In Islam, are people seen as fundamentally good or evil?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

This is a question that has occurred to me, and I couldn't find a previous thread about it.

In Christianity, I think there are two schools of thought on this: Augustinian and Pelagian. The Augustinians believe that the sin of Adam has been transmitted through the generations, and that unbaptised infants are hellbound because of this. Humans are therefore naturally evil becasue of Adam's sin, and can only be saved by becoming Christian. Pelagians believe that people can be saved through good works, even if they haven't been baptised.

Is there a similar dichotomy of opinion in Islam?

Since there are so many rules and regulations in Islam, it looks to an outsider like the Muslim view would be that humans are naturally evil, and need to be strictly controlled for their own benefit, but I could be wrong about this (I often am).

Thoughts?

Peace

[- Qatada -]

Hey.


The muslim view is that no soul bears the burden of another, so no-one among mankind inherits Adam's sin/mistake. Nor do their deeds (sins/good) go to someone else, i.e. upon Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) as the christians claim. Every soul will bear it's own good and bad.


We also know that every baby is born upon the fitrah (the natural disposition), which means that it's naturally inclined to do good and hate evil. It believes in God, it believes that none is worthy of worship/obedience etc. besides Him. I.e. if someone was to force you to harm someone, you still wouldn't want to do it because you know it's evil, you want to do good, and you have the feeling that someone is watching you (i.e. God/Higher Being.)


However, this fitrah can be altered through your life by your surroundings I.e. people worshipping stone idols, humans etc. because of the culture around you, or when people persist in evils, they start to enjoy doing evil and they percieve good as evil. Society can have a great impact on the fitrah.

This Fitrah (natural disposition) which God has created us all with allows one to search for the truth. So part of the logic of fitrah is to believe that God doesn't die, so someone who hears of a religion where god dies knows that this isn't the case. So the fitrah can lead someone to try to find the purpose in life. Along with that we know that God sends Messengers' to explain to us all the concepts, so even if our Fitrah did get altered by society - we have a Criterion to refer back to i.e. the Message of the Messenger of God.


That's why you'll see that many muslims who never followed Islaam before but found it will label themselves as reverts instead of converts, because they believe they have found the answer to way of life which they've always been looking for - i.e. a reflection of their Fitrah = Islaam (which means submission to God.)



That's just my 2cents.. and Allaah knows best.

[Phil12123]

The muslim view is that no soul bears the burden of another, so no-one among mankind inherits Adam's sin/mistake. Nor do their deeds (sins/good) go to someone else, i.e. upon Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) as the christians claim. Every soul will bear it's own good and bad.

We also know that every baby is born upon the fitrah (the natural disposition), which means that it's naturally inclined to do good and hate evil. It believes in God, it believes that none is worthy of worship/obedience etc. besides Him. I.e. if someone was to force you to harm someone, you still wouldn't want to do it because you know it's evil, you want to do good, and you have the feeling that someone is watching you (i.e. God/Higher Being.)

However, this fitrah can be altered through your life by your surroundings I.e. people worshipping stone idols, humans etc. because of the culture around you, or when people persist in evils, they start to enjoy doing evil and they percieve good as evil. Society can have a great impact on the fitrah.

This Fitrah (natural disposition) which God has created us all with allows one to search for the truth. So part of the logic of fitrah is to believe that God doesn't die, so someone who hears of a religion where god dies knows that this isn't the case. So the fitrah can lead someone to try to find the purpose in life. Along with that we know that God sends Messengers' to explain to us all the concepts, so even if our Fitrah did get altered by society - we have a Criterion to refer back to i.e. the Message of the Messenger of God.

That's why you'll see that many muslims who never followed Islaam before but found it will label themselves as reverts instead of converts, because they believe they have found the answer to way of life which they've always been looking for - i.e. a reflection of their Fitrah = Islaam (which means submission to God.)

I was wondering if there are any Quranic verses that deal with this subject, i.e., that support the idea that Adam & Eve's sin or fall did not affect their offspring or mankind in general. It would appear that their firstborn, Cain, did not have a very good disposition since he killed his brother. And from simple observation, it does not appear that children have a natural inclination to do good and be obedient. They are constantly seeing what they can get away with, although some children are more "compliant" than others. Human nature in general, apart from God, would seem to be inclined to sin. That's my 2 cents, without quoting a lot of scripture.

P.S. I don't think unbaptized babies are hellbound, whether they have a naturally good or bad inclination.

[- Qatada -]

Hey Phil. :)


We believe:

Namely, that no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another;

That man can have nothing but what he strives for;

That (the fruit of) his striving will soon come in sight:

Then will he be rewarded with a reward complete;

That to thy Lord is the final Goal;


(Qur'an Surah Najm [53] : 38-42)

If we strive to do good in this life, then we will be rewarded for that good, and if we do evil - nobody else will get the punishment for it - but instead, the one who did that evil will be punished for it.

The same way, if a person does a crime in this world - the one who does the evil should be the one who gets punished, not any innocent who wasn't even there to stop the crime.


But in islam if one repents sincerely (hoping not to go to that sin again), then Allaah Almighty can choose to forgive that person. That is easy for Allaah.

Therefore give admonition in case the admonition profits (the hearer).

The admonition will be received by those who fear (Allah):

But it will be avoided by those most unfortunate ones,

Who will enter the Great Fire,

In which they will then neither die nor live.


But those will prosper who purify themselves,

And glorify the name of their Guardian-Lord, and (lift their hearts) in prayer.

Nay (behold), ye prefer the life of this world;

But the Hereafter is better and more enduring.

And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation),-

The Books of Abraham and Moses.


(Qur'an Surah Al A'la [87] : 9-19)

Regarding the son of Adam who killed the other;

[فَطَوَّعَتْ لَهُ نَفْسُهُ قَتْلَ أَخِيهِ فَقَتَلَهُ فَأَصْبَحَ مِنَ الْخَـسِرِينَ

So the Nafs (self) of the other (latter one) encouraged him and made fair*seeming to him the murder of his brother; he murdered him and became one of the losers.

[Qur'an Al Ma'eeda 5: 30]

The children of Adam have the freedom of choice to go down the path of good or evil. This is why those who persist in evil follow their cheap carnal desires, whereas the believers are ordered to control their desires and channel them in a positive/permissible manner. I.e. instead of fornication, through marriage, instead of stealing, through earning through business transaction for example etc.


The word 'nafs' is used within that verse, and this is explained as the 'Id' in pyschology. The 'evil carnal nature' one can say, yet this nature can't force us to do evil - since we have the power to control ourselves from doing that.

The shaytaan (devil) can't force us to do anything, rather he whispers to us to make some evil seem attractive to us, so we incline to do evil, yet we have a freedom of choice on whether we will go ahead with that evil act or obey Allaah's commandments instead, and then get a good reward for that inshaa Allaah.

The whispers can increase one to desire the evil, and the nafs can either incline to that evil and get a cheap temporary pleasure, or it can turn away from it, and then get the pleasure of Allaah - tranquility in this life and the next, His Mercy and a great reward.

The son of Adam killed the other out of freedom of choice, he knew it was wrong - especially since killing was prohibited. But he inclined to evil and killed his brother, and therefore became of the losers. It wasn't related to the sin of his father since God forgave Adam and Eve when they sincerely repented to Him. And without a doubt, all the children of Adam would return to the Creator of all things on the Day of Judgement so justice can be settled.


In regard to the children being sinful or doing crazy things, then we know that a child by itself won't usually do evil and is sinless anyway. Yeah, it may play about or do things by mistake, however it won't steal a sweet for example since it will know that it's wrong - especially on it's first time.

Or in a culture where violence is the norm, the child at the beginning won't want to harm others, yet the society around this child may influence it to do this evil - so the child get's used to it, and therefore the fitrah is likely to have altered. However, as this child get's older, if he/she is sincere in searching for the truth, then they may find it and come to realise that it is a reflection of what they've been missing and searching for all this time.




And Allaah knows best.



Regards.

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[czgibson]

Greetings,

Thanks for the replies so far. :)

The muslim view is that no soul bears the burden of another, so no-one among mankind inherits Adam's sin/mistake. Nor do their deeds (sins/good) go to someone else, i.e. upon Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) as the christians claim. Every soul will bear it's own good and bad.

Sounds fair enough to me. Original sin has always baffled me - OK, so Adam and Eve disobeyed God's orders, but after all, they just stole some fruit. If it made them knowledgable, I would have thought that would be a good thing...

We also know that every baby is born upon the fitrah (the natural disposition), which means that it's naturally inclined to do good and hate evil.

Do you know this, or just believe it? I agree with Phil12123's comments above - children will always test boundaries, and see what they can get away with. That's just part of them developing their understanding of what right and wrong are. Do feral children have an innate sense of right and wrong? I doubt it.

However, if, according to Islam, humans have a natural inclination to do good, then why the need for so many rules and regulations on every detail of life? Why do humans need to be told exactly what food it is permitted for them to eat if they have a natural inclination to choose the 'right' way anyway?

It believes in God, it believes that none is worthy of worship/obedience etc. besides Him.

Is there any evidence to support this? I can't remember ever believing in God, and the first time someone introduced me to the idea I thought it was obviously absurd, and still do.

This Fitrah (natural disposition) which God has created us all with allows one to search for the truth.

I think we certainly have a natural curiosity, so I'd agree on that point. Different people arrive at different truths, though.

I don't think unbaptized babies are hellbound, whether they have a naturally good or bad inclination.

Fair enough - that was St. Augustine's view, though. Do you think they end up in Limbo or something like that?

Peace

[- Qatada -]

Hey.


Regarding them eating from the tree,

Then We said: "O Adam! verily, this is an enemy to thee and thy wife: so let him not get you both out of the Garden, so that thou art landed in misery.

"There is therein (enough provision) for thee not to go hungry nor to go naked,

"Nor to suffer from thirst, nor from the sun's heat."

But Satan whispered evil to him: he said, "O Adam! shall I lead thee to the Tree of Eternity and to a kingdom that never decays?"

In the result, they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them: they began to sew together, for their covering, leaves from the Garden: thus did Adam disobey his Lord, and allow himself to be seduced.

But his Lord chose him (for His Grace): He turned to him, and gave him Guidance.

He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.

"But whosoever turns away from My Message, verily for him is a life narrowed down, and We shall raise him up blind on the Day of Judgment."


[Qur'an Ta-Ha 20: 118-124]

So the tree wasn't the tree of knowledge, infact knowledge is praised in the Qur'an and in Islaam. So i don't know where that idea came from. Satan decieved them by saying that it's the tree of eternity and of kingdom. But we see later in the verses that Allaah forgave them since the son of Adam is prone to sin, but the best of sinners are those who repent sincerely and return to the guidance.


In regard to your other questions;


I think it's quite logical that people are inclined towards good, and that is a sign of the fitrah - since the religion itself supports doing good. i.e. helping the needy, feeling sympathy, enjoining the ties of kinship, giving in charity etc.

The question might be why we need so much in depth rules and regulations within the religion, this has been explained in my previous post where i stated that if someones fitrah was to be altered by the society around them - then they would have a Criterion [i.e. the Message] to refer to so they could go back upon the fitrah.

Obviously there are other details which may be specifically within the revelation. I.e. marriage is something which is permissible in Islaam, yet how the marriage contract is done is within the revelation. So the details are required from the revelation, and the fitrah agrees with that since Allaah has created us that way i.e. the revelation is logical and in accordance with the sound fitrah.



In regard to your question about believing in God being part of the fitrah, i'd love to see a child brought up in a natural environment without any interference from theists or atheists, and see if this child would believe that there is a Creator of the place where the child lives, eats from, breathes, drinks etc.


And Allaah knows best.



Peace.

[Umar001]

I was wondering if there are any Quranic verses that deal with this subject, i.e., that support the idea that Adam & Eve's sin or fall did not affect their offspring or mankind in general. It would appear that their firstborn, Cain, did not have a very good disposition since he killed his brother. And from simple observation, it does not appear that children have a natural inclination to do good and be obedient. They are constantly seeing what they can get away with, although some children are more "compliant" than others. Human nature in general, apart from God, would seem to be inclined to sin. That's my 2 cents, without quoting a lot of scripture.

This starts with the assumption that the disposition was effected to get at what it is now, I don't think it was, I mean Adam and Eve made mistakes, like we do, and noone's mistake had effected their disposition.

As for their children, then we know that Adam's other child, in both Biblical and Islamic accounts was good right? So there goes that.

I also don't think humans are inclined to sin as such, but rather I think we should look deeper, are humans inclined to sin the word/meaning of it? Or are they inclined to acts which are classified as sin? I think the latter, and how does this change things? Well we see that alot of acts of sin are acts which bring momentry gratification, fornicating, adultery, rape (some people find the power as a buz), killing (similar to rape, or in anger they lash out).

So I think it is the natural disposition to do things we like, if we ask mankind, if you had a choice right now, to do A: an action that brings momentry gratification or B: an action which brings endless gratification, they'd all chose B, this could be shown as not sinning, praying, pleasing God which would lead to paradise. But the patience and waiting is what prevents the son of Adam from suceeding in that, in my opinion, thus they fall into wanting the gratification now.

That is what I see, not us being inclined to sin as such, but being inclined to make ourselvs happy and thus we sacrifice true happiness for fake instant happynes.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Thanks again for your replies, everyone. :)

So the tree wasn't the tree of knowledge, infact knowledge is praised in the Qur'an and in Islaam.

It says: "they both ate of the tree, and so their nakedness appeared to them". They realised something they hadn't noticed before, and gained knowledge. Is that a fair interpretation?

On your second point, does the Qur'an praise knowledge for its own sake, or just the 'right' type of knowledge?

So i don't know where that idea came from.

I was referring to the Christian doctrine of original sin. The idea that it was the tree of knowledge comes from Genesis 3:5.

I think it's quite logical that people are inclined towards good, and that is a sign of the fitrah - since the religion itself supports doing good. i.e. helping the needy, feeling sympathy, enjoining the ties of kinship, giving in charity etc.

In what way does the fact that a religion supports good deeds necessarily mean that humans are innately good? The idea is absolutely the reverse of logical.

The question might be why we need so much in depth rules and regulations within the religion,

That was the question, yes.

this has been explained in my previous post where i stated that if someones fitrah was to be altered by the society around them - then they would have a Criterion [i.e. the Message] to refer to so they could go back upon the fitrah.

But if the fitrah is the natural disposition of humanity, why would society need to be changed, instructed and minutely legislated for? Surely if the fitrah is what you say it is, society would already be heading in the direction of good deeds and pleasing Allah?

In regard to your question about believing in God being part of the fitrah, i'd love to see a child brought up in a natural environment without any interference from theists or atheists, and see if this child would believe that there is a Creator of the place where the child lives, eats from, breathes, drinks etc.

That is a fascinating question that I would love to know the answer to. You know what I think the answer would be. :)

Peace

[asadxyz]

To all critics of Islam: peace;
Since there is nothing common between Atheists and Islam ,I do not think you will be able to make any common point of reference.
Putting aside everything;For the time being we assume ( معاذا لله ) there is no God ,and all divine Books including Al-Quran are fabricated.
Just one challange from my side.

You know there are millions of Huffaaz (People who have memorized the Holy Quran by heart).
You produce just 10 persons who can recite any book of the size of Quran with so much accuracy as the the Holy Quran is recited every year. I will accept your claim:Otherwise reconsider your thoughts and opinions

This is actually a MIRACLE OF THE QURAN.
Try it ,produce it and prove it.

فَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلُواْ وَلَن تَفْعَلُواْ فَاتَّقُواْ النَّارَ الَّتِي وَقُودُهَا النَّاسُ وَالْحِجَارَةُ أُعِدَّتْ لِلْكَافِرِينَ﴿2:24﴾

(2:24) But if you do not do this, and you can never do this, then fear the Fire which has been prepared for the disbelievers and which shall have men and stones for fuel
Best of luck

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Your post is off-topic, but since you've asked some interesting questions, I'll answer them, then try to explain where my thoughts are on the topic of this thread.

To all critics of Islam: peace;
Since there is nothing common between Atheists and Islam ,I do not think you will be able to make any common point of reference.

Fine. I'm not here simply to criticise, or in the hope that Muslims and atheists will reach agreement. I'm here to understand. I hope nobody thinks I'm here to insult people, because I'm not. If anyone is offended by my posts, please accept my apologies.

You know there are millions of Huffaaz (People who have memorized the Holy Quran by heart).
You produce just 10 persons who can recite any book of the size of Quran with so much accuracy as the the Holy Quran is recited every year. I will accept your claim:Otherwise reconsider your thoughts and opinions

Supposing I couldn't answer the challenge: what would that prove? That many people have memorised the book that is central to their way of life. So what?

As it is, I think that there are many actors who could recite huge passages from Shakespeare, for example. Olivier and Gielgud played Hamlet, King Lear, Richard III and many other huge parts, the combined total of which would far outweigh the Qur'an in sheer size, not to mention linguistic complexity. But anyway, what does this prove? Some people have excellent memories. There's nothing remotely miraculous about it.

(2:24) But if you do not do this, and you can never do this, then fear the Fire which has been prepared for the disbelievers and which shall have men and stones for fuel

That's actually part of the challenge to produce a sura like one from the Qur'an, so I'm not sure how it's relevant, unless you're just trying to scare me with threats of hellfire.

Back to the topic then:

We've seen mention of the fitrah, the natural disposition of humans to do good, according to Islamic belief. I have two questions about this, and I wonder what others think:

1. If humans have a natural inclination to do good, then why do they need so many rules and regulations?

2. If society is to blame, then why is it to blame? How can society have changed to be so different to what is supposed to be the natural inclination of humans?

The fitrah reminds me of a view put forward by Aristotle in his Nicomachean Ethics when he was trying to understand what 'good' meant. He said that humans always act in a way that they believe to be good. The problem arises when they fail to adequately balance what is good for them with what is good for others, and society in general. A fairly banal point, but it seems to me to be much easier to understand than the fitrah. I can't really see how the fitrah relates to life as it is actually lived, and, moreover, I can't see how it can be squared with a religion like Islam, which, through its many rules and regulations, seems to be predicated on the fact that humans need constant restrictions to be placed upon them to curb their (natural?) desires.

Peace

[asadxyz]

Greetings,

Supposing I couldn't answer the challenge: what would that prove? That many people have memorised the book that is central to their way of life. So what?

As it is, I think that there are many actors who could recite huge passages from Shakespeare, for example. Olivier and Gielgud played Hamlet, King Lear, Richard III and many other huge parts, the combined total of which would far outweigh the Qur'an in sheer size, not to mention linguistic complexity. But anyway, what does this prove? Some people have excellent memories. There's nothing remotely miraculous about it.

Peace:
It is not only you ,no one can answer this question. It is the only the miraculous nature of the Quran.No other book can be memorized.People have tried but none could face this challenge.
Be pragmatic and practical.Bring the proof as I have said ,show on it live in the presence of people I assure many including me will leave Islam but again I repeat the Aya:
فَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلُواْ وَلَن تَفْعَلُواْ فَاتَّقُواْ النَّارَ الَّتِي وَقُودُهَا النَّاسُ وَالْحِجَارَةُ أُعِدَّتْ لِلْكَافِرِينَ﴿2:24﴾

(2:24) But if you do not do this, and you can never do this, then fear the Fire which has been prepared for the disbelievers and which shall have men and stones for fuel

هَاتُواْ بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ﴿2:111﴾

"Bring your proof, if you are right in your claim

This is not off topic .The reason there is nothing common among Atheists and Muslims.What can be point of reference? Both sides will go on putting aurguments without outcome.

Try my challenge.Not only you any person ,any scientist ,any philospher ,any psychologists can try.

Bring just 10 such persons who can recite any book of the size of Quran with such an accuracy through memory.
ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS.
Best of luck

[Malaikah]

But if the fitrah is the natural disposition of humanity, why would society need to be changed, instructed and minutely legislated for? Surely if the fitrah is what you say it is, society would already be heading in the direction of good deeds and pleasing Allah?

But just because we have this natural inclination to do good, doesn't mean we are perfect, nor does it mean that we aren't inclined to sin either. Don't forget the devil is out there trying to lead us astray.

Also, just because we are inclined to good, doesn't mean we can always tell the difference between good and bad. There are shades in between.

We don't have enough knowledge to always know the difference between good or bad, or to devise the person governing system... etc.

A quick look at reality will tell you that. :thumbs_up

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Peace:
It is not only you ,no one can answer this question.

I did answer your question. Read my post again.

No other book can be memorized.People have tried but none could face this challenge.

Are you serious? The Rig veda was passed on orally long before it was written down. So were Homer's Iliad and Odyssey. The Qur'an is memorised by so many Muslims because doing so is considered to be educational and beneficial by Muslims. This fact has nothing in any way miraculous about it.

Be pragmatic and practical.Bring the proof as I have said ,show on it live in the presence of people I assure many including me will leave Islam but again I repeat the Aya:
فَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلُواْ وَلَن تَفْعَلُواْ فَاتَّقُواْ النَّارَ الَّتِي وَقُودُهَا النَّاسُ وَالْحِجَارَةُ أُعِدَّتْ لِلْكَافِرِينَ﴿2:24﴾

(2:24) But if you do not do this, and you can never do this, then fear the Fire which has been prepared for the disbelievers and which shall have men and stones for fuel

هَاتُواْ بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ﴿2:111﴾

As I already said, this passage is not actually about what you think it is about.

"Bring your proof, if you are right in your claim

Would you even read it?

This is not off topic .

You might not have noticed, but this thread is about whether Islam views people as being fundamentally good or evil. Congratulations on successfully drawing me into a different debate and taking us right off-topic. Perhaps the mods could split this thread. Sorry guys.

The reason there is nothing common among Atheists and Muslims.

We're all people. That would be one thing we have in common.

Peace

[czgibson]

Greetings,

But just because we have this natural inclination to do good, doesn't mean we are perfect, nor does it mean that we aren't inclined to sin either. Don't forget the devil is out there trying to lead us astray.

This is a very interesting point. Does the fitrah take account of this inclination to sin? Where does it come from? How can we be naturally inclined to be good and to sin as well?

Peace

[- Qatada -]

Greetings,


This is a very interesting point. Does the fitrah take account of this inclination to sin? Where does it come from? How can we be naturally inclined to be good and to sin as well?

Peace

Hey.


If you read the post regarding Adam eating from the tree:
http://www.islamicboard.com/764450-post6.html


You'll realise that man has desires by nature, i.e. the issue of the 'Id'. So even though man is created in a way which is good, he also has the desire which may lead to him/her doing evil. For instance when satan whispered (waswasa) to Adam to eat from the tree of kingdom and eternity - he inclined towards it out of desire for kingdom and eternity [even though he already was given so much] - when in reality this was a form of trial for him, and transgressing the limits was for his own loss, even though satan made it seem to him that it was for his benefit. Yet when he ate from the tree, it lead to his loss (i.e. being dispelled from Paradise for a while.)

These desires can either be controlled and lead to higher morality, or it can go to the lowest of the low if one was to follow his/her desires in an impermissible manner. Yet Allaah has given us the alternative so we channel these desires in a permissible manner, like the examples we gave earlier about marriage being the alternative to fornication, or all the drinks which Allaah has made permissible for us, instead of alcohol etc.



And Allaah knows best.