Religious Faith & Beliefs

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Karina

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We believe most of the things we believe about the world, because others have told us to. True?

How is it that if someone told you that a spaceship full of purple aliens was just about to land in your garden you would require a good amount of solid evidence before you BELIEVED this. Without evidence, surely you would think this to be madness, insanity even.

Yet, when we are conditioned to believe that there is an ultimate creator of our universe who can hear all our thoughts and will determine our fate on the day of judgment, we accept without question, without evidence?? :?

Why do we join the masses, why do billions of us believe what a neutral lone-observer would find proposterous - is it sanity in numbers??

Why do you believe without question? Why do you accept what is blatently un-testable and cannot be proven?

My logical, common-sense side of me is just curious, that's all........

:) ,
 
Just my views. Others may or may not agree.


We believe most of the things we believe about the world, because others have told us to. True?

I don't believe that is my reason.



How is it that if someone told you that a spaceship full of purple aliens was just about to land in your garden you would require a good amount of solid evidence before you BELIEVED this. Without evidence, surely you would think this to be madness, insanity even.

True

Yet, when we are conditioned to believe that there is an ultimate creator of our universe who can hear all our thoughts and will determine our fate on the day of judgment, we accept without question, without evidence?? :?

I spent much of my life doubtying and was not satistied until I got hit with evidence.

Why do we join the masses, why do billions of us believe what a neutral lone-observer would find proposterous - is it sanity in numbers??

The beliefs of other people is not much concern to me. I believe each person is free to follow what ever evidence they see.

Why do you believe without question? Why do you accept what is blatently un-testable and cannot be proven?

I questioned for most of my life.

My logical, common-sense side of me is just curious, that's all........



:) ,
 
Bismillahi Arrahmani Arraheem

Karina said:
Why do we join the masses, why do billions of us believe what a neutral lone-observer would find proposterous - is it sanity in numbers?? Why do you believe without question? Why do you accept what is blatently un-testable and cannot be proven?

You are correct that sanity cannot be determined by numbers. No matter how popular a belief is, it's popularity in it of itself is not proof that it is correct.

Consequently, Islam is not a blind faith. Muslims do not believe in Islam for the sake of believing. Allah Most Exalted says in the Holy Quran says:

Say thou: This is my way: I do invite unto Allah - on evidence clear as the seeing with one's eyes - I and whoever follows me. Glory to Allah. and never will I join gods with Allah. (Yusuf 12:108)

The way to Allah, the religion of Islam, is not a blind faith, but rather, the Seal of the Prophets, Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) invited people to accept Islam on literally visible evidence. Our Lord is so Merciful and understanding that He would not let us live our lives with our limited rationality and limited faculties without revealing Himself to us, and revealing His guidance for us so we can live righteously, make this world a better place, and be worthy of salvation. The miracles which our Holy Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) was given by Allah were eye witnessed to by multitudes of people. Something other-worldly and truly extraordinary occurred in the deserts of Arabia some fourteen hundred years ago.

The Holy Quran itself is the miracle of miracles. The signs and clear irrefutable evidence is filled in every verse. Prophecies have been so precisely fulfilled, that no reasonable person can deny that the author of the Holy Quran is someone who is Omnicient, All-Knowing, who has knowledge of the unseen, including events that will occur in the future. A human being cannot know such things, cannot predict such things.

The thought-provoking evidence about the existence of Allah is pointed to in the Holy Quran as well. Two major arguments, scientific arguments, were given in the Holy Quran, a book revealed to the desert-dwellers of Arabia fourteen hundred years back:

That to thy Lord is the final goal (An-Najm 53:42)

Meaning, for every cause, there is an effect, and this chain is terminated in the Lord (Rab), to whom the final goal belongs.

He said: Our Lord is He Who gave to each (created) thing its form and nature, and further, gave (it) guidance. (Ta Ha 20:50)

If one reflects on this verse itself, one can see how true and precise it is. Every single organism and creation of Allah is designed in such a way to live in it environment and survive. The design of the animals, their "special features", defensive mechanisms, etc., all which they need to survive and propogate their species, are bestowed by an Omnicient Creator. This cannot be regarded as an accident of nature. Similarly with the universe, and its creation. The universe is a created thing, but to this day no scientist can explain what caused the universe to come into existence. The only coherent and logical anwer is found in revelation: Their apostles said: Is there a doubt about Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth? (Ibrahim 14:10)

Returning to the subject of beliefs and their legitimacy on the basis of popularity, you cannot deny that the majority of humanity, though they do not worship the same god necessarily, or have the same beliefs, nevertheless have an inclination toward seeking the Lord and cultivating a relationship with Him. This natural inclination of man towards spirituality and religion is due to the design of the soul (nafs), and this design is mentioned directly in the Holy Quran (Al-Araf 7:172).

And so essentially I believe that Allah does exist, and not only does He exist, there is ample historical evidence and eye witness testimony that He revealed Himself to mankind through the agency of prophets, and these prophets performed great miracles by the will of Allah, miracles and signs which cannot be scientifically or rationally explained, except that they are from Heaven.
 
We believe most of the things we believe about the world, because others have told us to. True?

How is it that if someone told you that a spaceship full of purple aliens was just about to land in your garden you would require a good amount of solid evidence before you BELIEVED this. Without evidence, surely you would think this to be madness, insanity even.

Yet, when we are conditioned to believe that there is an ultimate creator of our universe who can hear all our thoughts and will determine our fate on the day of judgment, we accept without question, without evidence?? :?

Why do we join the masses, why do billions of us believe what a neutral lone-observer would find proposterous - is it sanity in numbers??

Why do you believe without question? Why do you accept what is blatently un-testable and cannot be proven?

My logical, common-sense side of me is just curious, that's all........

:) ,




Belief's Infers Doubt .
Faith is one thing , knowing is another , You may have faith in your cart , but not know the wheel is loose

This world is divided into two people the so-called Righteous and the Un-righteous , And it's always the so-called Righteous that does the Dividing .
 
We believe most of the things we believe about the world, because others have told us to. True?

Yet, when we are conditioned to believe that there is an ultimate creator of our universe who can hear all our thoughts and will determine our fate on the day of judgment, we accept without question, without evidence??

When judging truths over falsehoods, we obviously need some criteria to be met, but so far no one methodology has proven to be flawless.

Empirical testing is to limited since not everything can be tested (just think how challenging it becomes to test certain psychological or sociological theories) And even if such a given theory is testable, it is still easy to reach the wrong conclusions from the results of a test. Even in science the testability of theories becomes trickier as we dig deeper.

Another method is Ockham’s razor; it states that explanations shouldn’t be complex beyond necessity. In other words: If there are two different theories explaining a phenomenon and both theories are equally accurate, the simplest explanation is most likely to be true. The problem here is that it’s not always easy to establish whether both theories are actually equally accurate. Furthermore it’s easy to be biased with personal preference when judging which explanation out of the two is “simplest”.

Pragmatism is yet another method to sort out truth from falsehoods. It says to examine the usability of a theory to validate its truthfulness. The most useful city map -the one that gets us where we need to be- will most likely be truthful. This is a very effective way of establishing something is true. After sending a rocket to the moon using nothing more then Newtonian physics, it seems absurd to still question its validity. It is useful, therefore it must be true. But don't forget that although the simplified city map might be easiest one to read; and thus more useful to us, that the detailed map will still bear the closest resemblance to the actual street grid. Newtonian physics might be sufficient to land a rocket on the moon. But when we start examining the world of the very small; we notice it doesn’t suffice. There we need a whole new theory -quantum physics- to describe what’s going on. An embarrassing secret for science is that Quantum mechanics is not compatible with general relativity.

Finally our most basic way of verifying truths -our own logic- on which all other methods rely upon one way or the other; is fallible. We cannot test the logic of anything without first making assumptions. A logical argument without a premise is like math without axioms. An axiom is a proposition that is not susceptible of proof or disproof; its truth is assumed to be self-evident. In mathematics it is a basic assumption about a system from which theorems can be deduced. For example, in geometry where the points and lines in the plane are a system. An axiom would be that given any two distinct points in the plane, there is a unique line through them. This seems self-evident to most people yet there is no known proof for this statement. It’s just an assumption on which our worldly mathematics are based. And there have been people who came up with alternative mathematics relying on different axioms which although very abstract were very logical and sometimes even useful!

We call the sum of all these assumptions we make, upon which we base our logical reasoning, a paradigm. A paradigm isn’t a certainty. Not even in the way a theory is certain. A theory is an explanation of certain events, like Newton’s theory of gravity which describes the relation between different objects with mass. A paradigm is a set of assumptions; that aren’t even meant to be tested. Most of them are made on an unconscious level. They are a necessary evil used by individuals, scientists and even societies on a daily basis. It’s like a simplified map of reality, which allows you to find your way in the chaos of our daily life. The danger within these assumptions lies in the fact that they trigger opinions and new theories. These will on their turn easily produce proof for the original assumption since those assumptions are already build into it. This will eventually build up an impenetrable network of tainted views. Here’s an illustrating conversation between two friends I recently witnessed:

Juliet: See, Romeo once promised me to invite me over to eat fish, but he never did invite me. Goes to show how much a men’s promise is worth.
Romeo: Well the reason I never invited you is because you came by once while I was cooking fish. At this point I asked you to join for diner which you accepted. So I no longer felt the obligation to keep up that promise of “inviting”.
Juliet: You’re an opportunist; you know I wouldn’t remember such things so you just made that up.

Whether or not Romeo had actually once cooked fish for her or not, I do not know. I did find it intriguing however that Juliet -although admitting her own memory is unreliable- prefers to believe that Romeo was lying above the more likely explanation: “she simply forgot”. Apparently she judged that thinking of Romeo as an opportunistic liar made more sense according to her feminist paradigm. Coincidently this very same paradigm -next to initiating the conversation- was also the point of view she tried to defend with this very discussion.

Such a paradigm is a home. It’s a safe haven whenever a thought comes along that looks threatening. It is a reliable friend by whom’s terms you like to discuss. It is a rope when the unknown feels like a black abyss. It’s a fantasy build to protect you from the chaotic world in your daily life. It is the simplified map which is easy to read but unrepresentative.

Ask yourself this simple question: “By what authority are my assumptions better then my neighbor’s? And such assumptions are all around us. They have always been there, and looking at the assumptions of the past, if history is any guide, much that we take for granted today is simply not true.
But how can two views views that are based on two sets of experiences out of the same world become so antagonistic? Why is it so hard to find common ground between them? Well, because the essences of some things aren’t definable in simple words. From the moment you choose a personal description to explain an idea you loose its purity. Since two people can look at the same thing and see something different, referring to it by name isn’t enough. If you want to explain why you see it differently you have to add a context and personal experience to it. But then again, focusing on to much context will send you off topic. And even more importantly, since both parties have a different approach on the subject they will dismiss each others context for being irrelevant. So basically the description of the essence is unrepresentative due to the lack of context, whereas the description of the context is unrepresentative due to the lack of essence.

So how does one eventually define something as true or false? How do we choose our paradigm? Do we even have a choice in it? Which one is the right one? Well, in the end it’s a mater of belief. Which one seems most likely? Which one has the least inconsistency? What does your personal experience tell you? Everyone chooses by their own criteria. What is belief? When is it justified? Is believing equal to knowing? Is knowing equal to believing? Are agnosticism, secularism and atheism also paradigms? And if so, what advantage do they have above theisms?

Well the above questions were retorical, but could you answer just this one, please.

If you only believe what is proven, and not that which is probable, then hypotetically speaking, if there would be a religion which is true, you would still never believe in it?
 
Hi Karina

I spent much of my life doubting the religious teachings I received as a child.
I walked away from it for many years, I searched other religions, and found all wanting.

Without going into too much detail, what brought me to the faith I now hold is an experience I had, which I believe to be divine and which left me with a strong and unshakable personal conviction of who God is and how he affects my life.

You are right, I still cannot prove it to anybody.
But personally, for myself, I have tested this experience over and over again. It continues to convince me despite much challenge and questioning from myself and from others.
That's the reason I follow my faith.
That's my personal evidence.
It's nothing to do with 'following the masses'. It is to do with me following what I believe to be God's revelation in my own life.

I cannot provide proof or evidence for others ... they will have to seek and find their own!

Peace :)
 
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We believe most of the things we believe about the world, because others have told us to. True?

I don't think so. People can tell you what they believe and what they think you should believe, but I don't think they can succesfully tell you to believe something any more than you can tell yourself to believe something.

Obviously the culture and (particularly) family environment you were brought up in have a huge influence on what you are likely to believe, but there are plenty of people here from all the religions represented who were not brought up within the religious tradition they now follow, but discovered the way that suited them, and that they could believe in, for themselves.
 
How is it that if someone told you that a spaceship full of purple aliens was just about to land in your garden you would require a good amount of solid evidence before you BELIEVED this. Without evidence, surely you would think this to be madness, insanity even.

Let me ask you why would you hold it to be madness? Since we are assessing beliefs, if I'm not mistaken you'd choose to believe that such a statement would be false, how would you come to that conclusion?

Yet, when we are conditioned to believe that there is an ultimate creator of our universe who can hear all our thoughts and will determine our fate on the day of judgment, we accept without question, without evidence?? :?

And when we are told that the universe came into being accidentaly or without cause we are to accept it without question, without evidence?

Sounds like this is gonna be a good thread

:) I hope.

Regards

Eesa
 
Hi Wilber

Do you have any personal thoughts as to why humans have a 'need to believe'?
I think it is part of an evolutionary force that helped us cope.
Or maybe god planted it within us.
But my bet is on the former and I think the latter is caused by the former. :skeleton:

But hay, you didn’t think I would destroy my agnosticism and have a definite answer did you? :D :D :D :D

Sorry Glo, I just could not resist.
 
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I think it is part of an evolutionary force that helped us cope.
Or maybe god planted it within us.
But my bet is on the former and I think the latter is caused by the former. :skeleton:

But hay, you didn’t think I would destroy my agnosticism

No, spoken like a true agnostic, Wilber! (I'm proud of you :D)

I liked your reply to Karina, btw. I am sure we all seek refuge in all sorts of comforts at times, instead of turning to the real truth. I am not necessarily thinking about seeking refuge in one's faith, but seeking refuge in alcohol, drugs, TV, fashion, consumerism etc, etc.

Gotta go now ...

Peace
 
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I think it is part of an evolutionary force that helped us cope.
Or maybe god planted it within us.
But my bet is on the former and I think the latter is caused by the former. :skeleton:

But hay, you didn’t think I would destroy my agnosticism and have a definite answer did you? :D :D :D :D

Sorry Glo, I just could not resist.

Hey Wilbur, I do have to agree you do post some sensible stuff that forces me to think.

The only thing that would refute you is the existence of God(swt) and I know I can not post anything that you would accept as irrefutable proof of that.

But, just out of curiosity, what do you believe would be an evolutionary advantage for people to have religious beliefs?
 
Hey Wilbur, I do have to agree you do post some sensible stuff that forces me to think.

The only thing that would refute you is the existence of God(swt) and I know I can not post anything that you would accept as irrefutable proof of that.

But, just out of curiosity, what do you believe would be an evolutionary advantage for people to have religious beliefs?
I think there are many reasons people invented religions.
One advantage I see, (far too often) is help in handling grief.
A belief in heaven means that your loved one is in a far better place and you can still talk to them. Though I truly doubt the existence of heaven, I still talk to my mom and dad frequently.
The sooner and better you handle your greef, the sooner and better you get back to living.
 
I can't speak for other believers, but personally I wouldn't put comfort over truth. When you do that, youi're just lying to yourself. And although I agree you could say the thought of heaven and justice in the afterlife is comforting, you could equally say that the thought of Hell and eternal torture is discomforting. So a theist could just as well dismiss an atheist or agnostic by that very same line of thinking; and claim that they don't believe because the thought of hell is to discomfortable. And yes, I 'm sure there are opportunists out there, who believe whatever suits them. But I think those don't really have true faith.
 
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I can't speak for other believers, but personally I wouldn't put comfort over truth. When you do that, youi're just lying to yourself. And although I agree you could say the thought of heaven and justice in the afterlife is comforting, you could equally say that the thought of Hell and eternal torture is discomforting. So a theist could just as well dismiss an atheist or agnostic by that very same line of thinking; and claim that they don't believe because the thought of hell is to discomfortable. And yes, I 'm sure there are opportunists out there, who believe whatever suits them. But I think those don't really have true faith.
I think heaven and hell serve to different agendas.
Besides what I stated, there are many benefits obtained from believing in heaven.
Hell would also have many benefits. Controlling people is only one.
 
You can't control people with either concept... what can man conceive of the punishment of hell? what can he be tempted with as a reward in heaven? further the concept of either places for eternity isn't something that the mind can fathom...

But the mind wants to know! still the mind has its limitations. The mind tempts itself with what it deems logical (No G-D)-- yet it finds that concept in an of itself not so logical since nothing we know can explain how just one single celled organism has come to existence. Let alone all these expansive and varied life forms. Something at the end of that thought will always border upon magical thinking. Man will substitute one magical idea for another more modern that seems a little less magical and deem it "a theory", call the rest deluded, though admittedly on many levels that man is unable to explain or reproduce his theories!

Man might be able to understand through contrast... but you have to have two of each to contrast to--
Perhaps heaven and hell though contrast in "polarity" are still unfathomable to the human mind -- Jenna in itself which conventionally denotes paradise/heaven, literally means that which is shielded from sight in Arabic.. described as what no eyes have ever seen nor ears have head. So maybe we can't really have hope of what it means to go to heaven or hell, but the concept of justice is something that the mind can fathom! And I have no doubt that justice exists even if not in our physical life!
if we had no night time, could you really speak of day? surely one knows of day, but how could one describe it fully without contrasting it to night? and vice versa... just like we have light we have darkness, but could one know what darkness is, if one didn't have light? could one know what evil is, if one didn't have good?
what an amazing thing it is to be alive... and yet we need to know of death to understand life...
Just like we came from nothing into all this beauty, and just like we turn off the light at night to step into darkness and find ourselves through that Petite Morte of sleep in a thousand situation, no two exactly alike, well we one day find ourselves born into a different life...


peace!
 

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