format_quote Originally Posted by
rav
Shalom,
I would initially like to thank you; Fi_Sabbilillah, for your detailed and interesting post. I am still left with a few questions however, so I am hoping that you could address them. I will list them so they can be easily organized into separate inquiries.
I'll try my best, i'm not that knowledgable at all so please don't think that. Inshaa Allaah (God willing) i will try to address them as much as i can however.
By the way i don't like debates either, so we won't get into that.
The first thing we need to understand is that Allaah has created every human being into the state of Fitrah [the natural disposition.]
The Fitrah - Allaah has created us all upon the fitrah [the natural disposition.] Our fitrah is to understand the concept of good and bad, believe in One God and His worship, so if someone was to force you to hit someone when you were a child, you would know that it's evil, since Allaah has created you in the state of knowing the difference between good/bad, and that others are aware of what you do.
However, as time progresses - your fitrah can be altered depending on the society you live in. I.e. In a country where violence is more of the norm, you may be taught that hitting someone is okay. The first time you try to hit someone, you'll have an urge not to hit the person, because your fitrah tells you otherwise. But without true divine guidance, you don't have a solid basis to tell you that what you're doing is the wrong thing.
This is why Divine Revelation is required. Divine Revelation is the Guideline, and this fits in with your natural disposition hand in hand. I.e. If someone tells you to hit so and so, you might say NO! They'll ask why? You'll then bring proof from the Divine Guidance;
The Messenger of God (peace be upon him) said:
"A Muslim is the one from whose hands and tongue other Muslims are safe." [Recorded in Tirmidhi]
Now you have a solid basis to tell the person why you won't hit the innocent person, and they can't object if they accept God and His Messenger, and even if their fitrah is intact. You have a foundation to stand on, and your morals are equal since you have something you can agree on together without dispute. And Allaah Almighty knows best.
Why Prophet Noah was sent to his people
Prophet Noah was sent to his people around 10 generations after Prophet Adam. The religion of Adam was the same as ALL the Prophets of Allaah, of pure monotheism. However, Allaah had to send Prophet Noah to his people after these 10 generations because polytheism was introduced.
For many generations Nuh's people had been worshipping statues that they called gods. They believed that these gods would bring them good, protect them from evil and provide all their needs. They gave their idols names such as Waddan, Suwa'an, Yaghutha, Ya'auga, and Nasran, (These idols represented, respectively, manly power; mutability, beauty; brute strength, swiftness, sharp sight, insight) according to the power they thought these gods possessed.
Allah the Almighty revealed: "They (idolaters) have said: "You shall not leave your gods nor shall you leave Wadd, nor Suwa, nor Yaghuth, nor Ya uq nor Nasr (names of the idols)." (71:23 Quran).
Originally these were the names of good people who had lived among them. After their deaths, statues of them were erected to keep their memories alive. After sometime, however, people began to worship these statues. Later generations did not even know why they had been erected; they only knew their parents had prayed to them. That is how idol worshipping developed. Since they had no understanding of Allah the Almighty Who would punish them for their evil deeds, they became cruel and immoral.
Ibn Abbas explained: "Following upon the death of those righteous men, Satan inspired their people to erect statues in the places where they used to sit. They did this, but these statues were not worshiped until the coming generations deviated from the right way of life. Then they worshipped them as their idols."
In his version, Ibn Jarir narrated: "There were righteous people who lived in the period between Adam and Nuh and who had followers who held them as models. After their death, their friends who used to emulate them said: 'If we make statues of them, it will be more pleasing to us in our worship and will remind us of them.' So they built statues of them, and , after they had died and others came after them, Iblis crept into their minds saying:'Your forefathers used to worship them, and through that worship they got rain.' So they worshipped them."
Ibn Abi Hatim related this story: "Waddan was a righteous man who was loved by his people. When he died, they withdrew to his grave in the land of Babylonia and were overwhelmed by sadness. When Iblis saw their sorrow caused by his death, he disguised himself in the form of a man saying: 'I have seen your sorrow because of this man's death; can I make a statue like him which could be put in your meeting place to make you remember him?' They said: 'Yes.'
So he made the statue like him. They put it in their meeting place in order to be reminded of him. When Iblis saw their interest in remembering him, he said: 'Can I build a statue of him in the home of each one of you so that he would be in everyone's house and you could remember him?'
They agreed. Their children learned about and saw what they were doing. They also learned about their remembrance of him instead of Allah. So the first to be worshipped instead of Allah was Waddan, the idol which they named thus."
The essence of this point is that every idol from those earlier mentioned was worshipped by a certain group of people. It was mentioned that people made picture sand as the ages passed they made these pictures into statues, so that their forms could be fully recognized; afterwards they were worshipped instead of Allah.
It was narrated that Umm Salmah and Umm Habibah told Allah's Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) about the church called "Maria" which they had seen in the land of Abyssinia. They described its beauty and the pictures therein. He said: "Those are the people who build places of worship on the grave of every dead man who was righteous and then make therein those pictures. Those are the worst of creation unto Allah." (Sahih al Bukhari).
Worshipping anything other than Allah is a tragedy that results not only in the loss of freedom; its serious effect reaches man's mind and destroys it as well. Almighty Allah created man and his mind with its purpose set on achieving knowledge the most important of which is that Allah alone is the Creator and all the rest are worshippers (slaves). Therefore, disbelief in Allah, or polytheism, results in the loss of freedom, the destruction of the mind, and the absence of a noble target in life. (By worshipping anything other than Allah, man becomes enslaved to Satan, who is himself a creature and becomes harnessed to his own baser qualities).
Into this environment Allah sent Nuh with His message to his people. Nuh was the only intellectual not caught in the whirlpool of man's destruction which was caused by polytheism.
Allah is His Mercy sent His messenger Nuh to guide his people. Nuh was an excellent speaker and a very patient man. He pointed out to his people the mysteries of life and the wonders of the universe. He pointed out how the night is regularly followed by the day and that the balance between these opposites were designed by Allah the Almighty for our good. The night gives coolness and rest while the day gives warmth and awakens activity. The sun encourages growth, keeping all plants and animals alive, while the moon and stars assist in the reckoning of time, direction and seasons. He pointed out that the ownership of the heavens and the earth belongs only to the Divine Creator.
Therefore, he explained to this people, there cannot have been more than one deity. He clarified to them how the devil had deceived them for so long and that the time had come for this deceit to stop. Nuh spoke to them of Allah's glorification of man, how HE had created him and provided him with sustenance and the blessings of a mind. He told them that idol worshipping was a suffocating injustice to the mind. He warned them not to worship anyone but Allah and described the terrible punishment Allah would mete out if they continued in their evil ways.
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophets...-nuh-noah.html
Now that you understand the call of Prophet Noah, you will realise that the call of ALL the Prophets of Allaah were similar to what Noah called to. The believers were saved, the disbelievers destroyed. And then others dwelled in the lands after, they worshipped Allaah. As time progressed - they started worshipping the pious people to 'draw closer to Allaah' as intermediarries. This then evolved into polytheism, and the cycle started all over again, so a Prophet was sent. They were warned and given glad tidings - then the believers were saved and the disbelievers destroyed.
1. You wrote that
“There have been over 124,000 Prophets”, so I am left to wonder, does this mean that you hold as a Muslim that “Islamic prophets” were sent to peoples like the Aztec Indians and other ethnic groups that have been isolated from society? If so, I assume you believe these people like the Mayans and the Aztecs rejected prophets that the Deity of Islam sent to them? You said:
“Now that we've got that cleared, we can say that to every nation Allaah has sent a Messenger. This Messenger made it clear to his people what i've mentioned above i.e. every soul responsible for its own actions, Day of Ressurection etc.” However, this seems like an abnormal response. I have never heard of any calls for monotheism in these isolated nations, and if there were calls, but they were silenced swiftly, therefore not making it into recorded history, can all of these people in the nation be held accountable for not heeding the call of someone, when there entire life they are raised with a certain mentality? If it is your opinion that everyone was able to receive a valid message, than alright. It is your belief, so I can hold nothing against you for it. I believe a sea parted for an entire nation! :-)
If these people survived, then that means that probably they once upon a time were rightly guided and obeyed the Prophet sent to them. Allaah never punishes a people until they persist in their disbelief and puff themselves up in pride in disobedience to Allaah, and worship others along with Allaah even though the truth is manifest to them.
Also, if you read the verse which i quoted, Allaah sends Messengers to people from among themselves, a Prophet who knows the customs of his people, the language etc. so they can make the message clear to them.
I remember i read a story a while ago of a man who bowed to a stone idol asking him for help, then a dog ran past and urinated on the idol. The man got up and realised that this couldn't be a deity worthy of worship since it couldn't protect itself, never mind him. So he deserted the idol and left to to search for the truth. This was his Fitrah [natural disposition] which Allaah created him in, along with the logic which Allaah gave him. That the One who gives us all we have is more worthy of worship than a stone carved idol which people themselves create.
I assume we will have to move on, but I must address this last point that you made:
“Therefore, all the people who heard the message have to accept it. If they never, then if this nation persisted in their disbelief, and harmed the Messengers and expelled them from their lands, then Allaah would destroy the disbelievers, and the believers would dwell in that land until an appointed time.”
I am not sure if I understand completely so please correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that because they heard a mere call to come to monotheism they were completely expected to? What proofs would the “Islamic prophet” reveal to these people? Miracles? I assume that is it, but then why would they not take note and begin either worshipping this prophet, or showing signs of turning to monotheism? There have been many isolated nations that if they did indeed get the call, and it was rejected as you would put it… it just seems like it is not plausible. Maybe I am thinking under Jewish thought, but does Islam consider anyone who can reveal miracles to be a prophet? Magicians and Sorcerers have these powers as well, and it is written in the Torah that false prophets will be given miracle powers to lead us from the Torah. But the way we distinguish if they are true prophets is by their observance of the Torah. So how were these nations revealed or called upon? If you do not know that is fine, but I am curious to see what you have to say on this. If they were called, what were they called to do? Follow the Quran?
As stated before, it wasn't a 'mere' call to monotheism - ALL the Messengers of Allaah made the call clear, and only after people rejected the call arrogantly and persisted in that did they get destroyed.
Many of the Prophets of Allaah would be of a honorable and potential leaders of society, known for their truthfulness, honesty, sincerety etc.
Allaah would reveal the message to them to make it clear to the people and the people would know that they are not liars. People may ask why an angel wasn't sent, or why Allaah Alone never appeared infront of them. However, if Allaah is shown to them clearly, then what is the concept of the test in this life?
The Prophets called to monotheism, and the majority of the people believed in their Creator and Sustainer, they just rejected the fact that He should be worshipped Alone. So no intermediarries attatched, no intercessors - just you and God. Worship Him Alone, only He is worthy of it. Yet the people turned away because their forefathers worshipped others along with Allaah. That still couldn't be an excuse for them, since Allaah has created us all in the state of Fitrah - And we are all born knowing that Allaah is Alone worthy of worship. The logic that He is Alone our Creator and Sustainer makes it clear that He is Alone worthy of worship. The other deities are themselves created.
2. From the influence that the Islamic world had on Europe, do you really believe that the majority of citizens in Europe heard anything about Islam at all except when their ministers probably called it “demonic”? Although Islam did impressively spread akin to various religions before it,
I am unsure of what the purpose of all those who did not here the call had. Before Mohammad and Jesus, what purpose did all non-Jews have according to Islam? When according to Christianity and Islam the entire world became responsible to heed to the claims of men from the Middle East, why did it change all of a sudden? Is there an explanation from Islamic scripture as to why the sudden change?
Those who never heard the message may have been a 'stepping stone' for those who were seekers of the truth.
I can also try to give the example of a child being born and then dying, this child didn't have any sins (because sins are recorded only after one reaches puberty - an adult) - however, this child is still a trial for the parents, since the parent is tested to see if they will remain patient in the time of their childs death.
Finally, since Islam holds that the concept of reincarnation in any form (Pagan, or Jewish) is complete blasphemy, my question still stands when I ask about all those (majority of the world) who have never heard of the actual message of Islam (not including those who have heard of Islam, but we cannot 100% assume that they received a proper message), but are aloud to enter paradise (as I have read on this board), what purpose was their life? They did not find G-d, they did not worship him in the “correct Islamic way”, and they never heard the message either. What purpose was there life? They did not suitably worship G-d the Islamic way, but they cannot be held accountable because they never heard of Islam. To top that, why can they not receive a second chance and be sent back to this earth to try again?
Again, as stated before. They may be a 'stepping stone' for others to search for the truth. And these people themselves will be tested on the Day of Judgement, the why's and hows i don't know sorry. However, no soul will be dealt with unjustly on that day. The Day in of itself will eb 50,000years long. And every soul created will return to Allaah, the Lord of the Worlds on that Day. So Allaah will deal with everyone with justice.
That leads me to my next question:
3.Is reincarnation (the concept, not the pagan belief of it) ever stressed to be entirely invalid in any Islamic scripture?
The concept of 'no soul bearing the burden of another' was the message of the Prophets of Allaah. This is a big mistake the christians fell into when they started claiming that due to Adam's mistake, all the children of Adam are sinful. And that Jesus son of Mary 'died' for all of their sins.
Every soul will taste death, and then we will ALL return to Allaah on the Day of Judgement. So the idea of one death and the return on the Day of Judgement means that the idea of reincarnation isn't applicable.
4. Something interesting you said was,
“According to authentic narrations, the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, gave his community the glad tidings that they would conquer Damascus, Jerusalem, Iraq, Persia, Istanbul (Constantinople) and Cyprus, and that the religion of Islam would reach as far as the remotest corners of the world in the east and west.” By any chance can I get the source of where Mohammad wrote this, or the legend of where he said it. I always enjoy a good read, and I will of course avoid trying to “refute” it since I am not here for debate, but to learn about humanity and (since this is an Islamic board), Islamic thought compared to Jewish logic.
If you read the verse mentioned in my previous post, you'll realise that Allaah's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was an illiterate man. So he couldn't read nor write.
"Say: 'O mankind! ! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided." (Qur'an 7:158)
Once i find the source of the hadith, i'll quote it inshaa Allaah. Sorry for not doing so.
5. And finally, you wrote:
“In regard to your questions about some non muslims not recieving the message, then we know that Allaah has allowed the remenants of the Prophets religion to remain within their people. I.e. the arabs had been astray for many centuries, yet the remenants of the religion of Prophet Abraham (of pure monotheism and the rites of prostration, hajj/the pilgrimage, helping the needy etc.) still remained among the arabs. This can also be said about other nations who recieved a Messenger. And Allaah has preserved the message of His final Messenger (i.e. the Qur'an and Sunnah) until the final hour as a blessing for us, since there will be no messenger or prophet who comes after him.”
But I have a dilemma that I hope you could clear up for me, on the above statement. Your comment about remnants of religion is very interesting, but in the case of Islam, do you not hold that the Deity of Islam sent an “Islamic prophet” to correct the problem and repair the remnants into what you call Islam today. If so, then how will the remnants of the other nations be repaired since Islam holds that Mohammad was the final prophet of Islam. Isn’t a prophet needed to repair the remnants as was the case with the Arabian pagans?
Yes, the reason why i explained the remenants was to clarify that the religion of the previous Prophet still has some parts which allow those who are sincere to hold onto. And it can be a link to the Prophet who is to come ahead. However, the message revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him) will remain firm intact since there are no more Prophets after him.
We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). [Qur'an 15:9]
6. You also said:
“Now Allah leaves straying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full of Wisdom.” What am I to make of this? Are you saying G-d guides who ever he wants and he will actually “stray” people whom he pleases? Why is this? If you suggest that he strays the arrogant, and guides those seeking truth, are you going to make the “powerful” statement that all who have ever genuinely sought out truth, have found Islam since they have been “guided”?
It seems a little two black and white, removing many shades of grey, which in my experience exist in this world for a major reason.
If you read the verse, it said that Allaah allows them to
remain astray.
Also there are other ahadith which actually make things abit clear:
Allaah Almighty says:
“O My slaves, all of you are astray except those whom I guide, so ask Me for guidance, and I will guide you. O My slaves, all of you are hungry except those whom I feed, so ask me for food and I will feed you. O My slaves, all of you are naked except those whom I clothe, so ask Me for clothing and I will clothe you. … O My slaves, if the first of you and the last of you, your humans and your jinn, were to stand on a single plain and ask of Me and I were to give each one what he asked for, that would not cause any loss to Me greater than what is lost when a needle is dipped into the sea.”
Narrated by Muslim (2577).
There is also a hadith which states that;
The Prophet (Peace be upon him) said: Allah the Almighty said:
I am as My servant thinks I am (1). I am with him when he makes mention of Me. If he makes mention of Me to himself, I make mention of him to Myself; and if he makes mention of Me in an assembly, I make mention of him in an assemble better than it. And if he draws near to Me an arm's length, I draw near to him a fathom's length. And if he comes to Me walking, I go to him at speed.
(1) Another possible rendering of the Arabic is: "I am as My servant expects Me to be". The meaning is that forgiveness and acceptance of repentance by the Almighty is subject to His servant truly believing that He is forgiving and merciful. However, not to accompany such belief with right action would be to mock the Almighty.
It was related by al-Buhkari (also by Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn-Majah).
All of mankind is astray except those who take them steps towards Allaah, in sincerety and with the intention of searching for the truth. Then once they turn to Allaah for that guidance and ask Him of it - then He is the One who guides the hearts. And those who are sincere in wanting to turn away from Allaah, and have the intention that they want to be rebellious against Him - even when the truth becomes clear and manifest to them - then they are lead astray, while they throw themselves into destruction while they percieve it not.
This is explained in the Qur'an when Allaah says:
By the night when it covers
And [by] the day when it appears
And [by] He who created the male and female,
Certainly, your efforts and deeds are diverse (different in aims and purposes);
As for him who gives (in charity) and keeps his duty to Allah and fears Him,
And believes in the best [reward],
We will make smooth for him the path of ease (goodness).
But he who is greedy miser and thinks himself self-sufficient.
And denies the best [reward],
We will make smooth for him the path for evil;
And what will his wealth benefit him when he goes down (in destruction).
Truly! Ours it is (to give) guidance,
And truly, unto Us (belong) the last (Hereafter) and the first (this world).
Therefore I have warned you of a Fire blazing fiercely (Hell);
None shall enter it save the most wretched,
Who denies and turns away.
But the righteous one will avoid it -
[He] who gives [from] his wealth to purify himself
And not [giving] for anyone who has [done him] a favor to be rewarded
But only seeking the countenance of his Lord, Most High.
He surely will be pleased (when he will enter Paradise).
[Qur'an Surah Layl (the Night) 92]
http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...ing-koran.html
May Allaah guide us all to the path towards Him and His good. ameen.
Those who die before finding Islaam, then they will be raised back on the Day of Judgement by their intentions. And Allaah will judge them accordingly with Justice.
7. Is there any Islamic material that goes into depth on the soul and specific things about it, like for example the Zohar HaKodesh in Judaism which teaches us these things, like the purpose of life is the elevation of ones soul, and the refinement of specific characteristics in which we are all trying to perfect to enjoy the spiritual bliss of heaven.
How does Islam define the bliss of heaven? Like I would love some examples of rewards and things of that nature.
And they ask you (O Muhammad) concerning the Ruh (the Spirit); Say: "The Ruh (the Spirit): it is one of the things, the knowledge of which is only with my Lord. And of knowledge, you (mankind) have been given only a little."
[Qur'an 17:85]
You can read this article on the Soul and its link with the body:
The Partnership between Body and Soul
http://www.islamtoday.com/showme_wee...sub_cat_id=720
In regard to Paradise and Hellfire, you can check this link:
http://www.islamicboard.com/akhira-h...an-sunnah.html
Or the section regarding the hereafter can be accessed here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/akhira-hereafter/
Also;
Abu Huraira narrates, It's been reported that Allah's Messenger, Muhammad (may peace be upon him) said that:
Allah the Exalted and Glorious, said: I have prepared for My pious servants which no eye has ever seen, and no ear has ever heard, and no human heart has ever perceived but it is testified by the Book of Allah. He then recited:" No soul knows what comfort has been concealed from them, as a reward for what they did".
Thanks in advance. You’re a great help.
Thanks.
And Allaah Almighty knows best.