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vpb
06-13-2007, 10:39 PM
Please post here, about :

What are the Responsibilities of a Believer with Regards to an Unbeliever?.
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Woodrow
06-14-2007, 01:18 PM
This can be a very good topic and serve as a reminder to all of us. I believe it would be nice for our non-Muslim members to add in their input as to what they believe we should do to help them understand Islam without feeling forced or intimidated.

We do have many responsibilities to Non-Muslims and sadly we over look then all too often.

I am going to refrain from posting what I see as our responsibilities at the moment.
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-14-2007, 01:20 PM
i agree, it would be nice to see non-muslim members openly state how they would like us muslims to treat them within the boundaries of islamic law ofcourse.

ive never had problems with a kaafir, infact im good friends with quite a lot of them, so i dont see any problems yet but perhaps non-believers have found problems with certain actions of muslims in the past? :?
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vpb
06-14-2007, 01:21 PM
:sl:

just to mention, the credits for the idea of this thread go to Grace Seeker.
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Woodrow
06-14-2007, 01:30 PM
I would say that one major responsibility is to show our selves as true Muslims so that non-Muslims can see the Beauty of Islam and want to learn more because of what they have seen in us. We need to show that Islam truly is a goal worth seeking and that Muslims have found much value in it and honestly do strive to serve Allah(swt).

I think we all need to keep in mind that our words and actions are often the only views of Islam many people will ever have. Think YOU and I can very well be what becomes a persons lifetime concept as to what a Muslim is. What non-Muslims see in us is how they view Islam.

This world is growing and there is a very good chance that YOU are the only Muslim some people have ever seen. You are what Islam is, to some people.
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carpetguy
06-14-2007, 01:30 PM
it is our responsibility to peacefully introduce them to islam, and not throw ourselves on to them, tell them about the positive things 1stly to show our way of life is beautiful. also make dua for them and also be an exapmple with the things u do.

but in islam it is our respeonsibility to tell them all about islam is the true way of life, on the day of judgment allah will ask them why they did not submit, and theyu will say your people never told us, and then we will be brought forward to be questioned.
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-14-2007, 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
This world is growing and there is a very good chance that YOU are the only Muslim some people have ever seen. You are what Islam is, to some people.
SUBHANALLAH!!!!

i never thought of it in this way before...
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czgibson
06-14-2007, 01:45 PM
Greetings,

Here are my thoughts on this:

I have to say I've encountered relatively few upsetting situations on the forum regarding the way Muslim members treat non-Muslims. Most people here are very tolerant and happy to discuss their beliefs in a way which could easily be seen by others as unsuitable or offensive. For that, I would like to thank the people who have given their time to engage in interesting discussions with us, the unbelievers.

Sometimes, though, critical discussions of Islam can lead to frayed tempers, and occasionally some members have responded with anger and hatred, with talk of 'filthy kaffirs' and so on. This is to be expected, I suppose, and I am sure that most of the faithful know that such behaviour is really unproductive. I haven't seen it happen here for a while, though.

One thing that is annoying for unbelievers is when someone goes into a long description of the hellfire that awaits us. Muslims must realise that, for an atheist like me, threatening me with hell is utterly pointless. I feel certain that hell does not exist; I believe it is an invention used to scare people into conformity. I am no more scared of hell than I am scared of Godzilla. For a Muslim, though, I suppose this counts as giving a fair warning, but there is really no point in doing it. Someone who comes to faith because they're scared doesn't have a faith worth having, in my view.

That's my biggest gripe. There are other things, such as the persistent misunderstandings of evolution and science in general that seem to be rife among the community here, and the unusual use of the word 'proof' that also seems to exist, but these are topics that could have whole threads devoted to them.

I've learned a lot about Islam here on the forum, and that learning has been only mildly impeded by the things I've just mentioned, so well done everyone - overall, you're doing a great job!

Peace
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Woodrow
06-14-2007, 03:43 PM
We may have to constantly remind ourselves that because we believe a person's faith is in grave error, that does not always mean that they are speaking to us out of malice.

We need to keep in mind that the Non-Muslims here have come to try to understand Islam. Most are sincere in wanting to know the truth about us.

It is true that on occasion some people do come only for the purpose of causing arguments. For that we do have the report button. although us Mods do seem to be slow, we do take all reports seriously and we try to understand all that led up to the problem. use the report button as a first choice rather than answering from anger.

We also need to be mindful that there are people from many different age and Language backgrounds. Sometimes what seems like a problem is a misunderstanding of what was said.
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wilberhum
06-14-2007, 06:17 PM
Really an interesting question. Not one that I can take a 30 second jab to remind someone there are two sides to a coin.
But then there are two sides to this coin. I know the question was posed from a Muslim perspective but my answer is from a non-Muslim perspective. Well at least my perspective.

If I ask an honest question, I think it is your responsibility to give me an honest answer.

I might add that the last time I did that I was met with ridicule and derogatory remarks.
Left me cold and angry until Ra`eesah came and tried to answer my question.

That is really the end of you religious responsibility, at least as far as I am concerned.

As far as a little advice, Woodrow, as usual, said it best:

I think we all need to keep in mind that our words and actions are often the only views of Islam many people will ever have.
And there are some that have left a very negative impression.

Truly,
Wilber
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Walter
06-14-2007, 06:33 PM
Hi Everyone:

There seems to be more than one question asked.

1. What are the responsibilities of a believer with regards to an unbeliever?

A believer has a responsibility to show the unbeliever the way and not by force. However, what is a believer? Both Christians and Muslims believe that there is one God who is identified as the friend of Abraham, and that Jesus is the Messiah.

2. What are the responsibilities between Christians and Muslims?

Christians and Muslims have a responsibility to cooperate with each other and with the God of Abraham in His plan for mankind. Cooperation with each other can be facilitated by effective communication on both sides. Effective communication can be accomplished if each side would read all of the Books containing God’s revelation to mankind.

It should be noted that miscommunication, and the attendant non-cooperation is guaranteed if one side continues to speculate about what the other side believes.

Regards,
Grenville
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Philosopher
06-14-2007, 06:52 PM
The only responsibility is to use logic and reason to verify God's existence.
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vpb
06-14-2007, 07:14 PM
Christians and Muslims have a responsibility to cooperate with each other and with the God of Abraham in His plan for mankind. Cooperation with each other can be facilitated by effective communication on both sides. Effective communication can be accomplished if each side would read all of the Books containing God’s revelation to mankind.

It should be noted that miscommunication, and the attendant non-cooperation is guaranteed if one side continues to speculate about what the other side believes.
We can be respectful to each other, but not cooperate at the level that you think. We don't compromise Islam in anyway. this is my opinion of course.
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vpb
06-14-2007, 07:16 PM
The only responsibility is to use logic and reason to verify God's existence.
We already assume God exists so we are not talking here about proving wether God exists or not, we are talking here about the responsebilites towards a non-believer.
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MTAFFI
06-14-2007, 08:48 PM
I would find it helpful many times that rather than talking down to a non muslim, it would be good to simply treat them as an equal. Many times I find that Muslims (obviously not all of them) tend to think of themselves as "better" people than others and that thought is conveyed through the way they speak to non muslims.

It would also be nice to hear the words Kuffar or kafir less, I am not a kafir by islams own definition, I used to be or rather should have been called a "dhimmi" or a "person of the book", however the word Kuffar seems in many cases to have turned into a derrogatory comment towards those who are not muslims, when the Quran, at least in my opinion, points to apostates, hindus, buddhists, or atheists as kuffar. I think the use of this word also puts non muslims off to the religion because as said by Woodrow, to many people, this forum is a persons perception of a Muslim, and if a word that, in a cultural sense, is used so frequently and demeaningly it tends to put other people off because it makes some muslims look like bigots.

Another good thing to do would be to try to look at things open minded. I find many times that when having a discussion with some Muslims, they are so close minded about religion, foreign affairs, etc. that there is no point in speaking with them because there can be no understanding but their own. I am not saying to change your beliefs or compromise them, but at least try to take a step and understand where and why the other side is coming from where they are rather than saying "Well I am Muslim, this is Islam and you are wrong". If everyone did this there would be no solution to anything because everyone would think they already know it all.

Anyways I think that is really all I have to offer for now, really good thread and thank you for posting. :)
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Trumble
06-14-2007, 09:43 PM
Debate, don't preach unless people want to be preached at. Which amounts to no more than the 'golden rule, really.

Remember that while you may think another person's faith "is in grave error", they may well think think the same of yours, and may have just as much justification for doing so. Judge a person on who they are, and how they behave with regard to others, not their religious label. If there is a God, that is how He will judge, not on the basis of who "accepts" who as what.
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Walter
06-14-2007, 09:58 PM
Hi VPB:

Originally Posted by vpb
We can be respectful to each other, but not cooperate at the level that you think. We don't compromise Islam in anyway. this is my opinion of course.
A major problem seems to appear when we decide to place our traditions, whether Islamic or Christian, before an Abrahamic relationship with God. As previously explained in another thread, our traditions are supposed to lead us to a personal relationship with God. Our goal should be friendship with God and not the protection of our religious traditions.

What is it that you do not intend to compromise? Is it your belief in God, or your Islamic religious tradition? If it is your belief in God, then we can certainly cooperate. If it is your Islamic traditions, then obviously some of them may conflict with my Christian traditions. If we both dug in our heels and refused to compromise on traditions, then it will be difficult for us to work together in our desire to cooperate with God.

What do you think God wants you to do?

Regards,
Grenville
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vpb
06-14-2007, 10:40 PM
It would also be nice to hear the words Kuffar or kafir less, I am not a kafir by islams own definition, I used to be or rather should have been called a "dhimmi" or a "person of the book", however the word Kuffar seems in many cases to have turned into a derrogatory comment towards those who are not muslims, when the Quran, at least in my opinion, points to apostates, hindus, buddhists, or atheists as kuffar. I think the use of this word also puts non muslims off to the religion because as said by Woodrow, to many people, this forum is a persons perception of a Muslim, and if a word that, in a cultural sense, is used so frequently and demeaningly it tends to put other people off because it makes some muslims look like bigots.
who told u that people of the book are not considered kuffar?

do u know what is the definition of 'kufr' ????


A major problem seems to appear when we decide to place our traditions, whether Islamic or Christian, before an Abrahamic relationship with God. As previously explained in another thread, our traditions are supposed to lead us to a personal relationship with God. Our goal should be friendship with God and not the protection of our religious traditions.

What is it that you do not intend to compromise? Is it your belief in God, or your Islamic religious tradition? If it is your belief in God, then we can certainly cooperate. If it is your Islamic traditions, then obviously some of them may conflict with my Christian traditions. If we both dug in our heels and refused to compromise on traditions, then it will be difficult for us to work together in our desire to cooperate with God.

What do you think God wants you to do?
when I say we don't compromise Islam, I mean that we don't give up Islamic values, just bc to please someone in order to have good relation with them. We see many muslims, in order to please non-muslims, they do things which are anti-islamic, just to have that "relationship". Of course we can cooporate, but within certain limits, so I don't give up my Islamic values.

Another good thing to do would be to try to look at things open minded. I find many times that when having a discussion with some Muslims, they are so close minded about religion, foreign affairs, etc. that there is no point in speaking with them because there can be no understanding but their own. I am not saying to change your beliefs or compromise them, but at least try to take a step and understand where and why the other side is coming from where they are rather than saying "Well I am Muslim, this is Islam and you are wrong". If everyone did this there would be no solution to anything because everyone would think they already know it all.
it depends on what solution we are looking for. If we are looking for a daily life solution ,that's different things, but if we are looking for a religious solution, than there is no compromise there. Allah az has made truth clear from error, and I wouldn't wish to change that in order to please someone.
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Pygoscelis
06-14-2007, 10:53 PM
I see very few special responsibilities that muslims have here and non muslims don't. General forum good behaviour is something we should all have. In general I'd say it is very good here.

I'm one of the more inflamatory posters here, because my views are pretty much the polar opposite of islam (I find religion dangerous, I support legal prostitution, public nudity, and marijuana, etc for some extreme examples). I never make personal attacks but sometimes my views get people riled. That is to be expected. And I must say it is impressive how rarely I get attacked.

As Woodrow noted, you folks are the only muslims many nonmuslims here will ever have long conversations with. Like it or not, you represent muslims in general to many of us, so if you snap and start calling people names etc it reflects badly on your faith.

I think the only special responsibilities muslims here have is to honestly answer questions and to make it clear that they are just one person and do not represent islam as a whole. In all fairness they shouldn't have to remind nonmuslims of this, but given the nature of the forum and the fact that most nonmuslims won't know much about islam, it is something that muslims should keep in mind.
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vpb
06-14-2007, 10:59 PM
I support legal prostitution, public nudity, and marijuana, etc for some extreme examples). I never make personal attacks but sometimes my views get people riled.
\

;D ;D ;D ...lollllll

we don't usually call non-muslims kuffar, but some of them just deserve to be called like that. as muslims we are supposed to behave good with muslims and non-muslims. to be kind. it's just that sometimes some people don't appriciate it , so we have to change our faces a little bit :D and we say that to poeple who we know for a quiet long time :p
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Walter
06-14-2007, 11:55 PM
Hi VPB:

Originally Posted by vpb
when I say we don't compromise Islam, I mean that we don't give up Islamic values, just bc to please someone in order to have good relation with them. We see many muslims, in order to please non-muslims, they do things which are anti-islamic, just to have that "relationship". Of course we can cooporate, but within certain limits, so I don't give up my Islamic values.
So it appears that you do not want to compromise your Islamic traditional values. What if your tradition conflicted with what God wanted you to do? Obviously I am not talking about anything immoral; perhaps He just wanted you to worship Him through music for example. Would you tell God “NO!”

Regards,
Grenville
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ranma1/2
06-15-2007, 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i agree, it would be nice to see non-muslim members openly state how they would like us muslims to treat them within the boundaries of islamic law ofcourse.

ive never had problems with a kaafir, infact im good friends with quite a lot of them, so i dont see any problems yet but perhaps non-believers have found problems with certain actions of muslims in the past? :?
Well if you are interested in converting us i would recomend finding as much scientific evidence to support claims.

As for actions on the forum. Just follow the golden rule. Treat us as you would wish to be treated. Or rather dont treat us how you would not want to be treated.
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Malaikah
06-15-2007, 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by Grenville
So it appears that you do not want to compromise your Islamic traditional values. What if your tradition conflicted with what God wanted you to do? Obviously I am not talking about anything immoral; perhaps He just wanted you to worship Him through music for example. Would you tell God “NO!”
If God wanted us to worship Him through music then music would not be forbidden in Islam and we would have no problem with it. We don't dislike music because it is a personal thing, rather we dislike it because God told us it is not allowed through Islam.

The same goes for anything else. :)
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vpb
06-15-2007, 07:38 AM
So it appears that you do not want to compromise your Islamic traditional values. What if your tradition conflicted with what God wanted you to do? Obviously I am not talking about anything immoral; perhaps He just wanted you to worship Him through music for example. Would you tell God “NO!”
lol, I didn't say anywhere Islamic traditions, but I said Islamic values, but even if we say Islamic traditions, they come from Allah swt, basically the Islamic values come from Qur'an and the Sunnah? so how can they contradict what God wants? both sources are from Allah . so if I follow them, it's not possible to contradict God.

and sister Malaikah gave an explanation about your post, so I don't think it's necessary to make any additional comments on it. :)
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-15-2007, 10:17 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
Well if you are interested in converting us i would recomend finding as much scientific evidence to support claims..
www.islamcan.com
www.harunyahya.com
www.beconvinced.com

how much evidence do you require? :)
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Pygoscelis
06-15-2007, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by vpb
\

;D ;D ;D ...lollllll

we don't usually call non-muslims kuffar, but some of them just deserve to be called like that. as muslims we are supposed to behave good with muslims and non-muslims. to be kind. it's just that sometimes some people don't appriciate it , so we have to change our faces a little bit :D and we say that to poeple who we know for a quiet long time :p
Heh. Well like I said, I'm pretty much the extreme case here of polar opposite to Islamic views. And for the record I take no offence in being called Kuffar. I think it sounds quite nifty. :D You'd have to do much better than that if you ever wanted to offend me.
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Walter
06-15-2007, 01:57 PM
Hi Malaikah:

Please provide me with the verses in the Koran where God forbids music.

Regards,
Grenville
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-15-2007, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Malaikah:

Please provide me with the verses in the Koran where God forbids music.

Regards,
Grenville
is surah luqman verse 6 it forbids idle play of all sorts and a companion of the messenger of Allah sallallahi alaihi wasallaam swore three times that its about music and we take from the companions understanding :)


i hope that made sense
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Malaikah
06-15-2007, 02:09 PM
Originally Posted by Grenville
Please provide me with the verses in the Koran where God forbids music.
Hi,

There is no explicit verse that states this, however the Prophet pbuh forbade it, the evidence is in this hadith:


It was reported in a saheeh hadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “In my ummah there will be people who allow fornication/adultery (zina), silk, wine and musical instruments [ma’aazif]. Some people will stay at the side of a mountain, and they will have flocks of sheep. When a poor person comes in the evening to ask them for something he needs, they will say. ‘Come back to us tomorrow.’ Then during the night Allaah will destroy them by causing the mountain to fall upon them, while He changes others into apes and swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of Resurrection.’”

(Reported by al-Bukhaari in al-Saheeh mu’allaqan, 51/10.)
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MTAFFI
06-15-2007, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
who told u that people of the book are not considered kuffar?

do u know what is the definition of 'kufr' ????
I read it in the holy Quran, I cant find the exact verse right now but I will provide it when I do

The definition of the kuffar is ingrateful or the disbelievers, the disbelievers are not Christians or Jews, but those who do not believe in Allah. The Quran says that the Jews and the Christians are wrong about their beliefs, but it does not specifically say they are kuffar. If I am wrong please correct me, I am still learning and I am going by what I have read so far.

Not only that but the word Kuffar is not used in a sense to describe someone but more to degrade someone (or at least on this forum). It is rude and against what the Quran teaches

Islam is a religion of peace and respect, many here and in other places do not always show this through their words and actions
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- Qatada -
06-15-2007, 02:42 PM
I don't want to go offtopic, but to answer the present question;


Those who disbelieve from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and among Al-Mushrikûn (the polytheists) were not going to leave (their disbelief) until there came to them clear evidence.

A Messenger (Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from Allâh, reciting (the Qur'ân) purified pages [purified from Al-Bâtil (falsehood, etc.)].

Containing correct and straight laws from Allâh.


And the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) differed not until after there came to them clear evidence. (i.e. Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) and whatever was revealed to him).

And they were commanded not, but that they should worship Allâh, and worship none but Him Alone (abstaining from ascribing partners to Him), and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât - the 5 daily Prayers) and give Zakât (the charity): and that is the right religion.

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islâm, the Qur'ân and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikûn will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.


Verily, those who believe [in the Oneness of Allâh, and in His Messenger Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) including all obligations ordered by Islâm] and do righteous good deeds, they are the best of creatures.

Their reward with their Lord is 'Adn (Eden) Paradise (Gardens of Eternity), underneath which rivers flow, they will abide therein forever, Allâh Well-Pleased with them, and they with Him. That is for him who fears his Lord.


[Qur'an - Al Bayyinah [the Clear Proof/Evidence] 98]



Indeed, those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers and wish to discriminate between Allah and His messengers and say, "We believe in some and disbelieve in others," and wish to adopt a way in between -

They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment.

And those who believe in Allah and His Messengers and make no distinction between any of them (Messengers), We shall give them their rewards, and Allah is Ever Oft*Forgiving, Most Merciful.


[Qur'an 4: 150-2]
So one has to accept ALL the Messengers' of God, and if one was to reject even one of them - then they are in truth disbelievers, since they are saying that God has lied. We take the whole package, not just part of it.



Regards.
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vpb
06-15-2007, 03:23 PM
Heh. Well like I said, I'm pretty much the extreme case here of polar opposite to Islamic views. And for the record I take no offence in being called Kuffar. I think it sounds quite nifty. You'd have to do much better than that if you ever wanted to offend me.
please organize a course, and try to teach others :p
you're a very good man, as long as u take off that dog :P lolll just joking

Please provide me with the verses in the Koran where God forbids music.
it's Qur'an, not Koran, so I would be glad if you could write it like that. but anyways,
you can't always just say "provide me with verse", there are other methods, which rulings are derived and taken from Qur'an or Sunnah. That's why scholars have a big range of seeing things , much bigger range than us, so they take verses, hadiths etc. and they work day and night, and they come up with the ruling.
and myself, I think music is like alchool, it may be a good thing, bc through time people can change it, and look at today, how many people go to a disco just because a certain DJ is coming , and of course along with the music alchool , dancing with women/men, durgs is needed. so u see , that's why in Islam things are prevented before they happen, not after they happen. Like sexual act before marriage, Allah doesn't say "don't make zina (sex outside marriage)" but Allah says do not approach zina. Why bc once u approach zina, that's it, you will deviate and commit the act.
And also if you listen to the Qur'an, and then to music, u will see that the heart doesn't require music, cuz it destroyes it. but anyways there should be a thread about this.
Also remember, rulings in Islam, come in direct and indirect way.
for example Direct way : Don't eat pig's meat.
indirect way : the ruling of smoking, so you can't smoke.

:)
thx bro (qatada) for explaninig to MTAFFI
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snakelegs
06-15-2007, 06:41 PM
if i understand it right, most christians believe that you must be a christian to go to heaven and if you're not, you go to hell - even if you've never heard of christianity.
muslims are different - they make allowances for people who have never heard the message of islam, and only those who have heard it and failed to accept it will go to hell.
so here is something i've wondered about for awhile.
if a muslim does dawa and the person does not revert, he is now culpable and will burn in hell forever. so by telling him about islam, the muslim is now putting the non-believe in the position for the first time of going to hell.
how do musims feel about this?
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Grace Seeker
06-15-2007, 07:34 PM
vpb, the post which led to this thread included the following:
Originally Posted by vpb
The muslim's duty is to tell u the message, now wether u accept it or not, that has nothing to do with us. wether by citing you Qur'anic verses or hadiths your beliefs get stronger, or not I totally don't care. We as muslims believe that we can't guide people, it is only Allah az who guides people, , for those who reject the message, Allah either increases their stubborn against Islam, or brings them toward Islam. we might just deliver the message, and wether Allah az wants to guide you or not, that is Allah's decision. inshaAllah we have completed our duty upon you guys so we don't have to answer in front of Allah az on the day of judgmenet "why didn't u tell the people about the message". :)
It is the line: "we have completed our duty upon you guys so we don't have to answer in front of Allah" which I find most interesting.

If I read this at face value it seems that you don't actually have an interest in unbelievers, not as persons in their own right, but only as a means to an end -- that end being not having to answer in front of Allah. So Allah cares for non-believers, but to those who follow and submit their lives to Allah, we are just a duty, a task to be gotten out of the way in order that you may claim your reward.

Am I reading this correctly? Or am I reading too much into the comment?
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Muezzin
06-15-2007, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by Snakelegs
if i understand it right, most christians believe that you must be a christian to go to heaven and if you're not, you go to hell - even if you've never heard of christianity.
muslims are different - they make allowances for people who have never heard the message of islam, and only those who have heard it and failed to accept it will go to hell.
so here is something i've wondered about for awhile.
if a muslim does dawa and the person does not revert, he is now culpable and will burn in hell forever. so by telling him about islam, the muslim is now putting the non-believe in the position for the first time of going to hell.
how do musims feel about this?
That's one of the reasons I dislike the 'negative reinforcement/your way of life sucks and you will burn' method of preaching as opposed to the 'hey, check out my hot ride, there's plenty more available' method of preaching.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I see very few special responsibilities that muslims have here and non muslims don't. General forum good behaviour is something we should all have. In general I'd say it is very good here.

I'm one of the more inflamatory posters here, because my views are pretty much the polar opposite of islam (I find religion dangerous, I support legal prostitution, public nudity, and marijuana, etc for some extreme examples). I never make personal attacks but sometimes my views get people riled. That is to be expected. And I must say it is impressive how rarely I get attacked.
It's cos your dog is so cute. :p :)

As Woodrow noted, you folks are the only muslims many nonmuslims here will ever have long conversations with. Like it or not, you represent muslims in general to many of us, so if you snap and start calling people names etc it reflects badly on your faith.
Very true.

I think the only special responsibilities muslims here have is to honestly answer questions and to make it clear that they are just one person and do not represent islam as a whole. In all fairness they shouldn't have to remind nonmuslims of this, but given the nature of the forum and the fact that most nonmuslims won't know much about islam, it is something that muslims should keep in mind.
That's life I guess.
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vpb
06-15-2007, 08:16 PM
It is the line: "we have completed our duty upon you guys so we don't have to answer in front of Allah" which I find most interesting.

If I read this at face value it seems that you don't actually have an interest in unbelievers, not as persons in their own right, but only as a means to an end -- that end being not having to answer in front of Allah. So Allah cares for non-believers, but to those who follow and submit their lives to Allah, we are just a duty, a task to be gotten out of the way in order that you may claim your reward.
I doesn't mean that we deliver the message to you, now we should stop. NO, it;s not like that. You have to constantly warn people about things which are wrong. But I made a statement like from a point of view , that I've delivered my message upon you, so Allah doesn't ask me on day of judgement why did u stay with these people and did not tell them about the message. inshAllah.

and my duty is to convey the message to you, so wether u accept it or not, that's not my problem. that's why I dont have to worry about.

Allah saws said in the Qur'an:

3:176. Let not those grieve thee who rush headlong into Unbelief: Not the least harm will they do to Allah. Allah.s plan is that He will give them no portion in the Hereafter, but a severe punishment.

5:41. O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah.s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

so I don't have to worry wether u accept it or not, my duty as a muslim is to convey the message continuosly, so I don't keep it myself. It's a sin in Islam to keep the knowledge for yourself and not give to others.
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snakelegs
06-15-2007, 09:43 PM
That's one of the reasons I dislike the 'negative reinforcement/your way of life sucks and you will burn' method of preaching as opposed to the 'hey, check out my hot ride, there's plenty more available' method of preaching.
i agree. for me, the use of fear in order to persuade people (politicians do it all the time too) - is a complete turn-off and has the exact opposite effect on me.
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Woodrow
06-15-2007, 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
so here is something i've wondered about for awhile.
if a muslim does dawa and the person does not revert, he is now culpable and will burn in hell forever. so by telling him about islam, the muslim is now putting the non-believe in the position for the first time of going to hell.
how do musims feel about this?

For myself I find that to be a difficult question to answer. I do know that I am responsible for telling as much about Islam as I can in accordance with the abilities and knowledge Allah(swt) has given me. So my first question when a person refuses to accept it is to ask myself "How much of that refusal is my fault?" "Did I fail in presenting Islam as it is, and therefore the person does not know of Islam because I did not explain what it is." " Or did the person understand and is deliberately turning away even tho the believe it is the path they should look deeper into."

The final answer is I will one day have to explain if i truly tried my best to spread knowledge of Allah(swt) The person who refused to accept it will one day have to explain why they did not listen or show show that they truly did not receive enough information to say they had heard of Islam.

The final decision affecting both of us is in the will of Allah(swt).

Just my opinion, astagfirullah.
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vpb
06-15-2007, 10:15 PM
:sl:


I agree with u'r opinion bro Wodroow.
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barney
06-15-2007, 10:31 PM
I'd agree with the atheist above that threats are utterly pointless.
When I first joined the forum , I read the introductory thread
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...n-muslims.html

It basically says, now you have read this thread , you are warned. accept islam or burn.

I was going to just unsubscribe at that point. (Heh! i suppose a few people might wish I had), but I've certainly found that the majority of Muslims here have respect and are open to a good debate.

It's possible, i'm sure to talk about the carrot without showing the stick.
Reply

vpb
06-15-2007, 10:36 PM
It basically says, now you have read this thread , you are warned. accept islam or burn.
what do u want us to say? do u want us to lie and tell u that if you don't accept islam you will go to heaven??. it's common . I understand if a christian tells me that if u don't believe in Jesus a.s u go to hell. the message is simple.
You accept Islam you get rewarded, u dont, u get punished. Only a stupid/foolish person would not be afraid of punishment. (whatever type of punishment)
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barney
06-15-2007, 10:40 PM
So reading a thread on a forum explains all there is to know in order to accept Islam as the ultimate truth?

C'mon!
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vpb
06-15-2007, 10:43 PM
barney, I totally don't care. This is forum is to teach people about Islam. You accept Islam or not, I don't care. It;s your choice. you will be judged for youself not me. I will be judged for my own deeds. You take it or leave it.
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snakelegs
06-15-2007, 11:15 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
For myself I find that to be a difficult question to answer. I do know that I am responsible for telling as much about Islam as I can in accordance with the abilities and knowledge Allah(swt) has given me. So my first question when a person refuses to accept it is to ask myself "How much of that refusal is my fault?" "Did I fail in presenting Islam as it is, and therefore the person does not know of Islam because I did not explain what it is." " Or did the person understand and is deliberately turning away even tho the believe it is the path they should look deeper into."

The final answer is I will one day have to explain if i truly tried my best to spread knowledge of Allah(swt) The person who refused to accept it will one day have to explain why they did not listen or show show that they truly did not receive enough information to say they had heard of Islam.

The final decision affecting both of us is in the will of Allah(swt).

Just my opinion, astagfirullah.
thanks for your reply.
but it does make a muslim's responsibiliy much more serious than his christian counterpart because of this.
sometimes when you fail it is because most people you are talking to do not have an open mind. for example, i think i am pretty open-minded about islam (and there are a lot of things i like about it), but i am not open minded about joining any religion. you can make the world's best presentation, but you can not unlock another's mind.
but you already know that anyway.
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snakelegs
06-15-2007, 11:18 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
what do u want us to say? do u want us to lie and tell u that if you don't accept islam you will go to heaven??. it's common . I understand if a christian tells me that if u don't believe in Jesus a.s u go to hell. the message is simple.
You accept Islam you get rewarded, u dont, u get punished. Only a stupid/foolish person would not be afraid of punishment. (whatever type of punishment)
in order for a person to be afraid of punishment, he must first have to believe in an after-life.
but i agree - you are just telling it like it is in islam.
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vpb
06-15-2007, 11:19 PM
thanks for your reply.
but it does make a muslim's responsibiliy much more serious than his christian counterpart because of this.
sometimes when you fail it is because most people you are talking to do not have an open mind. for example, i think i am pretty open-minded about islam (and there are a lot of things i like about it), but i am not open minded about joining any religion. you can make the world's best presentation, but you can not unlock another's mind.
but you already know that anyway.
you never know :). one my friends was so anti-Islam, that if someone would try to talk to him about Islam would be ready to beat him, but now he is a very pious muslim. :) himself can't understand what happened :)

Whomsoever Allah guides, nobody can lead him astray, but whomsoever Allah leaves astray, nobody can guide him. :)
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vpb
06-15-2007, 11:22 PM
in order for a person to be afraid of punishment, he must first have to believe in an after-life.
but i agree - you are just telling it like it is in islam.
I'm not talking just about the punishment in the afterlife, I'm talking about punishment in general, a person who doesn't have fear from a punishment is not considered as normal. He is either stupid or doesn't comprehend the reality of punishment. Humans should have the feeling of fear and love. There should be a balance between, once cannot exist without the other,otherwise life is degenereated and the world of ilusions and dreams appears.
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snakelegs
06-15-2007, 11:27 PM
true, but in order to believe in the concept of divine punishment, a person first has to believe in the divine, and the concept in general. and next they have to believe that god wants you to follow a religion. so there have to be some common assumptions in order for the communication to work.
i realize what you are saying is islam's position and there is no need to sugar coat it, but personally, i think showing the good things about islam is much better.
just my 2 cents....
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barney
06-15-2007, 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by vpb
barney, I totally don't care. This is forum is to teach people about Islam. You accept Islam or not, I don't care. It;s your choice. you will be judged for youself not me. I will be judged for my own deeds. You take it or leave it.
Yeah sure, and I agree with you. i was just saying in the context of the thread , that writing a few paragraphs on a forum for people to read isnt "accepting Islam" if you read them. And threatening the hellfire is a sure way to put most people off.

Sure for some people, they'll read it and say "Freaking heck! I better accept this!" after reading it, but mayby not so many.:)
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Walter
06-15-2007, 11:29 PM
Hi IbnAbdulHakim:

I do not know how you can interpret that music is forbidden from 31:6.

31:6 - But there are, among men, those who purchase idle tales, without knowledge (or meaning), to mislead (men) from the Path of Allah and throw ridicule (on the Path): for such there will be a Humiliating Penalty.

However, let us assume that these “idle tales” are music, then it is referring to those who purchase it ignorantly for the expressed purpose of misleading others. This seems to indicate that there is a correct use of music.

Hi Malaikah:

It was reported in a saheeh hadeeth from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “In my ummah there will be people who allow fornication/adultery (zina), silk, wine and musical instruments [ma’aazif]. Some people will stay at the side of a mountain, and they will have flocks of sheep. When a poor person comes in the evening to ask them for something he needs, they will say. ‘Come back to us tomorrow.’ Then during the night Allaah will destroy them by causing the mountain to fall upon them, while He changes others into apes and swine. They will remain in such a state until the Day of Resurrection.’”
From this, the shepherds appeared to be punished for not lending assistance. Also, because “musical instruments” is used in this context does not imply that it is forbidden in my opinion. I agree that I may be wrong, but the evidence is certainly inconclusive.

Hi VPB:

Let me apologise for not writing Qur'an correctly. I was unaware that it was incorrect and was not previously instructed. Is this common knowledge and if so, can you direct me to a reputable source for verification? Thank you.

Your response, like that of Malaikah and IbnAbdulHakim seems to indicate that forbidding music is an Islamic tradition rather than a command from God. Please note that if it were a command from God, then it would be the first clear unexplainable case of inconsistency between the Books that came before and what was revealed in the Qur'an. I am therefore encouraged.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Regards,
Grenville
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vpb
06-15-2007, 11:32 PM
Yeah sure, and I agree with you. i was just saying in the context of the thread , that writing a few paragraphs on a forum for people to read isnt "accepting Islam" if you read them. And threatening the hellfire is a sure way to put most people off.

Sure for some people, they'll read it and say "Freaking heck! I better accept this!" after reading it, but mayby not so many.
That's why Allah swt always mentiones punishment and reward, if you read the Qur;an, you see that most of the time they are very close. Some people might not get interested if they are warned for punishment, but some people might get warned by telling them about Paradise. So it depends, some poeple are affected by telling them about punishment, some about the reward. That's why Allah swt talks about both. It's not about just accepting it. Allah swt wants people to look at the creation, contemplate, and reflect. Allah requires people to read, and get knowledge, so they can recognize Allah swt more and more, so that their belief gets stronger everyday.There is no blind faith in Islam, just accept it. You need to understand it. So that's why Allah swt brings examples of unbelievers and believerss, so people can think and see .

verily Allah is most merciful.
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vpb
06-15-2007, 11:40 PM
Let me apologise for not writing Qur'an correctly. I was unaware that it was incorrect and was not previously instructed. Is this common knowledge and if so, can you direct me to a reputable source for verification? Thank you.
thx for your understandings. the Qur'an is the source itself about its name. bc Koran is not a good looking word for Qur'an. It's like calling u Kronfille. :p

Your response, like that of Malaikah and IbnAbdulHakim seems to indicate that forbidding music is an Islamic tradition rather than a command from God. Please note that if it were a command from God, then it would be the first clear unexplainable case of inconsistency between the Books that came before and what was revealed in the Qur'an. I am therefore encouraged.
\
I think you didn;t pay attention much to my previous post. but i'll sumarize it for u again,.

1.Scholars are people who have a wider range of knowledge, so they see things further than we do.
2.Scholars know the classification of verses and hadiths for certain topics.
3.Scholars take those verses, and they come up with the answer for a certain issue.
4.or while they comment Qur'an, some ruling are derived.
5.Scholars don't make rulings just for the sake of tradition, or their desires.
6.Qur'an warns about making hallall haram and haram halall.
7.Nothing is made haram in Islam unless there is proof of it.
8.Commands come from God thorught directly and indirectly.
so we don't make rulings based on our own desires. actually everyone loves music, but it's not allowed :) so why would scholars forbid it even if we assume that they follow they own desires?

and I would recommend that the rulings about music, is not a topic which should be discussed with a non-muslim. cuz there are more important topics, much much more than music.
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snakelegs
06-16-2007, 12:05 AM
Originally Posted by vpb

and I would recommend that the rulings about music, is not a topic which should be discussed with a non-muslim. cuz there are more important topics, much much more than music.
i understand what you are saying and i don't want to go in to the subject of music, because by now i know the ruling, but i feel that i should tell you that this is a major stumbling block for lots of non-muslims, so it is not as un-important as you may think.
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Malaikah
06-16-2007, 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by Grenville
Your response, like that of Malaikah and IbnAbdulHakim seems to indicate that forbidding music is an Islamic tradition rather than a command from God.
It is a command from God because the prophet Muhammad pbuh said it was forbidden, he didn't forbid anything based on what he felt like, rather based on what Allah told him to do.

Please note that if it were a command from God, then it would be the first clear unexplainable case of inconsistency between the Books that came before and what was revealed in the Qur'an. I am therefore encouraged.
You mean like how the OT was all about pure monotheism and then the NT is somehow all about a trinity model of God? :)

I think we are rather off topic...
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vpb
06-16-2007, 08:45 AM
i understand what you are saying and i don't want to go in to the subject of music, because by now i know the ruling, but i feel that i should tell you that this is a major stumbling block for lots of non-muslims, so it is not as un-important as you may think.
Yes it is a major stumbling block for major of muslims, that's why I'm saying it's a subject which shouldn't be discussed with non-muslims, bc non-muslims don't have the faith in Allah, and when they see the ruling about music thay might say "woowww, this is extreme, I can't give up music, why would God forbid music...etc". Same thing happened in Arabia, arabs loved so much alchool, that many of them didn't accept Islam just bc they had to give up alchool, that's why Muhammed saws preached the oneness of Allah for 13 years, so when they become firm in belief, they don't say "ohh, but I love it,... but this and that". So when the became firm on their belief, when Muhammed saws got the reveleation about the ruling of alchool, the streets of Madinah we flooded by alchool. that's why I'm saying these are just things that non-muslims should not concentrate bc they don't have the thing of "hugging the tawheed of Allah swt and follow what He ordered through Gabriel a.s -> Muhammed saws".

Non-muslims should only be concentrated on learning about the Tawheed of Allah swt, once they learn that, and they understand and accept it, then they go the the second pillar, and then third ....and after 5 pillars then can go to more detailed things. Embracing Islam in one day is not recommended at all, otherwise it will win on the person and then he will drop it, as Muhammed saws said.

so again I advise non-muslims to concentrate only on learning about the tawheed(oneness of Allah swt).
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Walter
06-18-2007, 05:33 PM
Hi VPB:

Fair enough. Let us not discuss music or other similar traditions. However, these traditions where there is no explicit commandment from God within the Qu’ran is exactly the same issue as Christians and Jews having traditions that have no or at best very weak scriptural support. These traditions are OK once they do not violate what is written or inhibit a relationship with God.

Jesus was very critical about religious leaders whose religious tradition conflicted with God’s commandments as seen in the passage below.

1 Then the Pharisees and some of the scribes came together to Him, having come from Jerusalem. 2 Now when they saw some of His disciples eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. 3 For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands in a special way, holding the tradition of the elders. 4 When they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other things which they have received and hold, like the washing of cups, pitchers, copper vessels, and couches.

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?” 6 He answered and said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘ This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
7 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”
9 He said to them, “All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 11 But you say, ‘If a man says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is Corban”—’ (that is, a gift to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or his mother, 13 making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

14 When He had called all the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear Me, everyone, and understand: 15 There is nothing that enters a man from outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile a man. 16 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear!”

17 When He had entered a house away from the crowd, His disciples asked Him concerning the parable. 18 So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” 20 And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” Mark 7:1-23

Regards,
Grenville
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barney
06-18-2007, 10:21 PM
I suppose if your asking "how should Muslims respond to unbeleivers" in respect to propergating the faith.

I would suggest taking advice from Converts (reverts!) to Islam and promote the aspects of it that they found goodly.
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vpb
06-18-2007, 10:31 PM
However, these traditions where there is no explicit commandment from God within the Qu’ran is exactly the same issue as Christians and Jews having traditions that have no or at best very weak scriptural support.
a 234234234249871348729478923749872194239472 pages book should have been written in order to tell explicitely thing which are haram/hallall.
but that's why we have hadiths which portray the behaviour and the sayings of the Prophet Muhammed saws. and we have hadiths that explicitely say that the time will come when muslims will consider music as lawful. now it depends some scholars grade the hadith in different ways , that's a different thing. but anyways we better drop this topic :)
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