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Talha777
06-05-2007, 01:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
Being in the form, or having the nature or having the likeness of God does not at all prove that one is God. In fact, the Bible itself says:

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:27)

But of course, just because man has the likeness or image of God does not mean that man is God. Now of course the New Testament authors, or at least Paul, did not consider Jesus to be a human being, but compares Jesus being in the form or likeness of God to Jesus being in the form or likeness of man in the very next verse (Philippians 2:7)

format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
28. And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!''
29. Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.''
First of all, Jesus is clearly congradulating Thomas on believing in his resurrection, not his supposed "divinity". The context of this passage will clearly show that Thomas doubted whether the man in front of him was really Jesus or not (hence the phrase "doubting Thomas"), so Jesus invited him to observe the wounds on his body caused by the crucifixion.

Second of all, while Thomas is directing his comments to Jesus "My Lord and my God", it is still not clear, and perhaps cannot be clear, whether he is referring to Jesus as his "Lord and God". It seems to be an exclaimation on Thomas's part, he has just witnessed a resurrection, and is expressing his surprise, according to the author of the gospel of John.

Finally, for the sake of argument, suppose Thomas is referring to Jesus as his Lord and God in this verse, yet because this is a quote of a character in the gospel of John, it can hardly be regarded as proof. If it could be used as proof, than I could use the following quote to prove my point:

But the Pharisees said, "It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons." (Matthew 9:34)

So if you can use a quote from Thomas to prove that Jesus is God, than I can use a quote from a Pharisee that would prove that Jesus was (God forbid) the "prince of demons".

format_quote Originally Posted by GraceSeeker
Revelation 1:8 has Jesus speaking and identifying himself to John as "the Lord God" and "the Almighty".
Completely false. Look at Revelation 1:8 in context:

and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth to him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen. "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:5-8)

IS JESUS IMMUTABLE?
At the outset, the Bible claims that Jesus is immutable:
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. (Hebrews 13:8)

However, we know this is false, even the Christians here on this very thread have admitted that Jesus changed his nature. Here's what the Bible says:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. (Hebrews 2:9)

So he [Jesus] became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs (Hebrews 1:4)

Paul writes that Jesus gave up his divinity, or at least his divine qualities, and became the likeness of a human being (Philippians 2:7). This also proves that Jesus, at least while he was on Earth, was not 100% divine and 100% human simultaneously, as Christians most often believe. In fact, I have never come across a single verse of the Bible which shows that Jesus is or was 100% divine and 100% human simultaneously.

Immediately we can see that Jesus was not immutable, at one point he was inferior to Angels, than after his resurrection, when his glory was restored according to the Bible, he was again superior to the Angels. However, even after he was resurrected, the Bible shows that Jesus was not fully divine, and did not possess the divine quality of Self-Sufficiency, but instead was still subject to human quality of hunger:

And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he [Jesus] asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence. (Luke 24:41-43)

Amazing, the Bible says after his resurrection, when Jesus was restored to his glory supposedly, he is still subject to the human condition. He still feels hunger? What kind of "god" is this?

So we have the Christians' own admission that Jesus is not immutable, that he voluntarily suspended some (or all) of his divine qualities:

format_quote Originally Posted by GraceSeeker
Now, this is exactly what Christians say is true with regard to Jesus. In his human life on earth, Jesus voluntarily shared in our natural limitations. He experienced life like any other human being. So, though divine, the human Jesus was in fact relating to God the Father just like any other human would. After he rose from the dead, jesus returned to the glory he had with the Father before he came to earth (Philippians 2:9-11, John 17:5). In that restored glory, Jesus was able to send the Holy Spirit and empower his disciples to do even greater works than he did while he was here in the flesh (John 14:12, 14:26-28).
But as I have already demonstrated, even have he supposedly rose from the dead, Jesus was still subject to human frailties (Luke 24:41-43).

However, in order to justify their preposterous beliefs, the Christians have tried to say Islam teaches the same thing:

format_quote Originally Posted by GraceSeeker
Well, YES, indeed GOD is always all of those things. But God also has the power to limit himself in those areas as well. Example: a person is about to commit haraam. Allah is omniscient and knows this. Allah wills for a person to not commit haraam. Allah is omnipotent and can make a person do what ever Allah wills for that person. The goes ahead and actually commits haraam. Why is that? Is it because:
a) Allah actually willed for the person to commit haraam.
b) Allah did not will for the person to commit haraam but was unable to stop it.
c) Allah did not will for the person to commit haraam, was able to stop it, and yet choose not to exercise his power to stop it.
The anwser, of course, is C. Allah limited his omnipotence in order to allow the person to exercise their free will -- which in our example they exercised unwisely. So, while God is always all powerful, God can also limit his exercise of that power.
At the outset, I will tell you very plainly, Allah is Eternal, He is God and possesses all the qualities and attributes of divinity. He never suspends or limits Himself or His qualities, they are constantly, eternally in operation. This is the concept of One God, believing in it is what makes you a Muwahid(monotheist).

Yes, we believe absolutely that Allah is Al-Aleem (All-Knowing), as well as Al-Qadeer (All-Powerful), a.k.a. Omnicient and Omnipotent. Another quality of Allah is Free Will, so while He is always Omnicient and knows everything, and He is always Omnipotent, that means He can do anything. That is the definition of omnipotence, the capability to do anything, the power over all things. The exercise of that power is subject to Allah's free will. Yes because it is subject to His free will does not in the least mean He has suspended His omnipotence, or has put it aside. This is our Lord and God, we believe in Him and all His qualities and attributes which He has revealed to us, He possess them eternally and is Immutable, and never puts them aside or suspends them:

Allah. There is no god but He, the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (Al-Baqarah 2:255)
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Woodrow
06-05-2007, 02:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I was born and raised Catholic too. I used to pray the Rossary, but when I started reading the Bible, I thought it strange to continue. I am biased to the Bible, but maybe not more than you are to the Qur'an. You say the Bible has been corrupted. I used to not think so, but did you know the same can be said and noted about the Qur'an?
One of the attractions I find about the Qur'an is I have yet to find a single Qur'an of any age that differs from the Qur'an still in use. True the oldest Qur'an I have been able to see pictures of is only about 1,000 years old. But it is identical with what I read today. I have never seen any version of the Qur'an except for this one.

With yourself having been Catholic you should be very much aware as to how easy it is to associate another with God(swt) and still believe you are only prayint to God(swt) alone. Perhaps one day you will see that the misconceptions about Isa(as) are nearly identical with the adoration of Mary.

Christians tend to fall so far away from God(swt0 that every since the time of Paul they have feared talking to God(swt) and have felt a need to place an intermediary between them and God(swt). They first elevated Isa(as) to that role, but some of them did such a good job at it they built Isa9as) up to be so godlike that they had to use Mary as an intermediary and when she became unapproachable there had to be the promotion of eathly intermediaries.

Christians have lost the direct straight path to God(as) and have had to create a very complex round about road to reach Him. Sadly the round about paths have become viewed as God(swt) and very few Christians are left that feel they can speak directly to God(swt) and ask Him alone for forgiveness.
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vpb
06-05-2007, 02:33 PM
I am currently reading the history of quranic text, the chapter on the corruption of bible, and it is showing on the example of the greek minuscule script, (Bodmer Papyrus XIV-XV), where John 1:18 could be read either as 'an only One, God' or 'God, the only begotten' , due to the lack of seperators between adjacent words as well as sentences. so they read the second option, which brings us the trinity concept.

also shows some other divergences like:

John 1:18 'an only One, God has a variant , 'the only begotten son'.
John 1:34 'The son of God' has a variant of 'the chosen One of God'
John 8:16 The phrase 'the Father who sent me' has a variant of 'he who sent me'
John 9:35 Jesus appellation 'the son of God' has a variant of a greater documentary evidence 'the son of man'
Mark 16:9-20 The concluding twelve verses of Mark are replaces by a much shorter ending in several manuscripts, negating any reference to Jesus reappearance to his disciples and his subsequent ascension.
Luke 3:22 'You are my beloved son in whom I am well pleased' has a variant 'You are my son, this day I have begotten you.
Luke 24:6 and 24:12 'He is not here but is risen' and all of verse 12 (where Peter discovers Jesus burial clothes but no body) are excluded from a few older manuscripts.

i just wrote some from the book.

it's worthy of reading it.

http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b7626.html
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AB517
06-05-2007, 02:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
One of the attractions I find about the Qur'an is I have yet to find a single Qur'an of any age that differs from the Qur'an still in use. True the oldest Qur'an I have been able to see pictures of is only about 1,000 years old. But it is identical with what I read today. I have never seen any version of the Qur'an except for this one.

With yourself having been Catholic you should be very much aware as to how easy it is to associate another with God(swt) and still believe you are only prayint to God(swt) alone. Perhaps one day you will see that the misconceptions about Isa(as) are nearly identical with the adoration of Mary.

Christians tend to fall so far away from God(swt0 that every since the time of Paul they have feared talking to God(swt) and have felt a need to place an intermediary between them and God(swt). They first elevated Isa(as) to that role, but some of them did such a good job at it they built Isa9as) up to be so godlike that they had to use Mary as an intermediary and when she became unapproachable there had to be the promotion of eathly intermediaries.

Christians have lost the direct straight path to God(as) and have had to create a very complex round about road to reach Him. Sadly the round about paths have become viewed as God(swt) and very few Christians are left that feel they can speak directly to God(swt) and ask Him alone for forgiveness.
Here is the problem, and why the two will have trouble getting together. In fact all religions will have trouble for this reason.

We must separate religion from God. Period ... that’s it.

Religious doctrine is of men and has the flaws associated with men. Until Christians and Islamic people (and all else) realize this ... they will not unite

Christians believe the Bible is infallible. Islam believes the Koran is infallible.
Gods needs us to rise above such egocentric beliefs.

If you don’t understand that Mohammed’s' Angle Michael and the idea of a Trinity are religious doctrines you miss the truth of God.

If you don’t understand the notions of last Profit or only saved by Jesus are religious doctrines that is ok, but when someone else asked you to lift your head, look, feel, and listen ... do not condemn or pretend you know because “look .. it says here”. Those of us who experienced him know too.

My children, he is here now and he is there then, and he is in the future. God looks in dismay at how we misunderstand him. Follow these books to see how to treat others, but do not suppose that you know the God in heaven or how he will or will not speak.

This creation was made in love ... he loves us all … use it that way.

AB
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vpb
06-05-2007, 02:42 PM
Here is the problem, and why the two will have trouble getting together. In fact all religions will have trouble for this reason.

We must separate religion from God. Period ... that’s it.

Religious doctrine is of men and has the flaws associated with men. Until Christians and Islamic people (and all else) realize this ... they will not unite

Christians believe the Bible is infallible. Islam believes the Koran is infallible.
Gods needs us to rise above such egocentric beliefs.

If you don’t understand that Mohammed’s' Angle Michael and the idea of a Trinity are religious doctrines you miss the truth of God.

If you don’t understand the notions of last Profit or only saved by Jesus are religious doctrines that is ok, but when someone else asked you to lift your head, look, feel, and listen ... do not condemn or pretend you know because “look .. it says here”. Those of us who experienced him know too.

My children, he is here now and he is there then, and he is in the future. God looks in dismay at how we misunderstand him. Follow these books to see how to treat others, but do not suppose that you know the God in heaven or how he will or will not speak.

This creation was made in love ... he loves us all … use it that way.

AB
yep, anything else to add?? :p
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Phil12123
06-06-2007, 12:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Christians tend to fall so far away from God(swt) that ever since the time of Paul they have feared talking to God(swt) and have felt a need to place an intermediary between them and God(swt). They first elevated Isa(as) to that role, but some of them did such a good job at it they built Isa(as) up to be so godlike that they had to use Mary as an intermediary and when she became unapproachable there had to be the promotion of eathly intermediaries.

Christians have lost the direct straight path to God(as) and have had to create a very complex round about road to reach Him. Sadly the round about paths have become viewed as God(swt) and very few Christians are left that feel they can speak directly to God(swt) and ask Him alone for forgiveness.
Woodrow, I'm not sure who or what "Christians" you are referring to, unless you're talking about Catholics from your own experience as one. No Christians that I know have any problem talking directly to God, as Jesus taught His disciples to do, "Our Father who is in Heaven, holy is your Name, your kingdom come..etc." But it was Jesus who also taught that no one comes to the Father except through HIM. So He taught that we can ask the Father anything "in my Name" (John 14:13-14; 15:16; 16:23-24). But we can also ask Jesus Himself because HE is God. That's what Paul did, though Jesus did not grant his request but instead, Jesus said, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength[Greek, dunamis] is made perfect in weakness.'' Paul's response? "Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power[Greek, dunamis] of Christ may rest upon me" (2 Cor. 12:7-9).

I don't believe there is any scriptural support for praying to anyone but God, which, of course, includes the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but no one else.

1 Tim. 2: 5. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
6. who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

To put anyone else in between God and men as a mediator, either to get to God or to get to Christ, is to violate this verse.

Christians ask God alone for forgiveness based on the "ransom for all" that Jesus gave Himself as.

Peace
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Redeemed
06-06-2007, 01:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
no it's not. how did u come to that conclusion?
I didn't mean to say the Bible is corrupted if that is what you understood. I meant that I use to think the Qur'an was not corrupted, but as I learn more history, I have changed my mind. I have reason to believe it has been very much so; for instance, since Muhammad couldn't read or write, Scribes wrote for him. They wrote on anything that was available leaves, stones, leather and bones and many committed to memory his words that were killed and scattered. Qoraishi dialect was supposed to be the standard Arabic, but there is confusion between that and modern Arabic. Moreover, copies of Zaid’s collection some twenty-four were burned. The final choice for a canon seems to have had little to do with authenticity. During the time of Uthman, “No two Qur’ans were alike, yet in one edit they were all destroyed - except one” There are also contradictions in the Qur’an. Muhammad even changed the words of Allah to please certain people and there are severe misrepresentations of the Christian believe. The true Christian belief is a spirit that the Qur'an fails to convey and grossly misrepresents. If it were God (ALLAH) speaking, He would have known what the true spirit of Christianity is and not misrepresent it. Nowhere in the Bible is Mary considered part of a trinity. It is not even implied. Muhammad must have applied his understand to what he thought Allah was saying, and he didn’t correct this mistake like he did other times. Sometimes he would change what Allah said by saying that Satan deceived him into thinking it was Allah. When I read this and think about how he received visions by inspiration and revelations by dreams involving seizures and the painful thongs of bells in where he shivered and foamed at the mouth and roared like a camel, I wonder who is the true apostle between him and Paul. Yes, he would cancel some lines of what Allah said, because it was condoning or allowing the worship of idols. Some of his disciples left him because they thought how could he be so audacious to alter Allah’s words. Muhammad saw that it shocked his disciples so he said Gabriel came to him and said to “Cancel what Satan interjects.” I don’t know about you, but I am sure that Muhammad was supernaturally empowered. The question is by whom? Even He thought his revelations were demonically inspired and his women assured the tormented prophet that they are from Allah. That satisfied him even though he believed the witness of a woman is half that of a man because of their lack of intelligence or deficiency of their mind. My point is how could I be accountable to Allah for not receiving Muhammad’s witness when he doubted his own revelations and visions? No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation or visions. You say the Bible is not reliable. I don’t believe that. It is written "He that has the Son has life; He that has not the Son has not life but the wrath of God abides on them.":phew
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MustafaMc
06-06-2007, 01:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
Volume 4, Book 55, Number 654: Narrated 'Umar:
I heard the Prophet saying, "Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a Slave. So, call me the Slave of Allah and His Apostle."




Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s:
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:
We said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon when the sky is clear?" We said, "No." He said, "So you will have no difficulty in seeing your Lord on that Day as you have no difficulty in seeing the sun and the moon (in a clear sky)." The Prophet then said, "Somebody will then announce, 'Let every nation follow what they used to worship.'

...
'Surely! Allah wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a smallest ant) but if there is any good (done) He doubles it.' (4.40) The Prophet added, "Then the prophets and Angels and the believers will intercede, and (last of all) the Almighty (Allah) will say, 'Now remains My Intercession. He will then hold a handful of the Fire from which He will take out some people whose bodies have been burnt, and they will be thrown into a river at the entrance of Paradise, called the water of life.
They will grow on its banks, as a seed carried by the torrent grows. You have noticed how it grows beside a rock or beside a tree, and how the side facing the sun is usually green while the side facing the shade is white. Those people will come out (of the River of Life) like pearls, and they will have (golden) necklaces, and then they will enter Paradise whereupon the people of Paradise will say, 'These are the people emancipated by the Beneficent. He has admitted them into Paradise without them having done any good deeds and without sending forth any good (for themselves).' Then it will be said to them, 'For you is what you have seen and its equivalent as well.'"
Although this post went off topic, the hadith is a beautiful demonstration of the Mercy of Allah for the believers. Al-hamdulillah!
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MustafaMc
06-06-2007, 01:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I don’t know why you trust the Qur’an. It has been tampered with.:omg:
Bring forth your proof how the Quran that I have today is not letter-for-letter exactly what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) recited over 1400 years ago.
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Redeemed
06-06-2007, 01:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Bring forth your proof how the Quran that I have today is not letter-for-letter exactly what Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) recited over 1400 years ago.
Are you sure you want to get me started on this? You could start reading what i wrote above.
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جوري
06-06-2007, 01:37 AM
yes pls.. wow us with your know how.. would like to read your work for a change instead of that of your missionaries. Unless you wish to be in for another bout of having a foot in your mouth as usual?
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Phil12123
06-06-2007, 01:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
The trinity is another transgression against the absolute and perfect Oneness of Allah. Like all false and satanic doctrines, it makes no sense and is completely illogical. So compare what Allah teaches and makes clear with that which Satan tries to deceive man, and you will see that Truth prevails, but falsehood always suffers defeat and shatters to pieces. May Allah Taala grant victory to the Believers, and may He destroy Christianity. Ameen.
Sounds like "beef" to me.

Peace
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MustafaMc
06-06-2007, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
1 John 5:20 -- "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He [which refers to Jesus as the immediate antecedent for the pronoun] is the true God and eternal life."
No, I disagree that the verse means what you say.

American Standard Version And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. My understanding of "we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God" is that when it says in his Son and then follows with this is the true God means that it is referring to other than the Son as being the true God. The beginning of the verse says that the Son of God gave an understanding of another (God) that is true.
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AB517
06-06-2007, 02:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
yep, anything else to add?? :p
Nope, If ya cant get passed this we get stuk in a fight between versus from this place or that ... which prooves nothing but that we know versous and that you can spell better then me. ... :) just look at the replies.

AB
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MustafaMc
06-06-2007, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
So, if I were non-Christian and non-Muslim and viewed both religions from a neutral position, I might think the Trinity is too hard for me to understand, but I sure enough would KNOW that I wasn't going to be sure of Heaven the Muslim way, working myself and hoping for mercy without any real promise of it, and with no one paying for my sins but ME if that mercy did not come.
We accept the Quran as the literal Word of God and it promises Paradise to the believers over and over again. We stand on the Promises of God and do not rely upon our "good works" to earn us salvation. Yes, we hope in the Mercy of Allah with no guarantee that we are in fact saved as only Allah can judge our faith and deeds as being sincere or hypocritical.

Knowing here and NOW my sins (past, present and future) are all forgiven, paid for in full, gives me peace, joy and happiness that you will never know about if you stay on your "right way."

Peace
We believe that what Christians are so sure about is a false hope - a mirage. Yes, one Day we will all know whether we built our house upon the solid rock or the shifting sand.
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MustafaMc
06-06-2007, 04:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I have reason to believe it has been very much so; for instance, since Muhammad couldn't read or write, Scribes wrote for him. They wrote on anything that was available leaves, stones, leather and bones and many committed to memory his words that were killed and scattered.
How does this relate to your claim of alteration & corruption?

Qoraishi dialect was supposed to be the standard Arabic, but there is confusion between that and modern Arabic.
Yes, the original Arabic of the Quran is different from that spoken in conversation today. Similar to the difference between Shakespear and Southern USA slang. What is the point?
Moreover, copies of Zaid’s collection some twenty-four were burned. The final choice for a canon seems to have had little to do with authenticity. During the time of Uthman, “No two Qur’ans were alike, yet in one edit they were all destroyed - except one”
What evidence do you have for the claim that the copies of the Quran prior to Uthman varied in meaning? This "***********" website has the history of Quranic compilation.

http://www.***********/history/quran_compiled.htm Website is not coming up - do a Yahoo search for "Quran history" and select #7. Actually ... http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geu8wgmW...n_compiled.htm

There are also contradictions in the Qur’an. Muhammad even changed the words of Allah to please certain people and there are severe misrepresentations of the Christian believe.
Prove it. Do you have the "original" to show this claim?

The true Christian belief is a spirit that the Qur'an fails to convey and grossly misrepresents. If it were God (ALLAH) speaking, He would have known what the true spirit of Christianity is and not misrepresent it. Nowhere in the Bible is Mary considered part of a trinity. It is not even implied. Muhammad must have applied his understand to what he thought Allah was saying, and he didn’t correct this mistake like he did other times.
We have been arguing this point that to pray to someone or to ask blessings from anyone other than the One God is elevating that person to "God-hood".

Sometimes he would change what Allah said by saying that Satan deceived him into thinking it was Allah. When I read this and think about how he received visions by inspiration and revelations by dreams involving seizures and the painful thongs of bells in where he shivered and foamed at the mouth and roared like a camel, I wonder who is the true apostle between him and Paul. Yes, he would cancel some lines of what Allah said, because it was condoning or allowing the worship of idols. Some of his disciples left him because they thought how could he be so audacious to alter Allah’s words.
Give me some examples. I would like to read them. Yes, either Paul or Muhammad (pbuh) was a false prophet that preached falsehood to mislead people from the Straight path. We just differ on who we believe was a true prophet.

Muhammad saw that it shocked his disciples so he said Gabriel came to him and said to “Cancel what Satan interjects.” I don’t know about you, but I am sure that Muhammad was supernaturally empowered. The question is by whom? Even He thought his revelations were demonically inspired and his women assured the tormented prophet that they are from Allah. That satisfied him even though he believed the witness of a woman is half that of a man because of their lack of intelligence or deficiency of their mind.
Upon Muhammad's first contact with the Angel Jibrail, he did return to his only wife, Khadija, for comfort. Imagine for one moment your reaction to being squeezed by an Angel.
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جوري
06-06-2007, 04:42 AM
I am not going to reply back to this guy since I believe him to be a total nut case... but I speak Arabic fluently, and there is positively no confusion about the Arabic of the Quran and the Arabic that regular people speak. I speak a different Arabic from that of the Quran which is Arabic in its most eloquent and proper.. in fact any grammar we take in school, called Qawa3id, basis its Arabic on that of the Quran, so there is no confusion, Any Arabic speaking person will tell you that... He is just looking for excuses to be a moshrik... easy I suppose when your sins are forgiven to say and do as you fancy..
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vpb
06-06-2007, 04:42 AM
for instance, since Muhammad couldn't read or write, Scribes wrote for him. They wrote on anything that was available leaves, stones, leather and bones and many committed to memory his words that were killed and scattered.
The danger of losing the Qur'an because some , again i'm saying some sahabas died in battle who memorized Qur'an, was not even close for the Qur'an to be lost. This is a big lie of orientalists, why they try to prove that bc some people died, the whole Qur'an was lost or changed or whatever. You just told me that you have no knowledge of how the compilation went, whatsoever.

Qoraishi dialect was supposed to be the standard Arabic, but there is confusion between that and modern Arabic.
Still the Qur'an today is in Qoraishi dialect??? so?? what's that got to do with modern arabic?? the proper grammas of arabic today is learned from the Qur'an. So I don't know what are you trying to say.

Moreover, copies of Zaid’s collection some twenty-four were burned. The final choice for a canon seems to have had little to do with authenticity. During the time of Uthman, “No two Qur’ans were alike, yet in one edit they were all destroyed - except one”
Are you ignorant or what? have u read any history of Qur'an?? or you just got this information and interpret it however you want??
the other Qur'ans were burned, because since at that time the Qur'anic text was without the signs which we have today, and since there were in different dialects (7) ,people started reading it differently, and were making mistakes on reading, bc of the lack of the signs, actually the problem was with non-knowledgable people, so in order to eleminate the problem wich might pose danger in the future, Uthman made the standard version which was in Qoraishi dialect, the most famous one, and ordered all other to be burned, to make sure that it is read in only one, so people would not read it differently. and have a standard one, the qoraishi dialect.
please read before you come and just post anything here.

There are also contradictions in the Qur’an. Muhammad even changed the words of Allah to please certain people and there are severe misrepresentations of the Christian believe.
FALSE
The true Christian belief is a spirit that the Qur'an fails to convey and grossly misrepresents. If it were God (ALLAH) speaking, He would have known what the true spirit of Christianity is and not misrepresent it. Nowhere in the Bible is Mary considered part of a trinity.
What are you talking about, please show me the verse , where is Mary considered as part of trinity? and btw, you know nothing even about your religion, if people from paul's time would meet you, even they were deviated, they would called you 'non-christians', you have far deviated even from the sayings of Paul. and you want to come and accuse Qur;an? loll

It is not even implied. Muhammad must have applied his understand to what he thought Allah was saying, and he didn’t correct this mistake like he did other times. Sometimes he would change what Allah said by saying that Satan deceived him into thinking it was Allah. When I read this and think about how he received visions by inspiration and revelations by dreams involving seizures and the painful thongs of bells in where he shivered and foamed at the mouth and roared like a camel, I wonder who is the true apostle between him and Paul.
Muhammed didn't have any doubts about his revelation, I don't know why are stucked on this. you want to consider Paul with Muhammed??? Paul was a chrisitan-killer , and sudenlly he became an Apostle, you don't even know Paul's last name, you don't even have the full biography of Jesus, and you want to come and tell me about Muhammed? you have read nothing about Muhammed, or your ignorance is preventing you from, if you would read about Muhammed you would see his character, even before the revelation, he never accepted the idols, and he was known as the Al-Amin ( The trustworthy). so please don't make any of these ridicilous post.

Yes, he would cancel some lines of what Allah said, because it was condoning or allowing the worship of idols. Some of his disciples left him because they thought how could he be so audacious to alter Allah’s words.
PROOF !

Muhammad saw that it shocked his disciples so he said Gabriel came to him and said to “Cancel what Satan interjects.” I don’t know about you, but I am sure that Muhammad was supernaturally empowered. The question is by whom? Even He thought his revelations were demonically inspired and his women assured the tormented prophet that they are from Allah.
Muhammed never had any doubts on his revelation. I don't know what are you talking about, where are holding on? please show what is this opinion of yours based on.

That satisfied him even though he believed the witness of a woman is half that of a man because of their lack of intelligence or deficiency of their mind.
does Qur';an says anywhere "Woman is less intelligent than man??" ??? does it??
Qur'an all it says is that for witness, as for women there should be two that if one forgets the other reminds here. How do you to the conclusion to make the statement that "Women are less intelligence than man?" who was even talking about intelligence?? why are you twisting the words??
and btw, maybe you should checkout your Bible first, and see how women are precieved. by bible I don't think you should even be allowed to paricipate in this forum, bc you are a woman and you have no right to do anything.

My point is how could I be accountable to Allah for not receiving Muhammad’s witness when he doubted his own revelations and visions?
again, what are u talking about? who doubted his revelations? not even his companion doubted his revelation, let alone Muhammed saws. You points are so ridicilous, and very orientalist flavor. and you will be held accountable , cuz Muhammed was very sure about his revelations, and he was the most God-fearing than anyone else in this world.

No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation or visions.
Who said they were prophets?? did they recieved revelations? or just wrote was would please their leaders?

You say the Bible is not reliable. I don’t believe that. It is written "He that has the Son has life; He that has not the Son has not life but the wrath of God abides on them."

well, wether you like the truth or not, the bible is not reliable and has been corrupted. and there are many proofs, in any field wether anology, prophecy, historicaly, scientifically... whatever u want, all of them are but a failure and show that Bible is indeed corrupted. as I showed how they changed the meaning of the verses of John, on the greek manuscript due to the lack of word seperators.
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NoName55
06-06-2007, 12:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I don't believe it was Jibrail, it was an angel impersonating Jibrail. I can see a greater testimony of God in Paul's life. Here is a zealot who used to consent to the killing of Christians. He would hunt them down like animals having them killed and arrested. Suddenly, he is changed, because Jesus blinded him saying "You are persecuting me" The Christians Paul was hunting down believed in the deity of Jesus - they were Christians of the early church.

By the way, you want prove about the other thing. OK, but the proof is not going to convince you of anything, so why ask for it? Nevertheless, I ‘ll give it to you. I thought you would know about “Satanic Verse” It commanded them to worship idols: “ …Those swans are exalted; Their intercession is expected; Their likes are not neglected.” Muhammad cancelled these verses from Allah.
Suddenly, he is changed, because Jesus blinded him saying "You are persecuting me"
If you can't beat them join them

One could say that he thought; it is becoming difficult to destroy the believers as they are becoming numerous and stronger in Eemaan in Allah. So one way to destroy the believer is to do it from within the group. as is done by rafidah to believers of today.
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vpb
06-06-2007, 01:50 PM
If you can't beat them join them

One could say that he thought; it is becoming difficult to destroy the believers as they are becoming numerous and stronger in Eemaan in Allah. So one way to destroy the believer is to do it from within the group. as is done by rafidah to believers of today.
it's not the problem of joining after being a christian-killer, but the problem is that he was a christian-killer and then suddenly changed to Christianity, BUT we know nothing anymore about him. We don't know what life he lived, or who he was, what he did. that is the problem.
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Grace Seeker
06-06-2007, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
No, I disagree that the verse means what you say.

American Standard Version And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. My understanding of "we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God" is that when it says in his Son and then follows with this is the true God means that it is referring to other than the Son as being the true God. The beginning of the verse says that the Son of God gave an understanding of another (God) that is true.

Even in the version you used, I don't see how you come to the conclusion that you do. The term "this" still refers back to "Jesus Christ" as its antecedent.
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Eric H
06-06-2007, 08:03 PM
Greetings and peace be with you all, sorry to come in so late;

John 10
30 I and the Father are one."

Can Jesus and God the Father be one through the greatest commandments?

The Father loves all that he is with all his heart, mind soul and strength.
The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself?
Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself?

Can God love Jesus more than he loves himself?

Can it possibly be that if we are created in the greatest image of God, then we are given the greatest commandments for this purpose. Is the oneness striving for a perfect relationship to be as one like in a marraige.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
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Phil12123
06-06-2007, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you all, sorry to come in so late;

John 10
30 I and the Father are one."

Can Jesus and God the Father be one through the greatest commandments?

The Father loves all that he is with all his heart, mind soul and strength.
The Father loves Jesus as he loves himself?
Jesus loves the Father as he loves himself?

Can God love Jesus more than he loves himself?

Can it possibly be that if we are created in the greatest image of God, then we are given the greatest commandments for this purpose. Is the oneness striving for a perfect relationship to be as one like in a marraige.

In the spirit of searching

Eric

I might agree with you if I knew what you were trying to say. Sorry, you've confused me.

Peace
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Redeemed
06-06-2007, 09:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
If you can't beat them join them

One could say that he thought; it is becoming difficult to destroy the believers as they are becoming numerous and stronger in Eemaan in Allah. So one way to destroy the believer is to do it from within the group. as is done by rafidah to believers of today.
You don't really believe this do you?:?
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Woodrow
06-06-2007, 09:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
You don't really believe this do you?:?
I would say that is a simplified concept of what we believe Paul did to Christianity.

We do believe that Jesus(as) had the true word of Allah(swt) and that the early Christians were true Believers. However, Christianity was destroyed from within by the introduction of false teachings that began with Paul.

All that remains of Christianity is a shell of what it was and a strong belief of what it was never supposed to become. The Christians ceased being Christian when they began to worship Christ(as) as Allah(swt)
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vpb
06-06-2007, 10:24 PM
The situation was not comfortable for the Bible to be preserved due to the continuous hostility recieved from the jews at that time. so it was a perfect situation for the bible to be changed, and then later include stories from Paul and these other people.
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Redeemed
06-06-2007, 10:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I would say that is a simplified concept of what we believe Paul did to Christianity.

We do believe that Jesus(as) had the true word of Allah(swt) and that the early Christians were true Believers. However, Christianity was destroyed from within by the introduction of false teachings that began with Paul.

All that remains of Christianity is a shell of what it was and a strong belief of what it was never supposed to become. The Christians ceased being Christian when they began to worship Christ(as) as Allah(swt)
That argument seems to be a bit weak when Paul was a very intelligent apostel who counted all things as dung his life his wealth and health that he might win Christ. What are the chances of Muslims like yourselves becoming Christians cause u can't beat them?
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NoName55
06-06-2007, 11:26 PM
What are the chances of Muslims like yourselves becoming Christians cause u can't beat them?
unlike enemies of God, we are not allowed to be deceptive, so answer is none, zero, nil
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vpb
06-06-2007, 11:29 PM
it is impossible for a muslim who has knowledge about Islam to leave Islam, unless Allah swt wants so.

Islam is like the food, sometimes you can smell it, but in order to taste and you need to eat it. Nothing is compared to the beauty of Islam. If people would know what it offers, they would realize what is Islam.
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Keltoi
06-06-2007, 11:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
it is impossible for a muslim who has knowledge about Islam to leave Islam, unless Allah swt wants so.
It is impossible for a Muslim who has "knowledge" of Islam to leave Islam? Care to be more clear about what you mean?
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vpb
06-06-2007, 11:34 PM
It is impossible for a Muslim who has "knowledge" of Islam to leave Islam? Care to be more clear about what you mean?
If a muslims has knowledge about Islam, knows a lot about Islam, has knowledge on Qur'an , Hadith, etc. than it is impossible for him/her to leave Islam, unless Allah swt wants. because you get tied to Islam, you can see its beauty, and you would consider yourself crazy leaving that beauty. as the Prophet Muhammed saws said that if you would know what we have in our hearts , you would come with a sword to take it from our hearts. but we can't explain it, cuz the power of expressing our feelings is very limited.
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Redeemed
06-07-2007, 12:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
unlike enemies of God, we are not allowed to be deceptive, so answer is none, zero, nil
So what makes you think that Paul would do that?
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Redeemed
06-07-2007, 12:21 AM
I ask again if our salvation depends on us doing well or that our good tips the scale in our favor with Allah, then, what part is Allah's in our salvation. In other words, we can boast by saying it was my good works that saved us not our depending on Allah giving it to us. You say that I choose to sin, cause I ascribe a partner with God. I submit to you all that you do the same. For instance, to be a Muslim (so you say) and to be saved for eternity, you must say the Shahabad along with living right. Do you realize that you are ascribing Muhammad to God for your salvation and your works? You are saying I believe in Allah and his prophet. In other words, you must mention Muhammad; in that, you ascribing to God a partner even though you don’t worship him, he still must be mentioned. I didn’t get this from any book; the Lord showed me this!
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Woodrow
06-07-2007, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
That argument seems to be a bit weak when Paul was a very intelligent apostel who counted all things as dung his life his wealth and health that he might win Christ. What are the chances of Muslims like yourselves becoming Christians cause u can't beat them?
I will agree that Paul was very intelligent. I have heard many people describe him as being the original Ph.D of Christianity and he did know more about the Christianity of today than any other person possibly can. But, that is only logical as he was the architect of what Christianity became. Why he lead people to become trinitarians is something only he can answer and he only has to explain that to God(swt)

How and why he directed Christianity away from Christ(as) and God(swt) I will never know.
Perhaps it was to conquer the early Christians for Greece?
Perhaps he was misguided by a force?
Perhaps he felt he could improve upon what Christ(as) was teaching?

I can not imagine a Muslim leaving Islam for any reason. The Joy of living to serve Allah(swt) is much too great of a Joy to give up. It can not be explained, it has to be felt. Once it is felt, there is no need for any thing else.
I have no desire outside of giving all of the love I possibly can, to Allah(swt) alone. To love Allah(swt) is the greatest fulfillment a Human can have on Earth.
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NoName55
06-07-2007, 12:30 AM
you must say the Shahabad along with living right. Do you realize that you are ascribing Muhammad to God for your salvation and your works? You are saying I believe in Allah and his prophet. In other words, you must mention Muhammad; in that, you ascribing to God a partner even though you don’t worship him, he still must be mentioned. I didn’t get this from any book; the Lord showed me this!
I rest my case and resign from discussion with a modern day "prophet"
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Muslim Woman
06-07-2007, 12:33 AM



format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
It is impossible for a Muslim who has "knowledge" of Islam to leave Islam? Care to be more clear about what you mean?

There are more than 100 Imams ( minimum ) in the 2 holiest mosques of Muslim. I never heard that anyone left Islam .

But i read about some prominent Christian missionaries ( priests / pastors ) who left Christianity for Islam. Those who were holding higher positions in the Church , surely they were ' real ' Chrisitians ??? After studying their Bible & Quran , they choose Islam :D :)

hehe :p now u may give me a list of prominet Imams who lest Islam . If u want to do that , pl. give me specific info so that i can check . Pl. don't only browse anti-Islamic sites where they claimed that so & so left Islam without proper info .

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Muslim Woman
06-07-2007, 12:44 AM
:sl:







I seek refuge in Allah (The One God) from the Satan (devil) the cursed, the rejected

With the name of ALLAH (swt) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

The trinitarian believes a virgin to be the mother of a son who is her maker.
loll i like this sentence

funny & pathetic . No offence pl. but I came to a conclusion that Chrsitians are realllllllllllllllly extremelllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy intelligent people .

Otherwise , how it is possible for them to understand so many complicated concepts when Muslims failed to understand even one ? :blind:


I think , one of the best puzzles i heard is this one : a virgin to be the mother of a son who is her maker :rollseyes


Verses of the Day



Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses. ( 5: 78)


They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah ( God Almighty) sees well all that they do. ( chapter 5 , verses 70-71)



Say: "O people of the Book! Do ye disapprove of us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah ( God Almighty) , and the revelation that hath come to us and that which came before (us), and (perhaps) that most of you are rebellious and disobedient?"



..... Why do not the rabbis and the doctors of Law forbid them from their (habit of) uttering sinful words and eating things forbidden? Evil indeed are their works.


... If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.

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Redeemed
06-07-2007, 01:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I will agree that Paul was very intelligent. I have heard many people describe him as being the original Ph.D of Christianity and he did know more about the Christianity of today than any other person possibly can. But, that is only logical as he was the architect of what Christianity became. Why he lead people to become trinitarians is something only he can answer and he only has to explain that to God(swt)

How and why he directed Christianity away from Christ(as) and God(swt) I will never know.
Perhaps it was to conquer the early Christians for Greece?
Perhaps he was misguided by a force?
Perhaps he felt he could improve upon what Christ(as) was teaching?

I can not imagine a Muslim leaving Islam for any reason. The Joy of living to serve Allah(swt) is much too great of a Joy to give up. It can not be explained, it has to be felt. Once it is felt, there is no need for any thing else.
I have no desire outside of giving all of the love I possibly can, to Allah(swt) alone. To love Allah(swt) is the greatest fulfillment a Human can have on Earth.
To be honest with U I don't have any such feelings U speak of nor would I trust those feelings if I did. My feelings make a wonderful servant but a poor leader. The just shall live by faith. I agree that to love God with all our heart, soul and mind is the greatest fulfillment we can have. God however, has made all people nations and tongues to submit to Jesus. Life outside of these conditions is not possible. Without light we are blind; without the sun, trees die; without the Son, we are in darkness and our souls will die.
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Muslim Woman
06-07-2007, 01:23 AM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Woodrow : I will agree that Paul was very intelligent. I have heard many people describe him as being the original Ph.D of Christianity

It reminds me that a non-Muslim ..most probably Christian .......Micheal Hart ( spell check , pl. ) put Paul before Jesus (p) in his 100 most influenced persons in the world book.
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Woodrow
06-07-2007, 01:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
To be honest with U I don't have any such feelings U speak of nor would I trust those feelings if I did. My feelings make a wonderful servant but a poor leader. The just shall live by faith. I agree that to love God with all our heart, soul and mind is the greatest fulfillment we can have. God however, has made all people nations and tongues to submit to Jesus. Life outside of these conditions is not possible. Without light we are blind; without the sun, trees die; without the Son, we are in darkness and our souls will die.
Except it is a fallacy to believe Jesus(as) is God(swt). To live without worshiping God(swt) is darkness and without Him we are blind. Allah(swt) has made all of creation to worship Him. All people and all nations and all tongues are to submit to Him alone.
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MustafaMc
06-07-2007, 02:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
It is impossible for a Muslim who has "knowledge" of Islam to leave Islam? Care to be more clear about what you mean?
An analogy - Can you ever believe that the earth is flat as was once thought?

Well, neither can I believe again that Jesus (pbuh) was Son of God and at the same time fully God. This completely contradicts my understanding of the One God.
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جوري
06-07-2007, 02:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Except it is a fallacy to believe Jesus(as) is God(swt). To live without worshiping God(swt) is darkness and without Him we are blind. Allah(swt) has made all of creation to worship Him. All people and all nations and all tongues are to submit to Him alone.
Jesus PBUH was sent to the lost sheep of Bani Israel. "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Matthew

the whole man-kind bit, is a Paul ploy, and we frankly don't care for him... So Jesus isn't the savior of all humanity, but a specific group of humanity in that particular period of time! he isn't a son G-D or a G-D-- sometimes when I read these posts repeatedly I find them so absurd... I can't imagine a dialogue extended for pages over the same point.
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MustafaMc
06-07-2007, 02:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I submit to you all that you do the same. For instance, to be a Muslim (so you say) and to be saved for eternity, you must say the Shahabad along with living right. Do you realize that you are ascribing Muhammad to God for your salvation and your works? You are saying I believe in Allah and his prophet. In other words, you must mention Muhammad; in that, you ascribing to God a partner even though you don’t worship him, he still must be mentioned. I didn’t get this from any book; the Lord showed me this!
We do not place Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as an equal with Allah nor do any of us believe that he was more than a Servant of Allah, Prophet of Allah and Messenger of Allah. The first part of the shahada is about testifying that there is only one God as the fundamental, basic belief of Islam. The second part has to do with accepting Muhammad (pbuh) as a Messenger of Allah, the Quran revealed through Muhammad (pbuh) as the Word of Allah, and accepting his Sunnah (hadith & oral traditions) as the proper way to worship Allah and how to live one's life.

Is it enough to believe in Allah? Well, don't you think that Satan believes in Allah? Salvation is based on proper belief and submitting oneself to the Will of Allah as DEMONSTRATED by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
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Phil12123
06-07-2007, 04:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I would say that is a simplified concept of what we believe Paul did to Christianity.

We do believe that Jesus(as) had the true word of Allah(swt) and that the early Christians were true Believers. However, Christianity was destroyed from within by the introduction of false teachings that began with Paul.
What "false teachings that began with Paul"? And what were the true teachings of Jesus that he replaced with his false teachings? Can you be more specific or give me some examples, citing the verses written by Paul that show his "false teachings"?

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
All that remains of Christianity is a shell of what it was and a strong belief of what it was never supposed to become. The Christians ceased being Christian when they began to worship Christ(as) as Allah(swt)
If the "early Christians were true Believers" that would include Jesus' original 12 apostles (except Judas), right? Well, John was among them and perhaps the one closest to Jesus. Yet it is HE who penned John 1:1 and it is HE who gave the account of Thomas who fell at the risen Jesus' feet and said, "My Lord and my God." And during His earthly ministry, Jesus was worshipped by many and not once did He rebuke that worship. By contrast, Peter rebuked Cornelius and the angel rebuked John when they improperly worshipped someone other than God (Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 22:8-9). So it is wrong to think worship of Jesus did not begin till Paul came on the scene. It began among His first disciples when they slowly but surely came to realize Jesus was no mere man.

Peace
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Phil12123
06-07-2007, 04:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
funny & pathetic . No offence pl. but I came to a conclusion that Chrsitians are realllllllllllllllly extremelllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy intelligent people.

Otherwise, how it is possible for them to understand so many complicated concepts when Muslims failed to understand even one ? :blind:

I think, one of the best puzzles i heard is this one: a virgin to be the mother of a son who is her maker
You're much too modest, because you really are intelligent enough yourself to understand it. Just believe the Word of God:

John 1
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made[including all people including Mary].
14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

Luke 1
26. Now in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth,
27. to a virgin betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary.
28. And having come in, the angel said to her, "Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!''
29. But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was.
30. Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31. "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32. "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.
33. "And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.''
34. Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?''
35. And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
36. "Now indeed, Elizabeth your relative has also conceived a son in her old age; and this is now the sixth month for her who was called barren.
37. "For with God nothing will be impossible.''
38. Then Mary said, "Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.'' And the angel departed from her.

Now simple enough, isn't it?

Peace
Reply

Redeemed
06-07-2007, 04:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
We do not place Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as an equal with Allah nor do any of us believe that he was more than a Servant of Allah, Prophet of Allah and Messenger of Allah. The first part of the shahada is about testifying that there is only one God as the fundamental, basic belief of Islam. The second part has to do with accepting Muhammad (pbuh) as a Messenger of Allah, the Quran revealed through Muhammad (pbuh) as the Word of Allah, and accepting his Sunnah (hadith & oral traditions) as the proper way to worship Allah and how to live one's life.

Is it enough to believe in Allah? Well, don't you think that Satan believes in Allah? Salvation is based on proper belief and submitting oneself to the Will of Allah as DEMONSTRATED by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
I understand, but you still have to mention Muhammad in the Shahada as his messenger or you can't be a Muslim. I know you don't worship him, but his name must be mentioned as your declaration of submission. If you don't mention the name of the prophet, your profession to salvation is void; therefore, you do what you accuse us of for just a messenger who you ascribe to Allah as part of your Shahada that is necessary for your religion. We are the ones who confess to only one God and no prophet or messenger. This is what God showed me. The devil is the accuser of the saints. He is the big liar not us.
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Redeemed
06-07-2007, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
We do not place Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as an equal with Allah nor do any of us believe that he was more than a Servant of Allah, Prophet of Allah and Messenger of Allah. The first part of the shahada is about testifying that there is only one God as the fundamental, basic belief of Islam. The second part has to do with accepting Muhammad (pbuh) as a Messenger of Allah, the Quran revealed through Muhammad (pbuh) as the Word of Allah, and accepting his Sunnah (hadith & oral traditions) as the proper way to worship Allah and how to live one's life.

Is it enough to believe in Allah? Well, don't you think that Satan believes in Allah? Salvation is based on proper belief and submitting oneself to the Will of Allah as DEMONSTRATED by Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Of course, I know that the devils believe in one God and tremble that is Scriptural, but your response doesn't explain away my point!
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Redeemed
06-07-2007, 05:18 AM
Thus says the Lord: Do not listen to what the prophets say, they buoy you up with false hopes; the vision they report springs from their own imagination, it is not from the mouth of the Lord. They say to those who spurn the word of the Lord, Prosperity shall be yours;...No disaster shall befall you… The Lord’s anger is not to be turned aside, until he has accomplished and fulfilled his deep designs. In days to come you will fully understand. I did not send these prophets, yet they went in haste; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied. If they have stood in my council, let them proclaim my words to my people and turn them from their evil course and their evil doings. Am I a God only near at hand, not far away? Can a man hide in any secret place and I not see him? Do I not fill heaven and earth? This is the very word of the Lord.
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جوري
06-07-2007, 05:21 AM
it is amazing you can write all that, and still believe Saul the sworn nemesis of Jesus is a true prophet... That is curious but predictable go on drawing satisfaction from simplistic conclusion, Jesus died for your sins so you are free to commit as many as you can-- and yet feel saved-- you have a free pass after all.
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Redeemed
06-07-2007, 05:31 AM
I have heard what the prophets say, the prophets who speak lies in my name and cry, 'I have had a dream, a dream!' How long will it be till they change their tune, these prophets who prophesy lies and give voice to their own inventions?...I am against the prophets who steal my words from one another for their own use. I am against the prophets, says the Lord, who concoct words of their own and then say, 'This is the very word' I am against the prophets, says the Lord who dream lies and retail them, misleading my people with wild and reckless falsehoods. It was not I who sent them or commissioned them, and they will do this people no good. THIS IS THE VERY WORD OFTHE LORD.
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جوري
06-07-2007, 05:34 AM
indeed and yet you still follow the "trinity" AKA Greek Mythology of Saul... enjoy.. this is useless!..
We are clearly seeing something you are not!
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vpb
06-07-2007, 06:30 AM
I ask again if our salvation depends on us doing well or that our good tips the scale in our favor with Allah, then, what part is Allah's in our salvation. In other words, we can boast by saying it was my good works that saved us not our depending on Allah giving it to us. You say that I choose to sin, cause I ascribe a partner with God. I submit to you all that you do the same. For instance, to be a Muslim (so you say) and to be saved for eternity, you must say the Shahabad along with living right. Do you realize that you are ascribing Muhammad to God for your salvation and your works? You are saying I believe in Allah and his prophet. In other words, you must mention Muhammad; in that, you ascribing to God a partner even though you don’t worship him, he still must be mentioned. I didn’t get this from any book; the Lord showed me this!
about the salvation , it has already been discussed, so I'm going back to explain again. check the previous posts.
and as for the second part of your post,I think you are referring to the second part of Shahada,
La ilahe il-allah, Muhammed rasoolallah
the second part of shahada, is to declare the Muhammed is the messenger of Allah, what has this got to do with ascribing partnership to God???? it's just a statement, which is required so you believe that Muhammed saws is the messenger, bc if you don't say this part, then some people might just believe in Allah, but not in his messenger, and this goes against the teachings of Islam. I don't know on what basis just because you say Muhammed is Allah's messenger, you are ascribing partnership to God? the statement itself is saying that he is a messenger, so he cannot be a partner with God. And if you reject Muhammed as a propht, then you have to reject Qur'an, and if you reject Qur'an you have to reject Allah (astagfirullah), so part of shahada is that you must also declare that you must believe that Muhammed is his last messenger.but to clarify things,

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47: Narrated Abu Huraira:
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.
1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.
The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.

you see, on of the things of what is faith is to believe in his Apostles, so since other people believe in other Prophets, it is necessary to also believe in Muhammed as a messenger of Allah.


I hope you understood my point.
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vpb
06-07-2007, 06:39 AM
What "false teachings that began with Paul"? And what were the true teachings of Jesus that he replaced with his false teachings? Can you be more specific or give me some examples, citing the verses written by Paul that show his "false teachings"?
who know nothing about him, how the hell are we supposed to think that what he wrote are authentic. as I said before, the bible was in perfect time to be corrupted since christians were treated with hostility. I don't know how do you believe someone's writings when you know nothing about the author.

Well, John was among them and perhaps the one closest to Jesus. Yet it is HE who penned John 1:1 and it is HE who gave the account of Thomas who fell at the risen Jesus' feet and said, "My Lord and my God." And during His earthly ministry, Jesus was worshipped by many and not once did He rebuke that worship.
BIG LIE, please read the bible again, you will see how pious the Bible describe these disciples of Jesus were. Jesus never said or agreed for them to worship him ,this is a big lie invented by people. and Allah swt will punish those people who changed Allah's words for a small profit. Never did Jesus claim to be God. He only claimed to be messenger of Allah swt.
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vpb
06-07-2007, 06:43 AM
I understand, but you still have to mention Muhammad in the Shahada as his messenger or you can't be a Muslim. I know you don't worship him, but his name must be mentioned as your declaration of submission. If you don't mention the name of the prophet, your profession to salvation is void; therefore, you do what you accuse us of for just a messenger who you ascribe to Allah as part of your Shahada that is necessary for your religion. We are the ones who confess to only one God and no prophet or messenger. This is what God showed me. The devil is the accuser of the saints. He is the big liar not us.
yes, bc if you deny that Muhammed was a messenger you deny that Allah swt sent his last messenger, if you deny Muhammed was a messenger, you deny the Qur'an and the Sunnah, and if you deny all these than what's left of Islam, so a person has also to declare the Muhammed is his last messenger, so he agrees that he will act upon the teachings of Qur'an and the Sunnah.
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Eric H
06-07-2007, 06:45 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Phil;

The reason God said the commandments are greatest is because logically we should not be able to do anything greater. I believe that the power of these commandments can be tested when you use them to try and search for something greatest for God.

For the first commandment to apply then God must love all the things that he is and all that he does, and his intentions.

God loves all that he is with all his heart, soul mind and strength.

For the second commandment to apply to God.

God loves Christ and every one of his children as he loves himself.

Can God do anything greater? Can he love us more than he loves himself?

There is no proof for me to say these things, I have had no conscious revelations from God, but if you meditate on and challenge these words over the years, you will find nothing greater.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
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vpb
06-07-2007, 06:58 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Phil;

The reason God said the commandments are greatest is because logically we should not be able to do anything greater. I believe that the power of these commandments can be tested when you use them to try and search for something greatest for God.

For the first commandment to apply then God must love all the things that he is and all that he does, and his intentions.

God loves all that he is with all his heart, soul mind and strength.

For the second commandment to apply to God.

God loves Christ and every one of his children as he loves himself.

Can God do anything greater? Can he love us more than he loves himself?

There is no proof for me to say these things, I have had no conscious revelations from God, but if you meditate on and challenge these words over the years, you will find nothing greater.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
with all my respect to you, since you are a very good poster,
but not everything evolves around Love, you can't have faith in God just with love, 100% love, it doesn't work like that, it spoils it.
What would happen if we have only had Love between parents and kids?? would kids behave anymore? no, maybe 0.01% of them. The danger with christianity is this teaching of love, which people can do whatever the hell they want, and the end it's "Jesus loves us, he did pay for our sins", it's not like that. we as muslims we love Allah swt, and He loves us, but we also Fear him, bc Fear is a sign of humiliation, and we get humiliated in front of Allah swt, and we worship him , bc we love Allah swt, but we also worship him bc if we don't we recieve a punishment. If you break the balance between love and fear, than everything's lost. So you need to keep a balance between. If a person only fears Allah and not love him, then he will basically reject the fact that Allah is mercifull, that he forgives people, but if he only loves allah and not fear him, then he is rejecting the fact that Allah swt has power to punish us. So you need to keep a balance between.
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Eric H
06-07-2007, 09:55 AM
Greetings and peace be with you vpb; and thank you for your thoughtful reply.

Sorry but I forgot to copy the name of the person who posted this on the forum some time ago.

Ibn al Qayyim, a famous scholar said that fearing and loving Allaah is like the two wings of a bird, if one wing was to outweigh the other - then it would cause an imbalance and make the bird fall.

In christianity and judaism [who were guided once upon a time] have actually given up on the aspect of fear, and only believe in love and salvation. If a person relies on these two aspects only, they are likely to gradually give up on their obedience because the person believes that Allaah's mercy will descend upon them anyway - so they may do evil without fear of punishment for their actions.
I do take notice of how Muslims believe and Islam helps me to widen my understanding of Christianity. In order to love God I should strive to do the things that please God and not do the things that would please me if these things are in conflict to God’s commands. In many ways to love God and to submit to God are very closely related. In christianity we should also fear God.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
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NoName55
06-07-2007, 10:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
................



If the "early Christians were true Believers" that would include Jesus' original 12 apostles (except Judas), right? Well, John was among them and perhaps the one closest to Jesus. Yet it is HE who penned John 1:1 and it is HE who gave the account of Thomas who fell at the risen Jesus' feet and said, "My Lord and my God." And during His earthly ministry, Jesus was worshipped by many and not once did He rebuke that worship. By contrast, Peter rebuked Cornelius and the angel rebuked John when they improperly worshipped someone other than God (Acts 10:25-26; Rev. 22:8-9). So it is wrong to think worship of Jesus did not begin till Paul came on the scene. It began among His first disciples when they slowly but surely came to realize Jesus was no mere man.

Peace
Sorry to have to rain on your parade but me thinks John the Apostle was one person while on the other hand John the author was 3 persons.

"At different times John the Apostle has been identified as the author of all or most of the New Testament works attributed to a writer named John. Some modern scholars distinguish at least three different authors. The creator of the Gospel of John and the First Epistle of John is known as John the Evangelist, John the Theologian or John the Divine. The Second and Third Epistle of John had the same author, who calls himself the presbyter; he has been identified with the enigmatic John the Presbyter. The Book of Revelation was written by John of Patmos. Most evangelical Christians continue to hold that all New Testament "John" books were written by John the son of Zebedee. The apocryphal 2nd century Gnostic text called Secret Book of John was also attributed to John.

The Gospel of John contains references to the "disciple whom Jesus loved". Traditionally this was taken as a self reference by the author, and therefore a reference to John the Apostle".
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vpb
06-07-2007, 10:31 AM
I do take notice of how Muslims believe and Islam helps me to widen my understanding of Christianity. In order to love God I should strive to do the things that please God and not do the things that would please me if these things are in conflict to God’s commands. In many ways to love God and to submit to God are very closely related. In christianity we should also fear God.

In the spirit of searching

Eric
I like the way you respond to posts. you seem to be a very calm person :)
maybe some christians here would be good to take advices from you.
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Woodrow
06-07-2007, 12:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I have heard what the prophets say, the prophets who speak lies in my name and cry, 'I have had a dream, a dream!' How long will it be till they change their tune, these prophets who prophesy lies and give voice to their own inventions?...I am against the prophets who steal my words from one another for their own use. I am against the prophets, says the Lord, who concoct words of their own and then say, 'This is the very word' I am against the prophets, says the Lord who dream lies and retail them, misleading my people with wild and reckless falsehoods. It was not I who sent them or commissioned them, and they will do this people no good. THIS IS THE VERY WORD OFTHE LORD.
I firmly believe you just gave an accurate description of what Paul did to Christianity. Prior to Paul the true Christians worshipped God(swt) after Paul it seems Christianity died and was replaced by the worship of Jesus(as). The influence of Paul can not be overstated.

I beleive Paul truly thought he was inspired. It is a very dangerous combination when a very intelligent person has been misguided as they have the ability to influence many.
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Phil12123
06-07-2007, 12:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
We accept the Quran as the literal Word of God and it promises Paradise to the believers over and over again. We stand on the Promises of God and do not rely upon our "good works" to earn us salvation. Yes, we hope in the Mercy of Allah with no guarantee that we are in fact saved as only Allah can judge our faith and deeds as being sincere or hypocritical.
Well, of course, all the promises of Paradise in the Quran are only to “believers” again and again, but it’s not simply “believers” who will reap the benefit of those promises. It is only the believers whose good works outweigh their evil works. Even your prayers are judged, so that if your “obligatory” prayers fall short, they better be made up for with your “voluntary” prayers, or you’re in big trouble. So, don’t tell me you don’t rely on your good works to earn you salvation. That is EXACTLY what you do, whether you want to admit it or not. Your last sentence confirms it---Allah judges your faith and deeds to determine if they were sincere or hypocritical. Again, your deeds, your works, YOU.

Contrast that with the believer in Christ. It is Christ’s Work of redemption that purchases my salvation. No works or deeds of mine removes my sins; only HIS shed blood is able to wash away my sins. All my sins were judged at the cross. My future judgment is one of determining the quality of my works for purposes of rewards, not punishment.
1 Cor. 3:
11. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13. each one's work will become manifest; for the [Judgment] Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The Christian whose works do not endure, i.e., are of no eternal value (has nothing but wood, hay, and straw for works), will suffer loss---of rewards---but he himself will be saved---because he had the right foundation (Jesus Christ). He need never rely on his works to save him. Christ has already saved him by His Work at the cross.


format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
We believe that what Christians are so sure about is a false hope - a mirage.
No, because it is based on the Word of God and confirmed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Yes, one Day we will all know whether we built our house upon the solid rock or the shifting sand.
That is exactly right. And if your house is not built on the solid rock of Jesus Christ---the ONLY firm foundation---you will suffer eternal loss. But if you wait till the Judgment Day to make Him your firm foundation, it will be too late. That is exactly what Satan is hoping you do---wait and see…too late.

Peace
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Phil12123
06-07-2007, 12:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
Sorry to have to rain on your parade but me thinks John the Apostle was one person while on the other hand John the author was 3 persons.
Me thinks you think wrongly.

Your quote, source ungiven, concludes with this sentence:

The Gospel of John contains references to the "disciple whom Jesus loved". Traditionally this was taken as a self reference by the author, and therefore a reference to John the Apostle.
I would agree with that. It says John the Apostle is the author of the Gospel of John. That is what I was saying in my post. The writer, John the Apostle, was perhaps the closest Apostle or disciple to Jesus, and it is HE who penned John 1:1 and John 20:28, indicating that the first disciples worshipped Jesus and accepted His Deity long before Paul came on the scene.

Peace
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vpb
06-07-2007, 01:04 PM
Contrast that with the believer in Christ. It is Christ’s Work of redemption that purchases my salvation. No works or deeds of mine removes my sins; only HIS shed blood is able to wash away my sins. All my sins were judged at the cross. My future judgment is one of determining the quality of my works for purposes of rewards, not punishment.
this is even more dangrous than Atheism, bc with this you basically can do whatever the hell you want, and still JESUS ALLWAYS PAYS :thumbs_up .

you know why are you still living? if all your sins are paid what's the purpose of life then for you to live? whatever you do, it doesn't metter, still at the end of the day your sins are "paid by Jesus's blood". you are lying to yourself, nobody will pay for your sins, nobody will be held accountable for you, it will be you and only you, you were born by yourself, and you will go to the grave by yourself, and you will be judgded, and noboy will be able help you . as we know from hadiths, even Mary will forget about Jesus on the day of judgement due to the panic that will be among people. Jesus is going to be preoccupied about himself, so I don't know how are u expecting for him to pay for your sins. wake up. lolll
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NoName55
06-07-2007, 01:08 PM
your quote, source ungiven, concludes with this sentence
so distortion is the name of the game?

quote by anon does no such thing but says:
"Traditionally this was taken as a self reference by the author"

was the following line invisible?
"Some modern scholars distinguish at least three different authors."

wa salam
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Keltoi
06-07-2007, 01:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
so distortion is the name of the game?

quote by anon does no such thing but says:
"Traditionally this was taken as a self reference by the author"

was the following line invisible?
"Some modern scholars distinguish at least three different authors."

wa salam
"Some modern authors distinguish at least three different authors"....is that sentence supposed to be profound? I can find some scholars who believe Allah is a moon god.

The more I read of this thread the more I'm beginning to think comparitive religion is a lost cause. It's like a group of four year olds arguing about who would win in a fight between Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk.
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vpb
06-07-2007, 01:21 PM
I can find some scholars who believe Allah is a moon god.
yeah non-muslim scholars probably.
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NoName55
06-07-2007, 01:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
"Some modern authors distinguish at least three different authors"....is that sentence supposed to be profound? I can find some scholars who believe Allah is a moon god.

The more I read of this thread the more I'm beginning to think comparitive religion is a lost cause. It's like a group of four year olds arguing about who would win in a fight between Spider-Man and The Incredible Hulk.
So distortion and belittling is name of the game!

"Scholars" you are talking about re: Allah are anti-Islam evanglists perhaps not so unlike yourself.

The Scholars I am referring to are Christians (pro Saul and Trinity)

oh and does it really make you feel all grown up when you constantly refer to others as 4 year old?
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vpb
06-07-2007, 01:37 PM

1. Who wrote the Gospel of John?
Of all the gospels, the Gospel of John is the most disputed concerning authorship. The data to assess are greater in quantity than the data relevant to the authorship of the synoptic gospels.
1.1. Internal, Direct Evidence
1.1.1. There are two pieces of internal, direct evidence to consider. What is said about the author of the Gospel of John in the following passages?
A. John 21:20-24
20 Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on his breast at the supper and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays you?" 21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, "Lord, and what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me." 23 Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?" 24 This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and wrote these things, and we know that his testimony is true. In John 21, the Postscript of the gospel, "the disciple whom Jesus loved" is said to be the one who witnessed to these things and who wrote these things (21:24); he is, in other words, not only the author but the authority standing behind the gospel. The disciple whom Jesus loved is said to be the one who leaned back on Jesus' breast to talk to Jesus during the meal. Since he asks Jesus about this disciple, Peter is eliminated as a candidate for "the disciple whom Jesus loved."
B. John 19:25-35
25 Therefore the soldiers did these things. But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus then saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Woman, behold, your son." 27 Then he said to the disciple, "Behold, your mother." From that hour the disciple took her into his own household. 28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, "I am thirsty." 29 A jar full of sour wine was standing there; so they put a sponge full of the sour wine upon a branch of hyssop and brought it up to his mouth. 30 Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished." And he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. 31 Then the Jews, because it was the day of preparation, so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 So the soldiers came, and broke the legs of the first man and of the other who was crucified with him; 33 but coming to Jesus, when they saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. In John 19:25-27, the author identifies "the disciple whom he [Jesus] loved" as the one whose testimony is true and worthy of belief. When Jesus was dying on the cross, around him stood four women and one man, identified as the one whom Jesus loved. Later, the author affirms that the testimony of the man who witnessed Jesus' death is true (19:35); the testimony refers most likely to the traditions about Jesus that have been incorporated into the Gospel of John. This man most likely is "the disciple whom he [Jesus] loved" mentioned earlier, since he is the only man present at Jesus' crucifixion.
1.1.2. The two individuals referred to in John 19:35; 21:24 are no doubt the same man, since they bear the same designation, "the disciple whom Jesus loved." If it is possible to put a name to this man, then the author of the gospel of John can be identified. Two other references to "the disciple whom Jesus loved" occur in the Gospel of John. What further information do these references give about the author?
A. John 13:23, 25
23 There was reclining on Jesus' breast, one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 24 So Simon Peter gestured to him, and said to him, "Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking." 25 He, leaning back thus on Jesus' breast, said to him, "Lord, who is it?" The "one whom Jesus loved" reclined at the breast of Jesus and leaned back to speak to him. He could not have been Peter, since he spoke to him.
Incidentally, the description of the disciple whom Jesus loved as reclining "on Jesus' breast" (13:23) and who leaned back on Jesus' breast at the supper to talk to him (13:25) refers to the fact that this disciple was sharing a triclinium (couch on which two or three people reclined to eat) with Jesus and was positioned in front of Jesus on the triclinium; thus he was reclining "on Jesus' breast." In order to to talk to Jesus discreetly, this disciple would be forced to lean backwards "on Jesus' breast." There may have been another disciple behind Jesus on the same triclinium, but this one is not identified.
B. John 21:2-7
2 Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples were together. 3 Simon Peter said to them, "I am going fishing." They said to him, "We will also come with you." They went out and got into the boat; and that night they caught nothing. 4 But when the day was now breaking, Jesus stood on the beach; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5 So Jesus said to them, "Children, you do not have any fish, do you?" They answered him, "No." 6 And he said to them, "Cast the net on the right-hand side of the boat and you will find a catch." So they cast, and then they were not able to haul it in because of the great number of fish. 7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord." So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put his outer garment on (for he was stripped for work), and threw himself into the sea. The "one whom Jesus loved" was one of the disciples who went fishing with Peter. He was one of the disciples named or one of the two unnamed disciples, but he was not Peter.
1.1.3. It should be added that, since in 20:2 the designation "the one whom Jesus loved" is set in apposition with "the other disciple," it is possible that the reference to "another disciple" in 18:15-16 could be a self-designation of the author. If so, then the author was known to the high priest.
1.1.4. In summary, one can speculate that the following took place: The author wrote the gospel designating himself as "the disciple whom Jesus loved," but refrained from identifying this disciple by name in any of the narratives in which he appeared. His original readership presumably knew his identity, but an editor, concerned that there might be some future readers who would not know the connection between the author and "the disciple whom Jesus loved," added 21:24 and 19:35 to ensure that this connection was made explicit in the text. It seems that the editor did this in order that the readers might know that the author was an eyewitness to the events described, thereby rendering the accounts credible.
1.2. Internal, Indirect Evidence
There is some internal, indirect evidence to consider with respect to the authorship of the Gospel of John.
1.2.1. The author is familiar with the geographical features of Palestine.
A. He is familiar with Galilee, Samaria and Judea (see 1:28 [11:1]; 2:1, 12; 3:23; 4:20; 11:54; 12:21).
B. He is also familiar with the city of Jerusalem (see 5:2; 9:7; 11:18; 18:1, 28; 19:17) and the Temple (2:14, 20; 8:2, 20; 10:23).
What does this familiarity with the geographical features of Palestine imply about the author?
The fact that the author possessed such detailed geographical knowledge about Palestine implies he was a resident of Palestine, who had frequented these places.
1.2.2. The author is acquainted with the social and religious conditions of Palestine (see 4:9; 7:35; 11:49; 18:13, 28, 31, 39). Likewise, he is also familiar with Jewish and Samaritan religious beliefs (see 1:41, 46; 4:9, 25; 6:15), and he is well acquainted with how Jewish festivals were celebrated at the Temple and with purification rites: Passover (2:13, 23; 6:4; 13:1; 18:28); Tabernacles (7:2, 37); Dedication (10:22); Purification rites (2:6; 3:25; 11:55; 18:28; 19:31). What does the fact that the author has such knowledge imply about him?
To have such detailed knowledge of the social and religious conditions of Palestine and Jewish and Samaritan religious beliefs implies that the author had first-hand experience of Jews and Samaritans, which suggests that he is from Palestine. His good knowledge of the Temple and Jewish festivals implies that he was a participant in the various Jewish festivals, which suggests that he was a Palestinian Jew. His knowledge of Jewish purification rites is consistent with first-hand experience.
1.2.3. The author seems to have been an eyewitness to the events that he is describing; this is debatable, but the general impression is that the accounts derive from an eyewitness (see 1:29, 35, 39; 7:14; 11:6; 12:1; 13:1-2; 19:14, 31; 20:1, 19, 26). Similarly, the author has a good knowledge of the apostolic group (see 2:11, 17; 4:27, 33; 6:19, 60-61; 16:17; 20:25; 21:3, 7). What does the fact that the author has such knowledge imply about his identity?
To be an eyewitness and to have a good knowledge of the apostolic group implies either that the author himself was one of the twelve or that at least he was a follower of Jesus who had much contact with the twelve.
1.2.4. The author seems to have written his gospel in Aramaic or a very Semitic type of Greek. Concerning the details relating to the Aramaic/Semitic features of the gospel there is much dispute; the following is a list of those grammatical features of John that most scholars agree suggest that the text is translated Aramaic or bears the influence of an author who thought in Aramaic but wrote in Greek.
A. Transliterated Aramaic words (1:38, 41, 42; 4:25; 9:7; 11:16; 19:13, 17; 20:16; 21:2)
B. Parataxis: the joining together of main clauses with "and" (kai), corresponding to the waw-consecutive construction in Aramaic/Hebrew (e.g., 9:6-7)
C. Asundeton construction: the lack of coordinating conjunctions between clauses (e.g., 4:6, 7)
D. Beginning sentences with verbs (not seen in English translation) (It is standard feature of Hebrew/Aramaic to begin a sentence with a verb.)
E. Excessive use of the Greek conjunctions hoti and hina, which corresponds to the frequent use of the Aramaic de, i.e., as a conjunction
F. The exceptional simplicity of the Greek and the limitations of its vocabulary
What do these linguistic data suggest about the author's identity?
These linguistic data suggest that the author's mother tongue was not Greek, but Aramaic. Such an author would have the tendency to cite Aramaic words and be influenced by Aramaic syntax when writing in Greek (parataxis, asundeton, beginning sentences with verbs and the use of the Greek equivalents of the much used conjunction de in Aramaic). Also, an author whose first language was Aramaic may have a limited Greek vocabulary and be unable to write Greek except with a simplicity of style.
1.3. External Evidence
The external evidence identifies John the son of Zebedee as the author of the Gospel of John. In fact, when one leaves out of considerastion the heretics mentioned by Irenaeus (Adv. haer. 3.11.9) and Epiphanius (Haer. 51.3), no one in the church seriously questioned the authenticity of the Gospel of John until the rise of biblical criticism in the eighteenth century.
1.3.1. In his rebuttal of Autolycus, Theophilos of Antioch c. 181 attributed the Gospel of John to John, by whom he no doubt meant the apostle John, the son of Zebedee (Autol. 2.22).
You will say, then, to me: "You said that God ought not to be contained in a place, and how do you now say that He walked in Paradise? "Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam. For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice. But what else is this voice but the Word of God, who is also His Son? Not as the poets and writers of myths talk of the sons of gods begotten from intercourse [with women], but as truth expounds, the Word, that always exists, residing within the heart of God. For before anything came into being He had Him as a counsellor, being His own mind and thought. But when God wished to make all that He determined on, He begot this Word, uttered, the first-born of all creation, not Himself being emptied of the Word [Reason], but having begotten Reason, and always conversing with His Reason. And hence the holy writings teach us, and all the spirit-bearing [inspired] men, one of whom, John, says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God," showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in Him. Then he says, "The Word was God; all things came into existence through Him; and apart from Him not one thing came into existence." The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place. 1.3.2. Irenaeus (130-c. 200) identifies John the apostle, the son of Zebedee, as the author of the Gospel of John.
A. Eusebius quotes two passages from Irenaeus’s Against Heresies to prove that John, the disciple of the Lord, resided in Ephesus after Paul's death. Ireneaus says that John was a "true witness" of the apostolic tradition there; Eusebius identifies the John to whom Irenaeus refers as John the apostle and evangelist, the disciple whom Jesus loved (H.E. 3. 23. 3).
Adv. Haer. 2.22.5. They, however, that they may establish their false opinion regarding that which is written, "to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord," maintain that He preached for one year only, and then suffered in the twelfth month. [In speaking thus], they are forgetful to their own disadvantage, destroying His whole work, and robbing Him of that age which is both more necessary and more honorable than any other; that more advanced age, I mean, during which also as a teacher He excelled all others. For how could He have had disciples, if He did not teach? And how could He have taught, unless He had reached the age of a Master? For when He came to be baptized, He had not yet completed His thirtieth year, but was beginning to be about thirty years of age (for thus Luke, who has mentioned His years, has expressed it: "Now Jesus was, as it were, beginning to be thirty years old," when He came to receive baptism); and, [according to these men, ] He preached only one year reckoning from His baptism. On completing His thirtieth year He suffered, being in fact still a young man, and who had by no means attained to advanced age. Now, that the first stage of early life embraces thirty years, and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth and fiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information. And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan. Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement. Whom then should we rather believe? Whether such men as these, or Ptolemaeus, who never saw the apostles, and who never even in his dreams attained to the slightest trace of an apostle? Adv. Haer. 3.3.4. But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he remained [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time—a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles,-that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within." And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, "Do you know me? ""I do know you, the first-born of Satan." Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, "A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sins, being condemned of himself." There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles. B. In another place, Irenaeus, as Eusebius points out (H.E. 5. 8. 4), states that John, the disciple of the Lord, the one who rested on Jesus' breast (ho kai epi to stêthos autou anapesôn), produced his gospel while living in Ephesus (H.E. 5.8.4; Adv. Haer. 3. 3. 4). Since he is identified in the Gospel of John as the one who reclined at Jesus' breast, "the disciple whom Jesus loved" must be John the disciple, the author of the Gospel of John.
Adv. Haer. 3.1.1. We have learned from none others the plan of our salvation, than from those through whom the Gospel has come down to us, which they did at one time proclaim in public, and, at a later period, by the will of God, handed down to us in the Scriptures, to be the ground and pillar of our faith. 2 For it is unlawful to assert that they preached before they possessed "perfect knowledge," as some do even venture to say, boasting themselves as improvers of the apostles. For, after our Lord rose from the dead, [the apostles] were invested with power from on high when the Holy Spirit came down [upon them], were filled from all [His gifts], and had perfect knowledge: they departed to the ends of the earth, preaching the glad tidings of the good things [sent] from God to us, and proclaiming the peace of heaven to men, who indeed do all equally and individually possess the Gospel of God. Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews3 in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia. C. The source for Irenaeus's knowledge of the origins of the Gospel of John seems to be Polycarp (69-155), whom Irenaeus knew in his youth and who knew the apostles, including John. Polycarp is a bridge between the generation of the apostles and that of Irenaeus:
1. Eusebius quotes from a letter that Irenaeus wrote to Florinus; in which he states that he used to listen to Polycarp speak about what the apostles did and said, including John (H.E.5. 20. 4-8)
2. As Eusebius points out (H.E. 4. 14. 1-8), Irenaeus claimed that Polycarp knew the apostles, was appointed bishop of Smyrna by the apostles and communicated what he had learned from the apostles to the younger generation. Irenaeus said that he saw (and presumably heard) Polycarp in his early youth (Adv. Haer. 3. 3. 4).
D. Some have disputed the accuracy of Irenaeus' claim that John the apostle, the son of Zebedee, wrote the fourth gospel, arguing that the gospel was written by another John who also resided in Ephesus. In H.E. 3.39.1-6, Eusebius rejects Irenaeus' assertion that Papias was "a hearer of John," meaning John the apostle, since Eusebius claims that he knows for a fact that Papias had no contact with the apostles. Immediately following, Eusebius quotes a passage from Papias wherein he makes mention of two Johns; Eusebius interprets this to mean that there were two John associated with Ephesus: John the apostle and a John referred to as the elder. (In Eusebius' view, the fact that there are two tombs in Ephesus bearing the name of John confirms his theory.) Combining these two data, some scholars have suggested that Irenaeus confused these two Johns, wrongly assuming that the John to whom Polycarp referred was John the apostle, when he was really John the elder. But, even assuming that Irenaeus was mistaken when he affirmed that Papias was a hearer of John the apostle, this argument is too conjectural to be convincing.
1.3.3. Other second-century sources confirm the Irenaeus' testimony to the Johannine authorship of the fourth gospel.
A. As quoted by Eusebius, Clement of Alexandria (150-c.215) wrote in his Hypotyposeis, "But that John last of all, conscious of the outward (lit. "bodily") facts that had been set forth in the gospels was urged on by his disciples, and, divinely moved by the Spirit, composed a spiritual gospel" (H.E. 6.14.7).
B. The Muratorian canon also attributes the gospel to John the apostle: "The fourth gospel is that of John, one of the disciples....When his fellow-disciples and bishops exhorted him, he said, 'Fast with me for three days from today, and then let us relate to one another whatever may be revealed to each of us.' On the same night it was revealed to Andrew one of the apostles that John should narrate all things in his own name as they remembered them..."
1.3.4. Is the external evidence consistent with the internal evidence?
The external evidence is fully consistent, since John was one of the disciples, and could easily have been "the beloved disciple."
1.4. What do you conclude about the authorship of the Gospel of John? Is the dispute about the authorship of the gospel justified?
The author of the Gospel of John was John the son of Zebedee, the apostle. There are no grounds for doubting this.
1.5. In spite of the internal and external evidence, many scholars believe that John the son of Zebedee could not have written the fourth gospel because, as an account of the life of Jesus, it is unhistorical and as such is incompatible with having an eyewitness origin. While it is sometimes conceded that some events described in the gospel have an historical basis, many scholars hold that the Johannine discourses are historical fabrications, reflecting the theological views of the anonymous community that produced it. The main reason for rejecting the historicity of the discourses is that the Johannine Jesus says things about himself that the historical Jesus allegedly would never have said. He makes statements that presuppose his pre-existence with God (3:11-13; 6:32-33,41-42, 46; 7:33-34; 8:23, 26, 29, 38, 42, 56-58; see 1:15). In addition, he understands himself as the unique son of God, having a relationship with the Father that no human being can have (5:17-47; 8:19, 28; 10:31-39). His opponents even interpret his claim to have God as his Father as making himself equal to God (5:18). This line of argumentation, however, begs the question because it presupposes what the historical Jesus could have believed and said about himself. It would seem that the evidence best supports the position that John the son of Zebedee, as a supplement to the synoptic gospels, chose to include in his gospel accurate summaries translated into his distinctive Greek of what Jesus said in some of his more extended and private conversations with other people. Besides, Jesus twice refers to himself as "son" in the synoptic gospels, so that the Gospel of John is not exclusive in this regard (Mark 13:32; Luke 10:22 = Matt 11:27).

2. For whom was the Gospel of John written?
As already indicated, early tradition places John the son of Zebedee in Ephesus when he composed his gospel. What do you conclude from this about the intended readership?
John probably wrote for the Ephesians or maybe the churches in Asia Minor in general.

3. When was the Gospel of John written?
Dating the Gospel of John is difficult, if not impossible; some place it before 70 and others as late as the 90's. The evidence is insufficient to draw a firm conclusion. The Monarchian Prologue to the Gospel of John Fourth Gospel states that John wrote the gospel sometime after his exile of the island of Patmos (He is considered to be the author of the Book of Revelation): "He [the Apostle John] wrote this Gospel in the Province of Asia, after he had composed Revelation on the Island of Patmos." Whether this is true is difficult to know. It should also be noted that it was once thought that the Gospel of John was written well into the second century, but the discovery of a fragment of a copy of the Gospel of John, known as Rylands Papyrus 457, which is dated to no later than 150, suggests that the gospel was written earlier than the second century, since it would take some time for the gospel to have a wide circulation.

4. Where was the Gospel of John written?
From what has been concluded so far, where was the Gospel of John written?
The Gospel of John was written in or near Ephesus.

For the full article check : http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/John.htm
Reply

Keltoi
06-07-2007, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
So distortion and belittling is name of the game!

"Scholars" you are talking about re: Allah are anti-Islam evanglists perhaps not so unlike yourself.

The Scholars I am referring to are Christians (pro Saul and Trinity)

oh and does it really make you feel all grown up when you constantly refer to others as 4 year old?
I type the words "some scholars think Allah is a moon god" and I'm an anti-Islam? If that is the criteria we are now using then every Muslim who has posted on this thread is anti-Christian, since they have stated much worse about my faith. I didn't say I believed Allah was a moon god, I was pointing out how unhelpful it is to cite "scholars" who say one thing or another. As for being a 4 year old, I included myself in the mix. I'm just as guilty of this pointless back and forth.
Reply

vpb
06-07-2007, 01:37 PM
any comments on the article above?
Reply

vpb
06-07-2007, 01:40 PM
you don't know the exact author of the Gospel of John, you don't know for sure when it was written, you don't know for sure where it was written......??? how is this text supposed to be authentic?
Reply

Phil12123
06-07-2007, 02:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
this is even more dangrous than Atheism, bc with this you basically can do whatever the hell you want, and still JESUS ALWAYS PAYS.

you know why are you still living? if all your sins are paid what's the purpose of life then for you to live? whatever you do, it doesn't metter, still at the end of the day your sins are "paid by Jesus's blood".
Yes, Jesus paid for my sins with His own blood, and that payment was IN FULL for ALL my sins. "We love Him because He first loved us" (1 John 4:19). Because He loved me and died for me, I love Him and, in gratitude for all He did for me, I live to serve and please Him. So, I don't even think like you speak ("do whatever the hell you want"). Why am I still living? Because He has not chosen to take me home (heaven) yet. When He does, I will live no more in this body, but in Heaven with Him! Praise God! 2 Cor. 5:9 says, "Therefore we make it our aim, whether present or absent [from the body], to be well pleasing to Him."

format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
you are lying to yourself, nobody will pay for your sins, nobody will be held accountable for you, it will be you and only you, you were born by yourself, and you will go to the grave by yourself, and you will be judgded, and noboy will be able help you . as we know from hadiths, even Mary will forget about Jesus on the day of judgement due to the panic that will be among people. Jesus is going to be preoccupied about himself, so I don't know how are u expecting for him to pay for your sins. wake up. lolll
Wrong. wrong. wrong. I am not lying to myself because I did not originate this "good news" (Gospel) but God Himself did. I know to your unregenerate mind, it is foolishness. I expect nothing else. When you receive and believe, if you ever do, you will understand and you will rejoice with me and the millions who have done likewise down through the ages since He demonstrated that great love at Calvary. For you to spurn that love and reject His offer of eternal life as a free gift, is to sentence yourself to an eternity of indescribable loss. You are a lost sinner now, as I was many years ago, but your lostness now is nothing compared to your future state, if you remain in unbelief.

Peace
Reply

جوري
06-07-2007, 03:00 PM
I guess all of us 1.86 billion Muslims will just take ouR chances than swap for Greek Mythology!

peace!
Reply

Phil12123
06-07-2007, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
you don't know the exact author of the Gospel of John, you don't know for sure when it was written, you don't know for sure where it was written......??? how is this text supposed to be authentic?
And I haven't put my hand into Jesus' wounds either, like He invited Thomas to do. That makes me more blessed than Thomas:

John 20:
24. But Thomas, called Didymus, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.
25. The other disciples therefore said to him, "We have seen the Lord.'' But he said to them, "Unless I see in His hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and put my hand into His side, I will not believe.''
26. And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!''
27. Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing.''
28. And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!''
29. Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.''


Jesus also gave the account of Lazarus and the rich man, the latter going to hell and later begging Abraham to send Lazarus back to life to warn the rich man's brothers about hell. What was Abraham's response to that request? "If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.''

You don't hear Moses and the prophets concerning all that was said of Jesus and you don't hear the Gospel of John or anything else in the New Testament. I do. So what difference does it make to you when, where, or how the Gospel of John was written? You wouldn't believe it anyway, right?

Peace
Reply

Phil12123
06-07-2007, 03:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I guess all of us 1.86 billion Muslims will just take our chances than swap for Greek Mythology!
No one is saying you should switch from Islam to Greek Mythology. To my knowledge, there are no Greek mythologists on this board suggesting that.

What I suggest is that you will have to pay for every single sin you ever committed, in word, thought, or deed, if you don't accept Jesus' payment for you. Every sin must be paid for, by someone---either the person who committed it, or by Jesus. And don't think because you have big numbers of people believing like you, that you must be right, "for broad is the way that leads to destruction, and MANY there be that go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13).

Peace
Reply

جوري
06-07-2007, 03:46 PM
Again, I'll take my chances... and I have already taken enough philosophy courses in my undergrad to draw the similarities myself between Christianity and Greek myth-- I don't need a Greek philosopher to draw the conclusion for me.... Let me add further, that if I wanted to read the bible, which by the way I do. I do it in Arabic... is it any wonder those who are Christian in the Arab world don't follow your brand of Christianity?.. what they call 50% new and improved.
I hate to disappoint you.. maybe not a disappointment at all? but what you quote or don't quote is completely inconsequential to me. If you can't sell it to Jews, you can't sell it to Muslims! Simply it is like going backwards... Now that Jesus is paying for your sins, do you go back to following Moses or Noah?
peace!
Reply

Phil12123
06-07-2007, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
...and you will be judged, and nobody will be able help you . as we know from hadiths, even Mary will forget about Jesus on the day of judgment due to the panic that will be among people. Jesus is going to be preoccupied about himself, so I don't know how are u expecting for him to pay for your sins. wake up. lolll
Is that how you see the judgment, "panic...among people"? I suppose at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15), that might be the case, where the dead, who do not have their names written in the Book of Life, will be judged for every single sin they have ever committed, in word, thought, or deed, and then cast into the Lake of Fire.

By contrast, the Christian's judgment will be much different. In this present life, we are told we can "come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Heb. 4:16). Christians can approach the Lord as their Heavenly Father, just as a small child runs to its daddy. There is a boldness, because their sins have been forgiven, paid for, and they know He loves them, that love having been shown to the max at Calvary.

Jesus preoccupied? No, He will be on the throne doing the judging (John 5:22-23). He already paid for sins at Calvary, and will have completed His intercessory role on our behalf at the Father's right hand during this life (1 John 2:1-2; Heb. 7:25). At the judgment of believers, including Mary, He will be on the throne judging believers' works and giving rewards for them (1 Cor. 3:11-15; Rom. 14:10).

Peace
Reply

Phil12123
06-07-2007, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
If you can't sell it to Jews, you can't sell it to Muslims! Simply it is like going backwards... Now that Jesus is paying for your sins, do you go back to following Moses or Noah?
peace!
No, I go onward, serving Jesus. Why would I go back and follow Moses or Noah just because my sins are paid for? I'm not following your logic, if there is any.

When the early Christians preached the Gospel, not all the Jews "bought" it. Not all the Gentiles "bought" it either. That was common then and it is common now. Some believe, some don't. So what? Acts 28: 24 says, "And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not."

You believe not. That's your choice.

Peace
Reply

جوري
06-07-2007, 04:28 PM
Yes you go on serving Jesus and I go on serving he who created Jesus... it is as simple as that... The final Message and the religion with G-D is Islam!
like wise whether you believe or not it is your choice..
Hope we are done here?

peace!
Reply

Eric H
06-07-2007, 04:48 PM
Greetings and peace be with you all,

Just maybe.

Jesus died for for all mankind because he loved us as he loved himself?

In the spirit of searching

Eric
Reply

vpb
06-07-2007, 07:09 PM
Wrong. wrong. wrong. I am not lying to myself because I did not originate this "good news" (Gospel) but God Himself did. I know to your unregenerate mind, it is foolishness. I expect nothing else. When you receive and believe, if you ever do, you will understand and you will rejoice with me and the millions who have done likewise down through the ages since He demonstrated that great love at Calvary. For you to spurn that love and reject His offer of eternal life as a free gift, is to sentence yourself to an eternity of indescribable loss. You are a lost sinner now, as I was many years ago, but your lostness now is nothing compared to your future state, if you remain in unbelief.
No, I go onward, serving Jesus. Why would I go back and follow Moses or Noah just because my sins are paid for? I'm not following your logic, if there is any.

When the early Christians preached the Gospel, not all the Jews "bought" it. Not all the Gentiles "bought" it either. That was common then and it is common now. Some believe, some don't. So what? Acts 28: 24 says, "And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not."

You believe not. That's your choice.
Is that how you see the judgment, "panic...among people"? I suppose at the Great White Throne Judgment (Rev. 20:11-15), that might be the case, where the dead, who do not have their names written in the Book of Life, will be judged for every single sin they have ever committed, in word, thought, or deed, and then cast into the Lake of Fire.

By contrast, the Christian's judgment will be much different. In this present life, we are told we can "come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need" (Heb. 4:16). Christians can approach the Lord as their Heavenly Father, just as a small child runs to its daddy. There is a boldness, because their sins have been forgiven, paid for, and they know He loves them, that love having been shown to the max at Calvary.

Jesus preoccupied? No, He will be on the throne doing the judging (John 5:22-23). He already paid for sins at Calvary, and will have completed His intercessory role on our behalf at the Father's right hand during this life (1 John 2:1-2; Heb. 7:25). At the judgment of believers, including Mary, He will be on the throne judging believers' works and giving rewards for them (1 Cor. 3:11-15; Rom. 14:10).
Go then with you way :)


Surah Maryam:
88. They say: "((Allah)) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
89. Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
90. At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
91. That they should invoke a son for ((Allah)) Most Gracious.
92. For it is not consonant with the majesty of ((Allah)) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
93. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to ((Allah)) Most Gracious as a servant.
94. He does take an account of them (all), and hath numbered them (all) exactly.
95. And everyone of them will come to Him singly on the Day of Judgment.




Surah An-Nisa:

171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).
173. But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards,- and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them.





Surah As-Saaffat:

149. Now ask them their opinion: Is it that thy Lord has (only) daughters, and they have sons?-
150. Or that We created the angels female, and they are witnesses (thereto)?
151. Is it not that they say, from their own invention,
152. "(Allah) has begotten children"? but they are liars!
153. Did He (then) choose daughters rather than sons?
154. What is the matter with you? How judge ye?
155. Will ye not then receive admonition?
156. Or have ye an authority manifest?
157. Then bring ye your Book (of authority) if ye be truthful!
158. And they have invented a blood-relationship between Him and the Jinns: but the Jinns know (quite well) that they have indeed to appear (before his Judgment- Seat)!
159. Glory to Allah. (He is free) from the things they ascribe (to Him)!
160. Not (so do) the Servants of Allah, sincere and devoted.


Surah Al-Isra:
111. Say: "Praise be to Allah, who begets no son, and has no partner in (His) dominion: Nor (needs) He any to protect Him from humiliation: yea, magnify Him for His greatness and glory!"
Reply

Redeemed
06-07-2007, 11:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
about the salvation , it has already been discussed, so I'm going back to explain again. check the previous posts.
and as for the second part of your post,I think you are referring to the second part of Shahada,
La ilahe il-allah, Muhammed rasoolallah
the second part of shahada, is to declare the Muhammed is the messenger of Allah, what has this got to do with ascribing partnership to God???? it's just a statement, which is required so you believe that Muhammed saws is the messenger, bc if you don't say this part, then some people might just believe in Allah, but not in his messenger, and this goes against the teachings of Islam. I don't know on what basis just because you say Muhammed is Allah's messenger, you are ascribing partnership to God? the statement itself is saying that he is a messenger, so he cannot be a partner with God. And if you reject Muhammed as a propht, then you have to reject Qur'an, and if you reject Qur'an you have to reject Allah (astagfirullah), so part of shahada is that you must also declare that you must believe that Muhammed is his last messenger.but to clarify things,

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47: Narrated Abu Huraira:
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Apostle replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.
1. When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
2. When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.
The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.

you see, on of the things of what is faith is to believe in his Apostles, so since other people believe in other Prophets, it is necessary to also believe in Muhammed as a messenger of Allah.


I hope you understood my point.
I said you are ascribing to Allah a partner for a few reasons. For instance, your honor for the prophet is unprecedented through out Biblical history. God never had the children of God say believe in Jehovah and His messenger Moses or God and his messenger Abraham or even God and John the Baptist who was the greatest of all spiritual men that ever walked on the face of this earth next to Jesus, because he was filled with God's spirit at birth. You have made Muhammad partner with Allah in your confession of faith (Shahada). This is not what we do. We do not confess any prophets with God for our salvation or to be a Christian, but you most certainly do. If we confessed a prophet along with God as a part of our confession of faith, a mere man that sins like all the rest of us, we would be guilty of idolatry. You have elevated Muhammad to a place that no other prophet has ever been. There have been many great prophets recorded in the Bible, and not one of them have been ascribe with God through a confession of prayer to show submission to the Lord. People just simply chose to obey or not the word of the Lord through them that is all, and the prophet’s job was over. That is it - period. God never shared His glory with a prophet; moreover, he never will. But, that is not so in Islam. I share what God showed me through prayer not from any book. Remember, it is written, “With what measure you judge, it shall be measured unto you.” We love and serve the Lord God creator of heaven and earth and we associate no prophet with Him; He is our God and The Prince of Peace. He can be and wants to be yours as well; for God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of truth.
You are loved
:)
Reply

Woodrow
06-07-2007, 11:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I said you are ascribing to Allah a partner for a few reasons. For instance, your honor for the prophet is unprecedented through out Biblical history. God never had the children of God say believe in Jehovah and His messenger Moses or God and his messenger Abraham or even God and John the Baptist who was the greatest of all spiritual men that ever walked on the face of this earth next to Jesus, because he was filled with God's spirit at birth. You have made Muhammad partner with Allah in your confession of faith (Shahada). This is not what we do. We do not confess any prophets with God for our salvation or to be a Christian, but you most certainly do. If we confessed a prophet along with God as a part of our confession of faith, a mere man that sins like all the rest of us, we would be guilty of idolatry. You have elevated Muhammad to a place that no other prophet has ever been. There have been many great prophets recorded in the Bible, and not one of them have been ascribe with God through a confession of prayer to show submission to the Lord. People just simply chose to obey or not the word of the Lord through them that is all, and the prophet’s job was over. That is it - period. God never shared His glory with a prophet; moreover, he never will. But, that is not so in Islam. I share what God showed me through prayer not from any book. Remember, it is written, “With what measure you judge, it shall be measured unto you.” We love and serve the Lord God creator of heaven and earth and we associate no prophet with Him; He is our God and The Prince of Peace. He can be and wants to be yours as well; for God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knowledge of truth.
You are loved
:)

You are also loved.

As Shakespeare wrote "Methinks he doth protest too much." From the sounds of things you are no longer protesting Islam, you are seeking justifications to keep your own beliefs. Listen to your doubts, they will serve you well and help lead you to the truth. It is God(swt) who is putting your doubts about Christianity into your mind and you should heed them.
Reply

Redeemed
06-07-2007, 11:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
You are also loved.

As Shakespeare wrote "Methinks he doth protest too much." From the sounds of things you are no longer protesting Islam, you are seeking justifications to keep your own beliefs. Listen to your doubts, they will serve you well and help lead you to the truth. It is God(swt) who is putting your doubts about Christianity into your mind and you should heed them.
You are bending a very,very powerful flexible rod against its design to face back at me what I shared. There is so much tension on that rod that you will tire of holding it against its design just before it springs back to hurt, but remember, it is written, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful"
Peace and love to you:thumbs_up
Reply

جوري
06-07-2007, 11:58 PM
There is no rod.. there is only Al3rwata alwathqa, la infisam laha

قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ فَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىَ لاَ انفِصَامَ لَهَا وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ {



[Pickthal 2:256] There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower

Seems you are the one holding rods and stick, so brittle, they fall apart with one word...

peace!
Reply

Woodrow
06-08-2007, 12:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
You are bending a very,very powerful flexible rod against its design to face back at me what I shared. There is so much tension on that rod that you will tire of holding it against its design just before it springs back to hurt, but remember, it is written, "Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful"
Peace and love to you:thumbs_up
There is no rod, there is no tension. You sound very much like I did at one time. I put up a very strong fight against Islam until Allah(swt) woke me up.

All of my protesting and denial was just me being afraid to let loose of my "old comfort zone" and take a plunge of pure faith. Well, to be honest it was not so much of a plunge as it was a feeling of being embraced with pure love.
Reply

MustafaMc
06-08-2007, 12:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I understand, but you still have to mention Muhammad in the Shahada as his messenger or you can't be a Muslim. I know you don't worship him, but his name must be mentioned as your declaration of submission. If you don't mention the name of the prophet, your profession to salvation is void; therefore, you do what you accuse us of for just a messenger who you ascribe to Allah as part of your Shahada that is necessary for your religion. We are the ones who confess to only one God and no prophet or messenger. This is what God showed me. The devil is the accuser of the saints. He is the big liar not us.
The point is that a Muslim is one who submits his will to that of Allah. We know what the Will of Allah is for our worship and our lives through Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). If we did not have that as a reference point we would be left to our own speculation as to how to worship Allah. For example, where do Christians find the directives for their worship services?

So, yes, to be a Muslim today one must testify that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of Allah. In no sense of the concept is this ascribing partners with Allah as you claim.
Reply

MustafaMc
06-08-2007, 12:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
Thus says the Lord: Do not listen to what the prophets say, they buoy you up with false hopes; the vision they report springs from their own imagination, it is not from the mouth of the Lord. They say to those who spurn the word of the Lord, Prosperity shall be yours;...No disaster shall befall you… The Lord’s anger is not to be turned aside, until he has accomplished and fulfilled his deep designs. In days to come you will fully understand. I did not send these prophets, yet they went in haste; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied. If they have stood in my council, let them proclaim my words to my people and turn them from their evil course and their evil doings. Am I a God only near at hand, not far away? Can a man hide in any secret place and I not see him? Do I not fill heaven and earth? This is the very word of the Lord.
What is your reference? If you did not actually write this, then this post is plagarism. If you did write it, how did you get so close to Allah that he talks to you?
Reply

MustafaMc
06-08-2007, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
In christianity we should also fear God.
(sarcasm) If Chrstians are "saved" by the blood of Jesus, what's there to fear? Punishment of sin? Hell? Allah's Wrath?
Reply

MustafaMc
06-08-2007, 01:35 AM
Good answer from the Christian persepective.

format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Well, of course, all the promises of Paradise in the Quran are only to “believers” again and again, but it’s not simply “believers” who will reap the benefit of those promises. It is only the believers whose good works outweigh their evil works. Even your prayers are judged, so that if your “obligatory” prayers fall short, they better be made up for with your “voluntary” prayers, or you’re in big trouble. So, don’t tell me you don’t rely on your good works to earn you salvation. That is EXACTLY what you do, whether you want to admit it or not. Your last sentence confirms it---Allah judges your faith and deeds to determine if they were sincere or hypocritical. Again, your deeds, your works, YOU.
I would say there is some truth in what you wrote, but Allah's judgement of good and evil is so superior to our present understanding that none of us can stand up and say "I know that I am going to Heaven because I said all of my obligatory and superogatory prayers perfectly, I fasted during every Ramaddan....." A very important point is our intentions. A person may have even died during jihad and thought that he was a martyr (guaranteed Paradise), but he may have been fighting so that he would gain praise from his family and friends and not for the sake of Allah.

Contrast that with the believer in Christ. It is Christ’s Work of redemption that purchases my salvation. No works or deeds of mine removes my sins; only HIS shed blood is able to wash away my sins. All my sins were judged at the cross. My future judgment is one of determining the quality of my works for purposes of rewards, not punishment.
1 Cor. 3:
11. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
13. each one's work will become manifest; for the [Judgment] Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
14. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
15. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

The Christian whose works do not endure, i.e., are of no eternal value (has nothing but wood, hay, and straw for works), will suffer loss---of rewards---but he himself will be saved---because he had the right foundation (Jesus Christ). He need never rely on his works to save him. Christ has already saved him by His Work at the cross.
But is this security of salvation real or imagined?

No, because it is based on the Word of God and confirmed in our hearts by the Holy Spirit.
Based on the Bible which you BELIEVE to be the Word of God.


That is exactly right. And if your house is not built on the solid rock of Jesus Christ---the ONLY firm foundation---you will suffer eternal loss. But if you wait till the Judgment Day to make Him your firm foundation, it will be too late. That is exactly what Satan is hoping you do---wait and see…too late.

Peace
The foundation that I stand on is "There is no god, but the One God and Muhammad is His Messenger". On Judgement Day, Allah will judge between us.
Reply

MustafaMc
06-08-2007, 01:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
No one is saying you should switch from Islam to Greek Mythology. To my knowledge, there are no Greek mythologists on this board suggesting that.

What I suggest is that you will have to pay for every single sin you ever committed, in word, thought, or deed, if you don't accept Jesus' payment for you. Every sin must be paid for, by someone---either the person who committed it, or by Jesus. And don't think because you have big numbers of people believing like you, that you must be right, "for broad is the way that leads to destruction, and MANY there be that go in thereat" (Matt. 7:13).

Peace
Have you ever heard of the Mercy of Allah. Well, it's a wonderful thing......
Reply

Woodrow
06-08-2007, 01:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Have you ever heard of the Mercy of Allah. Well, it's a wonderful thing......
Very true, nothing can surpass his mercy and nothing needs to. Even Christians are aware of his mercy you will often hear Christians say: "For he so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.........."

A Christian can not deny he is aware of the infinite mercy of Allah(swt). I can not understand how they can not believe that he is capable of forgiving each of us with just a thought.
Reply

Redeemed
06-08-2007, 01:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
What is your reference? If you did not actually write this, then this post is plagarism. If you did write it, how did you get so close to Allah that he talks to you?
\
It is not plagarism as you might purport. If you notice it says Thus says the Lord. I am certainly am not the Lord. Look at Jer. 23
The way I got close to the Lord was through Jesus. That is why there is a fire and power behind the verses I write. The letter of the law is dead; it is the spirit that brings it alive! I have that spirit. That is why I am bold in the Lord. And you're right the fear of the Lord is good bc it endures for3ever and it is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom.
Reply

Redeemed
06-08-2007, 02:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Have you ever heard of the Mercy of Allah. Well, it's a wonderful thing......
Have you ever heard of the wrath and justice of God? It is a fearfull thing to fall into the hands of the living God with no covering for your sin. You are on your own bc U choose so. The soul that is not covered by the blood of the Lamb of God is out of reach from GOD'S mercy because it is God's standard.
Reply

Phil12123
06-08-2007, 02:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
(sarcasm) If Chrstians are "saved" by the blood of Jesus, what's there to fear? Punishment of sin? Hell? Allah's Wrath?
Not hell and not wrath. That is what Christians are saved from. But the "fear of the Lord" for the Christian is more of a reverence and holy respect, as a child has respect for his parents. Why? Because if he doesn't and if he disobeys, he can expect a corrective spanking. In scripture, the "spanking" is called "chastening" or "chastisement" as seen from the following passage:

Hebrews 12:
5. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6. For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons.
9. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10. For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

That is a huge difference that I see between Christianity and Islam---the relationship between the believers and their God. For the Christian, the relationship is a spiritual adoption into the family of God, whereby the new believer becomes a newborn child of God, heir of all things, joint-heir with Jesus Christ. He has a new (spiritual) daddy---God Himself, as Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Our Father, Who is in heaven...." Before that they are just children of Adam, or worse, children of the devil, as Jesus called the religious leaders who rejected Him (John 8:44). As children of God, believers can know and approach their heavenly Father for all their needs just as our own small children can know and approach us.

By contrast, Muslim believers are not permitted to consider Allah as their heavenly Father in any sense. He is more their Judge, someone to indeed fear because they have no assurance of his mercy or of their eternal destiny. They may pin their hopes on the Quranic verses that say over and over that Allah is merciful and forgiving, but they still don't know if that is how it will turn out in their own individual cases.

And then there is the element of LOVE. The Bible says, "God is love" (1 John 4:8). But one Quran that I have has an index that goes from page 425 to page 452---27 pages---without a single listing for "love." I had to go online to do a search for "love" in the Quran. And when I did, I did find over 80 verses that include the word "love." But what I also found is that no where does the Quran say that God loves sinners and is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (like 2 Pet. 3:9). In fact, the picture I got was that Allah loves doers of good deeds but doesn't love doers of bad deeds. Now, that seems normal and good, because God hates sin. But from a biblical viewpoint, He loves the sinner but hates the sin. And then He DID something to provide for the sinner's forgiveness of sin by sending Jesus to die for it. Not so with the Quran.

So those are two things that I find very unattractive in Islam. No sense of a heavenly Father and no sense that as such He loves me as His child. Maybe you can do without either, but not me. I'm thankful I don't have to.

Peace
Reply

Redeemed
06-08-2007, 02:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
There is no rod, there is no tension. You sound very much like I did at one time. I put up a very strong fight against Islam until Allah(swt) woke me up.

All of my protesting and denial was just me being afraid to let loose of my "old comfort zone" and take a plunge of pure faith. Well, to be honest it was not so much of a plunge as it was a feeling of being embraced with pure love.
A man cannot have more love than to lay down his life for a friend. That is what Jesus did for us. There is no comfort zone being a Christian. It is a call to die to your own fleshly desires and live holy and righteously before God. I cannot do this. With man it is impossible, but with GOD all things are possible.
peace
Reply

Redeemed
06-08-2007, 02:21 AM
The most uncomfortable place for a Christian is a comfortable place.
Reply

Redeemed
06-08-2007, 03:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
A comfort zone is not necessarily physically comfortable, it is what a person feels they understand.
With this I say good night. I have eastern time. My experience and knowldge of the Scriptures tells me. That if there is a lack of comfort due to a lack of peace in a decision you or anyone makes concerning something special, it is good to do nothing than to operate out of what you don't have the faith for. You see, it is the devil that pushes you into a direction or decisions, but the Lord leads his sheep gently. I am one of his sheep and I am very comfortable and safe, and that is a very good thing when you have eternity in mind.
peace
Reply

vpb
06-08-2007, 05:41 AM
I said you are ascribing to Allah a partner for a few reasons. For instance, your honor for the prophet is unprecedented through out Biblical history. God never had the children of God say believe in Jehovah and His messenger Moses or God and his messenger Abraham or even God and John the Baptist who was the greatest of all spiritual men that ever walked on the face of this earth next to Jesus, because he was filled with God's spirit at birth. You have made Muhammad partner with Allah in your confession of faith (Shahada). This is not what we do. We do not confess any prophets with God for our salvation or to be a Christian, but you most certainly do. If we confessed a prophet along with God as a part of our confession of faith, a mere man that sins like all the rest of us, we would be guilty of idolatry. You have elevated Muhammad to a place that no other prophet has ever been. There have been many great prophets recorded in the Bible, and not one of them have been ascribe with God through a confession of prayer to show submission to the Lord. People just simply chose to obey or not the word of the Lord through them that is all, and the prophet’s job was over. That is it - period. God never shared His glory with a prophet; moreover, he never will. But, that is not so in Islam. I share what God showed me through prayer not from any book.
hahaha, i can't believe what u write sometimes. We include Muhammed in our shahada, bc we have to testify that Muhammed is Allah's messenger,
as I showed the hadith, but it seems that you didn't read it.

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 47: Narrated Abu Huraira:
One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Apostle replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, .............

so one of the conditions of faith is to believe in all Allah's apostles, now there are people who believe all the apostles, but don't believe Muhammed, so you have to add Muhammed on the shahada, to testify in particular that you believe that Muhammed is Allah's last messenger, bc if you don't believe that Muhammed is a messenger, than you have to reject Qur'an, and if you reject also the Qur'an than what's left?? bc in order to be saved, you have to follow the last messenger, which is Muhammed, who came with the last book which is Qur'an. You cannot follow any other prophets or books anymore, cuz previous prophets and books were sent to specific nations, and earlier times. So Muhammed is a model for us from the time he started reciving his revelation till the day of Judgmenet, and the Qur'an, and his Sunnah. so you have to specific on shahada, to declare also that you believe that Muhammed is the Allah's messenger, do you get it? bc it seems everyone does but u? what's all this got this to do with worship? how can we worship Muhammed , or join partnership to Allah, when the core of Islam is about "Allah is one, without partners or rivals", can you please explain me, how can we join partnership if the core of Islam is that?? but as Wodroow said, you are trying to find justification for your own beliefs . it is you who ascribe partnership to Allah, bc you are worshipping Allah's apostle, and making him God, it is you who are ascribing children to Allah, it is you who are comitting kufr, it is you who are comitting shirk, not us. If we would joing partnership with Allah, we would not be saved. and pleae read the hadiths and verse from Qur'an when I post, bc if you don't read them, then how are you supposed to understand what i'm trying to say and prove.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:
Then Allah's Apostle said, 'Do not praise me excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.'


may Allah swt save us from comitting kufr/shirk with our mouths and hearts. Ameen

Reply

evangel
06-09-2007, 01:25 PM
Simply put, the Trinity is the three ways that the one true God manifests Himself.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 01:32 PM
Simply put, the Trinity is the three ways that the one true God manifests Himself.
4:171
O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
Reply

evangel
06-09-2007, 01:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
far be It from His glory that He should have a son
God did not have (conceive) a son, He is the Son.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-09-2007, 01:37 PM
But that's disrespectful isn't it? to claim that god died and went into a grave? :? isn't that a human attribute?

If one were to claim that a prophet died, then that is logical since Prophet Yahya/John the Baptist got killed. But to claim that it's god is clear blasphemy.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 01:38 PM
God did not have (conceive) a son, He is the Son.
ok , so if you say God = 'He is the Son', then the father of the son should alsso be God, so now we are having 2 Gods?? which is contradicting the
Simply put, the Trinity is the three ways that the one true God manifests Himself.
;D;D;D

But that's disrespectful isn't it? to claim that god died and went into a grave?

isn't that a human attribute?
there are a lot of human attributes they put to God , it's not just one.
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evangel
06-09-2007, 01:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
But that's disrespectful isn't it? to claim that god died and went into a grave? :? isn't that a human attribute?

If one were to claim that a prophet died, then that is logical since Prophet Yahya/John the Baptist got killed. But to claim that it's god is clear blasphemy.
Jesus did many things but His purpose for coming was to die on the cross, to be the perfect sacrifice, without blemish, and purchase our place in heaven. So it isn't blasphemy, it is recognizing God's plan.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 01:58 PM
Jesus did many things but His purpose for coming was to die on the cross, to be the perfect sacrifice, without blemish, and purchase our place in heaven. So it isn't blasphemy, it is recognizing God's plan.
4:157
And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus) son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Jesus) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

4:158
Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

4:159
And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Jesus) shall be a witness against them.
Reply

evangel
06-09-2007, 02:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
ok , so if you say God = 'He is the Son', then the father of the son should alsso be God, so now we are having 2 Gods
I wrote in my original post ONE true God. You have managed to misrepresent and misquote what I have written (2 posts, a total of 26 words).
Are you a journalist?

Here's a list:
1. Read
2. Form an opinion
3. Respond

You forgot #1
Reply

- Qatada -
06-09-2007, 02:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
Jesus did many things but His purpose for coming was to die on the cross, to be the perfect sacrifice, without blemish, and purchase our place in heaven. So it isn't blasphemy, it is recognizing God's plan.


"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!"

(Qur'an 5:75)

"When Jesus came with Clear Signs, he said: 'Now I have come to you with Wisdom, and in order to make clear to you some of the (points) on which you dispute. Therefore, fear God and obey me. God, He is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him -- this is a Straight Way.' But sects from among themselves fell into disagreement. So woe to the wrongdoers, from the penalty of a Grievous Day!" (43:63-65)



"He [Jesus] said: 'I am indeed a servant of God. He has given me revelation and made me a prophet; He has made me blessed wheresoever I be; and He has enjoined on me prayer and charity as long as I live. He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)!'

Such was Jesus the son of Mary. It is a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) God that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is"

(19:30-35).



And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment.

To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is within them. And He is over all things competent.


[Qur'an 5: 116-20]
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 02:09 PM
You said:
Simply put, the Trinity is the three ways that the one true God manifests Himself.
The Verse of Quran:

4:171
O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
You said:
God did not have (conceive) a son, He is the Son.


I said:
ok , so if you say God = 'He is the Son', then the father of the son should alsso be God, so now we are having 2 Gods??



You said:

I wrote in my original post ONE true God. You have managed to misrepresent and misquote what I have written (2 posts, a total of 26 words).
Are you a journalist?

Here's a list:
1. Read
2. Form an opinion
3. Respond

You forgot #1
what did I miss here? is this the response bc you contradicted youself? explain it to me please. :)
Reply

evangel
06-09-2007, 02:11 PM
Where did I write, "now we are having 2 Gods."
Reply

- Qatada -
06-09-2007, 02:13 PM
nah c'mon guys, i've had discussions with evangel in the past and we never argued or anything like that. :) So let's do it without no 'fighting' etc.


Thanks.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 02:16 PM
Where did I write, "now we are having 2 Gods."
you didn't explicitely say it, but you said it through the meaning of your words. check up the posts again
Reply

- Qatada -
06-09-2007, 02:17 PM
evangel, you know there's no place in the bible where Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) tells people to worship him right? Rather he calls to the worship of the One above the heavens, true? :)

If you agree with that, and you know that Jesus son of Mary, conveyed the message. Then you should also realise that we should worship our Creator and Sustainer alone (whether it's prayer, any form of intercession etc.) - it should be focused to God Alone, since it's Him who Jesus called to, and without a doubt those who love Jesus follow his true teachings instead of doubt, and conjecture.



We love Jesus, the Messiah also. And we believe he will return near the final hour to fight the anti-christ, God/Allaah has given him honor in this world and the one to come. And without a doubt, those who are closest to Jesus are those who follow him with truth and sincerety. :)




Peace.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 02:18 PM
nah c'mon guys, i've had discussions with evangel in the past and we never argued or anything like that.

So let's do it without no 'fighting' etc.


Thanks.
u picky ;D;D :p
Reply

- Qatada -
06-09-2007, 02:20 PM
:salamext:


lolll shh bro.. don't mess about on the forums insha Allaah :)
Reply

Trumble
06-09-2007, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
Simply put, the Trinity is the three ways that the one true God manifests Himself.
Simply put, and simple for this non-Christian at least to understand. You are however, as you have probably gathered, totally wasting your time. Some posters profess to not understanding that idea simply because, I think, as they do not accept it as true they are unwilling to make the slightest effort to try. Hence the simplistic '1+1+1=3, QED' 'argument', which I find hugely ironic as that makes far more anthropomorphic assumptions about the nature of God than anything else that has been discussed here.

There is a huge difference between understanding an idea and accepting it as true. One does not necessarily involve the other.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 02:31 PM
lolll shh bro.. don't mess about on the forums insha Allaah



Simply put, and simple for this non-Christian at least to understand. You are however, as you have probably gathered, totally wasting your time. Some posters profess to not understanding that idea simply because, I think, as they do not accept it as true they are unwilling to make the slightest effort to try. Hence the simplistic '1+1+1=3, QED' 'argument', which I find hugely ironic as that makes far more anthropomorphic assumptions about the nature of God than anything else that has been discussed here.

There is a huge difference between understanding an idea and accepting it as true. One does not necessarily involve the other.
it's not that we don't want to understand, but this concept of Trinity is unexplainable, even Christians don't understand it, but they pretend to understand it. Nobody till now has been able to come up and clearly explain this concept. but anywasy we are not going again into this, cuz we have already discussed it.
Reply

evangel
06-09-2007, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
you didn't explicitely say it, but you said it through the meaning of your words. check up the posts again
The term I used was manifests. How many ways do you manifest yourself during the average day? Maybe all or a few of these, husband, brother, father, employee, employer, citizen, etc... These manifestations of the different characteristics of who you are doesn't mean there are multiple vpb's.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 02:32 PM
what happened?, Fi, could you delete the extra copies of the post.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 02:33 PM
The term I used was manifests. How many ways do you manifest yourself during the average day? Maybe all or a few of these, husband, brother, father, employee, employer, citizen, etc... These manifestations of the different characteristics of who you are doesn't mean there are multiple vpb's.
we have already spent hundreds of MB of bandwith on discussing such thing, so we might want to stop here, or else we can discuss something else :)
Reply

- Qatada -
06-09-2007, 02:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by evangel
The term I used was manifests. How many ways do you manifest yourself during the average day? Maybe all or a few of these, husband, brother, father, employee, employer, citizen, etc... These manifestations of the different characteristics of who you are doesn't mean there are multiple vpb's.

The fault in that argument is that these three manifestations are within the same person no matter where he goes, however - the issue of 'god' being in three parts would mean that Jesus couldn't be on the earth while he is calling to the worship of the One above the heavens.

I.e. the claim of some christians who say that Jesus said; "why has thou forsaken me", why would he be saying that if he's talking to himself? If he's talking to God in that scenario, then that means that God is somewhere else, which means that they are two gods in different places? I.e. one being 'killed', while another is patient with this torture that the other is recieving?


Again, the idea of Jesus son of Mary being a prophet in that scenario would make much more sense. However, we know that Jesus son of Mary is so honorable in the sight of God that he wasn't even killed, rather he was raised upto God without being killed, and he will return once again near the final hour. That shows much more honor and love of God/Allaah for Jesus son of Mary, the honorable Messiah (peace be upon him.)
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 02:42 PM
The fault in that argument is that these three manifestations are within the same person no matter where he goes, however - the issue of 'god' being in three parts would mean that Jesus couldn't be on the earth while he is calling to the worship of the One above the heavens.

I.e. the claim of some christians who say that Jesus said; "why has thou forsaken me", why would he be saying that if he's talking to himself? If he's talking to God in that scenario, then that means that God is somewhere else, which means that they are two gods in different places? I.e. one being 'killed', while another is patient with this torture that the other is recieving?


Again, the idea of Jesus son of Mary being a prophet in that scenario would make much more sense. However, we know that Jesus son of Mary is so honorable in the sight of God that he wasn't even killed, rather he was raised upto God without being killed, and he will return once again near the final hour. That shows much more honor and love of God/Allaah for Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him.)
you just spent 24234234 words, :p trying to explain, but we have talked about this before, and they will not get it unless want to,

2:171
And the parable of those who disbelieve is as the parable of one who calls out to that which hears no more than a call and a cry; deaf, dumb (and) blind, so they do not understand.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-09-2007, 02:43 PM
Only Allaah knows, :)




Allaah says:

“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”

Narrated by Muslim (2577).
Reply

Woodrow
06-09-2007, 03:37 PM
I actually have no difficulty in the concept that Allah(swt) could manifest Himself as 3 separate identities if He chose to do so. The question is not if He can do it the Question is "Did He do it?"

I can find no indication that he did so. In fact even Christians have written their own documentation that they do not consider the 3 to be the same person.

We have Jesus(as) speaking to God(swt) and even asking God(swt) for favors.

Luke 6:12 One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.
Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
Interesting side note here::[a] And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.Footnotes: 1. Luke 23:34 Some early manuscripts do not have this sentence. Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...4;&version=31;

This one varies according to which Bible you use:

Luke 23:46 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

46Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

Luke 23:46 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
Luke 23:46 (Young's Literal Translation)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible]

46and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, `Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit.
Then We have Jesus(as) being blessed by The Holy Spirit.

Luke 3:22 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

22and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Luke 3:22 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain
[A Public Domain Bible] [KJV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

22And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
To me that all reads like the Trinity is three separate Unequal beings and that Jesus(as) is the least powerful of them as he Needs to ask God(as) for favors and He prays to God in worship. He also received a Blessing from the Holy Spirit.

Now if that sounds like a description of 3 separate entities being one person. I am hopelessly confused.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 05:38 PM
Wodroow, it doesn't seem to me these verses to refer to One God , or do they?
Reply

Phil12123
06-09-2007, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
...even Christians have written their own documentation that they do not consider the 3 to be the same person.

We have Jesus(as) speaking to God(swt) and even asking God(swt) for favors.

To me that all reads like the Trinity is three separate Unequal beings and that Jesus(as) is the least powerful of them as he Needs to ask God(as) for favors and He prays to God in worship. He also received a Blessing from the Holy Spirit.

Now if that sounds like a description of 3 separate entities being one person. I am hopelessly confused.
I would agree that the 3 separate entities, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are 3 separate personages Who together are the ONE GOD. The problem we humans have is perhaps semantics---the words we use to describe GOD. For Christians, the term and teaching of "Trinity" and 3 "Persons" or "Personages" is merely an attempt to verbalize and summarize what God Himself has said about Himself in His Word, both Old and New testaments. "Let US make man in OUR image..." There are many places in the Old Testament indicating GOD is more than an absolute ONE, but rather a composite ONE. So when Jesus said, "My Father and I are ONE," it should come as no shock to someone who has read all of the O.T. and much of the N.T., with the concept becoming more clear and pronounced in the N.T.

The Three are co-equal in all their essence, substance, and nature. Those 3 words simply describe what something consists of. God consists of DEITY. Man consists of humanity. Animals consist of animal matter/life. Plants consist of plant matter/life. Rocks consist of inanimate minerals or whatever. Regarding GOD and Jesus and their relationship, we must consider this passage:

Philippians 2:
3. Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Now, the context of the passage has to do with pride vs. humility. Paul writes to the Philippians and urges them to do nothing out of conceit but have lowliness of mind (humility), esteeming others better than yourself. He then uses Jesus Christ as the ultimate example of humility. Though He was in the form of God, He did not think it was robbing God to be equal with God or, some versions, He did not think His equality with God was something to be grasped or held onto no matter what, but instead made Himself of no reputation, taking on the form of man and humbling Himself even to a death on the cross. That's the lowest of the low. But afterward He was exalted with a Name above every name and a position that was back to His original where every knee would bow and declare Him to be LORD to the glory of God.

So, we see the incarnation where He Who was in the form of God and equal with God took on the form of a man/servant/slave. Now, Paul would reason, if HE can do THAT, you Philippians should follow His example and be humble too. Now, His example was probably not given to explain God as much as to exhort humility. But we learn from it, if we can receive it. Paul was given so many revelations that he was also given that thorn in the flesh to keep HIM humble. Let's hope we can be humble enough to receive the truth given and not exalt our minds to reject it because we don't understand it.

In any event, when "the Word became flesh" or when He Who was in the form of God and equal with God took on the form of a servant, the question becomes, Did He cease to be God? His "form" or outward expression did change and when that became that of a servant, all the aspects of servanthood came with it---hunger, thirst, tiredness, etc. So in that respect it is sometimes said He was 100% man. But can He Who was equal with God cease to be that? No, and so in that respect it is sometimes said He was still 100% God. Personally, I don't understand that any more than you do. 100% + !00% seems to = 200%, which doesn't make sense. But He certainly humbled Himself to limit Himself to whatever God wanted, subjecting Himself 100% to the will of His Father, doing and saying ONLY what His Father lead Him to do and say, subjecting His own will 100% to the will of His Father. But the fact that there were separate wills whereby He could have called it all off and not gone to the cross, shows a distinction of entities, even if both had the same essence, substance, and nature.
Reply

Woodrow
06-09-2007, 05:54 PM
Phil like always I do respect your belief and welcome your honest opinions.

I am quite confused by Philippians 2.

Philippians 2:
3. Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I see that as a statement that Jesus(as) was not God(swt) but, that God(swt) elevated him to a status above all other men. Just my opinion, astragfirullah
Reply

Woodrow
06-09-2007, 05:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
Wodroow, it doesn't seem to me these verses to refer to One God , or do they?
That is how I see them also. To me they are identifying 3 separate people and that Jesus(as) is the least of them. I could be confused, but that is what I see.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 05:59 PM
That is how I see them also. To me they are identifying 3 separate people and that Jesus(as) is the least of them. I could be confused, but that is what I see.
Every religious book I've come across always referred Judaism and Islam as the two monotheistic religions, but never included Christianity.
the idea of One God in Christinity must be a new concept.
Reply

Phil12123
06-09-2007, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Again, the idea of Jesus son of Mary being a prophet in that scenario would make much more sense. However, we know that Jesus son of Mary is so honorable in the sight of God that he wasn't even killed, rather he was raised up to God without being killed, and he will return once again near the final hour. That shows much more honor and love of God/Allaah for Jesus son of Mary, the honorable Messiah (peace be upon him.)
If Jesus chose to go to the cross, or to obey God Who sent Him to the cross, it is not a matter of "honor" or being too "honorable" for that to occur. In my opinion, Muhammad could not conceive of such a thing being honorable or good. To him it spelled defeat for Jesus and victory for His enemies, so his "revelation" from Gabriel was to deny that that could have occurred.

Consider the mindset of Muhammad at that time. He was fighting off enemies of monotheism, with that belief being HIS "killer point" to end all points. He was not considering redemption or atonement or anything remotely close to "the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world." Christianity, as HE saw it, was idolatry and anything BUT monotheism, with the "worship" or veneration of Mary, various saints, statues, relics, etc. Rather than simply correct those excesses, he went to the other extreme and denied the Deity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sins.

So he accomplished the denial of any worship that he saw as not being to God alone, but destroyed the only means today by which a person can receive forgiveness of sins---the atoning sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) had ended up in Islam as being a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not of God, not right, and it doesn't even make sense.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-09-2007, 06:24 PM
I'm afraid you got it wrong phil, God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) fought those who fought him. The pagans wanted to eradicate Islaam, so they fought, and permission was given by God to fight back. Why wouldn't it be? How else was one supposed to defend their faith? To let the enemy kill them all?


And i don't think you understand who Abraham is;

Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?

Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.

It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (Not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!


[Qur'an 3: 65-9]

Abraham was a pure monotheist, it is the way of the polytheists to actually worship other humans as 'intercessors' with God, or other stone rocks etc. It is totally against the OT's teachings that God is in 3 parts, ALL the Messengers' of God called to the worship of our Creator and Sustainer ALONE, and this was the exact same call of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him.)

If you're amazed at his special creation, know that Adam was created without a father nor a mother. And his wife was created without any parents either, yet they were humans. And Mary was from their lineage, and without a doubt her son was Jesus, the Messiah. God is way above of having children of any sort, since He has no partner or no equals. And He is Alone worthy of worship.




Regards.
Reply

NoName55
06-09-2007, 06:48 PM
edit
Reply

Phil12123
06-09-2007, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Phil like always I do respect your belief and welcome your honest opinions.

I am quite confused by Philippians 2.

Philippians 2:
3. Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I see that as a statement that Jesus(as) was not God(swt) but, that God(swt) elevated him to a status above all other men. Just my opinion, astragfirullah
In context, we must consider what Jesus was before He humbled Himself and then what He is exalted to after His humiliation. Initially, He was in the form of God and equal with God (v.6). He then humbles Himself to take on a human form, the form of a servant (v.7). Then, after His death on the cross, God (the Father) exalts Him to a position in which His name is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, confessing that He is LORD to the glory of God the Father. Now, what would you call people bowing on knees to Jesus and confessing that HE is LORD, but worship? It's not just "a status above all other men," as you say. It is worship, as God. So, He returns to His original position of being equal with God (v.6).

This is consistent with Jesus' prayer in the Garden before His crucifixion, as recorded in John 17:5 --- "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

If Jesus were only a man, could He had prayed that way? No, based on Isaiah 42:8 --- "I am the Lord, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
Reply

Zulkiflim
06-09-2007, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
If Jesus chose to go to the cross, or to obey God Who sent Him to the cross, it is not a matter of "honor" or being too "honorable" for that to occur. In my opinion, Muhammad could not conceive of such a thing being honorable or good. To him it spelled defeat for Jesus and victory for His enemies, so his "revelation" from Gabriel was to deny that that could have occurred.

Consider the mindset of Muhammad at that time. He was fighting off enemies of monotheism, with that belief being HIS "killer point" to end all points. He was not considering redemption or atonement or anything remotely close to "the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world." Christianity, as HE saw it, was idolatry and anything BUT monotheism, with the "worship" or veneration of Mary, various saints, statues, relics, etc. Rather than simply correct those excesses, he went to the other extreme and denied the Deity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sins.

So he accomplished the denial of any worship that he saw as not being to God alone, but destroyed the only means today by which a person can receive forgiveness of sins---the atoning sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) had ended up in Islam as being a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not of God, not right, and it doesn't even make sense.

Salaam,

Wish to correct you

First off,the words of the quran did not originate from Propeht Muhammad saw,he is not the author but Allah.

In that time,the wahyu that came down was simple and staright forward.

worship ONE GOD not many
do not worship idols.

Also the christian did not portrya a big part in Mecca so there were no inlfueces to distort the message
while the Chrisitan worshiped Prophet Jesus as god,the Meccan at that time had 300++ idols,god's.

Also,in Islam as it is in Judasim,Allah need not blood to flow to forgive.
Nor does Allah require a sacrifice to forgive.

Allah is the most Merciful
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 07:18 PM
then what He is exalted to after His humiliation.
God can get humiliated??!??

Initially, He was in the form of God and equal with God (v.6). He then humbles Himself to take on a human form, the form of a servant (v.7). Then, after His death on the cross, God (the Father) exalts Him to a position in which His name is above every name,
you are confirming with this statement, that there are at least 2 Gods, Jesus and his Father, so they are not the "ONE TRUE GOD" with different manifestations.

It's not just "a status above all other men," as you say. It is worship, as God. So, He returns to His original position of being equal with God (v.6).
yes that's why Qur'an says,
4:171.
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

This is consistent with Jesus' prayer in the Garden before His crucifixion, as recorded in John 17:5 --- "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
I dont understand, how can God pray to God, or if you say "One God with different manifestations" , how can God pray to himself?

This is consistent with Jesus' prayer in the Garden before His crucifixion, as recorded in John 17:5 --- "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
If Jesus were only a man, could He had prayed that way? No, based on Isaiah 42:8 --- "I am the Lord, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
He wouldn't. and He didn't . But do you feel proud about such a prayer??
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 07:21 PM
Also,in Islam as it is in Judasim,Allah need not blood to flow to forgive.
Nor does Allah require a sacrifice to forgive.
Surah Hajj 22:37.
There does not reach Allah their flesh nor their blood, but to Him is acceptable the guarding (against evil) on your part; thus has He made them subservient to you, that you may magnify Allah because He has guided you aright; and give good news to those who do good (to others).
Reply

MustafaMc
06-09-2007, 08:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Wow, you hit the nail on the head when you say, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but your belief in One God and your attempts at worship, etc. I am afraid for you, and I really mean that. I wish there was something I could do to help you see the error of your way in giving up that "security blanket" as you call it. Only the blood of Jesus can wash away your sins and you have cast it off. Wow. Scary can hardly describe it.

And for what? To embrace "Tawheed"? But is believing there is one God (which Christians believe too, believe it or not) going to save you from hell?
Perhaps that is the most telling point of all - that I would be willing to reject that guaranteed "get out of Hell, free" card (which is believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for my sins) and to rather accept the uncertainity of standing before Allah with nothing but my belief in One God and striving to follow the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad. Perhaps, I have come to believe to my core that the "card" is merely a piece of paper with a few words written on it and has no more value than Monopoly money. I choose to believe that Allah has no son or partner and have faith that His Mercy is sufficient for me. The doubts come in when I remember how poorly I compare to the model for how to live my life and how to worship Allah.

Are you any better off than monotheistic Jews?
Yes, because I accept Prophet Muhammad as my example to follow and therefore worship Allah as He has instructed us to. The monotheistic Jews have a similar concept of God to that of the Muslims as opposed to the Christian Trinity, but they reject the prophethood of both Jesus and Muhammad. They will have to stand in judgement before Allah as you and I will.

This verse comes to mind: James 2:19 - - "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble!" The demons don't just believe there is one God---they KNOW it. But that doesn't save them.

Peace
Yes, but the demons are not striving to worship Allah and to submit their wills to His.
Reply

Phil12123
06-09-2007, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
I'm afraid you got it wrong phil, God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) fought those who fought him. The pagans wanted to eradicate Islaam, so they fought, and permission was given by God to fight back. Why wouldn't it be? How else was one supposed to defend their faith? To let the enemy kill them all?
I think you must have missed by point. Perhaps we should review what I said:

If Jesus chose to go to the cross, or to obey God Who sent Him to the cross, it is not a matter of "honor" or being too "honorable" for that to occur. In my opinion, Muhammad could not conceive of such a thing being honorable or good. To him it spelled defeat for Jesus and victory for His enemies, so his "revelation" from Gabriel was to deny that that could have occurred.

Consider the mindset of Muhammad at that time. He was fighting off enemies of monotheism, with that belief being HIS "killer point" to end all points. He was not considering redemption or atonement or anything remotely close to "the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world." Christianity, as HE saw it, was idolatry and anything BUT monotheism, with the "worship" or veneration of Mary, various saints, statues, relics, etc. Rather than simply correct those excesses, he went to the other extreme and denied the Deity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sins.

So he accomplished the denial of any worship that he saw as not being to God alone, but destroyed the only means today by which a person can receive forgiveness of sins---the atoning sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) had ended up in Islam as being a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not of God, not right, and it doesn't even make sense.
Notice I did not say anything good or bad about Muhammad's fighting off enemies of monotheism. I was just stating it as a fact. Opposing polytheism, in my opinion, is a good thing. Whether he did that with pursuasive argumentation or used the sword, I've heard both arguments and am not presently concerned with that. The point I was making is this: his main concern was to advance monotheism and defeat polytheism with all the idols of those worshipping many gods. His view of Christianity may have been only of the Catholics who, to him, were no better than those who worshipped many gods. Whether it was worship of Jesus or worship of Mary, various saints, statues, relics, etc., he was determined to stop it and advance his monotheism. In doing so, he had little concern for an individual's redemption, atonement for sin, or God's sending Jesus to die for sinners. Not understanding Christ's atoning sacrifice and being offended at all the crucifixes showing Jesus on the cross, he was determined to fight that also, so I believe he concocted the myth that Jesus didn't really die and instead was "rescued" by God and taken to heaven, with someone else dying in His place.

I find it interesting that the myth did not totally discount crucifixion, or that Jesus was going to be crucified, or that someone was in fact crucified. Those historical facts remained intact. The historical fact that it was Jesus was simply denied, though there is NO historical evidence to support that. No historian of that era comes forth to say Judas or anyone else was crucified instead of Jesus. It is merely Muhammad's word that the angel Gabriel told him that, and nothing more.

These verses come to mind:


Galatians 1:
6. I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7. which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Reply

vpb
06-09-2007, 10:41 PM
Where is it in the Qur'an that can back up why Muslims believe that Mary was part of the trinity?
who said about Mary is part of trinity???

Qur'an doesn't go in depth what is trinity. but even so, it doesn't say Mary is part of trinity. no where.

and no muslim believes mary is part of trinity. muslims believe that mary is worshipped in some places, but not part of trinity.
Reply

Woodrow
06-09-2007, 11:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I don't want you to have that impressioon of me because its false.
Where is it in the Qur'an that can back up why Muslims believe that Mary was part of the trinity?
Muslims do not beleive anybody makes up the Trinity as the Trinity does not exist.

I believe what you are making reference to is this:

5:116. And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. P Y C

5:117. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things. P Y C


Shakir's Quran Translation
I had been looking through out the Historical sites and trying to find some of the various Christian Churches in existance prior to Muhammad(PBUH) There were some very strange teachings among a few of them. I recall from my long ago study of church history there was some confusion as to if there was a trinity and if there was who did it compose of. I seem to recall that the Marconites, Marionists, and Sabiaans and possibly a few others were teaching that the trinity was Mary, Gabrial and Jesus(as). At the moment I can not offer any proof of that as I can not remember what history books I read that in. naturaly I do not expect you to accept that without proof so at the moment I will just say I believe I read that about 45 years ago.

I am glad to hear this tho:

I don't want you to have that impression of me because its false.
I have no way of knowing what is in another person's heart, so I will accept your statement that is not an accurate impression of you.
Reply

Woodrow
06-10-2007, 12:19 AM
One of the things that leads me to believe that the teachings of the trinity are false is it does not seem to have been widespread among early Christianity and was not officialy adopted as a Church belief until 325 AD

I am going to try to show this without any reference to Islam or Islamic beliefs.


I
n Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity states that God is one being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons: the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth), and the Holy Spirit. Since the 4th century, in both Eastern and Western Christianity, this doctrine has been stated as "three persons in one God," all three of whom, as distinct and co-eternal persons, are of one indivisible Divine essence, a simple being. Supporting the doctrine of the Trinity is known as Trinitarianism. The majority of Christians are Trinitarian, and regard belief in the Trinity as a test of orthodoxy. Opposing, nontrinitarian positions that are held by some groups include Binitarianism (two deities/persons/aspects), Unitarianism (one deity/person/aspect), the Godhead (Latter Day Saints) (three separate beings) and Modalism (Oneness).

In addition to teaching that God comprises three persons, the doctrine also teaches that the Son Himself has two distinct natures, one fully divine and the other fully human.

Neither the Old Testament nor New Testament uses the term "Trinity," though Trinitarians believe the concept is implicit in various biblical passages (see Scripture section below). The doctrine of the Trinity is the result of continuous exploration by the church of the biblical data, argued in debate and treatises.[1] It was expressed in early writings from the beginning of the second century forward.[1] The First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD established a nearly universal Trinitarian dogma and expressly rejected any heresies. The most widely recognized Biblical foundations for the doctrine's formulation are in the Gospel of John.[2]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

This next article is very lengthy. I will just post part of it. Highlight what I find significant and post the link for those who wish to read more.

The Holy Trinity
Fresco from Cyprus Monastery (15th c.)

From Jesus to Godhead
(1) Beliefs About the Divine Nature of Jesus

Distinct from God?

"The Father and I are one."
- John 10:30

"The Father is greater than I."
- John 14:28

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature [or 'in the form of' - Greek: en morfh qeon] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature [or 'the form'] of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
- Philippians 2:5-11

"Paul's Christ is not God, he is God's first creation, and there is no room for the trinitarian formula of the Athanasian Creed nor for its doctrine that the Son was 'not made, nor created, but begotten.' But inasmuch as the visible universe is the expression of the Invisible God, the Christ, as first-product, comprises the whole of that expression in himself."
- The Christian Conspiracy: The Orthodox Suppression of Original Christianity

"I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me."
- John 5:30

"The lecture on authority is cast in the first person, which is uncharacteristic of Jesus' mode of speech....Rather than the authentic words of Jesus, the author of the Fourth Gospel is presenting his own meditations of the theological significance of Jesus."
- Robert W. Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Five Gospels

Although Jesus is portrayed in the gospels as someone distinct from God, the following phrase also crops up:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [or into] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
- Matthew 28:19 (Acts 8:16; 19:5; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; 10:2 and Galatians 3:27.)

"Matthew did not include in Jesus' fictitious instructions to his followers to preach to gentiles, the words: immersing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the consecrated breath [holy ghost] (Matthew 28:19b). That piece of Nicene mythology was interpolated into Matthew no earlier than the generation immediately preceding the council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. Eusebius, who wrote in the early fourth century C.E., quoted from some manuscripts of Matthew that contained 28:19b and some that did not. Since there was no conceivable way that a copyist could have accidentally omitted the trinitarian formula, that it was not part of the original version of Matthew is the necessary conclusion."
- William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
- 1 Timothy 2:5

The pastoral letter of 1 Timothy by Pseudo-Paul "can be taken as evidence that, as late as 120 C.E., even the Christians had not yet heard the theory that Jesus was God..."
- William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus

This conclusion is not supported by contemporary Roman sources however.

"Pliny the Younger, proconsul in the province of Bithynia (in Asia Minor) during C.E. 111-13, describes for the Emperor Trajan his method of handling Christians who are denounced to him (Letter 10.96). Among the practices of Christians, Pliny mentions their custom of meeting regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses 'to Christ as to a god' (Christo quasi deo)."
"...the satirist Lucian of Samosata (ca. 115-ca. 200) wrote a mocking life of a convert to and then apostate from Christianity, The Passing of Peregrinus. The Christians are said to be so enamored of Peregrinus that they revered him as a god '...next after that other, to be sure, whom they still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world."
- John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.

The Trinitarian Doctrine
The concept of the Holy Trinity has a precedent in the "God is One" acclamation of the Egyptian New Kingdom a millenium before Jesus.

"The ancient Egyptians believed that God could be manifest in any form he/she chose. Thus, many deities have multiple representations, with Re, the solar deity having 76 forms in all, as may be seen in the New Kingdom royal tombs at Thebes. In those same tombs, you have a realistic picture of the trinity. The solar deity Re, depicted as a disk, and within the disk are Khepri, the scarab beetle form of Re, and the ram-headed Re-Horakhti. These three aspects of the solar deity were respectively, the morning sun, the midday disk sun, and the evening form. Incidentally, the morning form, Khepri, was the resurrected sun, which the Egyptians believed daily died when it set in the western horizon, but then, in the deepest night hours was magically transformed back into the scarab, and reborn in the eastern horizon, as Khepri. Many of the earliest Christian theologians lived in Alexandria, and so they adopted this Egyptian religious concept for explaining the Christian Trinity."
- Frank J. Yurco

A "succession of great Christian thinkers (and their Gnostic forerunners)...originated from Egypt or lived there, starting with Valentine and Basilides (c. C.E. 135), followed by Clement and Origen, and leading to Alexander, Athansius and the presbyter Arius."
- Seigfreid Morenz, Egyptian Religion

"It would be ridiculous to imagine that the body of the Redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion."
- Clement of Alexandria

"The Word disguised himself by appearing in a body...by the works he did in the body [he] showed himself to be, not man, but God."
- Archdeacon Athanasius [later bishop of Alexandria], On the Incarnation of the Word 16:1

"According to the Alexandrians, therefore, Jesus had been God, and had existed in total equality with God since before time began. To view him any other way made him less than God, which was unthinkable."
- Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence

"Tertullian, a lawyer and presbyter of the third century Church in Carthage, was the first to use the word 'Trinity' when he put forth the theory that the Son and the Spirit participate in the being of God, but all are of one being of substance with the Father."
- "Islam: Prophethood, Jesus & Trinity"

"The merging of Jesus into a Holy Trinity occured "probably under Gnostic influence which in turn developed from Neo-Platonism. The concept is that the one transcendent God is an impersonal God (contrast with Judaism's personal God) who is beyond the reach of mere man - hence the need for a mediator between God and man. There are two mediators: Logos the son of God personifies male rationality and logic, and Sophos the daughter of God personifies female wisdom and intuition. Jesus of course was related to Logos in the Gospel of John and the 'Holy Spirit' tended to be seen as Sophos."
- Paul Harvey



"[Tom] Kopecek [CrossTalk - December 4 1996] locates the crucial philosophical background for the Trinity in Ptolemaic Valentinian Christianity. In their view, human beings differed most in how much of a share of the Spirit they had (most people didn't have much if any of it.) It was the Spirit which linked them to the divine. In the development of the Pleroma, there was a hierarchy of thirty Aeons. But because each of them were spiritual beings, they were all of the same substance or essence (homoousios)-- i.e., spirit. This idea of the Pleroma provided something of a model for the later orthodox Catholic view of the Trinity, for the Valentinians looked upon the Pleroma as divided into three main divisions, the beings or 'persons' of which were distinguishable but nonetheless all fully divine or God. The first known use of homoousios with reference to the relationship between God and Jesus was by Paul of Samosata, third century Bishop of Antioch."
- Bob Schacht (CrossTalk - 17 Oct 1998)

(2) The Council of Nicea

Alexandrian Theology
"Many scholars see the core of Alexandrian theology as Deification or the grace of renewal. By deification the Alexandrians mean the renewal of human nature as a whole, to attain sharing in the characteristics of our Lord Jesus Christ in place of the corrupt human nature, or as the apostles state that the believer may enjoy "the partaking in the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), or the new man in the image of His Creator (Col. 3:10).
This theological mind draws the heart of the Alexandrians away from the arguments about the definitions of the theological terms to concentrate on attaining the divine grace as being an enjoyment of the unity with the Father, in His only-begotten Son, Jesus, by the work of His Holy Spirit, or attaining Christ Himself who renews our nature in Him."
- The Characteristics of Alexandrian Theology

"For this He came down,
for this He assumed human nature,
for this He willingly endured the sufferings of man,
that by being reduced to the measure of our weakness
He might raise us to the measure of His power.
The Word of God, became man just that you may learn from a Man
how it may be that man should become god."
- Clement of Alexandria

" He was made man that we might be gods...For as, although there be one Son by nature, True and Only-Begotten, we too become sons, not as He in nature and truth, but according to the grace of Him that calls, and though we are men from the earth, are yet called gods."
- Athanasius

A Crisis in Christianity
"According to the Egyptian Gospel Jesus is supposed to have said to his disciples that 'the same was the Father, the same was the Son and the same was the Holy Ghost'."
- Seigfreid Morenz, Egyptian Religion

"However, for those who had grown up around Antioch, the region that included the homeland of the earthly Jesus, there was an altogether different emphasis and outlook. In the third century the great Lucian of Antioch, reflecting Christianity's origins in Jewish monotheism, had stressed the essential oneness of God, the simple humanity of Jesus, and the importance of the way of life Jesus taught, which those obsessed with theology too easily overlooked."
- Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence

The School of Antioch was in directed opposition to the School of Alexandria, which supported the trinitarian creed. The Christians in Antioch claimed that they possessed the true manuscripts (Textus Receptus) of the Gospels. They charged that the Alexandrian manuscripts, which were used as the source for revised bible versions, were composed by heretics.
Although Arius was Deacon of the Church in Alexandria, Egypt, he was also a follower of Lucian. His philosophers and textual criticism opposed the trinitarian doctrine of the Alexandrian school and provoked a crisis within the church. The Arian controversy, as it came to be known, eventually spread across the Roman Empire.

"For He [the Son] is not eternal or co-eternal or co-unoriginate with the Father, nor has He His being together with the Father, as some speak of relations, introducing two ingenerate beginnings, but God is before all things as being Monad and Beginning of all. Wherefore also He is before the Son; as we have learned also from they preaching in the midst of the Church. "
- Arius' Letter to Alexander of Alexandria (excerpt) 320 CE

(Modern critics have charged that Arius' true agenda was to promote the worship of Theotokos, the mother-goddess. Arius, however, writes about "One God, alone Ingenerate, alone Everlasting, alone Unbegun, alone True, alone having Immortality, alone Wise, alone Good, alone Sovereign" ["Letter to Alexander"].) Airus' superior was Alexandria's Bishop Alexander, supreme ecclesiastical authority for Egypt and Libya. According to Alexander, Arius taught that God chose Jesus "on account of the carefulness of His manners and His practice" and was "a thing created, and a thing made" ("Epistles on the Arian Heresy and the Deposition of Arius"). This is in contrast to the description of Jesus in the Gospel of John as "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father", whom Alexander describes as "subsistence of the divine Word [Logos]".

"St. Athanasius [the succeeding Bishop of Alexandria] defends the divinity of the Holy Spirit in his reply to the Arians who believed that He was a creature and less than the Logos. He also writes about the Holy Spirit in four letters addressed to his friend Bishop Serapion. His theology concerning the Holy Spirit is the same concerning Christ. The Holy Spirit must be God, because if He were a creature, we could not participate in His divine nature. He states, 'If by participation in the Spirit, we are made 'sharers in the divine nature' 2 Pet. 1:4. It should not to be doubted that His nature is of God."
- The Characteristics of Alexandrian Theology

In an attempt to end the controversy, Arius was excommunicated by Bishop Alexander. Bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia, however, convened a synod of the bishops in his region in support of Arius. The emperor Constantine suddenly found himself embroiled in a bitter theological dispute which had political consequences which threatened the Pax Romana he had foughtso hard to establish. Therefore, in 318 CE, he sent Arius and Alexander each a letter asking them to resolve the dispute.
Constantine

The Emperor Constantine

"Constantine the Victor, Supreme Augustus, to Alexander and Arius...how deep a wound has not only my ears but my heart received from the report that divisions exist among yourselves...having enquired carefully into the origin and foundation of these differences, I find their cause to be of a truly insignificant nature, quite unworthy of such bitter contention...Restore my quiet days and untroubled nights to me, so that joy of undimmed light, delight in a tranquil life, may one again be mine."
- Constantine
Source: http://www.mystae.com/restricted/ref...h/beliefs.html
Reply

MustafaMc
06-10-2007, 12:56 AM
Just noticed that Br. Woodrow had already quoted this. Sorry for the duplication.

format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I don't want you to have that impressioon of me because its false.
Where is it in the Qur'an that can back up why Muslims believe that Mary was part of the trinity?
Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."
As demonstrated by others in other threads, Muslims hold that Catholics treat Mary as a god by praying to her.

Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee,
blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
pray for us sinners, now, and at
the hour of our death.
Amen.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hail_Mary"
Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 01:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
who said about Mary is part of trinity???

Qur'an doesn't go in depth what is trinity. but even so, it doesn't say Mary is part of trinity. no where.

and no muslim believes mary is part of trinity. muslims believe that mary is worshipped in some places, but not part of trinity.
OK, I know what Muslims believe today about how Christians see the trinity and Mary, but where does it say that Muhammad believed or implied that Mary was part of the trinity? Is it in the Hadiath?
Reply

MustafaMc
06-10-2007, 01:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
OK, I know what Muslims believe today about how Christians see the trinity and Mary, but where does it say that Muhammad believed or implied that Mary was part of the trinity? Is it in the Hadiath?
How many times do we have to tell you that Islam (Quran, hadith, etc) does not teach that Mary is part of the Trinity? We have quoted the relevant ayat, but you just keep on...
Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 02:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Just noticed that Br. Woodrow had already quoted this. Sorry for the duplication.


Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."
As demonstrated by others in other threads, Muslims hold that Catholics treat Mary as a god by praying to her.

Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee,
blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
pray for us sinners, now, and at
the hour of our death.
Amen.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hail_Mary"
Thanks for sharing the verse that did it for me. That is right, some Catholics do worship Mary, but they error not knowing the Scriptures even as Muhammad had error not knowing the Scripture, cuz nowhere in the Bible are we ever taught or is it implied to worship Mary. God would never ask Jesus "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?"That alone convinces me that Islam is not for me. If God was revealing truth to Muhammad, he would not have made the Biblical interpretation mistake as the Catholics by a ascribing to Christians what they believe(d) the Bible says. He would have referred to what the Bible actually teaches instead. This is a very significant mistake. If that mistake were made by the prophets in the Old Testament, they would have been stoned for being false prophets. Moreover, even Muhammad’s disciples have left him for making changes to what he said Allah revealed to him.:rollseyes
Reply

Phil12123
06-10-2007, 02:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
do u have historical facts that Jesus was crucified that you are saying there is no historical fact that he was not crucified?

in the problem with Jesus's crucifiction, history is too young to remember. and Qur'an does not deny crucifiction as an event, but it denies that Jesus a.s was on the cross. So it appeared to them that it was Jesus a.s , but in fact He wasnt. Do you have any evidence that Jesus a.s himself was on the cross??
ALL the evidence says Jesus Himself died on the cross. Everything from the Gospel accounts to contemporary historians to 600 years of church history, prior to Muhammad. NOTHING says otherwise. NOTHING.

There are many sources you can consult but I think I can say without contradiction that NO reputable, historical source will say otherwise.

Here is one link, among many, that you can check out:
http://www.4truth.net/site/apps/nl/c...437&ct=1483159
Reply

MustafaMc
06-10-2007, 03:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
Thanks for sharing the verse that did it for me. That is right, some Catholics do worship Mary, but they error not knowing the Scriptures even as Muhammad had error not knowing the Scripture, cuz nowhere in the Bible are we ever taught or is it implied to worship Mary. God would never ask Jesus "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?"That alone convinces me that Islam is not for me. If God was revealing truth to Muhammad, he would not have made the Biblical interpretation mistake as the Catholics by a ascribing to Christians what they believe(d) the Bible says. He would have referred to what the Bible actually teaches instead. This is a very significant mistake. If that mistake were made by the prophets in the Old Testament, they would have been stoned for being false prophets. Moreover, even Muhammad’s disciples have left him for making changes to what he said Allah revealed to him.:rollseyes
No, the point is that the Quran was addressing what people were actually doing and whether or not this came from what Jesus said or from innovations after he ascended to Heaven.
Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 03:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
ALL the evidence says Jesus Himself died on the cross. Everything from the Gospel accounts to contemporary historians to 600 years of church history, prior to Muhammad. NOTHING says otherwise. NOTHING.

There are many sources you can consult but I think I can say without contradiction that NO reputable, historical source will say otherwise.

Here is one link, among many, that you can check out:
http://www.4truth.net/site/apps/nl/c...437&ct=1483159
The disciples themselves and their testimonies are circumstantial proof. They were practically scared of their own shadows. They ran away from Christ denied Him you name it. They went from scared cowardly type individuals to bold unstoppable warriors for Christ. How could they change like that? It is cuz they saw something. They saw Jesus die and they saw Jesus risen. They couldn’t even believe their own eyes. Thomas said, "I won’t believe unless I could put my finger in His wounds." Jesus let him do it. Thomas confesses to Jesus, “My Lord and my god.” He was calling Jesus God. This was not an expression of awe. He saw Jesus. After Jesus spent some 40 days with them, they saw Jesus ascend into the heavens. We have the right God; there is no question about it. :statisfie
Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 03:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
No, the point is that the Quran was addressing what people were actually doing and whether or not this came from what Jesus said or from innovations after he ascended to Heaven.
:laugh: No, no, no, nice try though. Muhammad thought that that was what the Bible teaches; He thought that the Bible teaches that Mary was a god (one of the trinity). Let's call a spade a spade. Besides, he is quoting what Allah is supposed to be saying to Jesus. Doesn't Allah know what the Bible teaches since He wrote it ALL. You have a severe problem on hand.
Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 04:03 AM
You error not knowing the Scriptures: God refers to Jesus as God in Hebrews but thy (Jesus) throne Oh God is established forever... Jesus was a man of course He was subordinate to His Father in Heaven, but He was no less deity, just like as if you have a son; he would be under you but no less human. Besides, God is only one. God is a Spirit and Jesus represents His word that was made flesh. Jesus is the word of God, and the Bible says that He exalts His word above His name. The Bible is replete with Jesus saying He is the only way to God, And with the Son giving glory to the Father and the Father glorifying the Son. Anyone trying to get to heaven in any other fashion then submit to the Lordship of Jesus will not make it. God (Allah) will not look at anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as His Son. This is not ascribing partners to God; this is glorifying Him in the most glorious way humanly possible. But I do believe the Muslims are ascribing a partner to God by having to confess Muhammad as his messenger for their salvation, but then again they cannot be sure of that until they die. If we look at the Bible, we can tell where both of us will be going. If we look at the Qur'an it is ambiguous where we will go. What sounds like a more just God, is it not the God who gives you an opportunity to be sure in this life where you will spent all of eternity or the one who doesn't?
Reply

vpb
06-10-2007, 05:23 AM
How many times do we have to tell you that Islam (Quran, hadith, etc) does not teach that Mary is part of the Trinity? We have quoted the relevant ayat, but you just keep on...
;D;D loll

Moreover, even Muhammad’s disciples have left him for making changes to what he said Allah revealed to him.

can you please expand this statement :) cuz I want to know more about it :D also include evidence please.

ALL the evidence says Jesus Himself died on the cross. Everything from the Gospel accounts to contemporary historians to 600 years of church history, prior to Muhammad. NOTHING says otherwise. NOTHING.

There are many sources you can consult but I think I can say without contradiction that NO reputable, historical source will say otherwise.

Here is one link, among many, that you can check out:
http://www.4truth.net/site/apps/nl/c...437&ct=1483159
what evidence??? no no, don't give me 5 year old stories about Jesus's crussifiction, show me scientifical proof, don't tell me historical 'facts' written by people. Just bc some "PhDs" write some "history" from bible, it doesn't mean it is a fact.

No, no, no, nice try though. Muhammad thought that that was what the Bible teaches; He thought that the Bible teaches that Mary was a god (one of the trinity).
please show me the hadith , where did Muhammed saws say "bible teaches.....", and don't bring me here conclusions , but show me the hadith or ayat.

Doesn't Allah know what the Bible teaches since He wrote it ALL. You have a severe problem on hand.
again, where does Allah swt explicitely say that "bible teaches ......" ????
Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 10:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
;D;D loll

can you please expand this statement :) cuz I want to know more about it :D also include evidence please.

what evidence??? no no, don't give me 5 year old stories about Jesus's crussifiction, show me scientifical proof, don't tell me historical 'facts' written by people. Just bc some "PhDs" write some "history" from bible, it doesn't mean it is a fact.

please show me the hadith , where did Muhammed saws say "bible teaches.....", and don't bring me here conclusions , but show me the hadith or ayat.

again, where does Allah swt explicitely say that "bible teaches ......" ????
It is us Christians that know what the Bible says, and we now know what Muhammad says Christianity teaches in surah 5:116. That satisfies us about the the prophet's misrepresentation of Christianity. Now, the question is, if he is mistaken there, where else is he? By the way, surah: 73-75 is also a misrepresentation: "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three." This is based on his baises against Christians and is not according to knowledge; furthermore, it is an errant assumption that the trinity makes God one in three. Orthodox Christianity from the Bible teaches that God is one substance, and three persons. It appears that you a being drawn away from the truth with Muhammad's errant and presumptuous statements about the Godhead. I will get back to you on my research regarding Muhammad’s disciples leaving him cuz he allowed changes to Allah’s words. :D :D :D
Reply

vpb
06-10-2007, 11:06 AM
It is us Christians that know what the Bible says, and we now know what Muhammad says Christianity teaches in surah 5:116. That satisfies us about the the prophet's misrepresentation of Christianity. Now, the question is, if he is mistaken there, where else is he?
haha, you don't even have the same bible, and you want to say that "it is us christians that know what the bible is", now let's see about the following verse that you mentioned,

5:116.
And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

where does it say that Mary is part of trinity? the verse is just telling that some poeple worship Jesus a.s , and some worship Mary, isn't this true?

By the way, surah: 73-75 is also a misrepresentation: "They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three." This is based on his baises against Christians and is not according to knowledge; furthermore, it is an errant assumption that the trinity makes God one in three. Orthodox Christianity from the Bible teaches that God is one substance, and three persons.
I can't even respond on this, bc first you need to clarify between yourself (Christians), wether God is three persons or one person three manifestations or what. bc Wodroow showed something else from the bible. so you need first to decide about what you believe and then come and discuss things which Qur'an talks about.
and what makes you think that you have the same belief, and same christians as the ones at the time of Muhammed saws??? if those christians at that time would see you , would call you deviated from the truth. Everytime people makes changes in the bible. recently we have in america where they made the changes on bible, by changing the meaning of all verse that have to do with jews, which talks against jews, so they translated them, and changed the verses where they sound nice to jews, and not against them. if you want for a demonstration I could list a couple of examples :)

Orthodox Christianity from the Bible teaches that God is one substance, and three persons.
yes, three person, the Father , the son, and the holy spirit . so basically the father in your bible, is Allah swt, just that you add 'the son', and the 'holy spirit'.

It appears that you a being drawn away from the truth with Muhammad's errant and presumptuous statements about the Godhead.
i'm repeating it for the last time. Muhammed didn't make assumption based on what he thought. but rather than what Allah swt revealed to him.

I will get back to you on my research regarding Muhammad’s disciples leaving him cuz he allowed changes to Allah’s words.
so, this is your method, first you attack, and then go and make research what do u find about it. haha lol.






Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 11:16 AM
Have you heard of "Satanic verse" This is where Muhammad oscillates bwt revelations from Satan and Allah: "Did you consider al-hat and al-Uzza And al-Manat, the third, the other? Those are the swans exalted; Their intercession is expected; Their likes are not neglected." As I had mentioned, this shocked Muhammad's disciples because there is a concession to paganism here. Muhammad withdrew his revelation because Satan deceived him. Muhammad also improved on God’s word. In other words, he changed Allah’s wisdom for his own on many occasions. The Prophet’s nonchalant emendations can be found in the hadith. For instance, when the Prophet said, “And God is mighty and wise” (aziz, hakim), ‘Abdollah b. Abi Sarh suggested writing down “knowing and wise” (alim, hakim) the Prophet had no objection. Muhammad has done this on other ocassions as well. As a result ‘Abdollah renounced Islam and joined the Qoray****es. He felt that it is an errant spirit that could modify the word of Allah.
Reply

vpb
06-10-2007, 11:27 AM
Have you heard of "Satanic verse" This is where Muhammad oscillates bwt revelations from Satan and Allah: "Did you consider al-hat and al-Uzza And al-Manat, the third, the other? Those are the swans exalted; Their intercession is expected; Their likes are not neglected." As I had mentioned, this shocked Muhammad's disciples because there is a concession to paganism here. Muhammad withdrew his revelation because Satan deceived him. Muhammad also improved on God’s word. In other words, he changed Allah’s wisdom for his own on many occasions. The Prophet’s nonchalant emendations can be found in the hadith. For instance, when the Prophet said, “And God is mighty and wise” (aziz, hakim), ‘Abdollah b. Abi Sarh suggested writing down “knowing and wise” (alim, hakim) the Prophet had no objection. Muhammad has done this on other ocassions as well. As a result ‘Abdollah renounced Islam and joined the Qoray****es. He felt that it is an errant spirit that could modify the word of Allah.
ohh I seee :) you are reading the 'satanic verses' :) you like to read from non-islamic sources :)

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/880-alleged-satanic-verses.html

and can you please tell me who narrated the hadith? what is its status and what collection it is in?
Reply

vpb
06-10-2007, 11:46 AM
Abdullah Ibn Sad Ibn Abi Sarh: Where Is the Truth?
Muhammad Ghoniem & M S M Saifullah
© Islamic Awareness, All Rights Reserved.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance:
This article is meant to answer the claims put forward by the Christian missionaries.
The author of that article claims that cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh, one of the scribes of the Prophet Muhammad(P), has contributed to the Qur'ânic text. Let us examine the references used by the author to support his claims and sort out his arguments in the light of famous Islamic resources.
The author of the criticism says:
Sarh left Islam and lived in Mecca. Some time later, Muhammad and his army moved on Mecca and took it without a fight.
Then in the passage quoted from the translation of Sîrat Rasulillah, he went on saying about Ibn Abî Sarh:
then he apostatized and returned to Quraysh [Mecca]
He also reported from al-Baidawî commenting on the the verse 6:93 that the reason that triggered apostasy of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh was the revelation of the verse 23:12. The following is the translation of Baidawî's report proposed by the critic:
'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him" refers to 'Abdullah Ibn Sâd Ibn Abi Sarh, who used to write for God's messenger. The verse (23:12) that says, "We created man of an extraction of clay" was revealed, and when Muhammad reached the part that says, "... thereafter We produced him as another creature (23:14), 'Abdullah said, "So blessed be God the fairest of creators!" in amazement at the details of man's creation. The Prophet said, "Write it down; for thus it has been revealed." 'Abdullah doubted and said, "If Muhammad is truthful then I receive the revelation as much as he does, and if he is a liar, what I said is a good as what he said."
The above claim can be summed up as follows: cAbdullâh was one of the scribes of the Prophet(P). Upon the revelation of the verse 23:12 and his anticipation on the end of the verse 23:14, he thought that he received the revelation as much as the Prophet(P) and he doubted in the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad(P). Therefore, he apostatized and returned to Quraysh [Mecca] where he sought refuge.
Apostacy of Ibn Sarh
In the beginning of our study, we have to determine whether he apostatized before the Hijrah, i.e., in Mecca or after the hijrah, i.e., in Medina. The author of the criticism says that cAbdullâh returned to Quraysh [Mecca] and the word he put between [ ] implies that he returned to Mecca.
As a matter of fact, there is an entire science dedicated to the study of the life of the companions of the Prophet and the later generations of Muslims who were involved in the transmission of hadîth. This science is calledcIlm al-Rijâl (i.e., the Science of the Folk). One of the biggest references in that field is Usûd Ulghâbah fi Ma'rifat Is-Sahâbah by Ibn al-Athîr. In the entry concerning cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh we find the following:

The above excerpt reads:
He converted to Islam before the conquest of Mecca and immigrated to the Prophet(P) [i.e. in Medina]. He used to record the revelation for the Prophet(P) before he apostatized and went back to Mecca. Then he told Quraysh: 'I used to orient Muhammad wherever I willed, he dictated to me "All-Powerful All-Wise" and I suggest "All Knowing All-Wise" so he would say: "Yes, it is all the same."[1]
From the above quotations of Usûd Ulghâbah, no doubt remains concerning the conversion of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh: he embraced Islam after the Hijrah and joined the Muslims in Medina. Thus, his apostasy occurred later which means it occurred in Medina.
cUlûm al-Qur'ân & Revelation
The "Science of Qur'ân" (in Arabic cUlûm al-Qur'ân) has fortunately conveyed lots of valuable details about the revelation of the Holy Qur'ân including the reason of the revelation (in Arabic Asbâb un-Nuzûl which is usually a certain event that motivated the revelation of some verses of the Qur'ân) and even the places where such and such verse or chapter of the Qur'ân were revealed to the Prophet(P). Note that the verses revealed in Mecca are called Meccan verses and the ones revealed in Medina are called Medinite verses. The main reference used in this article as to cUlûm al-Qur'ân is Al-Itqân fî cUlûm il-Qur'ân by Jalaluddîn al-Suyûtî.
Concerning Chapter 6 (from which the verse 6:93 is quoted), many reports support the fact that it was entirely revealed in Mecca. They also go on saying that this Chapter was escorted by 70,000 angels when Gabriel carried it down to the Prophet(P). Refer to Al-Itqân, Section 13: What was revealed scattered and what was revealed in one unit,[2]. One may also refer to Al-Itqân, Section 14: What was revealed with an escort and what was revealed alone[3]. Consequently, the opinion the verse 6:93 addressed cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh falls flat on its face. Many commentators convey reports that the revelation of the verse 6:93 addressed Musaylamah al-Kadhdhâb of al-Yamâmah and al-'Ansy of Yemen, both of them having claimed prophethood at that time.
For the sake of completeness, we will quote some more information given in Al-Itqân. According to Ibn as-Salâh in his Fâtawi:
The report that conveys the revelation of Chapter 6 entirely in one unit was given from the way of Ubayy Ibn Ka'b, it is weak in its isnâd (i.e. the chain of narration), and I have never seen a trustful (Sahih) isnâd for this tradition. Many traditions even said the contrary i.e. several verses of Chapter 6 were revealed later in Medina. They differed on the number of these verses whether they are 3 or 6 or some other number, and God knows best.[4]
So, some reports concerning Chapter 6 classify several verses as Medinite verses. These reports differed on the number of verses: a report on the authority of Ibn cAbbas excludes 3 verses (6:151 to 6:153), others say 6 verses (the previous ones + 6:91 + 6:93 & 6:94- they also say that the last two verses concern Musaylamah). Other reports exclude two verses only, for example 6:20 & 6:114. They also differ on Asbâb un-Nuzûl of the verses excluded as they either concern Musaylamah or a Jewish Rabbi of Medina or other reasons. So, not withstanding what is said in the previous paragraph, we will not close the case yet because of the slight doubt about Asbâb un-Nuzûl of verse 6:93.
According to the critic, the revelation of verse 23:12 and the amazed anticipation of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh on the end of verse 23:14 triggered his apostasy. Many books about the cUlûm al-Qur'ân have made an accurate classification of the Chapters and verses that were revealed in Mecca (those are called Meccan verses or Chapters), and the ones revealed in Medina (those are called Medinite). According to Al-Itqân, we learn that the full Chapter 23 (i.e., Sûrat al-Mu'minûn) is Meccan. Refer to pages 17-21 where many reports confirm the revelation of Chapter 23 in Mecca with no exception of any single verse.[5] Obviously, this report quoted from al-Baidawi is a gross fabrication since cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh embraced Islam after the revelation of Chapter 23. When we add to the above the fact that the full quotation from al-Baidawî was not put forward by the critic even when we asked for it, and given the fact that the reports are stated without the chains of transmission, the authentication of such a report is impossible. Moreover, a comparison to other commentaries of the Qur'ân (such as the commentaries of al-Qurtubî[6] and at-Tabarî[7]) mentioning the same report provide disrupted chains of transmission. That is why the claim of the critic based on the report of al-Baidawî looses conclusively all its value.
What Does Sirah Of al-cIraqî Actually Say?
Now let us look into the argument quoted from Is the Qur'ân Infallible?by cAbdullâhcAbd al-Fad.

The translation provided by the critic is:
The scribes of Muhammad were 42 in number. 'Abdullah Ibn Sarh al-`Amiri was one of them, and he was the first Qurai****e among those who wrote in Mecca before he turned away from Islam. He started saying, "I used to direct Muhammad wherever I willed. He would dictate to me 'All-Powerful, All-Wise'[the critic has wrongly translated 'Aziz by Most-High which is in Arabic 'Aliyy, it seems that he confused it with the previous word 'Alayya which means "to me"], and I would write down 'All-Wise' only. Then he would say, 'Yes it is all the same'. On a certain occasion he said, 'Write such and such', but I wrote 'Write' only, and he said, 'Write whatever you like.'" So when this scribe exposed Muhammad, he wrote in the Qur'an, "And who does greater evil than he who forges against God a lie, or says, 'To me it has been revealed', when naught has been revealed to him."
The rest of the English translation go further than what is stated in Arabic, so we will not quote it here. However, it is available at the original site.
The above argument is presented by the critic as a "quotation from as-Sîrah by al-'Iraqî". First of all, there are many people by the name of al-'Iraqî but the author does not say which al-cIraqî is mentioned here. Fortunately, God guided us to the source of this claim: Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah by al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî. In fact, al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî has wrote the Sîrah in a piece of poetry of 1000 verse called Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah. Here is the relevant quotation:[8]

In the first verse of the above quotation (i.e. verse 780 in the poem), al-Hâfidh al-'Iraqî starts by saying that the scribes of the Prophet(P) were 42. Obviously, this detail links Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah to the argument stated by the critic. The above quotation consists of twelve verses mentioning various scribes of the Holy Qur'ân among the most known. cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh is not mentioned yet. In the verse 786, al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî says:
And I added from various accounts on Sîrah a lot of people, it is for you to verify and check.
This means clearly that not all that is mentioned is to be taken blindly. Al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî is making a simple compilation of what he found leaving the verification for the reader. Then al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî goes on with his list:

In verses 796 to 798, al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî says:
They mentioned three who wrote [for the Prophet] and apostatized: Ibn Abî Sarh and Ibn Khatal and another one whose name is unknown. No one of them returned to the religion [Islam] except Ibn Abî Sarh while the others strayed from the right path.
A minimum of objectivity is enough to understand that al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî does not back up such claims. He is merely reporting accounts and asks the people interested in them to take upon themselves the burden of verification.
When we give a second look to the argument of the critic, we see clearly that he is putting words in the mouth of al-cIraqî. He is using the passage al-cIraqî himself doubts in the tone of established facts. This is called twisting facts to serve one's goal. It has nothing to do with objectivity, let alone the claimed honesty or the quest of the Truth.Al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî in his Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah does not assert for sure that cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh was a scribe of the Prophet(P). He also states clearly that the scribes who apostatized had gone astray. Therefore, he cannot contradict himself by saying what the critic is putting in his mouth. Consequently, in the absence of the source of such claims, we dismiss this argument unless the critic provides us with its source stated fully and correctly.
Discussion
1) What do we know about cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh?
He embraced Islam after the Hijrah while Muslims were living in Medina. We don't know the year exactly. He probably had the opportunity to write for the Prophet(P). He apostatized but the reason stated in many accounts (i.e. verse 23:12) is not consistent because it goes against many established reports in the cUlûm al-Qur'ân. He returned to Islam and was a good Muslim. Indeed, here is what is said about him quoted in the commentary of al-Qurtubî[9]:

For the convenience of our non-Arabic speaking audience, the full translation to English of the above report is also available.
In the above quotation, we read a similar report to Baidawî's. However, the report gives more details about cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh. Indeed, the report says:
According to Abû Omar, "cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh converted back to Islam during the conquest of Mecca and his Islam was fine, and later, his behavior was beyond reproach. He was among the wise and the noble from Quraysh, and was the knight of Banî 'Aamir Ibn Lu'ayy was respected among them. Later, 'Uthmân named him to govern Egypt in the year 25 H. He conquered Africa in the year 27 H and conquered Nuba in the year 31 H and he was the one who signed with the Nubites the armistice that is still valid today. He defeated the Romans in the battle of as-Sawaary in the year 34 H. When he returned from his advent, he was prevented from entering al-Fustât [the capital of Egypt], so he went to 'Asqalân where he lived until the murder of cUthmân(R). It was also said: he lived in Ramlah until he died away from the turmoil. And he prayed Allah saying: "O Allah make the prayer of subh the last of my deeds. So he performed wudu and prayed; he read Surat al-Fâtihah and al-'Aadiyât in the first rak'ah and read al-Fâtihah and another sûrah in the second rak'ah and made salâm on his right and died before he made salâm on the left side. All this report was conveyed by Yazîd Ibn Abî Habîb and others. He didn't pledge allegiance to cAlî nor to Mu'âwiyah (RR). His death was before the people agreed on Mu'âwiyah. It was also said that he died in Africa, but the correct is that he died in 'Asqalân in the year 36 H or 37 H and it was rather said 36 H.
In a nutshell, Ibn Abî Sarh embraced Islam after the Muslims had immigrated to Medina. He took the trouble to migrate to Medina where he became one of the scribes of the Prophet. For an unknown reason, he apostatized and went back to Mecca. He is supposed to have told the Meccans that he changed the Qur'ân according to his own will. This seems to be very predictable for someone in his situation seeking the favours of the Meccans whom he betrayed not a long time before. Then the above report states what is reported in Sîrat Rasulillah and in at-Tabaqât al-Kabîr as well: cAbdullâh was among the bunch that had to be executed but he could benefit of cUthmân's intercession and he kept his life safe. Though the beginning of his Islam was unstable (he migrated then apostatized then converted back to Islam in a very short time), he became a good Muslim and was even made the commander of Muslim troops. A report conveyed by 'Ikrimah in the commentary of at-Tabarî about verse 6:93 says that
'Abdullah Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh converted back to Islam before the conquest of Mecca by the Prophet(P).[10]
This means that he converted back to Islam willingly without the shadow of any pressure. Of course, like all the reports involved in this case, the transmission of this report is disrupted.
2) Did cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh contribute to the Qur'ân?
There is no factual proof for such a horrendous claim. The claim about Chapter 23 proved to be a fabrication because it was revealed before cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh became a Muslim. If we take into account the most admitted opinion among the Qur'ânic scholars, the entirety of Chapter 6 is Meccan. Consequently, the verse 6:93 is not revealed in regard of Ibn Abî Sarh but rather in regard of Musaylamah and al-'Ansy and more generally in regard of anyone who claims prophethood falsely.
Moreover, if the scribes were allowed to contribute to the Qur'ân, how can the critic explain that among the 42 scribes there is only one (cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh) who was bothered about it? Didn't the others feel uneasy about such a thing if it ever happened?
Of course, it is out of the question that the Prophet of God(P) allow such contribution because it is claimed many times in the Qur'ân that the Holy Book is dictated upon revelation and any contribution to it must be of divine inspiration.
3) The author of the criticism asks:
If this story about Sarh were a fabrication, why did so many early Muslim writers document it? Certainly devout Muslims would not document a lie that serves to undermine their faith.
This is the best question raised in the whole argument. Its answer is implied in the quotation of al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî in his Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah. Many of the early writers were concerned by the compilation only. Fearing that the material available could be lost, they collected whatever reports they could find without authenticating them. They left the authentication process to the following generations as it is clearly stated in the following excerpt of Alfiyyat us-Sirat in-Nabawiyyah by al-Hâfidh al-cIraqî:

In the verses 5 & 6, he says:
Let the seeker of knowledge know that Sîrah collects every account whether true or false. But the intention is to mention all that is conveyed in the books of Sîrah regardless of the isnaad. (i.e., the authenticity of the chains of narration)
A devout Muslim does not need to twist the facts to protect his faith especially when an authentication process existed even in the early stages of Islam. A whole Science is concerned with the reliability of the narrators based on their life and their moral values. That is why many people could compile many reports leaving the authentication procedure to the ones who followed them. In reality, if all the early scholars cared about authenticating every report they heard of, a lot of the material available today would be lost.
Unlike Muslims, some people, unaware of the Science of Hadîth and the "Knowledge of the Folk" when venturing into the Islamic references alone without a teacher, encounter great hardship digesting all the material available. Others, more wicked, use the same characteristic of the early references to lead innocent people astray. But, with God's help and protection, their dark plans are always unveiled. As for the author of the critic, we would rather refrain from classifying him in either category. The readership may judge him and only God can tell what his real intentions are.
4) If cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh really deserved to be executed according to a Law, why did the Prophet(P) accept the intercession of cUthmân?
This is a trick question. However, it also shows that the author of the criticism is either ignorant in the field of Islamic Law or his goal is to deceive as many people as he can. In terms of Islamic Law, there are two categories of crimes. The ones named by God (such as murder, theft, fornication etc.) to which He defined the proper punishment "Hudood"(the singular is 'Hadd'). And the ones not named by God, their evaluation and their punishment (called ta'dhîr) are left for the judgment of the sovereign. Provided that the reports of Sîrat Rasulillah and at-Tabaqât al-Kabîr are correct, the case of cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh is simply about the sovereign (Prophet Muhammad(P)) making a decree against a criminal (cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh) then upon the intercession of a third party (cUthmân Ibn 'Affân), the sovereign agrees to give amnesty to the criminal. Given that the punishment is originally left to the sovereign, a subsequent change in the judgment especially forgiveness cannot be criticized.

Conclusions
After the above study, the claims that the Holy Qur'ân has been tainted by Ibn Abî Sarh do not hold water. One thing is sure. We do not know a lot about the beginning of the faith of Ibn Abî Sarh. It was apparently unstable. However, later, he converted back to Islam and his faith was beyond reproach. The question raised about the change in the judgment concerning Ibn Abî Sarh denotes of real ignorance of the Islamic Law or a crooked intention of deception. If the goal behind that criticism was the quest of the Truth, then by God's will the above elaboration is likely to be enough for the author of the criticism to retract it.
And Allah knows best.
Acknowledgements
We would like to express our deep gratitude to Brother Khalid from the Emirates for his effective contribution to this article and for providing us with a lot of material and fruitful ideas. May Allah reward him for his good deeds.
Islamic Awareness

Qur'ân

Sources

Sarh

cAbdullâh Ibn Sâd Ibn Abî Sarh: Where Is the Truth?

References
[1] Ibn al-Athîr, Usûd Ulghâbah fî Ma'rifat Is-Sahâbah, 1995, Dâr al-Fikr, Beruit (Lebanon), Volume 3, p. 154.

[2] Jalaluddîn as-Suyûtî, Al-Itqân fî cUlûm il-Qur'ân (In Two Volumes), 1987, First Edition, Dâr al-Kutub al-cIlmiyyah, Beirut (Lebanon), p. 82.
[3] as-Suyûtî, Op.Cit, p. 83-85.
[4] as-Suyûtî, Op.Cit,, p. 82.
[5] as-Suyûtî, Op.Cit,, p. 17-21.
[6] al-Qurtubî, Al-Jâmic li Ahkâm Il-Qur'ân, Volume 7, page 40-41, Available online.
[7] Abû Jacfar Muhammad bin Jarîr al-Tabarî, Jâmic ul-Bayân fî Tafsîr Il-Qur'ân, 1986, Volume 5, published by Wizârat ul-Ma'rifah (The Ministry of Education), Beirut, Lebanon, Available online.
[8] Hafiz Zainuddîn cAbdurrahîm al-cIraqî, Alfiyyat us-Sîrat in-Nabawiyyah (attached to the book of as-Sîrah an-Nabawiyyah of Ibn Hisham), 1998 (Second Print), Dâr al-Fikr, Beirut (Lebanon), Volume 4, p. 299.
[9] al-Qurtubî, Op.Cit,
[10] al-Tabarî, Op.Cit,


Source: http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Sarh/
Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 11:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
ohh I seee :) you are reading the 'satanic verses' :) you like to read from non-islamic sources :)

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/880-alleged-satanic-verses.html

and can you please tell me who narrated the hadith? what is its status and what collection it is in?
This is what Muhammad said and changed. It doesn't get any more real than that. Muhammad said these things. What difference does it make about where I got the source? It is documented that the Prophet said and changed these verses. That doesn't bother you. It would me. And it bothered 'Abdullab enough to leave the Prophet.:?
Reply

vpb
06-10-2007, 12:04 PM
This is what Muhammad said and changed. It doesn't get any more real that that. Muhammad said these things.
that's what you want to believe but it's not true :) . It's like people who found out that their boyfriend/girlfriend has cheated on them, they see the facts, but still don't believe them. bc they don't want to.

What difference does it make about where I got the source?
it makes the difference , bc these people just paste hadiths without mentioned what hadith it is, who narrates it, the status of it nothing, and just make speculations.

just bc someone says "a hadith" , it doesn't mean that it is true, bc that hadith needs to go through analysis. and we know for example
bukhari from 300,000 hadiths, he choose only 2230 hadiths as authentic without any doubt.
so there are many hadiths which are fabricated, so that's why we ask for the status of the hadiths , for example:
Hammad ibn Zyad said, "The hypocrites have fabricated fourteen thousand hadiths. One of them was Abd Al-karim ibn abi al-awja who was hung in the time of (the Abbasi) Caliph Mahdi.While he was being hung in he said "I had fabricated four thousand hadiths in which I had made many unlawful things lawful and vice versa.".

so that's why hadiths pass the test of authenticity.

It is documented that the Prophet said and changed these verses.
what documentation?? where people twist things to make it look different? check the article above.

It would me. And it bothered 'Aldulab enough to leave the Prophet.

before we continue read the article above.
Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 12:17 PM
I read the explaination you gave. I notice that Jesus didn't have these types of deceptions with scribes as Muhammad. I know Jesus was sinless but Muhammad was not. Jesus taught forgiveness; Muhammad taught revenge Mat. 5:38 /surah 2:194/surah 18:110 I don't want to get off topic, so I'll post this else where when i get the time.
Reply

Woodrow
06-10-2007, 12:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
This is what Muhammad said and changed. It doesn't get any more real that that. Muhammad said these things. What difference does it make about where I got the source? It is documented that the Prophet said and changed these verses. That doesn't bother you. It would me. And it bothered 'Abdullab enough to leave the Prophet.:?
I can understand why you would believe that to be true. The key point in what you are looking at is: It is documented that the Prophet said and changed these verses.

Here the source is important. Anybody can say anything about anybody else. What needs to be scrutinized is the source of the statement, the person making the claim and supporting evidence.

So far the only Documentation I know of in this case is writings on anti-Islamic sites. The person who allegedly initially made the claim, was an apostate who historically seems to have never sincerely accepted Islam. Now you stated this was recorded in an Hadith. Since we are not aware of any Hadith that mentions that, it would be fair of you to tell us what Hadith you found that in.

Addendum: The Satanic Verses is Salman Rushdie's fourth novel, first published in 1988 and inspired in part by the life of Muhammad. The title refers to the Satanic Verses, an attempted interpolation in the Qur'an described by Ibn Ishaq in his biography of Muhammad (the oldest surviving text). The authenticity of these Satanic verses has been disputed by the earliest Muslim historians.[1]
Reply

Malaikah
06-10-2007, 12:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
This is what Muhammad said and changed. It doesn't get any more real than that. Muhammad said these things. What difference does it make about where I got the source? It is documented that the Prophet said and changed these verses. That doesn't bother you. It would me. And it bothered 'Abdullab enough to leave the Prophet.:?
It has been classified by Muslim scholars as a fabricated narration. Just because something is written down, doesn't mean it is real.

So, the Muslims are agreed that this event never happened.

Now would be a good time to start questioning the sources you use to gain information about Islam.

I know Jesus was sinless but Muhammad was not. Jesus taught forgiveness; Muhammad taught revenge
We will not agree on the point that Jesus was sinless. We believe he sinned just as all the other Prophets sinned.

Yes, prophets. We believe Muhammad pbuh was a prophet, not the son of God, therefore for you to compare him to someone you believe is the son of God is meaningless.

Why not compare him the Prophets of the OT? Then we will see who were bigger sinners according to your religion, the Prophets of the past, or Muhammad pbuh.

For your information, no, Muhammad was not an adulterer or murderer or drunkard as the Prophets are (wrongly) portrayed in the OT.
Reply

vpb
06-10-2007, 01:14 PM
I read the explaination you gave. I notice that Jesus didn't have these types of deceptions with scribes as Muhammad.
the problem here, is bc we can't really discuss this issue with you, bc first of all you don't know how hadiths work, how are they classified, what process do they go through, or what is the system of testing the hadith. so you assumptions or the ones on anti-islamic websites sources, are baseless and ignorant bc you/they have no knowledge about hadith, so they just copy/paste without consulting with proper sources. you haven't even checked up the biography of the disciple. lollllllll
I know Jesus was sinless but Muhammad was not.
hahaha, omg, Jesus was sinless? , but if you believe Jesus is God, how can you say for him "he is sinless", God is not tempted by evil, that he could make sins, God is perfect, he created good and evil, so he can't be tempted by it. you have problems with your belief.
but as for your statement, sister malaikah already explained. so we won't stop to discuss it further
Jesus taught forgiveness; Muhammad taught revenge Mat. 5:38 /surah 2:194/surah 18:110 I don't want to get off topic,
2:194
The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

do you have a clue, what is being talked about in this verse? don't paste stuff out of context, check out the verse before/after.
what did Jesus a.s "taught" you about opression? what should you do when somebody occupies your land, and become your opressor? should you stay, and love him? and let him take all your possesions, do whatever they want with you? please tell me what does Jesus "said" about this. and let's see how much sense it makes.

Defense is a natural thing, and people need to defend themselves.




18:110
Say: I am only a mortal like you; it is revealed to me that your god is one Allah, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord.

what does this verse got to do with revenge?


and also, please post the narrator of the hadith, it's status, and what collection does it belong to :) , you wanted to talk about that, now we have to end it properly :)
and when you tell us, we will proceed to the next "problem" with Muhammed saws :)
Reply

MustafaMc
06-10-2007, 01:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
:laugh: No, no, no, nice try though. Muhammad thought that that was what the Bible teaches; He thought that the Bible teaches that Mary was a god (one of the trinity). Let's call a spade a spade. Besides, he is quoting what Allah is supposed to be saying to Jesus. Doesn't Allah know what the Bible teaches since He wrote it ALL. You have a severe problem on hand.
I must have hit a raw nerve there, didn't I. How in the world do you know what Muhammad (pbuh) thought and besides the Quran is not what he thought up, but rather a revelation from Allah. The Quran is not based on, or a refutation of, the Bible. Rather in this case it is addressing the errors of people's practice. Nowhere does Allah in the Quran or Muhammad in the hadith associate Mary with the Trinity. The Quran does address the issue of Catholics worshipping both Mary and Jesus which you readily admit that they do. Allah did not write the Bible in any shape, fashion or form. Rather man wrote the Bible and ascribed it to Allah - a most serious sin indeed.
Reply

vpb
06-10-2007, 01:33 PM
I must have hit a raw nerve there, didn't I. How in the world do you know what Muhammad (pbuh) thought and besides the Quran is not what he thought up, but rather a revelation from Allah. The Quran is not based on, or a refutation of, the Bible. Rather in this case it is addressing the errors of people's practice. Nowhere does Allah in the Quran or Muhammad in the hadith associate Mary with the Trinity. The Quran does address the issue of Catholics worshipping both Mary and Jesus which you readily admit that they do. Allah did not write the Bible in any shape, fashion or form. Rather man wrote the Bible and ascribed it to Allah - a most serious sin indeed.
I don't know bro, she still keeps insisting that Qur'an says Mary is part of trinity, but yet, till now I couldn't find a verse that says that.

I just want to paste some of the tafir just to conclude some points:

The Disbelief of the Christians; `Isa Only called to Tawhid
Allah states that the Christians such sects as Monarchite, Jacobite and Nestorite are disbelievers, those among them who say that `Isa is Allah. Allah is far holier than what they attribute to Him. They made this claim in spite of the fact that `Isa made it known that he was the servant of Allah and His Messenger. The first words that `Isa uttered when he was still a baby in the cradle were, "I am `Abdullah (the servant of Allah).'' He did not say, "I am Allah,'' or, "I am the son of Allah.'' Rather, he said,
[إِنِّى عَبْدُ اللَّهِ ءَاتَانِىَ الْكِتَـبَ وَجَعَلَنِى نَبِيّاً]
(Verily, I am a servant of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet.) until he said,
[وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ رَبِّى وَرَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُوهُ هَـذَا صِرَطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ ]
("And verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the straight path.'') He also proclaimed to them when he was a man, after he was sent as a Prophet, commanding them to worship his Lord and their Lord, alone without partners,
[وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَابَنِى إِسْرَءِيلَ اعْبُدُواْ اللَّهَ رَبُّى وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ]
(But the Messiah said, "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.'' Verily, whosoever sets up partners with Allah...) in worship;
[فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ]
(. ..then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode.) as He will send him to the Fire and forbid Paradise for him. Allah also said;
[إِنَّ اللَّهَ لاَ يَغْفِرُ أَن يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَلِكَ لِمَن يَشَآءُ]
(Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He wills.) and,
[وَنَادَى أَصْحَـبُ النَّارِ أَصْحَـبَ الْجَنَّةِ أَنْ أَفِيضُواْ عَلَيْنَا مِنَ الْمَآءِ أَوْ مِمَّا رَزَقَكُمُ اللَّهُ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ حَرَّمَهُمَا عَلَى الْكَـفِرِينَ ]
(And the dwellers of the Fire will call to the dwellers of Paradise; "Pour on us some water or anything that Allah has provide you with.'' They will say: "Allah has forbidden both to the disbelievers.'') It is recorded in the Sahih that the Prophet had someone proclaim to the people,
«إِنَّ الْجَنَّةَ لَا يَدْخُلُهَا إِلَّا نَفْسٌ مُسْلِمَة»
(Only a Muslim soul shall enter Paradise.) In another narration,
«مُؤْمِنَة»
(Only a believing soul...) This is why Allah said that `Isa said to the Children of Israel,
[إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ وَمَا لِلظَّـلِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ]
(Verily, whosoever sets up partners with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And there are no helpers for the wrongdoers.) There is no help from Allah, nor anyone who will support or protect them from the state they will be in. Allah's statement,

[لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَـلِثُ ثَلَـثَةٍ]

4:171.
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

so we can conclude that,

1.Muhammed did not make any assumptions, or did not form conclusion based on what he thought, but every was of what got from the revelation.
2.Qur'an does not mention anywhere that Mary is part of trinity.
3.There were some other sect of Christianity at that time, so it's not only the sect of where alpiana belongs to.
4. The Qur'an is not based on refutation of the bible (as bro MustafMC said), so the key point of Qur'an is Tawheed, as I made the statement above, but seems Alpiana ignored it, I will paste it again,

7. For the importance of Tawheed is the fact itself that the Prophet Muhammed saws called on Tawheed for 13 years.



8. Qur'an from its beggining to its end calls on tawheed

Ibn Qajim Al Xhauzije says : "Every ayat (verse) of the Qur'an contains tawheed on itself , or it give arguments for the tawheed, or calls to it. Qur'an either tells us about Allah, His names and attributes, which is tawheed Asmaa ua Sifaat, or it calls on unification (Oneness of Allah) of Allah on actions while not joining partnership, which is tawheed Uluhija and Rububija, or it contains orders or forbidding things, which are from the truth and fulfilling of tawheed."

for full article: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...e-tawheed.html


I hope I was clear enough.

Reply

Phil12123
06-10-2007, 05:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
We will not agree on the point that Jesus was sinless. We believe he sinned just as all the other Prophets sinned.
You must be reading non-Christian sources, perhaps Jewish sources.

These are from the Christian source:

John 8:46 --- "Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?"

2 Cor. 5: 21 --- For He [God] made Him [Jesus] who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

1 Peter 2:
21. For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22. "Who committed no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth'';
23. who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;
24. who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness by whose stripes you were healed.

Hebrews 4:
14. Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.
15. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
16. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 3:
4. Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
5. And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.

I think that should suffice. Whether you believe them is your decision.
Reply

NoName55
06-10-2007, 06:10 PM
You must be reading non-Christian sources, perhaps Jewish sources
that reminds me; why is OT different to Jewish Texts?
Reply

Phil12123
06-10-2007, 06:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
that reminds me; why is OT different to Jewish Texts?
You mean, the order or arrangement of the books, or the content? In what way is it different?
Reply

NoName55
06-10-2007, 06:40 PM
the content
Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
I don't know bro, she still keeps insisting that Qur'an says Mary is part of trinity, but yet, till now I couldn't find a verse that says that.

I just want to paste some of the tafir just to conclude some points:

The Disbelief of the Christians; `Isa Only called to Tawhid
Allah states that the Christians such sects as Monarchite, Jacobite and Nestorite are disbelievers, those among them who say that `Isa is Allah. Allah is far holier than what they attribute to Him. They made this claim in spite of the fact that `Isa made it known that he was the servant of Allah and His Messenger. The first words that `Isa uttered when he was still a baby in the cradle were, "I am `Abdullah (the servant of Allah).'' He did not say, "I am Allah,'' or, "I am the son of Allah.'' Rather, he said,
[إِنِّى عَبْدُ اللَّهِ ءَاتَانِىَ الْكِتَـبَ وَجَعَلَنِى نَبِيّاً]
(Verily, I am a servant of Allah, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet.) until he said,
[وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ رَبِّى وَرَبُّكُمْ فَاعْبُدُوهُ هَـذَا صِرَطٌ مُّسْتَقِيمٌ ]
("And verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone). That is the straight path.'') He also proclaimed to them when he was a man, after he was sent as a Prophet, commanding them to worship his Lord and their Lord, alone without partners,
[وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَابَنِى إِسْرَءِيلَ اعْبُدُواْ اللَّهَ رَبُّى وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ]
(But the Messiah said, "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.'' Verily, whosoever sets up partners with Allah...) in worship;
[فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ]
(. ..then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode.) as He will send him to the Fire and forbid Paradise for him. Allah also said;
[إِنَّ اللَّهَ لاَ يَغْفِرُ أَن يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَلِكَ لِمَن يَشَآءُ]
(Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with Him (in worship), but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He wills.) and,
[وَنَادَى أَصْحَـبُ النَّارِ أَصْحَـبَ الْجَنَّةِ أَنْ أَفِيضُواْ عَلَيْنَا مِنَ الْمَآءِ أَوْ مِمَّا رَزَقَكُمُ اللَّهُ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ حَرَّمَهُمَا عَلَى الْكَـفِرِينَ ]
(And the dwellers of the Fire will call to the dwellers of Paradise; "Pour on us some water or anything that Allah has provide you with.'' They will say: "Allah has forbidden both to the disbelievers.'') It is recorded in the Sahih that the Prophet had someone proclaim to the people,
«إِنَّ الْجَنَّةَ لَا يَدْخُلُهَا إِلَّا نَفْسٌ مُسْلِمَة»
(Only a Muslim soul shall enter Paradise.) In another narration,
«مُؤْمِنَة»
(Only a believing soul...) This is why Allah said that `Isa said to the Children of Israel,
[إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ وَمَا لِلظَّـلِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ]
(Verily, whosoever sets up partners with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And there are no helpers for the wrongdoers.) There is no help from Allah, nor anyone who will support or protect them from the state they will be in. Allah's statement,

[لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَـلِثُ ثَلَـثَةٍ]

4:171.
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

so we can conclude that,

1.Muhammed did not make any assumptions, or did not form conclusion based on what he thought, but every was of what got from the revelation.
2.Qur'an does not mention anywhere that Mary is part of trinity.
3.There were some other sect of Christianity at that time, so it's not only the sect of where alpiana belongs to.
4. The Qur'an is not based on refutation of the bible (as bro MustafMC said), so the key point of Qur'an is Tawheed, as I made the statement above, but seems Alpiana ignored it, I will paste it again,

7. For the importance of Tawheed is the fact itself that the Prophet Muhammed saws called on Tawheed for 13 years.



8. Qur'an from its beggining to its end calls on tawheed

Ibn Qajim Al Xhauzije says : "Every ayat (verse) of the Qur'an contains tawheed on itself , or it give arguments for the tawheed, or calls to it. Qur'an either tells us about Allah, His names and attributes, which is tawheed Asmaa ua Sifaat, or it calls on unification (Oneness of Allah) of Allah on actions while not joining partnership, which is tawheed Uluhija and Rububija, or it contains orders or forbidding things, which are from the truth and fulfilling of tawheed."

for full article: http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...e-tawheed.html


I hope I was clear enough.
I am a brother bro! I have to give you credit. You have been polite. But then again, that could be cuz you thought I wasn't a brother. However, you do come off a bit condensending at times. Let me ask you a question. Did you say you used to be a Christian or were you born and raised a Muslim? How did you come to realize that Islam was for you?:?
Reply

vpb
06-10-2007, 07:08 PM
I am a brother bro! I have to give you credit. You have been polite. But then again, that could be cuz you thought I wasn't a brother.
of course, can't be as rude with women as with men.

but sometimes u are really a pain u know that? :p ;D. just joking .

Let me ask you a question. Did you say you used to be a Christian or were you born and raised a Muslim? How did you come to realize that Islam was for you?

first,

no, I was raised in a "muslim" family, where, first of all the beliefs are totally messed up, which if we would look close, the things that were done would be shirk, but I don't want to go now on judging my parents. it's not just in my family, but it's in most of the families , the majority. so you can imagine how much they know that they say "only old people have to pray 5 times a day" :) . at least u know that everyone is obligated to pray 5 times a day, but they think only old people should. so now I let u judge what type of Islam I was raised on.

second,
the country I was raised, the tolerance between religions is very high, even higher than the countries like UK,USA,Germany........
people never discuss things about religion. I was also raised in a society, where like everyone kept their religion, and didn't even bother to improve their knowledge on, or try to teach other people. which is why they know nothing about the religion. Also communism has it's own effect on their ideas about religion. (especially Islam).
So, I was basically raised in a family which they call themselves muslims, but they don't really know what they're doing.

third,
We've always knows about christianity, I would pass everyday by a church to go to my English course :p, so it wasn't a big deal really.
I have also lived with a baptist pastor for about a year, which I wasn't a good muslim, u can imagine what type I was :p, and I read and learned about both, also had the chance to learn from the pastor, but the the difference between Islam and Christian, can be seen from the moon, which one is true. :) so that's why I decided to keep on my islamic faith, and improve it.

Also, don't forget to post the things about the hadith I required, else I will assume that you just copy/pasted the claim, and you fail to discuss it further. :)
Reply

Redeemed
06-10-2007, 08:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
of course, can't be as rude with women as with men.

but sometimes u are really a pain u know that? :p ;D. just joking .

first,

no, I was raised in a "muslim" family, where, first of all the beliefs are totally messed up, which if we would look close, the things that were done would be shirk, but I don't want to go now on judging my parents. it's not just in my family, but it's in most of the families , the majority. so you can imagine how much they know that they say "only old people have to pray 5 times a day" :) . at least u know that everyone is obligated to pray 5 times a day, but they think only old people should. so now I let u judge what type of Islam I was raised on.

second,
the country I was raised, the tolerance between religions is very high, even higher than the countries like UK,USA,Germany........
people never discuss things about religion. I was also raised in a society, where like everyone kept their religion, and didn't even bother to improve their knowledge on, or try to teach other people. which is why they know nothing about the religion. Also communism has it's own effect on their ideas about religion. (especially Islam).
So, I was basically raised in a family which they call themselves muslims, but they don't really know what they're doing.

third,
We've always knows about christianity, I would pass everyday by a church to go to my English course :p, so it wasn't a big deal really.
I have also lived with a baptist pastor for about a year, which I wasn't a good muslim, u can imagine what type I was :p, and I read and learned about both, also had the chance to learn from the pastor, but the the difference between Islam and Christian, can be seen from the moon, which one is true. :) so that's why I decided to keep on my islamic faith, and improve it.

Also, don't forget to post the things about the hadith I required, else I will assume that you just copy/pasted the claim, and you fail to discuss it further. :)
Very, very interesting,:) You can see the difference from the moon. I can see the difference too - the Son is bigger than the moon:laugh: By the way, what was I supposed to post from the hadith,:exhausted :? and what would be the point if it is not neccessarily true:? :rollseyes
Reply

MustafaMc
06-10-2007, 08:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
God (Allah) will not look at anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as His Son. This is not ascribing partners to God; this is glorifying Him in the most glorious way humanly possible.
Aha! caught ya. Why do you put Allah (swt) in parnethesis and then follow with "Jesus as His Son".

Notice that most Muslims follow Allah's (swt) name with these letters which is short for Subhanahu wa ta'ala - This is an expression that Muslims use whenever the name of Allah is pronounced or written. The meaning of this expression is: "Allah is pure of having partners and He is exalted from having a son." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glossary/term.SUBHANA.html

You clearly refer to other than Allah (swt) Who has no son, or daughter, or mother or father.
Reply

vpb
06-10-2007, 08:59 PM
Very, very interesting,

You can see the difference from the moon. I can see the difference too - the Son is bigger than the moon

thank you for you comment :D
Those who read Mein Keimph , also think that they are right, but it does not neceseraly means they are right :)

By the way, what was I supposed to post from the hadith,

and what would be the point if it is not neccessarily true

the hadith that you qouted before, you need to tell me it's status, the chain narration, and the colleciton it belong to.
and the point would be, that if you can;t provide it, than don't dig somewhere where you can't manage to get out, just bc it says a hadith doesn't mean that it is true, and don't try to attack people on things which you have no knowledge of. You need first to learn about the 'isnad' system and then try to bring me hadiths here.
look at the things more open hearted, cuz it seems you just try to find a bug, (but you cant), so that u satisfy your beliefs. be open hearted and learn about Islam, from the proper sources. don't take those people's arguments, bc them too don't know anything about Islam, but they just try to twist and missuse things to make Islam look bad, but wallahi they never will, bc Allah swt revelaed the Qur'an without any doubts in it as it says:

Surah Al-Baqara
2:1. A.L.M.
2:2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

Very one on this forum knows I spoke the truth
be honest with yourself :)
Reply

NoName55
06-10-2007, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
First of all, that post wasn't directed at you and what lies? Very one on this forum knows I spoke the truth:D
when you post tripe in your posts and I question you about them;what does usully happen when you run off? it is almost alway someone else who comes to your rescue, some of your helpers have even asked me in PM to be lenient but you are making it very difficult for me to tolerate your nonsense especially since you have become far too bold in your lying claims as well as telling me, who may or may not reply to you (last time I checked it was an open-to-all forum).

I would not dream of wasting much time on dignifying your rubbish. All I do now, is to make a little comment here and there in the hope that those incharge may take notice and hopefully send you on your way. That is all!
Reply

vpb
06-11-2007, 04:44 AM
it is not my heart to associate anyone with with God. I believe in my heart of hearts that God is one and has NO partners.
so why are you saying God has a son?? when you say God has a son, you are joining him in parntership.

The fact is I just got a Qur’an, and I have been reading it. It is very ambiguous to me and full of contradictions as well
bring them on. :)

The biggest difference between Islam and the rest is that Mohammed has more followers and they're meaner.
typical evangelist statement. is Pat Robertson your relative?? :p
Reply

evangel
06-11-2007, 05:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
typical evangelist statement. is Pat Robertson your relative?? :p
Nope, just going by the verse you gave us. You know, the whole taking off our faces and twisting our heads around thing. The others never said anything like that to us.
Reply

vpb
06-11-2007, 07:52 AM
just going by the verse you gave us. You know, the whole taking off our faces and twisting our heads around thing. The others never said anything like that to us.
don't get what you are saying. can you please explain in full.
Reply

MustafaMc
06-11-2007, 11:12 AM
WHY MUST YOU STRUGGLE SO HARD TO DISCREDIT ISLAM???????
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I am not sure i can answer your question in such a way that would satisfy you.
You must have an answer of sorts, but you don't want to say. I think that your posts speak for you. You are an enemy of Islam along with Pat Robertson.
Reply

MustafaMc
06-11-2007, 11:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
I understand. That is fine. Please keep in mind; however, it is not my heart to associate anyone with with God. I believe in my heart of hearts that God is one and has NO partners.
You, as a Christian, believe that a human, Jesus, being born of a woman was at the same time Son of God and fully God. According to the Quran, this is in fact made painfully clear to be associating partners with Allah.
No one has the right to judge me without this judgment falling on them 100 fold. I promise that is truth.
I am not judging you, rather I am sharing my understanding of what Islam teaches about Christianity.

Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."

The point is that you will stand in judgement before Allah and you will be at His Mercy. From the Muslim perspective, I would not want to be in your shoes - trying to explain how God is One, yet He lived on earth as a human.
Reply

vpb
06-11-2007, 12:12 PM
From the Muslim perspective, I would not want to be in your shoes - trying to explain how God is One, yet He lived on earth as a human.
not even his socks. :p let alone his shoes.
Reply

Phil12123
06-11-2007, 07:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
You, as a Christian, believe that a human, Jesus, being born of a woman was at the same time Son of God and fully God. According to the Quran, this is in fact made painfully clear to be associating partners with Allah.
Christians believe that God (you say "Allah") IS Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet the Scriptures make it very clear that there is only ONE God. So the THREE ARE the ONE God. For us to be associating partners with GOD we would have to be saying someone OTHER THAN the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit is also God. For example, if we said Peter is God and of the same essence, substance, and nature as the Father, or as the Son, or as the Holy Spirit. THEN, and only THEN, would we be associating "partners" with GOD.

format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
The point is that you will stand in judgement before Allah and you will be at His Mercy. From the Muslim perspective, I would not want to be in your shoes - trying to explain how God is One, yet He lived on earth as a human.
And from the Christian perspective, YOU will be standing before Jesus Christ Who will judge you (John 5:22). And YOU will be explaining to HIM why you rejected His blood atonement at Calvary as payment for your sins. He will open the Book of Life and your name will not be there ("He that has the Son has life and he that has not the Son of God has not life" 1 John 5:12). He will then open the books that contain your every word, thought, and deed, and expose them all before you and the whole world to see. Then you will be cast into the Lake of Fire and be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10-15).

No, I would not want to be in YOUR shoes.
Reply

vpb
06-11-2007, 07:27 PM
Christians believe that God (you say "Allah") IS Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet the Scriptures make it very clear that there is only ONE God. So the THREE ARE the ONE God. For us to be associating partners with GOD we would have to be saying someone OTHER THAN the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit is also God. For example, if we said Peter is God and of the same essence, substance, and nature as the Father, or as the Son, or as the Holy Spirit. THEN, and only THEN, would we be associating "partners" with GOD.
this is what I would call 'adaptation'. Since you are adapted with the term of "The Father, The Son, The Holy spirit", you don't look at it as joining partnership to God anymore, but if you take Peter, as u said , than it is partnership to God. so of course it is not partnership to you saying The Father.....The holy spirit. But in fact, it is, but you are used to it, and that's why you don't accept it.

And from the Christian perspective, YOU will be standing before Jesus Christ Who will judge you (John 5:22). And YOU will be explaining to HIM why you rejected His blood atonement at Calvary as payment for your sins. He will open the Book of Life and your name will not be there ("He that has the Son has life and he that has not the Son of God has not life" 1 John 5:12). He will then open the books that contain your every word, thought, and deed, and expose them all before you and the whole world to see. Then you will be cast into the Lake of Fire and be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10-15).
Jesus a.s will not be able to help himself, let alone MustafaMC or me, or u.


5:116. And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

5:117. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.
Reply

NoName55
06-11-2007, 07:28 PM
@Phil12123: when are you getting back to these?
http://www.islamicboard.com/762337-post612.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/762361-post613.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/762363-post614.html
Reply

vpb
06-11-2007, 10:44 PM
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! If He didn't die, WHO did? And where is his dead body?
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! :p
Jesus a.s was not on the cross, so he didn't get killed. so the question of "where is his dead body", falls, bc he was not on the cross, and he was raised up in the heaven.

How did it disappear when a bunch of soldiers guarded the tomb and there was huge rock in front of it, sealed closed?
as I said, Jesus a.s was not on the cross.

Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.
ok, bring on the proof, that Jesus was exactly on the cross, and that he got crucified.
I dont want historical fact, I want scientific fact !!! So don't give me stories allright? bring me scientifical evidence.

The spirit that moved Peter to say, No, this will never happen to you, is exactly the same spirit that told Muhammad that No, it never happened to Jesus.
No, not the same.
cuz you guys not that u don't have the biographies of these disciples, but you even don't have a full biography about Jesus. so I don't want to hear about peters or pauls, cuz they have nothing to do with Jesus a.s . They didn't teach what Jesus taught.
Just bc you tell me that Peter was a fisherman, it doesn't prove to me who he was, or what he did or was he pious or what.
The bible is just one of the layers of the gospel of Q, so there is no point of me beliving on it.
Reply

MustafaMc
06-12-2007, 12:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Christians believe that God (you say "Allah") IS Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Actually, Allah has no son see Surah Ikhlas.
The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet the Scriptures make it very clear that there is only ONE God. So the THREE ARE the ONE God. For us to be associating partners with GOD we would have to be saying someone OTHER THAN the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit is also God.
By definition of Muslim and Christian we will never agree on this issue - at least this side of Judgement Day.

And from the Christian perspective, YOU will be standing before Jesus Christ Who will judge you (John 5:22). And YOU will be explaining to HIM why you rejected His blood atonement at Calvary as payment for your sins. He will open the Book of Life and your name will not be there ("He that has the Son has life and he that has not the Son of God has not life" 1 John 5:12). He will then open the books that contain your every word, thought, and deed, and expose them all before you and the whole world to see. Then you will be cast into the Lake of Fire and be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10-15).

No, I would not want to be in YOUR shoes.
I was a Christian at one point, but my perception of Truth changed over 25 years ago. The focus in my worship is not Jesus, Muhammad, or any other than the One God. I admit that I don't understand Allah's Nature, but it is inconceivable for me to imagine His need to become a human and to die on the cross for my sins. You and other Christians emphasize that there MUST be a blood atonement for sins, yet negate the ability and willingness of Allah to forgive sins of His own accord.
Reply

Keltoi
06-12-2007, 12:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! :p
Jesus a.s was not on the cross, so he didn't get killed. so the question of "where is his dead body", falls, bc he was not on the cross, and he was raised up in the heaven.


as I said, Jesus a.s was not on the cross.



ok, bring on the proof, that Jesus was exactly on the cross, and that he got crucified.
I dont want historical fact, I want scientific fact !!! So don't give me stories allright? bring me scientifical evidence.


No, not the same.
cuz you guys not that u don't have the biographies of these disciples, but you even don't have a full biography about Jesus. so I don't want to hear about peters or pauls, cuz they have nothing to do with Jesus a.s . They didn't teach what Jesus taught.
Just bc you tell me that Peter was a fisherman, it doesn't prove to me who he was, or what he did or was he pious or what.
The bible is just one of the layers of the gospel of Q, so there is no point of me beliving on it.
You want "scientific" fact that Christ died on the cross....but you don't want historical accounts? How exactly is this supposed to be achieved?
Reply

vpb
06-12-2007, 12:09 AM
You want "scientific" fact that Christ died on the cross....but you don't want historical accounts?
History is very young to remember "Jesus's crussifiction", so they wrote history based on bible. that's why I don't want "historical" evidences, I don't want stories. where we know that Bible in every field has errors, that even the historical evidences derived from Bible are not reliable. That's why we have to go back to Qur'an to check the proper history. but anyway I want scientific evidence .

How exactly is this supposed to be achieved?
bring them, if Phil is saying about the account on Qur'an
Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.
then bring your scientific proof.

ie. we have scientific proof about Pharaoh, but where is the one about Jesus a.s???
there isn't any, do u know? bc he was not crucified, he was raised in the heaven, otherwise you would find his body, untouched by insects.
Reply

Keltoi
06-12-2007, 12:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
History is very young to remember "Jesus's crussifiction", so they wrote history based on bible. that's why I don't want "historical" evidences, I don't want stories. where we know that Bible in every field has errors, that even the historical evidences derived from Bible are not reliable. That's why we have to go back to Qur'an to check the proper history. but anyway I want scientific evidence .

bring them, if Phil is saying about the account on Qur'an
then bring your scientific proof.

ie. we have scientific proof about Pharaoh, but where is the one about Jesus a.s???
there isn't any, do u know? bc he was not crucified, he was raised in the heaven, otherwise you would find his body, untouched by insects.
Well, Christians and Muslims believe Christ, body and spirit, are in Heaven. The difference is that Christians believe He was crucified and rose from the dead. If you want non-Biblical accounts of Christ's crucifiction, I believe Tacitus wrote something about the "Messiah" of the Jews being crucified and causing alot of problems. I will try to find the name of that writing and maybe find an on-line edition of it.
Reply

Redeemed
06-12-2007, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Actually, Allah has no son see Surah Ikhlas. By definition of Muslim and Christian we will never agree on this issue - at least this side of Judgement Day.

I was a Christian at one point, but my perception of Truth changed over 25 years ago. The focus in my worship is not Jesus, Muhammad, or any other than the One God. I admit that I don't understand Allah's Nature, but it is inconceivable for me to imagine His need to become a human and to die on the cross for my sins. You and other Christians emphasize that there MUST be a blood atonement for sins, yet negate the ability and willingness of Allah to forgive sins of His own accord.
I wasn't Allah's need to become human and die on the cross for our sins; it was and is our need. It is written, "Without the shedding of Blood there is no remission for sin." God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knoweldge of truth. As it is written, "If we refuse the love of the truth God sends us a strong dellusion that we might believe a lie." We Christians are not your enemies; we are the best of all friends you ever had, but you reject us, and Jesus said, "Those that reject you reject me.":cry:
Reply

Phil12123
06-12-2007, 01:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! :p
Jesus a.s was not on the cross, so he didn't get killed. so the question of "where is his dead body", falls, bc he was not on the cross, and he was raised up in the heaven.
I think you missed my point. I asked, if Jesus was not crucified, then WHO was? Islam teaches that someone took Jesus' place and was crucified in His place. My question is WHO?? And where is HIS body?? Someone died but that someone still had a dead body afterward, right? Where is that dead body? Was it not buried in what should have been Jesus' tomb, because everyone thought it was really Jesus? And how did it then disappear when a bunch of soldiers guarded the tomb and there was a huge rock in front of it, sealed closed? Your story, which you believe and stake your eternal destiny on, doesn't even make sense. Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.

format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
...cuz you guys not that u don't have the biographies of these disciples, but you even don't have a full biography about Jesus. so I don't want to hear about peters or pauls, cuz they have nothing to do with Jesus a.s . They didn't teach what Jesus taught. Just bc you tell me that Peter was a fisherman, it doesn't prove to me who he was, or what he did or was he pious or what. The bible is just one of the layers of the gospel of Q, so there is no point of me beliving on it.
What? PETER had "nothing to do with Jesus"? That's like saying Muhammad had nothing to do with Allah. What a foolish statement.

And PETER didn't teach what Jesus taught? Prove it. I hope you know that the only way you can do that is to have 1st century manuscripts of Peter's letters, authenticated to be written by him, teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught. Do you have them? Of course not. So don't make ridiculous claims that you cannot possibly substantiate.
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vpb
06-12-2007, 01:22 AM
I think you missed my point. I asked, if Jesus was not crucified, then WHO was? Islam teaches that someone took Jesus' place and was crucified in His place. My question is WHO?? And where is HIS body?? Someone died but that someone still had a dead body afterward, right? Where is that dead body? Was it not buried in what should have been Jesus' tomb, because everyone thought it was really Jesus? And how did it then disappear when a bunch of soldiers guarded the tomb and there was a huge rock in front of it, sealed closed? Your story, which you believe and stake your eternal destiny on, doesn't even make sense. Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.
We know that it was one of his enemies, but we don't know who exactly. and I don't know why do u expect Qur'an to explain everything in detail.
1.Qur'an is not a book about Christianity.
2.Qur'an was sent for Tawheed. and the whole Qur'an is about Tawheed (Oneness of Allah).
3.Qur'an touches briefly some points about other religions. or a different examples is , that out of 125,000 prophets sent , Qur'an points out only few of them.
so we know that Qur'an's main purpose is to teach the oneness of Allah, which was taught in Injeel (Bible), Tewrat(Torah), but since people altered them, Qur'an came to confirm them as Allah swt says in the Qur'an,

2:97. Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah.s will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-

Where is that dead body? Was it not buried in what should have been Jesus' tomb, because everyone thought it was really Jesus?
that body should have been buried just like all other bodies. remember, all the bodies of humans get rotten, except the body of the Prophets, but in this case Jesus a.s was raised to heaven, so we have no body here, but the body that was supposed to be on the tomb, it's like any other person's body who died in this world.
Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.
I don't know why u keep saying this, when u can't prove yourself. even if u want to prove it by using bible, you have to prove that bible has no errors, which I think you might not be able to. So on both sources (scientifically, biblically) you may fail to prove such an event about Jesus a.s.

What? PETER had "nothing to do with Jesus"? That's like saying Muhammad had nothing to do with Allah. What a foolish statement.
I said that bc this "PETER" does not teach according to what Jesus a.s taught, that's why I'm saying "has nothing to do with Jesus". whereas Muhammed saws teaches according to what Jesus taught, Moses , Noah etc etc. peace be upon all of them.

And PETER didn't teach what Jesus taught? Prove it. I hope you know that the only way you can do that is to have 1st century manuscripts of Peter's letters, authenticated to be written by him, teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught. Do you have them? Of course not. So don't make ridiculous claims that you cannot possibly substantiate.
you should check how different layers evolved from the Q Gospel, during the time when christians were treated in hostility by jews, and it was a perfect situation for the teaching of the Jesus a.s to be changed.

and please , let us not go on discussion about Bible, cuz we know what are the outcomings of such a talk.
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Redeemed
06-12-2007, 01:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
I think you missed my point. I asked, if Jesus was not crucified, then WHO was? Islam teaches that someone took Jesus' place and was crucified in His place. My question is WHO?? And where is HIS body?? Someone died but that someone still had a dead body afterward, right? Where is that dead body? Was it not buried in what should have been Jesus' tomb, because everyone thought it was really Jesus? And how did it then disappear when a bunch of soldiers guarded the tomb and there was a huge rock in front of it, sealed closed? Your story, which you believe and stake your eternal destiny on, doesn't even make sense. Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.



What? PETER had "nothing to do with Jesus"? That's like saying Muhammad had nothing to do with Allah. What a foolish statement.

And PETER didn't teach what Jesus taught? Prove it. I hope you know that the only way you can do that is to have 1st century manuscripts of Peter's letters, authenticated to be written by him, teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught. Do you have them? Of course not. So don't make ridiculous claims that you cannot possibly substantiate.
Good points!
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vpb
06-12-2007, 01:29 AM
alpiana1, hey any recent problem?? it has been a long time since u haven't brough us some problem to discuss about :p
Reply

Grace Seeker
06-12-2007, 01:54 PM
A Plea for Peace


Dear Friends,

Please allow me to share a comment on the level of discussion on this thread.

I was gone for about a week and was only able to occassionally check in. I didn't notice it so much then, but in reading through to try to catch up, I would like to say a few things to all of us here:

1) We are so far off topic that I can't believe this thread is still open. I suppose given the importance of the Oneness of Allah, and the Divinity of Christ included in the concept of the Trinity for Islam and Christisanty respectively that we can make anything fit this thread, but I find much of the discussion to stray far from the main topic of the thread.

2) But it is the attitude of the discourse that I find most discouraging. It is filled with personal attacks and counter-attacks. Little snippets are taken at others making fun of them. Post are written in what comes across not as concern for another's soul (which is what some of them claim to be), but pure anger and condemnation. The character I see here is not befitting either Christian nor Muslim. It is as if there is a verbal Jihad or Crusade taking place right in the midst of this thread. I find little I can respect of either faith presented here, including some of my own previous statements which I now regret.

People are claiming to "prove" things which they are proviing to no one accept themselves and those already in agreement with them.

People are trying to "convert" others and failing to do so lambast them with all sorts of crude comments, making me think that perhaps they really didn't care for the individual in the first place. When you love someone you don't attack them just because they don't accept that love, you continue to love anyway.

If a non-Christian, non-Muslim stumbled across this thread, why would that person be interested in pursuing either faith? I don't think they would. Certainly not because of how they see us treat one another.

3) The above comments were for all of us. The following are for my Christian brothers and sisters.

I don't know Muslim theology enough to say where love for neighbor fits into the actual practice of the faith, but we Christians ought to know better. Please, my brothers, if we can't turn the other cheek, then at least do what Jesus instructed his disciples to do when he sent them out to the villages. Let us brush the sand from our feet and walk away.



It is my hope that we can return to a more civil discussion. If Islam is a religion of peace and Christianity is a religion of love. Surely we ought to do better in our conversation than what I am observing here. This is a contentious thread and it need not be. It is possible to discuss disagrements and yet do so in a polite, caring, and respectful manner.

Peace,
Grace Seeker
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Woodrow
06-12-2007, 02:14 PM
Peace Gene,

You have posted a very thought provoking note. You are correct this has gone very far off and has become a source of anger and misconceptions to both Muslims and Christians.

You are correct, the thread is promoting neither in a good view, we have become personally angry and all that is happening is we are both presenting ourselves badly.

This thread is not showing our mutual love for God(swt) it is showing our mutual arrogance as we each try to prove the other is wrong.

Reading through this thread again It shows neither of us as loving God(swt). Any person who is neither Muslim or Christian would view this thread as a very good reason to deny either.

Both of us are driving people away from God(swt) rather than showing any value in what we believe.

I am going to do my best to refrain from any further posting of my thoughts on this thread and try to function only in my role as a moderator. I pray that this thread will become a sensible discussion and all of the personal attacks cease.
Reply

NoName55
06-12-2007, 02:17 PM
around and around we go insult after insult, yet no one (admin)seems to be noticing that or the fact that relentless preaching/promotion of something other than Islam is going on.
Satan is a master deceiver. He's deceived you into thinking you are ON the Straight Path, when in reality you are on the Broad Way that leads to destruction
I posted Surah Fatiha in a soofi thread implying/hinting that I preferred Kalamulla to goofy speech of innovators. and it got deleted by someone called LIStaff, yet these few people call Muhammad RasulAllah devil and all manner of filthy accusations are being levelled against islam as well as actions of deviants with Islamic names are being attributed to Islaam.
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Phil12123
06-12-2007, 02:20 PM
Some very good thoughts, Grace Seeker. Sometimes we can't see what we are doing until we step back and look at it all like you did after a period of absence. The New Testament standard is to "speak the truth in love" (Eph. 4:15). Not sure if there is something comparable in the Quran, but I think everyone can agree with that NT standard. Right? I for one apologize if the truth (as I see it) was not spoken in love.
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Phil12123
06-12-2007, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I am going to do my best to refrain from any further posting of my thoughts on this thread and try to function only in my role as a moderator. I pray that this thread will become a sensible discussion and all of the personal attacks cease.
Woodrow, I have enjoyed your posts and comments and would be disappointed if you refrained from any further posting. Your posts have been informative and challenging and certainly not of the nature spoken of by Gene. In fact, when I've been in a discussion with another Muslim, I would think to myself, where's Woodrow? HE would understand what I'm trying to say (even though he might not agree with me). We need your voice of sanity here....
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NoName55
06-12-2007, 02:54 PM
Suck up to him yet keep referring to his religion as deception of the devil. very clever indeed! Lets see if it works
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Keltoi
06-12-2007, 03:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
Suck up to him yet keep referring to his religion as deception of the devil. very clever indeed! Lets see if it works
The same way Muslims keep referring to Christianity as a religion of deception, it does go both ways. I wish both sides would stop casting judgement on whose religion is "false". We aren't going to persuade each other of anything.
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vpb
06-12-2007, 04:01 PM
The same way Muslims keep referring to Christianity as a religion of deception, it does go both ways. I wish both sides would stop casting judgement on whose religion is "false". We aren't going to persuade each other of anything.
2:20. So if they dispute with thee, say: "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah.s sight are (all) His servants.

so our duty (muslims), is only to convey the message, and then what u do with it, it's not our problem. that is between u and Allah az.
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Keltoi
06-12-2007, 04:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
2:20. So if they dispute with thee, say: "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah.s sight are (all) His servants.

so our duty (muslims), is only to convey the message, and then what u do with it, it's not our problem. that is between u and Allah az.
The reverse is also true, although I'm not here to promote any message.
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vpb
06-12-2007, 04:13 PM
The reverse is also true
what do u mean, the reverse is also true?
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NoName55
06-12-2007, 04:16 PM
I've just seen graceseekeers two faces, in the past he told me not to pick on his brother in faith alpiana, despite that I kept praising him, giving reps as I thought he was a brother in humanity.

now he is disapproving my posts and getting angrier.
To continue in this fashion of conversation is simply rudeness not becoming either Muslim nor Christian.
just gave me bad rep for http://www.islamicboard.com/764173-post708.html

I'll say my adieu until this forum becomes moderated by the owners and staff and until they are able to stop trinitarians from dictatating as to who may post or not post
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Grace Seeker
06-12-2007, 04:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
I've just seen graceseekeers two faces, in the past he told me not to pick on his brother in faith alpiana, despite that I kept praising him, giving reps as I thought he was a brother in humanity.

now he is disapproving my posts and getting angrier.

just gave me bad rep for http://www.islamicboard.com/764173-post708.html

I'll say my adieu until this forum becomes moderated by the owners and staff and until they are able to stop trinitarians from dictatating as to who may post or not post

My two faces are apparent to anyone who read my post on the previous page. And I will give bad reps to any one (Christian, Muslim, or otherwise) who continues to perpatuate the contentiousness with which this thread has become infected.
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vpb
06-12-2007, 04:39 PM
Crusades , crusades, crusades... .:skeleton::skeleton::raging::raging::hiding::hidi ng::offended::offended::offended:

:p,

No need to give bad reps, "Jesus said to love you enemy "
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Grace Seeker
06-12-2007, 04:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
Crusades , crusades, crusades... .:skeleton::skeleton::raging::raging::hiding::hidi ng::offended::offended::offended:

:p,

No need to give bad reps, "Jesus said to love you enemy "

That's my point. We are not doing a very good job of even loving our nieghbors (which I consider you all to be).

While we may disagree over theology, we ought to be able to agree on how to show respect for one another. Show to others at least as much respect as you would like to be shown to you.
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vpb
06-12-2007, 05:12 PM
ok, before I close the case, and decide who's guilty, anyone wants to add anything??
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Muslim Woman
06-13-2007, 01:55 AM
:sl:


a request to all:

I have noticed that some participants tell in the forum who are sending them pm & what was the message. I think , Private matter must be kept in private .


if u don't want to receive pm from anyone , just close down the option or block the specific person. But , in public , we must not disclose what other participants sent u in private .

I got bad rep from my Muslim bro .....i was a little bit shocked .....but we must not disclose name ....it's my opinion.
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Redeemed
06-13-2007, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:


a request to all:

I have noticed that some participants tell in the forum who are sending them pm & what was the message. I think , Private matter must be kept in private .


if u don't want to receive pm from anyone , just close down the option or block the specific person. But , in public , we must not disclose what other participants sent u in private .

I got bad rep from my Muslim bro .....i was a little bit shocked .....but we must not disclose name ....it's my opinion.
Amen to that:thumbs_up
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Woodrow
06-13-2007, 04:31 AM
All of the posts not addressing the topic of the "Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?"



are being either deleted or moved to:

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ement-sin.html

Please continue the discussing there. This thread is being temporarily locked until all post not related to the topic are moved to where ever they belong.
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NoName55
06-15-2007, 01:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:


a request to all:

I have noticed that some participants tell in the forum who are sending them pm & what was the message. I think , Private matter must be kept in private .


if u don't want to receive pm from anyone , just close down the option or block the specific person. But , in public , we must not disclose what other participants sent u in private .

I got bad rep from my Muslim bro .....i was a little bit shocked .....but we must not disclose name ....it's my opinion.
we have staff to moderate our posts if and when we cross over bounderies set by them. no one else has any business telling anyone in PM, how to or what to post, esp. someone who plays all holy in public, then menacing in private.

any how you have made alpiana happy, but I have no such need to seek approval of his ilk for I seek only to serve Allah

wasalaam alaikum to Believers and seekers
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Muslim Woman
06-15-2007, 01:40 AM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
....any how you have made alpiana happy, but I have no such need to seek approval of his ilk for I seek only to serve Allah

wasalaam alaikum to Believers and seekers
bro , i m very sorry if hurt ur feelings. Believe me , i was thinking of the request since few days .

May be , u won't believe , but i did not even notice that it was u who mentioned about the pm here , otherwise i would have made the request elsewhere.

We must not have any hard feeling about personal disagreement ....if i made any mistake regarding my religion , u r most welcome to correct me openly . I will thank u sincerely .

May Allah forgive me if i m doing anything against Islam.
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NoName55
06-15-2007, 01:53 AM
Salaam alaikum Sister.
I do have to, and do believe you, wasalam
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Muslim Woman
06-15-2007, 02:07 AM
:w:


format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
Salaam alaikum Sister.
I do have to, and do believe you, wasalam
thanks bro :D

Jazak Allah

no more hard feelings , pl. Take care & Allah Hafiz.
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MustafaMc
06-19-2007, 11:42 AM
Copied from Re: "Views on Atonement for Sin."
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
Father, Son and the Holy Ghost:)
Not to be disrespectful, but what about "FaSoHo" as an abbreviation?:? I think it conveys the Christian concept better than God or Allah. The reason being that Muslims definitely do not equate Jesus or the Holy Spirit with the One God, Allah. Although there is only one God, the concept or understanding differs. When we Muslims say "God", we have a mental concept that is different from what comes to a Christian's mind when they hear "God". Other than implying the existence of offspring, I believe Muslims would prefer that Christians use "Father" when referring to God - at least we would both be talking apples instead of one saying apples and the other hearing oranges.
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Keltoi
06-19-2007, 12:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Copied from Re: "Views on Atonement for Sin." Not to be disrespectful, but what about "FaSoHo" as an abbreviation?:? I think it conveys the Christian concept better than God or Allah. The reason being that Muslims definitely do not equate Jesus or the Holy Spirit with the One God, Allah. Although there is only one God, the concept or understanding differs. When we Muslims say "God", we have a mental concept that is different from what comes to a Christian's mind when they hear "God". Other than implying the existence of offspring, I believe Muslims would prefer that Christians use "Father" when referring to God - at least we would both be talking apples instead of one saying apples and the other hearing oranges.
From a Christian perspective, when we say God we visualize differently than Muslims, that is true. FaSoHo just doesn't sound good in a song...another issue that we don't share...:D
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MustafaMc
06-19-2007, 12:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
From a Christian perspective, when we say God we visualize differently than Muslims, that is true. FaSoHo just doesn't sound good in a song...another issue that we don't share...:D
I agree with you about the sounding odd, but by the same token it does convey the concept that we Muslims find odd.

Yes, I really miss the songs of Christianity such as "Amazing Grace", "Mansion on a Hilltop", "Standing on the Promises", "Rock of Ages", "How Great Thou Art", "What a Friend We Have in Jesus", etc. I remember - even after 25 years - getting spiritually uplifted when singing those songs.
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Grace Seeker
06-19-2007, 12:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Copied from Re: "Views on Atonement for Sin." Not to be disrespectful, but what about "FaSoHo" as an abbreviation?:? I think it conveys the Christian concept better than God or Allah. The reason being that Muslims definitely do not equate Jesus or the Holy Spirit with the One God, Allah. Although there is only one God, the concept or understanding differs. When we Muslims say "God", we have a mental concept that is different from what comes to a Christian's mind when they hear "God". Other than implying the existence of offspring, I believe Muslims would prefer that Christians use "Father" when referring to God - at least we would both be talking apples instead of one saying apples and the other hearing oranges.

You say that Muslims may prefer that we use "Father" when referring to God. But do you really want me to start talking of Allah the Father? It doesn't describe Allah's fullness does it, anymore than the one name of Allah would be true to your experience. When I say God I mean so much more than just Father. To speak of God as just the Father and then add Jesus and the Holy Spirit would be like to make one God into three (something I think you actually understand we really don't believe).
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Redeemed
06-19-2007, 03:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Copied from Re: "Views on Atonement for Sin." Not to be disrespectful, but what about "FaSoHo" as an abbreviation?:? I think it conveys the Christian concept better than God or Allah. The reason being that Muslims definitely do not equate Jesus or the Holy Spirit with the One God, Allah. Although there is only one God, the concept or understanding differs. When we Muslims say "God", we have a mental concept that is different from what comes to a Christian's mind when they hear "God". Other than implying the existence of offspring, I believe Muslims would prefer that Christians use "Father" when referring to God - at least we would both be talking apples instead of one saying apples and the other hearing oranges.
Listen, you are inadvertently using the trinity concept as an excuse, because it is built into Islam, and that is what makes your religion treacherous. We believe in only one God. It is Muhammad that is trying to tell us Christians what we believe, and he doesn’t have a clue what we born again believers know about God, because he was never born again. We do not ascribe to God partners like Muhammad states. He is accusing us Christians of doing what he does so that the attention is off him. He ascribes himself as a partner. That is why you confess Muhammad as Allah’s spokesman. You must do that to be saved in your Shahadad or have a chance at salvation. We ascribe no partners or prophets to God as Muslims do. So please stop accusing us falsely of blasphemous heresies. You have a body, spirit and a soul does that mean you are ascribing partners unto yourself? Besides, you tell us that God is powerful and merciful enough to forgive us without Jesus’ holy blood being shed. According to your way of thinking, God is powerful enough to have written his message in our hearts without the need of a flesh and blood prophet such as Muhammad to convey the message of God and he has, or he could have sent spiritual beings to deliver it such as angles. You are so blinded by the trinity concept that it keeps you from seeing the only hope you have - the hope of glory - Jesus. Furthermore, you do insult the spirit of grace and Jesus by calling him just a prophet. He is above all earthly and heavenly powers; he is the King of kings and the Prophet of all prophets. He is the Son of the living God. Stop getting caught into biology and understand it in the flesh, because God cannot be understood through human reasoning and logic in the confines of time and space. In love and with all due respect, you error greatly by not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God.
You are loved :) and I hope I am not coming on too strong. I am intense I know, but I mean not to be offensive.
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Phil12123
06-19-2007, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Yes, I really miss the songs of Christianity such as "Amazing Grace", "Mansion on a Hilltop", "Standing on the Promises", "Rock of Ages", "How Great Thou Art", "What a Friend We Have in Jesus", etc. I remember - even after 25 years - getting spiritually uplifted when singing those songs.
Then HOW could you just toss all that away??? Certainly the words of those songs must have meant something as you were singing them. I cannot imagine you being truly born again and trusting in Jesus as Savior and Lord and then casting that all away. Did you really do that?
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vpb
06-19-2007, 03:31 PM
blood prophet such as Muhammad to convey the message of God and he has, or he could have sent spiritual beings to deliver it such as angles.
6:8. They say: "Why is not an angel sent down to him?" If we did send down an angel, the matter would be settled at once, and no respite would be granted them.

6:9. If We had made it an angel, We should have sent him as a man, and We should certainly have caused them confusion in a matter which they have already covered with confusion.




11:12. Perchance thou mayest (feel the inclination) to give up a part of what is revealed unto thee, and thy heart feeleth straitened lest they say, "Why is not a treasure sent down unto him, or why does not an angel come down with him?" But thou art there only to warn! It is Allah that arrangeth all affairs!
11:13. Or they may say, "He forged it," Say, "Bring ye then ten suras forged, like unto it, and call (to your aid) whomsoever ye can, other than Allah.- If ye speak the truth!




We believe in only one God.
Please can u show me a single religious book were Christianity is included in the category of Monotheistic religions.



It is Muhammad that is trying to tell us Christians what we believe, and he doesn’t have a clue what we born again believers know about God, because he was never born again
Even youself u don't know what you believe in. If you would meet the old chrisitans they would consider you deviated.



That is why you confess Muhammad as Allah’s spokesman. You must do that to be saved in your Shahadad or have a chance at salvation.
We have discussed this. But you are not willing to understand, or you didn't read my posts.

We ascribe no partners or prophets to God as Muslims do.
;D;D;D . please don't talk anymore ;D;D;D . hahaha .

So please stop accusing us falsely of blasphemous heresies.
Everyone in this world knows that chrisitans believe Jesus is son of God, and from islamic point of view, that is joining partnership, bc we believe God has no son , no partners.

Jesus. Furthermore, you do insult the spirit of grace and Jesus by calling him just a prophet. He is above all earthly and heavenly powers; he is the King of kings and the Prophet of all prophets. He is the Son of the living God. Stop getting caught into biology and understand it in the flesh, because God cannot be understood through human reasoning and logic in the confines of time and space. In love and with all due respect, you error greatly by not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God.
Actually Jesus would me super-offended if He would hear what you said about him. Let alone us that we are offended when you distort things.


alpiana, what is the matter with you? I don't see any christian here make such statements as u do. you just claim some things which nobody has ever claimed before for 1400 years. lollll ;D
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Muslim Woman
06-19-2007, 03:41 PM
:sl:



alapiana1: We ascribe no partners or prophets to God as Muslims do.



format_quote Originally Posted by vpb

. please don't talk anymore . hahaha .


heheheheheheheheh , another funny joke :p


thanks for pointing this out....i overlooked it
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Woodrow
06-19-2007, 03:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
Listen, you are inadvertently using the trinity concept as an excuse, because it is built into Islam, and that is what makes your religion treacherous. We believe in only one God. It is Muhammad that is trying to tell us Christians what we believe, and he doesn’t have a clue what we born again believers know about God, because he was never born again. We do not ascribe to God partners like Muhammad states. He is accusing us Christians of doing what he does so that the attention is off him. He ascribes himself as a partner. That is why you confess Muhammad as Allah’s spokesman. You must do that to be saved in your Shahadad or have a chance at salvation. We ascribe no partners or prophets to God as Muslims do. So please stop accusing us falsely of blasphemous heresies. You have a body, spirit and a soul does that mean you are ascribing partners unto yourself? Besides, you tell us that God is powerful and merciful enough to forgive us without Jesus’ holy blood being shed. According to your way of thinking, God is powerful enough to have written his message in our hearts without the need of a flesh and blood prophet such as Muhammad to convey the message of God and he has, or he could have sent spiritual beings to deliver it such as angles. You are so blinded by the trinity concept that it keeps you from seeing the only hope you have - the hope of glory - Jesus. Furthermore, you do insult the spirit of grace and Jesus by calling him just a prophet. He is above all earthly and heavenly powers; he is the King of kings and the Prophet of all prophets. He is the Son of the living God. Stop getting caught into biology and understand it in the flesh, because God cannot be understood through human reasoning and logic in the confines of time and space. In love and with all due respect, you error greatly by not knowing the Scriptures or the power of God.
You are loved :) and I hope I am not coming on too strong. I am intense I know, but I mean not to be offensive.
Sadly you have missed the entire concept of Islam. The Christian view of Jesus(as) is a human desire to form God(swt) into his own image. It is a very false image. However, it is a very dangerous concept as the warmth from feeling that you now know God(swt) personally, has removed your ability to worship Allah(swt) as the divine diety He is.

Perhaps you are content in the warmth of worshiping a feeling. But, like all things Allah(swt) is just and he has given you the choice to worship Him or to enjoy the contentment of false security,

I will say that your words on this forum have been very beneficial in helping others understand why so many of us have left Christianity and have left the errors and found the Truth of Islam. For that I thank you as reading your errors has done much to solidify our beliefs and help us strengthen areas in which we have been weak in.

Yes you are very much loved as a Brother in Humanity and it is our sincere desire that you will awaken from your sleep.
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Muslim Woman
06-19-2007, 03:49 PM
Salaam/ peace ;


format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
..... you do insult the spirit of grace and Jesus by calling him just a prophet. He is above all earthly and heavenly powers;
i m afraid , may be in future , Christians will start claiming that Jesus (p) is above God.
:omg: :omg: :omg: :omg:
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vpb
06-19-2007, 03:54 PM
2:136. Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)."

I (vpb) say we believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)
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MuhammadRizan
06-19-2007, 04:10 PM
:sl:

hmmmm...

Since Islam is completed, we already have a clearer information.

Allah is God the one in only, same god since the beginning of humanity till eternity.

Jesus is mere Prophet and messenger,never got crucified,yes jesus is messiah because he will kill dajjal.

Holy spirit is Gabriel.

Christian and muslim will never walk in the same road here.

Those holywar and jihad in the past is political..but we must consider who wage war first.

When muslim start the war for worldly reason, the jihad is unjustified.
when muslim are attacked then jihad is justified(with rules of course).

yes muslim and christian can live together happily as long we respect each other,i mean honestly respect each other.

i dont know about another country, here in Malaysia muslim and christian live together i can say quite happy, until lately..
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vpb
06-19-2007, 04:12 PM
:sl:

just to put up a clarification.

holy war IS NOT jihad

jihad IS NOT holy war
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MuhammadRizan
06-19-2007, 04:32 PM
:sl:

my bad:phew

during crusade christian called it holy war.
when muslim engaged in war we will declare jihad(strive till the end).

jihad and holy war has different meaning.:statisfie
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Phil12123
06-19-2007, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
holy war IS NOT jihad

jihad IS NOT holy war
This is entirely off-topic, but why don't you define what they ARE.
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vpb
06-19-2007, 06:44 PM
This is entirely off-topic, but why don't you define what they ARE.
jihad means to strive/struggle, and when muslims talk about jihad, it may be two types of jihad, jihad of the nafs (struggle against your ego) ie. (struggling not to do something haram, not going back to sleep when you wake up to go to pray fajr prayer), muslim do all the time 24/7 jihad with their nafs. and jihad by the sword as we may call it, were muslims struggle against opression/occupation from the enemy.

so jihad has nothing to do with holy war, this is just given to us by crusaders, as brother MuhammadRizan explained but seems that u don't pay attention to our posts.

during crusade christian called it holy war.
when muslim engaged in war we will declare jihad(strive till the end).

jihad and holy war has different meaning.

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Trumble
06-19-2007, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
.. and jihad by the sword as we may call it, were muslims struggle against opression/occupation from the enemy.
So the muslim conquests of the Middle East, Persia, Spain etc would not be considered 'jihad' then? Would they be considered 'holy war'?

BTW as has been said this IS hopelessly off-topic; could somebody move it to another thread?
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vpb
06-19-2007, 07:31 PM
So the muslim conquests of the Middle East, Persia, Spain etc would not be considered 'jihad' then? Would they be considered 'holy war'?
brother Fisabililah explained in one of the threads about the thing with Islam spreading and the conditions when the war starts. I'll try to find the link. bear in mind that muslims did not have the "convert or you're dead"
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vpb
06-19-2007, 07:39 PM
here's the link :

http://www.islamicboard.com/759287-post49.html
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Trumble
06-19-2007, 07:59 PM
Who mentioned 'conversion'? The conquests happened whether anybody chose to convert or not.

So what options did the muslims give to these oppressive governments?

The government had one of the 3 choices mentioned above.

1) They could either accept islaam and become brothers and sisters in faith, the muslims would allow these people to keep their land and wealth etc. But at the same time they would have to rule with the justice of Islaam. This would give safety to those who wanted to accept islaam within the nation because no-one could harm them if they wanted to accept the truth.

2) They could pay Jizya [a small tax] and this would be used to strengthen the security of the state, and also to help the needy etc. The benefits with this tax would be that, the people who lived in the state - they would keep their land, wealth, their honor and blood would be protected - which means their oppressive rulers can't harm them no more, and if anyone waged war against them - the muslims would fight on their behalf.

Compare this to the oppressive rulers before who would tax the people heavily, take over their lands, take their wealth, even harm them physically and take away their honor because all these people wanted was this life, they wanted to keep their empire so keeping the poor - weak would make them feel superior and feel less under a threat.

3) Or the war would take place. The muslims would actually tell the enemy that within 3 days the opposing government has to make a decision. If they don't accept either terms 1 or 2, they will be fought against. This gave the enemy time to think carefully and the muslims trustworthiness meant that they weren't ready to be attacked at any moment, rather the muslims would fight only when they had said so, unlike other enemies who may have done a surprise attack without notice.

The muslims would fight the government until the muslims had authority in the land, and then the justice would be set for the public. 1400yrs ago, if a nation took over a land - the people there would become slaves of the rulers. However, when islaam had authority the people were still free and could either pay Jizya (option 2) or become muslim without the threat of being killed.
So in other words, if a government was believed to be "oppressive" (which seems to mean anybody who wasn't muslim already) they were given an ultimatum to either submit to muslim rule or pay-up. If they did neither, it was war. So, according to your distinction, was the war on those who chose not to submit to such intimidation "holy war", "jihad", or neither?
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vpb
06-19-2007, 08:04 PM
So, according to your distinction, was the war on those who chose not to submit to such intimidation "holy war", "jihad", or neither?
certainly not holy war, bc there is no such thing as holy war in Islam, but wether it was jihad or not, I don't know. I am not competent to speak, I fear I may speak the wrong thing. but maybe someone here who knows may answer your question. We can't give the answer just based on our opinions. Need to base it on Quranic verses or hadith. So again, maybe someone here knows better and can answer u'r question.
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vpb
06-19-2007, 08:06 PM
Jihad

Other Commonly Used Spellings: JIHAAD
It is an Arabic word the root of which is Jahada, which means to strive for a better way of life. The nouns are Juhd, Mujahid, Jihad, and Ijtihad. The other meanings are: endeavor, strain, exertion, effort, diligence, fighting to defend one's life, land, and religion.
Jihad should not be confused with Holy War; the latter does not exist in Islam nor will Islam allow its followers to be involved in a Holy War. The latter refers to the Holy War of the Crusaders.
Jihad is not a war to force the faith on others, as many people think of it. It should never be interpreted as a way of compulsion of the belief on others, since there is an explicit verse in the Qur'an that says:"There is no compulsion in religion" Al-Qur'an: Al-Baqarah (2:256).
Jihad is not a defensive war only, but a war against any unjust regime. If such a regime exists, a war is to be waged against the leaders, but not against the people of that country. People should be freed from the unjust regimes and influences so that they can freely choose to believe in Allah.
Not only in peace but also in war Islam prohibits terrorism, kidnapping, and hijacking, when carried against civilians. Whoever commits such violations is considered a murderer in Islam, and is to be punished by the Islamic state. during wars, Islam prohibits Muslim soldiers from harming civilians, women, children, elderly, and the religious men like priests and rabies. It also prohibits cutting down trees and destroying civilian constructions.



Source
Jihad is not a defensive war only, but a war against any unjust regime. If such a regime exists, a war is to be waged against the leaders, but not against the people of that country. People should be freed from the unjust regimes and influences so that they can freely choose to believe in Allah.
I think this one answers your question.


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Redeemed
06-19-2007, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:



alapiana1: We ascribe no partners or prophets to God as Muslims do.






heheheheheheheheh , another funny joke :p


thanks for pointing this out....i overlooked it
You guys are cute. And have a wonderful sense of humor. Which I do appreciate, but one day you will see this is not a laughing matter for two reasons. 1. What is funny about my going to hell, because I can't see Islam as the truth or right way to salvation or the way you do? 2. What is funny if you go to hell, because you have forsaken true life to embrace a big lie or you just won't come and taste to see that the Lord is good. I know I am getting to you when you laugh like this, because even the fact that you make a joke about something so serious, shows that you are not in touch with God spiritually, but I really do love you guys and pray for you.:cry:
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Philosopher
06-19-2007, 08:51 PM
This thread has gone off topic. But to answer the question:

1.) Christian believe the Trinity is the way to heaven.
2.) Muslims believe the Trinity is an abomination/massive sin.

3.) Atheists believe that the Trinity is logically impossible and is another idea stolen from past pagan trinitarian dogmas.
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Woodrow
06-19-2007, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by alapiana1
You guys are cute. And have a wonderful sense of humor. Which I do appreciate, but one day you will see this is not a laughing matter for two reasons. 1. What is funny about my going to hell, because I can't see Islam as the truth or right way to salvation or the way you do? 2. What is funny if you go to hell, because you have forsaken true life to embrace a big lie or you just won't come and taste to see that the Lord is good. I know I am getting to you when you laugh like this, because even the fact that you make a joke about something so serious, shows that you are not in touch with God spiritually, but I really do love you guys and pray for you.:cry:
It is simply a symptom that all possible discussions about the trinity have been exhausted.

Member Philosopher has summed up all that can be said.

Once a thread goes to its limits of valid discussion, nonsense tends to set in as nothing more can be said.

We have told you the truth. You refuse to believe it. There is no point in trying to force you into believing. The choice is yours. We have no desire to control that, as faith accepted without belief is worthless.
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vpb
06-19-2007, 09:00 PM
You guys are cute. And have a wonderful sense of humor. Which I do appreciate, but one day you will see this is not a laughing matter for two reasons. 1. What is funny about my going to hell, because I can't see Islam as the truth or right way to salvation or the way you do? 2. What is funny if you go to hell, because you have forsaken true life to embrace a big lie or you just won't come and taste to see that the Lord is good. I know I am getting to you when you laugh like this, because even the fact that you make a joke about something so serious, shows that you are not in touch with God spiritually, but I really do love you guys and pray for you.
You have your way of life, I have mine :)
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vpb
06-19-2007, 09:09 PM
alpiana, have u ever considered the option that it can be exact opposite of what u'r saying?
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Trumble
06-19-2007, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Philosopher
Atheists believe that the Trinity is logically impossible and is another idea stolen from past pagan trinitarian dogmas.
I am an atheist (sort of) and I don't think it is logically impossible at all. I don't believe there is a Trinity as I don't believe there is a God, but I have no problem with the concept, wherever it might originate from.

I have rather more of a problem with the monopoly on the truth concept. No folks, nobody has told anybody "the truth". Just what you believe to be the truth. You are, of course, all wrong. :D
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vpb
06-19-2007, 09:26 PM
I am an atheist (sort of)
;D;D;D;D
a buthist
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Trumble
06-19-2007, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by vpb
;D;D;D;D
a buthist
Yup. Most Buddhists are, in fact, atheists in that we don't believe in a God. The "sort of" is there as the modern popular concept of an 'atheist' is that they deny all religion, but that is not actually what the word means. The Buddha himself was, I suppose, what we would today call agnostic; it didn't matter to him whether there was a God or not as if there was he/she/it would still be subject to the same laws of cause and effect, suffering and rebirth as everything else. He specifically denied the existence of a creator God.
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Phil12123
06-19-2007, 09:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Yup. Most Buddhists are, in fact, atheists in that we don't believe in a God. The "sort of" is there as the modern popular concept of an 'atheist' is that they deny all religion, but that is not actually what the word means. The Buddha himself was, I suppose, what we would today call agnostic; it didn't matter to him whether there was a God or not as if there was he/she/it would still be subject to the same laws of cause and effect, suffering and rebirth as everything else. He specifically denied the existence of a creator God.
Are there any threads about Buddhism, like "Questions About Buddhism Answered by a Buddhist"? I was wondering the connection between Buddhism and Hinduism and how Buddha ended up believing in NO god if he was ever a part of Hinduism with its millions of gods.

Of course, HERE, that would be WAY off topic!
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MustafaMc
06-19-2007, 10:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
You say that Muslims may prefer that we use "Father" when referring to God. But do you really want me to start talking of Allah the Father?
No, that sounds odd, too. I was just making the point that the "Father" concept in Christianity most closely approximates our concept of Allah. We don't have a concept of Allah having a Son or ever existing in human form and we don't have a concept of Allah dwelling inside us through "baptism of the Holy Spirit".
It doesn't describe Allah's fullness does it, anymore than the one name of Allah would be true to your experience.
Yes, the other descriptive (Merciful, Compassionate, Just, Wise, All Hearing, etc) names of Allah give us a better understanding of Him than to just use Allah.

When I say God I mean so much more than just Father. To speak of God as just the Father and then add Jesus and the Holy Spirit would be like to make one God into three (something I think you actually understand we really don't believe).
Yes, I understand that you don't believe that, but from the Muslim perspective that is exactly what we see.
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Trumble
06-19-2007, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Are there any threads about Buddhism, like "Questions About Buddhism Answered by a Buddhist"? I was wondering the connection between Buddhism and Hinduism and how Buddha ended up believing in NO god if he was ever a part of Hinduism with its millions of gods.

Of course, HERE, that would be WAY off topic!
Yup... I started one a while ago. I'll drag it up and answer your question there.
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MustafaMc
06-19-2007, 11:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Phil12123
Then HOW could you just toss all that away??? Certainly the words of those songs must have meant something as you were singing them. I cannot imagine you being truly born again and trusting in Jesus as Savior and Lord and then casting that all away. Did you really do that?
I understand your perspective. I would feel the same way towards someone who apostatized from Islam. You may question whether I was ever "born again and trusted Jesus as Saviour and Lord", but until I was 21 years old and a senior in college I felt that I was a sincere Christian. You may even snicker and laugh at me as others have done, but, yes, I "cast that all away" and chose the simplicity of Islam with the fundamental belief in One God.

Yes, the words in those Christian songs meant a lot to me and to a large extent many of them still do. I don't remember all of the words, but I can still sing them to myself in the confines of my mind. When I hear "How Great Thou Art", I want to shout, "Glory to God". When I hear "Amazing Grace", it brings tears to my eyes that God showed even me a lowly sinner the Truth. When I hear "Mansion on a Hilltop", I have the same joy (but perhaps less certainty) I felt as a Christian.
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Woodrow
06-19-2007, 11:50 PM
Although most of my Christian days were spent as a Catholic I was from the days when the mass was still said in Latin and the Sunday High Mass was a Gregorian Mass. I still can remember the old Gregorian Chants and the beauty they held. Later when I decided Catholicism was in Error and I began searching. Oddly all of the hymns and singing in the non-Catholic churches turned me off. I can attribute that to my hearing problems and many forms of music cause me to have very severe headaches and I can not understand the words.

However, now I have discovered nasheeds and the non-instrumental ones I can understand perfectly and the words actually bring tears to me from their beauty. I never tire of them and although they are now just about the only sounds I can hear clearly, I don't feel any need to hear anything else and I feel blessed that my partial deafness blocks out other sounds.
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