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nydweller
06-07-2007, 05:58 PM
[URL="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/082.sbt.html#008.082.810"]Salam,
I'm a 25 year old male, and have been a devout muslim for most of my life. Like everyone, I've made my fair share of mistakes, and asked for forgiveness afterwards. I've lived in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for several years, and I've never questioned what I've been taught and what I've read in the Islamic texts that I've had access to over the years. Until now.
Recently, I was sent a link to a video of a young girl being stoned to death in a public square in northern Iraq, and this had a profound effect on me. It was almost too difficult to watch, but I felt like it was my duty to do so since the people engaging in the brutal killing chanted cries of "Allahu Akbar" and thus proclaiming themselves to be representatives of Islam. Essentially they beat this poor 17 year old girl to death with stones and then finished her off with a cinder block to the head, because she had committed zina with a non-Muslim man. I felt dirty and wrong from just watching it.
I spent many hours researching the views of Islam on stoning to death as capital punishment, hoping that I was misinformed about it being allowed in Islam. Unfortunately, this was not the case. My suspicions were confirmed that while it isn't mentioned in the Quran, several aHadith related by Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim give us quotes from the Prophet (PBUH) recommending stoning to death as punishment for such offenders.
(For example, here: USC link)

Now, I am not sure what to do as this is causing many conflicting views within my mind and heart about what I've believed and followed all along. I can post the video of the unfortunate young soul who was stoned to death on video, but I refrain from doing so since there might be younger children on the forums. I will gladly send you the link if you send me a private message.

If there are any learned Islamic scholars on this forum, I would love to hear your thoughts on my dilemma, as well as the thoughts of my fellow brothers and sisters. This is not something, in my opinion, that I can easily reconcile. We are supposed to be bringers of peace, and murdering young women in this fashion seems wrong to me regardless of what she did or planned to do.

Wasalam,
nydweller
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jzcasejz
06-07-2007, 06:01 PM
^ Regarding that video: Wasn't her uncles and family not Muslim or something? They were some ol' skool religion type people...not Muslim right? There was a thread on this...and the video had nothing to do with Islaam.

Allaahu A'lam.
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nydweller
06-07-2007, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by jzcasejz
^ Regarding that video: Wasn't her uncles and family not Muslim or something? They were some ol' skool religion type people...not Muslim right? There was a thread on this...and the video had nothing to do with Islaam.

Allaahu A'lam.
That does not explain the chants of "Allah-u-Akbar" and nor does it explain the many many aHadith related in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim about the Prophet's recommendation of stoning to death as capital punishment for crimes of adultery.
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- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 06:06 PM
Asalaamu 'alykum (peace be upon you.) brother nydweller :)


First of all, to clarify the position about that girl being stoned to death - i think you may have misunderstood. The article was on a non muslim girl becoming muslim, and she wanted to marry a muslim guy, and because her family were against it - they stoned her to death. These people followed an ancient religion of the Iraqi's. And Allaah knows best.



Originally Posted by Article
Aswad, a member of a minority Kurdish religious group called Yezidi, was condemned to death as an “honour killing” by other men in her family and hardline religious leaders because of her relationship with the Sunni Muslim boy.

They said she had shamed herself and her family when she failed to return home one night. Some reports suggested she had converted to Islam to be closer to her boyfriend.

Aswad had taken shelter in the house of a Yezidi tribal leader in Bashika, a predominantly Kurdish town near the northern capital, Mosul.
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...-internet.html




This is a response to the issue of stoning however (by brother Ansar), since we know that the ruling is authentic. The issue of stoning the face/head etc. isn't permitted either. Anyway, heres the article:

:sl:

The punishment of stoning is the hadd punishment for the married adulterer, which essentially entails that it functions exclusively as a deterrent. Here's why. To apply this punishment you need four witnesses to the actual act of penetration who observed it from four different angles and if there is even the slightest contradiction in the most minute details of their testimony, they are punished with eighty lashes for false accusation of adultery. Thus, the implementation of the hadd punishment for zina is a practical impossibility. As the fatwâ committee under the supervision of Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahâb At-Turaryrî notes:
It is not enough for four people to show up at court and give testimony. The witnesses and their backgrounds have to be carefully scrutinized by the courts to determine their trustworthiness and honesty. They have to be able to demonstrate that they saw the crime. It is not easy to explain how one was able to witness such an act without being guilty of any wrongdoing oneself. The witnesses have to see actual sexual penetration. This is not an easy thing to explain.

If the condition of four witnesses of determined trustworthiness is not fulfilled, each of those who accused the person of adultery is given 80 lashes with a whip as the punishment for bearing false witness.

Allah says: “And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 4]

The punishments for fornication and adultery are designed more to protect society from the open practice of licentious sexual behavior than they are designed to punish people.

It is nearly impossible to get a conviction for adultery except in a case where it is carried out in public for all eyes to see. With this threat of severe punishment, people will keep their evil deeds concealed and society as a whole will be protected.
It is worth noting that in the 1400 years of Islamic history, these stringent conditions have never been met even once. And due to the deterrent effect, sexual immorality is suffocated and eradicated in an Islamic society.

In spite of all this, if the impossibility became reality and the punishment were to be carried out, then how would it be done? For the person who is convicted of such a heinous licentious act they would be placed in a pit and pelted to death while covered by a cloth so that their 'awrah is not exposed. If it is by confession and not conviction, they would have the opportunity to retract their confession at any point in time and so they would not be placed in a pit. No one is allowed to curse the person who undergoes this or express pleasure.

For the reasons outlined above, it is evident that whatever movie you have seen could by no stretch of the imagination be construed as Islamic, as this punishment is a practical impossibility and even then would never occur in the manner described.

:w:

http://www.islamicboard.com/591159-post9.html
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Umar001
06-07-2007, 06:16 PM
Just out of curiousity bro, you know Muslims arent the only people who say Allahu Akbar, theres a Christian lady I know that uses MashaAllah, Wallahi, ALhamdulillah and so forth.

Also, bro, do you think a religion can be wrong because it does not comply with our moral standards?
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nydweller
06-07-2007, 06:16 PM
thank you brother for that detailed answer to my somewhat troublesome dilemma. do you think you could post links or actual text of aHadith backing up the need for four witnesses for four angles, and all the other details which you have mentioned?
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nydweller
06-07-2007, 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
Just out of curiousity bro, you know Muslims arent the only people who say Allahu Akbar, theres a Christian lady I know that uses MashaAllah, Wallahi, ALhamdulillah and so forth.

Also, bro, do you think a religion can be wrong because it does not comply with our moral standards?
In my humble opinion, we cannot know that a religion is "right" or "wrong" until we are faced with whatever it is that waits for us in the afterlife. But it is up to us to use the intelligence and awareness we have been given to ask these questions and learn through such inquisitions. Moral standards are one thing, but brutal murder is another. I don't have the right to say what is right and wrong, but the best I can do is figure out for myself what I want to relate with.
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- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 06:28 PM
:salamext:


The verse about the 4 witnesses is mentioned in the article:


Allah says: “And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 4]


And the amazing part is that according to Islamic law, only the adulterer who is married should get the punishment. Therefore - what happened to them youth, if they weren't ever married before - then the ruling would be more relaxed. And Allaah knows best.


Also, brother Ansar (who writ that article) said the following:


Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I know that for the person who confesses they are not put in a pit and are allowed to retract their confession at any time and escape the punishment. But not someone who is actually convicted by four witnesses in public, and we have never had such a case in all of islamic history.

And Allah knows best.
http://www.islamicboard.com/592099-post28.html

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nydweller
06-07-2007, 06:35 PM
but where can i read about four witnesses and four angles and all the minute details having to match up?
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nydweller
06-07-2007, 06:38 PM
I'd also like to ask what then, is the meaning of the verses from Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim in which the Prophet recommends the stoning of a person to death, and the once that I posted a link to in which the relater of the Hadith actually claims to have participated in the stoning of a person to death?

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


The verse about the 4 witnesses is mentioned in the article:


Allah says: “And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations), flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors.” [Sûrah al-Nûr: 4]


And the amazing part is that according to Islamic law, only the adulterer who is married should get the punishment. Therefore - what happened to them youth, if they weren't ever married before - then the ruling would be more relaxed. And Allaah knows best.


Also, brother Ansar (who writ that article) said the following:




http://www.islamicboard.com/592099-post28.html
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- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by nydweller
but where can i read about four witnesses and four angles and all the minute details having to match up?

The 4 witnesses have to actually see the act of intercourse take place:

The fuqaha’ (may Allaah have mercy on them) stated that the basic act of zinaa which carries the punishment is illegal sexual intercourse, whereby the two “circumcised parts” [i.e. genitals] come together and there is penetration of the tip of the penis, because this is actual penetration (which carries the prescribed hadd or punishment).

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=3013&ln=eng&txt=

Do you really think that these people in the video saw that occur? Infact, did it even occur?

Even if we were to forget the actual video, do you really think that there would be 4 witnesses in the same room when this action is occuring? And they see it clearly with their own eyes? (penetration of the tip of the penis, because this is actual penetration)


If they never saw any of this occur, even if it was 3 witnesses and there wasn't a 4th, they would be lashed 80 lashes each for accusing them of zina. Even if they see the couple in the same bed, but they don't see the actual penetration occur - they can't testify.


The only way this could truelly have 4 witnesses is if the people who commited that act did so publically out of showing off. We as muslims know that the act of fornication occurs, it even occured in peoples homes at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) However, Islaam tries to stop the evil from becoming public and widespread. This way there is less corruption and less people incline towards it - out of fear of punishment, aswell as fear of being exposed.



And Allaah knows best.



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nydweller
06-07-2007, 06:51 PM
Thank you. Also, just to clarify the video and the people in it are not the issue here for me. It is simply what got me to thinking and questioning, which is when I came here and posted.

Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The 4 witnesses have to actually see the act of intercourse take place:

The fuqaha’ (may Allaah have mercy on them) stated that the basic act of zinaa which carries the punishment is illegal sexual intercourse, whereby the two “circumcised parts” [i.e. genitals] come together and there is penetration of the tip of the penis, because this is actual penetration (which carries the prescribed hadd or punishment).

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=3013&ln=eng&txt=
Do you really think that these people in the video saw that occur? Infact, did it even occur?

Even if we were to forget the actual video, do you really think that there would be 4 witnesses in the same room when this action is occuring? And they see it clearly with their own eyes? (penetration of the tip of the penis, because this is actual penetration)


If they never saw any of this occur, even if it was 3 witnesses and there wasn't a 4th, they would be lashed 80 lashes each for accusing them of zina. Even if they see the couple in the same bed, but they don't see the actual penetration occur - they can't testify.


The only way this could truelly have 4 witnesses is if the people who commited that act did so publically out of showing off. We as muslims know that the act of fornication occurs, it even occured in peoples homes at the time of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.) However, Islaam tries to stop the evil from becoming public and widespread. This way there is less corruption and less people incline towards it - out of fear of punishment, aswell as fear of being exposed.



And Allaah knows best.



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- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by nydweller
I'd also like to ask what then, is the meaning of the verses from Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim in which the Prophet recommends the stoning of a person to death, and the once that I posted a link to in which the relater of the Hadith actually claims to have participated in the stoning of a person to death?

Again, the way a person can be stoned is;


1) If there are 4 trustworthy witnesses who testify to the fact that they saw the actual penetration occur.

2) The person him/herself testifies to their ownself. However, if there aren't 4 witnesses, and the person repents while keeping it between him/herself and Allaah, then Allaah is still willing to forgive them. That's why, if you read the hadith which you quoted - it was the same man which Allaah's Messenger turned away from 3 or 4 times. Then when he persisted and made his claim public, then he was stoned for that, and Allaah forgave him insha Allaah.

If someone repents or recieves the hadd prescribed punishment - they are forgiven for that crime in the hereafter. And Allaah knows best.
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nydweller
06-07-2007, 06:56 PM
Thank you to everyone who replied.

Certainly some food for thought that I'll need to have my mind chew on for a while.


Wasalam.
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- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 06:57 PM
:salamext:


Alhamdulillah :) if you ever have anymore questions, please do ask. Since the cure to ignorance is asking.
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asadxyz
06-07-2007, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Again, the way a person can be stoned is;


1) If there are 4 trustworthy witnesses who testify to the fact that they saw the actual penetration occur.

2) The person him/herself testifies to their ownself. However, if there aren't 4 witnesses, and the person repents while keeping it between him/herself and Allaah, then Allaah is still willing to forgive them. That's why, if you read the hadith which you quoted - it was the same man which Allaah's Messenger turned away from 3 or 4 times. Then when he persisted and made his claim public, then he was stoned for that, and Allaah forgave him insha Allaah.

If someone repents or recieves the hadd prescribed punishment - they are forgiven for that crime in the hereafter. And Allaah knows best.
Assalaamo Alaikum:
What about this narration of Sahih Bukhari:
Volumn 008, Book 082, Hadith Number 816.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Ibn 'Abbas : 'Umar said, "I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, "We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book," and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession." Sufyan added, "I have memorized this narration in this way." 'Umar added, "Surely Allah's Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him."

This narration describes three proofs:
  1. Witnesses
  2. Pregnancy
  3. Confession

Best of luck
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- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 07:27 PM
:salamext:


Jazaak Allaah khayr brother asad, is there any tafsir/explanation on that :) If you can find some, please do post it insha Allaah. About the pregnancy part.
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asadxyz
06-07-2007, 07:33 PM
Assalaamo Alaikum:
Actually while browsing you discussion I opened Sahi Bukhari I came across this narration.
Secondly ,let us suppose ,a woman is married and her husband is abroad for two yrs.She becomes pregnant.So
Naturally she has committed adultery
Does it still need Four witnesses proof??
What will be the punishment ?? Stoning or something else?
best of luck
Reply

- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 07:33 PM
:salamext:

I've also found this alhamdulillah.


On the subject of stoning, etc. please read this:



Fornication and Adultery

This is defined as any case where a man has coitus with a woman who is unlawful to him. Any relationship between a man and a woman that does not contain coitus does not fall under this category and does not mandate the prescribed, fixed punishment.

The prescribed punishment is different depending on the marital status of the perpetrator. A single person who has never been previously married receives one hundred lashes as stated by Allah:

The fornicatress and the fornicator, give each of them one hundred lashes.


If the person is married or has previously been married, then the punishment is stoning until death. This punishment has been established by a number of had?th of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

The following conditions must be met before either of these two punishments can be carried out:



1. Four trustworthy witnesses must give testimony that they have witnessed the act take place with absolute certainty. They must be in complete agreement about all the details of the act, and about its place, time, and circumstances. If their stories do not coincide, their testimony will be considered false. In this case, instead of the punishment for fornication being carried out on the accused, the prescribed punishment for bearing false witness will be carried out against the witnesses.

Allah says:
Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they did not produce witnesses, then with Allah they are the liars.

[Surah Nur 24: 13]


Those who accuse chaste women then do not come with four witnesses, flog them eighty lashes and never accept their testimony. They are the sinful ones.

[Qur'an 24:4]

It is obvious that the one who commits fornication in the plain sight of four witnesses whereby they can see every detail of his crime is a person who is flagrant in his behavior, who has little regard for religion or for social values, and if he is married, has little regard for his relationship with his wife.

This person fully deserves a severe punishment. At the same time, it must be known that there is no documented case in Muslim history to the extent of our knowledge where the prescribed punishment for fornication was carried out on the testimony of witnesses. In most cases, this punishment was carried out at the wish of the perpetrator in order that he may purify himself of the sin and as a means of repentance.


2. There must be no cause for doubt that can make the punishment fall away. If any doubt is present, or any way out is found for the accused, the punishment is not to be carried out, because Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: Do not carry out the prescribed punishments when there is doubt.

Some things should be made clear at this point. The first is that if a person becomes weak and falls into this sin, it is preferable for him to conceal it from others and not speak about it or admit to it. Instead, he should repent, seek Allah's forgiveness, and try to make up for it by doing righteous deeds. He should not despair of Allah's mercy.

This is because Allah's Messenger has said: Whoever comes with one of these filthy acts should conceal it as Allah has concealed it.

Allah says:
Those who, if they commit an indecency or wrong themselves, remember Allah and seek His forgiveness ? and whoever forgives save Allah? ? and do not persist in committing it, their reward is forgiveness from their Lord and gardens beneath which rivers flow.

O my servants who have transgressed against themselves, do not despair of Allah?s mercy. Verily, Allah forgives all sins.
It should also be observed that, likewise, if someone is to see another Muslim commit this act, then he should conceal it from the public. Allah's Messenger has said: Whoever conceals the fault of a Muslim, Allah will conceal his fault.

It must also be noted that Islam has made the home completely inviolable. It is not permissible to enter someone else?s home except with the permission of its occupants. Spying is likewise prohibited. Allah says:
O you who believe, do not enter homes other than your own until you have asked permission and greeted their inhabitants. This is better for you, in order that you may remember.
Also, if a person confesses to this sin of his own accord, it is necessary to determine if he is of sound mind and in possession of all of his faculties. It must also be certain that he is under no compulsion or coercion.

Beyond that, he is afforded the opportunity to retract his confession and he is encouraged to do so. If he retracts his statement, the prescribed punishment will not be carried out. This is what Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) did with M`iz when he confessed to committing adultery. Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) turned away from him many times while he repeatedly said: I have committed adultery, so purify me. Allah?s Messenger (peace be upon him) only turned his face away.

Then he said: Maybe you only kissed? and: Maybe you were drinking? In spite of this the man was insistent. Then, when the people were going to administer the punishment, he denied everything and fled. They informed Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) of this and he said: Why not leave him to repent so Allah can forgive him.



The wisdom behind the prescribed punishment for fornication and adultery:

If we look at all the punishments prescribed by Islamic Law, we see that they all have two inseparable qualities:

A. Excessive recourse to caution for the benefit of the accused and the large number of provisions that must be met before a punishment can be carried out.

B. The harshness and severity of the punishments.


This guarantees two things. First of all, it preserves the general security of society and reduces crime, due to the harshness of the punishments. The potential murderer who knows he will be killed, the potential thief who knows he will have his hand cut off, and the potential sexual offender who knows that he will be stoned or given a hundred lashes will think twice before going out and committing the crime. If, on the other hand, he knows that he will only be imprisoned for a few months or a few years, then he might not pay heed to the punishment and might not be discouraged from committing the crime.


Secondly, it safeguards the life of the accused and guarantees him that no punishment will be carried out until every excuse is exhausted and every reason for discarding the punishment is looked into.

If we look at fornication and adultery, we see that it is dealt with in this manner. The condition for establishing it four reliable witnesses is a very strict one, and the punishment is decisive.


If we look at the application of this punishment, we find many aspects of the wisdom behind it:

1.
It preserves general peace and security, because one of the most important motives for murder is the violation of someone?s honor. Applying the punishment against fornication causes a decrease in one of the major causes of violating people?s honor, which in turn, reduces the frequency of murder. This has a direct, positive effect on public safety.

2. It protects the family. The family enjoys a special esteem in Islam. The widespread practice of extramarital sex is destructive to the family, undermines its integrity, and destabilizes the relationships between its members. The severe punishment for fornication and adultery has the effect of reducing its occurrence, which has a direct, positive effect on the family in two ways. Firstly, the family of the one who commits adultery share in the experience of his punishment, so they are discouraged from committing the act themselves, which brings stability to the family. Likewise, the family who had been harmed by the act of adultery benefits by the reduced opportunity for this crime afforded by this punishment, so its stability is increased.


http://www.islamicboard.com/25327-post17.html
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asadxyz
06-07-2007, 07:50 PM
Assalaamo Alaikum:
After reading this post I conclude (if wrong please do correct)
The lady who is pregnant which I described in my previous post will not be punished because four witnesses are not their
Secondly ,strict standard of four witnesses practically makes it "impossible" to bring evidence against fornication or adultery.So such criminals cannot be punished in any islamic state.Don't you think this is strict standard of evidence is sort of free "licence " to committ these offences?
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- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 07:58 PM
:wasalamex


Allaah knows best, the reason why the number of witnesses is high may be so people don't easily accuse chaste women of commiting a major sin like that which would lead to their dishonor. Infact, we know that these verses about the witnesses were revealed at the time when the hypocrite - Abdullah ibn Ubayy accused Aa'isha (the wife of Allaah's Messenger - may Allaah be pleased with her) of this crime. So to accuse a believing woman who is known for her chastity is a major sin in the sight of Allaah.

Read more about the Slander against Aa'isha here.


Second, the punishment is severe for those who are willing to do it in the open, in public. We know that people may do the sin in their homes, but they won't ever want to do it in public out of fear of severe punishment. And this is what Islaam calls against, because we know that one of the reasons why the 'west' has alot of immoralities is because of the fact that the sins are allowed to be done in public, and others imitate them in that without fear of punishment.

Those who do the sin inside their homes secretly - their sin is between them and Allaah, and they might repent and change their ways. But atleast the sin doesn't become public, and others won't copy them in that still, which means that the immorality is hidden. But if immorality spreads - thats when society breaks down as a whole.



And Allaah knows best. :)
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alcurad
06-07-2007, 08:14 PM
salaam alaikum

i agree with ^ statement

also , i dont think the requirement for 4 witnesses is always necessary for the punishment to happen. it was just a way of making sure the act had occurred .and remember , we're talking about over 13 centuries ago where they didnt have say a DNA test and whatnot.

regards
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asadxyz
06-07-2007, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:wasalamex


Allaah knows best, the reason why the number of witnesses is high may be so people don't easily accuse chaste women of commiting a major sin like that which would lead to their dishonor. Infact, we know that these verses about the witnesses were revealed at the time when the hypocrite - Abdullah ibn Ubayy accused Aa'isha (the wife of Allaah's Messenger - may Allaah be pleased with her) of this crime. So to accuse a believing woman who is known for her chastity is a major sin in the sight of Allaah.

. :)
Asalaamo Alaikum:
This what my mind is thinking again and again (might be wrong).The actual Aya is :
وَالَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَأْتُوا بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاء فَاجْلِدُوهُمْ ثَمَانِينَ جَلْدَةً وَلَا تَقْبَلُوا لَهُمْ شَهَادَةً أَبَدًا وَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ﴿24:4﴾
(24:4) As for those persons who charge chaste women with false accusations but do not produce four witnesses, flog them with eighty stripes and never accept their evidence afterwards, for they themselves are transgressors.


Actually ,the evidence for four eye witnesses is for the charge against "chaste" persons not for every one.
Let us suppose reputation of some person is not good in this respect and the circumstancial and scientific evidence proves his crime ,then He/she should be punished accordingly ,no need of four eye witnesses because this is meant so that people should not charge those righteous people to disgrace or defame them.
This condition of four witnesses is for protection of righteous (People of good fame and character ) but to prove the crime.
Just a thought
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- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 08:20 PM
:salamext:


There are people who are sincere in their repentance (tawba) so Allaah knows best.


I'm not going to say anymore really because i don't know the answers to the other questions specifically, i'm sorry. Allaah knows best.
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asadxyz
06-07-2007, 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


There are people who are sincere in their repentance (tawba) so Allaah knows best.


I'm not going to say anymore really because i don't know the answers to the other questions specifically, i'm sorry. Allaah knows best.
Assalaamo Alaikum:
Ok that is fine ,this matter needs further study.Anyway but do help in one respect.
If you come across some narration in which the punishment of fornication or adultery is implented on the "basis of Four eye witness" ,please do post it.Because I am in search of some such narration .
Best of luck
Reply

- Qatada -
06-07-2007, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by asadxyz
Assalaamo Alaikum:
Ok that is fine ,this matter needs further study.Anyway but do help in one respect.
If you come across some narration in which the punishment of fornication or adultery is implented on the "basis of Four eye witness" ,please do post it.Because I am in search of some such narration .
Best of luck

:wasalamex


I think there hasn't ever been any within our history as bro Ansar stated:


Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
I know that for the person who confesses they are not put in a pit and are allowed to retract their confession at any time and escape the punishment. But not someone who is actually convicted by four witnesses in public, and we have never had such a case in all of islamic history.

And Allah knows best.
:w:
http://www.islamicboard.com/592099-post28.html



Allaah knows best.
Reply

nydweller
06-08-2007, 12:01 AM
Salam again,
So I have been pondering what I've read in this thread for the past few hours, and I am still having a lot of trouble reconciling what is supposed to be a peaceful way of life with recommendation of punishment that brutal, no matter how unlikely or impossible the circumstances. I am having a hard time seeing how beating someone with stones until they die from the injuries sustained is a reasonable punishment in any situation, no matter how many witnesses there may be.
It is stated that it is a deterrent. That I can get on board with, but the fact of the matter is that under some circumstances, regardless of how unlikely, the stoning to death of a young man or woman can take place.
We are supposed to represent peace and forgiveness, so how do we reconcile it with pieces of our laws such as this?
Think to yourself, would you be okay with throwing a palm sized stone at a female loved one if she had fornicated in a public setting and four, ten, or one hundred witnesses had seen her do so? Regardless of how impossible this may be to each and every one of us, would you be able to justify throwing stone after stone at her till she died from the wounds?

I would like to hear thoughts on this.

Wasalam
Reply

asadxyz
06-08-2007, 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by nydweller
Salam again,
So I have been pondering what I've read in this thread for the past few hours, and I am still having a lot of trouble reconciling what is supposed to be a peaceful way of life with recommendation of punishment that brutal, no matter how unlikely or impossible the circumstances. I am having a hard time seeing how beating someone with stones until they die from the injuries sustained is a reasonable punishment in any situation, no matter how many witnesses there may be.
It is stated that it is a deterrent. That I can get on board with, but the fact of the matter is that under some circumstances, regardless of how unlikely, the stoning to death of a young man or woman can take place.
We are supposed to represent peace and forgiveness, so how do we reconcile it with pieces of our laws such as this?
Think to yourself, would you be okay with throwing a palm sized stone at a female loved one if she had fornicated in a public setting and four, ten, or one hundred witnesses had seen her do so? Regardless of how impossible this may be to each and every one of us, would you be able to justify throwing stone after stone at her till she died from the wounds?

I would like to hear thoughts on this.

Wasalam
Assalamo Alaikum:
First of all I apologize for one thing that I do not know your religion.Whether you are talking from a Muslim point of view or a non muslim.'
If you are a muslim ,then one thing is sure that one has to accept any legistation which is ordered by Almight Allah or the Holy prophet.(I am not talking particularly about this stoning punishment).The Holy Quran says:

الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ وَلَا تَأْخُذْكُم بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَائِفَةٌ مِّنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ﴿24:2﴾
(24:2) The woman and the man guilty of fornication, flog each one of them with a hundred stripes *2 - and let not any pity for them restrain you in regard to a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day, *3 and let, some of the believers witness the punishment inflicted on them. *4

If one starts thinking on these lines then how will be punishment of murder can be enforced which is death.
You may argue that some counteries have abolished the death punishment from their legislation thinking that it is inhuman punishment.
But abloshing this death penalty by itself "inhuman'.How ,look at this scenario
A person who is a serial killer and brutal ,takes a friend of him along with him and enters a house and kills all members of the family ruthlessly.Is this attitude of him a "human " attitude.Does he need any sympathy?? If he is not hanged because of these prevailing "human rights" then ,don't you think the rights of that murdered family are violated.Is this attitude to spare the criminal human or inhuman.
Next scenario ,the same type of person commits a gang rape with a lady (forcefully ) ,if he is stoned to death how can you call it as "inhuman".Was his crime "human".
Islam is based on "Adle" (عدل ).
A principle has been laid down:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالأُنثَى بِالأُنثَى فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاء إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ذَلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ﴿2:178﴾
(2:178) O Believers, the lawn *176 of retribution has been prescribed for you in cases of murder; if a free man commits a murder, the free man shall he punished for it and a slave for a slave : likewise if a woman is guilty of murder the same shall he accountable for it. *177 But in case the injured brother *178 is willing to show leniency to the murderer, the blood money should he decided in accordance with the common law *179 and the murderer should pay it in a genuine way. This is an allowance and mercy from your Lord. Now there shall be a painful torment for anyone who transgresses the limits after this. *180 O men of understanding.
I have no idea why there is so much "hoo'haa " on islamic punishments.
Ton of biological weapons = which make millions of people incurably sick
Tons of chemical weapons = which can paralyze and suffocate millions of people
Tons of Daisy Cutter bombs = which can penetrate even Hardest possible rocks
Tons of Atomic bombs and Hydrogen bombs and neutron bombs whic can annihate the whole world in a fraction of a second (one scene was created in 1945 on Heroshima and Nagasaki).
Is all these weapon arsenal for the "service" of humanity and these are "human"??
How much protest against them has been launched in the media.
Or only Islamic punishments are the only "issue" in this world at which whole world media is directing its guns.
Just curious.
Best of luck
Reply

Malaikah
06-08-2007, 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by asadxyz
Secondly ,let us suppose ,a woman is married and her husband is abroad for two yrs.She becomes pregnant.So
Naturally she has committed adultery
:sl:

I have one word for you- RAPE.

Originally Posted by asadxyz
Actually ,the evidence for four eye witnesses is for the charge against "chaste" persons not for every one.
Let us suppose reputation of some person is not good in this respect and the circumstancial and scientific evidence proves his crime ,then He/she should be punished accordingly ,no need of four eye witnesses because this is meant so that people should not charge those righteous people to disgrace or defame them.
This condition of four witnesses is for protection of righteous (People of good fame and character ) but to prove the crime.
Just a thought
As far as I am aware, proof other than four witnesses or confession can not result with stoning being applied, but there can be other punishments such as imprisonment...
Reply

asadxyz
06-08-2007, 01:34 AM
Assalaamo Alaikum:
As far as I am aware, proof other than four witnesses or confession can not result with stoning being applied, but there can be other punishments such as imprisonment...
__________________

One crime cannot have two different punishments.
Crime is either comitted or not comitted (proved or not proved).There is nothing in between .
If comitted (proved) = Actual punishment implemented
If not comitted (not proved) = No punishment at all
which law you are stating??
Probably you are stating to those crimes in which Shariah has not put any punishment and left on the discretion of the "Qazi".He can punish according to his discretion.But about Hudood ,how can you change them.
Just a thought
Best of luck
Reply

barney
06-08-2007, 02:02 AM
It's heartening that a small percentage of muslims are questioning the validity of stoning to death as a punishment in the modern world.

Looking at society and life in the 600's or even the 1600's it is a perfectly acceptable form of penal coercion.
In Britain we hanged our last witch in the 1800's, burned at the stake in the 1700's and hung drew and quartered in the 1600's.

God knows what we did in 600, probably flayed people alive. The British army only ceased flogging in the late 1800's but it was down to 6 strokes of the whip.

I think society has progressed in the west. I'm actually in favor of the death penalty for pre-meditated murder. I'm in a minority.

We are, or should not be here, debating that "ahh well it's only a few people really", we should be deciding if it's a acceptable form of moral behaviour.

Easy answer is yes. The Prophet decreed it. A muslim cant argue against that. They can argue that it's acceptable because fornication is worthy of the death penalty. For a lot of Muslims brought up in western society, this is ringing very hollow. Escpecially if you see what stoning entails. it's not a rock killing someone cleanly, its bodies being ripped to peices by a baying crowd for showing "weakness".

The "problem" is that you cant change whats written, and so no matter how much mankind progresses in culture, art, learning and technology, you will under Islam have teenage girls being ripped to bits by rocks.

Not an easy one for, otherwise peaceful, Muslims to deal with. I wish you all the best in coming to terms with it in your own conciounce.
:skeleton:
Reply

nydweller
06-08-2007, 02:02 AM
Firstly, I am indeed Muslim, but I like to investigate what I believe in and the legislations we are commanded to follow. Since Islam is meant to be a logical religion, it does stand up to scrutiny and that is the purpose of this thread.
Secondly, just to clarify, I am not against the death penalty, and feel like is befitting for many crimes some of which you have mentioned. It is the brutality of the method of execution that I have a problem with. There are other ways to execute a person, such as beheading, hanging, etc. Why stoning to death? Why must we be brutal in the administering of what is supposed to be a just punishment? Additionally, there is a bit of a difference between a serial killer, gang rapist, and the scenario being discussed in this thread, no?

Additionally, you have not answered my hypothetical question about whether you would be okay with throwing stones at a female loved one if she had done something similar and had enough witnesses to prove her guilt. Would you be able to go through with this, without feeling bad?


Originally Posted by asadxyz
Assalamo Alaikum:
First of all I apologize for one thing that I do not know your religion.Whether you are talking from a Muslim point of view or a non muslim.'
If you are a muslim ,then one thing is sure that one has to accept any legistation which is ordered by Almight Allah or the Holy prophet.(I am not talking particularly about this stoning punishment).The Holy Quran says:

الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ وَلَا تَأْخُذْكُم بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَائِفَةٌ مِّنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ﴿24:2﴾
(24:2) The woman and the man guilty of fornication, flog each one of them with a hundred stripes *2 - and let not any pity for them restrain you in regard to a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day, *3 and let, some of the believers witness the punishment inflicted on them. *4

If one starts thinking on these lines then how will be punishment of murder can be enforced which is death.
You may argue that some counteries have abolished the death punishment from their legislation thinking that it is inhuman punishment.
But abloshing this death penalty by itself "inhuman'.How ,look at this scenario
A person who is a serial killer and brutal ,takes a friend of him along with him and enters a house and kills all members of the family ruthlessly.Is this attitude of him a "human " attitude.Does he need any sympathy?? If he is not hanged because of these prevailing "human rights" then ,don't you think the rights of that murdered family are violated.Is this attitude to spare the criminal human or inhuman.
Next scenario ,the same type of person commits a gang rape with a lady (forcefully ) ,if he is stoned to death how can you call it as "inhuman".Was his crime "human".
Islam is based on "Adle" (عدل ).
A principle has been laid down:
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ كُتِبَ عَلَيْكُمُ الْقِصَاصُ فِي الْقَتْلَى الْحُرُّ بِالْحُرِّ وَالْعَبْدُ بِالْعَبْدِ وَالأُنثَى بِالأُنثَى فَمَنْ عُفِيَ لَهُ مِنْ أَخِيهِ شَيْءٌ فَاتِّبَاعٌ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَأَدَاء إِلَيْهِ بِإِحْسَانٍ ذَلِكَ تَخْفِيفٌ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ﴿2:178﴾
(2:178) O Believers, the lawn *176 of retribution has been prescribed for you in cases of murder; if a free man commits a murder, the free man shall he punished for it and a slave for a slave : likewise if a woman is guilty of murder the same shall he accountable for it. *177 But in case the injured brother *178 is willing to show leniency to the murderer, the blood money should he decided in accordance with the common law *179 and the murderer should pay it in a genuine way. This is an allowance and mercy from your Lord. Now there shall be a painful torment for anyone who transgresses the limits after this. *180 O men of understanding.
I have no idea why there is so much "hoo'haa " on islamic punishments.
Ton of biological weapons = which make millions of people incurably sick
Tons of chemical weapons = which can paralyze and suffocate millions of people
Tons of Daisy Cutter bombs = which can penetrate even Hardest possible rocks
Tons of Atomic bombs and Hydrogen bombs and neutron bombs whic can annihate the whole world in a fraction of a second (one scene was created in 1945 on Heroshima and Nagasaki).
Is all these weapon arsenal for the "service" of humanity and these are "human"??
How much protest against them has been launched in the media.
Or only Islamic punishments are the only "issue" in this world at which whole world media is directing its guns.
Just curious.
Best of luck
Reply

asadxyz
06-08-2007, 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by nydweller
Firstly, I am indeed Muslim, but I like to investigate what I believe in and the legislations we are commanded to follow. Since Islam is meant to be a logical religion, it does stand up to scrutiny and that is the purpose of this thread.
Secondly, just to clarify, I am not against the death penalty, and feel like is befitting for many crimes some of which you have mentioned. It is the brutality of the method of execution that I have a problem with. There are other ways to execute a person, such as beheading, hanging, etc. Why stoning to death? Why must we be brutal in the administering of what is supposed to be a just punishment? Additionally, there is a bit of a difference between a serial killer, gang rapist, and the scenario being discussed in this thread, no?

Additionally, you have not answered my hypothetical question about whether you would be okay with throwing stones at a female loved one if she had done something similar and had enough witnesses to prove her guilt. Would you be able to go through with this, without feeling bad?
Asalaamo Alaikum:
Be sure one thing that religions are divine knowledge and these not based on human thoughts that we start measuring its rules and regulation on the basis of our own wisdom and thought. Prophethood starts at the point where human wisdom ends.
No doubt Islam is called a Deen of nature but it does not mean we standardize its values and rulings according to our sentiments.
Sentiments tell you do not kill your relatives but when the question of Allah's Deen comes then Companions of the Holy Prophet encounter with their own relativs (blood relations) and fight occurs.
This is question of "Emaan".
As you are posing question of Brutality ,these are rulings of Islam.If anyone thinks that these inhuman ,he is not forced to embrace Islam.But ,after knowing all Pros and Cons enters into Islam ,he is bound to abide by and accept them as such.
My Question: why are your sympathies with the criminals ??
Law means :If --------,then ---------.
If someone wants to avoid consequences of "then ",he should avoid" If ".
E.g. If some country has the law :
If you violate the traffic signal intentionally ,then you will be stoned to death.

If I want to avoid the consequences of this law I should not violate the traffic signal,instead of cursing and criticizing it.So simple it is.
Being an extreme penalty it has some sentimental aspects. But,according to those circles by which you seem to be impressed ,even wearing Veils by the Islamic women is an "inhuman matter".
Attacking trading center is "inhuman" but killing thousands of Muslims is exactly "human".
Anyway best of luck
Reply

barney
06-08-2007, 03:05 AM
Originally Posted by asadxyz
Asalaamo Alaikum:

As you are posing question of Brutality ,these are rulings of Islam.If anyone thinks that these inhuman ,he is not forced to embrace Islam.But ,after knowing all Pros and Cons enters into Islam ,he is bound to abide by and accept them as such.
Fine for Converts.
So a child growing up as a muslim is not forced to embrace Islam?

Whats the proceedure for leaving the faith please?
Reply

noodles
06-08-2007, 03:08 AM
Edit
Reply

nydweller
06-08-2007, 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by asadxyz

If I want to avoid the consequences of this law I should not violate the traffic signal,instead of cursing and criticizing it.So simple it is.
Being an extreme penalty it has some sentimental aspects. But,according to those circles by which you seem to be impressed ,even wearing Veils by the Islamic women is an "inhuman matter".
Attacking trading center is "inhuman" but killing thousands of Muslims is exactly "human".
Anyway best of luck

where have i said i am impressed by any circles? you fail to read my posts in their entirety. i am not refuting or failing to accept any Islamic rulings. I am simply scrutinizing. it is always said that Islam should stand up to logical scrutiny, and that is what I am trying to do.
Reply

barney
06-08-2007, 05:19 AM
Originally Posted by asadxyz
Attacking trading center is "inhuman" but killing thousands of Muslims is exactly "human".
Anyway best of luck
It's back to the old chestnut of intent.

Hundreds of innocent Muslims have been killed in crossfire, BY ACCIDENT, from US and perhaps even UK bullets, Although thats doubtful.
Tens of thousands have been shot DELIBERATLY or blown to shreds by Muslim death squads and terrorists.
Three thousand Yank civilians were not killed by accident. It was a deliberate attack.

If the west could have acheived it's aim without a drop of innocent blood spilled it would have.
If the Terrorists could acheive their aim....they would kill and not stop killing anyone in their path, on buses, tube trains, schools, hospitals......

Just for once,get off this "the west thinks it's ok to kill muslim innocents"...if we did think that, we would carpet bomb a city evry day into tiny atoms.
We have nukes. Why havnt we "Wiped iran off the map" or "Driven the Saudi's into the sea"
Reply

syilla
06-08-2007, 05:22 AM
you can try reading this too...

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...theocracy.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...ariah-law.html

For your research I would strongly recommend the material found on http://www.islamtoday.com . They probably have the most detailed information on Islamic criminal law in english on the internet and the scholars who provide the fatawa are familiar with the Saudi laws as well, and consequently they would be able to provide an authentic comparison if you asked them about any specific issue.
posted by bro al-ansar

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...countries.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ariah-law.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...0-stoning.html :thumbs_up
Reply

- Qatada -
06-08-2007, 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by asadxyz
*2 - and let not any pity for them restrain you in regard to a matter prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day, *3 and let, some of the believers witness the punishment inflicted on them. *4

:salamext:


Just to clarify akhi :) the pity doesn't mean we shouldn't feel sorry for them;


[وَلاَ تَأْخُذْكُمْ بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِى دِينِ اللَّهِ]


(Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah,) Meaning, with a ruling prescribed by Allah. So the meaning of the Ayah is: "Do not feel too sorry for them where the laws of Allah are established.'' This does not mean that we should not naturally feel pity when carrying out the punishment. What is prohibited here is the kind of pity that may make the judge ignore the punishment altogether.


Tafsir Ibn Kathir Surah Nur [24]
Reply

- Qatada -
06-08-2007, 11:37 AM
Barney, please don't push the thread onto other topics when the thread is about fornication, if you want to read about the ruling on apostasy so much, then simply go to the thread:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...-apostasy.html


Anymore arguments about that will be deleted, and that refutation is sufficient to clear up your misconceptions inshaa Allaah (God willing.)
Reply

Malaikah
06-08-2007, 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by barney
The "problem" is that you cant change whats written, and so no matter how much mankind progresses in culture, art, learning and technology, you will under Islam have teenage girls being ripped to bits by rocks.
Teenage girls? How many teenage girls do you know of are even married, to be able to commit adultery?:skeleton: (and in front of four rightoues witnesses too).

By the way, I hope you aren't intention ignoring the fact that the punishment is applied to men as well?
Reply

- Qatada -
06-08-2007, 12:17 PM
:salamext: brother nydweller. :)


Regarding the issue of stoning to death, we've clarified it quite abit. Have you not read the fact that the ruling for such a crime requires 4 witnesses? When for other crimes usually only 2 witnesses are required? Why is this rule so different? There has to be a reason.

Why is the punishment so severe? Sexuality when becoming widespread in a society causes a huge amount of corruption. Let's see what the Islamic Shari'a tries to uphold as a whole;
Since the Islamic legal injunctions are aimed at achieving human welfare, they can all be referred back to universal principles which are necessary for human welfare to be secured. These universal principles are:

1. The preservation of life.
2. The preservation of religion.
3. The preservation of reason.
4. The preservation of lineage.
5. The preservation of property.

The Islamic penal system is aimed at preserving these five universal necessities. To preserve life, it prescribes the law of retribution. To preserve religion, it prescribes the punishment for apostasy. To preserve reason, it prescribes the punishment for drinking. To preserve lineage, it prescribes the punishment for fornication. To preserve wealth, it prescribes the punishment for theft. To protect all of them, it prescribed the punishment for highway robbery.

It should therefore become clear to us why the crimes for which Islam for which the Law has prescribed fixed punishments are as follows:

1. Transgression against life (murder or assault).
2. Transgression against property (theft).
3. Transgression against lineage (fornication and false accusations of adultery).
4. Transgression against reason (using intoxicants).
5. Transgression against religion (apostasy).
6. Transgression against all of these universal needs (highway robbery).

http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...ent-islam.html

The issue of lineage is extremely important in society because it keeps a family secure, and if the families are secure, then society as a whole will be more secure. If society as a whole is more secure, then the nation as a whole can be secure from the inside. And if this is the case - then many people within that nation are safe.

Most nations only break down once there is internal conflict, and internal conflict starts off from the home. If someone has an illegitimate child, do you think the child's going to feel happy? Infact that child may get pyschological problems because he/she doesn't really belong to a legitimate father, this may make him feel rejected and if this was to be on a greater scale - the harm would be much greater as a whole.


To stop the harms from falling into place, Islaam has made severe penalties for those who wish to transgress them. Why is it that in the US the rate of crime is much more higher compared to an Islamic state who applies these strict laws? That's because a person getting shot in the UK will only get 25years max, maybe even parole. What happens in an Islamic state? Death penalty in some circumstances, so the person thinks twice before doing something that major. Whereas in the UK, the person doesn't mind giving up 25years or less, so long as he took someone elses life?

When another guy sees that this man got parole and never even did full time, what does he do? He gets happy that he might be able to get away from a similar crime also, so he kills another for revenge, what happens to him? Same thing. This continues and spreads like wild fire, they all know they're going to escape anyway, so they're ready to spread this corruption so long as they get their revenge (maybe it's for some drugs or whatever.)


These guys would think twice if they knew they would get the death penalty, but where there aren't strict laws - then the person doesn't even care, and corruption spreads. When evil becomes widespread in a society and the people don't repent to Allaah - Allaah may send them a Messenger to convey the message clearly to them - giving them glad tidings for their obedience to Him, and a punishment if they don't obey and do good, Allaah trials them so they may turn back to Him, and if they still reject and don't change their ways for the sake of Allaah - Allaah destroys them, and the punishment of the hereafter is much greater than the punishment of this life, yet Allaah has a great reward for those who obey and do good.



Now that we've understood some basic issues, you said that it doesn't matter how much witnesses there are. But then you have to question, do you think it's okay for a guy and a female to have sexual intercourse in public for show, infront of 100 people and Islaam allows that? Do you think that's the idea of morality?

If we're to say that 100 witnesses isn't equal to 4 witnesses, then we have to question why there has never been no recorded event in our Islamic history when there have been 4 witnesses seeing the actual penetration take place? Therefore they never got stoned due to that 4 witnesses ruling.

Which leads to the point about throwing a stone at an fornicator, this person 1) Either did it out of showing off their immorality - which would teach others a lesson that they shouldn't show off their immorality and sin. 2) Something like this has never been recorded within the 14 century history, which means that it would be extremely rare for it to occur. If we're to use fractions, its like 0/1420 right?



Also, another thing that we don't realise is that just because sexual immorality has become so common in the world today, we don't find it so shocking. Yet this is a huge sin in the sight of Allaah, it is one of the major sins. Allaah has placed it near to murder in the Qur'an:
“And those who invoke not any other god along with Allaah, nor kill such life as Allaah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse – and whoever does this shall receive the punishment.

The torment will be doubled to him on the Day of Resurrection, and he will abide therein in disgrace; except those who repent and believe and do righteous deeds, for those Allaah will change their sins into good deeds, and Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

[Qur'an al-Furqaan 25:68-70]
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=3013&ln=eng&txt=


So the act of fornication is a great sin in the sight of Allaah, and no matter what our society may tell us. That doesn't mean that it's always right, since society has always changed over time, even at the time of Allaah's Messenger (peace be upon him) zina/fornication was widespread, especially before he recieved the message.

But that still didn't mean it was right, we judge our "wrongs/rights" and morality by what Allaah and His Messenger has decreed, because if we simply fall prey to society, then that's when we give up our religion for them, and they won't be pleased at all unless we give it up altogether and turn into one of them, the slaves of society and oppressive rulers.



Wasn't it this society who said just 100 years ago that a woman couldn't have her own property? Wasn't it this society which we all 'look upto' that used to say that it's the muslims who are evil since they allow polygamy of upto 4 wives (if we can deal with them justly), yet what does the society do itself? Allow a guy to have 1000 girlfriends, but if he marries 2, that's not allowed? Why is that? Maybe it's because the guys are the legislators of the rules here, and the pregnant 'mistress' doesn't even have to be supported by the guy she got pregnant off?

Or how about a woman who's married to a guy and her husband chooses to run off with another guy in a gay relationship, and she doesn't have any rights to stop that? Instead she lives at home looking after the children, without having any right to stop that immorality.



It is Allaah who defines what morality is, and He has sent His Messenger with the truth to convey it clearly to us. If we are slaves to society and run around giving up everything of our Islaam, until we turn into one of them - do you think that's going to make us special? Or do you think they're just going to abuse us more since we've given up our morals altogether now?

Or are we going to stand up for the truth and be strangers - like the true Messengers' of Allaah were -, since the real home for the truthful is the Paradise in the presence of Allaah, His Messengers' and the righteous.



And Allaah knows best.



Peace brother.
Reply

nydweller
06-08-2007, 01:20 PM
Salam, brother Fi_Sabilillah.

A wonderful answer you have provided, but I would like to clarify a few things.

1) Just because I have an issue with this specific decreed punishment, you all have assumed that I look up to western society, or hold it to be better than Islamic society. If you read through my posts again, you will notice that nowhere have I mentioned western or modern society. I simply have a problem with the brutality inherent to this form of punishment. Please do not assume that I have a problem with it only because the western world considers it to be brutal. I'm not an American now nor have I ever been even though I do now reside in new york. I've lived in Pakistan and Saudi for the major part of my life. What you say here is inaccurate:
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Wasn't it this society who said just 100 years ago that a woman couldn't have her own property? Wasn't it this society which we all 'look upto' that used to say that it's the muslims who are evil since they allow polygamy of upto 4 wives (if we can deal with them justly), yet what does the society do itself? Allow a guy to have 1000 girlfriends, but if he marries 2, that's not allowed? Why is that? Maybe it's because the guys are the legislators of the rules here, and the pregnant 'mistress' doesn't even have to be supported by the guy she got pregnant off?
2) Regarding this:
Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext: brother nydweller. :)

Now that we've understood some basic issues, you said that it doesn't matter how much witnesses there are. But then you have to question, do you think it's okay for a guy and a female to have sexual intercourse in public for show, infront of 100 people and Islaam allows that? Do you think that's the idea of morality?
I never stated that I thought it was okay, nor did I say that is my idea of morality. Keep in mind that I am indeed a practicing Muslim and have been for my whole life. The issue I have here is not with Islam's guide to what is moral and what is not. The issue is a lot more specific than fornication itself. My issue is ONLY with the METHOD of killing prescribed in a punishment. I would have no problem with the beheading or hanging of fornicators in Islam. I have a problem only with the stoning to death itself. I suppose this is something that nobody can really help me with, as what's prescribed is prescribed and I must either accept everything in Islam or nothing at all.

Also, nobody has yet answered my hypothetical question, if your female loved one, such as sister, cousin, etc, had committed this crime, would you be okay with throwing a palm sized stone at her head? Would you be able to do this knowing that it is your command from Allah?
Reply

- Qatada -
06-08-2007, 01:31 PM
:salamext:


I'm sorry brother, i never really aimed them points at you specifically because alhamdulillah we all are learning, i was just trying to make a point. My intention wasn't to target you, and again i'm sorry if it seemed that way.


I think the main issue is brother, that the punishment is severe so people don't do it and make it public especially. Think about it, a couple who say they love each other when it's illegitimate may be prepared to die for the sake of their relationship right? (a relationship which isn't permissible.)

Now if they were to be simply beheaded, don't you think many people would be prepared to actually do that? Because we know without a doubt, love can make someone do crazy things. So if one was to be simply beheaded, then they may be prepared to actually fornicate (in public, for what reason i don't know?)


Regarding the issue of stoning someone who did the act in public, clearly - then you have to question why they would truelly do it in public? What was their intention? It can't be anything but an evil intention if something so explicit is done clearly infront of 4 witnesses.


The ruling is so specific, and the crime in of itself has to have accurate accounts, and if that's not the case - like we've seen there havn't been any recorded events in our Islamic history - then how can we say that what the fornicator is doing is right?


Also, nobody has yet answered my hypothetical question, if your female loved one, such as sister, cousin, etc, had committed this crime, would you be okay with throwing a palm sized stone at her head? Would you be able to do this knowing that it is your command from Allah?

Like we've mentioned, there have been no recorded events in history. And if the person never wanted to stone that certain person - is there any mention of family members having an obligation to do that act?

And even so - you have to question again why there would be 4 witnesses watching that action take place at all? Was it due to the immorality of the fornicators (wanting to do it infront of them), and if not that - then why are they doing it in public? Even when they know the actual ruling for it?
Reply

nydweller
06-08-2007, 01:34 PM
Thank you for your timely responses. JazakAllah.


Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
:salamext:


I'm sorry brother, i never really aimed them points at you specifically because alhamdulillah we all are learning, i was just trying to make a point. My intention wasn't to target you, and again i'm sorry if it seemed that way.


I think the main issue is brother, that the punishment is severe so people don't do it and make it public especially. Think about it, a couple who say they love each other when it's illegitimate may be prepared to die for the sake of their relationship right? (a relationship which isn't permissible.)

Now if they were to be simply beheaded, don't you think many people would be prepared to actually do that? Because we know without a doubt, love can make someone do crazy things. So if one was to be simply beheaded, then they may be prepared to actually fornicate (in public, for what reason i don't know?)


Regarding the issue of stoning someone who did the act in public, clearly - then you have to question why they would truelly do it in public? What was their intention? It can't be anything but an evil intention if something so explicit is done clearly infront of 4 witnesses.


The ruling is so specific, and the crime in of itself has to have accurate accounts, and if that's not the case - like we've seen there havn't been any recorded events in our Islamic history - then how can we say that what the fornicator is doing is right?





Like we've mentioned, there have been no recorded events in history. And if the person never wanted to stone that certain person - is there any mention of family members having an obligation to do that act?

And even so - you have to question again why there would be 4 witnesses watching that action take place at all? Was it due to the immorality of the fornicators (wanting to do it infront of them), and if not that - then why are they doing it in public? Even when they know the actual ruling for it?
Reply

- Qatada -
06-08-2007, 01:38 PM
Just to clarify one more thing, some people may claim that others may have a hidden camera in the room, then 4 witnesses may see the event take place and the people be punished.

But i found a fatwa which states that this method isn't sufficient:


How can zinaa be proven?

Question:
I know that in the past if someone has committed adultery, they had to bring 4 witnesses .
My question is can we prove that today by using latest scientific methods as the DNA test, instead of bringing 4 witnesses.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

According to Islamic sharee’ah, zinaa can only be proven by clear evidence, namely the testimony of four trustworthy and sound witnesses who saw it actually happen, or by confession of guilt, or by the woman becoming pregnant. It cannot be proven by DNA testing or by use of cameras and videos in place of the things mentioned above. And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid
http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=6926&ln=eng&txt=
Reply

asadxyz
06-08-2007, 04:13 PM
Assalaamo Alaikum:

After reading these "Fatwas" ,I think I should stop using "Sahar/IFtar " time table in Ramadan because Quranic Aya is :
وَكُلُواْ وَاشْرَبُواْ حَتَّى يَتَبَيَّنَ لَكُمُ الْخَيْطُ الأَبْيَضُ مِنَ الْخَيْطِ الأَسْوَدِ
And Eat and drink till the white thread can be differentiated from the black thread (2:187)

Two Scenarios:
No:1
Suppose a person X committs Zina ;
The crime is proved by
Four eye witness = Islamic punishment implented

No:2
Suppose another person Y comitts Zina
One eye witnesses =available
+ cicumstantial evidence + DNA test + Video film = This person is acquitted respectfully and the eye witness is punished because of "Qazaf".
It means that one eye -witness in spite of being true will not dare to give evidence. (because of fear of punishment)

No:3
A lady is raped .She recongnises the offender .Goes to the Qazi against the offender.Rape is proved by
DNA test + cicumstantial evidence.But
a:Criminal is acquitted because of lack of four eye-witnesses
b:Lady is punished for Qazaf

إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ﴿2:156﴾

I wonder if this is the real spirit of Islamic laws .
May Allah Bless all of us.
best of luck
Reply

Malaikah
06-09-2007, 02:45 AM
asadxyz, no one is going to be able to give you an answer to every single scenario you can think of. We are not experts in criminal law. Heck, I can't even tell you how trials for rape work in the country I live in.

If you truly want real answers go to a person how is educated to be a judge n Islam law.

One eye witnesses =available
+ cicumstantial evidence + DNA test + Video film = This person is acquitted respectfully and the eye witness is punished because of "Qazaf".
It means that one eye -witness in spite of being true will not dare to give evidence. (because of fear of punishment)
Yes, exactly. The spirit of Islamic law isn't to go LOOKING for people doing wrong! Why should we expose people who have sinned unnecessarily when the problem can be fixed in better ways without everyone finding out?
Reply

asadxyz
06-09-2007, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
asadxyz, no one is going to be able to give you an answer to every single scenario you can think of. We are not experts in criminal law. Heck, I can't even tell you how trials for rape work in the country I live in.

If you truly want real answers go to a person how is educated to be a judge n Islam law.
?
Assalaamo Alaikum;
Surely ,if you can post some URL which can help me out for my Question that will be a great favor for me.
Secondly these scenarios are logical deduction of the Fatwas which have been posted regarding this matter.

No doubt scholars have their very high place because of their knowledge in this field and the Holy Quran orders us to ask them if we do not know.

But as all doctors are not equally competent ,,it is not essential that all Fatwas displayed on www.blablabla etc are true Islamic representation.
That is why Allah Almighty has ordered all the Muslims to ponder over the Holy Quran which we do not do.
Best of luck
Reply

Nabooly
06-09-2007, 04:03 AM
Also, id like to add that any punishment in the afterlife is FAR worse than anything here on earth.

I remember something i read on here. A women came to the Prophet (pbuh) and told him she commited zina. He told her she can either endure the punishment or repent for the sin she commited. She came back to him and opted for the punishment, she couldnt live with herself because she commited this sin. So these people do have the choice of repenting or taking the punishment.

And the girl is Yezeidi, and Yezeidis do not like Muslims. She loved the muslim guy and she went to a Sheikh. Her family called her and told her to come back home, and that they had forgiven her. She came home and the men in her family dragged her outside.

Anyway, Allah yer7amha.
Reply

Musalmaan
06-09-2007, 08:17 AM
DNA Analysis as Court Evidence in Criminal Cases!

By Sheikh Nizâr al-Shu`aybî, presiding judge at the Shaqîq City Courthouse



In order to properly discuss the question of using DNA as evidence in an Islamic court of law, we must first understand that there are two types of punishments in Islamic Law: prescribed punishments and discretionary punishments.
First there are prescribed punishments, such as stoning the married adulterer, flogging and exiling the unmarried adulterer, flogging the imbiber of liquor, and the punishment for highway robbery. These punishments are explicitly stated in the sacred texts. The judge cannot modify these punishments, reduce them, or increase them. Whenever a person is found guilty of a crime that has a prescribed punishment in Islamic Law, the prescribed punishment must be carried out to the letter.
This kind of punishment can only be carried out on the basis of a confession or the testimony of reliable witnesses. These punishments cannot be applied on the basis of DNA analysis or other forms of evidence. These punishments are Allah's right on the people, and Allah's rights are based in forgiveness. This is why we have the legal principle which states: "Prescribed punishments must be waived when there are doubts surrounding the case".
With DNA testing, there is always a chance for a mistake in the analysis or in the collection of the sample. Furthermore, Islam seeks to conceal people's mistakes. Therefore, it is better to rely on reliable witnesses than on DNA analysis. It is worth noting that even when a person clearly confesses to committing a crime then retracts his confession, his retraction will be accepted. He will not be subjected to the prescribed punishment for the crime he had originally confessed to committing. Since the prescribed punishment cannot be applied to him, his punishment must either be modified to a lesser one at the judge's discretion or he may be released without punishment.
This brings us to discretionary punishments. These are the punishments for legal violations where the method of punishment and its specification are not prescribed by Islamic law. It is up to the judge to decide on the punishment at his discretion, taking many factors into consideration. He will look towards the prescribed punishment as a standard of comparison for these undetermined punishments. The judge, in such cases, is free to use modern, technological means of producing evidences against the criminal.
In a case where someone is accused of a crime for which there is a prescribed punishment and is not convicted by the proper number of reliable witnesses or by a confession but is found guilty by way of a DNA test, the judge will not be able to carry out the prescribed punishment upon him. However, depending on the strength of the DNA evidence, the judge may apply a lesser discretionary punishment. The same can be said for other forms of evidence.
It is worth saying that it is preferable to avoid investigations of this type unless the crime in question affects public security.
The Islamic Law Complex of the Islamic World League has decreed that: "…there is no legal objection to using DNA analysis in criminal investigations and in considering it as evidence in the crimes that do not obligate the court to carry out a prescribed punishment. This can be gleaned from the hadîth "Avoid prescribed punishments when there are doubts". This would offer justice and security for society and help to ensure that the criminal is punished and the innocent released, which is an important objective of Islamic Law."
There are many possible uses for DNA evidence. The following have been approved by the Islamic World League:
[Source: seventh decree of the Sixteenth Session of the Islamic World League]
1. To resolve disputes over kinship for any reason such as overturning evidence or in cases of mistaken marriage between siblings.
2. To resolve disputes over the parentage of newborn babies born in hospitals and of test-tube babies.
3. To identify missing babies after disasters and wars, unknown corpses, and prisoners of war.

And Allah knows best
Reply

asadxyz
06-09-2007, 10:07 AM
Asallaamo Alaikum;
Dear you said :
This brings us to discretionary punishments. These are the punishments for legal violations where the method of punishment and its specification are not prescribed by Islamic law. It is up to the judge to decide on the punishment at his discretion, taking many factors into consideration. He will look towards the prescribed punishment as a standard of comparison for these undetermined punishments. The judge, in such cases, is free to use modern, technological means of producing evidences against the criminal.
In a case where someone is accused of a crime for which there is a prescribed punishment and is not convicted by the proper number of reliable witnesses or by a confession but is found guilty by way of a DNA test, the judge will not be able to carry out the prescribed punishment upon him. However, depending on the strength of the DNA evidence, the judge may apply a lesser discretionary punishment. The same can be said for other forms of evidence.
It is worth saying that it is preferable to avoid investigations of this type unless the crime in question affects public security.
]

The Islamic Law Complex of the Islamic World League has decreed that: "…there is no legal objection to using DNA analysis in criminal investigations and in considering it as evidence in the crimes that do not obligate the court to carry out a prescribed punishment. This can be gleaned from the hadîth "Avoid prescribed punishments when there are doubts". This would offer justice and security for society and help to ensure that the criminal is punished and the innocent released, which is an important objective of Islamic Law."
Of course this senstence is very important:
Avoid prescribed punishments when there are doubts".
Which Hadith does say this ?
Secondly if there is doubt it means crime is not proved , then why punishment?

The problem is, the crime is
  1. Either proved = Then full punishment
  2. Or unproved = Accused acquitted

There is nothing in between.You mean one crime can have two different types of punishments??

If fornication proved by four witnesses = flogging
If fornication proved by other means = Less punishment
In both cases fornication is proved then why two punishments.


The Holy Quran says clearly :

الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا مِئَةَ جَلْدَةٍ
(24:2) The woman and the man guilty of fornication, flog each one of them with a hundred stripes

Does the Holy Quran say that if proved by Four eye witnesses then Flogging and if proved by other evidences then Imprisonment or other punishment?? Is this conclusion extracted from Sunna??.If so please put forward the evidence ,it will be a great service towards understanding of this problem.
If this idea is self cooked then remember Allah Says ;

فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِم مِّيثَاقَهُمْ لَعنَّاهُمْ وَجَعَلْنَا قُلُوبَهُمْ قَاسِيَةً يُحَرِّفُونَ الْكَلِمَ عَن مَّوَاضِعِهِ وَنَسُواْ حَظًّا مِّمَّا ذُكِّرُواْ بِهِ وَلاَ تَزَالُ تَطَّلِعُ عَلَىَ خَآئِنَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً مِّنْهُمُ فَاعْفُ عَنْهُمْ وَ اصْفَحْ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ﴿5:13﴾
(5:13) Then, for their breach of the covenant We cast them away from Our mercy and caused their hearts to harden. (And now they are in such a state that) they pervert the words from their context and thus distort their meaning, and have forgotten a good portion of the teaching they were imparted, and regarding all except a few of them you continue to learn that they committed acts of treachery. Pardon them, then, and overlook their deeds. Surely Allah loves those who do good deeds.
The Only Standard in Islam is "The Quran And Sunna".And this status cannot be assigned to anyone no matter who he/she is

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ أَطِيعُواْ اللّهَ وَأَطِيعُواْ الرَّسُولَ وَأُوْلِي الأَمْرِ مِنكُمْ فَإِن تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِن كُنتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيل اً﴿4:59﴾
(4:59) Believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger *89 if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end

Best of luck
Reply

Musalmaan
06-09-2007, 11:48 AM
its not so much complex, i mean, i am also new to this topic...but it wasn't hard for me to grip it. alhamdulilah

to conclude, a rapist can be convicted on lesser evidence (including scientific evidence, such as DNA tests and medical reports) for discretionary punishments when the the four witness requirement of prescribed hadd punishment of Almighty Allah is not applied.

For any other queries, please ask an authentic scholar, as per the command of Almighty Allah, for the fuqahaa are more knowledgeable than us.
Reply

asadxyz
06-09-2007, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Musalmaan
its not so much complex, i mean, i am also new to this topic...but it wasn't hard for me to grip it. alhamdulilah

to conclude, a rapist can be convicted on lesser evidence (including scientific evidence, such as DNA tests and medical reports) for discretionary punishments when the the four witness requirement of prescribed hadd punishment of Almighty Allah is not applied.

For any other queries, please ask an authentic scholar, as per the command of Almighty Allah, for the fuqahaa are more knowledgeable than us.
Assalaamo Alaikum:
You mean if the rapist is convicted on DNA test in the absence of four eye witnesses ,then punishment of flogging or stoning to death can be given ??
Am I right to understand you ?'
Reply

Musalmaan
06-10-2007, 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by asadxyz
Assalaamo Alaikum:
You mean if the rapist is convicted on DNA test in the absence of four eye witnesses ,then punishment of flogging or stoning to death can be given ??
Am I right to understand you ?'
well dont understand me, lol its no use, understand the rulings from the right source.
Acc. to little what I understand from few rulings of scholars so far is that discretionary punishments is not same as the prescribed hadd punishment. The prescribed hadd punishment is only applied in very rare cases, as is clear, and is meant to be a social deterrent, above all.
The discretionary punishments are left up to the legal system to determine.

Thats all from me. :D
Reply

asadxyz
06-10-2007, 09:51 AM
Originally Posted by Musalmaan
well dont understand me, lol its no use, understand the rulings from the right source.
Acc. to little what I understand from few rulings of scholars so far is that discretionary punishments is not same as the prescribed hadd punishment. The prescribed hadd punishment is only applied in very rare cases, as is clear, and is meant to be a social deterrent, above all.
The discretionary punishments are left up to the legal system to determine.

Thats all from me. :D
Assalaamo Alaikum;
So you mean "Zina" has two types of punishments :
  1. Prescribed Hadd punishment = if four eye witnesses available
  2. Discretionary punishment= if four eye witnesses not availabe and proved by other means.

Here is the problem .Either the crime (Zina) has occured or not occured.There is nothing in between ;
  1. If Zina has occured "Hadd punishement" should occur whether proved by four eye witnesses or otherwise
  2. If Zina has not occured ,accused must be acquitted.

Looks very odd
Crime = one
Punishments =two types
why ??

Can you give me any example from The Holy Quran or Sunna that Zina has two different types punishments??Or it is self cooked.
Best of luck
Reply

Musalmaan
06-10-2007, 11:06 AM
You are absolutely wrong when you say "Hadd punishement" occur whether proved by four eye witnesses or otherwise. This is a sign of basic error in belief. Nobody can change the law of Allah, even the prophet can not change without will of Almighty Allah. to say, "Hadd punishement" occur whether proved by four eye witnesses or otherwise is absolutely False.

Thatswhy, I remind you again to refer an authentic scholar. and also scholar can only tell, Allah has given choice in this world to either accept it or reject it.

Originally Posted by asadxyz
Assalaamo Alaikum;
So you mean "Zina" has two types of punishments :
  1. Prescribed Hadd punishment = if four eye witnesses available
  2. Discretionary punishment= if four eye witnesses not availabe and proved by other means.

Here is the problem .Either the crime (Zina) has occured or not occured.There is nothing in between ;
  1. If Zina has occured "Hadd punishement" should occur whether proved by four eye witnesses or otherwise
  2. If Zina has not occured ,accused must be acquitted.

Looks very odd
Crime = one
Punishments =two types
why ??

Can you give me any example from The Holy Quran or Sunna that Zina has two different types punishments??Or it is self cooked.
Best of luck
Reply

asadxyz
06-10-2007, 11:48 AM
Assalaamo Alaikum
You are absolutely right no one can change Hudd punishment.
It is not I who is changing the punishment rather those who are insisting on "Two punishments"
This is in fact Tahreef in the Quran and Sunna.
Ok ,then what is the proof of second punishment from the Quran and Sunna.
You did not provide any proof.It will be of great help if you could provide because I am aware of only "Hadd punishment".
Please do give me some URL or E-mail address so that I can contact who can provide some proof of this second punishment.
Best of lUck
Reply

Musalmaan
06-11-2007, 04:44 AM
Originally Posted by asadxyz
Assalaamo Alaikum
You are absolutely right no one can change Hudd punishment.
It is not I who is changing the punishment rather those who are insisting on "Two punishments"
This is in fact Tahreef in the Quran and Sunna.
Ok ,then what is the proof of second punishment from the Quran and Sunna.
You did not provide any proof.It will be of great help if you could provide because I am aware of only "Hadd punishment".
Please do give me some URL or E-mail address so that I can contact who can provide some proof of this second punishment.
Best of lUck
What is relationship of this matter with tehreef Quran,
you are really an idiot and ignorant person, you should ask from shia scholars what is really "Tehreef Quran", they have a lot of "proofs" in their books with "Ayatullah's" commentary over it what is "tehreef Quran" and how much solid believe they have over it.
also ask them to proof from Quran and Hadith what is the punishment of car driver who broke the signal and traffic rules?
All the punishments in the world should be from Quran and Hadith. It might be your belief so ask from YOUR scholars/allamah.



I am off from it.



Reply

barney
06-11-2007, 04:58 AM
God Diddnt make traffic signals. I'm sure he's not bothered about a car travelling at 32MPH in a 30 Zone.

You dont need, in my opinion, his instruction on everything.

Free will remember?
Reply

Musalmaan
06-11-2007, 05:09 AM
Originally Posted by barney
God Diddnt make traffic signals. I'm sure he's not bothered about a car travelling at 32MPH in a 30 Zone.

You dont need, in my opinion, his instruction on everything.

Free will remember?
How can you say that God is not concerened? i heard it that one of the most ratio of death in USA is due to car accidents. Is it not a matter of concern? some body braking the law of roads where he has not to exceed from 120 km/hr he is exceeding from it? where he is not allowed to drive car while drunk he's doing that?

exactly, "You dont need, in my opinion, his instruction on everything." <- rightly said.

I was pointing out that not all matter can be found in Quran and Hadith, some matter are left which can be known/decided by the intelligence that God has given to human, and make and implements the rules and laws acc. to it. and where Quran and Hadith have explicitly mentioned the matter, then there is no option for us to decide if it can be implemented or not, it is to be implemented. The laws of Allah are supreme. :)
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barney
06-11-2007, 05:21 AM
A lot of muslims state, and I thought it was very much the beleif that the Quran had the instruction for everything?
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BanGuLLy
06-11-2007, 05:23 AM
Quran has the answer to everything in life..
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barney
06-11-2007, 05:30 AM
Then whats the Fine for parking in a restricted space?

Surah??
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Musalmaan
06-11-2007, 05:39 AM
Originally Posted by barney
A lot of muslims state, and I thought it was very much the beleif that the Quran had the instruction for everything?
Indeed, Quran is the ultimate and complete guide, and through Quran, we come to know,
The four Sources of Islamic Laws (The Shariah Laws).

1. Quran. (the Qur'an is the direct words of Allah, as revealed to and transmitted by the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him). )

2. Sunnah. (Sunnah is the traditions or known practices of the Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him))


3. Juristic analogy. (When a ruling cannot be clearly found in the Qur'aan and Hadith, the analogies and evidences have to be considered to find out its decree.)

4. Ijma' (consensus). (If Juristic analogy is agreed upon by the legal scholars, then it is called Ijmaa)

so these are the four primary sources. The original source of guidance is the Qur'aan but generally it is the fundamental principles and rulings which are integrate precepts, stated in the Qur'aan. It was the duty of the Prophet May the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him to explain in full the details and particulars.
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asadxyz
06-11-2007, 06:02 AM
Dear Muslamaan Assalaamo Alaikum:
I have just come across your post;

What is relationship of this matter with tehreef Quran,
you are really an idiot and ignorant person, you should ask from shia scholars what is really "Tehreef Quran", they have a lot of "proofs" in their books with "Ayatullah's" commentary over it what is "tehreef Quran" and how much solid believe they have over it.
I appreciate your way of aurgumentation.That is excellent.

As far I know The Holy Quran says:

ادْعُ إِلِى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ﴿16:125﴾ (16:125)

O Prophet invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and excellent admonition and discuss things with people in the best manner. *123 Your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Way and He knows best who is rightly guided.

As far as your use of "language is concerned ,I think the Quran has clear Guidance;

وَلَا تَلْمِزُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ وَلَا تَنَابَزُوا بِالْأَلْقَابِ بِئْسَ الاِسْمُ الْفُسُوقُ بَعْدَ الْإِيمَانِ وَمَن لَّمْ يَتُبْ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ﴿49:11﴾

Do not taunt one another among yourselves, nor call one another by nicknames. *It is an evil thing to be called by a bad name after faith. Those who fail to avoid this are wrongdoers.

We need to ponder over the Holy Quran :

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآَنَ أَمْ عَلَى قُلُوبٍ أَقْفَالُهَا ﴿47:24﴾

(47:24) Have they not pondered over the Qur'an, or are there locks upon their hearts? *

Best of luck
Reply

Musalmaan
06-11-2007, 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by asadxyz
Dear Muslamaan Assalaamo Alaikum:
I have just come across your post;



I appreciate your way of aurgumentation.That is excellent.

As far I know The Holy Quran says:

ادْعُ إِلِى سَبِيلِ رَبِّكَ بِالْحِكْمَةِ وَالْمَوْعِظَةِ الْحَسَنَةِ وَجَادِلْهُم بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ هُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِمَن ضَلَّ عَن سَبِيلِهِ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ﴿16:125﴾ (16:125)

O Prophet invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and excellent admonition and discuss things with people in the best manner. *123 Your Lord knows best who has gone astray from His Way and He knows best who is rightly guided.

As far as your use of "language is concerned ,I think the Quran has clear Guidance;

وَلَا تَلْمِزُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ وَلَا تَنَابَزُوا بِالْأَلْقَابِ بِئْسَ الاِسْمُ الْفُسُوقُ بَعْدَ الْإِيمَانِ وَمَن لَّمْ يَتُبْ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ﴿49:11﴾

Do not taunt one another among yourselves, nor call one another by nicknames. *It is an evil thing to be called by a bad name after faith. Those who fail to avoid this are wrongdoers.

We need to ponder over the Holy Quran :

أَفَلَا يَتَدَبَّرُونَ الْقُرْآَنَ أَمْ عَلَى قُلُوبٍ أَقْفَالُهَا ﴿47:24﴾

(47:24) Have they not pondered over the Qur'an, or are there locks upon their hearts? *

Best of luck
Indeed calling you an idiot and ignorant person is not wrong when you quickly put such a BIG allegation of "tehreef Quran" on the scholars? for having such ignorance i have called you an ignorant person and labeling it a "tehreef Quran" i called you an idiot person.

may Allah guide you and save the forum from your evil agenda.
Reply

- Qatada -
06-11-2007, 11:18 AM
:salamext:


I think the question of brother nydweller has been answered insha Allaah. :)



Thread Closed.
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