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Link
08-04-2005, 02:06 PM
:sl:

Need an explanation of this hadith, we can't reject it so looking for a rational explanation


Sahih Muslim:

حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏يَحْيَى بْنُ أَيُّوبَ ‏ ‏وَإِسْحَقُ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ‏ ‏جَمِيعًا ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏ابْنِ عُلَيَّةَ ‏ ‏قَالَ ‏ ‏ابْنُ أَيُّوبَ ‏ ‏حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏ابْنُ عُلَيَّةَ ‏ ‏حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏يُونُسُ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ يَزِيدَ التَّيْمِيِّ ‏ ‏سَمِعَهُ ‏ ‏فِيمَا أَعْلَمُ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏أَبِيهِ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏أَبِي ذَرٍّ ‏‏أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏قَالَ يَوْمًا ‏ ‏أَتَدْرُونَ أَيْنَ تَذْهَبُ هَذِهِ الشَّمْسُ قَالُوا اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَعْلَمُ قَالَ إِنَّ هَذِهِ ‏ ‏تَجْرِي حَتَّى تَنْتَهِيَ إِلَى مُسْتَقَرِّهَا تَحْتَ الْعَرْشِ فَتَخِرُّ سَاجِدَةً فَلَا تَزَالُ كَذَلِكَ حَتَّى يُقَالَ لَهَا ارْتَفِعِي ارْجِعِي مِنْ حَيْثُ جِئْتِ فَتَرْجِعُ فَتُصْبِحُ طَالِعَةً مِنْ مَطْلِعِهَا ثُمَّ ‏ ‏تَجْرِي حَتَّى تَنْتَهِيَ إِلَى مُسْتَقَرِّهَا تَحْتَ الْعَرْشِ فَتَخِرُّ سَاجِدَةً وَلَا تَزَالُ كَذَلِكَ حَتَّى يُقَالَ لَهَا ارْتَفِعِي ارْجِعِي مِنْ حَيْثُ جِئْتِ فَتَرْجِعُ فَتُصْبِحُ طَالِعَةً مِنْ مَطْلِعِهَا ثُمَّ ‏ ‏تَجْرِي لَا يَسْتَنْكِرُ النَّاسَ مِنْهَا شَيْئًا حَتَّى تَنْتَهِيَ إِلَى مُسْتَقَرِّهَا ذَاكَ تَحْتَ الْعَرْشِ فَيُقَالُ لَهَا ارْتَفِعِي أَصْبِحِي طَالِعَةً مِنْ مَغْرِبِكِ فَتُصْبِحُ طَالِعَةً مِنْ مَغْرِبِهَا فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏أَتَدْرُونَ مَتَى ‏ ‏ذَاكُمْ ذَاكَ حِينَ ‏لَا يَنْفَعُ نَفْسًا إِيمَانُهَا لَمْ تَكُنْ آمَنَتْ مِنْ قَبْلُ أَوْ كَسَبَتْ فِي إِيمَانِهَا

Book 001, Number 0297:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.
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Mr. Baldy
08-04-2005, 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by Link
:sl:

Need an explanation of this hadith, we can't reject it so looking for a rational explanation


Sahih Muslim:ا

Book 001, Number 0297:
The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.
aslaam alkyum,

sounds as if its going to happen in the akhirah?

wa alkyum aslaam
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Link
08-04-2005, 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by Mr. Baldy
aslaam alkyum,

sounds as if its going to happen in the akhirah?

wa alkyum aslaam
this is the sign of Imam Mahdi, the sun rising from the opposite side, so that statement is refering to that

i'm looking for an explanation of the sun hidding under the throne, coming up, etc..
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Abu Zakariya
08-04-2005, 06:05 PM
Okay...

If we were to interpret this literally, i.e. that the sun does phisically hide under the throne and come up etc. Then we would have to reinterpret some other things... For instance... Is Allahs throne above or in the creation? This would imply that it was in the creation and we know that that aint the case. So, does it mean that the sun goes all the way up to Allahs throne? It seems unlikely in my opinion...
What we have here is similar to the verses where Allah says that the plants (I think) prostrate to Him.

What we are supposed to ponder over here is how Allah is the One that makes the sun go up and down and the sun has submitted to Him. That's my opinion.
However, it might be that it does indeed rest under the throne. But that's a matter of the unseen.

Here's more info:

Answered by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net

EDIT: I'd just like to point out, insha'Allah, that, you know, I'm not a scholar or a person of knowledge or anything so I shouldn't be in the business of having a certain opinion on a matter this big or doing my interpretation. I just think it's most likely that this is the way how the hadith should be interpreted because I did actually ask Dr. Saleh as-Saleh hafidhahullah about this, and he told me about how ibn 'Uthaymeen rahimahullah once said that the sun does move and everything, but that the hadith is talking about how we mortal human beings percieve it. It's describing our point of view.
The opinion seems to be a bit different at islamtoday.net (see the link), but still, 'Uthaymeen did say that it's about how we see it...
Just wanted to clarify so it doesn't appear like I'm throwing out fatawa about these things...

I'd also like to hear what Ansar al-'Adl thinks about this matter... He seems to know some about these kind of things masha'Allah =)
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-05-2005, 01:29 AM
:sl:

I'm going to post two quotes on the issue and I intend to post more info on this topic as I find it, insha'Allah. As for now, most of the information seems to have already been given.

Omar Sarwar:
In citing these two portrayals, the writer charges that both the Qur'an and the Prophet are scientifically inaccurate in suggesting that the Sun sets in muddy springs, or that it could set beneath the Throne of God, and then rise in the West. I do not have much to say in response to this charge, except that I find it ludicrous to even contemplate these passages in a literal sense. In the first scenario, Dhul-Qarnayn arrives at his destination and seems to be moved by its beauty. The description of the Sun setting in the muddy spring is a lovely poetic account of the occasion for a divine command. I do not think anyone thinks, after reading a poem that describes the beauty of the "Sunset," that the poet is ignorant of science because, as we know, the Sun does not move in relation to the earth but rather vice versa. I do not think that anyone who reads the newspaper to find out what time the "Sun sets" should be considered a fool for trusting a source that apparently has not yet recognized that the Solar System is not, after all, Earth-centered, as was long supposed. It should be obvious that the idea of the "Sun setting" has never been understood as literally as the writer proposes; it seems unfair to demand a book of religious and spiritual wisdom to suddenly conform to such an unrealistic, strict standard of "scientific piety." As far as the Hadith is concerned, the Prophet (pbuh), also speaking allegorically and poetically, was alluding to the reversal of natural laws and processes at the advent of the Day of Judgment. This explains the Qur'anic verse that indicates the "term (decreed)," which simply means the temporary phase during which the Sun (and the rest of the constituents of the universe) will obey the rules of the macrocosmic arrangement implemented by the Creator, before being rearranged, destroyed, reversed during the Final Judgment. The rising of the Sun in the West is a manifestation of this reversal of cosmic process.
Source:
http://understanding-islam.com/relat...stion&qid=3012

Pr. Shahul Hameed:
This is a hadith that symbolically explains the system of the natural order in the universe containing all heavenly bodies such as the sun and the moon that run their courses according to the Law of the Creator. To many, the sun seems to move unchangingly, following some fixed and blind natural laws. But the Prophet through this hadith teaches us that the sun (or any star or planet for that matter) moves along its course only as long as it is commanded to do so; and if Allah Almighty wills, He can cause it to change its routine by a command.

“Prostration before the throne” represents the sun’s complete subservience and surrender before the power of the Almighty Creator. But most surely there is a day when the whole world as we know it will come to an end, and that is the day when no one who has been unmindful of God can benefit from accepting faith at the last moment. It is on that day that Allah the Almighty will command the sun to return to its setting place and rise from there. Then the sun will rise from the west at the appointed time, as indicated in this verse:
*{And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing.}* (Ya-Sin 36:38)

The meaning of the hadith becomes clear in the light of the above verse. God, in His perfect wisdom and knowledge, has decreed specific orbits and movements to the heavenly bodies for an appointed term, and they, on their own, cannot deviate even for a millisecond from their respective paths.
http://www.islamonline.net/askabouti...uestionID=9142

If anyone wants me to elaborate and add my perspective, I will, but most of the points are already mentioned.
:w:
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Abu Zakariya
08-05-2005, 01:48 AM
wa 'alaykumu salaam

barakAllah fik akhi. I'd really like it if you did indeed add your perspective, especially on the prostration under the Throne. Do you feel that it represents the surrender of the sun to Allahs power?
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Ansar Al-'Adl
08-05-2005, 02:03 AM
:sl:
Allah swt tells us in the Qur'an that:
22:18 Do you not see that to Allah prostrates those in the heavens and those on the earth and the sun, the moon, the stars, the mountains, the trees, the moving creatures and many of the people? But upon many the punishment has been justified...

This verse tells us that everything prostrates (performs sujûd) to Allah, including mountains and trees and the sun and the moon. But we don't see mountains and trees bending over; they prostrate to Him through their adherence to the natural laws He has subjected them to, and as such they are in complete submission to His will. This verse tells us the same is true for the sun. Its movement and functions are all part of its prostration to Allah swt. Notice also the wording of this verse; it says Do you not SEE that everything prostrates to Allah including the sun and the moon. So the prostration of the sun is not something that happens only after we see it set; no, the prostration of the sun is perpetual and VISIBLE to us in that we see it subjected to the orders of Allah swt. So what is the prophet saws telling us in the hadith? He is saying that even though the sun disappears from your sight it is STILL in submission and prostration to Allah swt even though you think it is gone or not doing anything. Just as you see it in prostration to Him during the day, it is like that during your night. This is the explanation of his saying that the sun goes and makes sujûd.

As for the saying about the throne of Allah swt, then as soon as we speak of anything related to Allah, it immediately negates physical descriptions of space and time. Therefore, there is no specific location where the sun can travel to prostrate, since we stand before Allah everyday in our salah despite the various locations. As for time, then the description necessitates that the sun is constantly in prostration as sunset occurs continuously around the world. And as for the act of prostration, then the Qur'an describes that the prostration and worship of all creation is in obeying the commands and laws of its Creator, as we mentioned earlier.

So the Prophet saws asked his companions, "Do you know where the sun goes when it sets?", meaning, do you know what the sun is doing and where it is when it disappears? Then he explained, "it goes until it prostrates under the throne of Allah swt", meaning it continues in its percieved path relative to the earth, all the while in prostration before Allah swt. And it is in this state until it is ordered to return to its place of rising, meaning the point at which it becomes visible again for us and its prostration becomes visible. And this continues until on the Day of Judgement this process will reverse.

The Prophet peace be upon often employed these symbolic, allegorical or metaphorical descriptions. Another example can be found in the Hadeeth related by 'Amr bin 'Absah.

I asked the Apostle of Allah about Salaah and the Apostle said:

"Pray morning prayer, then stop praying until the sun has risen, for it rises between two horns of Shaitaan (the devil); at that time, the disbelievers prostrate to it. Then pray, for the prayer at this time is witnessed and attended to by (the angels) until the shadow is on the side of a spear (that is when the shadow of things is equal with it), then stop praying for at that time, the hell-fire is fuelled. When afternoon comes, pray, for prayer at that time is witnessed and attended to by (the angels), until you pray 'Asr, then stop praying until the sun sets, for it sets between the two horns of Shaitaan, at that time the disbelievers prostrate to it." (Ahmad/Muslim)

Here the Prophet saws stated that the sun sets between the horns of the devil, whereas in the other hadith, it sets under the throne of Allah swt. Thus, we cannot take a literal interpretation especially since the logic behind the hadith is obvious to us as it was to the companions.

Regarding the hadith of the sun setting under Allah's throne, the companions never thought that the Prophet's point was to describe an astronomy lesson in the hadith. Rather, it was to let them know that not only is the sun also a servant of Allah and in constant obedience, but that its routine would come to an end at the day of judgement.

Regarding the hadith where the sun sets between the horns of the devil, again, the logic is that at sunset the devil inspires many people to worship the sun because of its splendid appearance at this time, and therefore Muslims should avoid anything that could make them similar to the the disbelievers.

Why did the Prophet saws use analogies like this? He was speaking to arabs 1400 years ago who had no understanding of science and could only relate to what they were witnessing around them. So he used his words carefully and allegorically taught lessons in worship through connecting them to worldly phenomenon.

Other than that, I think Br. Abu Zakariyyah gave a good response when he said that we don't take things literally, as in the embryo is a clot of blood, etc. These are parables and comparisons.

:w:
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Diesel1907
01-07-2007, 05:49 AM
We all know that sun isn't going anywhere when it sets because it's the earth that moves around the sun. What do you guys think about this hadith?


Bukhari; Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520:

Narrated Abu Dharr:

I entered the mosque while Allah's Apostle was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet recited, "That: "And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by 'Abdullah.
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mujahida3001
01-07-2007, 05:55 AM
"And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by 'Abdullah. ....

meaning, it runs on ONLY what is has been decreed/ordered to do so... also means that there is no 'free will' here..

so no this hadith doesnt contradict science
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Abu Zakariya
01-07-2007, 05:58 AM
This is a matter of the unseen and refers to the sun's relationship to the Throne of Allah 'Azza wa Jall.

We know from a hadith that when we stand to pray, Allah 'Azza wa Jall is in front of us. But we know that He is above the Throne. So we see from this that just because it is mentioned that Allah 'Azza wa Jall is in front of us when we pray doesn't mean that we go up to the Throne of Allah and pray. In the same way, just because the sun prostates under the Throne, doesn't mean that it travels all the way up to the Throne or that the Throne is within the creation (which clearly isn't the case).

See this:

http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detai...main_cat_id=31
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lolwatever
01-07-2007, 06:03 AM
Salams bro,

The hadith doesn't contradict what we know about the sun,

it doesnt say its moving around the earth, it just says it's going... and the fact that the prophet quoted that verse, shows that the motion he's referring to is the one where the sun is moving to a point in space (scientists believe it to be constellation hercules)

So at every certain interval it prostrates (in a manner that is unkown to us) and when the time comes it will rise from the west (i.e. either the earth could reverse in orbit, or some other sort of happening that we dont seem to know about yet would happen).

An analogy for prostration... just like we make thikr, all other creations make thikr in a manner unkown to us, same with prostration.. we prostrate in a manner we know... the sun and other creations do so, in a manner that we dont know of.

Hope that helps :)
take care all the best :)
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adamtaufique
01-07-2007, 06:12 AM
This was one of the few errors that was made in Maurice Bucaille's book entitled, The Bible, Qur'an and Science.

He mentions this hadeeth in the appendix section of the book, but many people have said that he made an error with the translation of the hadeeth.

And Allah knows best.
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lolwatever
01-07-2007, 06:14 AM
Originally Posted by adamtaufique
This was one of the few errors that was made in Maurice Bucaille's book entitled, The Bible, Qur'an and Science.

He mentions this hadeeth in the appendix section of the book, but many people have said that he made an error with the translation of the hadeeth.

And Allah knows best.
then wats the hadith in arabic say? :?
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