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Showkat
05-13-2007, 11:23 AM
Salaams All

Notice how the truth triumphs over falsehood and lies, follow the discussion taking place and how the Sikhs make accusations and then back off when they are asked to think and provide evidences. And near the end one Sikh agrees with certain rational and historical points.

http://forums.waheguroo.com/When-Why-How-t18824.html


The discussion with the Sikhs shows a few things.

1. How its possible for us to discuss Islam with non-Muslims in an intellectual manner

2. The weakness and fallacy of their arguments

3. How when the truth is presented they either quote lies or go silent.
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swanlake
05-14-2007, 04:49 PM
Maashallah. From what you have written, truth will always truimph. I will read it later.
Reply

cali dude
05-15-2007, 10:12 PM
To start with, you are already telling a lie that a lone muslim debating with 7000+ Sikhs...

Now let's see what truth you are talking about...

Please keep in mind that I am not impressed by Islam at all.

Sikhi is achieving perfection, such a perfection that you stay as perfect as God created you and don't even trim a single hair...
Reply

جوري
05-15-2007, 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Sikhi is achieving perfection, such a perfection that you stay as perfect as God created you and don't even trim a single hair...
wow... does that mean you have poor grooming habits and bad hygiene? :eek:
if you end up with folliculitis, Skin Abscesses, and Carbuncles, you'd let the hair fester there instead of remving it, because that is G-D created perfection? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Good luck there
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cali dude
05-15-2007, 10:30 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
wow... does that mean you have poor grooming habits and bad hygiene? :eek:
if you end up with folliculitis, Skin Abscesses, and Carbuncles, you'd let the hair fester there instead of remving it, because that is G-D created perfection? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Good luck there
Shame on you for saying that this means you have poor grooming habits. staying the way God created you doesn't mean one has poor grooming habits. True Sikhs groom themselves very well...

If you don't even understand God's Hukam, you can't even say you believe in God....

By the way, hair is not a decease...
Reply

aamirsaab
05-15-2007, 10:33 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by cali dude
Please keep in mind that I am not impressed by Islam at all.
Kind of wasting your time on this here forum then, chuck.

Sikhi is achieving perfection, such a perfection that you stay as perfect as God created you and don't even trim a single hair...
I could debate about sikhism vs Islam until hell freezes over but the fact is: you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe; you will never believe what I believe and I will never believe what you believe. So let's leave it at that.

:statisfie
Reply

جوري
05-15-2007, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Shame on you for saying that this means you have poor grooming habits....
Well having folliculities and not removing it would be considered poor hygiene and poor grooming indeed.

Originally Posted by cali dude
staying the way God created you doesn't mean one has poor grooming habits. ...
It does if he mandates certain religious ablutions of you, and you fail to perform them


Originally Posted by cali dude
True Sikhs groom themselves very well...
My friend is a sikh, I don't know how true she is by your standards, since she gets haircuts and grooms her nails

Originally Posted by cali dude
If you don't even understand God's Hukam, you can't even say you believe in God..
that is a Non sequitur logic
Originally Posted by cali dude
By the way, hair is not a decease...
what does that mean? in fact hair is dead if that is what you mean by deceased?
Reply

snakelegs
05-15-2007, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe; you will never believe what I believe and I will never believe what you believe. So let's leave it at that.
:statisfie
too sane! :D
Reply

cali dude
05-15-2007, 10:41 PM
You expect Muslims to make stupid comments about Sikhs and expect me to keep quiet?

Whatever you believe in is your issue but don't say anything stupid about Sikhi or Sikhs...
Reply

cali dude
05-15-2007, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Well having folliculities and not removing it would be considered poor hygiene and poor grooming indeed.


It does if he mandates certain religious ablutions of you, and you fail to perform them



My friend is a sikh, I don't know how true she is by your standards, since she gets haircuts and grooms her nails



that is a Non sequitur logic


what does that mean? in fact hair is dead if that is what you mean by deceased?
Do you understand this something so simple? A true Sikh keeps the hair, cleans it and keep it groom all the time. So keeping uncut hair has nothing to do with poor grooming and hygiene.

Keeping uncut hair is not a disease. Yes if there was a disease, then you do whatever to cure the disease. I have not seen any Sikh having any such diseases. It could be because because they keep their hair clean.
Reply

cali dude
05-15-2007, 10:58 PM
By the way, if you cut your hair, that means you do not accept the way God created you, thus have not fully submitted yourself to God.

Since Islam means submission to God according to some of the people here, if you cut your hair, you are not Islamic at all...
Reply

جوري
05-15-2007, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Do you understand this something so simple? .
I am afraid your above sentence doesn't make any sense!

Originally Posted by cali dude
A true Sikh keeps the hair, cleans it and keep it groom all the time. So keeping uncut hair has nothing to do with poor grooming and hygiene..

sure it can be potential ground for disease... why not? Staphylococcus aureus for instance is a strain of bacteria that lives naturally on the skin, and can in some cases over grow and cause folliculities and other DZ.

Originally Posted by cali dude
Keeping uncut hair is not a disease. Yes if there was a disease, then you do whatever to cure the disease. .
so you can cut it and not be as clean and pure as G-D intended?

Originally Posted by cali dude
I have not seen any Sikh having any such diseases. It could be because because they keep their hair clean.
I have seen many a Sikhs with all kinds of disease, they are not super human... They are bound by the human condition like the rest of humanity

as much as I'd like to amuse myself messing with your head, I really don't have that much time to dedicate to this level of silliness

peace..
Reply

snakelegs
05-15-2007, 11:10 PM
correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't sikhs actually required to keep their hair clean and take care of it?
there is even a comb among the 5 (?) k's.
Reply

cali dude
05-15-2007, 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
sure it can be potential ground for disease... why not? Staphylococcus aureus for instance is a strain of bacteria that lives naturally on the skin, and can in some cases over grow and cause folliculities and other DZ.
So you didn't understand when I said that if you have a disease you do whatever it takes to cure the disease?

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
so you can cut it and not be as clean and pure as G-D intended?
What's this supposed to mean? If you keep your hair the way God created it, you are living within God's will as someone who has truly submitted to God. If you cut your hair, you are already refusing to live the way God created you. You can cut your hair and still be filthy person and keep your hair uncut and still be clean as long as you are not lazy.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I have seen many a Sikhs with all kinds of disease, they are not super human... They are bound by the human condition like the rest of humanity
Well I have not. But if there is a disease, you do whatever to cure the disease. Is that really difficult for you to understand?

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
as much as I'd like to amuse myself messing with your head, I really don't have that much time to dedicate to this level of silliness

peace..
Then I don't understand why you start something so stupid...
Reply

cali dude
05-15-2007, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't sikhs actually required to keep their hair clean and take care of it?
there is even a comb among the 5 (?) k's.
That is true. If someone is so committed that he wouldn't cut his or her hair, why wouldn't he or she keep it clean as well?
Reply

جوري
05-15-2007, 11:18 PM
enough said

Originally Posted by cali dude
By the way, if you cut your hair, that means you do not accept the way God created you, thus have not fully submitted yourself to God.
Reply

Sunnih
05-15-2007, 11:26 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
By the way, if you cut your hair, that means you do not accept the way God created you, thus have not fully submitted yourself to God.

Since Islam means submission to God according to some of the people here, if you cut your hair, you are not Islamic at all...
This is wrong as Islam is not any submission. Rather Islam is a specific type of the particular submission to God in the way that He has ordered. This has two fields:

1) Submission in compliance with the command of God in content.

2) Submission in compliance with the command of God in manner of fulfilling the requirements of this content.

So following mere desires and whims is not submission at all. It is lust. Even the Siks have their commanded ways that they have to follow. So whether one is Islamic (as you put it) or not, is not based on your understanding of the affairs but upon Islamic proofs. You should rather say: "Islam means submission to God in accordance with His commands therefore if you cut your hear then you are not a Sikh. This we agree with.
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
05-15-2007, 11:43 PM
Hello Cali dude,

Originally Posted by cali dude
By the way, if you cut your hair, that means you do not accept the way God created you, thus have not fully submitted yourself to God.
Don't cut your nails.

Since Islam means submission to God according to some of the people here, if you cut your hair, you are not Islamic at all...
Classic case of petitio principii. You are assuming that submission to God completely is by leaving your hair grown, i.e. staying the way God created you, but where is the proof?! You are basing your whole arguement on the that premise, but what you fail to realize here, and in all your debates, is that you have not brought any decisive proof to prove your assumption, which can then atleast give your conclusion some standing. But since the premise of your arguement contains such a clear flaw, you're conclusion is just as erroneous.
Reply

cali dude
05-15-2007, 11:59 PM
Originally Posted by Al Madani
Hello Cali dude,

Don't cut your nails.
Yes you cut the part of the nail that's dead - does not grow any more. Hair is dead only when it falls off.


Originally Posted by Al Madani
Classic case of petitio principii. You are assuming that submission to God completely is by leaving your hair grown, i.e. staying the way God created you, but where is the proof?! You are basing your whole arguement on the that premise, but what you fail to realize here, and in all your debates, is that you have not brought any decisive proof to prove your assumption, which can then atleast give your conclusion some standing. But since the premise of your arguement contains such a clear flaw, you're conclusion is just as erroneous.
What kind of proof do you need? What kind of proof do you provide of your beliefs other than that prophet said so?
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
05-16-2007, 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Yes you cut the part of the nail that's dead - does not grow any more. Hair is dead only when it falls off.
Actually the nail, like your hair is dead and is being removed from your body as a waste. If you really want to 'submit to God' then grow your nails too, or else I see double standards and a clear flaw in your beliefs.

What kind of proof do you need? What kind of proof do you provide of your beliefs other than that prophet said so?
Those that revert to Islam don't do so on that basis. The truth of Islam is self evident.
Reply

cali dude
05-16-2007, 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by Al Madani
Actually the nail, like your hair is dead and is being removed from your body as a waste. If you really want to 'submit to God' then grow your nails too, or else I see double standards and a clear flaw in your beliefs.
How did you come to conclusion that hair is dead? The portion of nail that's attached to the skin is alive and rest of the nail is dead.

If you think hair is just waste, then why not shave your head, instead of only trimming the hair?
Reply

جوري
05-16-2007, 12:16 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
How did you come to conclusion that hair is dead?
because it doesn't scream ouch, ouch this hurts.. pls don't cut me.. if it were "alive" you'd feel pain, it is really that simple!-- :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes
Reply

cali dude
05-16-2007, 12:19 AM
What's even simpler is that since it grows, it's alive. But your answer isn't scientific definition of something alive. Plants don't cry either. It doesn't mean that they are not alive. So what Muslims believe that God created hair for nothing?
Reply

Sunnih
05-16-2007, 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
What's even simpler is that since it grows, it's alive. But your answer isn't scientific definition of something alive. Plants don't cry either. It doesn't mean that they are not alive. So what Muslims believe that God created hair for nothing?
Do Sikhs believe that God created the nails for nothing?
Reply

جوري
05-16-2007, 12:23 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
What's even simpler is that since it grows, it's alive. But your answer isn't scientific definition of something alive. Plants don't cry either. It doesn't mean that they are not alive. So what Muslims believe that God created hair for nothing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair

there you go...
Reply

Sunnih
05-16-2007, 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
How did you come to conclusion that hair is dead? The portion of nail that's attached to the skin is alive and rest of the nail is dead.

If you think hair is just waste, then why not shave your head, instead of only trimming the hair?
Same way the portion of hair that is attached to the skin can be said that it is alive and the rest id dead.

If you want to differentiate between hair and nails then you must show proof that they are different in terms of "life".
Reply

NobleMuslimUK
05-17-2007, 12:44 AM
Is this gonna be known as the lone sikh takes on 70,000 muslims on their forum... lol.

Yeah seriously cali dude we're not dissing your religion, but provide proof from your texts. To my understanding sikhism is like 300 years old. Sikh is the punjabi word which means learn. Guru Nanak was heavily influenced by Islam and sikhism takes many of its practises from Islam, such as growing a beard and wearing turbans etc... I also understand some sikhs are strict vegetarians and some arent just like the hindus. Are they vegetarian simply because of the reincarnation concept, for instance eating a cow or any animal means you might be eating one of your dead relatives. Also your the one dissing yourself by basing your claim of perfection just on the fact that you let hair grow. By your terminology, you must allow underarm and pubic hair too, a little advice that can lead to bad odours and in general bad hygiene.

Peace
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-17-2007, 01:42 AM






Salaam/peace


Originally Posted by Showkat
Salaams All

Notice how the truth triumphs over falsehood and lies, follow the discussion taking place and how the Sikhs make accusations and then back off when they are asked to think and provide evidences. And near the end one Sikh agrees with certain rational and historical points.

http://forums.waheguroo.com/When-Why-How-t18824.html


The discussion with the Sikhs shows a few things.

1. How its possible for us to discuss Islam with non-Muslims in an intellectual manner

2. The weakness and fallacy of their arguments

3. How when the truth is presented they either quote lies or go silent.
thanks for sharing ....Insha Allah i will read later.


Reply

eyeofthestorm
05-17-2007, 02:39 AM
k, ppl wts the obsession wid de hair:D
Reply

Abdul-Raouf
05-17-2007, 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
Please keep in mind that I am not impressed by Islam at all.
No one is holding u... u can get out of this forum...

Let the dicussions be useful.... no blaming each other...
Reply

Malaikah
05-17-2007, 03:38 AM
Originally Posted by cali dude
What's even simpler is that since it grows, it's alive. But your answer isn't scientific definition of something alive. Plants don't cry either. It doesn't mean that they are not alive. So what Muslims believe that God created hair for nothing?
Umm... Hair is not alive. It can't be since it is not made out of cells.

To be living it has to be made of cells. Tree are alive because they are made out of cells. The same goes for animals, fungi, bacteria, slime molds, algae etc. But not hair. Hair is made out of protein.

If you think it is alive because it grows longer, well nails grow longer too. They are not alive.

By the way, do you differentiate between the hair on the head and body/facial hair? If yes, why?
Reply

Muslim Woman
05-17-2007, 09:08 AM



Salaam/peace


Originally Posted by cali dude
By the way, if you cut your hair, that means you do not accept the way God created you, thus have not fully submitted yourself to God....
LOL . God sent us without any dress , then why Sikh people even kids wear dress ? Does it mean U don't like ur birthday dress & wearing clothes means u are not submitted to God ????



BTW , do Sikh women cut their hair ?

Reply

Muslim Woman
05-17-2007, 09:12 AM
:sl:

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
because it doesn't scream ouch, ouch this hurts.. pls don't cut me.. if it were "alive" you'd feel pain, it is really that simple!-- :rollseyes :rollseyes :rollseyes
haha , funny :giggling:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
05-17-2007, 09:35 AM
i didnt see any propa outcome on that sikh forum :S.
Reply

cali dude
05-17-2007, 05:46 PM
Well I guess there is something Muslims will never understand. It's God's will.
But think about it why do you think prophets kept long hair? Those who think keeping long is being filthy, think again.

Statements like this:

LOL . God sent us without any dress , then why Sikh people even kids wear dress ? Does it mean U don't like ur birthday dress & wearing clothes means u are not submitted to God ????
are silly statements...

and Muslims Woman laughing for no reason is only for abnormal people. Think about it. Her answer had no logic....
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-17-2007, 06:03 PM
Where is your proof for this? Maybe you need to "think again?"
Muslim men are allowed only to keep hair shoulder length. I highly doubt they had hair as long as Sikhs keep. And as Sikhs, you can't cut your hair at all right? That isnt the same for us.

And making statements without proof is ignorant. It really doesnt help to tell anyone how to behave if you cant do it yourself.

And generally speaking, no one should be laughing at each others beliefs, its really low.

Peace
Reply

Mawaddah
05-17-2007, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
But think about it why do you think prophets kept long hair? Those who think keeping long is being filthy, think again.

..

Prophet Isa's hair only came to Just above his Shoulders.

Prophet Muhammads hair came to to earlobes. And He used to cut his hair, It was not considered something sacred.

Where's your proof that all prophets kept long hair?
Reply

cali dude
05-17-2007, 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by Jazzy
Muslim men are allowed only to keep hair shoulder length. I highly doubt they had hair as long as Sikhs keep. Where is your prrof for this? Maybe you need to "think again?"


And making statements without proof is ignorant. It really doesnt help to tell anyone how to behave if you cant do it yourself.
So what are you saying, prophets (Jesus Christ or Mohammad) didn't have beard or long head hair?

So what's purpose, for Muslim, to keep hair at all?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-17-2007, 06:14 PM
You mentioned hair not beard. Did i say they didnt have a beard or no long hair? The long hair being talked about isn't like what you guys keep. Like sis Mawaddah said, its not "sacred."
Reply

Islamic_warrior
05-17-2007, 06:22 PM
Put a Sikh and a Muslim side by side I cannot tell a difference. The only difference they have is the hair. Muslims wear turban and have beard. Whats the point of this debate agian how long people should keep there hair? :S Is that even something to debate on. There are many bigger issues then that like oneness of Allah S.W.T
Reply

Islamic_warrior
05-17-2007, 06:26 PM
Put a Sikh and a Muslim side by side I cannot tell a difference. Muslims wear turban and have a beard so do Sikhs. Most of the Sikhs I have met have believes similar to a sect in islam called sufism.
Whats the point of this debate agian? How long people should keep their hair? :S Is that even something to debate on. There are much bigger issues then hair like oneness of Allah S.W.T the last prophet.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-17-2007, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by cali dude
So what are you saying, prophets (Jesus Christ or Mohammad) didn't have beard or long head hair?

So what's purpose, for Muslim, to keep hair at all?
Ok, hair is one issue which many of us on this forum came to know why Sikhs don't trim. You (Sikhs) believe that it's not unhygienic to keep long hair untrimmed whereas everyone else All others (including Muslims) believe it otherwise.

Now lets go to the next item.

2. Why do Sikhs have to wear so thick turbans even in this modern age?
Reply

Islamic_warrior
05-17-2007, 06:42 PM
Why do Sikhs wear so thick turbans?
lol Is that a joke?
Reply

Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
05-17-2007, 06:46 PM
The turban is no issue brother Iqbal.
Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-17-2007, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by Islamic_warrior
Put a Sikh and a Muslim side by side I cannot tell a difference. Muslims wear turban and have a beard so do Sikhs. Most of the Sikhs I have met have believes similar to a sect in islam called sufism.
Whats the point of this debate agian? How long people should keep their hair? :S Is that even something to debate on. There are much bigger issues then hair like oneness of Allah S.W.T the last prophet.
Sufism in different parts of the Muslim world is different. Sufis blended Islam with the local philosophies when they spread Islam. Before the arrival of Sufis, the majority of people in Punjab didn't believe much in spiritualism. They were practical and hard working people, therefore, they were not impressed in any invisible spiritual powers with which Hindus wanted to influence them or scare them to make their rule easy. They believed only in things which could be verified with the five senses. They regarded their five senses as their five leaders (Punj Peer). Sikhs and Muslims of Punjab who still know about the old culture of Punjab know about the Punj Peer. It's this philosophy which the Sufis blended with Islam and made a lot of followers. The Sikh Gurus also blended this philosophy with a little bit of Islam and a little bit of Hindu relgion to construct their new religion. The spiritual leader of Sikhs Baba Guru Nanak had visited Mecca and performed Haj also. This is how spiritualism was able to make its way into the land of the wise people. Before Sufis and Gurus it was not easy to beat the common sense of Punjabis with spiritual stories.
Reply

------
05-17-2007, 07:21 PM
:salamext:

Sufi, Shia's, Sunnis..... :raging:

We're Muslims! Please keep it at that, Inshaa Allaah :)
Reply

Ghira
05-17-2007, 07:28 PM
I think we should talk about belief not what people wear. Cali sikh you believe you are following God's command by growing long hair and never trimming/cutting it. That is a sign of piety and submission to God?? Then in that case don't take a shower or bath because you are sheding 'dead' skin, skin that had cells that were alive. I see then you put a extreme version of 'changing the creation of God.' Does that mean that you cannot have organ transplants??
Reply

iqbal_soofi
05-17-2007, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by Muj4h1d4
:salamext:

Sufi, Shia's, Sunnis..... :raging:

We're Muslims! Please keep it at that, Inshaa Allaah :)
You missed 'Sikh' in that line.
Sufis had many Sikh followers too. They respect and believe in some Sufis as much as they respect or believe in their Gurus.
Baba Guru Nanak had many Muslims and Hindus as his believers. The Sikh religion was constructed by other Gurus (Guru Gobind and others) later on the teachings of Baba Guru Nanak. People from one of the biggest Punjabi communities (Jatt) adopted the Sikh religion. However, almost an equal number of the members of this community (Jatt) had already adopted Islam after Sufis. The way of thinking and cultural behavior of Jatts in both religions is still has common qualities. That's why they look alike.
Reply

------
05-17-2007, 09:14 PM
:salamext:

I meant lets not bring in sectarian stuff, we're Muslims, and lets keep it at that title Inshaa Allaah :)
Reply

Muezzin
05-17-2007, 09:16 PM
Firstly, this kind of thing really belongs in Comparative Religion.

Secondly, this particular thread does not seem to have proved particularly constructive, and has instead just caused arguments. It also seems to have gone as far as it can go.

Therefore, I'm closing this thread.
Reply

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