Hamas Full Control Of Gaza!

[Sinbad]

Hamas takes full control of Gaza
An uneasy calm has returned to the Gaza Strip where Hamas is in full control following a series of attacks on key strongholds of its rival, Fatah.
On its first day of rule, Hamas said it had released several top Fatah military commanders under a prisoner "amnesty".

At least 100 people have died during a week of factional fighting.

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has dissolved the Hamas-led unity government and is expected to name a caretaker administration within hours.

However, Prime Minister Ismail Haniya, of Hamas, said his government would ignore Mr Abbas's "hasty decision" and would press on and impose decisive law and order.

Relative calm

On Friday, vehicles returned to the roads and shops were open in Gaza. Few armed men were visible on the streets and there were reports of only sporadic gunfire.



The relative calm followed scenes of violence on Thursday as Hamas fighters seized remaining Fatah positions including the headquarters of Fatah's Preventative Security force and the presidential compound in Gaza City.

Hamas said it had captured several top Fatah military leaders, including the commanders of the National Security force and of the Presidential Guard.

However, the Islamist group later said it would release them unharmed as part of an "amnesty".

Meanwhile, Egyptian police said that about 100 senior Fatah officials had fled from Gaza into Egypt overnight aboard a fishing boat.

The Palestinian officials are thought to belong to Fatah's Preventive Security forces. They were transferred to police camps in Egypt where the wounded received treatment.

About 200 other Fatah security workers have already sought refuge in Egypt, officials said.

Hamas said it planned to take control of the Gaza-Egypt border crossing, which was patrolled by Fatah's Presidential Guard until the outbreak of violence on Saturday.

Rule by decree

President Abbas dismissed the three-month-old unity government on Thursday and declared a state of emergency.

He is expected to name an interim administration on Friday. He has said he will rule by presidential decree until the conditions are right for early elections.



Under the Palestinian Basic Law, essentially the Palestinian constitution, the president can rule by decree for 30 days. This can be extended with the approval of the parliament.

The BBC's Matthew Price in Jerusalem says this may be an irrelevance, as Mr Abbas appears to no longer have any influence in Gaza.

Our correspondent says the West Bank and Gaza Strip will now effectively be split from one another - Gaza run by Hamas and the West Bank by Fatah.

There are also fears that violence will spread to the West Bank, where Fatah is dominant. The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, affiliated to Fatah, has called for "martial law".

Hamas won a surprise victory in Palestinian elections in early 2006 but has since been engaged in an intermittently violent power struggle with Fatah.

Hamas, an Islamic organisation, rose to prominence in Gaza during two Palestinian uprisings and refuses to recognise or negotiate with Israel.

Fatah, a secular political grouping headed by Mr Abbas, ran the Palestinian Authority until 2006 and officially recognises Israel.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...st/6756079.stm

Published: 2007/06/15 11:01:56 GMT

© BBC MMVII
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Finally something new, its actually no war in Gaza right now!

I do not understand why they fight eachother. I would be lying if I said it makes me sad, but still.
All are arabs, all are palestinians, all are muslims et c.
And they are occupied by Israel.

Why do they still fight eachother?

[Zulkiflim]

Salaam,

simple one is a moderate muslim and the other is a muslim.

One side is supported by the west and toe the western agenda while the other fight for their own survival.

In every family there is a black sheep a traitor.
One who places his own lust/greed and so on in SPITE of Islam.

[Sinbad]

Salaam,

simple one is a moderate muslim and the other is a muslim.

One side is supported by the west and toe the western agenda while the other fight for their own survival.

In every family there is a black sheep a traitor.
One who places his own lust/greed and so on in SPITE of Islam.

Is fatah the moderate ones? That the west supports?

[Trumble]

Is fatah the moderate ones? That the west supports?

The West prefers them rather than 'supports' them, not least because they offered some chance of actually achieving a settlement via a two-state solution.

Fatah were fighting the Palestinian cause for thirty years before anyone had ever heard of Hamas... something that should be remembered by anyone attempting to re-define what has always been primarily a political conflict as a religious one.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Zulkiflim]

Is fatah the moderate ones? That the west supports?

Salaam,

Yes fatah is the moderate muslim,and moderate muslim as compared to muslim,are much loved by the west.

[Zulkiflim]

The West prefers them rather than 'supports' them, not least because they offered some chance of actually achieving a settlement via a two-state solution.

Fatah were fighting the Palestinian cause for thirty years before anyone had ever heard of Hamas... something that should be remembered by anyone attempting to re-define what has always been primarily a political conflict as a religious one.

Salaam,

The western world support fatah with weapons,monetary aid and training.

Fatah was set up to fight for palestinian but over time they lost the reason and became corrupt.

that is why in the election they lost,for people saw thru thema nd desired a change.

And it is not a a religious conflict rather a political one.

[Fishman]

:sl:

Hamas Full control of Gaza!

Uh oh...
:phew
:w:

[wilberhum]

Salaam,

The western world support fatah with weapons,monetary aid and training.

Fatah was set up to fight for palestinian but over time they lost the reason and became corrupt.

that is why in the election they lost,for people saw thru thema nd desired a change.

And it is not a a religious conflict rather a political one.

Any support from the Western World is always condemed. If we help, we are wrong, if we don't, we are wrong. I think we just need to step back and let each group kill each other. Well not really, but that is the only way it will end.

[Zman]

:sl:Peace To All

The Bush Doctrine Routed In Gaza

By ALI ABUMINAH
June 15, 2007
CounterPunch

The dramatic rout of the US and Israeli-backed Palestinian militias in Gaza by forces loyal to Hamas represents a major setback to the Bush doctrine in Palestine.

Ever since Hamas won the Palestinian legislative elections in the occupied territories in January 2006, elements of the leadership of the long-dominant Fatah movement, including Palestinian Authority chairman Mahmoud Abbas and his advisors have conspired with Israel, the United States and the intelligence services of several Arab states to overthrow and weaken Hamas.

This support has included funneling weapons and tens of millions of dollars to unaccountable militias, particularly the "Preventive Security Force" headed by Gaza warlord Mohammad Dahlan, a close ally of Israel and the United States and the Abbas-affiliated "Presidential Guard."

US Deputy National Security Advisor Elliott Abrams -- who helped divert money to the Nicaraguan Contras in the 1980s and who was convicted of lying to Congress in the Iran-Contra scandal -- has spearheaded the effort to set up these Palestinian Contras.

Abrams is also notorious for helping to cover up massacres and atrocities committed against civilians in El Salvador by US-backed militias and death squads.
Two recent revelations underscore the extent of the conspiracy:

On 7 June, Ha'aretz reported that "senior Fatah officials in the Gaza Strip have asked Israel to allow them to receive large shipments of arms and ammunition from Arab countries, including Egypt."

According to the Israeli newspaper, Fatah asked Israel for "armored cars, hundreds of armor-piercing RPG rockets, thousands of hand grenades and millions of rounds of ammunition for small caliber weapons," all to be used against Hamas.

From the moment of its election victory, Hamas acted pragmatically and with the intent to integrate itself into the existing political structure. It had observed for over a year a unilateral ceasefire with Israel and had halted the suicide attacks on Israeli civilians that had made it notorious.

In a leaked confidential memo written in May and published by The Guardian this week senior UN envoy Alvaro de Soto confirmed that it was under pressure from the United States that Abbas refused Hamas' initial invitation to form a "national unity government."

De Soto details that Abbas advisers actively aided and abetted the Israeli-US-European Union aid cutoff and siege of the Palestinians under occupation, which led to massively increased poverty for millions of people.

These advisors engaged with the United States in a "plot" to "bring about the untimely demise of the [Palestinian Authority] government led by Hamas," de Soto wrote.
Despite a bloody attempted coup against Hamas by the Dahlan-led forces in December and January, Hamas still agreed to join a "National Unity Government" with Fatah brokered by Saudi Arabia at the Mecca summit.

Dahlan and Abbas' advisers were determined to sabotage this, continuing to amass weapons, and refusing to place their militias under the control of a neutral interior minister who eventually resigned in frustration.

A Setback For United States and Israel

The core of US strategy in the Southwest and Central Asia, particularly Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, and Lebanon is to establish puppet regimes that will fight America's enemies on its behalf.

This strategy seems to be failing everywhere. The Taliban are resurgent in Afghanistan.

Despite its "surge" the US is no closer to putting down the resistance in Iraq and cannot even trust the Iraqi army it helped set up.

The Lebanese army, which the US hopes to bolster as a counterweight to Hizballah, has performed poorly against a few hundred foreign fighters holed up in Nahr al-Bared refugee camp (although it has caused death and devastation to many innocent Palestinian refugees).

Now in Gaza, the latest blow.

Israel's policy is a local version of the US strategy -- and it has also been tried and failed.

For over two decades Israel relied on a proxy militia, the South Lebanon Army, to help it enforce the occupation of southern Lebanon. In 2000, as Israeli forces hastily withdrew, this militia collapsed just as quickly as Dahlan's forces and many of its members fled to Israel.

Hamas is now referring to the rout of Dahlan's forces as a "second liberation of Gaza."
A consistent element of Israeli strategy has been to attempt to circumvent Palestinian resistance by trying to create quisling leaderships.

Into the 1970s, Israel still saw the PLO as representing true resistance. So it set up the collaborationist "village leagues" in the West Bank as an alternative.

In 1976, it allowed municipal elections in the West Bank in an effort to give this alternative leadership some legitimacy.

When PLO-affiliated candidates swept the board, Israel began to assassinate the PLO mayors with car bombs or force them into exile.

Once some exiled PLO leaders, most notably Yasser Arafat, became willing subcontractors of the occupation (an arrangement formalized by the Oslo Accords), a new resistance force emerged in the form of Hamas.

Israeli efforts to back Dahlan and Abbas, Arafat's successor, as quisling alternatives have now backfired spectacularly.

In the wake of the Fatah collapse in Gaza, Ha'aretz reported that Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert will advise President Bush that Gaza must be isolated from the West Bank.

This can be seen as an attempt to shore up Abbas whose survival Israel sees as essential to maintaining the fiction that it does not directly rule millions of disenfranchised Palestinians.

A total collapse of the Palestinian Authority would expose Israel's legal obligation, as the occupying power, to provide for the welfare of the Palestinians it rules.

What Now For The Palestinian Under Occupation?

Abbas has declared a "state of emergency" and dismissed Ismail Haniyeh the Hamas prime minister as well as the "national unity government."

The "state of emergency" is merely rhetorical. Whatever control he had in Gaza is gone and Israel is in complete control of the West Bank anyway.

Haniyeh in a speech this evening carried live on Al-Jazeera rejected Abbas' "hasty" moves and alleged that they were the result of pressure from abroad.

He issued 16 points, among them that the "unity government" represented the will of 96 percent of Palestinians under occupation freely expressed at the ballot box.

He reaffirmed his movement's commitment to democracy and the existing political system and that Hamas would not impose changes on people's way of life.

Haniyeh said the government would continue to function, would restore law and order and reaffirm Hamas' commitment to national unity and the Mecca agreement.

He called on all Hamas members to observe a general amnesty assuring any captured fighters of their safety (this followed media reports of a handful of summary executions of Fatah fighters).

He also emphasized that Hamas' fight was not with Fatah as a whole, but only with those elements who had been actively collaborating -- a clear allusion to Dahlan and other Abbas advisors.

He portrayed Hamas' takeover as a last resort in the wake of escalating lawlessness and coup attempts by collaborators, listing many alleged crimes that had finally caused Hamas' patience to snap.

Haniyeh emphasized the unity of Gaza and the West Bank as "inseparable parts of the Palestinian nation," and he repeated a call for the captors of BBC correspondent Alan Johnston to free him immediately.
The contrast between Abbas' action and the Hamas response is striking.

Abbas, perhaps pushed by the same coterie of advisors, seems to be escalating the confrontation and doing so when there is no reason to believe he can prevail.

Hamas, while standing firm and from a position of strength, spoke in a language of conciliation, emphasizing time and again that Hamas has a problem with only a small group within Fatah, not its rank and file.

Abbas, Dahlan and their backers must be surveying a sobering scene -- they may be tempted to try to take on Hamas in the West Bank, but the scale of their defeat in Gaza would have to give them pause.

Both leaderships are hemmed in.

Abbas appears to be entirely dependent on foreign and Israeli support and unable to take decisions independent of a corrupt, self-serving clique.

Hamas, whatever intentions it has is likely to find itself under an even tighter siege in Gaza.

Abbas, backed by Israel and the US, has called for a multinational force in Gaza. Hamas has rejected this, saying it would be viewed as an "occupying force."

Indeed, they have reason to be suspicious:

For decades Israel and the US blocked calls for an international protection force for Palestinians.

The multinational force, Hamas fears, would not be there to protect Palestinians from their Israeli occupiers, but to perform the proxy role of protecting Israel's interests that Dahlan's forces are longer able to carry out and to counter the resistance -- just as the multinational force was supposed to do in Lebanon after the July 2006 war.

Wise leaders in Israel and the United States would recognize that Hamas is not a passing phenomenon, and that they can never create puppet leaders who will be able to compete against a popular resistance movement.

But there are no signs of wisdom: the US has now asked Israel to "loosen its grip" in the West Bank to try to give Abbas a boost.

Although the Bush doctrine has suffered a blow, the Palestinian people have not won any great victory. The sordid game at their expense continues.

Ali Abunimah is cofounder of the online publication The Electronic Intifada, where this article originally appeared.

He is the author of One Country: A Bold Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse.

Source:
http://counterpunch.org/abuminah06152007.html

[Zulkiflim]

Any support from the Western World is always condemed. If we help, we are wrong, if we don't, we are wrong. I think we just need to step back and let each group kill each other. Well not really, but that is the only way it will end.

Salaam,

i would never say if you dont help you are wrong.

i would say you put yourself into this meddlesome situation and Inshallah what ever you give you will get back.

blowback.

In time Isnhallah,muslim the world over will see the US as the true enemy and at that time should the US interfere again,then we shall FIGHT THEM AS THEY FIGHT YOU.

As the Bush adminsitration say,we should kill them there before they kill us here.

And i agree,we should ----- before they leave their land to kill others.

"But exceed not in the trangression"..

[wilberhum]

the world over will see the US as the true enemy

Right! Thanks for verifying my thoughts. Now explain why we should help those that concider us the "True Enemy".
And you want to kill us. Quite lovely.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Im gunna make the barf face everytime i read moderate Muslim. And I am definitely not kidding! +o(

[Muezzin]

Guys, can we please discuss this without saying that we want to kill each other?

[NobleMuslimUK]

:sl:
I am glad the Hamas has taken control, but lets hope they do things the right way. Palestinians need to be strong to defeat their zionist occupying and oppressing enemy, Inshallah. I never trust any western supported or funded government as most muslims dont because we know they are backstabbing snakes. Obviously the zionist media will bombard the world with a negative view, to demonise Hamas and further curb peace process encouraging more blood shed on both side. Thanks to Allah more and more people are becoming wiser to their evil plans.

[MTAFFI]

I see a lot of Muslims on here are thinking this is really great, but maybe rather than being happy about this just because a militant group took over gaza you should take a look a little closer. Now Palestine is divided, the people of Gaza are fenced in, it is very likely that the maybe million people there will have a humanitarian crisis because no one is going to bring anything through to them now, with a ruthless group like hamas coming to power there. Also lets take a look at those who are now in power, they have slaughtered over 100 muslims in the area, that is not islamic is it? What is the point of them taking control like this, what will they now achieve? They executed people in front of their families, which is getting any supporters, they looted the place blind and threw people off of roof tops... I do not think any of this is any good. Peace will be the only way for Palestine to get rid of the conflict with Israel, stop the attacks on Israel, negotiate peace and try to get along with their neighbor and they very well may be happy people, but what has transpired over these last couple days is not good and I would bet that Allah is not smiling about it either.

[Keltoi]

I see a lot of Muslims on here are thinking this is really great, but maybe rather than being happy about this just because a militant group took over gaza you should take a look a little closer. Now Palestine is divided, the people of Gaza are fenced in, it is very likely that the maybe million people there will have a humanitarian crisis because no one is going to bring anything through to them now, with a ruthless group like hamas coming to power there. Also lets take a look at those who are now in power, they have slaughtered over 100 muslims in the area, that is not islamic is it? What is the point of them taking control like this, what will they now achieve? They executed people in front of their families, which is getting any supporters, they looted the place blind and threw people off of roof tops... I do not think any of this is any good. Peace will be the only way for Palestine to get rid of the conflict with Israel, stop the attacks on Israel, negotiate peace and try to get along with their neighbor and they very well may be happy people, but what has transpired over these last couple days is not good and I would bet that Allah is not smiling about it either.

I don't know how Allah feels about it, but those who feel some kind of "victory" because Hamas took over parts of the Palestinian territory aren't thinking about the Palestinians at all. It's pretty sad how many Muslims give lip service to improving the lives of Palestinians, but call those who are attempting to find a peaceful solution to the conflict as "traitors". Those who are happy about what is going on this week are living in their own little bubble.

[wilberhum]

I think it is interesting that some rejoice because this is some kind of “Great Blow” to the US.
The US was some what pro-Fatah because they were seen as the “Best Hope” for peace.

In reality they rejoice because now there is even less hope for peace.

[Sinbad]

Iran will send Hamas money, as always. Iran is the reason palestinians are still alive...

Still they worshipp Saddam and say death to the arabs enemies, Israel, USA, Iran...

[Cognescenti]

This notion that a "Bush Doctrine" has been undone by a Hamas capture of Fatah offices in Gaza is indeed rich.

The term "Doctrine" when applied to American foreign policy has been used historically to denote a broad, strategic diplomatic effort of global import. Typically it is accompanied by an official pronouncement because the whole point is for foreign countries to understand clearly the goal of the US. A good example would be the "Monroe Doctrine".

American lukewarm support for Fatah (or more importantly Abbas) has more to do about what is wrong with his opponents than what is right about Fatah. It's like going to the fishmarket and trying to pick between the 3 day old Halibut and the 5 day old cod. It is more a question of which fish doesn't smell quite as bad. It certainly is not part of some "Doctrine".

Fatah are corrupt, selfish, incompetent and clueless. Hamas are.......

[north_malaysian]

Hamas controls Gaza
Fatah controls West Bank

Hamas killed Fatah members in Gaza
Fatah killed Hamas members in West Bank

Hamas looted Fatah offices in Gaza
Fatah looted Hamas offices in West Bank

Now we all can say goodbye to an independent state of Palestine
And say welcome to Republic of Gaza and Republic of West Bank

We could no longer referring them as Palestinians
And should starting calling them Gazans or West Bankers

The Zionists are laughing
The Westerners are worrying
The Muslims are sick looking at their brethren there.

[Zman]

It's pretty sad how many Muslims give lip service to improving the lives of Palestinians, but call those who are attempting to find a peaceful solution to the conflict as "traitors"...

It's also pretty sad how many non-Muslims give lip service & shed crocodile tears to improving the lives of Palestinians, but call those who are attempting to find acceptable term of subjugation," as peacemakers."

Your alleged peacemakers that you shed crocidile tears for, were classified as terrorists by us, not too long ago.

Your alleged peacemakers weren't accepted by the Israeli's and our administration, when they assumed power, but considered Abbas as the lesser of 2 evils (being that Arafat was the bigger evil).

It's all about our constantly shifting labeling and hypocrisy...

[Plexus]

While I get no pleasure from anyone dying, the fact is that it makes no difference whether it's Hamas or Fatah. Both have no intention of living peacefully with a permanent Jewish State as their neighbor…whatever their assorted whitewashers say. Abbas himself ran on a platform for Israel's destruction. He and his folks are simply willing to sing the right tune to Western ears to gain support so the international squeeze can be put on the Jews. To its credit, Hamas is more honest about its murderous intent.

Dozens have been killed and wounded as Gaza implodes. If Israel was doing this, imagine the international outcry.

Arabs can now forget about the Jews handing over the West Bank as they did with Gaza.

Gaza was a test, and the Arabs flunked it with flying colors.

Keep in mind that America has been pressing the Jews to arm or allow arms to reach the sweet-talking Arafatians. Latest reports state that Hamas has confiscated much of these arms and equipment already delivered from Fatah (which has also used them themselves against Jews).

The fight Abbas & Co. have with Hamas is basically over who gets control of the money which is and will be pouring in. Arafat made zillions this way. And it is about, of course, which group will be calling the shots--really and figuratively speaking.

Let the Arabs fight it out. They had their chance at state building and blew it big time. They chose what the late professor, Richard Cottam (Nationalism In Iran), George Orwell (Notes On Nationalism ), and others have called negative nationalism over the more tedious responsibilities of positive nationalism.

Israel got nothing in return for its unilateral withdrawal from Gaza--land used repeatedly to launch warfare and terror against it--except what most of us expected…more terror, but this time launched closer to home. As even the alleged "moderate" Arafatians repeatedly said, any dealings with the Jews would just serve as a Trojan Horse, bringing them one step closer each time in their post-'67 destruction in stages plans for the Jews.

Poll after poll has shown that if Israel withdrew from every inch of disputed territory, most Arabs would still refuse its right to exist.

[Amadeus85]

European Union has just stopped every helping programs for Gaza and Israel closed Gaza's borders.

[Amadeus85]

I think that devoted muslims should be very unhappy that Hamas win in Gaza. Why ? Because muslims here say that terrorism and attacking innocent is against islam and Quaran. So Hamas is un islamic movement, that acts against Quaran and islamic teaching.

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

'Multinational Force Must Fight Hamas'

By HILLARY LEILA KRIEGER AND AP
Jun. 15, 2007 14:24
Updated Jun. 15, 2007 15:49
Jerusalem Post

A proposed multinational force deployed along the Gaza Strip's border with Egypt must be willing to fight Hamas to stop weapons smuggling in the area, Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said Friday.

Livni said Israel was not interested in any proposal involving a monitoring force for the Philadelphi corridor where, she said, Hamas used tunnels to bring in weapons.

"Those who are talking in terms of international forces have to understand that the meaning is not monitoring forces but forces that are willing to fight, to confront Hamas on the ground," Livni said.

"The question is the effectiveness of these (multinational) forces. We don't need monitors to come in to tell us about the (smuggling), we need someone to stop it," she told a news conference during an official visit to Portugal.

Livni rejected the possibility of deploying an international force inside the Gaza Strip.

"I don't think that this is relevant ... when the situation is that Hamas controls everything," she said.

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon discussed the possible deployment of a multinational force in Gaza with the Security Council on Wednesday.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Tuesday proposed stationing international forces along the Gaza Strip's border with Egypt to prevent arms from reaching Palestinian terrorists.

Livni said the Gaza Strip fighting was "an internal problem" for Palestinians.

"Let's wait and see what the Palestinians do," she said. "We are waiting. We are watching the situation very closely."

She urged the international community to join Israel in strengthening the strategy of isolating extremist movements, such as Hamas, and encouraging moderates, including Fatah.

On Thursday, US officials expressed doubt that the international community would be willing to risk its troops in the region.

US State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said that although the US would consider any such proposal, it was unlikely that any country would be ready to volunteer forces.

"We'll, of course, take a look at whatever the Secretary General has to propose. And I have to confess I haven't seen any details of such a proposal. But I would, just as an initial reaction, put out for you that I think it would be difficult to find forces that would be ready and effective in going into such a clearly non-permissive environment," said McCormack.

Related Material:

JPost columnists on the future of the PA
The fall of Gaza (June 15 editorial)
Palestinian Affairs: Fatah's death blow
Hamas victory could be opportunity for Israel
Egypt's difficult task in Gaza
Disconnect from Gaza or talk to Hamas?


Source:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

My Comment:

1. Of course Israel wants the "multinational force" to fight it's war on its behalf.

God only knows that Israel had no success before in stopping the weapons smuggling when it had boots on the ground in Gaza, or defeating nor eradicating Hamas.

2. Israel's bitter deafeat at the hands of Hizbullah, still resonates loud-and-clear, in its collective psyche.

3. Livni, stated that the war in Gaza was an "internal problem."

So, the alleged multinational force would serve better if it was stationed inside Gaza inorder to aid Hamas in keeping the peace, and stopping future clashes between Hamas and the remnants of Fatah.

Furthermore, basing the "multinational force," along the Egyptian/Gazan border doesn't make sense. Hamas already has sufficient weapons; they can be smuggled in via other routes; and they can develop some types internally.

4. It would seem that Israel's sinister intention is to:

a) Collectively punish and starve the ENTIRE Gazan population.

b) To plug the Egyptian/Gazan hole, inorder for Israel to initiate another act of aggression by invading Gaza and attempting to crush Hamas, once and for all.

That way Hamas will have an extremely difficult time in re-supplying itself with much needed weapons to protect the Palestinians of Gaza.

Israel, already controls the Gazan/Israeli border, Gaza's airspace, and it's coast; only the Egyptian side isn't directly under Israeli .

If it can have an Occupation Force assume control of that area, the envelopment of Gaza would be complete, and mass starvation would ensue.

5. This dark plan also shows that Israel doesn't trust its peace partner and ally, Egypt.

6. It also shows how much of an ingrate Israel truly is. After all the help it received from Egypt in stopping many smuggling attempts, and the economic embargo that was instituted on the PA, ever since Hamas was legally & democratically elected by the majority of the Palestinian people.

7. By stationing this "multinational force," along the Egyptian/Gazan border, Israel would be killing 2 birds with one stone:

a) the complete envelopment and total Israeli control of Gaza (this proves that Israel never truly withdrew from Gaza, since it still controls the Gazan/Israeli border, Gaza's airspace and coast)

b) This alleged "multinational force," would be another buffer, defensive line and early warning, of any future Egyptian armed attack on Israel.

This is Just another example of Israel's dirty tactics.

[Zulkiflim]

Right! Thanks for verifying my thoughts. Now explain why we should help those that concider us the "True Enemy".
And you want to kill us. Quite lovely.

Salaam,

If that is help,then i think you cna keep it.

And dont worry we will help you too soon enough.

Inshallah,but exceed not in trangression"

[Zulkiflim]

I think that devoted muslims should be very unhappy that Hamas win in Gaza. Why ? Because muslims here say that terrorism and attacking innocent is against islam and Quaran. So Hamas is un islamic movement, that acts against Quaran and islamic teaching.

Salaam,

Me for one are happy that Hamas won,and the Hamas fought as they fight you.

fatah is supported by the western world ,corruption and sadistic,
that the reason why the Palestinian voted for Hamas,they want to end the occupation and the PLO corruption.

[Zulkiflim]

:sl:/Peace To All



My Comment:

1. Of course Israel wants the "multinational force" to fight it's war on its behalf.

God only knows that Israel had no success before in stopping the weapons smuggling when it had boots on the ground in Gaza, or defeating nor eradicating Hamas.

2. Israel's bitter deafeat at the hands of Hizbullah, still resonates loud-and-clear, in its collective psyche.

3. Livni, stated that the war in Gaza was an "internal problem."

So, the alleged multinational force would serve better if it was stationed inside Gaza inorder to aid Hamas in keeping the peace, and stopping future clashes between Hamas and the remnants of Fatah.

Furthermore, basing the "multinational force," along the Egyptian/Gazan border doesn't make sense. Hamas already has sufficient weapons; they can be smuggled in via other routes; and they can develop some types internally.

4. It would seem that Israel's sinister intention is to:

a) Collectively punish and starve the ENTIRE Gazan population.

b) To plug the Egyptian/Gazan hole, inorder for Israel to initiate another act of aggression by invading Gaza and attempting to crush Hamas, once and for all.

That way Hamas will have an extremely difficult time in re-supplying itself with much needed weapons to protect the Palestinians of Gaza.

Israel, already controls the Gazan/Israeli border, Gaza's airspace, and it's coast; only the Egyptian side isn't directly under Israeli .

If it can have an Occupation Force assume control of that area, the envelopment of Gaza would be complete, and mass starvation would ensue.

5. This dark plan also shows that Israel doesn't trust its peace partner and ally, Egypt.

6. It also shows how much of an ingrate Israel truly is. After all the help it received from Egypt in stopping many smuggling attempts, and the economic embargo that was instituted on the PA, ever since Hamas was legally & democratically elected by the majority of the Palestinian people.

7. By stationing this "multinational force," along the Egyptian/Gazan border, Israel would be killing 2 birds with one stone:

a) the complete envelopment and total Israeli control of Gaza (this proves that Israel never truly withdrew from Gaza, since it still controls the Gazan/Israeli border, Gaza's airspace and coast)

b) This alleged "multinational force," would be another buffer, defensive line and early warning, of any future Egyptian armed attack on Israel.

This is Just another example of Israel's dirty tactics.

Salaam,

And Islmaic Egypt will help,,,,pretty sad,they will kill theose of their own faith..

As i said,the west like to play divide and conquer....but if the mouse takes the bite,,both are in error.

[Trumble]

that the reason why the Palestinian voted for Hamas,they want to end the occupation and the PLO corruption.

Actually a third of Palestinians voted for Hamas (44.45% of a turnout of 75%) - the rest voted for somebody else, or didn't vote at all.

[nevesirth]

america is only interested in supporting anyone for its selfish reasons. y on earth are they supporting fatah against hamas, its because they want to use fatah as a tool to fight hamas. when they feel fatah is no longer relevant to their course, theyll label them a terrorist organization and look for another tool to destroy them. its all a game played by the americans.


let the palestinians choose their own goverment

[wilberhum]

america is only interested in supporting anyone for its selfish reasons. y on earth are they supporting fatah against hamas, its because they want to use fatah as a tool to fight hamas. when they feel fatah is no longer relevant to their course, theyll label them a terrorist organization and look for another tool to destroy them. its all a game played by the americans.


let the palestinians choose their own goverment

Or maybe we see Fatah as the best chance for peace. I sure do. With Fatah I think there is about a 1% chance, with Hamas, it is zero.

[nevesirth]

Or maybe we see Fatah as the best chance for peace. I sure do. With Fatah I think there is about a 1% chance, with Hamas, it is zero.

la, i dnt think america is supporting fatah with the aim of making peace. they see a group within fatah as corrupt and gullible, so they can lure them into aiding in the destruction of other palestines. theyll get rid of fatah when they no longer require fatahs services. same thing they did with the MUJAHADEEN in the early eighties or so. they supported them i think against the soviet union, but now they label the MUJAHADDEN a terrorist organization. i think they want to save the lives of americans and israelis by using palestines to fight palestines. reduce the casualty on the side of america and israel.!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

Fatah's Final Death Blow

By KHALED ABU TOAMEH
Jun. 14, 2007 19:14
Updated Jun. 15, 2007 19:12
Jerusalem Post

Why did the Gaza Strip fall so easily and quickly into the hands of Hamas? How come Fatah, which has more than 40,000 armed men there, was defeated despite the millions of dollars and the large amounts of weapons that it received over the past year and a half?

These are only some of the questions that decision-makers in Washington and many European capitals have been asking in the wake of the "military coup" staged by Hamas in the Gaza Strip this week.

While these decision-makers may have been caught by surprise by the Hamas victories, for many Palestinians - particularly those living in the Gaza Strip - the writing has long been on the wall.

Fatah lost the battle for the Gaza Strip not because it had fewer soldiers and weapons, but because it lost the confidence and support of many Palestinians a long time ago.

The decline of Fatah actually began with the day Yasser Arafat died in November 2004.
Since then, Fatah has been dealt one blow after another.

The biggest disaster occurred in January 2006, when Fatah was defeated by Hamas in the parliamentary elections in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Fatah lost the vote mainly because of its leaders' involvement in rampant corruption and abuse of power.

Mahmoud Abbas, who succeeded Arafat in January 2005, had run on a platform that promised Palestinians an end to corruption, mismanagement and nepotism.

That's why more than 60 percent of the Palestinians then gave him a mandate.

But after Abbas came to power, he did almost nothing to fulfill his pledges.

Instead of fighting corruption, he surrounded himself with symbols of corruption and former Arafat cronies.

Instead of ending the anarchy and lawlessness, he promoted notorious warlords, and for the first time, the number of Palestinians killed in internal fighting under Abbas was higher than those killed by Israel.

And instead of dismantling gangs and militias, whose members had long been terrorizing the Palestinian public, Abbas rewarded many of them by granting them "military" ranks and placing them on his payroll.

Many voters who went to the ballot boxes in January 2006 wanted to punish Abbas and his Fatah faction for having failed to improve their living conditions on all fronts.

That's why they voted for Hamas.

Even some Christians are said to have cast their ballots for Hamas.

The name of the game back then was: Let's punish these Fatah thieves and thugs who have been stealing our money and terrorizing us for so many years.
ON THE eve of the 2006 election, Hamas knew exactly what the Palestinians wanted:

An end to financial corruption and good governance.

That's why Hamas ran under the banner of Change and Reform.

That's also why Hamas put on its list of candidates doctors, university professors, engineers, pharmacists and lawyers.

By contrast, the Fatah list did not come up with any new faces.

Hamas won because its leaders promised the Palestinians good governance and an end to anarchy and lawlessness.

Hamas also won because there was still a large percentage of Palestinians who believed that "Islam is the solution."

US-backed efforts to undermine the Hamas-led government over the past 16 months have failed, largely because most Palestinians clearly do not regard Fatah as a better alternative to Hamas.

In the aftermath of its defeat in the 2006 election, Fatah failed to draw the conclusions and get rid of all the icons of corruption among its top brass. Moreover, Fatah did not engage in any kind of internal reforms, and representatives of the young generation remained marginalized.

Even if free and democratic elections were held tomorrow in the Palestinian territories, it is highly unlikely that Palestinians would vote for the same people they voted out in 2006.

Besides, many Palestinians would argue that Hamas did not fail in government; from day one, no one actually gave them a chance to rule.

BY OPENLY embracing Abbas and Fatah, Washington has caused them grave damage.

The weapons and funds that were supposed to boost Fatah ahead of a confrontation with Hamas have only increased Hamas's popularity on the streets of the Gaza Strip.

The public support for Fatah made Abbas and Muhammed Dahlan look, in the eyes of many Palestinians, like Antoine Lahad, the former commander of the pro-Israeli South Lebanon Army.

And when a Palestinian sees that the Americans are trying to bring down his democratically-elected government, his sympathies go straight to the government and not to those allegedly involved in the conspiracy.

The writing was on the wall because Hamas had already inflicted heavy casualties on Fatah in previous rounds of fighting over the past year.

In addition, it was clear that Hamas was eventually going to take over the entire Gaza Strip, because of the anarchy and disunity among the Fatah-controlled Palestinian security forces and their commanders.


It was obvious that Fatah was going to lose, because the masses were not going to take to the streets to defend leaders living in villas and driving luxury cars.

Source:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

[mariam.]

I see a lot of Muslims on here are thinking this is really great, but maybe rather than being happy about this just because a militant group took over gaza you should take a look a little closer. Now Palestine is divided, the people of Gaza are fenced in, it is very likely that the maybe million people there will have a humanitarian crisis because no one is going to bring anything through to them now, with a ruthless group like hamas coming to power there. Also lets take a look at those who are now in power, they have slaughtered over 100 muslims in the area, that is not islamic is it? What is the point of them taking control like this, what will they now achieve? They executed people in front of their families, which is getting any supporters, they looted the place blind and threw people off of roof tops... I do not think any of this is any good. Peace will be the only way for Palestine to get rid of the conflict with Israel, stop the attacks on Israel, negotiate peace and try to get along with their neighbor and they very well may be happy people, but what has transpired over these last couple days is not good and I would bet that Allah is not smiling about it either.

peace be upon you:

Actually, I think you are right .. we should take a look a little closer to this affair.

I live in the Middle East .. and I know exactly what really happen and what the definitive results to it.
I believe as the majority of moslems that you can't freight Hamas the complete responsibility .. I can't disprove that Hamas makes NOW alot of errors but at the same time they are a militant group and a calling Owner.

We have NO problems with jews,they can share us with our Land, Homes, money and hearts .. this conflict start whene they violate our our rights, kill us, destroy our home, violate our sacred place and refuse us to pray in farthest mosque.

do you know how many palestinian emigrants there is?

they are 7 million .. do you imagine?
this affair is have into it more and more hedges between us and this peace that you talking about.

thank you for your positve remedy.
peace

[wilberhum]

la, i dnt think america is supporting fatah with the aim of making peace. they see a group within fatah as corrupt and gullible, so they can lure them into aiding in the destruction of other palestines. theyll get rid of fatah when they no longer require fatahs services. same thing they did with the MUJAHADEEN in the early eighties or so. they supported them i think against the soviet union, but now they label the MUJAHADDEN a terrorist organization. i think they want to save the lives of americans and israelis by using palestines to fight palestines. reduce the casualty on the side of america and israel.!!!!!!!!!!!!

You just can't accept the possibility that the US has any positive intentions. :?
Of course if you view the entire world from one window, you limit your view. :skeleton:

[nevesirth]

You just can't accept the possibility that the US has any positive intentions. :?
Of course if you view the entire world from one window, you limit your view. :skeleton:

i dnt view the entire world from one window. if the u s really has any positive intentions, they have failed to prove it. not with their use of excessive force at the slightest opportunity!!!!!!!!

[mariam.]

Or maybe we see Fatah as the best chance for peace. I sure do. With Fatah I think there is about a 1% chance, with Hamas, it is zero.

With Fatah I think there is about a 0% chance for ending Occupation, with Hamas is 0.0000000001% chance.

So I think Hamas is better :D

[wilberhum]

i dnt view the entire world from one window. if the u s really has any positive intentions, they have failed to prove it. not with their use of excessive force at the slightest opportunity!!!!!!!!

Thanks for confirming that You just can't accept the possibility that the US has any positive intentions. :?
May be I can set up with an appointment with GWB to give you the proof you need. :skeleton:

[wilberhum]

With Fatah I think there is about a 0% chance for ending Occupation, with Hamas is 0.0000000001%

So I think Hamas is better :D

Well I'm not going to argue that difference. :D

[nevesirth]

are there any palestinians on this forum? would love to hear the views of a true palestinian on this matter.

shukran

[mariam.]

Well I'm not going to argue that difference. :D

Ok as you want .. LOL :)

but I want to know your view about my past reply number 34.

[wilberhum]

Ok as you want .. LOL :)

but I want to know your view about my past reply number 34.

I'm with you. :thumbs_up I always post that there are two sides. No side is all good and the other all bad. :?
Some on likened choosing between Fatah & Hamas to choosing between 3 day old cod and 5 day old halibut, or some thing like that. :skeleton:

It is not a choice for the greater good, it is a choice for the least bad.

But what ever, no group is above valid criticism. :thumbs_up

[Plexus]

I think that devoted muslims should be very unhappy that Hamas win in Gaza. Why ? Because muslims here say that terrorism and attacking innocent is against islam and Quaran. So Hamas is un islamic movement, that acts against Quaran and islamic teaching.

assalamu alaykum
Always ask for a definition of innocence here.
Understand peace in the context of Islamic teachings
When understanding who is the innocent study the Islamic contract very carefully, all the small print. Understand dar-alislam dar-alhab. Especially ask does innocent, charity and peace refer solely to Muslims? Or can the beneficiary be a non-Muslim?
Mix religion with politics.
Then you can see the sense in its incomprehensible.:raging:
Have faith in man that one day we can resolve conflit without killing each other:phew

[snakelegs]

things may just get even worse than they already are.
full article
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle1942918.ece
Israel plans attack on GazaUzi Mahnaimi
ISRAEL’s new defence minister Ehud Barak is planning an attack on Gaza within weeks to crush the Hamas militants who have seized power there.

According to senior Israeli military sources, the plan calls for 20,000 troops to destroy much of Hamas’s military capability in days.

The raid would be triggered by Hamas rocket attacks against Israel or a resumption of suicide bombings.

Barak, who is expected to become defence minister tomorrow, has already demanded detailed plans to deploy two armoured divisions and an infantry division, accompanied by assault drones and F-16 jets, against Hamas.

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

Gaza Isolation To Backfire: Analysts

Courtesy Of: IslamOnline
16/06/2007
04:01:05 PM GMT

WASHINGTON - The US isolation of Gaza after Hamas's takeover of the impoverished strip, home to 1.5 million Palestinians, would have grave security and humanitarian consequences and backfire at the end of the day, American analysts, former and current US administration officials warned Saturday, June 16.

"We could see Gaza be the font of a much more militant radicalism than we have seen in the Palestinian community so far," Jon Alterman, director of the Middle East program at the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) think tank, told Reuters.

"We have not seen Al-Qaeda in the Palestinian community so far but a Gaza that has imploded would create the medium where that could really grow."

...Israeli newspapers reported Saturday that Israeli authorities said it will cut off electricity in the Gaza Strip in the days to come, holding Hamas responsible for ensuing humanitarian catastrophe.

Led by the US , the West slapped economic siege on the Palestinians since Hamas was voted to power last year, greatly affecting livelihood in the Palestinian lands.

Backfire:

Analysts warned that Washington 's "West Bank first" policy would eventually backfire.

"The options right now are very bad," said Aaron Miller, a former State Department official and Arab-Israeli specialist.

"Walling Gaza up to bring Hamas to heel is not going to work. That only will increase the desperation and sense of helplessness and open door to groups with more extremist ideologies," he said.

An Arab diplomat warned that the US isolation of Gaza would breed more disaffection among the Palestinians.

"What are we going to do with Gaza . Light it up on fire?" the diplomat told Reuters, requesting anonymity.

A senior US official acknowledged the danger of isolating the impoverished strip.

"It's tricky, I admit that. There's a fine balance," said the official.

American analysts agreed Friday, June 15, that the US intervention in the Palestinian affairs and categorization of Palestinian factions into moderates and extremists were partly to blame for the Gaza chaos and the intensifying power struggle between Fatah and Hamas, and left plans for a unified Palestinian state up in the air.

More Sufferings:

Aid groups have further expressed deep concerns at isolating the Gaza Strip, which is already hit by the worst humanitarian crisis in decades due to the west's boycott.

"Internal fighting is partly a reaction to the situation - lack of jobs and few opportunities," Rima Al Rakhawi, a Gaza-based partner of Christian Aid charity, told Reuters.

...The UN on Saturday urged Israel to reopen crossings into Gaza to avoid deepening the sufferings of the Palestinians in the tiny territory.

"The borders need to be open," John Ging, head of the UN agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA), told AFP.

"We cannot collectively punish 1.5 million people in the Gaza Strip. They are already living in miserable conditions."

Israel closed all of its border crossing points with Gaza after Hamas seized control of the strip on Thursday.

The sealed crossings include the Rafah terminal on the border with Egypt -- Gaza 's only window to the outside world, raising alarm about the impact on Gaza , a tiny densely-populated territory that receives the vast majority of its food, and all its fuel and medical supplies via Israel .

"The crossings remaining closed is not an option," said Ging.

"The Gaza Strip is entirely dependent of the importation of not just aid, but also commercial trade," he said, adding that 80 percent of Gaza 's population depended on foreign aid.

Source:
http://islamonline.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=12157

[sister herb]

Hamas controls Gaza
Fatah controls West Bank

Hamas killed Fatah members in Gaza
Fatah killed Hamas members in West Bank

Salaam alaykum

this is just what zionists enemy wants. :phew

I wonder if there have even been fighting between Hamas and Fatah but fighting between Hamas and traitors whose make work for Israel. These traitors don´t only want to halt resistance against zionist enemy but also destroy Hamas and Fatah too, even then when some puppet leaders of Fatah are not valuable for they goals anymore.

But don´t take my words too serious because I am Hamas supporter. :statisfie

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

US Meddling To Blame For Gaza Crisis

Courtesy Of: IslamOnline
16/06/2007
02:00:54 PM GMT

CAIRO - The US intervention in the Palestinian affairs and categorization of Palestinian factions into moderates and extremists are partly to blame for the Gaza chaos, the intensifying power struggle between Fatah and Hamas and left plans for a unified Palestinian state up in the air, American analysts said Friday, June 15.

"The less we try to intervene and shape Palestinian politics, the better off we will be," Robert Malley, an expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with the International Crisis Group, told The Washington Post.

"Almost every decision the United States has made to interfere with Palestinian politics has boomeranged."

Almost three years ago following the death of veteran Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat , US President George W. Bush stood in the White House's Rose Garden and laid out his vision for the Palestinians and called for democratic elections for future leadership.

But democracy brought Hamas to power in a shock win to the US administration, Israel and the West, which all tried their best to marginalize Hamas and slapped a crippling economic boycott of its government.

Washington organized a financial boycott of the government, in an effort to showcase Abbas as a moderate alternative in his role as president.

Well-placed sources had further told Reuters that the US and EU backed the training of Fatah's troops in Jordan to reinforce Abbas in any showdown with Hamas.

"Ever since Hamas won Palestinian legislative elections last January, President Bush and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel have done everything they could think of to isolate Hamas and far less than they might have to help Fatah's most important remaining leader, the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas," The New York Times said in its editorial on Friday.

"Seventeen months later, Hamas is that much stronger and Fatah is that much weaker. With the pretense of joint government now shattered, the Palestinian power struggle is certain to continue, even to intensify," it added.

...Alvaro de Soto , the outgoing UN Mideast peace envoy, said on Wednesday that the unquestioning subservience of the UN and the international community to the US and Israeli interests had handicapped all efforts for peace in the Middle East and added insult to Palestinian injuries.

In his 53-page report, the seasoned diplomat regretted that the UN and the rest of the Mideast Quartet, Russia and the EU - have become a "side-show" and "pretty much a group of friends of the US ."

Source:
http://islamonline.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=12150

[sister herb]

"This video is the only document that can give us an idea from what happened in Gaza from May 11th to May 18th. It shows us how President Mahmoud Abbas’ armed forces liquidate disarmed, defenceless men for being sympathizers or members of the Hamas democratically elected government.

The sequence - where can be viewed the execution of a disarmed young Palestinian by these faithless, lawless forces acting under the command of the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas and his henchman Mohamed Dahlan, was filmed from a balcony. It took place in a street close to the headquarters of the security forces acting under Abbas’ command. El Saraya neighbourhood.

This film does not show us the entirety from what happened. Missing is the scene where the young Palestinian, summoned to leave his car, immediately forced to get on his knees, falls under the shootings. The sequence starts at the moment when the man collapses, soaked in his blood.

It can be viewed how the ambulance is arriving; it can be viewed how president Abbas’ armed forces, in black gear, masked, prevent the ambulance personnel from helping the young man. It can be heard how one of the armed men shouts at the ambulance personnel: "Let him die". Then, it can be viewed how the man, trying to get up, falls under the shootings, dying.

The name of this young Palestinian, executed by armed Palestinians ready to kill the Hamas people, is reproduced on the list of the article: Palestine: Summary executions. (1) No media in Palestine spoke about it. Except rare media related to the Hamas movement. The proof that they are under the control of the Fatah party, Abbas’ party; the party related to these forces that are ready to betray their people in order to grab power again with the Israeli and United States’ support, willing to liquidate the people who are supporting the democratically elected Hamas government.

Where are the so-called representatives of the Palestinian people at the U.N., or the European Union, who enjoy of total freedom to denounce the traitors that are throwing their people down to even more horror and hatred? Why are they not so interested in denouncing what is being organised against their people? Are they waiting for Mr. Abbas (2) to come out victorious of this coup d'etat planned and consented by Condoleezza Rice?"

http://palestinianpundit.blogspot.co...q=lucia+video+

[Plexus]

Salaam alaykum

In the Gaza Strip's Jab aliya refugee camp, Aref Suleiman was raised on Palestinian struggle against the Jewish state. Today he lies in an Israeli hospital bed, his body riddled with Palestinian bullets, his wounds tended daily by Israeli nurses.
For the 22-year-old Mr Suleiman, who was shot five times point blank by Hamas militants last month during a renewed bout of Palestinian infighting, this is not the Arab-Israeli conflict he learnt about as a child growing up in Gaza's desperate, rubbish-strewn alleys.

"Palestinians shoot me and Jews treat me," he laughs bitterly. "It was supposed to be different."

The Barzilai Hospital sits on a sandy hilltop above the Mediterranean Sea in the southern Israeli port city of Ashkelon. In recent months, five Palestinian rockets have landed in the grassy dunes that encircle it, just six miles from the Gaza Strip.

Barzilai, however, has become a rare bastion of civility in an increasingly hate-filled conflict and a unique meeting ground for two peoples who otherwise have little direct contact.

Wounded Palestinians who get permission from the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli army are allowed into Israel to seek medical treatment that is not available at Gaza's rudimentary clinics. Here, Israelis and Palestinians meet their erstwhile foe, in many cases for the first time in their lives.

Mr Suleiman, who was only 15 when the second intifada erupted in 2000, had never been to Israel or met an Israeli. Suleiman, a guard in the Palestinian security services who was a devoted follower of the late Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat.

As he flirts with the Israeli nurses who bring him lunch, check his wounds and blood pressure and empty his bed pan, Suleiman seems, at least for the time being, to have forgotten historical grievances.

"The Jews are like honey, like flowers," he says theatrically. "They wash me, clean me, and change my gown every day. Even in my home, my own family wouldn't change me every day."

"Here, everything is beseder," he adds, using the Hebrew word for "okay".

For the young Israeli nurses, most from nearby communities that live in constant fear of the Palestinian rocket fire, the cultural exchange flows both ways. The Palestinian patients they treat put a human face on the conflict. Nurse and patient can even find a shred of common cause now that the Islamist Hamas movement, which has killed dozens of Israelis in suicide bombings, is locked in a deadly power struggle with the more moderate Fatah movement.

Victims on both sides of the war's de facto frontline are treated side by side here. Five doors down from Mr Suleiman, Ludmilla Visiptzky, 60, awaits her third session of surgery to patch up the shrapnel wounds she suffered when a Palestinian Qassam rocket struck her home in mid-May.

[mariam.]

Salaam alaykum

this is just what zionists enemy wants. :phew

I wonder if there have even been fighting between Hamas and Fatah but fighting between Hamas and traitors whose make work for Israel. These traitors don´t only want to halt resistance against zionist enemy but also destroy Hamas and Fatah too, even then when some puppet leaders of Fatah are not valuable for they goals anymore.

But don´t take my words too serious because I am Hamas supporter. :statisfie

We can't disprove that Hamas makes NOW alot of errors but at the same time they are a militant group and a calling owner ... I am Hamas supporter too.

at least they are not a traitors.

[mariam.]

I think that devoted muslims should be very unhappy that Hamas win in Gaza. Why ? Because muslims here say that terrorism and attacking innocent is against islam and Quaran. So Hamas is un islamic movement, that acts against Quaran and islamic teaching.

NO it's not .. Hamas is an islamic movement, do you know why?

because of this:

Allah said in the holy quran what can be translated as:
"To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;

(They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, "Our Lord is Allah". Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will).

(They are) those who, if We establish them in the land, establish regular prayer and give Zakat, enjoin the right and forbid wrong: with Allah rests the end (and decision) of (all) affairs"(22:39-40-41)

and this:

"If two parties among the Believers fall into a fight, make ye peace between them: but if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of Allah; but if it complies then make peace between them with justice and be fair: for Allah loves those who are fair (and just).

The Believers are but a single Brotherhood: so make peace and reconciliation between your two (contending) brothers; and fear Allah, that ye may receive Mercy." (49:9-10)

at the same time We can't disprove that Hamas makes NOW alot of errors.

but,at least they are not a traitors .. as I said again and again before.

[Sinbad]

Is it just me or is this a reason for Palestine to get even smaller? Israel can take over Gaza forever now.

[nevesirth]

The truth is tht no matter how much we try to explain the resons for hamas actions, these pro israeli-americans here will never accept the truth and reality.they have been brainwashed by their government and media, so they see hamas as an enemy, a threat and a 'terrorist' group. so trying to explain to them jst causes unnecessary repitition, its hard to change a fixed prejudiced and biased mind.

[mariam.]

Is it just me or is this a reason for Palestine to get even smaller? Israel can take over Gaza forever now.

Oh, yea :cry:

[Trumble]

Is it just me or is this a reason for Palestine to get even smaller? Israel can take over Gaza forever now.

Other than the most extreme of Zionist nutters the Israelis don't WANT Gaza; they never have. With all due respect to any posters who may live there there is very little for the Israelis to want, and nothing they need. Their interest in Gaza is in its use as a base for what they consider terrorist acts against Israel. Should such acts permanently cease so will any Israeli interest in Gaza, if they don't neither will Israeli 'interest'.

The truth is tht no matter how much we try to explain the resons for hamas actions, these pro israeli-americans here will never accept the truth and reality.they have been brainwashed by their government and media, so they see hamas as an enemy, a threat and a 'terrorist' group. so trying to explain to them jst causes unnecessary repitition, its hard to change a fixed prejudiced and biased mind.

Whatever the 'reasons for Hamas actions", the consequences of these particular ones are likely to be disastrous for the people of Gaza. We can already see how the West is falling over itself to give support to the 'new', Hamas-free government, but unless something changes dramatically the considerable financial element of that support will now be seen only in the West Bank. There is a severe danger that, in the eyes of the world, the West Bank will now effectively now become 'Palestine', and Gaza will just be a tiny, desperate, spot on the map nobody cares about as long as Hamas refuse to recognise the obvious and accept the right of Israel to exist, and re-integrate. Assuming that, by that stage, those Palestinians in the West Bank will actually want them to re-integrate. That is the "truth and reality".

[Zman]

Is it just me or is this a reason for Palestine to get even smaller? Israel can take over Gaza forever now.

It probably can, but, It can't hold it. That's why Irsael now wants a "multinational force," to step in and help out, since it's many invasions of Gaza were unsuccessful.

Just like when Israel lost to Hizbullah, they demanded that an international force act as a buffer between them & Hizbullah.

Gaza's occupation is too costly for Israel:

1. Too much money spent on it.
2. Israeli soldiers die their.
3. Israel's military is now configuered for a policing action and not conventional warfare, (the last conventional war Israel participated in, was the 1973 war. All wars after that were counter-guerrilla and policing the Palestinian territories).

Yitzhak Rabin once said that he wished that the sea would swallow up, Gaza.

It's too much of a headache for them.

Israel is not good at fighting guerrilla warfare, and the Arabs have now discovered it's Achilles Heel...

[mariam.]

accept the right of Israel to exist

You ask Hamas to accept the right of Israel to exist?

where? In Palestaine? ..... give me ONE legitimate cause can make me accept this right that you talking about.

please read my reply number 34 before you answer me.
peace

[Hashim_507]

Hamas deserves respect and recognition, they have been elected by the palestinian people. Abbas is a puppet for the israel and u.s, he creates phony government that is not elected by the people. I dont recognise israel as statel and abbas phony government.

[Trumble]

You ask Hamas to accept the right of Israel to exist?

where? In Palestaine? ..... give me ONE legitimate cause can make me accept this right that you talking about.

Because the State of Israel is there, it's people are there, and they now have been there for sixty years. The chance to remove them came and went with successive military defeats. The 'right', as far as there is one, is one of occupation; like it or not every single state on the planet was established by the same 'right'.

You can argue legal niceties all you like, but the simple fact is that the State of Israel is there to stay. At some point it will be necessary to accept that fact, as both Fatah and most Arab governments have done. Only then can a prosperous future be forged for the Palestinian people; it is possible, but must be based on reality not fantasy.

[Zman]

You ask Hamas to accept the right of Israel to exist?

:sl:

Before Hamas can be expected to recognize Irsael's right to exist, Israel must recognize the Palestinian's right to exist.

It's a 2-way street...

[mariam.]

Because the State of Israel is there, it's people are there, and they now have been there for sixty years. The chance to remove them came and went with successive military defeats. The 'right', as far as there is one, is one of occupation; like it or not every single state on the planet was established by the same 'right'.

You can argue legal niceties all you like, but the simple fact is that the State of Israel is there to stay. At some point it will be necessary to accept that fact, as both Fatah and most Arab governments have done. Only then can a prosperous future be forged for the Palestinian people; it is possible, but must be based on reality not fantasy.

I can't agree with you,to me Fatah and these Arab governments that you intend are traitors.
you have to understand .. it's OUR rights, and we are senseful enough to know it.

Iam sorry your answer is straight-out.

[Cognescenti]

Because the State of Israel is there, it's people are there, and they now have been there for sixty years. The chance to remove them came and went with successive military defeats. The 'right', as far as there is one, is one of occupation; like it or not every single state on the planet was established by the same 'right'.

You can argue legal niceties all you like, but the simple fact is that the State of Israel is there to stay. At some point it will be necessary to accept that fact, as both Fatah and most Arab governments have done. Only then can a prosperous future be forged for the Palestinian people; it is possible, but must be based on reality not fantasy.

Darn good answer there, Trumble.

[Cognescenti]

:sl:

Before Hamas can be expected to recognize Irsael's right to exist, Israel must recognize the Palestinian's right to exist.

It's a 2-way street...

Isn't that already in the Oslo Accord or the Camp David Accord or the blah, blah, blah?

[Cognescenti]

The truth is tht no matter how much we try to explain the resons for hamas actions, these pro israeli-americans here will never accept the truth and reality.they have been brainwashed by their government and media, so they see hamas as an enemy, a threat and a 'terrorist' group. so trying to explain to them jst causes unnecessary repitition, its hard to change a fixed prejudiced and biased mind.

Somebody has been brainwashed. That is certain. Has the BBC brainwashed us? The BBC reporter that was kidnapped in Gaza consistently filed reports emapthetic to the Palestinians. What group of short-sighted idiots kidnapped him?

I can understand why Palestininians would be fed up with the ineptitude and corruption of the PA, but if Hamas wants to be accepted as a poltical party which desires peace then simply changing their charter would go a long way toward that purpose. It might also help their image a bit if they also stopped lobbing unguided rockets into civilian areas.

Of course, you will respond by telling me that Israel did <insert retributions X here> and that Hamas are freedom fighters. We have heard all that, but the inescapable reality is that Israel is not going to go away. There are two options...unending conflict where neither side can achieve full victory or movement toward accomodation and peace. Take your pick. I won't hold my breath.

[Cognescenti]

I can't agree with you,to me Fatah and these Arab governments that you intend are traitors.
you have to understand .. it's OUR rights, and we are senseful enough to know it.

Iam sorry your answer is straight-out.

They could be "traitors" of perhaps they have come to the pragmatic recognition that the elimination of the State of Israel by force is simply not possible.

[Sinbad]

Well I guess its time to make the Gaza strip white now?

My personal opinion about this, I dont care. Do you care wich tribe rules Liberia? Wich people will hold goverment in Uganda?
No you dont care at all? No opinion? Exactly, then why care about an EVEN SMALLER and less important desert strip that is the holy land?

[al-muslimah]

alhamdullilah!finally lets hope that they practice the shariah the right way and not turn out corrupt like fatah.god i hate that traitor mahmud abbas.he's such a munafiq.may allah guide him .

[Cognescenti]

Well I guess its time to make the Gaza strip white now?

My personal opinion about this, I dont care. Do you care wich tribe rules Liberia? Wich people will hold goverment in Uganda?
No you dont care at all? No opinion? Exactly, then why care about an EVEN SMALLER and less important desert strip that is the holy land?
[/IMG]

I know what you mean. It would seem Gaza needs to be a third color now. You think a two state solution was difficult? Now we need a 3 state solution.
I don't suppose the residents of Gaza would want to become Egyptian? :)

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

The US isolation of Gaza after Hamas's takeover of the impoverished strip, home to 1.5 million Palestinians, would have grave security and humanitarian consequences and backfire at the end of the day...

Led by the US , the West slapped economic siege on the Palestinians since Hamas was voted to power last year, greatly affecting livelihood in the Palestinian lands...

"What are we going to do with Gaza . Light it up on fire?" the diplomat told Reuters, requesting anonymity.

Aid groups have further expressed deep concerns at isolating the Gaza Strip, which is already hit by the worst humanitarian crisis in decades due to the west's boycott.

"The borders need to be open," John Ging, head of the UN agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA), told AFP.

"We cannot collectively punish 1.5 million people in the Gaza Strip. They are already living in miserable conditions."

Tiger In A Cage

I saw a tiger in a cage
His eyes glinting with rage
Something lacking in this page;
I sought the advice of a sage
Concisely said, no verbiage:
A natural law of old age
Captivity breeds outrage.

© Shahriar Shahriari
Vancouver, Canada
May 31, 1997

[north_malaysian]

But don´t take my words too serious because I am Hamas supporter. :statisfie

are you Palestinian?

[nocturne]

Its a pity that there is in-fighting, rather than them collectively opposing israel.

[thirdwatch512]

give west bank to fatah and gaza to hamas.. simple!

[north_malaysian]

give west bank to fatah and gaza to hamas.. simple!

and old city of Jerusalem to?:?

[thirdwatch512]

and old city of Jerusalem to?:?

nope, that belongs (and should be) to the Jews. i wouldn't oppose to it being controlled bythe UN.. but not to palestine.

the Jews should also get more power in hebron.. i mean come on man, if you think about it.. if the Christians went and took over mecca, you would be offended. why? because mecca is the muslim place. it's the most holy city to islam. well, for Judaism it is Jerusalem and Hebron. i know these places are sacred to muslims too, and that's fine.. but ultimetely, they belong to the Jews. if not, it should too be a UN buffer zone type thing where the JEws and muslims can live together, and there is no muslim interest military or Jewish interest military.

[Plexus]

The truth is tht no matter how much we try to explain the resons for hamas actions, these pro israeli-americans here will never accept the truth and reality.they have been brainwashed by their government and media, so they see hamas as an enemy, a threat and a 'terrorist' group. so trying to explain to them jst causes unnecessary repitition, its hard to change a fixed prejudiced and biased mind.

assalamu alaykum

I am not a 'pro israeli-americans' and don't put it past my government to tell me falsities.
Its said by many Muslims that non-believer’s are blind.

Well if I can get a post on here without it being deleted I’d like to get what I see out so that it can be made clear for me.

It’s not my intention to cause fitnah (dissention) or to caste Islam in a bad light but I can see already that my aims will have fingers hovering over the ‘trash it’ button. Why oh why cant contentious issues are discussed with out blasphemy charges being made, everyone insulted, wounded and flying of the handle.

In this forum the some one said the Palestinian struggle is political not religious yet ‘allahu akba’ is screamed every time someone is killed. I ask you, how can anyone not think that religion is at the bottom of it? This type of statement is so frustrating because you can’t understand why one would.

I know next to nothing of history and have never known a Jew personally but from what I understand they’ve been burned, bashed and beaten from the time of Jesus so I can’t help but feel for them and from what I understand we’re originally chased from Jerusalem by Muhammad (pbuh) so why not let them have isreal. Face it, they’ve turned the place into a benefit…. Oops here comes the trash bin…
Why do you not accept there is a strong religious reason that the Arabs cannot live peacefully and accept the benefits of such a people? Do you deny Muhammad (pbuh) made the Jews pigs and donkeys that they will never be accepted by Allah (saw) and that this is taught in the Maddrassa?

You say I maybe brainwashed, blind.
This is so frustrating for the non-believer (Australian, Sydney-born Sheik Feiz Mohamed, described non-Muslims as “Kaffir, the worst word that can ever be written … a sign of infidelity, disbelief, filth, a sign of dirt.”). Sheik Feiz has been in Lebanon in self exile ‘instilling in the young tender hearts of children the love of jihad’ (his words) where he still draws social security payments from the Australian government.
Please show me where I am blind because this is not comfortable for me.
I have a funny feeling people are running for the 'delete this button' right about now.

You will tell me this is not Islamic and he is wrong and yet this is a loud and constant message coming form the ummah by and large.
However, the established pattern has been for Muslim academics and commentators to greet controversy with silence. Why?
One reason is conformity (according to Bashir Goth, a Muslim journalist and writer: "As Muslims we may claim to possess all the good virtues in the world but we definitely lack one very important virtue - that of self-criticism - while the West is at least blessed with this virtue.")
There are some awkward questions that cannot be avoided indefinitely but I have no faith in you religious people to even allow my questions here as you are unable to question even yourselves less you weaken your faith. "O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith." (Surah 5:102-103)


After 9/11 I became interested in Islam (good you say, God works in mysterious ways) but it was the Jews and CIA did it for political reasons and if Bin Laden did do it then it was not Islam because Islam means peace!
Questioning further I learn that Islam actually means surrender. Surrender to Islam then there is peace. Isn’t that an important clarification to understand?
"Allah's Apostle said, ‘some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.'" Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali, one of the most famous and respected Muslim theologians, says: "Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." It’s called takiya.

Reading this guy’s testimony answered many of the inconsistent messages of Muslims.
No compulsion in religion comes from a story about the Quarysh where Muhammad (pbuh) said there should be no compulsion to leave Islam… that’s it. Everywhere else is compulsions to convert to Islam! Death penalty for someone who leaves it!

Some of you will now tell me that all these things you speak are true but these were things in time of war, apostasy was treason and traitors should be killed and it’s not halal to kill the innocent. Aren’t you practicing takiya or are you ignorant of the teachings of your own religion? Dar-alislam and Dar-alhab, house of peace and house of war.

Sincerely I ask, don’t you want an end to the killing then I ask you to question what is being said and done through the blinkered vision of Islam today. Question, did the West save the Muslims in Kosovo? Did the West go to the aid of Saudi Arabia at the Saudi’s request when Saddam Hussein invaded it after the oil fields? Didn’t Bin Laden get pissed off when the Saudi’s rejected his help and then become their enemy? Didn’t the West support Afghanistan against the Russian’s? Didn’t the USA invade Afghanistan because Bin Laden attacked America and the Taliban wouldn’t hand him over? Didn’t America invade Iraq because Saddam, trying to intimidate his Arab neighbors convince everyone that he had weapons of mass destruction?

Muslims want to live in peace? You have got to be kidding!! Again more Muslims have killed other Muslims in the last 100 years than the kaffirs have ever killed the Muslims. Pakistani soldiers of Allah butchered 3 million Bangladeshis in 1971. Why? Iran has killed how many of its own people to impose sharia? How many Muslims have been killed in Afghanistan by the Taliban because they were not Muslim enough? Who is killing and raping and enslaving in Sudan right now? Who has been killing Muslims in Algeria and in Yemen over the last 30 years? Why play the victim? Poor Muslims! It is the Muslims who kill other Muslims!! Why can't you be honest for a second? How many Muslims have the Israelis killed in the last sixty years? How many Muslims have the Palestinians killed? How many Muslims did Saddam kill? How many Muslims did Assad of Syria kill? Assad wiped out 20,000 in a single day when he leveled the town of Hama. Learn to count and see who has been killing the Muslims around the world. And all this killing is being done in the name of Allah (saw).

You say as a non-believer that I can never see the truth but please persevere with me because I do want to see and I have put a lot of work in this post so you can correct me.

Sure Hamas is enraged the the Jews are on what is considered Arab land but they want them dead for the love of Allah (saw).

[muthenna]

Plexus dont try to trick someone that you are a muslim ok, for ex. your stupid assertions give you up

Muslims want to live in peace? You have got to be kidding!! Again more Muslims have killed other Muslims in the last 100 years than the kaffirs have ever killed the Muslims. Pakistani soldiers of Allah butchered 3 million Bangladeshis in 1971. Why? Iran has killed how many of its own people to impose sharia?

Pakistani soldiers of Allah, hehehe; you make me laugh man, really. We as muslims have a principle in aqidah that is - to fight against a muslim is kufr- especially kufr (disbelief) when aiding the disbeliever against the muslim.
So these so called muslims who aid nonmulims against muslims, can go back to Allahs book and the tradition of his prophet for reform
As far so called Israel is concerned, its there 60 years, remember that crusaders seized Palestine for 100 years and after that we defeated them. Furthermore, there is the prophecy of Muhamed a.s. about the defeat of the jews by the hands of muslims; the problem with fatah and the arabs who fought against so called Israel was that they were nonpractising muslims, secular (democrats and communists) and not moderate. The ones who will liberate Palestine, all of it from coast to coast, are described in the quran by Allah as " our servants" and this tittle is not given, for a so called secular muslim.
The Most High said : 138. To the hypocrites give the glad tidings that there is for them a grievous penalty;-
139. Those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honor they seek among them? Nay,- All honor is with Allah.
(Tawbah)
The Most High Said: 51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. (Nisa)
the real friends are our muslim brothers not some pagans or crusaders, The Most High said:
55. Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
Prophet Muhamed a.s. said:
“There will never cease to be a group from my Ummah, fighting upon the truth victorious until the Day of Judgement... and then Isa bin Maryam a.s. will come and their amir will say: Come and lead us in the prayer!, he shall say: No, you are amirs over each other as an honor from Allah to this Ummah(nation)"-Muslim
“There will never cease to be a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah The Mighty and Sublime, overpowering their enemies. They will not be harmed by those that oppose them until the Hour comesupon them and they are upon that"-Muslim
and from Salamah ibn Nufail al- who said:
" I was sitting with the Messenger of Allah a.s. when a man said: "Oh Messenger of Allah! The people have held on to the horses and laid down their weapons and said:'there is no Jihad for the war has laid down its burdens.' So the Messenger of Allah a.s. turned his face away and said:'they have lied. Now the time for fighting has come. There will never cease to be a group from my Ummah that fights upon the truth. Allah will deviate the hearts of some by way of them, and provide for them from them until the establishment of the hour and until the promise of Allah comes. Good shall remain in the manes of horses until the Day of Judgement. It has been revealed to me that I will die and not remain and that you all will follow up after me, aome striking the necks of others, and the base of the abode of the believers is in Sham(Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, and part of Iraq)." -Sahih narrated by Nesai

[KAding]

Plexus dont try to trick someone that you are a muslim ok, for ex. your stupid assertions give you up
Pakistani soldiers of Allah, hehehe; you make me laugh man, really. We as muslims have a principle in aqidah that is - to fight against a muslim is kufr- especially kufr (disbelief) when aiding the disbeliever against the muslim.
So these so called muslims who aid nonmulims against muslims, can go back to Allahs book and the tradition of his prophet for reform

Who is authorized to rule that a Muslim is really an apostate or munafiq? Lets take someone like President Karzai or Prime-minister Alawi. I assume you believe it is okay to fight (and kill) them since they are aiding the kafirs? Yet, they claim they are Muslims, do you have the authority to judge otherwise? If you don't, who has? Karzai and Alawi are obvious cases, but what about King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia? President Mubarak? Boutaflika in Algeria? There are muhajedeen in all these countries fighting wars against these leaders and governments in name of Islam. If fighting against Muslims is kufr, either these Muhajedeen are kufr or the these leaders are not really Muslims. I assume it is the latter, but based on who's authority are they declared to be apostates/munafiq?

It is all so confusing in Islam. You have all these rules, yet it is so unclear to me who has authority to judge and act on them as long as there is no caliphate, no Islamic courts or somekind of institution which seeks consensus rulings from scholars. In other words, to what extend are individual Muslims and private groups allowed to take the law in their own hands?

[Sami Zaatari]

Who is authorized to rule that a Muslim is really an apostate or munafiq? Lets take someone like President Karzai or Prime-minister Alawi. I assume you believe it is okay to fight (and kill) them since they are aiding the kafirs? Yet, they claim they are Muslims, do you have the authority to judge otherwise? If you don't, who has? Karzai and Alawi are obvious cases, but what about King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia? President Mubarak? Boutaflika in Algeria? There are muhajedeen in all these countries fighting wars against these leaders and governments in name of Islam. If fighting against Muslims is kufr, either these Muhajedeen are kufr or the these leaders are not really Muslims. I assume it is the latter, but based on who's authority are they declared to be apostates/munafiq?

It is all so confusing in Islam. You have all these rules, yet it is so unclear to me who has authority to judge and act on them as long as there is no caliphate, no Islamic courts or somekind of institution which seeks consensus rulings from scholars. In other words, to what extend are individual Muslims and private groups allowed to take the law in their own hands?

actually there is nothing confusing at all. any muslim who sides and makes alliances with non muslims becomes an apostate, especially when they make an alliance with hostile non muslims. hence there is no confusion, and this is from the highest authority, Allah himself states this in the Quran, he who makes an alliance with the non muslims becomes one of them. and Allah also tells us he who makes an alliance with non muslims to fight Muslims is also an apostate. hence there is nothing confusing at all. and this also happens to be a consencus among the top islamic scholars. :)

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

FEATURE-After Gaza, Some Question Who Was Overthrowing Whom
By Adam Entous
17 Jun 2007
13:28:44
AlertNet

JERUSALEM, June 17 (Reuters) - The U.S. government began to lay the ground for President Mahmoud Abbas to dismiss the Hamas-led Palestinian government at least a year before the Islamist group's violent takeover of the Gaza Strip last week.

Western, Israeli and Palestinian official sources said over the weekend that, far from being an ad hoc response to Hamas's offensive, Abbas's declaration of a state of emergency and his replacement of a Hamas prime minister with Western favourite Salam Fayyad marked the culmination of months of backroom deliberations, planning and U.S. prodding.

In the end, pressure on Abbas to act against Hamas was as great -- if not greater -- from within his own Fatah faction as from Washington, which is seeking to play down its own role.

Only the triggering event, resulting in total Hamas control of the Gaza Strip, can be said to have come as a nasty surprise to the Americans.

It left in tatters plans by U.S. and Arab allies to build up Abbas's own forces in Gaza against Hamas.

Many Western officials and analysts see the offensive as a pre-emptive strike by Hamas before Washington could build up Fatah.

Hamas says it made its move against a U.S.-backed "coup".

"(Hamas leaders) knew what was going on," one senior Western diplomat said.

"They knew Abbas was going to try to establish his authority. They read it in the paper like everyone else."

Exactly who was overthrowing whom is a fair question, said International Crisis Group analyst Mouin Rabbani.

"Hamas would argue they were merely defending their election victory whereas Abbas would claim he's defending the legitimacy of Palestinian institutions," he said.

"You had powerful elements within Hamas who thought time was against them."

Edward Abington, Abbas's long-time adviser and Washington lobbyist, said the Bush administration made its intentions known to the president soon after Hamas was elected in early 2006.

Abbas was told "Hamas is an illegitimate organisation and that they are doing everything they can to force it out of power".

Abington recounted a meeting as long ago as July last year at which:

"(Abbas) said to me that the Americans were urging him to kick out the government, to form an emergency government".

"He refused to do it because it would lead to civil war.

"(Abbas) did not want to get into a confrontation," said Abington.

But in the end, he said, "it was forced on him."

Western officials said Abbas was able to move swiftly this week to form a new government because much of the advance work had already been done.

In one closed-door briefing with U.S. lawmakers earlier this year, a senior U.S. official said Abbas could rule by decree for 6-12 months before elections are held.

On Sunday, faced with a constitutional article demanding any new government be approved by parliament, where Hamas has a majority, Abbas simply issued a decree scrapping that provision.

...Some Western and Palestinian officials argue Washington fanned the flames as soon as Hamas and Fatah formed a short-lived "unity" government in March.

U.S. officials pushed Abbas into giving Hamas's nemesis, Mohammad Dahlan, control over security and then pushed him to deploy Fatah forces in Gaza.

Abington, a former U.S. Consul General in Jerusalem, said: "For us to be seen so clearly backing one armed Palestinian military against another is a very dangerous proposition, and in the case of Gaza, has failed totally."

Source:
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L17443574.htm

[mariam.]

nope, that belongs (and should be) to the Jews. i wouldn't oppose to it being controlled bythe UN.. but not to palestine.

the Jews should also get more power in hebron.. i mean come on man, if you think about it.. if the Christians went and took over mecca, you would be offended. why? because mecca is the muslim place. it's the most holy city to islam. well, for Judaism it is Jerusalem and Hebron. i know these places are sacred to muslims too, and that's fine.. but ultimetely, they belong to the Jews. if not, it should too be a UN buffer zone type thing where the JEws and muslims can live together, and there is no muslim interest military or Jewish interest military.

that belongs (and should be) to Arabs.

this Land consider as a HOLY LAND to the moslems, Christians and jews .. So, simply you can't said that: Jerusalem belongs to One of them.

[Sinbad]

That land belongs to evereybody, evereyone in history have had that land.

I hate the holy land it takes up all the news. Its an unimportant desert stripe. The size of a big city, including suburbs. Its nothing.

[Agnostic]

that belongs (and should be) to Arabs.

this Land consider as a HOLY LAND to the moslems, Christians and jews .. So, simply you can't said that: Jerusalem belongs to One of them.

Isn't that what you just said though ? :confused:

[mariam.]

Isn't that what you just said though ? :confused:

actually I don't understand what you mean :rollseyes

[Agnostic]

Well you said "that belongs (and should be) to Arabs."
And then said "So, simply you can't said that: Jerusalem belongs to One of them."

Isn't that a contradiction?
Perhaps I misunderstood.

[mariam.]

Well you said "that belongs (and should be) to Arabs."
And then said "So, simply you can't said that: Jerusalem belongs to One of them."

Isn't that a contradiction?
Perhaps I misunderstood.

yea .. I think so

do you think that All Arabs are moslems?
do you know that the number of non-Arabic moslems is more than Arabic moslems, you should regard this point.
there is Arabic Christians and Arabic jews as well as moslems.

peace :)

[mariam.]

Isn't that already in the Oslo Accord or the Camp David Accord or the blah, blah, blah?

and blah, blah, blah ... !!

these accords is of no avail .. only ink onto paper.

[KAding]

actually there is nothing confusing at all. any muslim who sides and makes alliances with non muslims becomes an apostate, especially when they make an alliance with hostile non muslims. hence there is no confusion, and this is from the highest authority, Allah himself states this in the Quran, he who makes an alliance with the non muslims becomes one of them. and Allah also tells us he who makes an alliance with non muslims to fight Muslims is also an apostate. hence there is nothing confusing at all. and this also happens to be a consencus among the top islamic scholars. :)

I still find it confusing though, sorry :-[. So can any individual make his own decision on what a 'hostine non-Muslim' is and when something is an 'alliance'. Is the Saudi government allied with the US? What about Egyptian government? Indonesia? Morocco?

It sounds like you saying you (any Muslim really) are personally authorized to make this call and start their own jihad? I'm a bit skeptical about that. Surely they need scholars to declare it for them? If so, how many scholars? How do you define 'top scholars' anyway? Is there somekind of formal or informal ranking?

So many questions :statisfie.

[Plexus]

Plexus dont try to trick someone that you are a muslim ok, for ex. your stupid assertions give you up
Pakistani soldiers of Allah, hehehe; you make me laugh man, really. We as muslims have a principle in aqidah that is - to fight against a muslim is kufr- especially kufr (disbelief) when aiding the disbeliever against the muslim.
So these so called muslims who aid nonmulims against muslims, can go back to Allahs book and the tradition of his prophet for reform
As far so called Israel is concerned, its there 60 years, remember that crusaders seized Palestine for 100 years and after that we defeated them. Furthermore, there is the prophecy of Muhamed a.s. about the defeat of the jews by the hands of muslims; the problem with fatah and the arabs who fought against so called Israel was that they were nonpractising muslims, secular (democrats and communists) and not moderate. The ones who will liberate Palestine, all of it from coast to coast, are described in the quran by Allah as " our servants" and this tittle is not given, for a so called secular muslim.
The Most High said : 138. To the hypocrites give the glad tidings that there is for them a grievous penalty;-
139. Those who take for friends unbelievers rather than believers: is it honor they seek among them? Nay,- All honor is with Allah.
(Tawbah)
The Most High Said: 51. O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. (Nisa)
the real friends are our muslim brothers not some pagans or crusaders, The Most High said:
55. Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).
Prophet Muhamed a.s. said:
“There will never cease to be a group from my Ummah, fighting upon the truth victorious until the Day of Judgement... and then Isa bin Maryam a.s. will come and their amir will say: Come and lead us in the prayer!, he shall say: No, you are amirs over each other as an honor from Allah to this Ummah(nation)"-Muslim
“There will never cease to be a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah The Mighty and Sublime, overpowering their enemies. They will not be harmed by those that oppose them until the Hour comesupon them and they are upon that"-Muslim
and from Salamah ibn Nufail al- who said:
" I was sitting with the Messenger of Allah a.s. when a man said: "Oh Messenger of Allah! The people have held on to the horses and laid down their weapons and said:'there is no Jihad for the war has laid down its burdens.' So the Messenger of Allah a.s. turned his face away and said:'they have lied. Now the time for fighting has come. There will never cease to be a group from my Ummah that fights upon the truth. Allah will deviate the hearts of some by way of them, and provide for them from them until the establishment of the hour and until the promise of Allah comes. Good shall remain in the manes of horses until the Day of Judgement. It has been revealed to me that I will die and not remain and that you all will follow up after me, aome striking the necks of others, and the base of the abode of the believers is in Sham(Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, and part of Iraq)." -Sahih narrated by Nesai

assalamu alaykum

I use the Muslin way of greeting and acknowledging Allah and his prophet as a mark of respect. As for me tricking you, what does it matter what or who I am. We are in an internet forum, I could be Donald Duck in a tutu for all you know it matters not. You can only assess the value of what I write.
My point is that Hamas is a set back to peace. Politically, if it were just people power humanity would prevail and peace is possible. I read that most Palestinians would prefer Israel back because things were better then than now. Hamas are jihadi’s, Allah’s slaves as you put it and they are implacably bent on the extinction of the Israeli’s. No peace.
[/B]"Oh Messenger of Allah! The people have held on to the horses and laid down their weapons and said:'there is no Jihad for the war has laid down its burdens.' So the Messenger of Allah a.s. turned his face away and said:'they have lied. Now the time for fighting has come. There will never cease to be a group from my Ummah that fights upon the truth."[/B] This is a declaration of ceaseless war on the infidel (non-believers) until the world is for Allah.
This is how the jihadi's see it.

Why do you laugh at my examples of Muslims killing Muslims and refute none of them?

Making alliances with non-muslims is kafr then who are the people in Kosovo the great Satan protected from the Serbs? What about the support the US gave the Taliban in Afghanistan against the Russians? Then the Northern Alliance and US vs. the Taliban. ****te vs. Sunni in Iraq. US arming Sunni’s in Iraq to fight al-Qaeda. Hamas and Fatah are both Sunni! Bin Laden himself was trained by the CIA!
I’m not confused, I think you are.

actually there is nothing confusing at all. any muslim who sides and makes alliances with non muslims becomes an apostate, especially when they make an alliance with hostile non muslims. hence there is no confusion, and this is from the highest authority, Allah himself states this in the Quran, he who makes an alliance with the non muslims becomes one of them. and Allah also tells us he who makes an alliance with non muslims to fight Muslims is also an apostate. hence there is nothing confusing at all. and this also happens to be a consencus among the top islamic scholars[/B]

To take this to it’s logical conclusion then Muslims shouldn’t sell their oil to the Kaffir. What would you do with it, leave it in the ground? You can’t put it in a camel. At least it will stop you buying gun’s to fight in Allah’s cause. The oil money should go to benefit your people.

I maintain the problem's in Palestine is a religious one that neither begins nor ends there. It's a global jihad. This is the day of the internet, you can't stop it being revealed by killing people anymore!

The problem lies in Muslims having no tolerance for another’s belief differing from their own even among themselves. You quote Hadith and sura correctly and it’s clear and the terrorists understand it clearly what is not clear is who is a real Muslim.

Hamas' problems could get much worse and very soon. Dor-Aon, an Israeli petroleum company that has been the main supplier of gasoline and other fuel products to Gaza since soon after the establishment of the authority in the 1990s, is cutting off its fuel supplies because it has not been paid an outstanding $45 million debt. Gaza without fuel would send it back to pre-industrial times. And the Israeli siege of Gaza is almost absolute, except for a few hours a day when trucks carrying 'humanitarian aid' is allowed into the strip. Israel, after all, says it does not want a 'humanitarian crisis' in the territory, where already a third of the population is said to live on less than $2 a day because there's no work, for lack of investment. The PA has not paid March salaries, and with the U.S. cutting off its $300 million in aid a year, and the EU cutting off its $600 million, while Israel withholds the $50 million a month it collects in taxes from Palestinians and is supposed to deliver to the PA every month and Arab states not following through on their promises of aid, the PA government is being reduced to relying on its rhetoric and the high level of social solidarity among Palestinians. Israel basically trying to 'Arafatize' Hamas -- isolate it internationally s that it is rendered 'irrelevant' to justify a new round of unilateral moves meant to define Israel's permanent borders -- and to win international support for those borders.

I do appreciate you allowing me to comment here. Questioning Islam by you or me, confiding with a kaffir like me is haram isn't it.

[guyabano]

The problem lies in Muslims having no tolerance for another’s belief differing from their own even among themselves.

Sad to say, but true! Some muslims here in the forum could be perfect Bushies ! 'Or you are with me, or you are against me!' There is nothing in between !

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

Palestine Is Not For Sale

Palestinians Won’t Accept A Vichy Government

By Khalid Amayreh
06/18/07
InformationClearingHouse

Occupied Jerusalem, 17 June 2007 -- -The vast bulk of Palestinians, at home and in the Diaspora, will not accept a quisling government in Ramallah that might be at Israel’s beck and call. This is precisely what the Bush administration and Israel expect the new government, headed by Salam Fayyad, to be.

Of course, it is entirely up to Fayyad and his cabinet to prove the falseness of Israeli bedding and American expectations.

Unfortunately, the new government seems to offer a little promise for a better tomorrow for the thoroughly starved, exhausted and tormented Palestinians.

Indeed, the deafening silence by Abbas and Fayyad, et al, in the face of widespread thuggish behavior by well-known armed hooligans who have been vandalizing and burning down buildings, institutions and businesses throughout the West Bank, is very telling.

True, the government is still a few hours’ old. However, the absence of even a verbal condemnation of the orgy of terror and vandalism against suspected Hamas supporters and their families and businesses doesn’t augur well for the future.

Predictably, the US and Israel have been heaping wholesome praise on the Fayyad government.

Moreover, the US and Israel have already signaled their enthusiastic willingness to lift all financial sanctions against the occupied West Bank, apparently to strengthen the Dahlan-Abbas camp against other Palestinians who refuse to be bribed or intimidated into giving in to Israeli insolence and arrogance of power.

The Fayyad Government may be temporarily pleased by the American and Israeli support.

However, it should understand that American and Israeli backing is like a poisoned chalice.

Experience proved that in the Middle East any government or faction or organization backed by the US will be reviled by the masses.

This is especially true in the occupied Palestinian territories where collaboration with Israel, which controls America’s politics and policies, is seen as ultimate treason.

The Palestinian masses know very well what the US symbolizes for them, their children and their enduring cause.

It symbolizes oppression in its ugliest forms.

It symbolizes mass murder, land theft, dispossession, deprivation and ultimate mendacity and hypocrisy.

America is the enabler, sustainer and justifier of 40 years of Israeli Nazism whose ultimate goal is the obliteration of Palestinians as a nation, by arrogating their homeland for them and making their future as precarious as possible.

In short, America to the Palestinians is very much like what Nazi Germany was to the Jews.

Hence, any government agreeing to throw itself into the American lap will lose its legitimacy if not its very existence.

This is probably the reason why Palestinians in the Gaza Strip didn’t fight for Muhammed Dahlan and his men.

During the past 18 months, the US, through people like Keith Dayton, gave us a lot of money and weapons to kill each other in the service of Israel, which doesn’t really distinguish between this or that Palestinian group, as long as they reject the occupation and insist on freedom.

That happened while the US and Israel (and also the hypocritical EU governments) made sure to starve and impoverish ordinary Palestinians in the hope that they would revolt against Hamas and abandon Palestinian aspirations, in return for bread and American money.

Yes, America gave us weapons to kill each other, while making sure to starve and torment us, as if the Nazis of our time wanted us to kill and be killed hungry.

These are not allegations or unsubstantiated claims but well-known facts.

US officials and media have been openly speaking about igniting civil war in Gaza and the West Bank.

Elliot Abrams, who is answerable to AIPAC, even boasted about his success in setting Palestinians against each other.

Unfortunately, President Abbas never bothered to tell the Palestinian people why and for what purpose he was amassing all these American-supplied weapons?

Was it because he wanted to fight the Israeli occupation?

Or was it to decapitate Hamas in one full swoop when the opportunity arose? And if the latter was the reason, then can we say that Hamas was justified in its preemptive action in Gaza?

Honest Palestinians knew from the very inception what was going on. The writing was on the wall for a long time, and the national apostasy on the part of certain Palestinian leaders was getting starker and starker.

There is no doubt that any close identification of the new government with the Israeli occupier will invite its demise, and that could happen sooner rather than later.

More to the point, it is wrong and misleading to assume that the Fatah movement in its entirety would back a government that says “yes” to Israel and the US.

A government as such would be a treacherous government, a quisling entity.
Therefore, the new government should watch its steps very carefully and refrain from reaching any agreement with the Zionist regime that could compromise our national rights.

This is not a matter of Fatah vs. Hamas.

This is a matter of Palestine and Palestine is not for sale.

Source:
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle17900.htm

[Joe98]

....I am Hamas supporter. :statisfie

Please advise why it is that Hamas does not allow Christians to worship in areas controlled by Hamas?

Why does Hamas destroy bibles and hurt christians???

-

[guyabano]

...I am Hamas Supporter

I would gladly like to know how you're going to explain, that even a lot of muslims ran away from the Hamas???

[Keltoi]

Abbas described Hamas as "murderous terrorists" yesterday, which I'm sure is a shared view by many Palestinians after last week.

[mariam.]

Please advise why it is that Hamas does not allow Christians to worship in areas controlled by Hamas?

Why does Hamas destroy bibles and hurt christians???

-

are you sure?

please .. can you post me the source that you bring your info from.

[Muslimah-Seeker]

Insha'llah there will come a time when we unite as a Ummah and see that together we are stronger, and as Muslims we should all work together to assure that our Brothers and Sisters are not sufferring.

[mariam.]

Abbas described Hamas as "murderous terrorists" yesterday, which I'm sure is a shared view by many Palestinians after last week.

I don't agree with you .. I think that Hamas has more popularity than Fatah In the islamic world .. and palestine as well.

at least with Hamas we can dream about the Ending of this unjust occupation.

peace :statisfie

[mariam.]

Insha'llah there will come a time when we unite as a Ummah and see that together we are stronger, and as Muslims we should all work together to assure that our Brothers and Sisters are not sufferring.

Ameen

[guyabano]

are you sure?

please .. can you post me the source that you bring your info from.

Oh, good that you ask. I made a post about this, but I'm pretty sure, it will not be approved, as most of the time:

But look here by yourself !

[mariam.]

Oh, good that you ask. I made a post about this, but I'm pretty sure, it will not be approved, as most of the time:

But look here by yourself !

I want to ask you .. is it an Israeli site?

[MTAFFI]

I don't agree with you .. I think that Hamas has more popularity than Fatah In the islamic world .. and palestine as well.

at least with Hamas we can dream about the Ending of this unjust occupation.

peace :statisfie

Hamas will only make it worse and eventually will lose the war and its land to israel. You should know the more they fight the less land they have and no one is going to stop israel when people are anonymously launching rockets at civilian targets

[Keltoi]

I don't agree with you .. I think that Hamas has more popularity than Fatah In the islamic world .. and palestine as well.

at least with Hamas we can dream about the Ending of this unjust occupation.

peace :statisfie

What a pipe dream. Actually you are correct, you can "dream" of Hamas ending this occupation. While you are dreaming the Israelis will respond to the actions of Hamas and kill more Palestinians, while the Palestinians aren't busy killing themselves. The Palestinian people will become even more poor and desperate, while you dream and Hamas stays "popular" to the Islamic world.

[Hashim_507]

Abbas is a big traitor to the palestinians; he now forms phony government. What did he make difference except earn big check from zionist for himself. I know he did not earn alot of money since hamas took over and were sanction by zionist supporters. Look at him now smiling next to olmert and its zionist leaders. Abbas is not the right leader for palestinians, he shows sympathy to the zionist. Gaza is being invaded by zionist war machines; tanks are already rolling in gaza while abbas is shaking hands with olmert.

[wilberhum]

Abbas is a big traitor to the palestinians; he now forms phony government. What did he make difference except earn big check from zionist for himself. I know he did not earn alot of money since hamas took over and were sanction by zionist supporters. Look at him now smiling next to olmert and its zionist leaders. Abbas is not the right leader for palestinians, he shows sympathy to the zionist. Gaza is being invaded by zionist war machines; tanks are already rolling in gaza while abbas is shaking hands with olmert.

Sounds like a totally bias opinion based on zero facts. :-\

[Sinbad]

This thread still hasnt died?

[Hashim_507]

Sounds like a totally bias opinion based on zero facts. :-\

What do you expect me to say"God bless Israel"? The fact is Abbas political compaign to resist uccupation have little effect. Palestinians and muslims goal is to free palestine from zionist uccupation. On his first day he appointed his illegal government; gaza was already being bombarded. Its actual fact Abbas is favoring Israel more than his own people suffering. This not bias view; its already taking effect especially Abbas ruling

[wilberhum]

What do you expect me to say"God bless Israel"? The fact is Abbas political compaign to resist uccupation have little effect. Palestinians and muslims goal is to free palestine from zionist uccupation. On his first day he appointed his illegal government; gaza was already being bombarded. Its actual fact Abbas is favoring Israel more than his own people suffering. This not bias view; its already taking effect especially Abbas ruling

How about an honest statement?
Abbas's lack of sucess does not mean he is an agent of Israel.
Lies and distortions, how sad.
It has been bad for 6o years. Abbas didn't start it.
The fact that many Palestinians do not want peace as a primary objective has more to do with causing the failure than Abbas.
You can't solve problems if you have no clue to what caused them.

[Zman]

Please advise why it is that Hamas does not allow Christians to worship in areas controlled by Hamas?

Why does Hamas destroy bibles and hurt christians???-

Are you even aware that "Christians" ran on the Hamas ticket during the last Parliamentary elections?

Before accusing Hamas of destroying bibles and hurting Christians, why don't you first familiarize yourself with Palestinian Christain grievances against that Apartheid state, and what it did to Christian sites since it's inception in 1948.

If you are going to make accusations against alleged acts that Hamas committed, kindly provide the proof to back it up...

[Plexus]

Salam Zman

responding to the article from 'informationclearinghouse'

“…The vast bulk of Palestinians, at home and in the Diaspora, will not accept a quisling government in Ramallah that might be at Israel’s beck and call.”

You would have thought America had learned a lesson in Afghanistan. After the Russian’s were repelled Bin Laden turned his attentions to the West and here they go again in Palestine.
Fatah was never going to at the beck and call of the occupiers as the Vichy were to the Germans in France and the bulk of the Palestinian people don’t believe that to be the case. They do believe Fatah are corrupt and are interested in power and money!
The best Israel and America would have got is another Barbary Coast type of an affair where America paid the Muslim pirates to stop attacking ships and enslaving the sailors and as it never stopped the Muslim’s piracy (they just kept asking high and higher ransoms) neither was Fatah going to stop attacking Israel.

‘Yes, America gave us weapons to kill each other, while making sure to starve and torment us, as if the Nazis of our time wanted us to kill and be killed hungry.

These are not allegations or unsubstantiated claims but well-known facts.’

Do you see the bias?
Israel supplied Fatah in the desperate hope (futile) that with them in power they might get some peace.
Why should Israel supply fuel and money and aid to Gaza with constant Kassem rocket attacks? Actually they are allowing aid in avoid ‘humanitarian crisis’ so I’ve read.

"O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust." Quran 5:51

Yes the West does give arms to Muslim’s to kill other Muslims and it’s a stupid thing to do. The idiots are going to supply arms to the Sunni’s in Iraq to fight al-Qaeda, can you fathom that? They do not understand Islam. Muslim’s will never make a lasting alliance with infidels. Every Westerner should be made to read the Qu’ran, Hadith and Sunnah.

‘US officials and media have been openly speaking about igniting civil war in Gaza and the West Bank.

Elliot Abrams, who is answerable to AIPAC, even boasted about his success in setting Palestinians against each other.’

Having your enemies fight between themselves is seen as an advantage.

‘This is not a matter of Fatah vs. Hamas.

This is a matter of Palestine and Palestine is not for sale.’

Imagine, hypothetically, Israeli’s have been driven into the sea or killed. The Sunni look up only to see the Iranian Shiite’s intolerant eyes. Were right back to the Bronze Age after Muhammad’s death but instead of swords we are in the nuclear age.

You will never find a pro-western article on ‘http://www.informationclearinghouse’.
Not that there is nothing of value to be got from the unaccountable authors.
Muslim’s find an unlikely kefir ally, in the politically left leaning contributors who also have a problem with Western governments.
The left wingers are correct, the problem’s facing humanity are global economic powers, the multinational corporations which have no allegiance to any country and here we are being distracted by having to deal with a religion who wants to conquer, enslave, subjucate and make dimmni or kill us.

Islam seeks nothing less than a total global domination. The word Islam literally means “submission” or “surrender”, the kind that comes by force or fraud. Its scripture must be taken literally; its provisions are intended to dominate every waking moment in the life of a believer. There is no room for being a half-hearted Muslim and no toleration of watering down its invocations.

[north_malaysian]

nope, that belongs (and should be) to the Jews. i wouldn't oppose to it being controlled bythe UN.. but not to palestine.

Old City of Jerusalem belongs to Palestinians. Why? Currently most of the population are Palestinians. If Jews want to pray on the Western Walls they are welcomed... but they cant live in the Muslim, Armenian and Christian quarters.

the Jews should also get more power in hebron..

The Jews should either became Palestinian citizens or Israelis living within Palestinian territories. Hebron belongs to Palestinians.

if the Christians went and took over mecca, you would be offended. why? because mecca is the muslim place. it's the most holy city to islam. well, for Judaism it is Jerusalem and Hebron. i know these places are sacred to muslims too, and that's fine.. but ultimetely, they belong to the Jews.

If the Christians took over Mecca, first of all, the Christian communities in Muslim nations would be extinct.... then there would be zillions of suicide bombings in Mecca.

But when Muslims came to Jerusalem... why there are no Jews killing Muslims or stage a protest?

The Answer:
* We saved them from Christians
* We rebuild a holy place on Table Mount (before Muslims came, Temple Mount was a dumpsite)

After we rebuild a house of worship (with no idols in it...and make it sacred), established special quarters from Christians, Jews, Armenians and Muslims. Give them peace, give them good administration..... and no Jews protesting Muslims keeping Jerusalem for hundreds of yours...

Suddenly, after they managed to get support from the USA and Europe... they just came to Palestinian houses and chased them away like dogs.

Jews should realise that they have lost Israel when God decides to expel them from Israel.

Imagine, your ancestors came to settle in a place for hundred of years with no interruptions, established a business/farm, having lots of passionate of the place you're living..... then suddenly someones claimed (with no proper documentations like title deeds etc) and forced you to get out... Is it Justice?

It's not Palestinians that expelled the Jews.... but why they have to pay for the crimes they never did.

Seriously, Israelis might have a country right now... but they have Palestinians bloods on their hand..... and they are proud of it?imsad

[guyabano]

I want to ask you .. is it an Israeli site?

you asked for facts, I gave you some ! Still not contented?

Ermm, the same text was on many other websites, I just grab the first I got because I'm in office !

Anyway, I didn't expect any other answer than the 'This is a consiracy' classical response !

[Trumble]

Imagine, your ancestors came to settle in a place for hundred of years with no interruptions, established a business/farm, having lots of passionate of the place you're living..... then suddenly someones claimed (with no proper documentations like title deeds etc) and forced you to get out... Is it Justice?

Other than the "hundreds of years" (we are now in the second half of the first) isn't that exactly what any native born Jewish Israeli would think? Why should people born outside Israel have a claim to the the farm they were born in, or business they built up from scratch?

It's too long now, the Israelis aren't going anywhere. Hamas fantasies to the contrary will cause only more pain and suffereing to Palestinian and Israeli alike.

[mariam.]

Hamas will only make it worse and eventually will lose the war and its land to israel. You should know the more they fight the less land they have and no one is going to stop israel when people are anonymously launching rockets at civilian targets

Better or worse .. it's our problem not yours.

So, don't imagine that we are from those who kneel to Israeli killer .. Like Abbas this big traitor .. who sell his land for Money and seat.

we are a honorable people .. we can't sell our Land and Lose our dignity for some food.

peace .. I hope you understand me

[mariam.]

you asked for facts, I gave you some ! Still not contented?

Ermm, the same text was on many other websites, I just grab the first I got because I'm in office !

Anyway, I didn't expect any other answer than the 'This is a consiracy' classical response !

As a moslem .. I should be a honest person.

So, what I want to said is: If they really do these deeds .. then I can't disprove that they makes alot of errors in the name of islam .. and Iam the first one who resistant them doings .. but Iam not sure yet.

God knows best.

[Amadeus85]

The Jews should either became Palestinian citizens or Israelis living within Palestinian territories. Hebron belongs to Palestinians.



If the Christians took over Mecca, first of all, the Christian communities in Muslim nations would be extinct.... then there would be zillions of suicide bombings in Mecca.

But when Muslims came to Jerusalem... why there are no Jews killing Muslims or stage a protest?

The Answer:
* We saved them from Christians
* We rebuild a holy place on Table Mount (before Muslims came, Temple Mount was a dumpsite)

After we rebuild a house of worship (with no idols in it...and make it sacred), established special quarters from Christians, Jews, Armenians and Muslims. Give them peace, give them good administration..... and no Jews protesting Muslims keeping Jerusalem for hundreds of yours...

Suddenly, after they managed to get support from the USA and Europe... they just came to Palestinian houses and chased them away like dogs.

Jews should realise that they have lost Israel when God decides to expel them from Israel.

Imagine, your ancestors came to settle in a place for hundred of years with no interruptions, established a business/farm, having lots of passionate of the place you're living..... then suddenly someones claimed (with no proper documentations like title deeds etc) and forced you to get out... Is it Justice?

It's not Palestinians that expelled the Jews.... but why they have to pay for the crimes they never did.

Seriously, Israelis might have a country right now... but they have Palestinians bloods on their hand..... and they are proud of it?imsad

Palestina was always under someones occupation, romans, arabs.. How did arabs take over Palestina? By force. The same like Israel.

[mariam.]

Palestina was always under someones occupation, romans, arabs, and crusaders .. How did arabs take over Palestina? By force. The same like Israel.

Same? .... I hope you read the history of palestine before you judge.

[mariam.]

How about an honest statement?
Abbas's lack of sucess does not mean he is an agent of Israel.
Lies and distortions, how sad.
It has been bad for 6o years. Abbas didn't start it.
The fact that many Palestinians do not want peace as a primary objective has more to do with causing the failure than Abbas.
You can't solve problems if you have no clue to what caused them.

Look .. we don't care about abbas Or any one else.
what we really want is to see palestine free again .. that's it.

[MTAFFI]

Better or worse .. it's our problem not yours.

That is quite a statement, your problem not ours huh? I would feel safe saying that many of the problems that Islam faces which is then replicated in the form of suicide attacks, 9/11, hatred for the west, etc. stems for this particular issue. It is everyones problem, muslim and non muslims alike

So, don't imagine that we are from those who kneel to Israeli killer .. Like Abbas this big traitor .. who sell his land for Money and seat.

Who ever said to kneel to anyone? Arrogance is an ugly thing, Abbas realizes that Palestine is in no shape to beat Israel out of the land, Hamas is just to stupid to get it, they will fight to the death for their cause, but what will they achieve, when they are all dead their cause will die with them and then there will never be a Palestinian state. I can understand the Palestinian hatred for Israel, Israel conquered the land and took it for their own, but this is the way of the world and they can accept it or keep fighting and dying. Israel has been thriving for 60 years while at "war" with Palestine, but they show no internal signs of it, now look at Palestine, they lost this war a long time ago, when the Arabs lost. "Live to fight another day"

Not only that but the methods that Hamas is using are wrong, and are against the teachings of the Quran and the Prophet (pbuh). Do you think that Allah will grant them victory? Obviously not by looking at the shape they are in today.

Muslims conquered this land long ago, now the Jews have come back and conquered it 60 years ago, they will have that land for some time to come, you can bet on that, but who is to say that in 50 or 100 years, if the Palestinians just tried to live in peace for now they couldnt take their land back? Perhaps let their military build up, and their economy, then if they still feel they must, then attack and take back the land. With that said I feel like if they did try to live in peace, they may find their Israeli neighbors may not be so bad and perhaps they would just share the land, but who knows, it is always easy to theorize.

we are a honorable people .. we can't sell our Land and Lose our dignity for some food.
peace .. I hope you understand me

Muslims are indeed honorable people, I can understand not losing your dignity, but do you feel that Muslims are sustaining dignity by what is happening in Palestine today? I sure dont, I think it is a shame or better yet an ugly spot on Islam's history, that grows everyday this continues, lets just pray that it can be cleaned up.

Peace

[mariam.]

Muslims are indeed honorable people, I can understand not losing your dignity, but do you feel that Muslims are sustaining dignity by what is happening in Palestine today? I sure dont, I think it is a shame or better yet an ugly spot on Islam's history, that grows everyday this continues, lets just pray that it can be cleaned up.

Peace

thank you MTAFFI

I agree with you .. what happening in Palestine today is a shame.
but, at the same time I can't support peace with out taking our rights back.

do you read my reply number 34?

peace.

[MTAFFI]

thank you MTAFFI

do you read my reply number 34?

peace.

I did but it was a while back, I forgot (the memory isnt what it used to be)


Anyways I agree with you on the issue of rights, but how will they obtain rights through use of violence? I dont think that Hamas has any desire of sitting and talking about rights or the welfare of the people of Palestine, however I am not saying that Fatah would be looking out for the rights either, but I think that they would have a better chance of making progress if different militant groups would stop firing off. It is a bad situation any way you cut it, really what Palestine may need are some fresh faces and new ideas

[Keltoi]

Makes the days of Arafat look good.

[Zman]

Salam Zman


You will never find a pro-western article on ‘http://www.informationclearinghouse’.

Salam Plex,

Why not? Just because they print the truth, doesn't mean that they are anti-Western, biased, or self-hating Westerners.

This is Just an excuse to dismiss anything others say that strikes our nerves.

Not that there is nothing of value to be got from the unaccountable authors.

I disagree. Everyone is entitled to submit their views and news. Everyone's opinion counts. You may not agree with what they say, But, it must respected.

Also, much of the information that is submitted on these alternative news sites, come from famous and respected authors, and mainstream media outlets. They aren't widely disseminated, due to the fact that they strike a nerve and make some people uncomfortable.

Islam seeks nothing less than a total global domination.

Everyone seeks to dominate the world. Just as America has dominated the world since the end of WW2. The West has also dominated the world since 1492.

Islam seeks to guide the wolrd through peace, Justice and harmony, if given a chance.[/i]

The word Islam literally means “submission” or “surrender”, the kind that comes by force or fraud.

Incorrect. Submission to God's Will, not non-Muslims submitting to Muslims.

Its scripture must be taken literally; its provisions are intended to dominate every waking moment in the life of a believer.

Islam, seeks to guide us, not to dominate or enslave us.

On the other hand, your above aligations fits hand-in-glove, with the current man-made global laws. They truly are intended to dominate, and enslave us. Anyone who voices a differing opinion or an opposing view than that of the majority or authority is accused of being a non-conformist, and all efforts are made to silence and defame that individual.

Before you hurl accusations towards Islam, you should confront the very acts the West commits on a daily bases, yet hypocritically turns around and lectures others for not following those very rules.

People in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones at others.

There is no room for being a half-hearted Muslim

You're either a Muslim or not. As long as you recite the Shahadah, you are a Muslim.

What do you mean by a "half-hearted Muslim?"

and no toleration of watering down its invocations.

Why water down Islam?

No disrespect intended, but that is none of your business nor is it of the Wests, or even Muslims.

Islam is to be practices as God intended it to be, as it was Revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)...

[wilberhum]

You will never find a pro-western article on ‘http://www.informationclearinghouse’.

Why not? Just because they print the truth

It is like me going to the "Prophet of Doom" for honest information about Islam.

[guyabano]

Why not? Just because they print the truth, doesn't mean that they are anti-Western, biased, or self-hating Westerners.

Hahaha, what truth ? The truth YOU just want to hear and fit your consiracy theories !

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

The Israeli Recipe For 2008: Genocide In Gaza, Ethnic Cleansing In The West Bank

By Ilan Pappé
From The June 23, 2007 Issue
The IndyPendent

Not long ago, I claimed that Israel is employing genocidal policies in the Gaza Strip. I hesitated before using this very charged term and yet decided to adopt it. The responses I received indicated unease in using such a term.

I rethought the term for a while, but concluded with even stronger conviction: it is the only appropriate way to describe what the Israeli army is doing in the Gaza Strip.

On Dec. 28, 2006, the Israeli human rights organization Betzelem published its annual report on Israeli atrocities in the occupied territories.

In 2006, Israeli forces killed 660 citizens, triple the number of the previous year (around 200).

Most of the dead are from the Gaza Strip, where Israeli forces demolished almost 300 houses and have slain entire families.

Since 2000, almost 4,000 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces, half of them children, and more than 20,000 wounded.

The point is not just about escalating intentional killings but the strategy.

Annexation:

Israeli policy makers are facing two very different realities in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

In the former, they are finishing construction of their eastern border. Their internal ideological debate is over, and their master plan for annexing half of the West Bank is gaining speed.

The last phase was delayed due to the promises made by Israel, under the Road Map, not to build new settlements.

Israel found two ways of circumventing this.

First, it defined a third of the West Bank as Greater Jerusalem, which allowed it to build towns and community centers within this new annexed area.

Second, it expanded old settlements to such proportions that there was no need to build new ones.

Creeping Transfer:

The settlements, army bases, roads and the wall will allow Israel to annex almost half of the West Bank by 2010.

Within these territories, Israeli authorities will continue to implement creeping transfer policies against the considerable number of Palestinians who remain.

There is no rush.

As far as the Israelis are concerned they have the upper hand there; the daily abusive and dehumanizing combination of army and bureaucracy effectively adds to the dispossession process.

All governing parties from Labor to Kadima accept Ariel Sharon’s strategic thinking that this policy is far better than the one offered by the blunt “transferists” or ethnic cleansers, such as Avigdor Liberman.

In the Gaza Strip there is no clear Israeli strategy, but there is a daily experiment with one.

The Israelis see the Strip as a distinct geo-political entity from the West Bank. Hamas controls Gaza, while Mahmoud Abbas seems to run the fragmented West Bank with Israeli and American blessing.

There is no land in the Strip that Israel covets and there is no hinterland, like Jordan, to which the Palestinians can be expelled.

Ethnic cleansing is ineffective here.

The earlier strategy in the Strip was ghettoizing the Palestinians there, but this is not working.

The Jews know it best from their history.

In the past, the next stage against such communities was even more barbaric.

It is difficult to tell what does the future hold for the Gaza community: ghettoized, quarantined, unwanted and demonized.
Throwing Away The Key:

Creating the prison and throwing the key to the sea, as South African law professor John Dugard has put it, was an option the Palestinians in the Strip reacted against with force in September 2005.

Determined to show that they were still part of the West Bank and Palestine, they launched the first significant number of missiles into the Western Negev. The shelling was a response to an Israeli campaign of massive arrests of Hamas and Jihad people in the Tul Karim area.

Israel responded with operation “First Rain.”

Supersonic flights were flown over Gaza to terrorize the entire population, succeeded by heavy bombardment of vast areas from the sea, sky and land.

The logic, the Israeli army explained, was to weaken the community’s support for the rocket launchers.

As was expected, by the Israelis as well, the operation only increased the support for the rocket launchers.

The real purpose was experimental.

The Israeli generals wished to know how such operations would be received at home, in the region and in the world.

And it seems the answer was “very well;” no one took interest in the scores of dead and hundreds of wounded Palestinians.

Following operations were modeled on First Rain.

The difference was more firepower, more casualties and more collateral damage and, as expected, more Qassam missiles in response.

Accompanying measures ensured full imprisonment of Gazans through boycott and blockade, with which the European Union is shamefully collaborating.

The capture of Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in June 2006 was irrelevant in the general scheme, but it provided an opportunity for the Israelis to escalate even more.

After all, there was no strategy that followed the decision of Sharon to remove 8,000 settlers from Gaza whose presence complicated “punitive” missions.

Since then, the “punitive” actions continue and have become a strategy.

First Rain was replaced by “Summer Rains.”

In a country where there is no rain in the summer, one can expect only showers of F-16 bombs and artillery shells hitting the people of the Strip.

Summer Rains brought a novel component: the land invasion into parts of the Gaza Strip.

This enabled the army to kill citizens and present it as an inevitable result of heavy fighting within densely populated areas and not of Israeli policies.

Summer Rains, Autumn Clouds:

When the summer was over came the even more efficient “Autumn Clouds:” beginning on Nov. 1, 2006, the Israelis killed 70 civilians in less than 48 hours.

By the end of that month, almost 200 were killed, half of them children and women.

Some of the activity was parallelled the Israeli attacks on Lebanon, making it easier to complete the operations without much external attention, let alone criticism.

From First Rain to Autumn Clouds there is escalation in every parameter.

The first is erasing the distinction between “civilian” and “non-civilian” targets: the population is the main target for the army’s operation.

Second is the escalation in the means: employment of every possible killing machine the Israeli army possesses.

Third is escalation in the number of casualties: with each future operation, a much larger number of people are likely to be killed and wounded.

Finally, and most importantly, the operations have become a strategy — the way Israel intends to solve the problem of the Gaza Strip.

A creeping transfer in the West Bank and a measured genocidal policy in the Gaza strip are the two strategies Israel employs today.

From an electoral point of view the policy in Gaza is problematic, as it does not reap any tangible results; the West Bank under Mahmoud Abbas is yielding to Israeli pressure and there is no significant force that arrests the Israeli strategy of annexation and dispossession.

Gaza Fights Back:

But the Strip continues to fire back. This would enable the Israeli army to initiate larger genocidal operations in the future, but there is also the great danger that, as in 1948, the army would demand a more drastic and systematic “punitive” action against the besieged people of the Gaza Strip.

Ironically, the Israeli killing machine has rested lately.

Its generals are content that the internal killing in the Strip does the job for them.

They watch satisfied the emerging civil war in the Strip that Israel foments and encourages.

The responsibility of ending the fighting lies of course with the Palestinian groups themselves, but U.S. and Israeli interference, the continued imprisonment, the starvation and strangulation of the Strip all make such an internal peace process very difficult.

Cutting Israel’s Oxygen:

What unfolds in Gaza is a battleground between America’s and Israel’s local proxies most unintentional but who dance to Israel’s tune nonetheless — and those who oppose their plans. The opposition that took over Gaza did it in a way that one finds very hard to condone or cheer.

Once fighting there subsides, the Israeli Summer Rains will fall down again on the people in the Strip, wreaking havoc and death.

There is no other way of stopping Israel than that of boycott, divestments and sanctions.

The only soft point of this killing machine is its oxygen lines to “western” civilization and public opinion.

It is still possible to puncture them and make it at least more difficult for the Israelis to implement their future strategy of eliminating the Palestinian people either by cleansing them in the West Bank or genocide in the Gaza Strip.

Dr. Ilan Pappé is an Israeli historian and author of numerous books, including The Modern Middle East and The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.

Source:
http://www.indypendent.org/?p=1184

[Keltoi]

Dr. Ilan Pappe is hardly an unbiased historian, but of course it wasn't intended to be unbiased. Pappe is a communist and has a track record of supporting claims that cannot be independently verified. If this article was supposed to show how "Israelis" feel about the situation, I'm afraid I'm not buying it. This is like posting an article by Michael Moore to prove how bad Republicans are.

[wilberhum]

I think Michael Moore is more objective than most of Zman's copy/paste articles. :?

[Keltoi]

I think Michael Moore is more objective than most of Zman's copy/paste articles. :?

..and at least Moore's work has a laugh thrown in occasionally.

[Plexus]

Salam Zman

Originally Posted by Plexus
Salam Zman


You will never find a pro-western article on ‘http://www.informationclearinghouse’.

Salam Plex,

Why not? Just because they print the truth, doesn't mean that they are anti-Western, biased, or self-hating Westerners.

This is Just an excuse to dismiss anything others say that strikes our nerves.

Yes they are bias and unaccountable.
The Muslim’s contributions will be bias because they believe the Kaffir are filth and committing mischief in the world (I don’t quote Qu’ran, Hadith & Sunnah because I assume you know).
The political left leaning, such as me who are critical of current institutions of global economics such as the World Trade Organization.
Western conservative Goverments are more and more in the pockets of corporations. And the huge profit made in war makes me very worry about the influence of economics over peace.

Not that there is nothing of value to be got from the unaccountable authors.

I disagree. Everyone is entitled to submit their views and news. Everyone's opinion counts. You may not agree with what they say, But, it must respected.

Also, much of the information that is submitted on these alternative news sites, come from famous and respected authors, and mainstream media outlets. They aren't widely disseminated, due to the fact that they strike a nerve and make some people uncomfortable.

And I read as many views as I can and I agree with some but some I can’t respect.

Islam seeks nothing less than a total global domination.

Everyone seeks to dominate the world. Just as America has dominated the world since the end of WW2. The West has also dominated the world since 1492.
Islam seeks to guide the wolrd through peace, Justice and harmony, if given a chance.

The word Islam literally means “submission” or “surrender”, the kind that comes by force or fraud.

Incorrect. Submission to God's Will, not non-Muslims submitting to Muslims.

Qu’ran: 9:29: “Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission,

Its scripture must be taken literally; its provisions are intended to dominate every waking moment in the life of a believer.

Islam, seeks to guide us, not to dominate or enslave us.

On the other hand, your above aligations fits hand-in-glove, with the current man-made global laws. They truly are intended to dominate, and enslave us. Anyone who voices a differing opinion or an opposing view than that of the majority or authority is accused of being a non-conformist, and all efforts are made to silence and defame that individual.

Before you hurl accusations towards Islam, you should confront the very acts the West commits on a daily bases, yet hypocritically turns around and lectures others for not following those very rules.
People in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones at others.

If you mean dominant in progress and development, yes the West is especially America, where you enjoy the freedom to practice the religion of your choice in the comfort of a successful economy. The West is dominant in medicine, technology and the science for example. Even little Israel has more Noble Prize winners amongst its citizens than all of the Muslim nations put together. The West are leaders in tolerance for others beliefs. Equality between men and women. On the cutting edge if you like, of freedoms for its citizen’s commiserate with our level of civility.


You are dissatisfied with the West (so am I) and you think you’ve found the answer in Islam.

The West has many problem’s and faults but you can’t compare it with the backwardness and violence of sharia Islamic states. Where is this peaceful and harmonic Islam, where is it present today? Or, was it present in the past any where in the whole world at all? If so, could you kindly give an example of a peaceful and harmonic Islam? What are the good things that Qu’ran or Hadiths teach?
Give Islam a chance?
It’s been 1400 years of violence.

I hate what’s happening to the people in Palestine today and I want it to stop. If the Muslim’s laid down their weapons there would be peace but because the Mosque teaches people Muhammad made Jews into pigs and donkeys and the parents teach their children that so there will never be peace.

("O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guides not a people unjust." Quran 5:51)

If the Jews laid down their weapons they’d cease to exist.

Islam seeks to rule by any means whatever, including violent jihad.

Qu’ran 8.06: Against them (the unbelievers) make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.”.

The enemies of Allah are enemies for mealy rejecting Islam.

Muhammad was a great man, as a Bedouin in the Bronze Age he was successful and the laws he imposed may have been superior to what was at that time but you want to live like that today?

There is no room for being a half-hearted Muslim

You're either a Muslim or not. As long as you recite the Shahadah, you are a Muslim.

What do you mean by a "half-hearted Muslim?":

There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Moderate Muslims or in other words non-practicing Muslims, like millions of Muslims, are Muslims by default, who were born into a faith they did not choose, a faith in most cases inflicted upon them by invaders of a foreign culture, a faith that forbids them to leave or revert to their pre-Islamic heritage and religions. Therefore, vast majority of Muslims remain Muslims in name only.

and no toleration of watering down its invocations.

Why water down Islam?

No disrespect intended, but that is none of your business nor is it of the Wests, or even Muslims.

Islam is to be practices as God intended it to be, as it was Revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)...

That's the problem. It is Islamic teaching that Muhammad is the perfect example for mankind for all time. And the Qu'ran is the words of Allah with out any mistakes.
It would be wonderful to believe that if only a quiet reform could mend the hearts of Muslims, and that much of their sacred writings could be overlooked and forgotten, or perhaps just re-interpreted, then all of the Islamic world could join the community of modern, civilized humankind. Unfortunately, this plan can never work. It might work for a while, but then some Muslims might take to reading, and the whole jihad, terror, coercion, Sharia trend would start over. You cannot reform that which is central to a religion.

[- Qatada -]

Plexus, it's amazing isn't it? And if we check your intro - you pretend to be muslim? Now you're an expert at Qur'an aswell?


Isn't it amazing how you pretend to be Muslim in your intro:
http://www.islamicboard.com/introduc...u-alaykum.html



I think we'll have to discuss your position with the other mods. I think we would have let you off, but since you're taking so much verses of the Qur'an out of context, while you've already recieved a warning for doing so in the past - it may just lead to a ban.

Unless you really are willing to find out the context of them verses:

Commonly Misquoted Verses and Narrations


However, if this misquoting was to continue further in the future - it would lead to a direct permanent ban.




Regards.

[Plexus]

Plexus, it's amazing isn't it? And if we check your intro - you pretend to be muslim? Now you're an expert at Qur'an aswell?


Isn't it amazing how you pretend to be Muslim in your intro:
http://www.islamicboard.com/introduc...u-alaykum.html



I think we'll have to discuss your position with the other mods. I think we would have let you off, but since you're taking so much verses of the Qur'an out of context, while you've already recieved a warning for doing so in the past - it may just lead to a ban.

Unless you really are willing to find out the context of them verses:

Commonly Misquoted Verses and Narrations


However, if this misquoting was to continue further in the future - it would lead to a direct permanent ban.




Regards.

assalamu alaykum

Other than use the Muslim greeting where did I pretend to be a Muslim?
I wished people well... and that's all I did!
What's amazing is you saying I did.

Up until my last couple of posts I was ambiguous about my identity wanting what I said accepted or rejected based on it's merit rather than on who I was.

If my quoting of the Qu'ran, Hadith or sunnah is wrong or 'out of context' then I would hope someone would correct me.

Immediately Zman questioned me about my identity I became unambiguous.

Anyway, this thread is about the suffering of the people of Palestine/Israel and my point about Islam being the deal breaker or the ultimate stopper of a peace deal is valid as was confirmed by a post by a Muslim here which I cant get to right now cause I'm writing this.

[- Qatada -]

Plexus, i can bring up a load of deleted post of yours which 'incited Jihad' and from the looks of it, you wanted alot of the 'excited youth' to fall into your plot, maybe so you could give their names into the police? I don't know, but it sure seemed evil.


Anyway, since you don't know the contexts of the verses - then you shouldn't even be posting them. Second, if you really want someone to chase after you all the time to clarify the verses which you've taken out of context - then i don't think you should be posting them in the first place anyway.

I've given you the link so you can see the verses in context:

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions


You can check that out to clear your doubts. And like i said before, if it continues - it will lead to an immediate permanent ban, and we will warn others muslim forums of you and your activities (including IP details etc.)




Regards.

[mariam.]

Allah says in his Noble Qur'an:
" Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidence, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land! " (5:38)

In another ayah Allah mentions some qualities of His righteous slaves as He says what can be translated as :
" And those who invoke not any other god along with Allah, nor kill such person as Allah has forbidden, except for just cause, nor commit illegal sexual intercourse - and whoever does this shall receive the punishment. " (25:68)

Moreover, there are many Prophetical Ahadith where the Prophet Peace be upon him calls believers to respect and to protect the humanitarian life. So he said that killing a person is one of the greatest sins ,which the polytheism and killing the life and He also said, "A faithful believer remains within the sphere of his religion unless he kills somebody unlawfully".

Fighting in Islam was legitimated basically to prevent transgression, Allah says what can be translated as, " And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah(polytheism) is worse than killing. " (1:190,191).

The Noble Qur'an has given Muslims the legislative right of defense, Allah says what can be translated as, " And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah(polytheism) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-Al-Har&#226;m (the sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers.". (1: 190-194).

Islam gave the permission of war to ward off aggression against Muslims, So Allah says what can be translated as : " Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged; and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory. Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: "Our Lord is Allah." For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of Allah is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down. Verily, Allah will help those who help His (Cause). Truly, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty." (22:39,40)

Also Allah says what can be translated as: " And if you punish (your enemy, O you believers in the Oneness of Allah), then punish them with the like of that with which you were afflicted. But if you endure patiently, verily, it is better for (the patient). " (16: 126).

Islam has given Muslims the permission to fight against treacherous and those who broke the treaties of Conventions that were made between Islamic countries and other countries. Regarding this, Allah says what can be translated as, " Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve. So they shall not believe. They are those with whom you made a covenant, but they break their covenant every time and they do not fear Allah. So if you gain the mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they may learn a lesson " (8 :55,58).

Allah says what can be translated as, " With regard to a believer, they respect not the ties, either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who are the transgressors. But if they repent, perform As-Sal&#226;t (prayer) , and give Zak&#226;t (charity), then they are your brethren in religion. (In this way) We explain the (proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for a people who know. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack your religion with disapproval and criticism, then fight (you) the leaders of disbelief (chiefs of Quraish pagans of Makkah) - for surely their oaths are nothing to them - so that they may stop (evil actions). Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah), and intended to expel the Messenger while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."
(9:10,14).

Islam also has permitted war for the sake of saving and upholding the oppressed people. Allah says what can be translated as, " And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, ill-treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help. " (4:75)

and He says what can be translated as, " Verily, those who believed, and emigrated and strove hard and fought with their property and their lives in the Cause of Allah as well as those who gave (them) asylum and help, - these are (all) allies to one another. And as to those who believed but did not emigrate (to you O Muhammad), you owe no duty of protection to them until they emigrate; but if they seek your help in religion, it is your duty to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance; and Allah is the All-Seer of what you do. And those who disbelieve are allies of one another, (and) if you (Muslims of the whole world collectively) do not do so [i.e. become allies, as one united block under one Khalifa (a chief Muslim ruler for the whole Muslim world) to make victorious Allah's religion of Islamic Monotheism], there will be Fitnah (wars, battles, polytheism) and oppression on the earth, and a great mischief and corruption (appearance of polytheism)." (8:72,73).

Furthermore, In two prophetical Hadiths , Prophet peace be upon him gave advice to both Ali Ibn-Abu-Taleb and Mu'adh Ibn-Jabal in two different battles saying, "Don't fight them until you invite them to Islam. if they refuse, don't begin fighting until they kill one from you. Then, show them this killed Muslim and say, don't you accept what is much better than fighting ?!! it is to testify that there is no god but Allah (faith confession in Islam ) because, if Allah guides one man on your hands, this will be better than having all what on the whole earth".

In all his battles, the Prophet peace be upon him advised the army leaders and said, "Go ahead in the name of Allah, and by the blessing of his Messenger. Don't kill an old man, or a child, or a young person or a woman. Don't betray. Act in the Right way, and do good, truly Allah loves the good-doers". And He forbade also mutilating dead bodies as he said: " I warn you of mutilating the killed, even if it was a slaughter dog". He (SAWS) said also: " Don't kill women, or children, or those who are in the monasteries."

Also Abu-Bakr Al Siddiq (the verifier ), the 1st caliph to Muslims advised the first military expedition's leader in his era, Osama Bin Zaid saying: "Don't betray. Don't take illegally a part of booty. Don't mutilate the dead bodies. Don't kill a child, or an old man, or a woman. Do not cut down or burn palm trees and don't cut down a fruity tree. Don't slaughter a sheep, or a cow or a camel except for food. You will find on your way people who claim to have totally given themselves to Allah. Leave them to what they claim to have given themselves".
In his advice to his army leader headed for al-sham (The Levant), Abu-Bakr said to Abu-Bakr Yazed Ibn-Abu-Sufyan adding to what was said before " And never fight a wounded man, because a part of him is not his(likening the wounded part to the dead which is not to be put to torture at your hands ) . Speak a little as it suffices you what people have understood from you Accept people 's public deeds and entrust their secrets to Allah. Don't confine your soldiers, lest you should disgrace them ; don't neglect them, because you may spoil them. I place you in the trust of Allah, whose trust is never misplaced."

In addition, The Caliph Omar Ibnul-Khattab has advised his leader of the army saying: " Go In the name of Allah, and with His help. Go with Allah's support. You'll have victory by staying in the battle and being patient. Fight and transgress not the limits, truly Allah likes not the transgressors. Don't be coward when meeting the enemy. Never mutilate when you've the ability to do so. Don't exceed the limits in the matter of taking life when you're the winners. Don't kill an old man, or a woman, or a child and avoid killing them as much as possible and when the heat of the battle grows and becomes fiercer , make your fight only for the sake of God not for vainglory of this life ,then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme "

These Commandments in Jihad (war) ethics are more exalted, more perfect, more righteous, and more gracious than all what human's legislation contains. Hence, it's more higher than what the rules of modern international law in general reached and international humanitarian law in particular
There's a great difference between Islam's ethics in war and what is happening in Palestine for more than half a century, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Chechnya. In the name of what they destruct houses over the heads of their residents ,be it old men, children, or women?. It's in the name of democracy and reform?

Let Arab marines and hypocrites read those commandments to realize that, they sold the Hereafter for a cheap false world. The world that is not equal a mosquito's wing. Let Muslims' jurists in the international law raise their heads very high and say to the West and its jurists: "this is our religion which speaks the truth since more than fourteen centuries. The religion that legislate, formulate, and implement what you didn't reach in the century of Human rights and civilization.

Moreover, Islam has put a clear way in dealing with prisoners of war. This way has the essence of honor, preserve the dignity of the prisoner, and the maintenance of his life. In Qur'an there's many ayas that exhort us to honor war prisoners.
Allah almighty says what can be translated as, "After this, it is you who kill one another and drive out a party of you from their homes, assist (their enemies) against them, in sin and transgression. And if they come to you as captives, you ransom them, although their expulsion was forbidden to you. Then do you believe in a part of the Scripture and reject the rest? Then what is the recompense of those who do so among you, except disgrace in the life of this world, and on the Day of Resurrection they shall be consigned to the most grievous torment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do." (2:85).

Also Allah almighty says what can be translated as:" O Prophet (Muhammad) Say to the captives that are in your hands! "If Allah knows any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you, and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. "(8:70,71).

In Allah says what can be translated as, "And they give food, inspite of their love for it (or for the love of Him), to the poor, the orphan, and the captive"
(76:8).

On the other hand, if we look to the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him either what the Prophet said or did or agreed to during his life, we'll find it very much and need volumes but we'll refer only to the most important of it. As he said : " Fear God regarding prisoners of war" / "Take care of prisoners of war"


The messenger of Allah peace be upon him has forbidden harming or doing any injustice to prisoners of war as the Hadith says , "on the authority of Shihab as he said," Accompanied by a prisoners of wars , Abo-Baker once passed by Sohib while he was sitting in the mosque , on seeing him , Sohib said " who is this with you ? " "He is a prisoner of war ; I am going to ask the prophet's protection for him " replied Abo-Baker . " there seem to be what could be the effect of a sword in his neck !!" Said Sohib ; Abo-Bakr got angry as a result and headed to the prophet ; on seeing him as so , prophet Mohummed said " why are you angry ?" " I passed with my prisoner by Sohib ,who said he saw the sign of a sword in my prisoner's neck " prophet Mohummed said " Mind you didn't cause him any harm !!" Abo Bakr said " I swear by God , I didn't ."If you had harmed him . you would have disobeyed and displeased God and His messenger ." prophet Mohummed said .

Look to the difference between that and what's happening in the prison of Gwantanamo and Abu-Ghraib, in Palestine, in Iraq, and in Chechnya! Also look to what's happening in some other countries prisons. Tell me, where are Human Rights in that!!?.

In Islam even the killed persons have rights. In battles, the unbelievers corpse must be buried and never be let in streets until animals eat them, as we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan now .

This is just a few of the many and a drop of water in the Islam's wide ocean of generosity . I mention this to distinguish between the right path and the wrong one, the Truth and the falsehood, and the difference between our civilization and their civilization.Also to make those who have brain and heart to understand.

[Salaam]

:sl:

BIG up Hamas

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Maasha Allaah, an amazing post sister mariam.

I think everyone should read that to understand the beauty of Islaam, even if some muslims go against the teachings of the Prophetic way.

[guyabano]

Plexus, i can bring up a load of deleted post of yours which 'incited Jihad' and from the looks of it, you wanted alot of the 'excited youth' to fall into your plot, maybe so you could give their names into the police? I don't know, but it sure seemed evil.


Anyway, since you don't know the contexts of the verses - then you shouldn't even be posting them. Second, if you really want someone to chase after you all the time to clarify the verses which you've taken out of context - then i don't think you should be posting them in the first place anyway.

I've given you the link so you can see the verses in context:

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions


You can check that out to clear your doubts. And like i said before, if it continues - it will lead to an immediate permanent ban, and we will warn others muslim forums of you and your activities (including IP details etc.)




Regards.

Hmmm, Islam seems to be full of 'misconceptions' even at this point that they need webpages full of explanations how to interpret those misconceptions. ???!!

you know, where is a smoke, there is also a fire !

PS: This quote is NOT out of Quaran that's why NO misconception !

[- Qatada -]

Hmmm, Islam seems to be full of 'misconceptions' even at this point that they need webpages full of explanations how to interpret those misconceptions. ???!!

you know, where is a smoke, there is also a fire !

PS: This quote is NOT out of Quaran that's why NO misconception !

yeh i know guyabano! i'm amazed man.. it shows how much hatred people have for Islaam right? So they post up attacks against Islaam, and i dno.. for some reason - Muslims write refutations against their false claims.


Amazing isn't it!? :omg:



Peace.

[mariam.]

Hmmm, Islam seems to be full of 'misconceptions' even at this point that they need webpages full of explanations how to interpret those misconceptions. ???!!

you know, where is a smoke, there is also a fire !

PS: This quote is NOT out of Quaran that's why NO misconception !

actually this webpages which full of explanations is for those who didn't know how to read carefully to date.

do you read my reply number 132?
I think .. If you read it carefully you can understand Islam .. with out any explanations.

[mariam.]

Allah says in his Noble Qur'an:
"Allah. There is no god but He: of a surety He will gather you together against the Day of Judgment, about which there is no doubt. And whose word can be truer than Allah's?

Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath cost them of their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): So take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (from what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-

Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them.

Never should a believer kill a believer, except by mistake. And whoever kills a believer by mistake, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to Allah. for Allah hath All knowledge and All wisdom.

If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (for ever): And the wrath and the curse of Allah are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.

O ye who believe! When ye go abroad in the cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to any one who offers you a salutation: "Thou art none of a believer!" Coveting the perishable goods of this life: with Allah are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves before, till Allah conferred on you His favors: Therefore carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware of all that ye do." (4:87-94)

peace

[MTAFFI]

Allah says in his Noble Qur'an:
....
This is just a few of the many and a drop of water in the Islam's wide ocean of generosity . I mention this to distinguish between the right path and the wrong one, the Truth and the falsehood, and the difference between our civilization and their civilization.Also to make those who have brain and heart to understand.

That is a great post Mariam, it really does show the mercy and goodness of Islam.

My only question is, where is this mercy and justness in the wars that are fought today? I havent heard of a single militant group or government in the mid east that follows these Quranic teachings. If they did surely Islam would not be able to be distorted by the media as it is today. The people that are fighting and being fought against are nothing more than Muslim by name, which is why I wish more people on this forum would realize that the wars the west are fighting are not against islam but against those who wish to distort and tear down Islam through their actions. (I am not saying that the government of the west is any better when it comes to rights of POW)

Great post, thank you for clarifying these verses to people.:)

[- Qatada -]

That is a great post Mariam, it really does show the mercy and goodness of Islam.

Hey. :) I hope you or sister mariam don't get offended if i join in with the discussion.

My only question is, where is this mercy and justness in the wars that are fought today? I havent heard of a single militant group or government in the mid east that follows these Quranic teachings. If they did surely Islam would not be able to be distorted by the media as it is today.

There are muslim groups who do fight against evil, with justice, without holding innocents as hostages, without killing women, children, non combatants etc. However, they do not get the required attention since we've seen the media portraying Islaam is something evil for quite a while now.

The final Messenger of Allaah/God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) spoke the truth when he said:

"There will not cease to be a group from my ummah [community - the muslims], dominant upon the truth. The ones who abandon them will not be able to harm them, until the decree of Allaah comes."

[Authentically Reported in Saheeh Muslim]

The people that are fighting and being fought against are nothing more than Muslim by name, which is why I wish more people on this forum would realize that the wars the west are fighting are not against islam but against those who wish to distort and tear down Islam through their actions. (I am not saying that the government of the west is any better when it comes to rights of POW)

They may have good intentions, or they might not. However, we know that without a doubt - the evil acts which are done are unislamic.

Great post, thank you for clarifying these verses to people.:)

:)




Peace.

[Suomipoika]

However, they do not get the required attention since we've seen the media portraying Islaam is something evil for quite a while now.

Hello,

Isnt it starting to get bit old to always blame media, because, in all honesty, I havent seen anything in media that shows muslims/islam so negative as the hordes of muslim (not all muslims, but I use the word horde, because they seem to be so many in numbers) posters in these forums who, among other things, wish for death to people based on their sexual preference, post page after page crazy conspiracy theories and blame everything and all on the evil west, celebrate child killers as heroes, have no problem labelling other religious groups as rapists and so on.

[- Qatada -]

Hello,

Isnt it starting to get bit old to always blame media, because, in all honesty, I havent seen anything in media that shows muslims/islam so negative as the hordes of muslim (not all muslims, but I use the word horde, because they seem to be so many in numbers) posters in these forums who, among other things, wish for death to people based on their sexual preference, post page after page crazy conspiracy theories and blame everything and all on the evil west, celebrate child killers as heroes, have no problem labelling other religious groups as rapists and so on.

Hi.


Isn't it old to continuously label the people who do acts against Islaam as 'Islamic terrorism'? - you may get tired of the argument, and i get tired of the continuous hatred which it portrays.


There are many people who say evil about Islaam (yes, i'm using the argument again.) Yet there are people who do so from both sides, so if some muslims say evil, and promote the killing of children [which is against Islamic teachings] - then there are also people who aren't muslims who may say similar, that still doesn't mean it's right.





Peace.

[binAadam]

May Allah unite this Ummah, Aameen.

While Yasir Arafat and Shaykh Yaseen were alive, Palestinians were united, I don't think they killed each other as now Hamas and Fatah kill each other shamelessly. All they lack is leadership. Unfortunately both Fatah and Hamas are playing in the hands of Enemies, one at the hand of Kuffar and the other at the hand of Munafiqeen. I think it was a wrong decision for Hamas to come to politics, Shaykh Yaseen didn't do that in his life. Now we have two corrupt people, Hamas and Fatah both. They should have been attacking Tyrant Kuffar but they are killing each other, what a shame! Even Kashmiris in the subcontinent are not as worse as Palestinians are proving to be.

[Zman]

:sl:/Peace To All

The PLO Doesn't Represent Me

By Khalid Amayreh
In occupied East Jerusalem
June 23, 2007
ThePeoplesVoice

“The Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) is an illegal and illusory entity.”
These are the words of Farouq al Qaddumi, head of the PLO political department, as reported by several news agencies this week.

The veteran Fatah leader living in exile is telling the truth. In fact, the PLO ceased to exist as a viable and relevant body a long time ago. Its detachment from reality, internal disintegration and monopoly by the Fatah organization reduced it to marginal significance.

And when the self-rule Palestinian Authority (PA) was established following the conclusion of the hapless Oslo Accords in 1993, the PLO was more or less consigned to the museum of history, with most of its representatives and symbols coalescing into the western-backed PA.

The same thing can be said about the so-called Palestinian National Council (PNC), another unrepresentative body which Fatah uses as a rubber stamp to pass its controversial decisions, e.g. annulling the Palestinian National Charter for free in order to appease Israel and America.

Today, whenever the widely-despised champions of Oslo, people like Yasser Abed Rabbo, et al, who have long lost any significant support among Palestinians, want to show their defiance and disdain of the collective will of the Palestinian people, whether at home or in the Diaspora, all they have to do is invoke the sacrosanct mantra, namely that the PLO is the sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

Well, this time-worn mantra is acceptable no more.

The PLO, after all, is not an immortal idol that is not subject to change; it is not above the will of the people and certainly it is not a Holy Quran or a Holy Bible.

True, two or three decades ago, especially during the 1970s and 1980s, the PLO was viewed by many Palestinians as the chief representative of the Palestinian people, mainly because it championed the Palestinian national cause.

But now, things have changed.

There are other forces that are shouldering the national cause, such as Hamas which defeated the PLO, e.g. Fatah, in the 2006 legislative elections.
In fact, I dare predict that if similar elections were to be held among Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria and Lebanon, Hamas would again score election victories over a petrified and unreformed PLO.

I don’t deny that the once upon a time the PLO had a certain historical legitimacy. But that was a long time a go, whereas today the only acceptable legitimacy is the legitimacy of the ballot boxes, of which the PLO is almost totally bereft.

Indeed, if historical achievements, of which the PLO made very little anyway, were the determining factor of legitimacy, then Winston Churchill would have remained Prime Minister of the UK for life on the ground that he led Britain to victory over Nazi Germany and therefore deserved a special treatment by the British people.
Undoubtedly, there are other objective issues that make the beholder question the legitimacy, even relevance, of a half-dead anachronistic organization that has a skeleton but very little flesh, if any, and certainly no soul.

It is well known that the PLO Leadership is not an elected body.

Even Mahmoud Abbas, the American-backed PA Chairman, was elected by a small minority of Palestinians (less than 10%) in 2005.

The rest of PLO leaders, most of them in their positions for decades, have no electoral legitimacy whatsoever. Notwithstanding, they have the audacity to claim that they represent the Palestinian people.

But, in truth, they don’t.

Indeed, in light of the undemocratic decisions taken by the PLO executive committee recently, any Palestinian is prompted to ask the following questions:

Who elected Yasser Abed Rabbo to represent the Palestinian people?

Who elected Samir Ghoushe?

Who elected the heads of these tiny groups whose followers can barely fill two or three mini buses to capacity.?

Who elected these people whose names most Palestinians no longer remember.?

Who made them trustees and overseers over the Palestinian people and its enduring cause?

The answer is clear.

These people are remnants of the cold war era who should stop claiming to be the sole and legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people.

If they are interested in legitimizing their acclaimed but mendacious titles, let them contend a free and fair election so that either earn the confidence of the people, or relieve and be relieved.

Secondly, the PLO has been more or less a dormant body for many years, a body that is only remembered whenever the need to suppress the will of the people arises as is the case these days.

Thirdly, the vast bulk of the PLO is now based in the West Bank in the shadow of Israeli tanks and soldiers.

This means that the PLO is as pliant and subservient to the will of the occupier as is the PA.

This alone should make it devoid of legitimacy and honor.
PLO defenders ( or, more correctly, “PLO beneficiaries) would invoke the so-called revolutionary legitimacy.

Well, what revolutionary legitimacy are they talking about?

The PLO today happens to be controlled and manipulated by people who happen to be squarely in the American (Zionist) lap, people who have lost every shred of legitimacy if only because they have chosen the “American-Israeli legitimacy” at the expense of their people and their just cause.

Indeed, a PLO that is at America’s beck and call has no legitimacy whatsoever.

A PLO that constantly seeks to appease America and Israel by undoing the outcome of democratic elections is not legitimate.

More to the point, a PLO that signals its willingness to compromise on paramount Palestinians national rights, such as the Right of Return and Jerusalem, loses whatever legitimacy it may have.I am certainly not calling for dismantling the PLO. However, it is clear that the PLO must be revived and reformed in order to truly reflect the true will of the Palestinian masses.

Otherwise, it will continue to be an irrelevant body, no matter how many times its name is invoked to justify and “legitimize” every act of betrayal and treachery committed in the name of our struggle against Israeli apartheid and occupation.

© 2007 Khalid Amayreh

Source:
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-b...7/06/23/p17790

[SATalha]

I think the only credible people in the sitiuation are Hamas. Iam sorry but iam sick of seeing people giving stupid opinions that have been formulated by what they see on TV. Come on people dont rely on that box!!! Go and do your research and you will find that Fatah are the ones that have made it extremely difficult for Hamas to operate and adhere to the Mecca agreement. They have been stiring trouble since day 1. Yes Hamas could of handled the situation better, but its realy shameful to see the double standards of the west and Arab nations when they turned their back on the DEMOCRATICALY elected Hamas.

I see that the main Sheikh in Ageria has lent his support to Hamas, well thats good to know. Isnt it about time that we recognise them and also realise that they are hear to STAY! How long will you ignore Hamas the peoples party.

[Keltoi]

I think the only credible people in the sitiuation are Hamas. Iam sorry but iam sick of seeing people giving stupid opinions that have been formulated by what they see on TV. Come on people dont rely on that box!!! Go and do your research and you will find that Fatah are the ones that have made it extremely difficult for Hamas to operate and adhere to the Mecca agreement. They have been stiring trouble since day 1. Yes Hamas could of handled the situation better, but its realy shameful to see the double standards of the west and Arab nations when they turned their back on the DEMOCRATICALY elected Hamas.

I see that the main Sheikh in Ageria has lent his support to Hamas, well thats good to know. Isnt it about time that we recognise them and also realise that they are hear to STAY! How long will you ignore Hamas the peoples party.

Israel is there to stay too, that creates the problem with an organization who has the destruction of Israel written into their charter. Doesn't matter whether they are democratically elected or not.

[abumusa]

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cnf4zTLziv4"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cnf4zTLziv4" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[abumusa]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnf4zTLziv4

[SATalha]

Yes we know that Israel is hear to stay and i also think that Hamas know that to. You know that Hamas cannot do much to Isreal, if this nation was realy intrested in peace than they would deal with Hamas the MAIN political leader in Palestine.

[SATalha]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnf4zTLziv4

Ya Subhanallah this brings back memory of Brother Rantisi and Sheikh Yaseen may Allah grant them the reward of a Shaheed.

[abumusa]

Are you afraid to die?
It's death. Either by killing or by cancer,
it's the same thing.
We are all waiting for the last day of our lives.
Nothing will be changed.
If it is by apache or by cardiac arrest.
I prefer it to be by apache!

Dr. 'Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, one of the seven founders of Hamas. He was killed when a US-made Apache helicopter fired seven missiles on his car, also killing two passersby - a mother and her five-year-old daughter.

You cant mess with these people.

Its the real deal. May Allah bless their struggle. Ameen

[Keltoi]

Are you afraid to die?
It's death. Either by killing or by cancer,
it's the same thing.
We are all waiting for the last day of our lives.
Nothing will be changed.
If it is by apache or by cardiac arrest.
I prefer it to be by apache!

Dr. 'Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, one of the seven founders of Hamas. He was killed when a US-made Apache helicopter fired seven missiles on his car, also killing two passersby - a mother and her five-year-old daughter.

You cant mess with these people.

Its the real deal. May Allah bless their struggle. Ameen

You can't mess with who? Hamas? Israel has been "messing" with them for many years, and Hamas has been "messing' with Israel for many years. If you are "brave" enough to call for another nation's destruction, be brave enough to accept the consequences. Looks like he got his wish about dying by an Apache.

[SATalha]

Ameen, i just hope that Gaza does not remain islolated and the west start to deal with Hamas.....that is the least they deserve!

[abumusa]

Robert Fisk: Welcome to 'Palestine'

Published: 16 June 2007

How troublesome the Muslims of the Middle East are. First, we demand that the Palestinians embrace democracy and then they elect the wrong party - Hamas - and then Hamas wins a mini-civil war and presides over the Gaza Strip. And we Westerners still want to negotiate with the discredited President, Mahmoud Abbas. Today "Palestine" - and let's keep those quotation marks in place - has two prime ministers. Welcome to the Middle East.

Who can we negotiate with? To whom do we talk? Well of course, we should have talked to Hamas months ago. But we didn't like the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people. They were supposed to have voted for Fatah and its corrupt leadership. But they voted for Hamas, which declines to recognise Israel or abide by the totally discredited Oslo agreement.

No one asked - on our side - which particular Israel Hamas was supposed to recognise. The Israel of 1948? The Israel of the post-1967 borders? The Israel which builds - and goes on building - vast settlements for Jews and Jews only on Arab land, gobbling up even more of the 22 per cent of "Palestine" still left to negotiate over ?

And so today, we are supposed to talk to our faithful policeman, Mr Abbas, the "moderate" (as the BBC, CNN and Fox News refer to him) Palestinian leader, a man who wrote a 600-page book about Oslo without once mentioning the word "occupation", who always referred to Israeli "redeployment" rather than "withdrawal", a "leader" we can trust because he wears a tie and goes to the White House and says all the right things. The Palestinians didn't vote for Hamas because they wanted an Islamic republic - which is how Hamas's bloody victory will be represented - but because they were tired of the corruption of Mr Abbas's Fatah and the rotten nature of the "Palestinian Authority".

I recall years ago being summoned to the home of a PA official whose walls had just been punctured by an Israeli tank shell. All true. But what struck me were the gold-plated taps in his bathroom. Those taps - or variations of them - were what cost Fatah its election. Palestinians wanted an end to corruption - the cancer of the Arab world - and so they voted for Hamas and thus we, the all-wise, all-good West, decided to sanction them and starve them and bully them for exercising their free vote. Maybe we should offer "Palestine" EU membership if it would be gracious enough to vote for the right people?

All over the Middle East, it is the same. We support Hamid Karzai in Afghanistan, even though he keeps warlords and drug barons in his government (and, by the way, we really are sorry about all those innocent Afghan civilians we are killing in our "war on terror" in the wastelands of Helmand province).

We love Hosni Mubarak of Egypt, whose torturers have not yet finished with the Muslim Brotherhood politicians recently arrested outside Cairo, whose presidency received the warm support of Mrs - yes Mrs - George W Bush - and whose succession will almost certainly pass to his son, Gamal.

We adore Muammar Gaddafi, the crazed dictator of Libya whose werewolves have murdered his opponents abroad, whose plot to murder King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia preceded Tony Blair's recent visit to Tripoli - Colonel Gaddafi, it should be remembered, was called a "statesman" by Jack Straw for abandoning his non-existent nuclear ambitions - and whose "democracy" is perfectly acceptable to us because he is on our side in the "war on terror".

Yes, and we love King Abdullah's unconstitutional monarchy in Jordan, and all the princes and emirs of the Gulf, especially those who are paid such vast bribes by our arms companies that even Scotland Yard has to close down its investigations on the orders of our prime minister - and yes, I can indeed see why he doesn't like The Independent's coverage of what he quaintly calls "the Middle East". If only the Arabs - and the Iranians - would support our kings and shahs and princes whose sons and daughters are educated at Oxford and Harvard, how much easier the "Middle East" would be to control.

For that is what it is about - control - and that is why we hold out, and withdraw, favours from their leaders. Now Gaza belongs to Hamas, what will our own elected leaders do? Will our pontificators in the EU, the UN, Washington and Moscow now have to talk to these wretched, ungrateful people (fear not, for they will not be able to shake hands) or will they have to acknowledge the West Bank version of Palestine (Abbas, the safe pair of hands) while ignoring the elected, militarily successful Hamas in Gaza?

It's easy, of course, to call down a curse on both their houses. But that's what we say about the whole Middle East. If only Bashar al-Assad wasn't President of Syria (heaven knows what the alternative would be) or if the cracked President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad wasn't in control of Iran (even if he doesn't actually know one end of a nuclear missile from the other).

If only Lebanon was a home-grown democracy like our own little back-lawn countries - Belgium, for example, or Luxembourg. But no, those pesky Middle Easterners vote for the wrong people, support the wrong people, love the wrong people, don't behave like us civilised Westerners.

So what will we do? Support the reoccupation of Gaza perhaps? Certainly we will not criticise Israel. And we shall go on giving our affection to the kings and princes and unlovely presidents of the Middle East until the whole place blows up in our faces and then we shall say - as we are already saying of the Iraqis - that they don't deserve our sacrifice and our love.

How do we deal with a coup d'&#233;tat by an elected government?

[binAadam]

Israel is there to stay too, that creates the problem with an organization who has the destruction of Israel written into their charter. Doesn't matter whether they are democratically elected or not.

If they have destruction of Israeel written on their charter that's their right of the survival. Why shouldn't they want to destroy those who have only been destroying them for decades?

[abumusa]

"Which particular Israel Hamas was supposed to recognise. The Israel of 1948? The Israel of the post-1967 borders? The Israel which builds - and goes on building - vast settlements for Jews and Jews only on Arab land, gobbling up even more of the 22 per cent of "Palestine" still left to negotiate over ?"

[SATalha]

One more point, why should Palestine recognise Israel.....Israel should recognise Palestine first. It is this recognition of people that where the original occupants that will lead to peace.

[wilberhum]

One more point, why should Palestine recognise Israel.....Israel should recognise Palestine first. It is this recognition of people that where the original occupants that will lead to peace.

Why should any one do any thing to start the peace process. :skeleton:

After all it is clear that isn't what either want. :raging:

[KAding]

One more point, why should Palestine recognise Israel.....Israel should recognise Palestine first. It is this recognition of people that where the original occupants that will lead to peace.

The Israeli government has agreed to a two-state solution with an independent Palestine.

[mariam.]

I want to ask those who defend Israel .. did you read the protocols of the learned eldes of zion?

[Keltoi]

I want to ask those who defend Israel .. did you read the protocols of the learned eldes of zion?

I would laugh hysterically at this question...if it wasn't so depressing.

[Trumble]

I want to ask those who defend Israel .. did you read the protocols of the learned eldes of zion?

Oh, good grief. Don't say that rubbish is still being peddled in your part of the world? It's a totally fraudulent piece of anti-semetic trash.

Continued usage of the Protocols as an antisemitic propaganda tool substantially diminished with the defeat of the Nazis in World War II. It is still frequently quoted and reprinted by some antisemitic circles, and is sometimes used as evidence of an alleged Jewish cabal, especially in the Middle East.

I guess Wiki was right on the last bit.

[SATalha]

The Israeli government has agreed to a two-state solution with an independent Palestine.

Yes but why dont they deal with Hamas? oh yeah they want to destroy the state that destroyed them....i forgot sorry. I mean the whole argument is fluad in the sense that you are accusing the provoked and saying "hey why are you so mad". Use logic in you argument and understand that Israel are acting in a very demeaning, arogant and cruel way. The amount of Human rights abuse the Palestinian people have endured is ridiculous.

[Trumble]

Yes but why dont they deal with Hamas?

Because Hamas refuses to acknowledge the right of the State of Israel to exist and are committed to its destruction. Whatever the reasons for Hamas taking that position, which I do understand, it is totally illogical from the Israeli point of view to deal with them while they continue to do so.

[SATalha]

Man how many times have heard that? Trust me their are other reasons why Israel wont deal with Hamas. Its coz there not puppies like Fatah.

[Amadeus85]

I want to ask those who defend Israel .. did you read the protocols of the learned eldes of zion?

Dont you know that these protocols is just a false anti semitist propaganda made in Russia about 100 years ago to increase the hatred against Jews?
Its sad that you mention this, because also German nazis were using the same argument about the notorious Protocols.

[Keltoi]

Man how many times have heard that? Trust me their are other reasons why Israel wont deal with Hamas. Its coz there not puppies like Fatah.

Maybe the reason you hear that all the time is because it is the logical assumption to make. I think have a clear understanding of what a "puppy" is to you, and that is any person or organization who wants some kind of peace deal with Israel. If you follow your own logic to its conclusion, I think you know full well why Israel isn't dealing with Hamas.

[Amadeus85]

How can Israel talk with Hamas, while Hamas wants to destroy Israel and create an islamic state in the historical Palestina territory.

[Trumble]

Man how many times have heard that?

Do you not think there might be a reason for that?

Look at it this way. Imagine Israel agrees to talk with Hamas but has this in their constitution;

"There will be no Palestinian State, ever. We will allow money and aid to reach all 'Palestinians', and will provide more, but only if Gaza and the West Bank are absorbed into the State of Israel. All 'Palestinians' will be welcomed as citizens of Israel should they choose, and we will ship any who don't to the US or Europe."

Would Hamas 'deal' with Israel, do you think? Thought not.

[SATalha]

Maybe the reason you hear that all the time is because it is the logical assumption to make. I think have a clear understanding of what a "puppy" is to you, and that is any person or organization who wants some kind of peace deal with Israel. If you follow your own logic to its conclusion, I think you know full well why Israel isn't dealing with Hamas.

Sorry did i hit a nerv? You know at the end of the day we can see that Hamas have been the party who are truely wanting to represent that Palestinian people whole-heartdly and have the less corruption in their party. I mean their political members are elected by the supporters. Where else does that happen and they have non-muslims in their cabinet. You know why they are like this? its bcoz they have a strong sense of Islam in their party thats why.

[Keltoi]

Sorry did i hit a nerv? You know at the end of the day we can see that Hamas have been the party who are truely wanting to represent that Palestinian people whole-heartdly and have the less corruption in their party. I mean their political members are elected by the supporters. Where else does that happen and they have non-muslims in their cabinet. You know why they are like this? its bcoz they have a strong sense of Islam in their party thats why.

Struck a nerv? Not at all. Although your post has nothing to do with Hamas in the context of a peace deal with Israel.

[SATalha]

Do you not think there might be a reason for that?

Look at it this way. Imagine Israel agrees to talk with Hamas but has this in their constitution;

"There will be no Palestinian State, ever. We will allow money and aid to reach all 'Palestinians', and will provide more, but only if Gaza and the West Bank are absorbed into the State of Israel. All 'Palestinians' will be welcomed as citizens of Israel should they choose, and we will ship any who don't to the US or Europe."

Would Hamas 'deal' with Israel, do you think? Thought not.

You know in these kind of sitiuation one needs to look at the party with the most power. Come one realisticaly how will Hamas destroy Israel? they cant. So on that basis Isreal shoudl stop haulting at these technicalities and move towards real peace by dealing with the LEGITIMATE part Hamas.

[SATalha]

Struck a nerv? Not at all. Although your post has nothing to do with Hamas in the context of a peace deal with Israel.

I was just highlighting the reasons why Hamas are good enough for Isreal to broker a peace deal. These are valid reasons to why Isreal should deal with Hamas.

[Trumble]

Come one realisticaly how will Hamas destroy Israel? they cant. So on that basis Isreal shoudl stop haulting at these technicalities and move towards real peace by dealing with the LEGITIMATE part Hamas.

By exactly the same reasoning Hamas should "stop haulting at these technicalities and move towards real peace by dealing with the LEGITIMATE" State of Israel.

You know in these kind of sitiuation one needs to look at the party with the most power.

So according to your own reasoning (again) Hamas being less powerful have more to gain by a deal than Israel. So is it not up to them to make the first move by recognising the right of the State of Israel to exist as we both agree failing to do so serves no practical purpose?

[SATalha]

do you think if Hamas recognise the state of Isreal, Isreal would start talks with Hamas?

[Keltoi]

do you think if Hamas recognise the state of Isreal, Isreal would start talks with Hamas?

It would be a good start, a better sign of good faith would be if rockets stopped being fired into Israel. Nothing says I'm interested in peace more than an absence of rocket fire.

[SATalha]

Humm maybe they shuld just stop killing the palestinians first? But ur right maybe it wud be good 4 hamas 2 stop the rockets.

[Keltoi]

Humm maybe they shuld just stop killing the palestinians first? But ur right maybe it wud be good 4 hamas 2 stop the rockets.

Israel should stop killing Palestinians and Hamas should stop killing Israelis. Of course alot of things "should" happen.

[Zman]

:sl:

Hamas volunatrily ceased firing rockets at Irsael for one year.

That gesture of good faith & confidence builder, was met by continous Israeli assassinations of Hamas members and the bombarding of Gaza.

Hamas also offered a 10 year truce (which was a hell of great gesture & a measure of Hamas' seriousness), which was rejected by Israel. I guess the Israeli government prefers to see it's people killed, instead.

Israel doesn't want peace, and at every opportunity where peace can be achieved, Israel chooses violence...

[Keltoi]

:sl:

Hamas volunatrily ceased firing rockets at Irsael for one year.

That gesture of good faith & confidence builder, was met by continous Israeli assassinations of Hamas members and the bombarding of Gaza.

Hamas also offered a 10 year truce (which was a hell of great gesture & a measure of Hamas' seriousness), which was rejected by Israel. I guess the Israeli government prefers to see it's people killed, instead.

Israel doesn't want peace, and at every opportunity where peace can be achieved, Israel chooses violence...

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=53861

But top Hamas officials and spokesmen for the terror group told WND the truce was meant to show some flexibility to the international community. They said Hamas' goal of destroying Israel had not changed, and that the terror group has a 10-year plan to build a large army and defeat the Jewish state.

Yeah, sounded like a great deal.

[north_malaysian]

I want to ask those who defend Israel .. did you read the protocols of the learned eldes of zion?

I am not pro-Zionist, but "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" is a hoax made by a Russian - Matvei Golovinsk.

[Trumble]

do you think if Hamas recognise the state of Isreal, Isreal would start talks with Hamas?

Yes, if Hamas stopped firing rockets long enough. The Israelis wouldn't like it but the diplomatic pressure from the EU and US would leave them no alternative.

[guyabano]

Ameen, i just hope that Gaza does not remain islolated and the west start to deal with Hamas.....that is the least they deserve!

Well sorry to decieve you, but I just heard this morning in the news, that Israel/Arab World will unblock the bank accounts of Abbas to fight again the HAMAS, and I guess, that is also in the interest of the western world.

Click me

[KAding]

You know in these kind of sitiuation one needs to look at the party with the most power. Come one realisticaly how will Hamas destroy Israel? they cant. So on that basis Isreal shoudl stop haulting at these technicalities and move towards real peace by dealing with the LEGITIMATE part Hamas.

They are weak now. But like many here, I think Hamas is hoping for the 'Ummah to unite' and that God will grant them victory? Why else are so many Muslims in favour of war with Israel if they didn't think they will be victorious? There are a lot of Muslims out there, surely they must be able to defeat Israel eventually?

[i_m_tipu]

They are weak now. But like many here, I think Hamas is hoping for the 'Ummah to unite' and that God will grant them victory? Why else are so many Muslims in favour of war with Israel if they didn't think they will be victorious? There are a lot of Muslims out there, surely they must be able to defeat Israel eventually?

May be they can't tolerating the injustice.

U provably understands when u has same position by generations.

Some enjoy living with head high even death is ultimate result.
Some enjoy saving skin even they have to be slave of some animals for generations.
Some stuck in middle position. These people never find what to do.
Some supported both. Depending on the facilities.

Many people many mind.

And I enjoy giving honor to the people who really deserves it.
I can’t do injustice to me.

Al-Qur'an, 4.135 (An-Nisa [Women])
O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that ye do.

[MTAFFI]

Al-Zawahri: Muslims should support Hamas By MAGGIE MICHAEL, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 21 minutes ago



CAIRO, Egypt - Al-Qaida's deputy leader called on Muslims around the world to back Hamas with weapons, money and attacks on U.S. and Israeli interests in a Web audiotape Monday, urging the Palestinian militant group to unite with al-Qaida's "holy warriors" after its takeover of Gaza.

ADVERTISEMENT

The message from Ayman al-Zawahri, who is Osama bin Laden's top deputy, marked a major shift by al-Qaida, which in the past criticized Hamas for joining a government with the U.S.-supported Fatah faction.

The audiotape was clearly made after Hamas' takeover of Gaza earlier this month, marking a rapid response from al-Qaida's top leadership to the events. Its authenticity could not be independently confirmed, but it was posted on a Web forum where al-Zawahri has issued messages in the past.

Al-Zawahri urged Hamas to implement Islamic law in Gaza, telling it, "Taking over power is not a goal but a means to implement God's word on earth."

"Unite with mujahedeen (holy warriors) in Palestine ... and with all mujahedeen in the world in the face of the upcoming attack where Egyptians and Saudis are expected to play part of it," he added, suggesting that the two countries intend to attack Hamas to uproot its control of Gaza.

"Provide them (Hamas) with money, do your best to get it there, break the siege imposed on them by crusaders and Arab leader traitors," al-Zawahri, who is Osama bin Laden's top deputy, said, addressing Muslims around the world. "Facilitate weapons smuggling from neighboring countries."

"We can support them by targeting the crusader and Zionist interest wherever we can," al-Zawahri said.

The 25-minute tape, al-Zawahri's seventh released this year, was posted on the same day Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak was hosting a summit in the Red Sea resort town of Sharm el-Sheik as a show of support for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah. Along with Mubarak and Abbas, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert and Jordan's King Abdullah II are also attending the meeting.

The tape was titled "40 years on the fall of Jerusalem," a reference to the 40th anniversary of the 1967 war in which Israel defeated armies from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria and captured the West Bank, Gaza and east Jerusalem.

Al-Zawahri harshly attacked former Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser, blaming him for the defeat, and Mubarak for serving the interests of the U.S. and Israel.

The tape, which was posted with a picture of al-Zawahri, came a day after the alleged chief of al-Qaida in Egypt Mohammed Khalil al-Hakayma called for attacks against Israeli civilians and military personnel in Egypt.

"O Mujahedeen ... uproot the Zionist presence in the land of Egypt, stand up and set fire everywhere and don't differentiate between a civilian and a military personnel, as they have raided our children and women, we will also kill their children and women," said the online statement.
The authenticity of the statement could not be verified, but it was posted on the same Web site as al-Zawahri's audiotape.

Last year, al-Zawahri announced in a video tape that al-Qaida had established a branch in Egypt led by al-Hakayama.

Al-Hakayama was a member of Egypt's al-Gamaa Islamiya, or Islamic group, which waged a campaign of violence in Egypt during the 1990s, but was crushed in a government crackdown.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070625/...nians_al_qaida

[Skywalker]

I didn't even know this thread existed so I mentioned this interesting development in the old Gaza thread. Either way, let's get some opinions on this, here or there.

[abumusa]

We dont kill innocent people like they do. In this matter we differ with some people. But overall good message.

BUT i repeat Islam does not allow killing innocent people - whoever does this will answer to ALlah (swt). So we disagree with Dr Ayman - the Americans are not our teachers.

But we ask Allah (swt) to guide the Mujahideen.

People say incorrect things sometimes in Fog of War. Just ask the american war criminals...

[MTAFFI]

We dont kill innocent people like they do. In this matter we differ with some people. But overall good message.

BUT i repeat Islam does not allow killing innocent people - whoever does this will answer to ALlah (swt). So we disagree with Dr Ayman - the Americans are not our teachers.

But we ask Allah (swt) to guide the Mujahideen.

People say incorrect things sometimes in Fog of War. Just ask the american war criminals...

who is "we"

[abumusa]

"We" is all the Muslims i know.

We don't agree with killing innocent people (or maybe it should be I) but one has to give them sympathy because:

I don't have Amerikkkan troops in my country killing innocent people on a daily basis.

Also there is ton loads of evidence against killing innocents.

The Americans however are worse. Hundred times worse than Al Qaeda.

[Trumble]

"Unite with mujahedeen (holy warriors) in Palestine ... and with all mujahedeen in the world in the face of the upcoming attack where Egyptians and Saudis are expected to play part of it," he added, suggesting that the two countries intend to attack Hamas to uproot its control of Gaza.

What on earth would they do that for?!

[abumusa]

Hamas is also saying that they have captured around $400 million worth of weapons and other military equipment that the American government had supplied to Fatah. They will also be making available in coming weeks the CIA documents that detail the collaboration between the Americans and the Arab regimes against the various Islamic movements in the region.

Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=56262

[abumusa]

Hope that answers your question Trumble

[Trumble]

It does, but I'll believe it when I see it!

[abumusa]

If only the American people used the same logic...
i.e

the famous weapons of mass destruction LOL

[MTAFFI]

"We" is all the Muslims i know.

It is good to know that you and all the Muslims you know do not condone the killing of innocent people

We don't agree with killing innocent people (or maybe it should be I) but one has to give them sympathy because:

There can be no sympathy given to those who kill innocent people, they are treacherous murderers and are the reason that the world is in the shape it is in today, and they are the feeding trough that keeps the medias belly full

I don't have Amerikkkan troops in my country killing innocent people on a daily basis.

There are far more "Muslims" killing innocent people in these countries everyday than there are American troops, in fact it is very rare to see US troops deliberately targeting civilians as the suicide bombers to in these countries

Also there is ton loads of evidence against killing innocents.

I am not sure I follow

"
The Americans however are worse. Hundred times worse than Al Qaeda.

I have to disagree, do tell how are the Americans worse? If they are worse does that make it OK to Al-Qaeda to do what they do? Is it then OK for you to support them because you believe that they are the lesser of the two evils?

"And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah(polytheism) is worse than killing. " (1:190,191).

[Skywalker]

It does, but I'll believe it when I see it!

Same here, and I'm defintely very interested in seeing something like this! Hope they make it public for download and analysis like they did with Ahmedinajad's letter to Bush. Now THAT would be cool :D

The Americans however are worse. Hundred times worse than Al Qaeda.

Going by the actions of the US government throughout history, this is true.

[abumusa]

Amerikka has killed nearly half a million kids in Iraaq via sanctions before they even invaded.

No the "insurgents" whom everyone thinks are non-Iraqi (LOL) are making them pay. And they have a right to defend their country.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery." - Malcolm X

[MTAFFI]

Amerikka has killed nearly half a million kids in Iraaq via sanctions before they even invaded.

No the "insurgents" whom everyone thinks are non-Iraqi (LOL) are making them pay. And they have a right to defend their country.

"Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery." - Malcolm X

Saddam killed those kids, humanitarian aid, such as food and medicene where not sanction to Iraq by the US, but Saddam said if you will not give me weapons or weapon building material then I will not take anything, he then took the back door route with some Russians, etc and basically starved his people while he bathed in money and food.

Some of the insurgents are Iraqi, they are former military personel under Saddams reign, they have a right to defend their country, but who are they defending it against? The US soldiers who are there to act as police or Al-qaeda who is there to incite violence, destroy infrastructure, etc.

[abumusa]

Well i dont want to continue this convo because:

1. I believe America have occupied, invaders and crusaders
2. I believe "Insurgents" are home grown mainly, with other muslim helpers from sorrounding nations. And i call them freedom fighters not "Insurgents".

So lets agree to disagree on these points.

I support the Mujahideen in their aim of freeing Iraq, etc. But we cannot support them in actions that violate the Sharia. i.e. Innocent Civilians, Women and Children.

We praise for thier good acts i.e. the legitimate resistance like Fallujah.

We condemn them for killing innocents i.e. the bombs.

Brothers dont believe evrything you hear from the western media. Sometimes we can get the info from ourside.

i.e. As-Sahab, Al Jazeera

[MTAFFI]

Well i dont want to continue this convo because:

1. I believe America have occupied, invaders and crusaders
2. I believe "Insurgents" are home grown mainly, with other muslim helpers from sorrounding nations. And i call them freedom fighters not "Insurgents".

So lets agree to disagree on these points.

I support the Mujahideen in their aim of freeing Iraq, etc. But we cannot support them in actions that violate the Sharia. i.e. Innocent Civilians, Women and Children.

We praise for thier good acts i.e. the legitimate resistance like Fallujah.

We condemn them for killing innocents i.e. the bombs.

Brothers dont believe evrything you hear from the western media. Sometimes we can get the info from ourside.

i.e. As-Sahab, Al Jazeera

I can agree to disagree, and I will continue to evaluate and re-evaluate all of my opinions and sources. I would also encourage you to do the same.

[abumusa]

Also we condemn kidnapping journalists etc. This is because this harms the legitimare resistance.

Although we condemn we must understand. In Iraq it is like 9/11 everyday.

"In Iraq, they tell you there's a smell of death - and there is.
It's nasty, it makes you nauseous. You end up having to shoot the dogs - because you'll see dogs in the street with human parts, like hands, in their mouths."

American "Muslim" Marine
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6230498.stm

[wilberhum]

Also we condemn kidnapping journalists etc. This is because this harms the legitimare resistance.

because this harms the legitimare resistance? So you would have no problem with kidnaping if it helped. How about killing someone not involved if you thought is would help the resistance?
What wouldn't you do to help the resistance?

[abumusa]

As i have mentioned before Islam does not permit murder of innocent people. As a by-product kidnapping journalists fuels hatred twards the jidnappers.

i.e. It harms LEGITIMATE resistance i.e. Iraaq, Afghaanistan.

How can iraqi born people fighting the americans be Insurgents?

They really have us fooled :)

[Trumble]

How can iraqi born people fighting the americans be Insurgents?

You seem to be forgetting that the 'insurgents' principal enemy is not Americans, but other Iraqis. It's not American troops that are found in the mosques and markets that have been bombed. It's a battle for control of post-Saddam Iraq. Many of the 'insurgents' are effectively remnants of Saddam's regime and are, if anything, rather less 'Islamic' than the Shi'a groups they are fighting. Others are just outsiders there to cause trouble and fight Americans because they will fight Americans anywhere for as long as it takes for the locals to get sick of them.

Believe it or not the Americans have no intention of occupying 'land' or all the other tosh we frequently see here. Continued involvement in Iraq is a huge political downer, and will be for whoever is in office. There is nothing even Bush would love more than to be able to order all of them home tomorrow. They remain because the democratically elected Iraqi government wish them to remain - not because they particularly like Americans but because they know the country will descend into a blood-bath if they just packed up and went. Many Democrat and not a few Republican politicians still want to bring them home even knowing that.

It is ridiculous to talk of legitimate 'resistance', a fantasy world with no relation to what is actually happening. Who are they 'resisting'? Who is denying them their 'freedom' and what would they do with it if they had it? Although the Americans are supporting one side it is a civil war - Iraqi against Iraqi, muslim against muslim.

[abumusa]

It is ridiculous to talk of "American Help". Thats a fantasy world with no relation to what is actually happening.

Who are they 'Helping'? Who is denying them their 'withdrawal'?

Oil :)

[Trumble]

Who are they 'Helping'? Who is denying them their 'withdrawal'?

I have already answered both those questions. You have answered none of mine.

[SATalha]

Wow this thread has moved along? Anyway the West's decision ignoring Hamas i feel is a big mistake. I think that if we look at the real issues Hamas are the only ones that care about them. There is no point in denying that curroption has more potential to exist in Fatah than Hamas. People like Khaled Mishal and Ishmial Haniya will not allow it. So on that basis Hamas are the ones that have the best capabilities in bringing peace to the region. I hope they can take over the West Bank as well, but lets hope this unity thing works out.....thats if Fatah allow it to.

[MTAFFI]

It is ridiculous to talk of "American Help". Thats a fantasy world with no relation to what is actually happening.

Who are they 'Helping'? Who is denying them their 'withdrawal'?

Oil :)

Ridiculous? Not quite, the Iraqi government, elected by the Iraqi people (that were being blown up at the polls) has made it clear many times (in fact they have begged) that they wish for the US to stay and continue to train police, military, etc., so that they may provide themselves with their own security. That is the only reason that the US is still in Iraq, to help provide security. You then put oil with a smiley, well I am smiling right back at your incredible ignorance, please provide anything showing that the US has or will ever recieve a single drop of free oil. Since you are new to this site, I will tell you that the US has not, and in fact, we get most of our oil not from the M.E. but from Canada, Mexico and Venezuela. The American people are paying an average of $3 per gallon right now for oil, and it hasnt slowed anyone down, why would we want to steal it?

[Skywalker]

There is no point in denying that curroption has more potential to exist in Fatah than Hamas. People like Khaled Mishal and Ishmial Haniya will not allow it. So on that basis Hamas are the ones that have the best capabilities in bringing peace to the region.

I agree about the corruption BUT that doesn't automatically mean that they have the best capabilties in bringing peace. Abbas is smart, he's coy, he's a good politician, whereas Hamas are too honest and straightforward and this is NOT a good thing to be at this time. Not to mention the rockets and suicide bombers who aren't doing anything but creating trouble. If Hamas were smarter and became better politicians AND stopped with the dumb attacks then they could really have the capabilities to bring peace, but from where things stand now...I'm afraid they just don't have them.

[SATalha]

Yes your right in the sense that their political game needs to be more clever, although i think that they are trying there best. I mean their main leader is in exile, Isreal is trying to wipe them out. Rantisi and Sheikh Yaseen have been murdered. And many of their members are in jail with no convictions. I take my hat off to them that they are still in operation. But we are agreed with other members on this forum that Hamas should stop the rocket attacks and suicide bombings. I also think that it needs to be highlighted that its not only Hamas's armed unit that carries out suicide bombings, its Fatah as well.

[mariam.]

I would laugh hysterically at this question...if it wasn't so depressing.

Laugh as you want :) LOL .. I want to know your veiw about it, yeah maybe it's just a rubbish, but you can't be ignorant of them racialism, it's the reality that you can't disprove it.

you can resume your hysterical laugh Now .. peace

Oh, good grief. Don't say that rubbish is still being peddled in your part of the world? It's a totally fraudulent piece of anti-semetic trash.

yes it's .. and I know what you just tell me.
actually I want to thank you because you enter us in the piont that I want to discuss about when I write my Question.

ANTI-SEMETIC .. can you please define this word: semetic?

don't tell me it's means Jews ..

peace

[Keltoi]

Laugh as you want :) LOL .. I want to know your veiw about it, yeah maybe it's just a rubbish, but you can't be ignorant of them racialism, it's the reality that you can't disprove it.

you can resume your hysterical laugh Now .. peace



yes it's .. and I know what you just tell me.
actually I want to thank you because you enter us in the piont that I want to discuss about when I write my Question.

ANTI-SEMETIC .. can you please define this word: semetic?

don't tell me it's means Jews ..

peace

What do I think about it? I think it is a racist fear-mongering propoganda tool for those who wish to justify their hatred for Jews. Knowing that this is a forged piece of racist garbage...I have no feelings about it whatsoever in the context of the Jewish people.

As for anti-semetic, that is the term most used to describe those who have racial hatred for the Jewish people. Yes, Arabs are considered to be "semetic" as well, but in the popular language we all know what "anti-semetic" means.

[Skywalker]

I also think that it needs to be highlighted that its not only Hamas's armed unit that carries out suicide bombings, its Fatah as well.

Wow, is this true? I do remember hearing something like this, but I guess I just never paid any attention to it. Do you have any sources for this?

And secondly...they need a new leader. Someone wise, a politician, but at the same time a good Muslim. They'd also have to keep him in the shadows and make sure nobody knows of his existance lest he become another target for Israel. That's what I would do if I were them.

[- Qatada -]

Keltoi, there is loads of hatred for arabs, and i know that without a doubt because i have seen it, seen people insulting arabs and calling them evil names.


Therefore anti semitism also includes Arabs, since they too are the children of Abraham (peace be upon him.)



Regards.

[Trumble]

ANTI-SEMETIC .. can you please define this word: semetic?

don't tell me it's means Jews ..

'Semetic' is "an adjective referring to the peoples who have traditionally spoken Semitic languages or to things pertaining to them". And yes, I know that includes Arabs.

However,

Despite the use of the prefix "anti," the terms Semitic and Anti-Semitic are not antonyms. To avoid the confusion of the misnomer, many scholars on the subject (such as Emil Fackenheim of the Hebrew University) now favor the unhyphenated term antisemitism. Yehuda Bauer articulated this view in his writings and lectures: (the term) "Antisemitism, especially in its hyphenated spelling, is inane nonsense, because there is no Semitism that you can be anti to."

The term anti-Semitism has historically referred to prejudice towards Jews alone, and this was the only use of this word for more than a century. It does not traditionally refer to prejudice toward other people who speak Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs or Syriacs). Bernard Lewis, Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University, says that "Anti-Semitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews."

Source

[- Qatada -]

Trumble ^ who came up with that article? Why should it refer to Jews only? If arabs speak semetic languages, and anyone is anti arab, or jewish, or syriac - then yeah, it should be termed as anti-semetic. That guys authority is nothing, if it's lenient upon his own race. If someones anti black, it doesn't mean it's just anyone who's from Nigeria for example, it's anyone who's black. And there isn't an exception to that.


anti:

1. 1. Opposite: antimere.
   2. Opposing; against: antiapartheid.
   3. Counteracting; neutralizing: antacid.
   4. Destroying: antiaircraft.
2. 1. Inverse: antilogarithm.
   2. Displaying opposite characteristics: antihero.

[Greek, from anti, opposite.]



http://www.answers.com/anti&r=67




Regards.

[SATalha]

Israel under pressure to free Fatah leader who could hold key to peace
ANNETTE YOUNG
IN JERUSALEM
SPECULATION is growing that Israel may stage a dramatic U-turn and release the imprisoned Fatah leader Marwan Barghouti as part of a move to stabilise the West Bank.

Barghouti, 48, is serving five life terms in an Israeli jail for killing five people and belonging to a militant organisation, the al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade.

Fluent in Hebrew and English, and viewed by many Israelis as a pragmatist who favours negotiations with the Jewish state, he has enormous popularity in the Palestinian street. Many international experts see him as the best hope for peace in the area.

Hope this helps.

[mariam.]

So, you know what it's mean .. then why this partial view?

I think it is a racist fear-mongering propoganda tool for those who wish to justify their hatred for Jews. Knowing that this is a forged piece of racist garbage

please .. I want you to understand that we don't hate jews, but yea, we hate Israel.

that's completely different.
peace

[abumusa]

Wow, is this true? I do remember hearing something like this, but I guess I just never paid any attention to it. Do you have any sources for this?
.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Aqsa_Martyrs'_Brigades

[Keltoi]

So, you know what it's mean .. then why this partial view?



please .. I want you to understand that we don't hate jews, but yea, we hate Israel.

that's completely different.
peace

Then why bring it up if your only concern is the state of Israel? The only people who actually buy into the "Elders of Zion" garbage are those who hate Jews. Why associate yourself with it if you don't hate Jews?

[abumusa]

Zionism hates us

[Trumble]

Trumble ^ who came up with that article? Why should it refer to Jews only? If arabs speak semetic languages, and anyone is anti arab, or jewish, or syriac - then yeah, it should be termed as anti-semetic. That guys authority is nothing, if it's lenient upon his own race. If someones anti black, it doesn't mean it's just anyone who's from Nigeria for example, it's anyone who's black. And there isn't an exception to that.


anti:

1. 1. Opposite: antimere.
   2. Opposing; against: antiapartheid.
   3. Counteracting; neutralizing: antacid.
   4. Destroying: antiaircraft.
2. 1. Inverse: antilogarithm.
   2. Displaying opposite characteristics: antihero.

[Greek, from anti, opposite.]

I know what 'anti' means. But as the article said 'anti-semitic' is NOT an antonym for 'semitic' any more than 'antidote' is a synonym for 'dote'. 'Semetism', means

"a Hebrew or Aramaic vocabulary or grammatical construction brought into the Greek text. Also called Hebraism or Aramaism".

You will agree, surely that an antonym of that in the means you suggest (sticking 'anti' in front of it) makes no sense? Despite the prefix 'anti-semitism' a word with it's own definition, which means prejudice against Jews.

thefreedictionary.com

wordnet.princeton.edu

www.answers.com !!

Wikipedia

Though the general definition of antisemitism is hostility or prejudice towards Jews, a number of authorities have developed more formal definitions. Holocaust scholar and City University of New York professor Helen Fein's definition has been particularly influential. She defines antisemitism as "a persisting latent structure of hostile beliefs towards Jews as a collective manifested in individuals as attitudes, and in culture as myth, ideology, folklore and imagery, and in actions – social or legal discrimination, political mobilisation against the Jews, and collective or state violence – which results in and/or is designed to distance, displace, or destroy Jews as Jews."

Professor Dietz Bering of the University of Cologne further expanded on Professor Fein's definition by describing the structure of antisemitic beliefs. To antisemites, "Jews are not only partially but totally bad by nature, that is, their bad traits are incorrigible. Because of this bad nature: (1) Jews have to be seen not as individuals but as a collective. (2) Jews remain essentially alien in the surrounding societies. (3) Jews bring disaster on their 'host societies' or on the whole world, they are doing it secretly, therefore the antisemites feel obliged to unmask the conspiratorial, bad Jewish character."

Bernard Lewis defines antisemitism as a special case of prejudice, hatred, or persecution directed against people who are in some way different from the rest. According to Lewis, antisemitism is marked by two distinct features: Jews are judged according to a standard different from that applied to others, and they are accused of "cosmic evil." Thus, "it is perfectly possible to hate and even to persecute Jews without necessarily being anti-Semitic" unless this hatred or persecution displays one of the two features specific to antisemitism.[15]

There have been a number of efforts by international and governmental bodies to define antisemitism formally. The United States Department of State defines antisemitism in its 2005 Report on Global Anti-Semitism as "hatred toward Jews — individually and as a group — that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."[16]

In 2005, the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC), a body of the European Union, developed a more detailed discussion: "Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities. In addition, such manifestations could also target the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for 'why things go wrong'."

The EUMC then listed "contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere." These included: "Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews; accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group; denying the Holocaust; and accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations. The EUMC also discussed ways in which attacking Israel could be antisemitic, depending on the context, while clarifying that "criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."

Feel free to produce ONE English dictionary definition that defines anti-semitism more broadly, in the way you are suggesting.

[wilberhum]

Zionism hates us

Al-Qaeda deputy backs Hamas
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...FAB150695F.htm

Al-Qaeda's deputy leader has expressed his support for Hamas, and warned of an offensive that would be launched by others to wrest control of Gaza from the group.

What’s that old saying about “Birds of a Feather”?

[abumusa]

Hamas acted on a very real fear of a US-sponsored coup

Washington's fingerprints are all over the chaos that has hit Palestinians. The last thing they now need is an envoy called Blair

Did they jump or were they pushed? Was Hamas's seizure of Fatah security offices in Gaza unprovoked, or a pre-emptive strike to forestall a coup by Fatah? After last week's turmoil, it becomes increasingly important to uncover its origins.

he document is dated March 2, less than a month after Saudi Arabia brokered the Mecca agreement under which Abbas finally agreed with Hamas on a unity government. The deal upset the Israelis and Washington because it left Hamas's prime minister Ismail Haniyeh in charge. The document suggests the US wanted to sabotage it. Certainly, according to Hamas officials whom a depressed Abbas later briefed, Abbas was told to scrap Mecca at every subsequent meeting he has had with Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert or with US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice and Abrams.Most ominously, the document of US objectives outlined a $1.27bn programme that would add seven special battalions, totalling 4,700 men, to the 15,000 Abbas already has in his presidential guard and other security forces, which were also to be given extra training and arms. "The desired outcome will be the transformation of Palestinian security forces and provide for the president of the Palestinian Authority to able to safeguard decisions such as dismissing the cabinet and forming an emergency cabinet," the document says.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Sto...108926,00.html

[wilberhum]

The last thing they now need is an envoy called Blair

What is the first thing they need?
What will bring peace?

[abumusa]

"When a person places the proper value on freedom, there is nothing under the sun that he will not do to acquire that freedom. Whenever you hear a man saying he wants freedom, but in the next breath he is going to tell you what he won't do to get it, or what he doesn't believe in doing in order to get it, he doesn't believe in freedom. A man who believes in freedom will do anything under the sun to acquire . . . or preserve his freedom." X

[Amadeus85]

Same here, and I'm defintely very interested in seeing something like this! Hope they make it public for download and analysis like they did with Ahmedinajad's letter to Bush. Now THAT would be cool :D


Going by the actions of the US government throughout history, this is true.

USA rescued Europe from nazi Germans, USA helped aliants in ending the World War 1, USA saved life of many many muslims in Kosovo and Bosnia, USA tried to rescue southern and east Asia from the communist desease, USA defeated the Soviet Union in Cold War and gave freedom to many nations in central and eastern Europe.
And what AL Queada made valuable in history huh?

I am not American, but saying that USA are 100 time worse than Al Queda means that you are either ignorant or you dont know about history anything.

[abumusa]

How We Denied Democracy to the Middle East


The Brits created all those worthy sheikhdoms in the Gulf. Kuwait was our doing; Saudi Arabia was ultimately a joint Anglo-US project, the United Arab Emirates (formerly the Trucial State) etc. But when Iran decided in the 1950s that it preferred Mohammed Mossadeq's democratic rule to the Shah's, the CIA's Kim Roosevelt, with Colonel "Monty" Woodhouse of MI6, overthrew democracy in Iran. Now President Bush demands the same "democracy" in present-day Iran and says we merely "excused and accommodated" the loathsome US-supported Shah's regime.


http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk11102003.html


1. Slavery
2. Vietnam
3. Cuba, Latin America
4. Iraaq
5. Somalia
6. Afghnaistan


Please fill in the many many gaps

[wilberhum]

"When a person places the proper value on freedom, there is nothing under the sun that he will not do to acquire that freedom. Whenever you hear a man saying he wants freedom, but in the next breath he is going to tell you what he won't do to get it, or what he doesn't believe in doing in order to get it, he doesn't believe in freedom. A man who believes in freedom will do anything under the sun to acquire . . . or preserve his freedom." X

The fastest path to freedom is peace. Without peace, there will never be freedom.

[abumusa]

"You can’t separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." X

[Amadeus85]

1. Slavery

So Americans invented slavery? Man, hundreds years before USA was created, Arabs captured and sold slaves in east Africa and Turks in southern and central Europe.


3. Cuba, Latin America

What do you mean exactly? Cuba is such a poor country now because communism kills every progress and economical growth.


5. Somalia

Americans wanted to save Somali's people from Muhammad Farrah Aidid, who took over the food supplies sent to Somalia by West.

6. Afghnaistan

And who supported mujaheddins in fights against Soviet Union huh?

[Muezzin]

Whoah, whoah, whoah, guys. The topic? Remember?

[Zman]

Without peace, there will never be freedom.

Without Justice, there will never be peace.

Justice leads to freedom, which then leads to peace...

[Skywalker]

Sorry, I just can't help it...

Without Justice, there will never be peace.

Justice leads to freedom, which then leads to peace...

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory.
Through victory my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

The Sith code ;D

lol

[mariam.]

Then why bring it up if your only concern is the state of Israel? The only people who actually buy into the "Elders of Zion" garbage are those who hate Jews. Why associate yourself with it if you don't hate Jews?

because not all the jews are zionists ..

to me,I believe both sides suffer and die .. but, briefly Isreal is the responsible.

those believers in the two sides are victims .. In a world stained with injustice, tragedies and woes which stem from the hostility of man against man, being fueled by the selfish interests of narrow-minded opportunists by inflaming emotions and provoking passions through exploiting the inherent power of religion, which is in essence a divine system that promotes man, maintains his life and guarantees his rights; the significance of awareness and insightful comprehension rises as a fort that safeguards against falling into the mires of the lesion of seeing the ugly beautiful.

we have to diagnose for a disease that worsens by ignorance .. we have to elucidate and a quest for remedy which is based on awareness and right understanding.

So that the Religion Does not Become a Game ..

peace

[Keltoi]

because not all the jews are zionists ..

to me,I believe both sides suffer and die .. but, briefly Isreal is the responsible.

those believers in the two sides are victims .. In a world stained with injustice, tragedies and woes which stem from the hostility of man against man, being fueled by the selfish interests of narrow-minded opportunists by inflaming emotions and provoking passions through exploiting the inherent power of religion, which is in essence a divine system that promotes man, maintains his life and guarantees his rights; the significance of awareness and insightful comprehension rises as a fort that safeguards against falling into the mires of the lesion of seeing the ugly beautiful.

we have to diagnose for a disease that worsens by ignorance .. we have to elucidate and a quest for remedy which is based on awareness and right understanding.

So that the Religion Does not Become a Game ..

peace

I have no idea what your point is here.

[- Qatada -]

I agree too, we don't hate all Jews. However, we totally dislike the zionists who have occupied the Muslim land. We muslims never had a problem with jews living among the muslims for centuries, yet what's happening today is really evil.


I think sister mariam is saying that we need to come together to eradicate each others misconceptions, and teach everyone the right understanding in order to create peace between both parties.

[SATalha]

Just came across this video, can you blame the kid in the vid if he wants to grow up and destroy Isreal? bare in mind that many of Hamas's members are displaced individuals who have seen loved ones, villiages and homes destroyed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_...elated&search=

[MTAFFI]

...


I think sister mariam is saying that we need to come together to eradicate each others misconceptions, and teach everyone the right understanding in order to create peace between both parties.

It is sad to think that I probably wont see that in my lifetime

Reps for the suggestion though

[wilberhum]

Just came across this video, can you blame the kid in the vid if he wants to grow up and destroy Isreal? bare in mind that many of Hamas's members are displaced individuals who have seen loved ones, villiages and homes destroyed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_...elated&search=

And so all Israelies should kill them selves?
As long as revenge is most important, peace will not happen.

[mariam.]

I agree too, we don't hate all Jews. However, we totally dislike the zionists who have occupied the Muslim land. We muslims never had a problem with jews living among the muslims for centuries, yet what's happening today is really evil.


I think sister mariam is saying that we need to come together to eradicate each others misconceptions, and teach everyone the right understanding in order to create peace between both parties.

thank you brother .. that's exactly what I mean.

[Keltoi]

Somehow I don't think it was quite that humanitarian...you don't bring up the "Elders of Zion" to foster understanding. Maybe I missed something.

[SATalha]

And so all Israelies should kill them selves?
As long as revenge is most important, peace will not happen.

No but you can understand why these kids want to grow up and fight!
You only need to use your imagination Wilber? Think if it was your mum.....what would you do?

This is not the point its the fact that the Isreali soldiers are so smug about it, this is what rages us. It is similar with the Russian slodiers in Chechnya. They are smug and arrogant, for them the palestinians are vermin. They do not mean anything 2nd class, worthless.

It is this kind of attitude that Edward Said talks about in his books, Euro-American smugness. I think this is what is being manifested on the globe since Empires where carved out.

WE ARE THE RIGHT ONES FOLLOW US......YOU ARE INFIRIOR STAY BENEATH US.

[wilberhum]

but you can understand why these kids want to grow up and fight!

Sure. but you can understand why kids, who had there sister blown up while taking the bus to school, want to grow up and fight?

It is a two way street. Until both want peace, there will only be death and suffering.

[SATalha]

Both do want peace you are right. But the cycle must be ended.....by the ending the occupation. By the way think about whos getting the raw deal.

[wilberhum]

Both do want peace you are right. But the cycle must be ended.....by the ending the occupation. By the way think about whos getting the raw deal.

I did not say "Both do want peace". There are major factions on both sides that do not want peace. Ending the occupation will only bring the Suicide bombers and rocket launchers closer to Israel.

Why would Israel allow that?

It has to be a two way street.

[SATalha]

I think you need to be realistic, Hamas have said tons of time that they will stop when the occupation stops. What is so simple, stop the occupation than there will be better chance of peace in Palestine.

[wilberhum]

I think you need to realistic, Hamas have said tons of time that they will stop when the occupation stops. What is so simple, stop the occupation than there will be better chance of peace in Palestine.

I have to be realistic? Hamas has a stated objective of destroying Israel. :?
Tons of time? Name one that I can research.
As far as I know they have never recognized Israel's right to exist.

Do keep in mind, I'm am not pro-Israel, I'm pro-peace.
:thumbs_up

[SATalha]

Yeah i know Wilber, i can tell from your sig. Anyway I know Hamas have made statements like this and this has not helped them in anyway. But i still think the cycle of violence will only be ended when occupation ends.