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Diesel1907
05-02-2007, 11:20 AM
Christians always claim that their priests or preachers are able to cure or heal people by just touching and saying a simple prayer. I've also heard from a lot of christians how their family members got cured from serious diseases after spending a few nights praying. How about our religion, islam? Does anyone have any personal experience where someone with a serious disease got healed with help of prayer?
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Opethian
05-03-2007, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by Diesel1907
Christians always claim that their priests or preachers are able to cure or heal people by just touching and saying a simple prayer. I've also heard from a lot of christians how their family members got cured from serious diseases after spending a few nights praying. How about our religion, islam? Does anyone have any personal experience where someone with a serious disease got healed with help of prayer?
There have been many scientific experiments on this subject, and they have shown that prayer does not help at all. The reason for these claims is a confirmation bias. You see, one time you pray, and nothing happens, another time you pray, and something good happens. Which occurances are you going to remember? Do you hear christians saying, I once prayed for something, and it didn't happen! No, the chances of praying for something and actually receiving it are set (depending on the natural likeliness of the occurance of what you are praying for). If you pray for something which has a good chance of happening, you are likely to receive what you prayed for. If you pray for something which is impossible, for instance the regrowing of an amputated limb, you will not receive it. Why don't you ever hear stories of Christians regrowing an amputated limb by praying for it it? Simple, it's impossible, and prayers have no effect. It is only in cases where it is possible for the event which you are praying for, to happen naturally, that it can occur that you pray for something and receive it. When you pray for someone to get better, and he/she gets better, this person has simply gotten better because of his body's healing process and medicine. The fact that you prayed for him/her to get better and it actually happening, are unrelated.
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Talha777
05-03-2007, 04:32 PM
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

Let me tell you a true story:

A few years back, my father was complaining of immense pain in his chest. He is a diabetic person and is overall not very healthy due to bad eating habits and stress. I believe this is all due to him being an Ahmadi. By the grace of Allah, I am a Muslim, and am in perfect health.

Anyways, we both went to the hospital, and it was revealed to us by the doctors/nurses that he had undergone a minor heartattack. It was told to us that he would have to spend several days in the hospital to undergo tests, treatment, and what not. I was later in the lobby of the hospital, and in great distress I turned to the Lord of the Worlds and prayed fervently that may He make my father better. Then I went to a cafe in the hospital to eat a snack. Suddenly I saw my father walking quickly toward me. He told me he had been frantically searching for me, because he had just been discharged! By the grace of Allah, we were in the hospital for just barely ONE HOUR.

So I definitely believe in faith healing. Surah al-Fatiha is also known as Surah ash-Shifa (The Cure), and it is used as an incantation to relieve physical as well as spiritual illness. This is why some of the Sahaba on a journey recited Surah al Fatiha to cure a tribal person who has been stung by a deadly scorpion and was about to die from the fatal wound. But as a result of reciting Surah Ash-Shifa for him, he was miraculously cured, and Rasoolullah (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) approved of this, even taking some of the sheep that was given as reward to the Sahaba.
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- Qatada -
05-03-2007, 05:36 PM
:wasalamex


Maasha Allaah thats amazing bro talha :) i've noticed it works alot too, and the praise is for Allaah who sent the Qur'an as a mercy for us.



:salamext:
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Snowflake
05-04-2007, 10:07 AM
MashaAllah!

I can tell you that praying does indeed work. If I or anyone else has a headache, I recite surah Al-Fatiha 7 times and blow on their head or blow on my hands and wipe over my head. There is an almost instant relief from pain. SubhanAllah!

The other thing is reciting Ayatul-Kursi. I recite it for protection when I feel fear or my son feels scared at night. The fear is immediately replaced by calmness.

I remember when I was driving once. I'd always recite Ayatul-Kursi. But that particular day I'd forgotten. Anyhow as it happened, I remembered while I was driving and recited it. A few seconds later, the lights changed and I had just drove forward when I heard a mighty bang behind me. I stopped and looked back to see that a car had come through the red lights and crashed into the bus behind me, missing me by a few feet. If I'd been a bit slower it would've crashed right into me. Alhumdulillah. I know Allah had protected me. :phew
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IbnAbdulHakim
05-04-2007, 10:16 AM
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh

in London the top physicians and doctors all came to the conclusion that my cousin will bleed to death when giving birth, the chances of avoiding this seemed 0. They said the only way to prevent this is to cut her womb and even then its likely she might die.

So we all prayed for her, and Alhamdulillah hirabbil alameen , praise be to the one who surely watches over everything, she is as healthy as a normal mother and they didnt even need to cut the womb, however she did lose her child.

Is this not a miracle? Even the doctors are shocked.


Alhamdulillah

btw this is really recent...
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Malaikah
05-04-2007, 10:16 AM
:sl:

When I was a lot younger I used to wake up from sleep in the middle of the night in a really weird way- I think I must have been half asleep or something, but the point was that I was always in a state of serious panic but for no real reason, I just used to wake up like that.

When it used to happen before I was a teenager, I used to go to my mum and she used to read surat al-fatiha with me, and I would feel better... although I can't really remember those instances much...

When I was in my early teens and it happened, I used to stay in bed and read surat al-fatiha my self, and, subhannallah, instant relief! The intense panic and fear would just go before I even finished.

Alhamdulilah... it hasn't happened in many years though.
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------
05-04-2007, 10:18 AM
:salamext:

Dunno whether this is healing through prayer or a miracle or both...but my dad had an operation...and whilst he was having it at midnight-ish...me and mum and people were at home reciting Surah Yaseen.

After the operation was finished, the doctors were shocked how dad survived...because...chek this...there was a 98% chance that he WASN'T going to survive...

Subhaan Allaah... Allaahu Akbar.
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IbnAbdulHakim
05-04-2007, 10:20 AM
jazakAllah khiar bro talha, that is amazing mashaAllah!


same with the rest,

Alhamdulillah Allah is protecting us all
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poga
05-04-2007, 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Opethian
There have been many scientific experiments on this subject, and they have shown that prayer does not help at all. The reason for these claims is a confirmation bias. You see, one time you pray, and nothing happens, another time you pray, and something good happens. Which occurances are you going to remember? Do you hear christians saying, I once prayed for something, and it didn't happen! No, the chances of praying for something and actually receiving it are set (depending on the natural likeliness of the occurance of what you are praying for). If you pray for something which has a good chance of happening, you are likely to receive what you prayed for. If you pray for something which is impossible, for instance the regrowing of an amputated limb, you will not receive it. Why don't you ever hear stories of Christians regrowing an amputated limb by praying for it it? Simple, it's impossible, and prayers have no effect. It is only in cases where it is possible for the event which you are praying for, to happen naturally, that it can occur that you pray for something and receive it. When you pray for someone to get better, and he/she gets better, this person has simply gotten better because of his body's healing process and medicine. The fact that you prayed for him/her to get better and it actually happening, are unrelated.
:sl:In New Scientist 8 apr 2006
The headline was water's quantum secret
based upon the book by masaru emoto he stated in his book after many test he have prove that water changes its molecules when bad or good word are spoken to it name of his book is secret life of the water he have proven in laboratory condition with photographic evidence that good word and good intention does effect the environment and what is more better word than the word of ALLAH:w:
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tomtomsmom
05-04-2007, 02:50 PM
This isn't exactly a healing story but bear with me.............

Recently my grandfather was diagnosed with lung cancer. Before my very own eyes I saw this man, always strong and proud, turn into a frail weak shell of a man in a matter of weeks. He was in pain and had lost all of his pride. It was a sad sight. The doctors said he had about 6 months. We tried to take him home so he could die in his own home, but that proved to be too much for me to handle. So the dicision was made that he would go into a nursing home. While talking to him about this, I saw my grandfather weep for the very first time in my life. This man, who my whole life, was a solid rock that I could always lean on, was broken like sand blowing in the wind. I did the only thing I could. I prayed for the first time in more years than I can remember. I prayed that he be taken from us so his pain and suffering would end. I prayed that he could have an easy death. Three days later he was gone. He went peacefully in his sleep. I can't really say that God answered my prayers, but I like to think he was listening. And he took my grandfather sooner rather than later so he didn't have to suffer anymore.
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Snowflake
05-04-2007, 05:04 PM
SubhanAllah^ to all posts.

I don't have the source, but I remember reading about a study in which a group of ill people were prayed for and a group that wasn't. The group that was prayed for recovered faster and experienced less set-backs than their counterparts. SubhanAllah!
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جوري
05-04-2007, 05:09 PM
^^ say I posted that study once... I'll try to search my cache for it again =)
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جوري
05-04-2007, 05:19 PM
here it is in JAMA
http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/rep...61/21/2529.pdf
:w:
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Snowflake
05-04-2007, 05:45 PM
^jazakAllah khair sis :statisfie

luv u!
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جوري
05-04-2007, 05:58 PM
My pleasure sweet sis...
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Abu yahya
05-04-2007, 06:21 PM
:sl:

This may not be directly related but read this concerning the health that Allaah gives his righteous slaves, even in extremely old age:

Shaykh Muhammad al Banna (hafidhahullaah-from saudi) "continues to fast Mondays and Thursdays as well as three days of every month – the 13th, 14th, and 15th (of the month) in accordance with the Sunnah - despite his great age. The Shaikh is very humble - he loves the students of knowledge and welcomes them as though they were his own children. The Shaikh always serves his guest before sitting and eating himself. This continues even at his age of 89 years. And the Shaikh continues to make Hajj. "

They said about Shaykh Ibn Baaz (rahimahullaah) who was infilicted with an oesophagus infection which eventually lead to death that "When the pain was very bad, it could only be seen from a change in his face, and all he would do was put his hand on his chest where it hurt." Even the illness that lead to his death never caused him to scream or cry in pain, may Allaah have mercy upon him.

" Allâh blessed him with a sharp mind, and he was not afflicted with senility. Even the slight forgetfulness that came to him with old age did not affect his ability to issue fatwas or to call evidence to mind and focus on things and understand them, even though he had entered his ninetieth year. A few days before he died, I asked him about a woman who had died before fulfilling her obligation to do sa'ee (running between al-Safa' and al-Marwah as part of Hajj or 'Umrah) - should her son do this on her behalf? He said, "You cannot do anything about death, it is inevitable. Her son can do sa'ee on her behalf, just as he can do Hajj on her behalf." Then he added a qualifier: "But he has to be in a state of ritual ihraam when he does sa'ee on her behalf." I said, "So he should enter ihraam for 'umrah and do tawaaf and sa'ee, and before he cuts his hair he should do sa'ee on behalf of his mother?" He said, "Or before he does his own 'umrah after he has entered ihraam." This precision of thought stayed with him until the very end of his life. "

Subhanallaah, giving such complex rulings in such old age, look how Allaah preserves their minds. By the way he was 89 yrs old when he passed away. This is not a something normal you see happening everyday, most people's memories and minds become very weak in old age.

The examples of healing by prayer, or extra ordinary health in circumstances where people are normally weak, is a clear indication that faith in the heart affects the body and mind in a positive manner. And may Allaah reward the brothers and sisters for posting the above incidents, they were really inspiring mashaa'Allaah, Allaah responds to the righteous slaves so this is an indication of your sincere intentions, may Allaah increase you all in goodness.

:w:
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ranma1/2
05-10-2007, 06:59 AM
Originally Posted by poga
:sl:In New Scientist 8 apr 2006
The headline was water's quantum secret
based upon the book by masaru emoto he stated in his book after many test he have prove that water changes its molecules when bad or good word are spoken to it name of his book is secret life of the water he have proven in laboratory condition with photographic evidence that good word and good intention does effect the environment and what is more better word than the word of ALLAH:w:
I think i remember somethign about that experiment and as i recall it cant be replicated. I think i remeber seeing it on tv too but to my knowledge no one can replicate it.
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ranma1/2
05-10-2007, 07:03 AM
as for have i witnessed? No i havent. And to my knowledge as mentioned before any "witnessed" healings are mostly confirmation bias. Not to mention that people do get better for reasons we foten dont understand. or misdaignosis. or others...
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ranma1/2
05-10-2007, 07:08 AM
There might be reason in the quran, but if you believe in prayer healing then why go to the doctor at all? Why not jsut pray when you feel bad or someone else you know does? WHy not pray to have better eyesight rather than wear glasses?
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***Umm-e-kulsum
05-10-2007, 08:31 AM
yeh sis Dua works all the time!!!!
i have a little book of prayers with DUA's for any miseries or troubles when im in any sort of pain the first thing i do i grab my book but Alhamdulillah it works everytime so it definetly works!!!!
also when my dad was really ill he was in hospital and i cudnt sleep with worry all i did was pray and agen alhamdulillah he was better within a week!!!
i think patience and prayer is all u can do at times of worry or troubles!!!
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AmarFaisal
05-10-2007, 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
There might be reason in the quran, but if you believe in prayer healing then why go to the doctor at all? Why not jsut pray when you feel bad or someone else you know does? WHy not pray to have better eyesight rather than wear glasses?
Dear sister,

Whatever happens, good or bad , it is from Allah, and for a reason.

When I was going through my miscarriage, a lady gave me a du'a (prayer) to read to save my baby.I read it all the time for 3 days. However, I had a miscarriage. But I beleive that Allah had a reason for that and I trust my God and beleive that it was better for me. Alhamdulillah

When I was in labor, my mother gave me a du'a to make my pains less. I read that du'a morning, evenings, everytime I remmembered n in my pain. However, I did feel the pain as it is (though an epidural made it less later). But I beleive n my mother tells me to say Alhamdulillah, as it was safe.

The point is, we see only our side of the story. There is another side, which Allah knows best and we need to say "Alhamdulillah" in all our good times n bad.

"God helps those who help themselves"

We cannot just sit n say that if I feel hungry I will pray n Allah will send me food. We have to work for it. Similarly is "Shifa'a", or health:)
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Snowflake
05-10-2007, 10:13 AM
The point is, we see only our side of the story. There is another side, which Allah knows best and we need to say "Alhamdulillah" in all our good times n bad.

We cannot just sit n say that if I feel hungry I will pray n Allah will send me food. We have to work for it. Similarly is "Shifa'a", or health
awww mashaAllah, I agree with ya 100% :)

May Allah replace your loss with rewards and blessings inshaAllah. Ameen.
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ranma1/2
05-10-2007, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by AmarFaisal
Dear sister,

Whatever happens, good or bad , it is from Allah, and for a reason.

When I was going through my miscarriage, a lady gave me a du'a (prayer) to read to save my baby.I read it all the time for 3 days. However, I had a miscarriage. But I beleive that Allah had a reason for that and I trust my God and beleive that it was better for me. Alhamdulillah

When I was in labor, my mother gave me a du'a to make my pains less. I read that du'a morning, evenings, everytime I remmembered n in my pain. However, I did feel the pain as it is (though an epidural made it less later). But I beleive n my mother tells me to say Alhamdulillah, as it was safe.

The point is, we see only our side of the story. There is another side, which Allah knows best and we need to say "Alhamdulillah" in all our good times n bad.

"God helps those who help themselves"

We cannot just sit n say that if I feel hungry I will pray n Allah will send me food. We have to work for it. Similarly is "Shifa'a", or health:)
So why pray? If god has a reason to do what it does then do you think you can change gods mind? We shouldnt have to let god know when we need something, i would expect an all knowing being would know when we need something.
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NobleMuslimUK
05-10-2007, 01:57 PM
:sl:
This is a tricky subject as the ones that really believe in prayer will get its benefits and only those people understand deep in their heart the power of prayer. Some famous atheist scholars claim its all down to the law of attraction and that the universe responds to our feelings and that all we need to do is concentrate on what we want and seek it and the universe will respond positively and if our mindframe is of impatient then the universe will respond negatively, also have patience and also show gratitude. Islam teaches pray only to Allah SWT, since only He can help and provide, Islam also teaches to have patience and show gratitude towards Allah SWT.

I can also vouch for this that prayers has many benefits, and thats prayers to Allah SWT, not other false man made up deities.
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islamirama
05-10-2007, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
So why pray? If god has a reason to do what it does then do you think you can change gods mind? We shouldnt have to let god know when we need something, i would expect an all knowing being would know when we need something.
Why cook, if reating raw stuff gives the same stuff to sustain you? Why buy so many clothes, when one pair is enough to cover you? why build a house when one day it will come back down? Why ask your parents for something as a kid when you know they will give it to you anyway?

Everything has a reason for it. Prayer is a way for the servant to connec to his Lord and communicate. Allah doesn't need us or anything, but it is rather we who are in need of him. Things are not always simple and straight. Allah loves that we return to him and repent when we sin, that we ask him when we are in need and turn to him for everything. Why pray if you are infertile? And yet thru prayers miracles like infertile couple having kids has happened.

There are two thinigs that come into play. Qadr (predestination) and free will. Somethings are already determined for you while others you have the free will to choose. Ex: the amount of sustance you will get in this life is predetermined, how you go about getting (steal or work hard) that is your free will.

God wouldn't ask you to pray and there would be no point praying if he didn't accept your prayers and give you what you want.
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ranma1/2
05-10-2007, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by islamirama
..Prayer is a way for the servant to connec to his Lord and communicate.
...
There are two thinigs that come into play. Qadr (predestination) and free will. Somethings are already determined for you while others you have the free will to choose. Ex: the amount of sustance you will get in this life is predetermined, how you go about getting (steal or work hard) that is your free will.

God wouldn't ask you to pray and there would be no point praying if he didn't accept your prayers and give you what you want.
The imporntatn part is if god is all knowing then there is no need for a lines of communitcation. God knows what you need. Also god decideds what you will get regardless of what you want. So by prayer are you trying to change gods mind?
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NobleMuslimUK
05-11-2007, 02:41 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
The imporntatn part is if god is all knowing then there is no need for a lines of communitcation. God knows what you need. Also god decideds what you will get regardless of what you want. So by prayer are you trying to change gods mind?
Yes Allah almighty knows what we need and what we will ask for, but we dont. By asking Allah SWT for what we need is a sign of strong faith, because that way we understand only Allah can give and take, so we show we dont rely or ask from people when they themselves are dependant on Allah SWT.
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Dhulqarnaeen
05-11-2007, 06:38 AM
Originally Posted by Diesel1907
Christians always claim that their priests or preachers are able to cure or heal people by just touching and saying a simple prayer. I've also heard from a lot of christians how their family members got cured from serious diseases after spending a few nights praying. How about our religion, islam? Does anyone have any personal experience where someone with a serious disease got healed with help of prayer?
first we should know, syaithon will do everything to deviate muslim. And theyre genius. They will do everything till a muslim fall inyto sins and being with them in hell. Sometimes they work like this. First they appeared in some strange fringtening appearance, and they show their shape to someone who have weak iman and tauhid. And from this situation they want to deviate muslims, and so muslims afraid to them which is haram for us to afraid to syaithon, cause nothing we may afraid of except Allah azza wa jalla. Till something happen like in Indonesia. Some muslims worship grave, trees while they still say "Laa ilaaha Ilallah". Its because they believe syaithon can give manfaat.
Also this is happened with those Christians. Sometimes syaithon make one of the christian sick, and then this patient came to a preacher, and then this preacher pretending he curing them, and finally theyre cured. We should know, sometimes these preachers have somekinda appointment with jins (In Islam we cal them Kahin), and these jins is in his controls. So the appointment says like this "If the jin (who stay in the patients body) came to the preacher who own them, they have to run away". So when the jins go, this patient became health again. something like this happen, and from this the christian believe that theyre in the right religion. And it can affects muslim who have strong iman. Its the syaithons final target, so christian stay in their deviation and muslims can get influenced and murtad. You can read in kitab of Syaikh Wahid Abdussalam al Baly which talks about jin and how to cure sickness from their disturbance. And the other kitab of ulama salaf.

SO how about in Islam? Theres hadith that said theres some sahabah (companions of Rasulullah) cured someone who got stinged by scorpion just with read "Al Fatihah". And many happens to salih people they just read Quran to cure the sickness they have. Islam also have medicine that can cure all sickness. Like habbas saudah which Rasulullah said "In Habbas saudah theres a medicine for all sickness except death". Also in honey bee, zam-zam, hijamah. But the interesting point is those medicines included to "medicines", and only Quran Allah said in Quran it self as a "healer". Its interesting. But its true and happened to some ulama salaf too. Such Ibnul Qoyyim, in his kitab he ever explained that he only read Quran to heal his sickness, and he became healed. and also to some ulama such as Ibnul Mubarak, etc. Rahimakumullah.
and I ever had xplanation from my teacher who is taking Doctor in Fiqh in Madinah. He explained if we believe truely to Quran, then it can cure us from sickness and its often happen to sahabah. But to us, who doesnt have a believe as strong as them, its great if we combine Quran and medicine from sunnah and also "Du'a" " :) . And thats enough insha Allah.
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Trumble
05-13-2007, 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by NobleMuslimUK
Some famous atheist scholars claim its all down to the law of attraction and that the universe responds to our feelings and that all we need to do is concentrate on what we want and seek it and the universe will respond positively and if our mindframe is of impatient then the universe will respond negatively, also have patience and also show gratitude.
Which 'famous atheist scholars' are these? The 'law of attraction' is popularist nonsense meant to part the gullible from the money needed to buy 'your dreams can come true without effort' books. Some people promote positive thought and attitude, which is obviously a good thing, and it does seem that if people believe they will get better, that is they have 'faith' in the healer, it may well help them. Nothing supernatural there though, many people have been helped to recover from supposedly terminal illness by having 'faith' only in themselves.

I can't find the quote, unfortunately, but I recall reading something from the Dalai Lama on faith healing. His comments were to the effect that in seventy yeras or so he had never come across a demonstrable incident of it. While many people go to him for healing, his usual response is that he can't but that if the person concerned does find a real faith healer could they let him know so he could see them about his skin condition! :statisfie
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Zman
05-13-2007, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by Diesel1907
Christians always claim that their priests or preachers are able to cure or heal people by just touching and saying a simple prayer. I've also heard from a lot of christians how their family members got cured from serious diseases after spending a few nights praying. How about our religion, islam? Does anyone have any personal experience where someone with a serious disease got healed with help of prayer?
:sl:

One of my mothers friends had Diabetes, and one day it inexplicably vanished. Her MD was very puzzled.

I heard of a man in my community who's cancer vanished also, without medical treatment...
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abu abdurrahman
05-13-2007, 03:46 PM
A lady my mother knows had severe burns over the whole of one of her arms. Skin would reform over it in pateches but they never came together to form a strong surface. Ihe individually growing patches of skin would always disintegrate before joining.

The sister then decided to recite the Qur'aan for shifa as well as doing du'aa to Allah... at her next appointment, as the bandages were taken off, the dermatologists couldnt believe the fact that most of her arm had grown back its skin and retained, without any changes in treatment.
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Opethian
05-24-2007, 02:13 PM
The very fact that people of almost every major religion claim to have had medical or other miracles occur to them by praying, should tell you something about the validity of these claims. Also, the fact that every day, people of your own religion, and of other religions, pray for miracles like this to occurn, without them getting answered, should tell you some more. I think it is nothing more than arrogance, false hope, and vanity, to think that a deity would answer your personal prayers, and let other people of different faiths, or maybe even the same, wallow in their suffering without answering their prayers. If someone's prayers are supposedly answered, was it because of something this person did, because this person is "better" than others? If it was, can you explain how and why, and if it wasn't, how does this 'prayer answering' differ from the results we would expect from naturalistic probabilities? One of the most funny examples is soccer players praying to their god before starting a match. How foolish to think a deity, if it would exist, would use his omnipotence to assist a mere human, among the millions of followers of this faith, to win a stupid game. If there are 2 followers of the same faith, one on each team, and they both pray, who should win? The concept of prayer is simply ridiculous and the natural result of the importance most humans attach to themselves, seeing themselves as something special among the rest.
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Abu yahya
05-25-2007, 07:44 PM
No offence but I think from an atheistic "logical" point of view you've completely missed the point.

You can not prove for sure whether or not an incident occured as a result of prayer or not: it's a matter of FAITH. If you believe it was as a result of your prayer, then there's no way anyone can prove you wrong. If you believe it wasn't and it was just the laws of probablility etc then nobody can prove you're wrong too.

Therefore the statement: "I think it is nothing more than arrogance, false hope, and vanity, to think that a deity would answer your personal prayers", is in reality arrogance by believing you're right and everyone else is wrong, false hope that you're right, when you know you cannot prove your position in reality, and vain...well do i really need to explain which part of the statement is vain?

"One of the most funny examples is soccer players ....to win a stupid game"

"The concept of prayer is simply ridiculous and the natural result of the importance most humans attach to themselves, seeing themselves as something special among the rest."

Maybe the stereotype that all atheists are stressed, stubborn, arrogant haters of life is true? This is why nobody bothers to talk with you people, learn some manners please. If you want to discuss whether healing through prayer is true, then give me some proof that prayers can't POSSIBLY have an affect on healing/anything else, instead of beating around the bush. And keep it civilised, i'm not gonna enter into a name calling contest,and the admin wouldn't allow it anyway.

I look forward to an interesting discussion. Sorry if I offended you or anybody else.

Peace
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ranma1/2
05-26-2007, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by Opethian
The very fact that people of almost every major religion claim to have had medical or other miracles occur to them by praying, should tell you something about the validity of these claims.
.

I think this is a very good point. If as many religions believe that their god is the god then why do other people claim to have miracles?

Originally Posted by Opethian
Also, the fact that every day, people of your own religion, and of other religions, pray for miracles like this to occurn, without them getting answered, should tell you some more.
.

This pretty much goes into the point ealier of confirmation bias.

Originally Posted by Opethian
I think it is nothing more than arrogance, false hope, and vanity, to think that a deity would answer your personal prayers, and let other people of different faiths, or maybe even the same, wallow in their suffering without answering their prayers..
I disagree. Arrogance? No not in general since most people dont think about it that way. I just see the ilogic of prayer. If as many gods are deemed to be all knowing then there is no reason to pray to a god since it already knows what the problems are. Also they tend to justify when their prayers are not answered by saying its gods will. So this then brings up problems of why are they trying to change gods mind, its not like they are actually having any effect since god alread knows and its plan is not their plan and the best they can then hope for is that their hopes match gods plan.


Originally Posted by Opethian
If someone's prayers are supposedly answered, was it because of something this person did, because this person is "better" than others? If it was, can you explain how and why, and if it wasn't, how does this 'prayer answering' differ from the results we would expect from naturalistic probabilities?
.
very good question and i would like other to answer this.

Originally Posted by Opethian
One of the most funny examples is soccer players praying to their god before starting a match. How foolish to think a deity, if it would exist, would use his omnipotence to assist a mere human, among the millions of followers of this faith, to win a stupid game. .
what do other theists think about this? Is it petty to get god to cheat for your team ?

Originally Posted by Opethian
The concept of prayer is simply ridiculous and the natural result of the importance most humans attach to themselves, seeing themselves as something special among the rest.
Reply

ranma1/2
05-26-2007, 06:12 PM
Originally Posted by Abu yahya
No offence but I think from an atheistic "logical" point of view you've completely missed the point.

You can not prove for sure whether or not an incident occured as a result of prayer or not:
prove, no. but we can show evidence for what is likely. Likewise we can not prove that zues didnt do it either.


Originally Posted by Abu yahya
it's a matter of FAITH. If you believe it was as a result of your prayer, then there's no way anyone can prove you wrong. If you believe it wasn't and it was just the laws of probablility etc then nobody can prove you're wrong too.
Only for those that dont want to look at reality. Reality shows us that there is no evidence for magical healing. The evidence that is available shows a tendency for people to have confirmation bias among other things.
To date, no one has ever regrown a lost limb. Today people have had remissions of cancer, this happens and many times the doctors dont have clue why. This happens in christianity, islam, judism, bahai, buddhism, atheism, agnostism, among other belief systems.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
If you want to discuss whether healing through prayer is true, then give me some proof that prayers can't POSSIBLY have an affect on healing/anything else, instead of beating around the bush. And keep it civilised, i'm not gonna enter into a name calling contest,and the admin wouldn't allow it anyway.

I look forward to an interesting discussion. Sorry if I offended you or anybody else.

Peace
Remember its not proof but evidence. and their is no evidednce that prayer invokes a supernatural power. There is evidence that prayer can have some psycological effects but thats a..
Reply

poga
05-28-2007, 03:57 PM
:sl: Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : I angered him so much with my spiteful swear
He was fuming in madness like a man on fire
His pulsation went high while his energy was low
For his live heart my swear word was the deadly blow

Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : I calmed her so much with my peaceful prayer
My comforting words removed her dreadful fear
She came to her senses and told me a tale what defies all logic
She spoke of KAFFIRS who Say's the miraculous healing of Jesus was his articulous trick:w:
Reply

learningislam
05-28-2007, 05:34 PM
:salamext:

Anyone ever witnessed healing through prayer?
I did..........and i do believe in that.

btw anyone remember, we have a sister here at Li who was suffering from brain tumor......and the doc told her that she would die in few weeks.......And we all prayed for her.....and then Alhumdulillah.......her other post came up that her tumor size had reduced ............

:wasalamex
Reply

Abu yahya
05-28-2007, 10:01 PM
prove, no. but we can show evidence for what is likely. Likewise we can not prove that zues didnt do it either.
Exactly my point, why call prayer ridiculous, stupid etc, as Opethian did, when you accept that there's a chance it could be true? And even if there was no chance, still dont you think you should respect others' beliefs? And the fact that you repeated one of Opethians' quotes regarding prayer being ridiculous to conclude one of your above posts shows that you agree with him, but don't you think this is illogical (because it could be true) and disrepectful?

Secondly, now that we've agreed upon the above point, this must mean that you also agree that it's a matter of personal faith, in which case the matter is settled: There's no definate answer, everyone must choose his/her belief and everyone else should respect that. Is this not the conclusion based on the premises we have agreed upon? Is it logical to disrespect someone else and say they're wrong and stupid, when you accept that they could be right?

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
it's a matter of FAITH. If you believe it was as a result of your prayer, then there's no way anyone can prove you wrong. If you believe it wasn't and it was just the laws of probablility etc then nobody can prove you're wrong too.

Only for those that dont want to look at reality. Reality shows us that there is no evidence for magical healing. The evidence that is available shows a tendency for people to have confirmation bias among other things.
There is no evidence for magical healing? I am surprised by your argument considering your affirmation of the first point I mentioned, for one could easily respond by saying "there's no evidence against magical healing"? This is the whole point, you cannot prove for or against, so why are you so certain of your position? I thought you already affirmed this in your first statement anyway?

The evidence available shows confirmation bias - To which evidence are you referring specifically, and what do you mean by "confirmation bias"?

To date, no one has ever regrown a lost limb. Today people have had remissions of cancer, this happens and many times the doctors dont have clue why. This happens in christianity, islam, judism, bahai, buddhism, atheism, agnostism, among other belief systems.
No, no one has regrown a lost limb as a result of prayer, but if they did then wouldn't the test be over? Everybody would accept that God existed and everybody would worship Him, there's be no point left in creating us? Why don't God just come down right now and everybody see him, that way everyone would believe in Him, there'd be no point left. This is the problem, in order for you to accept prayer you want PROOF, in order to reject it EVIDENCE is sufficient. And it's known that evidence can be provided for and against prayer, but proof cannot be provided for either, so as a result you demand proof for prayer, but only evidence against prayer, in order to uphold your position.

and their is no evidednce that prayer invokes a supernatural power. There is evidence that prayer can have some psycological effects but thats a..
Likewise there is no evidence that prayer doesn't invoke a supernatural power. If you're going to respond by saying that prayers aren't answered sometimes, then I say that prayers are answered sometimes, bringing us back to the same point, you cant prove for or against.

Regarding the psychological effects, that's interesting. Because it shows that prayer has some good effects even if God doesn't exist so why are atheists so sternly against people praying? From a logical point of view one SHOULD pray because it benefits, wouldn't you agree?(looking at prayer as an action in and of its ownself that is)

Remember its not proof but evidence.
And I've spoken about the two but just to summarise. There's no proof for or against, that you agreed to. You claimed that the evidence is against prayer being true, therefore the likelyhood is that it's not true. I showed that this is false, and in reality evidence against prayer is simply bias arguments, like saying there's no evidence prayer calls on the supernatural, even though the opposite could easily be used as evidence. And if you examine the arguments you can think of against prayer, you'll find they can be reversed into arguments for prayer, and in such a case the evidence is 50:50, so one has the right to choose.

And in reality I don't think this should be so much a discussion about evidence as it should be of opinion. Because if I bring you evidence for healing through prayer, as individuals in this thread have done , it can be interpreted in two ways: It is healing through prayer, or it isnt. Neither can be proven and as such the choice is on the individual.

I dont mean any offence with anything I said.

Peace
Reply

ranma1/2
05-29-2007, 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by Abu yahya
Exactly my point, why call prayer ridiculous, stupid etc, as Opethian did,
While I may not call them stupid, although the mind is easily influenced even by placibo effects, i do see that people tend to ignore or justify why or why not prayers/wishes are "granted".
Originally Posted by Abu yahya
when you accept that there's a chance it could be true?
I dont accept that there is a likely chance that it is true based on the evidence.
There is a chance that this entire existence is actually the dream of a plastic bucket... there is a chance... but there is no evidence of this....

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
And even if there was no chance, still dont you think you should respect others' beliefs?
I have actually seen another debate about respecting another religion recently in another forum. Im curious what do you mean by this? I personally wont prevent you from your beliefs. But respect? Please explain what you mean specifically by this.


Originally Posted by Abu yahya
And the fact that you repeated one of Opethians' quotes regarding prayer being ridiculous to conclude one of your above posts shows that you agree with him, but don't you think this is illogical (because it could be true) and disrepectful?
Once again we could be the dream of a bucket... and please lets begin with what do you mean by respect and why should we respect a belief.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
Secondly, now that we've agreed upon the above point, this must mean that you also agree that it's a matter of personal faith, in which case the matter is settled: There's no definate answer, everyone must choose his/her belief and everyone else should respect that. Is this not the conclusion based on the premises we have agreed upon? Is it logical to disrespect someone else and say they're wrong and stupid, when you accept that they could be right?
We havent agreed on the point above. And its also a matter of reality. So no this is not the conclusion we have agreed upon. I wont call you stupid in a insulting way but i will say that you are wrong. You also havent answered our questions about prayer.

Why do you think you can influence god?
Why does god not regrow limbs?
Why do you or others go to doctors when prayer works?
Why do other faiths have "healing through prayer"? Doesnt this contradict your own beliefs?

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
There is no evidence for magical healing? I am surprised by your argument considering your affirmation of the first point I mentioned, for one could easily respond by saying "there's no evidence against magical healing"?
IM sorry what point did i/we affirm?
We are looking at reality. In general when someone makes a positive claim evidence if needed. Noone has provided any evidence that there is any magic to prayers. We provide evience you dont.
Given the idea that your prayers work because your god exists seems to fail in light of that other religions claim the same thing and have just as many "miracles"

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
This is the whole point, you cannot prove for or against, so why are you so certain of your position? I thought you already affirmed this in your first statement anyway?
Prove no, as stated before. But we can show what is likely and what isnt. It is not likely that prayer has any magical powers. As a matter of the evidence it is extremely unlikely. Now if you would like to do a prayer experiement please sincerly pray for someone that has horrible vision and ask for there eyes to be healed. Lets see how long it takes someone to go from horrible near sighted to 20/20 vision.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
The evidence available shows confirmation bias - To which evidence are you referring specifically, and what do you mean by "confirmation bias"?
People forget, ignore, or justify why the 1000s of prayers/wishes that they make that dont come true. They only tend to remember the ones that did.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
No, no one has regrown a lost limb as a result of prayer, but if they did then wouldn't the test be over?
Most likely. god really should do this it would help its credibility. Of course which god would be the next question.

Everybody would accept that God existed and everybody would worship Him, there's be no point left in creating us? Why don't God just come down right now and everybody see him, that way everyone would believe in Him, there'd be no point left.
[/QUOTE]
Which god?
I doubt everyone would still worship god. The popular ones all seem pretty petty, selfish and arrogant.
There is pleanty of "point" to life. Did jesus, mohamd or noah have a point to their life after they knew god existed?
Originally Posted by Abu yahya
This is the problem, in order for you to accept prayer you want PROOF
no we want evidence.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
, in order to reject it EVIDENCE is sufficient.
no we just want evidence for prayer working.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
Likewise there is no evidence that prayer doesn't invoke a supernatural power.
There is no evidence of a supernatural power. There is no evidence that we are the dream of a pink flying picnik basket. There is no evidence that i am god. There is no evidence that prayer has any magical effect.
And with your line of thinking ..
there is no evidence that i am not god. There is no evidence that you are not a murderer. there is no evidence that we are not the dream of a pink picnic basket.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
If you're going to respond by saying that prayers aren't answered sometimes, then I say that prayers are answered sometimes, bringing us back to the same point, you cant prove for or against.
Actually that brings us back to confirmation bias. And i would say prayers are never answered although on a rare ocasion people will delude themselves and think chance was a gods answer.

You still havent answered my question as to why you think you can influence god.

We are not trying to prove but show the likelyhood. And please answer our questions.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
Regarding the psychological effects, that's interesting. Because it shows that prayer has some good effects even if God doesn't exist so why are atheists so sternly against people praying? From a logical point of view one SHOULD pray because it benefits, wouldn't you agree?(looking at prayer as an action in and of its ownself that is)
Im not against people praying, but i will call BS when people say it has magical effects. And logically we should all pray to the pink picnic basket for our wishes to become true.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
And I've spoken about the two but just to summarise. There's no proof for or against, that you agreed to.
I will agree there is no proof of anything. period. So drop this concept and get back to a more clear discussion. Why do you seem to not comment on evidence? Is it because there is no evidence for prayer having magical powers?

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
You claimed that the evidence is against prayer being true, therefore the likelyhood is that it's not true. I showed that this is false...
No you havent. You have constantly used by argument though.
Originally Posted by Abu yahya
, and in reality evidence against prayer is simply bias arguments, like saying there's no evidence prayer calls on the supernatural, even though the opposite could easily be used as evidence.
We are not defending negatives. You should no the flaw in your logic.
We are saying that if prayer has a magical effect you should have evidence of this. There is none. However there is tons of evidence that healing has natural means. There is tons of evidence that healing has a natural explanation.
Originally Posted by Abu yahya
And if you examine the arguments you can think of against prayer, you'll find they can be reversed into arguments for prayer, and in such a case the evidence is 50:50, so one has the right to choose.
No the evidence is not 50:50. Although you always have the right to choose you can still choose wrong. There is evidence that "healing" occurs natually and no evidence that magic is envolved.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
And in reality I don't think this should be so much a discussion about evidence as it should be of opinion.
Because if I bring you evidence for healing through prayer, as individuals in this thread have done , it can be interpreted in two ways: It is healing through prayer, or it isnt. Neither can be proven and as such the choice is on the individual.
Looking at this discussion scientifily it is about evidence. It seems you like to jump from proof to evidence selectivly. If we are trying to show if prayer works magically then we need evidence. And as stated before we are not concerned about proof but what is likely and what is supported.
Reply

ranma1/2
05-29-2007, 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by learningislam
:salamext:


I did..........and i do believe in that.

btw anyone remember, we have a sister here at Li who was suffering from brain tumor......and the doc told her that she would die in few weeks.......And we all prayed for her.....and then Alhumdulillah.......her other post came up that her tumor size had reduced ............

:wasalamex
And of course she didnt use medicine or tried to get it reduced. Of course it is known that sometimes they will reduce themselves and somethings are yet unknown how. Of course it could have been a misdiagnoses as well.

Im going with the first one myself.
Reply

Abu yahya
05-29-2007, 11:23 AM
Okay this is getting realy long winded, let's concentrate on one thing at a time.

Why do you think you can influence god?
God has decreed everything that's gonna happen until the day of judgement before He created creation. Then why pray? Because prayer can change the decree. But wait, I though I just said that everything has been decreed until the day of judgement, so how can prayer change that? Because it's aready been decreed that so and so will pray and the prayer will change the decree from what it would've originally been.

But wait, then this means that everything has bee decreed, so why bother doin anything at all? Because we as muslims believe that this life is a mixture of the decree and free will. Our actions are not completely as a result of the decree, neither competely as a result of our own free will, rather they're a result of both. But what does that mean?

It means that we have free will to do whatever we want to do, but God knows what we're going to do, and He's written that in a book before he created creation, so he knows everything that's gonna happen, and therefore it's as though He's decreed it (if that's the correct term to apply to this ).

When someone prays out of their own free will, the decree changes from what it woud've originally been without the prayer, but it was already known to God that you would pray and it was all already decreed, we never changed God's mind from what He'd decreed for us (at the moment of prayer), we only changed what would've originally been decreed, but does that mean we influenced God? No, because God knows whether you're gonna pray or not and then based upon that He's already decided before he created us whether or not He's going to answer that prayer by decreeing something else, or leave things the same. Therefore we never changed His mind with the prayer, because even though He knew we were gonna pray, it was still up to Him to change the decree accordingly or not, remember, up to Him not us.

Let's start with this issue, seeing as you requested me to respond to this twice in your last post. Sorry if I've been unclear above, it's hard to explain in writing.

Peace
Reply

Abu yahya
05-29-2007, 11:30 AM
Sorry, I just read my post again and found that one of the paragraphs is not very clear. When I say we can't influence God what I mean is that when we pray, He makes the decision as to whether or not to change the decree accordingly (before He created creation), ie we don't have any participation in deciding what to decree, God does.

But if you mean by "influencing God", whether or not prayer influences God, then yes, we believe that prayer can change the decree, but it was all decided before creation was created. So if this is your meaning then yes, we can influence God in the Decree, but as I said above only He decides whether or not to change the decree as a result of prayer, not us.

Sorry for the confusion. Peace
Reply

ranma1/2
05-29-2007, 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by Abu yahya
Sorry, I just read my post again and found that one of the paragraphs is not very clear. When I say we can't influence God what I mean is that when we pray, He makes the decision as to whether or not to change the decree accordingly (before He created creation), ie we don't have any participation in deciding what to decree, God does.

But if you mean by "influencing God", whether or not prayer influences God, then yes, we believe that prayer can change the decree, but it was all decided before creation was created. So if this is your meaning then yes, we can influence God in the Decree, but as I said above only He decides whether or not to change the decree as a result of prayer, not us.

Sorry for the confusion. Peace
SO god knows all and you are going against his plan by making him change it?

Or god knows all and wants you to beg?

Or god knows all and only answers petty wishes and refuses to help the hungry, the poor, war etc.. but he will happily help someone that has cancer well maybe not glady only by chance and only along the same chance of it happening naturally?
Reply

Abu yahya
05-30-2007, 12:37 PM
SO god knows all and you are going against his plan by making him change it?
My brother, you have completely misunderstood what I said. I'll try and break it down:

Let's say there's a person (X). He gets cancer. Either it can be decreed that he recovers or he doesn't right. Let's say if he wasn't going to pray, it would've been decreed that he dies from it, and if he did choose to pray he was going to recover from it. The person has free will to do what he chooses. But God knows what he will choose, and therefore before He even created anything He'd already decided what to decree for him based upon what the individual was going to do (pray or not pray).

So we're not going against His plan, rather the prayer is encompassed within His plan. If you mean by "change it" that God changed what would've originally BEEN decreed, then yes, in such a sense you could say we have changed something, but not God's plan, because God's plan is what is actually decreed and that takes account of prayer. And in reality to call it a "change" is incorrect, because that would imply that the plan went from one thing to another, which it didn't, the plan was the same all the way through, it's just that it WOULD have been different(not WAS different) if the person didn't pray.

Or god knows all and wants you to beg?
Yes, we believe that God responds to those who pray to Him/ beg to Him, that's the whole point of prayer. We believe that God responds to those who pray, because they have humbled themselves to Him, and He doesn't respond to those who don't pray due to their arrogance by saying that they don't need Him or woteva. Would you respond to such a person? You give someone life, sustenance everything, and then they turn around and say I don't need you anymore, get lost, would you help such a person? And the proof from the Qur'aan for this is:

"And your Lord has said supplicate to me, I will respond to you. Indeed those who are ARROGANT of my worship will enter Hell in HUMILIATION."

(i.e. those who don't pray due to arrogance-most atheists say we shouldn't beg/pray to God even if He exists, out of their arrogance. P.s. I'm NOT saying you're one of them)

Or god knows all and only answers petty wishes and refuses to help the hungry, the poor, war etc.. but he will happily help someone that has cancer well maybe not glady only by chance and only along the same chance of it happening naturally?
There is a hadeeth (narration from the Prophet Muhammad (saw)) which states that all of mankind was seen from the first of them to the last of them (some were blind, some were deaf etc) and somebody asked God "Why did you not make them all the same?" And God responded "I like to be shown Gratitude". Meaning that the reason why bad things happen to us, is to see whether or not we thank God for the good things, it's part of our test.

Secondly, we believe that on the day of judgement everybody will get what they deserve,as God said in the Qur'aan "There is no oppression on this day", meaning everyone will get what they deserve. So if somebody is poor, that will be taken into account, and the person will not be expected to have done as much as others. And If they were poor and Islaam never came to them, then even less is expected. And what matters is the day of judgement, this life is only short. There's loads of issues connected with this, why is there so much suffering in the world, but I think we're diagressing from the main topic of prayer, we could discuss this in another thread later if you want.

Regarding the second part, that He'll help people not gladly but according to the laws of natural probability, I find it amazing that you say such a thing because there's so many incidents where people are cured despite the chances being extremely low, the laws of probability are actually against them in such an instance. How would you explain that? Are you just going to reject that it takes place, even though there's so many reports?

PS what's your position on fate/free will?

Peace
Reply

poga
05-30-2007, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by poga
:sl: Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : I angered him so much with my spiteful swear
He was fuming in madness like a man on fire
His pulsation went high while his energy was low
For his live heart my swear word was the deadly blow

Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : I calmed her so much with my peaceful prayer
My comforting words removed her dreadful fear
She came to her senses and told me a tale what defies all logic
She spoke of KAFFIRS who Say's the miraculous healing of Jesus was his articulous trick:w:
:sl: if i can infect pain and suffering just by swearing bad words
can i not also heal just by good kindly words and what is best word apart from name of ALLAH
there are such thing as sonar theraphy counselling and music theraphy
the best among them is the last confession from creature to the creator:w:
Reply

ranma1/2
05-30-2007, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by Abu yahya

Let's say there's a person (X). He gets cancer. Either it can be decreed that he recovers or he doesn't right. Let's say if he wasn't going to pray, it would've been decreed that he dies from it, and if he did choose to pray he was going to recover from it. The person has free will to do what he chooses. But God knows what he will choose, and therefore before He even created anything He'd already decided what to decree for him based upon what the individual was going to do (pray or not pray).
Except when person a through person 999zzzzzzzx prays and still die and person 178abbbbb3ss lives then it worked? And when person 1777berrrrr doesnt pray and lives and recovers miracously what is it then?


Originally Posted by Abu yahya
So we're not going against His plan, rather the prayer is encompassed within His plan. If you mean by "change it" that God changed what would've originally BEEN decreed, then yes, in such a sense you could say we have changed something, but not God's plan, because God's plan is what is actually decreed and that takes account of prayer. And in reality to call it a "change" is incorrect, because that would imply that the plan went from one thing to another, which it didn't, the plan was the same all the way through, it's just that it WOULD have been different(not WAS different) if the person didn't pray.

Yes, we believe that God responds to those who pray to Him/ beg to Him, that's the whole point of prayer. We believe that God responds to those who pray, because they have humbled themselves to Him, and He doesn't respond to those who don't pray due to their arrogance by saying that they don't need Him or woteva. Would you respond to such a person? You give someone life, sustenance everything, and then they turn around and say I don't need you anymore, get lost, would you help such a person? And the proof from the
...
(i.e. those who don't pray due to arrogance-most atheists say we shouldn't beg/pray to God even if He exists, out of their arrogance. P.s. I'm NOT saying you're one of them)
But what about all the other religions that get their wishes granted? Or for those that dont pray or believe in god. Not to meniton how random his granting is. The usually answer I get to part fo this is that its not gods will or they were not honest or true (fill in religion")
or sincere enough or some similar excuse.
Originally Posted by Abu yahya
There is a hadeeth (narration from the Prophet Muhammad (saw)) which states that all of mankind was seen from the first of them to the last of them (some were blind, some were deaf etc) and somebody asked God "Why did you not make them all the same?" And God responded "I like to be shown Gratitude". Meaning that the reason why bad things happen to us, is to see whether or not we thank God for the good things, it's part of our test.

Secondly, we believe that on the day of judgement ..., but I think we're diagressing from the main topic of prayer, we could discuss this in another thread later if you want.
I agree. And this god of yours sounds pretty petty and selfish causing harm only so he can be patted on the back.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
Regarding the second part, that He'll help people not gladly but according to the laws of natural probability, I find it amazing that you say such a thing because there's so many incidents where people are cured despite the chances being extremely low, the laws of probability are actually against them in such an instance. How would you explain that? Are you just going to reject that it takes place, even though there's so many reports?
Well why does god help people of all religions then if he wants the "graditude" he is so selfish for.? "Miracles" happen for all religions. This seems to contradict your idea.
And what are these many instances of healing?
I know that people do get better naturally. I know that doctors may misdaignose. I know that patients misunderstand diagnoses. I also know that we dont have a perfect understanding of disease and the human body. Also I know that people tend to have their own point of view of events and they often can be distorted. Also I know that people lie, they like to feel special. I do not reject that people get better, i do reject that its anything more than natural without a shred of evidence.

Now if you had someone that regrew a limb or someone came back from the dead 7 days cold or something similarly impossible you might have some credibility.

Originally Posted by Abu yahya
PS what's your position on fate/free will?

Peace
I guess it depends on what you mean. In general i believe in free will. I see nothing as predetermined. If however you add in an all knowing being then we lose it. Everything is predetermined and we are nothing more than robots.
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