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dishdash
04-30-2007, 01:09 PM
I've never had a satisfactory answer to this one!
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azim
04-30-2007, 01:42 PM
Asalaamu alaykum.

A bit of an odd question. Isn't it just the same as "what's the ruling on wearing niqaab?"?

The scholars who hold niqaab as wajib would say "no, unless she is mahram" and the scholars who hold niqaab as sunnah/mustahab wouldn't consider it impermissable etc...

Having said that, keep in mind that on Hajj, the niqaab can't be worn.
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dishdash
04-30-2007, 02:04 PM
No, not the same question at all.

So the sisters in the niqaab can have no objection to police, etc who request them to show their faces for id purposes. Is that what you would say?
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rania2820
04-30-2007, 02:16 PM
:sl:
These special situations may be summed up as follows:

I – Proposal of marriage

It is permitted for a woman to uncover her face and hands in front of a man who wants to propose to her, so that he may see them, without being alone with her and without touching her, because the face gives an indication of ugliness or beauty, and the hands give an indication of whether the body is slender or plump (which in turn gives an impression about fertility).

Abu’l-Faraj al-Maqdisi said: “The scholars do not differ as to the permissibility of looking at the face… the focal point of beauty, the place one looks at…”

Many ahaadeeth indicate that it is permissible for a man to look at the woman to whom he is proposing marriage. Among them are the following:

Sahl ibn Sa’d (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “A woman came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, I came to give myself to you in marriage.’ So the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) looked at her, he raised his gaze and stared at her, then he lowered his head. When the woman saw that he had not made any decision, she sat down. Then a man from among his Companions stood up and said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, if you don’t want to marry her, then marry her to me.’ …” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 7/19; Muslim, 4/143; al-Nisaa’i bi Sharh al-Suyooti, 6/113; al-Bayhaqi, 7/84).

Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I was with the Prophet , and a man came to him and told him that he had married a woman of the Ansaar. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Have you looked at her?’ He said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Go and look at her, for there is something in the eyes of the Ansaar.’” (Reported by Ahmad, 2/286, 299; Muslim, 4/142; al-Nisaa’i, 2/73).

Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you proposes marriage to a woman, if he can look at that which will encourage him to go ahead and marry her, let him do so.” (Reported by Abu Dawood and al-Haakim. Its isnaad is hasan, and there is corroborating evidence in the hadeeth of Muhammad ibn Muslimah. It was classed as saheeh by Ibn Hibbaan and al-Haakim. It was also reported by Ahmad and Ibn Maajah, and by Ahmad and al-Bazzaar from the hadeeth of Abu Humayd. Fath al-Baari, 9/181).

Al-Zayla’i said: “It is not permissible for him to touch her face or hands – even if he feels that no desire will be aroused by doing so – because it is haraam and there is no need to do so.” In Durar al-Bihaar it says: “It is not permissible for the qaadi, the witnesses or the groom to touch her, even if they feel that no desire will be aroused by doing so, because there is no need for that.” (Radd al-Muhtaar ‘ala’l-Durr al-Mukhtaar, 5/237).

Ibn Qudaamah said: “It is not permitted for him to be alone with her because she is still forbidden for him, and only a look is permitted, therefore being alone with her remains haraam, because there is no guarantee that he will not do something haraam if he is alone with her. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No man is alone with a [non-mahram] woman but the Shaytaan is the third one present with them.” He should not look at her in a lustful or suspicious manner. Ahmad said, according to a report narrated by Saalih: “He should look at the face, and he should not look in a lustful manner.”

The man may look at her repeatedly, checking her features, because the desired aim cannot be achieved in any other way.”

II – Business dealings

It is permitted for a woman to uncover her face and hands when buying or selling, and it is permitted for the vendor to see her face when he hands over the goods and asks for the money, provided that this will not lead to fitnah – otherwise it is forbidden.

Ibn Qudaamah said: “If a person deals with a woman when selling or renting, he may look at her face so he knows who she is, and may go back to her when the money is due (a guarantee of the price when the deal is finalized). It was reported that Ahmad said this was makrooh in the case of a young woman, but not in the case of an old woman, and in the case where there is fear of fitnah, or where there is no need for this business deal. But in cases where it is necessary, and there is no wrongful desire, then there is no harm in it.” (al-Mughni, 7/459; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/348 bi Haamish al-Mughni; al-Hidaayah ma’a Takmilat Fath al-Qadeer, 10/24).

Al-Dasooqi said: “ When testimony is given concerning a woman who wears niqaab (face-veil), she has to remove her niqaab. This applies in the case of marriage and other matters, such as selling, giving gifts, debts, power of attorney, and so on. This is the opinion favoured by our shaykh.” (Haashiyat al-Dasooqi ‘ala’l-Sharh al-Kabeer, 4/194).

III – Medical treatment

A woman is permitted to uncover the site of her illness whether it is on her face or elsewhere on her body, for a male doctor to treat her, on the condition that her husband or mahram is present, and if she cannot find a female doctor. It is less serious for her to be seen by a doctor of the same sex, and she should not be seen by a non-Muslim doctor if a Muslim doctor is available. Also, she should not uncover more than the site of the problem.

It is not permissible for the doctor to look at or touch more than is necessary, because the issue is one of necessity and should not be exaggerated.

Ibn Qudaamah said: “it is permissible for the doctor to look at whatever is necessary of her body, of her private parts and elsewhere, because there is a need for it to be uncovered.

It was reported that a boy who had stolen something was brought to ‘Uthmaan. He said, ‘Look at his groin (to see if he had pubic hair, which would indicate whether he had reached the age of puberty [and would therefore be considered to be a responsible adult] or not).’ They did not find any pubic hair, so they did not cut off his hand.” (Al-Mughni, 7/459; Ghidha’ al-Albaab, 1/97).

Ibn ‘Aabideen said: “He said in al-Jawharah: if the illness is in any part of her body apart from her private part, it is permitted (for the doctor) to look at it in order to treat it, because it is the matter of necessity. If the sickness is in her private part, he (the doctor) should teach a woman how to treat it. If there is nobody who can do that, and they fear that she may die or suffer unbearably, then they should cover all of her body except the site of the sickness, then a man may treat her, but he should avoid looking at her as much as he can, and look only at the site of the sickness that he is treating.” (Radd al-Muhtaar, 5/237. See also, al-Hidaayah al-‘Alaa’iyah, p. 245).

A similar ruling applies to one who is taking care of a sick person, even if it is someone of the opposite sex, when helping the patient with wudoo’ or istinja’ (washing the private parts after using the toilet). (See Ghidha’ al-Albaab, 1/97).

Muhammad Fu’aad said: “What indicates that it is permissible for a man to treat a woman – within the restrictions mentioned above – is the report narrated by Imaam al-Bukhaari with his isnaad from al-Rabee’ bint Mu’awwadh, who said: “We used to go out on military campaigns with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). We would bring water to the people and serve them, and bring the dead and wounded back to Madeenah.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 6/80, 10/136. Fath al-Baari. A similar report was narrated from Anas by Muslim, 5/196; Abu Dawood, 7/205 ma’a ‘Awn al-Ma’bood; and al-Tirmidhi, 5/301-302, who said this is hasan saheeh)

Al-Bukhaari included this hadeeth under the chapter heading Baab hal yudaawi’l-rajul ul-mar’ah wa’l-mar’at ul-rajul? (Chapter: can a man treat a woman or a woman a man?). (Fath al-Baari, 10/136).

Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said: “The ruling that a man may treat a woman was derived from this by analogy; he (al-Bukhaari) did not confirm that, because it is possible that this referred to the time before hijaab was made obligatory, or that women used to take care of their husbands or mahrams on military campaigns. The ruling is that it is permissible for women to treat non-mahram men in cases of necessity, with as little looking and touching as possible.” (Fath al-Baari, 10/136)

IV – Testimony

It is permissible for a woman to uncover her face when she is giving testimony in court, whether she is a witness in a case or is there to witness a deal, and it is permissible for the qaadi (judge) to look at her in order to know who she is and to protect the rights of all concerned.

Shaykh al-Dardeer said: “It is not permitted to give testimony against a woman in niqaab until she uncovers her face so that it may be known who she is and what she looks like.” (Al-Sharh al-Kabeer li’l- Shaykh al-Dardeer, 4/194)

Ibn Qudaamah said: “The witness may look at the face of the woman against whom he is testifying so that his testimony will speak about her in specific terms. Ahmad said: ‘He cannot testify against a woman unless he knows who she is.’” (Al-Mughni, 7/459; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/348, bi haamish al-Mughni; al-Hidaayah ma’a Takmilat Fath al-Qadeer, 10/26).

V – In court cases

It is permissible for a woman to uncover her face in front of a qaadi (judge) who is to rule either in her favour or against her, and in this situation he may look at her face in order to know who she is and for the sake of protecting people’s rights.

The same rules that apply to giving testimony or bearing witness also apply in court cases, because they serve the same purpose. (See Al-Durar al-Mukhtaar, 5/237; Al-Hadiyah al-‘Alaa’iyah, p. 244; Al-Hadiyah ma’a Takmilat Fath al-Qadeer, 10/26).

VI – In front of mature boys who feel no physical desire

It is permissible – according to one of the two reports – for a woman to show in front of a mature boy who feels no physical desire what she shows in front of her mahrams, because he has no interest in women, and it is permissible for him to see all that.

Shaykh Abu’l-Faraj al-Maqdisi said: “The mature boy who feels no physical desire may see parts of a woman’s body above the navel and below the knee, according to one of the two reports, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings): ‘… there is no sin on you or on them to move about, - attending (helping) you each other…’ [al-Noor 24:58] and ‘And when the children among you come to puberty, then let them (also) ask for permission, as those senior to them (in age)…’ [al-Noor 24:59]. This indicates that there is a differentiation between those who have reached puberty and those who have not.”

Abu ‘Abd-Allaah said: “Abu Tayyibah did cupping for the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he was a boy.”

It was also reported that he said: “He is like the ajnabi (stranger, i.e., non-mahram), because he is like one who has reached puberty in the matter of physical desires, and this means that hijaab is required and it is forbidden to look. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ‘… small children who have no sense of the shame of sex…’ [al-Noor 24:31]. As for small boys who are not mature, it is not necessary to cover in front of them at all.” (Al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/349. See also Al-Mughni, 7/458 and Ghada’ al-Albaab, 1/97).

VII – The man who has no desire

It is permissible for a woman to show in front of a man who has no desire what she can show in front of her mahrams, because he has no interest in women, and he is allowed to see all of that. Ibn Qudaamah said: “Whoever no longer feels any desire, because of old age, impotence or incurable illness, or because he is a eunuch, … or a mukhannath (the effeminate man or a man who has female hormones) who feels no desire, the ruling that applies to such a man is the same as the ruling that applies to mahrams regarding looking at women, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ‘… or old male servants who lack vigour…’ [al-Noor 24:31], i.e., those who feel no desire for women.” Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “This is the one of whom women do not feel shy.” He also said: “This is the mukhannath who is impotent (i.e., cannot have an erection).”

It was reported that Mujaahid and Qutaadah said: “This is the one who has no interest in women, but if he is a mukhannath who feels desire and knows about women, then the rules that apply to others apply also to him, because ‘Aa’ishah said: ‘A mukhannath entered upon the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and they used to think that he was a man who felt no physical desires, but the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) entered upon us when this man was describing a woman and saying ‘When she comes in, she comes on four, and when she goes out, she goes on eight.’ The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Do I not see that this man knows who is here? This one should never enter upon you.’ And he was kept away after that.” (Reported by Abu Dawood and others).

Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said: “The mukhannath is not only the one who is known to be promiscuous. The mukhannath is the one who looks so much like a woman physically that he resembles women in his softness, speech, appearance, accent and thinking. If he is like this, he would have no desire for women and he would not notice anything about them. This is one of those who have no interest in women who were permitted to enter upon women. Do you not see that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not prevent that mukhannath from entering upon his wives at first, but when he heard him describing the daughter of Ghaylaan and realized that he knew about women, he commanded that he should be kept away.” (Al-Mughni, 7/463; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/347-348).

IX – Old women who are past marriageable age

Old women who are past marriageable age may uncover their faces and what usually appears in front of non-mahram men, but it is still better for them to remain covered.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And as for women past child-bearing who do not expect wedlock, it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment. But to refrain (i.e., not to discard their outer clothing) is better for them…” [al-Noor 24:60]. Ibn Qudaamah said: “In the case of old women who are past marriageable age, there is nothing wrong if they show what ordinarily appears, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning), ‘And as for women past child-bearing who do not expect wedlock…’ [al-Noor 24:60].” Ibn ‘Abbaas said concerning the aayahs (interpretation of the meanings), “Tell the believing men to lower their gaze…” [al-Noor 24:30] and “Tell the believing women to lower their gaze…” [al-Noor 24:31]: “Old women who no longer expect to get married were exempted from this. The same exemption also applied to women who are deformed and are not desirable.” (Al-Mughni, 7/463; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/347-348).

X – Uncovering the face in front of kaafir women

The scholars have differed concerning how a Muslim woman should appear in front of kaafir women.

Ibn Qudaamah said: “The ruling concerning women dealing with women is the same as that concerning men dealing with men. There is no difference between Muslims, and no difference between a Muslim woman and a dhimmi (non-Muslim living under Muslim rule) woman, just as there is no difference between two Muslim men or between a Muslim man and a dhimmi man when it comes to seeing. Ahmad said: ‘Some people think that she should not take off her head covering in front of a Jewish or Christian woman. However, I think that she (a Jewish or Christian woman) should not see the private part (of a Muslim woman), or attend her when she gives birth (i.e., she should not be her midwife, because she will look at the most private part of her body when she gives birth – except in cases of necessity, as discussed above).’”

Another opinion was reported from Ahmad, according to which a Muslim woman should not remove her niqaab in front of a dhimmi woman, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… or their women …” [al-Noor 24:31]. But the first opinion is more correct, because kaafir women, Jewish and others, used to enter upon the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and they did not wear hijaab in front of them nor were they commanded to do so. ‘Aa’ishah said that a Jewish woman used to come and talk to her, saying “May Allaah save you from the punishment of the grave,” and she [‘Aa’ishah] asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)… Asma’ said, “My mother came to me, and she had no desire to become Muslim. I asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), ‘Should I uphold the ties of kinship with her?’ and he said, ‘Yes.’”

Moreover, hijaab between men and women serves a purpose that is not an issue in the case of a Muslim woman and a dhimmi woman, just as it is not an issue in the case of a Muslim man and a dhimmi man. Hijaab is obligatory when there is a text stating that it is so or the obligation may be understood by analogy; in the case of a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim woman, there is neither text nor analogy.

The aayah “… or their women …” [al-Noor 24:31] could refer to all women. (Al-Mughni, 7/464; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/351 bi haamish al-Mughni).

Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki said: “The correct view, in my opinion, is that this permissible in the case of all women, and that it appears with the pronoun ( -hinna = their) to match the rest of the aayah. This is the aayah of pronouns, where the pronoun -hinna appears twenty-five times; there is nothing else like it in the Qur’aan. So this word matches the others.” (Ahkaam al-Qur’aan, 3/326).

Al-Aloosi said: “Al-Fakhr al-Raazi suggested that the dhimmi woman is like the Muslim woman, and he said: “The correct opinion is that she (the dhimmi woman) is like the Muslim woman, and ‘their women’ means all women. The opinion of the salaf (early generations of Islam) should be understood on the basis that (covering in front of non-Muslim women) is preferable, but it is not obligatory.” Then he said: “This view is easier for people today, for Muslim woman can hardly observe hijaab in front of dhimmi women.” (Tafseer al-Aloosi, 19/143).

Muhammad Fu’aad said: “If this opinion was easier in their time, then no doubt it is more appropriate and easier in our own time, especially for those women who, because of circumstances beyond their control, find that they have to live in non-Muslim countries, where they mix with non-Muslim women and their lives are interwoven with theirs, to the extent that observing hijaab in front of them is fraught with difficulties. Truly, to Allaah we belong, and truly, to Him we shall return.”

XI – Hajj and ‘Umrah

Women must uncover their faces and hands when they enter ihraam for Hajj or ‘Umrah. At this time, they are forbidden to wear niqaab and gloves, because the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The woman who is in ihraam must not wear niqaab or gloves.”

If a woman needs to cover her face because men are passing close by her, or she is beautiful and is sure that men are looking at her, she should drop a part of head covering over her face, because of the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah in which she said, “Riders were passing by us, and we were in ihraam with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), so when they came near, each of us would lower her jilbaab over her face, and when they went away we would uncover our faces again.”

Al-Juzayri said, reporting from them: “A woman may cover her face for a necessary reason, such as non-mahram men passing close by her, and the fact that (the cloth) will touch her face does not matter. This is to make it easy and alleviate hardship.” (Al-Fiqh ‘ala’l-Madhaahib al-Arba’ah, 1/645).

These are situations in which it is acceptable for a woman to uncover her face and hands, explained in detail by the fuqaha’ and scholars. But there is one other situation which deserves our attention, and that is when a Muslim woman is forced to uncover her face – what is the ruling in this case?

XII – Compulsion

Some oppressive regimes have instituted harsh laws which go against the religion of Islam and rebel against Allaah and His Messenger. These laws prevent Muslim women from wearing proper hijaab, and some of them even remove their niqaab by force and subject them to the worst type of oppression and persecution.

Women who wear niqaab have been subjected to harassment in certain European countries, where they have been subjected to harm, and Islam and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have been slandered.

Therefore, when a woman is certain that she is likely to be subjected to unbearable harassment, she is permitted to uncover her face. It is better to follow a scholarly opinion which is less correct than to expose herself to trouble at the hands of evil men.

If a woman is permitted to uncover her face and hands in the situations described above, which do not involve force or harassment, then surely it is more likely that she is permitted to uncover them when she is faced with a threat to herself and her religion, especially when her niqaab may expose her to tormentors who may pull the hijaab from her head or subject her to worse abuse. In cases of necessity, things that are ordinarily forbidden are permitted, within the limits of what is strictly necessary, as the scholars have stated, but this should not lead one to take the matter of covering the face lightly. Each woman must evaluate the situation in which she is living and learn from her own experience and that of others, so that she will be sure of what is a case of real necessity, as opposed to her own whims and weaknesses.

Although women are permitted to uncover their faces and hands in the exceptional situations described above, they are not permitted to wear make-up and visible jewellery if they do so. It is forbidden for them to display these things in front of non-mahram men, according to all the fuqaha’, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… and not to show off their adornment…” [al-Noor 24:31], and because there is no need to do so. (Hijaab al-Muslimah bayna Intihaal wa Ta’weel al-Jaahileen, p. 239).

We ask Allaah to reform the Muslims. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad.

Hijaab al-Muslimah bayna Intihaal wa Ta’weel al-Jaahileen, p. 239
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=2198&ln=eng
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Mawaddah
05-01-2007, 03:40 PM
:sl:

There is a difference whether the niqab is fardh or not, but that's another topic.

If it is required for a woman to uncover her face like in the case of a police investigation etc. Then it is persmissable for her to uncover it, and this is one of the situations where she can uncover it.
Me personally, I would uncover my face rather than kick up a fuss which might lead to bigger complications.

Wallahu A'lam.
:w:
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dishdash
05-01-2007, 04:00 PM
Not in the Hanafi madhab there's not. There's a minority opinion in Shafi fiqh that if it is considered a time of fitna it becomes fard, but it is far from consensus. Can't honestly say I know the other madhab stances on this but if my time spent in Hanbali or Maliki communities is anything to go by I'd say it wasn't considered fard there either.

You personally sister... mash'Allah. You have about you hikma aplenty. Consider it a veritable hudabiya of the face!



format_quote Originally Posted by Mawaddah
:sl:

There is a difference whether the niqab is fardh or not, but that's another topic.

If it is required for a woman to uncover her face like in the case of a police investigation etc. Then it is persmissable for her to uncover it, and this is one of the situations where she can uncover it.
Me personally, I would uncover my face rather than kick up a fuss which might lead to bigger complications.

Wallahu A'lam.
:w:
Reply

Mawaddah
05-01-2007, 05:31 PM
^ Yes that is the arguments of some of the scholars who say that it is not fardh, but this topic is not about whether the niqab is fardh or not Baarakallahu Feek :).
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MinAhlilHadeeth
05-02-2007, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mawaddah
^ Yes that is the arguments of some of the scholars who say that it is not fardh, but this topic is not about whether the niqab is fardh or not Baarakallahu Feek :).
:salamext:

Exactly, please stay on topic everyone.
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Malaikah
05-02-2007, 01:32 PM
:sl:

Why would you want to her see her face if she didn't want you too ?:?
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.:Umniyah:.
05-03-2007, 07:40 AM
:? how confusing this thread is.
Its apparent by default the question isnt about rather the niqaab is waajib or not. So what exactly is the question? You simply saying "Is it allowed to see the face of a niqaabi" isnt clear. See her face in which case? just for no reason? or For something specific?

And besides rather you think the niqaab is waajib or not , if you wear it you wouldnt just go flipping your niqaab up for any ol' reason innit?

So whats really your question bro?
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Nabster
05-03-2007, 11:26 AM
A friend of mines is in the veil... she is getting married soon, i asked if I could see her as i definately wont be able to when she is married.

After reading all the above im rethinking...
What about cousins and when family comes home to the house... there consists mahrims and non-mahrims and the session only lasts soo long.

what about if you dont ask her to remove the niqaab in private as 2 adults cant be alone... what about doing it in a mall or somewhere public but not in front of the world?

We arguing if its Sunnah/Fardh/Waajib... so if she does remove it for her b.f whats the sins for each of the 3 classifications?

Have you guys visited http://askimam.org its from south Africa, but you can ask weird Questions there and Mufti's will reply
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Umm Yoosuf
05-03-2007, 11:49 AM
:sl: :)

A friend of mines is in the veil... she is getting married soon, i asked if I could see her as i definately wont be able to when she is married.
I didn't understand that bit. Are you getting married and intend to see her? Or is she getting married and you want to see her?

After reading all the above im rethinking...
What about cousins and when family comes home to the house... there consists mahrims and non-mahrims and the session only lasts soo long.
Allah knows best.

what about if you dont ask her to remove the niqaab in private as 2 adults cant be alone... what about doing it in a mall or somewhere public but not in front of the world?
I know IF a brother intends to see a sister for marriage then he has the right to see her face but other than for other reasons Allah knows best.

We arguing if its Sunnah/Fardh/Waajib... so if she does remove it for her b.f whats the sins for each of the 3 classifications?
b.f = boyfriend :?

In Islam having a relationship with the oppsite other than that of marriage between husband and wife is Haram.
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...
05-03-2007, 11:58 AM
A friend of mines is in the veil... she is getting married soon, i asked if I could see her as i definately wont be able to when she is married.
what about if you dont ask her to remove the niqaab in private as 2 adults cant be alone... what about doing it in a mall or somewhere public but not in front of the world?
She wears niqaab so that she is covered from ghair mahram, in which case showing you her face just defeats the whole purpous... even on her wedding :confused: and why would you be friends with a sister ?

What about cousins and when family comes home to the house... there consists mahrims and non-mahrims and the session only lasts soo long.
cousins are also ghair mahram... but i know some people treat their cousins like brothers/sisters allahu a3lam
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Nabster
05-03-2007, 12:06 PM
right now while writing this im chatting to a veiled girl on her phone.. and taking into account what my friends say the veiled girls 'all' chat, as in chatrooms and on their phones to guys they know. We havent met any of them, they live in another city totally but veiled girls are chatting to guys they dont know even at 1AM, -5AM!!

How they get one another numbers is throught friends.

my point being what does the veil suppose to mean ... it is a decision made my them to chat, they know what they doing....im guessing its to find a spouse? if thats the reason is it fine?... if they decide to go further then they arrange to meet at her parents? is that still OK?
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Nabster
05-03-2007, 12:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rose_Ice
.. but i know some people treat their cousins like brothers/sisters allahu a3lam
Does 'treat' make everything OK

People start out as freinds, they dont just get married [unless its arranged ;)]

Same things with cousins, the 'treat as sisters/brthers' will then develop further.

[unrelated question] I never fully check this site, are you all Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamah or at least Sunnah... not Shia or Qadiani?
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Malaikah
05-03-2007, 12:15 PM
:sl:

lol yes this forum is officially Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamah.
Reply

...
05-03-2007, 12:16 PM
Thats not true not ALL \'veiled\' girls chat to guys
Those who do are most probably not wearing the veil for the right reasons- rather because of expectations from family/parents etc and they dont know its purpouse- or it could be that they do know but its just a weakeness of faith.

And whats she doing at 5 in the morning tryna find a spouse?? Thats NOT the way to go about it...
Reply

...
05-03-2007, 12:23 PM
Does \'treat\' make everything OK
brother, in this case what would be the difference between mahram and ghair mahram? If we are going to talk to people and \'get to know\' them before marriage then why not just \'get to know\' everyone and chose who you best \'get along\' with ?
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Nabster
05-03-2007, 12:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al-Mu'minah
I didn't understand that bit. Are you getting married and intend to see her? Or is she getting married and you want to see her?
No I intended seeing her as I know her for 8 months...she isnt the same girl I said i was chatting to above...anyways I did have a interest for her marriage related but she said she was taken.. and she is about to get take'd away... so its curiousity as I want to know what I missed.


Before you run off on a tangent i did say i was reconsidering after reading the memo that other peson wrote.

Bear that in mind if you want to comment on this post.

[unrealted Question] How do i set my signature i hope i dont have to wait 50 posts. I got my website to advertise :D
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FatimaAsSideqah
05-03-2007, 12:28 PM
:sl:

"O Prophet! Tell your Wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast (Yudnina 'Alaihinna) their outer garments (Jalabib) over them; so that it is likelier that they will be known and not harmed; and Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah Ahzab, v. 59)"

Not only did Islam command women to stay home, to not talk to Ghair-Mahram men seductively, and to cover themselves with cloaks, it barricaded all those roads from where carnal excitement and bad thoughts may attack human beings. Thus, Allah said (in the Holy Qur'an):

Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that will make for greater purity for them; and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their fathers-in-law, their sons, their step sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters| sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O you Believers! Turn you all together towards Allah, that you may attain Bliss. (Surah Nur, v. 30-31)

1. Husband: A wife is not required to observe Hijab of any part of her body with her husband. However, to look at the private parts unnecessarily is not preferable. 'Aishah (r.a.) stated that the Prophet (s.a.w.) never looked at her private parts nor did she look at his.

2. Father: The grandfather and the great grand father are also included in this category.

3. Father-in-Law: The grand father-in-law and the great grandfather-in-law are included here as well.

4. Sons: The real sons.

5. Step-sons.

6. Real and step-brothers. However, cousin brothers, all of whom are considered Ghair-Mahram, are not included in this category.

7. Sons of the real or step brothers.

8. Sons of real and step sisters. Cousin sisters are not included in here.

The above are the eight kinds of Maharim.

9. Women: Hijab does not need to be observed with other Muslim women either, but Satr cannot be exposed to them as well. However, for the purpose of medical treatment, it is permissible.

10. Their women attendants or servants: According to the majority of scholars, male servants are not included in this category. Hijab must be observed with male servants in the same way as with other Ghair-Mahram men.

11. Men who have no interest or desire for women: These are the men who, because of their mental or physical condition, have no interest or desire left in them for the opposite sex.

12. Immature children: Those who have not reached puberty and have not developed an interest or knowledge of the specific matters related to sex and women. Those children who have such knowledge and interest, regardless of their age, will not be included in this category.

:w:

Fi Amani Allah
Reply

Nabster
05-03-2007, 12:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Rose_Ice
Thats not true not ALL \'veiled\' girls chat to guys
Those who do are most probably not wearing the veil for the right reasons- rather because of expectations from family/parents etc and they dont know its purpouse- or it could be that they do know but its just a weakeness of faith.

And whats she doing at 5 in the morning tryna find a spouse?? Thats NOT the way to go about it...
Ok I asked her that question and heres her answer... she doesnt know im chatting here but anyways...
Nabster: how much background you went throught of the Niqaab before you wore it? did you just decide to wear it 1 day or did someone ask you to try it on, or were you reading up on it and decided to adorn it?

Veiled Girl: I always wantd to wear it, Actualy even more so when we went on hajj, But i was in school, so i didnt & after school, i thought about it. But I had doubts and reservations. Then last Ramadhaan, one day, i thought about it again and decided that enough was enough. I marched into my room, put it on and havent taken it off since
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.:Umniyah:.
05-04-2007, 01:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Nabster
Ok I asked her that question and heres her answer... she doesnt know im chatting here but anyways...
Nabster: how much background you went throught of the Niqaab before you wore it? did you just decide to wear it 1 day or did someone ask you to try it on, or were you reading up on it and decided to adorn it?

Veiled Girl: I always wantd to wear it, Actualy even more so when we went on hajj, But i was in school, so i didnt & after school, i thought about it. But I had doubts and reservations. Then last Ramadhaan, one day, i thought about it again and decided that enough was enough. I marched into my room, put it on and havent taken it off since
Intresting, but i think its not right to tell us any more about this sister without her consent. Furthermore , like that one sis said..."why are you friends with sisters?" thats haraam if you guys arent related. So you telling us youre talking to them and friends with them is exposing sin, and its also haram to do that.

So whatever you do which Allah has concealed then praise him and repent , dont expose it,telling the whole forum about it.

And i think this thread has gone so far off topic is ridiculous. I dont believe this thread had a point to begin with. because from the frist post the intent was very unclear. Its no real question being asked, and its just anonying:blind:
Reply

------
05-04-2007, 09:00 AM
Originally Posted by Rose_Ice
cousins are also ghair mahram... but i know some people treat their cousins like brothers/sisters allahu a3lam
:salamext:

Yeh, but they are like your brothers and sisters anywayz, so whats your point?

Originally Posted by .:Umniyah:.
I dont believe this thread had a point to begin with. because from the frist post the intent was very unclear.
Yeh, you've kind of got a point there sis.
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Umm Yoosuf
05-04-2007, 02:51 PM
Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaah

I feel that people here are
1. going off topic
2. Arguing over nothing.

Many posts have being deleted. If you have anything benefical to say speak if not, then remian silent :)

Jazakallahu Khayran.
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