sense.. just that doesn't everyone follow the rules... like Hindus, Buddist, and dont you follow the rules? the difference in Christianity and the rest of them is that we believe that there is a mediator who mediates for us when we do commit a sin. take Peter from the Bible Jesus knew what he would do just in a few hours before Jesus death... now what peter did was a sin and it is part of him being human... that he did it... but the Love he had for His God caused Him to repent it wasn't anything out of I have to be good...

I believe that when Moses went apon the mount and came down with 2 tablets that it was a picture that Moses went on tob to have quiet time with God and I always say that you act like the one who you hang out with the most... and so Moses came down with the law written on his heart...


Proverbs 3:3
Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart.

2 Corinthians 3:3
3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

and I believe Jesus coming down to earth was not only to save us from our sin... But also to show that he wants to have a relationship with US imperfect people... and dont tell me that if your not loved you will still want to do something nice for that person... because if you are human then you would want to infact shun him away because you dont love them.. see Love compells me to act.. and I believe that as you act the Holy Spirit moves along side you as a companion helping you and guiding you through every situation and thought...

see I believe that God ordains all and everything happens by God and through God... some may say that I may sin because of my free will.... well I dont agree with that.... I think once a person starts to have that relationship with God he becomes more open and his eyes understands that God is the one who is ultimately involved in everything there is nothing and anything that doesn't have his start.. everything comes through him... free will may exist through a non spiritual person but I believe that God is ultimately the one who does everything... he even allows me to sin from time to time because he is using that to teach me and others.. now that is just my conviction right now... I understand that I shouldn't allow my beliefs to control me but I control my beliefs...

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I'm going to attempt to answer a few of these points you made to the best of my ability. Astagfirullah.

see I believe that God ordains all and everything happens by God and through God... some may say that I may sin because of my free will.... well I dont agree with that.... I think once a person starts to have that relationship with God he becomes more open and his eyes understands that God is the one who is ultimately involved in everything there is nothing and anything that doesn't have his start.. everything comes through him... free will may exist through a non spiritual person but I believe that God is ultimately the one who does everything... he even allows me to sin from time to time because he is using that to teach me and others.. now that is just my conviction right now... I understand that I shouldn't allow my beliefs to control me but I control my beliefs...

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Are you sure you are not Muslim?

That is a reasonably accurate description of what I believe as a Muslim.

and I believe Jesus coming down to earth was not only to save us from our sin... But also to show that he wants to have a relationship with US imperfect people... and dont tell me that if your not loved you will still want to do something nice for that person... because if you are human then you would want to infact shun him away because you dont love them.. see Love compells me to act.. and I believe that as you act the Holy Spirit moves along side you as a companion helping you and guiding you through every situation and thought...

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This will be one of our areas of disagreement. I do not believe Isa(as) came down to Earth and that he was born a whom by a miraculous birth that was the will of Allah(swt) As a Muslim, I have great love for Isa(as) he was given the true message to spread. His teachings only remain in part and the Injil that He(as) was given was ignored and only the accounts of Human witnesses remain, but like all human words they are subject to error and change.
As a Muslim I have only love for Allah(swt) and as his servant I can only worship and serve Allah(swt) alone.

Proverbs 3:3
Let love and faithfulness never leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart.

2 Corinthians 3:3
3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Click to expand...

I can only agree to Biblical quotes that are also reflected in the Qur'an. This will be another area of difficulty, as I do not believe the Bible is the Authentic word of Allah(swt) and is only human remnants of what was given to the people. Subject to error and corruption.

No Christians dont sin just to be sinning. we actually do follow the rules in a sense.. just that doesn't everyone follow the rules... like Hindus, Buddist, and dont you follow the rules? the difference in Christianity and the rest of them is that we believe that there is a mediator who mediates for us when we do commit a sin. take Peter from the Bible Jesus knew what he would do just in a few hours before Jesus death... now what peter did was a sin and it is part of him being human... that he did it... but the Love he had for His God caused Him to repent it wasn't anything out of I have to be good...

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I do my best to abide by the Pillars of Islam, It is my desire to serve Allah(swt) to the best of my ability and not stray from the straight path Allah(swt) has given us to follow. As Allah's(swt) servant I ask for guidance only from my Master(swt) and accept full responsability for following his commands.

well what if Child A did it the act because it was the way he was made?

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You state Child A. We do not believe Allah(swt) will hold a child accountable for that which he is not capable of understanding.

Re: question to the christians

I'm going to attempt to answer a few of these points you made to the best of my ability. Astagfirullah.




Are you sure you are not Muslim?

That is a reasonably accurate description of what I believe as a Muslim.

mmm.. well I honestly do have that ability



This will be one of our areas of disagreement. I do not believe Isa(as) came down to Earth and that he was born a whom by a miraculous birth that was the will of Allah(swt) As a Muslim, I have great love for Isa(as) he was given the true message to spread. His teachings only remain in part and the Injil that He(as) was given was ignored and only the accounts of Human witnesses remain, but like all human words they are subject to error and change.
As a Muslim I have only love for Allah(swt) and as his servant I can only worship and serve Allah(swt) alone.

well Im not saying that you don't love Allah by no means am I saying that... what im saying is that God on His part came down and showed the heart of the Himself to humans who like you said got stuff erred and corrupted... (one of the reasons I would love to learn greek, and arabic).....

I can only agree to Biblical quotes that are also reflected in the Qur'an. This will be another area of difficulty, as I do not believe the Bible is the Authentic word of Allah(swt) and is only human remnants of what was given to the people. Subject to error and corruption.

well I would say that I dont see it that way personally... I personally would like to know and understand the Qur'an. I believe that anything whether it be spiritual christian or secular can speak to me about the TRUE God.. (not saying that what I believe in is right... dont read me wrong... but what im saying is that if God/Allah/ or whoever created the universe then like a child to its mother... you can see the reflection of God in all things... but like you said most people cant see that because we do infact live in a fallen world..

if I have you wrong man please tell me!!! brow

I do my best to abide by the Pillars of Islam, It is my desire to serve Allah(swt) to the best of my ability and not stray from the straight path Allah(swt) has given us to follow. As Allah's(swt) servant I ask for guidance only from my Master(swt) and accept full responsability for following his commands.

man im with you right here I honestly am with you!!!! :thumbs_up man one of my favorite books in the Bible is Hebrews and I am just now reading it to learn about Faith and Hope... and well the Hebrew writer compares this world as a race or it could have been paul in one of his books... but the Hebrew writer atleast compares this world as a athletic even... and well as myself I try to run this race... I try to obey the 10 commandments but while im running this race I keep triping and falling... but I get up and I start running to the goal I strive to the end to get to God... but I do know that while my desire is to do good I am stumped by my desires and sins... which leads me away from God and well as Gods child I also ask for guidance.... but in the jift of that I am not giving up because God has promised his love and companionship...
"never will I leave you and never will I forsake you"

well I guess I do agree with you... hope you see that...

You state Child A. We do not believe Allah(swt) will hold a child accountable for that which he is not capable of understanding.

well I dont mean that... what I mean is from the story Child A did something wrong which obviously knew right from wrong... but it is by Child As weakness that Child A did...

let me ask you a question woodrow..

1. person is always good... maybe a few sin spots here and there but nothing drastically to bad like the adulterous man... this person goes to worship everytime.. this person though good doesn't feel compelled to tell anyone of his mistakes.. his path is straight... he seems to want a relationship with the creator

2. person is always bad... but this person seems to have that question in his heart is there something more out there... his mistakes make him more vulnerable to being crushed down by love and acceptance.... this person is open to his mistakes...this person is constantly going up and down.. this person wavers in worship... this person doesn't seem to want a relationship at all with his creator


which person would Allah give glory, grace, and mercy too....

Re: question to the christians

Allah-creation said:

It also doesn’t make sense to me why God would bring down his only son to save humanity? Why can’t he just forgive them when they ask for forgiveness? Is their some kind of law preventing god?!?!

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Not sure whether you meant this as a real question or a rhetorical comment. But, I'll respond just in case you were really asking.


There are many things about God that don't make sense to me, a human being. My guess is that we could find those questions in virually every religion and even more when people have no religion. But, then, one of the lessons we learn from Job is that while it is OK to ask questions of God, it is another thing to call God into question. His ways are not our ways and he does things for reasons that may indeed be unexplainable to humans. I can't figure out why God would give his message to one man in the 7th century when he could have written his message for all mankind to have read in the clouds. But, he didn't.

It is part of our understanding of how God ordered the world which he created that sacrifice is required in payment of sin. This is something which Christianity received from it's parent faith of Judaism. It is a part of God's justice system that sin extracts a cost, and to me it makes sense because sin means that we are at enmity with God and thus seperates us from God. As you say, God could have simply allowed for a person to say, "I'm sorry" and that would be enough. But that simply isn't how he ordered the world, from the very beginning with see the importance of blood sacrifice as an atonement for sin, it is one of the horrific truths of both Judaism and Christianity. It is rituallized through the offering of sheep, goats, and bulls in the Jewish faith, but these do not really absolve one completely of sin, for the sin nature remains unchanged. One of the declarations of Christianity is that Christ's sacrifice on the cross is a one time and for all sacrifice. By incorporating that sacrifice into one's life -- Christians baptism is a baptism into the death and resurrection of Jesus -- one's sin nature is itself displaced by God's presence in one via the Holy Spirit.

Re: question to the christians

Woodrow said:

I'm going to attempt to answer a few of these points you made to the best of my ability. Astagfirullah.


This will be one of our areas of disagreement. I do not believe Isa(as) came down to Earth and that he was born a whom by a miraculous birth that was the will of Allah(swt) As a Muslim, I have great love for Isa(as) he was given the true message to spread. His teachings only remain in part and the Injil that He(as) was given was ignored and only the accounts of Human witnesses remain, but like all human words they are subject to error and change.
As a Muslim I have only love for Allah(swt) and as his servant I can only worship and serve Allah(swt) alone.

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If you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin birth and was born of the Holy spirit (Divine DNA). Why do you find it hard to believe that he was divine ?

What other prophet was born in this special way ? And you still believe that he is just another prophet :?

There is simply no proof for your claim that the Bible has been changed to the point that you (muslims) suggest. Only speculation.

The Bible is very clear that "there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood." Because "the wages of sin is death".
This is consistent across the entire Bible. Judaism and Christianity.
The Quran denies this.

Also God foretold the Messiah's life in the OT and Jesus confirmed it in the NT. He confirmed the entire OT he upheld it's laws he believed it to be accurate. So we believe Jesus and Paul because they knew things that even the most learned scholars of Judaism didn't know.
Jesus only spoke the truth.
So we are sure the Bible is true and Jesus is true.

Whereas the Quran does not confirm the OT or the NT, it confirms no prophecy. It is almost a complete turn around of the Christian message back to the Judaism of 3000 years ago, with laws and rituals.

What reason is there to believe in Muhammad (Quran) ?

Not meant to be rude, just an honest opinion of what kind of impression that Christians get when they look at the Quran and Muhammad's life.

YEh

Re: question to the christians

I need to go somewhere so I will keep it short, Nice to meet you YEh and hope to have much fruitful discussion,

YEh said:

If you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin birth and was born of the Holy spirit (Divine DNA). Why do you find it hard to believe that he was divine ?

What other prophet was born in this special way ? And you still believe that he is just another prophet :?

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We all life different lives, Abraham was the friend of God, Aadam was made by God's hands, Jesus was a word of God, be and he was, different miracles are not what make us different what makes us better or worse is how we react to them.

A person might be cured of blindness but he might be an athiest and he might still reject God and at the same time there might be a Christian who prays and prays to see but never does, am I sure you agree this does not mean the Athiest is better inthe sight of God than the Christian.

YEh said:

There is simply no proof for your claim that the Bible has been changed to the point that you (muslims) suggest. Only speculation.

The Bible is very clear that "there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood." Because "the wages of sin is death".
This is consistent across the entire Bible. Judaism and Christianity.
The Quran denies this.

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There is proof, and I will be willing to share once I get back as it involves much time.

And as for your statement then I disagree, there is not a continous message in the Bible, rather, if one thinks there is then one will interpret the scripture to make it sound like ther is but if you are open minded again I can later quote you verses.


I will reply again later on insha'Allah,

Eesa

Re: question to the christians

Al Habeshi said:

I need to go somewhere so I will keep it short, Nice to meet you YEh and hope to have much fruitful discussion,

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Me too.

We all life different lives, Abraham was the friend of God, Aadam was made by God's hands, Jesus was a word of God, be and he was, different miracles are not what make us different what makes us better or worse is how we react to them.

A person might be cured of blindness but he might be an athiest and he might still reject God and at the same time there might be a Christian who prays and prays to see but never does, am I sure you agree this does not mean the Athiest is better inthe sight of God than the Christian.

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You didn't seem to answer the question I was asking.

There is proof, and I will be willing to share once I get back as it involves much time.

And as for your statement then I disagree, there is not a continous message in the Bible, rather, if one thinks there is then one will interpret the scripture to make it sound like ther is but if you are open minded again I can later quote you verses.

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But you cannot make that comment because, and now i'm assuming of course, you haven't read any book of the Bible in their entirety.
You see i'm trying to nip it in the bud, so to speak. When I usually discuss this topic. We discuss different statements made by Jesus in the NT. But that is simply not enough to understand the arcaic language used in translating accient greek.

Unless you have read at least one gospel and a letter of Paul's fully in context. And look at the cross references made to the OT prophecies. You cannot begin to understand Jesus's message.

If you have not honestly read the Bible to understand with honest intention and no pre-conceived idea's. Someone will not be able to see Jesus's clear message. It's a very complicated book well it is God's book. I guess he wanted us to use minds to test his word.
I believe the Bible has so many cross-references to the old and new testaments that 40 different authors over a period of approx. 4000 years that their is no way it could be written by man. Man could not write such a book that is so interconnected. So that we might understand God's nature of love and forgiveness.

I mean the NT explains even the spiritual meanings of the sacrifice of Isacc, the flood, the protection of the Jews by the blood of the passover lamb on the doorpost, the bread that was given to Moses in the desert, the wilderness, the significance of the length of days used for creation, to fast, for the end times.

I have read the biography of Muhammad. And a fair bit of the Quran with commentary. There is no mention of the significance of these events in the Quran or traditions. Only summarised versions of the Biblical stories. Which are a little different to Biblical stories.

So the only hard evidence that I have heard to this

so called corruption

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is that archeologists have found older texts of the NT which do not contain the last few verses of Mark's gospel. They were just a copiest error which was added by a scholar to write notes about doctrines of the NT. Well it has been copied many times so that it can preserved. So it was a mistake not corruption of Jesus's message.

The only other evidence is that some ages and dates and generally numbers are not exactly the same when there is more than one account of events.

This is just amazing that these are the only errors found in the Bible. Which has been copied many times. For about 2000 years.
It has been preserved to an incredible degree for such accient document's.

I will reply again later on insha'Allah,

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Also any proofs that were originally given by Ahmad Dheedat. I think we can all safely say have been debunked over and over again.

- Muhammad in the Bible.

There is so much evidence for every statement referring to Jesus, being the person mentioned not Muhammad. That in the book "The Choice".
Ahmad Dheedat simply says that because Jesus was divine and that Moses and Muhammad were human according to Christians, he is most like Moses.
He does not mention that any man could be the prophet according to that logic. :?

Eesa

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Please do not continue to reply unless you have met the conditions I have mentioned above.

Thanks.

YEh

And anything about the trinity being 3 and not 1 God.

Is simply false. Please don't bother with this argument.

We believe there is only One God.
We don't know how God exists or what he looks like or is formed.
But God does exist as the Holy Trinity according to the Bible.

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YEh

YEh said:

And anything about the trinity being 3 and not 1 God.

Is simply false. Please don't bother with this argument.



YEh

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The Bible makes no mention of a Holy Trinity, although it does make mention of the three elements that Christians call a Trinity, if you understand what I'm saying. God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are indeed mentioned throughout the Bible, and as a way of explaining this concept the early Christian church coined the term "Holy Trinity".

Re: question to the christians

YEh said:

Please do not continue to reply unless you have met the conditions I have mentioned above.

Thanks.

YEh

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Your views might indeed by completely orthodox as far as Christianity goes. Your practice of how to treat others seems to be lacking what I understand as the standard modeled for us to follow by Christ.

My experience is that not everyone here will agree with us Christians as far as our beliefs, that is not surprising on a Muslim forum, but the vast majority will engage in respectful discussion of those differences if we will present ourselves as persons open to to hearing all sides. Among those most sincere in his own non-Christian faith, and yet willing to discuss what it is that Christians believe is Al Habeshi. I'm embarassed that a brother or sister in Christ might actually say to another "don't reply unless you meet my conditions." I don't think we get to set conditions on this board, or in real life. The moderators set the conditions here, and God sets them in life. I hope you don't think you are either.

Keltoi said:

The Bible makes no mention of a Holy Trinity, although it does make mention of the three elements that Christians call a Trinity, if you understand what I'm saying. God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are indeed mentioned throughout the Bible, and as a way of explaining this concept the early Christian church coined the term "Holy Trinity".

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Yeh I know I don't think I said anything that contradicts the Bible.

Re: question to the christians

Grace Seeker said:

Your views might indeed by completely orthodox as far as Christianity goes. Your practice of how to treat others seems to be lacking what I understand as the standard modeled for us to follow by Christ.

My experience is that not everyone here will agree with us Christians as far as our beliefs, that is not surprising on a Muslim forum, but the vast majority will engage in respectful discussion of those differences if we will present ourselves as persons open to to hearing all sides. Among those most sincere in his own non-Christian faith, and yet willing to discuss what it is that Christians believe is Al Habeshi. I'm embarassed that a brother or sister in Christ might actually say to another "don't reply unless you meet my conditions." I don't think we get to set conditions on this board, or in real life. The moderators set the conditions here, and God sets them in life. I hope you don't think you are either.

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Yeh I know.

What I meant is that Muslims normally try to disprove the Bible (by pretending they are an expert in the Bible, such as Ahmad Dheedat, Nakir, etc) by quoting Jesus without understanding that the meaning of Jesus message cannot be looked at objectively by taking just a few verses (normally out of context) and expect to prove their position.

I am just recommending that he at least has the decency to read a couple of books of the Bible himself properly (in their entirety) so that he can be sure that what he is saying is said with knowledge.

That is all. It cuts the pointless (fruitless) convo. length down quite a bit.
I just find it easier to discuss if someone has actually read something that they are trying to explain and disprove.

YEh

Re: question to the christians

YEh said:

Please do not continue to reply unless you have met the conditions I have mentioned above.

Thanks.

YEh

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Maybe you could clearly outline the conditions, the only condition I have seen outlined was this;

YEh said:

But you cannot make that comment because, and now i'm assuming of course, you haven't read any book of the Bible in their entirety.

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Two replies,


Moving forth,

You asked,

YEh said:

If you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin birth and was born of the Holy spirit (Divine DNA). Why do you find it hard to believe that he was divine ?

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With regards to this then this logic is only special pleading, Aadam was born without mother or father, and God according to your book, breathed into Aadam, Aadam by that had DNA of Divine origin, does this mean he is divine no.

Furthermore, you are under the assumption that it was Diving DNA, for God can create by saying be and it is, a spirit can be sent by God without the spirit being divine, this is my belief.

YEh said:

What other prophet was born in this special way ? And you still believe that he is just another prophet :?

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This is where my answer came in, someone born in a special way does not make him special, someone having a miracle happen to them does not make them special. If a person is by miracle cured of HIV who is an athiest, and a person who is a Christian dies of it does this mean the athiest is better in God's eyes? Similarly the Birth of Jesus is not an indication of his status.

YEh said:

I believe the Bible has so many cross-references to the old and new testaments that 40 different authors over a period of approx. 4000 years that their is no way it could be written by man. Man could not write such a book that is so interconnected.

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This makes me wonder if you yourself know the history of Biblical compilation, if you told me the above and there was knowledge that the authors had no ideas of the Old Testament then I'd agree it'd be pretty amazing, but the authorsof the Gospel had the Old Testament there, they could make references as they wanted.

Furthermore, to show you one point, let me quote something interesting and you can reply for me;

Matthew 2:15


This is a passage in which matthew uses a line out of the Old Testament as prophecy and places it upon the life of Jesus as being fufilled, let us turn back to the book where he got it from;

Hosea 11:1


Amazing in my eyes, a blatant misquote!! Talk about cross references.

YEh said:

So the only hard evidence that I have heard to this

is that archeologists have found older texts of the NT which do not contain the last few verses of Mark's gospel. They were just a copiest error which was added by a scholar to write notes about doctrines of the NT. Well it has been copied many times so that it can preserved. So it was a mistake not corruption of Jesus's message.

The only other evidence is that some ages and dates and generally numbers are not exactly the same when there is more than one account of events.

This is just amazing that these are the only errors found in the Bible. Which has been copied many times. For about 2000 years.

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First thing, interesting way to dismiss this as copiest errors, you say they were notes written in by scholars about the doctrine, let us see the addition and think;

8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))
9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.

12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

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Anyone familiar with the NT knows that this is how the Gospels are there is no evidence to show that this is only a side note, rather the evidence shows that this is a conitnuation of the story! Let us be honest if it was only side notes why would it still be in the Bible today.

Furthermore, it seems that you like to speak about cross reference, am assuming you have cross referenced the Gospels with each other, so how do you explain the evolution of the person of Jesus within those Gospels? Am sure you know what I mean after all you have set the conditions down so I expect you to know better.

Hope to hear from you soon,

Eesa.

Words of truth

"Somebody ought to tell the truth about the Bible. The preachers dare not, because they would be driven from their pulpits. Professors in colleges dare not, because they would lose their salaries. Politicians dare not. They would be defeated. Editors dare not. They would lose subscribers. Merchants dare not, because they might lose customers. Men of fashion dare not, fearing that they would lose caste. Even clerks dare not, because they might be discharged. And so I thought I would do it myself . . . " Robert G. Ingersoll


"God sacrificed his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their own sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but is an obcene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect out imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us." (page 145-146) and "Actually, the fact that we have four gospels lies at the very heart of our problem. Because we read particular parables or sayings or stories in several different versions, we can't miss the disagreements between them" (page 3-4), From "Who is Jesus" by John Dominic Crossan (35 years of searching for the historical Jesus and former Catholic priest)

"Do not hate your enemy for he may one day become your friend" ~ Ali (ra)