Quran is corrupt , please help me refute

[Medina83]

I was debating the bible on a Christian forum about its corruption and someone posted this:

All this talk of corruptible texts. The fact is they all have undergone changes. It doesn't matter which one one looks at this is the case and that includes the Quran. The fact that the earliest quranic inscriptions on the dome of the rock(80 odd years after Mohammeds reported death) differ from the texts of today is proof enough. The addition of diacritical dots to the Arabic texts is another issue.The earliest extant Quran is written in a style from a period many hundreds of years after the chronology attributed to Mohammed. Etc etc.

The primary difference is how the Quran is regarded by it's followers nowadays when compared to the Gospels/Bible/Torah. It is the start and end point. This was not always the case but the Gospels/Bible/Torah have been subjected to far greater historical and theological analysis than the Quran has ever been. That continues today.

The Quran has obviously been studied and studied intensely, but the start point is the infallibility of same not it's origin. That is not questioned by Quranic scholars. Many outside researchers have found different voices in the texts, inconsistencies and historical innacuracies. Mecca not being mentioned at all before the Islamic texts, yet those same texts claim it was a very important centre of trade(the Greeks and others make no mention of it until much later after Islam starts to make it's presence felt in the region). Indeed the Islamic histories admit that there were different versions that were excised, accepted and collated under the first caliph. That was inspired by God. Sound familiar? The difficulty also comes from the lack of secondary texts that exist from the time when compared to the other texts. Indeed a lack of historical data from neighbouring cultures is unusual, given the importance placed by Islamic sources of the movement. The other difficulty is the danger of historical research like this for the researchers.

Can you please help me refute these claims against the Quran?

[E'jaazi]

I'm searching for you. Please be patient and PM me if you haven't heard from me in awhile. I sometimes lose the thread and can't find them again.

[MuhammadRizan]

:sl:

i think u should go to anweringchristianity.com
a lot of anti islamic allegiation been debunked there.:coolalien

[Malaikah]

The fact that the earliest quranic inscriptions on the dome of the rock(80 odd years after Mohammeds reported death) differ from the texts of today is proof enough.

:sl:

Umm... so?! That is not the oldest copy, nor is it the official copy. If it differs to the official, does that mean the official is wrong, the copy? The official copy dates way earlier that 80 years after his (pbuh) death- it was only a few years, if not less!

It just goes to show how little this guy knows!

Indeed the Islamic histories admit that there were different versions that were excised, accepted and collated under the first caliph. That was inspired by God.

Who said it was inspired by God?! They didn't rely on 'inspiration' to compile the Quran, rather they set out strict guidelines!

And it was well knows that the Quran can be recited in different ways- and these are all authentic and accepted. So what is his point?

He is just spinning some nonsense together, he doesn't know what he is talking about.

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[جوري]

Try finding an answer in this post here!
further, I think he (the some guy) has made very general statements, it would be easier to refute specific points, if he can bring them forth... this is like the lawyers opening statements to the jury, very emotional, not at all factual, with any luck the facts unravel during the course of the trial, I mean he rants about how the quran is studied but not by Islamic scholars, are you supposed to take that at face value?
Most of the time I wouldn't bother with a reply even, as he is asserting an opinion ( not a fact), when people are emotionally charged about a topic, "historical proof" has very little to do with it...If he is a textual exegetical scholar then perhaps he can dive in with something other than a bombastic introduction?..
:w:

[vpb]

All this talk of corruptible texts. The fact is they all have undergone changes. It doesn't matter which one one looks at this is the case and that includes the Quran. The fact that the earliest quranic inscriptions on the dome of the rock(80 odd years after Mohammeds reported death) differ from the texts of today is proof enough. The addition of diacritical dots to the Arabic texts is another issue.The earliest extant Quran is written in a style from a period many hundreds of years after the chronology attributed to Mohammed. Etc etc.

The primary difference is how the Quran is regarded by it's followers nowadays when compared to the Gospels/Bible/Torah. It is the start and end point. This was not always the case but the Gospels/Bible/Torah have been subjected to far greater historical and theological analysis than the Quran has ever been. That continues today.

The Quran has obviously been studied and studied intensely, but the start point is the infallibility of same not it's origin. That is not questioned by Quranic scholars. Many outside researchers have found different voices in the texts, inconsistencies and historical innacuracies. Mecca not being mentioned at all before the Islamic texts, yet those same texts claim it was a very important centre of trade(the Greeks and others make no mention of it until much later after Islam starts to make it's presence felt in the region). Indeed the Islamic histories admit that there were different versions that were excised, accepted and collated under the first caliph. That was inspired by God. Sound familiar? The difficulty also comes from the lack of secondary texts that exist from the time when compared to the other texts. Indeed a lack of historical data from neighbouring cultures is unusual, given the importance placed by Islamic sources of the movement. The other difficulty is the danger of historical research like this for the researchers.

hahaha this guy doesn't know what he's talking about..

check this link,
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/

[Umar001]

Just abit confused, what is there actually to refute, the guy has jus made some general points, with no evidences. Ask him to be more specific and to make clear each point as he goes along.

[Nerd]

"Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy" (Surah: An-Nisa 4:82)

Why don't you ask him to show you discrepancies in The Holy Quran? If it indeed ain't the word of Allah he would find contradictions and discrepancies in bulk...

[Trumble]

Why don't you ask him to show you discrepancies in The Holy Quran? If it indeed ain't the word of Allah he would find contradictions and discrepancies in bulk...

Why? The works of Plato or Aristotle, say, are nearly a thousand years older than the Qur'an and they have no "contradictions and discrepancies", at least of the sort you mean. They weren't written by Allah. Avoiding contradiction and discrepancy doesn't need God, just a little care.

[vpb]

Why? The works of Plato or Aristotle, say, are nearly a thousand years older than the Qur'an and they have no "contradictions and discrepancies", at least of the sort you mean. They weren't written by Allah. Avoiding contradiction and discrepancy doesn't need God, just a little care.

do u understand the term of contradiciton???

the work of aristotel is not the work of God, and it can cointain contradictions wether at the time of aristotel or now, cuz we was a human and could make errors.
and is the the work of aristotel, preserved word by word exactly as he wrote????

[wilberhum]

do u understand the term of contradiciton???

Do you understand what he said? He never said or implide what you strike at.

[vpb]

Do you understand what he said? He never said or implide what you strike at.

'contradictions' can be independent of time. and I was not addressing the post to you.

[wilberhum]

'contradictions' can be independent of time.

He did not state otherwise.

I was not addressing the post to you.

If you won't want any other's input, try PMing.

[vpb]

Why? The works of Plato or Aristotle, say, are nearly a thousand years older than the Qur'an and they have no "contradictions and discrepancies", at least of the sort you mean. They weren't written by Allah. Avoiding contradiction and discrepancy doesn't need God, just a little care.

read the post again. pay attention to it. you will see why I made my statements.

[Trumble]

read the post again. pay attention to it. you will see why I made my statements.

I don't see why you made them. They make little sense in the context of what I said which I don't think you understood.

Of course man is capable of writing a book full of contradictions and discrepancies. He is also perfectly capable of writing one with none at all... as I said, God is not required for that then or now. In other words, absence of contradictions (which is debatable in this case, anyway) is no proof of divine authorship!

and is the the work of aristotel, preserved word by word exactly as he wrote

As far as we know, yes, to all intents and purposes, although there is no guarantee... we don't have his hand written copy. There is no dispute as to the text, even if there is still plenty as to the merits of his philosophy!

I'm afraid this idea that somehow, out of all 'old' texts, only the Qur'an has managed to survive unscathed from copying errors of any significance, omissions, and revision is a total myth, presumably intended to contrast the Qur'an beneficially with the Bible. There are a considerable number of books far older where neither is the text disputed, nor do " contradictions and discrepancies" abound, or indeed occur at all. The only difference is that they are not claimed to be revelations from God.

[vpb]

I don't see why you made them. They make little sense in the context of what I said which I don't think you understood.

Of course man is capable of writing a book full of contradictions and discrepancies. He is also perfectly capable of writing one with none at all... as I said, God is not required for that then or now. In other words, absence of contradictions (which is debatable in this case, anyway) is no proof of divine authorship!

All humans make mistakes, so no human can claim that their work doesn't contain contradictions.

As far as we know, yes, although there is no guarantee... we don't have his hand written copy. There is no dispute as to the text, even if there is still plenty as to the merits of his philosophy!

majority of the work of Artistotle is lost, also the dialogs of Plato are lost, and also his work were lost later found by alexander.

I'm afraid this idea that somehow, out of all 'old' texts, only the Qur'an has managed to survive unscathed from copying errors of any significance, omissions, and revision is a total myth, presumably intended to contrast the Qur'an beneficially with the Bible. There are a considerable number of books far older where neither is the text disputed, nor do " contradictions and discrepancies" abound, or indeed occur at all. The only difference is that they are not claimed to be revelations from God.

There are no changes made whatsoever in the Qur'an. You just haven't read about how the Qur'an was preserved. if you think it's a myth, than bring your proof and we'll discuss them.

There is no such book from human that have no contradicitions.

[Trumble]

All humans make mistakes, so no human can claim that their work doesn't contain contradictions.

Sometimes I wonder if we are reading the same forum!

Of course all humans can make mistakes, but that doesn't mean they always do. Writing an essay or book without 'contradictions' requires skill, but is perfectly possible for anybody with sufficient skill, let alone intellectual giants of the sort we are talking about. Especially if they had a good proof reader!

majority of the work of Artistotle is lost, also the dialogs of Plato are lost, and also his work were lost later found by alexander.

And your point is? Of course much of their work has been lost, they wrote an awfully long time ago. We are talking about that which wasn't.

There are no changes made whatsoever in the Qur'an. You just haven't read about how the Qur'an was preserved. if you think it's a myth, than bring your proof and we'll discuss them.

Please take the trouble to actually read my post. I did not say it was a myth that the Qur'an was preserved. I said it was a myth that it was the only book of that age, or older, to have been preserved.

There is no such book from human that have no contradicitions.

Rubbish. I'm typing this in a study that has shelves of them.

[vpb]

Of course all humans can make mistakes, but that doesn't mean they always do. Writing an essay or book without 'contradictions' requires skill, but is perfectly possible for anybody with sufficient skill, let alone intellectual giants of the sort we are talking about. Especially if they had a good proof reader!

I disagree.
Skillful people can write good piece of work, but they will for sure contain mistakes. We make mistakes everywhere. but anyways, I can see we have different beliefs.

And your point is? Of course much of their work has been lost, they wrote an awfully long time ago. We are talking about that which wasn't.

and my point is that we don't have their complete work, so you can't judge somebody's work without having his/her complete work. cuz one part might be right, the other part might be wrong.

Please take the trouble to actually read my post. I did not say it was a myth that the Qur'an was preserved. I said it was a myth that it was the only book of that age, or older, to have been preserved.

why , is there any other book that has been preserved , in its entirety, word for word???? any book that has been memorized by millions of people?? written by millions of people?? recited everyday by millions of people???

Rubbish. I'm typing this in a study that has shelves of them.

I can see we look at 'contradiction' in different ways.
ie. if you look at the Qur'an u can't find any contradiction in any field. A book which in one field does not have contradicitons, but the other , it does, I don't take it as a perfect book.

[wilberhum]

why , is there any other book that has been preserved , in its entirety, word for word???? any book that has been memorized by millions of people?? written by millions of people?? recited everyday by millions of people???

Proves nothing. But "written by millions of people"? I thought god wrote it.

[vpb]

Proves nothing.

We were talking about books other than Qur'an that have been preserved word by word exactly as written and given such importance as Qur'an was given. and I don't care whether it proves anything to u or not. there are enough evidences, but bc u reject them, that's different thing.

But "written by millions of people"? I thought god wrote it.

I meant write it on paper.

[Trumble]

We were talking about books other than Qur'an that have been preserved word by word exactly as written and given such importance as Qur'an was given.

Who said anything about "given such importance as Qur'an was given"?!

[vpb]

Who said anything about "given such importance as Qur'an was given"?!

in order something to be preserved it needs to be given importance, otherwise people will mess with it.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


These links may be useful inshaa Allaah:

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...d-usman-r.html


Was the Qur'an compiled from previously revealed scriptures?
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...Misconceptions

[MuhammadRizan]

:sl:

Why? The works of Plato or Aristotle, say, are nearly a thousand years older than the Qur'an and they have no "contradictions and discrepancies", at least of the sort you mean. They weren't written by Allah. Avoiding contradiction and discrepancy doesn't need God, just a little care.

are Plato and Aristotle works Discuss just one topic in their books?or several topics in one book or several topics in several book?

as we know Quran discuss various topics in one books, and some verse contain several topics.

"Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy" (Surah: An-Nisa 4:82)

Since Quran is talking about the way of life as a muslim, lessons from the past ,hereafter life, etc etc...we cannot compare it to phone book, or science book.

Surely we cannot accept Phonebook as guide for us to get a better life:hiding:

this verse is encouraging us to compare Quran with other religous scripture.

:thankyou:

[Zman]

:sl:

Originally Posted by someguy

All this talk of corruptible texts. The fact is they all have undergone changes. It doesn't matter which one one looks at this is the case and that includes the Quran.

These alleged "changes" doesn't mean that the Qur'an has indeed been corrupted.

One glaring example is the translations of the Qur'an from Arabic to other languages. For example into English. When translating, sometimes the exact words in Arabic do not have an English counterpart, therefore, the translation is not precise.

That would lead us to conclude that the English version is not the Qur'an, but a translation of the Qur'an.

The fact that the earliest quranic inscriptions on the dome of the rock(80 odd years after Mohammeds reported death) differ from the texts of today is proof enough.

He needs to provide you with the Ayat and the links he got them from, to backup his claim.

The addition of diacritical dots to the Arabic texts is another issue.

I believe that the Qur'an was already being read in different dialects, during the time when the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was still alive

I think that the dots were added so that later generations would have a guide on how to prounce it, because the First Generation of the Sahabah (RA) were excellent in memorization.

The earliest extant Quran is written in a style from a period many hundreds of years after the chronology attributed to Mohammed. Etc etc.

That's incorrect. The Qur'an was complied in documented format, after the death of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), by one of the 4 Rightly Guided Caliphs.

The primary difference is how the Quran is regarded by it's followers nowadays when compared to the Gospels/Bible/Torah. It is the start and end point. This was not always the case but the Gospels/Bible/Torah have been subjected to far greater historical and theological analysis than the Quran has ever been. That continues today.

There's a big difference between "studying" the Bible, and actually "Altering" it's text, from the original version. Adding/dropping some words, changing words to remain in the confines of "political correctness" of modern times.

The Quran has obviously been studied and studied intensely, but the start point is the infallibility of same not it's origin. That is not questioned by Quranic scholars.

Like he said, Muslim scholars intensely studied and analysed the Qur'an, and it therefore remained as it was intoduced to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) during its Revelation by the Angel Gabrial (AS).

The reason it wasn't "altrered" is due to it being perfect and beyond corruption. Also, this is where faith & belief in God's word and the integrity and honesty of the Prophet Muhammad Passing down God's word, unchanged.

Many outside researchers have found different voices in the texts, inconsistencies and historical innacuracies.

Well, that's on the "Outside scholars." If Muslims scholars through 1400 years of study saw it fit not to change the original text and believed that the information contained within the Qur'an is correct, "outside" scholars views don't really bear any weight on the matter

It is the "outside scholars" who are trying to alter & corrupt the Holy Qur'an, in order to mislead Muslims.

Mecca not being mentioned at all before the Islamic texts, yet those same texts claim it was a very important centre of trade(the Greeks and others make no mention of it until much later after Islam starts to make it's presence felt in the region).

History is always written by the victors.

I'm sure historical events are taught differently in the West than the East.

Also, within the West, different educational systems teach historical events differently.

And, due to historical events undergoing a constant change/updates, new "discovereis" constantly lead to additions/subtractions on a regular basis.

Even science, according to humans isn't perfect. What was held as being undisputed fact, 20 to 30 years down the road, is then proven incorrect.

The difficulty also comes from the lack of secondary texts that exist from the time when compared to the other texts.

Secondary texts? His statement proves that the Quran's wasn't altered, since the first text remains as is.

We have the Qur'an and Hadith. They have been sufficient, complimentary and a great guide to the Muslim Ummah, for over 1400 years...

Indeed a lack of historical data from neighbouring cultures is unusual, given the importance placed by Islamic sources of the movement.

Apparently, he hasn't read all the historical data from neighboring cultures.

Also, if Muslims were to present what neighboring cultures attested to in those day, non-Muslims will continue to cast doubt on its veracity.

Apparently, their aim is to plant the seeds of doubt in our minds, and keep us in that loop, permanently...

[The_Prince]

theres nothing to refute, he brought up no real valid points, heck he doesnt even quote anything for you, just his opinion.

[vpb]

:sl:

heck he doesnt even quote anything for you, just his opinion

as most of non-muslims do.

[shamas]

if thats the case y is the quran proovin the science right many people just converting to islam by just readin listening to the quran and allah SWT said i promise to protect this book from corruptancy

[thirdwatch512]

they had found some manuscripts in yemen in the 70's that are extremely different from the quran today. if you do a little googling you can find some pics of the arabic text compared to that of it today.

as a Christian, i would immedately(and still do) think that the quran is corrupt, because it's different then what it used to be.

BUT, perhaps maybe the person who wrote it just made some mistakes?when you record something, you are always liable of messing up here or there.

now concerning contradictions.. ohh please.

the quran is shorter then the New Testament. it is a very very short book. and so yeah, it's not a huge surprise that there are not a lot of contradictions. the NT has many different authors.. because many people knew Jesus and were inspired by the Holy Spirit. and it has 0 contradictions. of course some muslims will say "yes it does" but with just a little context looking and such, there really is no contradictions. and muslims obviously don't take the Nt as being from God, because it is supposingly corrupt.

also, go look into the buddhist texts.. find me a signle contradiction in buddhist writings! or baha'i, especially. if you add up the baha'i writings, there are over 95 times that of the quran. and so far, people have only found 3 contradictions, and they really are not conradictions!

or open up a harry potter book.. harry potter books are prolly 3 or 4 times the size of quran (usually just a little smaller then Bible)... find me some contradictions! go ahead, look!

it is no surprise what so ever that there are no contradictions in the quran. not a surprise.

[DAWUD_adnan]

You should concider this, NO ONE can make a book the likeness of the Quran in ELOQUENCE and STYLE without contradictions, off course even i can make a children book without contradictions, Trumble and that other guy, please read the verse CORRECTLY. Peace!

[Malaikah]

Harry Potter- that jerky Slytherin character was in his last year of Hogwarts in one of the books (was it book 2?) and yet was still a student in the next book. I think it was the captain of the sport team.

When asked about this, Rowling didn't realise she has made the mistake, laughed it off and joking pretended that he had failed the year.

And how many people proof read Harry Potter? lol no one proof read the Quran, since it was revealed bit by bit.

And that right there would be why I don't take my information about Islam from thirdwatch512.

[Malaikah]

they had found some manuscripts in yemen in the 70's that are extremely different from the quran today. if you do a little googling you can find some pics of the arabic text compared to that of it today.

as a Christian, i would immedately(and still do) think that the quran is corrupt, because it's different then what it used to be.

This is absolute rubbish. How does some Quran found in some place in Yemen, with an unknown author and history, prove that the Quran is changed? Or is that the best proof you have?

Your objectiveness truly shines through. :rollseyes

the quran is shorter then the New Testament. it is a very very short book. and so yeah, it's not a huge surprise that there are not a lot of contradictions. the NT has many different authors.. because many people knew Jesus and were inspired by the Holy Spirit. and it has 0 contradictions. of course some muslims will say "yes it does" but with just a little context looking and such, there really is no contradictions. and muslims obviously don't take the Nt as being from God, because it is supposingly corrupt.

What double standards! So the bible deserves the benefit of the doubt, and "context looking and such", and yet the Quran is not offered such privilege.

[vpb]

they had found some manuscripts in yemen in the 70's that are extremely different from the quran today. if you do a little googling you can find some pics of the arabic text compared to that of it today.

did u add that part 'extremely different' ??? hahahah
please read http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/
before you make such claims.

also I would suggest to read on this thread, since your claim has been made long time before u.
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/1965-variant-korans.html

as a Christian, i would immedately(and still do) think that the quran is corrupt, because it's different then what it used to be.

ok let's rearrange the statement, how about this,
"as an Ignorant, i would immedately(and still do) think that the quran is corrupt, because it's different then what it used to be."

:)

You don't know about the history of Qur'an, and the different dialects it was revealed, that's why it looks corrupted to you :) when in fact it's not. again I am recommending u to read on the two above links :)

BUT, perhaps maybe the person who wrote it just made some mistakes?when you record something, you are always liable of messing up here or there.

what book are u talking here about? the bible? :p

the quran is shorter then the New Testament. it is a very very short book. and so yeah, it's not a huge surprise that there are not a lot of contradictions. the NT has many different authors.. because many people knew Jesus and were inspired by the Holy Spirit. and it has 0 contradictions. of course some muslims will say "yes it does" but with just a little context looking and such, there really is no contradictions. and muslims obviously don't take the Nt as being from God, because it is supposingly corrupt.

first, Qur'an is a 600 pages, now does that give you an excuse to say "there is no contradiction" ????????? :)
second,
even if the book is 10000 pages, from God , it should not have contradictions.
third, bible of course has contradictions cuz it was written by humans.
fourth, Qur'an is 600 pages, but what it holds inside, not all the books of the world would equal it. :)

18:109. Say: "If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out) the words of my Lord, sooner would the ocean be exhausted than would the words of my Lord, even if we added another ocean like it, for its aid."

also, go look into the buddhist texts.. find me a signle contradiction in buddhist writings! or baha'i, especially. if you add up the baha'i writings, there are over 95 times that of the quran. and so far, people have only found 3 contradictions, and they really are not conradictions!

let that book be popular as Bible and Qur'an is, and we would see how good it is :).

or open up a harry potter book.. harry potter books are prolly 3 or 4 times the size of quran (usually just a little smaller then Bible)... find me some contradictions! go ahead, look!

what is harry potter? a kid book?
sci-fi??? which is just read by people??
let the people study it , and we shall see what's inside, even it is just sci-fi. :)

it is no surprise what so ever that there are no contradictions in the quran. not a surprise.

Yes :) , bc Allah swt sent it,

4:82. Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.



so, you know that Qur'an doesn't have any contradictions, but you are giving yourself an excuse for it.



2:23. And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.
2:24. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith.

[thirdwatch512]

malaikah - ok wow, there is one contradiction in the harry potter books.

JK rowling also did not have 23 years and have the advantage of abrogation, and her books, if put together, are prolly 25 times the size of the quran. and one mistake is all you can come up with? what a joke.

here, you want me to show you a few quranic errors?

The Quran confuses Mary (Miriam) the prophet who was the sister of Haron (Aaron) and Moses, and Mary the mother of Jesus without regard for six hundred year time lapse between their existence. When a tribe of the Najran Christians told Mohamed's followers of this mistake, Mohamed replied that people often named their sons after the names of the ancient prophets; therefore, the Aaron mentioned in this verse is not the brother of Moses but another Aaron. Mohamed believed Mary the mother of Jesus had a brother named Aaron. However, the Quran is also mistaken about the name of Mary's father. Surah 66:12 says that her father's name was Imran (Amram), the same name as the father of Moses. (see Exodus 6:20) This is an unbelievable concidence that Mary's father and brother would both be named after the father and son in the family of Moses. Islamic scholars tried to explain that "the sister of Haron (Aaron)" meant "his sister in faith" in other words not indicating a physical familial relation. However, this verse mentions the father, the mother and the brother so the verse in indeed denoting family relationship.
Mariam:28

The Quran claims that the calf worshipped by the Children of Israel in the wilderness during time of Moses was made for them by a Samaritan. However, Samaria, from which this man supposedly came, was not built until hundreds of year after the time of Moses. Moses came in late 13th Century B.C. while the region of Samaria was formed in the 9th Century B.C. The Biblical account of this incident makes no mention of a Samaritan. (see Exodus 32)
taha 85-88
^^ GRAVE mistake. mohammad got the Blessed Mother mixed up with a different Mary from the OT. there are HUNDREDS of years differences between them.

Quranic interpreters agree that the person who argued with Abraham was Nimrod son of Canaan. However, there were twelve generations between Abraham and Noah (see Luke 3:34-36) and four generations between Nimrod and Noah (see Genesis 10:1-8). How could this argument have occurred when the Nimrod lived and died 300 years before Abraham?
Error found in al barqara 258

Confusing Noahs flood with Moses and the plagues
It is known that God punished the Egyptians using Moses by striking them with ten plagues: blood, frogs, lice, flies, the death of livestock, boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and the death of their first born sons. Flood was not one of the plagues. (see Exodus 7-11)
al araf 133

The story of the men sleeping in the cave for "a number of years" is derived from a myth invented by early Christians. It is known as the story of "The Seven Sleepers" which recounts the tale of seven young Christian men who hid in a cave to escape the persecution of the Roman Emperor Decius. They miraculously slept in the cave for 300 years. When they woke up they were astonished at the changes in the world that had happened overnight. The Emperor was now Theodosius who was a Christian. This story can be found in a Latin book called "The Glory of the Martyrs" composed by Gregory of Tours who revived the ancient myth to show his people the ability of God who is above all things. In modern times this story is widely recognized as fictional and is used in Europe to entertain children.
al khaf 8-26

The Quran describes Ishmael as a messenger and a prophet. For whom was Ishmael a prophet? What was his message? The Quran does not offer any explanations or details. The Bible does not declare Ishmael a prophet, instead it is recorded in Genesis that: "He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man. And every man's hand against him." (see Genesis 16:12)
marayam 24

want some more? lol

[Malaikah]

Here check out this link, shows heaps of the mistakes in the harry potter books:

http://www.mugglenet.com/books/mistakes/index.shtml

[thirdwatch512]

once again, when you prove my EXAMPLE wrong, you all of a sudden think that you are right. LOL. this is not the first time you have done that.

[Malaikah]

malaikah - ok wow, there is one contradiction in the harry potter books.

JK rowling also did not have 23 years and have the advantage of abrogation, and her books, if put together, are prolly 25 times the size of the quran. and one mistake is all you can come up with? what a joke.

Jokes is on you: http://www.mugglenet.com/books/mistakes/index.shtml

That should keep you busy for a long time.

The Quran confuses Mary (Miriam) the prophet who was the sister of Haron (Aaron) and Moses, and Mary the mother of Jesus without regard for six hundred year time lapse between their existence. When a tribe of the Najran Christians told Mohamed's followers of this mistake, Mohamed replied that people often named their sons after the names of the ancient prophets; therefore, the Aaron mentioned in this verse is not the brother of Moses but another Aaron. Mohamed believed Mary the mother of Jesus had a brother named Aaron. However, the Quran is also mistaken about the name of Mary's father. Surah 66:12 says that her father's name was Imran (Amram), the same name as the father of Moses. (see Exodus 6:20) This is an unbelievable concidence that Mary's father and brother would both be named after the father and son in the family of Moses. Islamic scholars tried to explain that "the sister of Haron (Aaron)" meant "his sister in faith" in other words not indicating a physical familial relation. However, this verse mentions the father, the mother and the brother so the verse in indeed denoting family relationship.
Mariam:28

That doesn't prove anything. I can't give you a definite answer, but how do you know her dad wasn't called Imran? I'm pretty sure there is not rule saying only one human in history can be called Imran. Is her dads name mentioned in the bible as something else?

Also, what makes you a scholar of the Arabic language, that you could so confidently conclude that? How do you know by daughter of Imran it didn't mean descendent of Imran? (I'm am not saying it does mean that.)

This is not a contradiction because you are comparing it to the bible as if the bible is true, which it is not by Muslim standards.

The Quran claims that the calf worshipped by the Children of Israel in the wilderness during time of Moses was made for them by a Samaritan. However, Samaria, from which this man supposedly came, was not built until hundreds of year after the time of Moses. Moses came in late 13th Century B.C. while the region of Samaria was formed in the 9th Century B.C. The Biblical account of this incident makes no mention of a Samaritan. (see Exodus 32)
taha 85-88
^^ GRAVE mistake. mohammad got the Blessed Mother mixed up with a different Mary from the OT. there are HUNDREDS of years differences between them.

Huh? What does Mary have to do with the Samaritain? And again, you are making the assumption that the dates of the bible are true. That doesn't hold with me since I don't believe the bible to be authentic. Again, this isn't a contradiction in the Quran, this is a contradiction between the bible and the Quran.

Quranic interpreters agree that the person who argued with Abraham was Nimrod son of Canaan. However, there were twelve generations between Abraham and Noah (see Luke 3:34-36) and four generations between Nimrod and Noah (see Genesis 10:1-8). How could this argument have occurred when the Nimrod lived and died 300 years before Abraham?
Error found in al barqara 258

Proves nothing since the dates in the bible can't be taken as fact.

Confusing Noahs flood with Moses and the plagues
It is known that God punished the Egyptians using Moses by striking them with ten plagues: blood, frogs, lice, flies, the death of livestock, boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and the death of their first born sons. Flood was not one of the plagues. (see Exodus 7-11)
al araf 133

Aren't any of your contradictions not based on what the bible says?! Talk about unimpressive!!!!

The story of the men sleeping in the cave for "a number of years" is derived from a myth invented by early Christians. It is known as the story of "The Seven Sleepers" which recounts the tale of seven young Christian men who hid in a cave to escape the persecution of the Roman Emperor Decius. They miraculously slept in the cave for 300 years. When they woke up they were astonished at the changes in the world that had happened overnight. The Emperor was now Theodosius who was a Christian. This story can be found in a Latin book called "The Glory of the Martyrs" composed by Gregory of Tours who revived the ancient myth to show his people the ability of God who is above all things. In modern times this story is widely recognized as fictional and is used in Europe to entertain children.
al khaf 8-26

Just goes to show that Christians can't tell the difference between real stories and myths.

The Quran describes Ishmael as a messenger and a prophet. For whom was Ishmael a prophet? What was his message? The Quran does not offer any explanations or details. The Bible does not declare Ishmael a prophet, instead it is recorded in Genesis that: "He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man. And every man's hand against him." (see Genesis 16:12)
marayam 24

Again, just because the bible said something against the Quran doesn't mean that bible version is the true and the Quran version is false!

want some more? lol

If you show me the Quran contradicting itself, then go ahead, so far the examples have been completely unimpressive!

[Malaikah]

once again, when you prove my EXAMPLE wrong, you all of a sudden think that you are right. LOL. this is not the first time you have done that.

What are you talking about?

[vpb]

JK rowling also did not have 23 years and have the advantage of abrogation, and her books, if put together, are prolly 25 times the size of the quran. and one mistake is all you can come up with? what a joke.

as I said, let them study it, and we'll see. People don't take harry potter book to study for contradictions, they just read to enjoy themselves.

The Quran confuses Mary (Miriam) the prophet who was the sister of Haron (Aaron) and Moses, and Mary the mother of Jesus without regard for six hundred year time lapse between their existence. When a tribe of the Najran Christians told Mohamed's followers of this mistake, Mohamed replied that people often named their sons after the names of the ancient prophets; therefore, the Aaron mentioned in this verse is not the brother of Moses but another Aaron. Mohamed believed Mary the mother of Jesus had a brother named Aaron. However, the Quran is also mistaken about the name of Mary's father. Surah 66:12 says that her father's name was Imran (Amram), the same name as the father of Moses. (see Exodus 6:20) This is an unbelievable concidence that Mary's father and brother would both be named after the father and son in the family of Moses. Islamic scholars tried to explain that "the sister of Haron (Aaron)" meant "his sister in faith" in other words not indicating a physical familial relation. However, this verse mentions the father, the mother and the brother so the verse in indeed denoting family relationship.
Mariam:28

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...rnal/mary.html

The Quran claims that the calf worshipped by the Children of Israel in the wilderness during time of Moses was made for them by a Samaritan. However, Samaria, from which this man supposedly came, was not built until hundreds of year after the time of Moses. Moses came in late 13th Century B.C. while the region of Samaria was formed in the 9th Century B.C. The Biblical account of this incident makes no mention of a Samaritan. (see Exodus 32)
taha 85-88
^^ GRAVE mistake. mohammad got the Blessed Mother mixed up with a different Mary from the OT. there are HUNDREDS of years differences between them.

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...samaritan.html

Quranic interpreters agree that the person who argued with Abraham was Nimrod son of Canaan. However, there were twelve generations between Abraham and Noah (see Luke 3:34-36) and four generations between Nimrod and Noah (see Genesis 10:1-8). How could this argument have occurred when the Nimrod lived and died 300 years before Abraham?
Error found in al barqara 258

are u trying to use bible to verify Qur'an???

Confusing Noahs flood with Moses and the plagues
It is known that God punished the Egyptians using Moses by striking them with ten plagues: blood, frogs, lice, flies, the death of livestock, boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and the death of their first born sons. Flood was not one of the plagues. (see Exodus 7-11)
al araf 133

again, are u trying to use bible to verify Qur'an???

The story of the men sleeping in the cave for "a number of years" is derived from a myth invented by early Christians. It is known as the story of "The Seven Sleepers" which recounts the tale of seven young Christian men who hid in a cave to escape the persecution of the Roman Emperor Decius. They miraculously slept in the cave for 300 years. When they woke up they were astonished at the changes in the world that had happened overnight. The Emperor was now Theodosius who was a Christian. This story can be found in a Latin book called "The Glory of the Martyrs" composed by Gregory of Tours who revived the ancient myth to show his people the ability of God who is above all things. In modern times this story is widely recognized as fictional and is used in Europe to entertain children.
al khaf 8-26

show me the proof, that it is not true, but a myth .

The Quran describes Ishmael as a messenger and a prophet. For whom was Ishmael a prophet? What was his message? The Quran does not offer any explanations or details. The Bible does not declare Ishmael a prophet, instead it is recorded in Genesis that: "He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man. And every man's hand against him." (see Genesis 16:12)
marayam 24

again, are u trying to use bible to verify Qur'an??






here are some useful links on refuting "contradictions in Qur'an"

On Claims, Contradictions, Context & Internal Relationships

Internal Contradictions

External Contradictions

Verses Contradicting Earlier Revelations

Contradictions In The Muslims Tradition versus The Qur'ân

[vpb]

here, you want me to show you a few quranic errors?

it is no surprise what so ever that there are no contradictions in the quran. not a surprise.

why are u changing your words? I think u seem to be angry, u don't know what u'r talking about. ;D;D;D

[- Qatada -]

Just wanted to add this in too:

It turns out that Christians in Najran during the time of the Prophet(P) raised a similar objection and it was answered by the Prophet(P). In Sahih Muslim, the hadith related by Mughirah ibn Shu`bah [5326] says:

When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "O sister of Harun" (i.e. Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah's Messenger(P) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them.

This claim of contradiction is apparently mistaken because it disregards both the Arabic idiom and the context of the verse. In Arabic the word akhun or ukhtun (Underlined with Red colour in the images) carries two meanings.

1. Blood brother or sister and
2. Brotherhood/sisterhood in clan and faith.

The above verse has used the word ukhtun in the second sense. This is not unusual as the Qur'an uses the same idiomatic expression in several earlier verses. In chapter 11 verse 78, Prophet Lot refers to the women folk of his community as my daughters.

And his people came rushing towards him, and they had been long in the habit of practising abominations. He said: "O my people! Here are my daughters: they are purer for you (if ye marry)! Now fear Allah, and cover me not with shame about my guests! Is there not among you a single right-minded man?" [Qur'an 11:78]


http://www.theholybook.org/index.php.../view/9233/12/

It's ironic, i saw this argument by another christian just yesterday. Just the usual copying and pasting i see.


http://www.islamicboard.com/775146-post48.html

[Trumble]

in order something to be preserved it needs to be given importance, otherwise people will mess with it.

I would have thought that, in practice, the opposite is true.

Nobody would deny the Bible is important, yet it is frequently subjected to criticism here on the grounds that people have messed with it in order to ensure it was their own opinion on disputed theological matters that was included. Were it not important, they would not have worried about it, or messed with it.

NO ONE can make a book the likeness of the Quran in ELOQUENCE and STYLE without contradictions

Why not? Generally eloquence and good style assists in avoiding contradictions, not creating them.

[vpb]

I would have thought that, in practice, the opposite is true.

Nobody would deny the Bible is important, yet it is frequently subjected to criticism here on the grounds that people have messed with it in order to ensure it was their own opinion on disputed theological matters that was included. Were it not important, they would not have worried about it, or messed with it.

Well, you think importance was given to Bible, but not really. Bc if it would have been given importance and preserved it, then there wouldn't be needed a Qur'an , but since in our beliefs, bible has been corrupted , Qur'an was sent .

I see the way you see the word "given importance". But that importance was not and is not enough for the bible to be preserved. That's why most of bible contains information which from our view is not correct .
I mean just think of this,
We can't touch Qur'an in arabic without having wudu. . Or we can't recite Qur'an while we are in state of Junub (after sexual relationship). I've been criticized in the mosque , why?, because I was sitting behind the place where Imam prays, and after I read Qur'an, I just placed it on (small tables on the ground that hold Qur'an), and pushed it in front of me, and guess what? they told me to put it somewhere else, not do leave behind someone's back (bum), since it is not a sign of respect for Allah's book to do that.

What i'm trying to show, is just how much we give importance to Qur'an, that for somebody the above examples would look stupid.

Do christians give such importance to bible? I mean just recently in the name of translation they changed all the content of Bible where it talks about Jews, so the verses do not call them as criminals, but describe them as just not good people. A polite descreption of jews. (don't want to offend any christian) How am I supposed to think that importance is given to that book?

Why not? Generally eloquence and good style assists in avoiding contradictions, not creating them.

It's not possible to write something of the Qur'anic style or fashion. These ideas of "I can write something like Qur'an" comes due to the lack of knowledge. It's like when kids say to a real scientist , "yeah I can do it", but the only thing the scientist can do is just laugh, bc he knows the kid will not be able to do such thing. If you would read about the style of Qur'an u would see that it's not possible to come up with something like its style.

please check this link (maybe you have already done it, but anyways i'm pasting it again)

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...acle/ijaz.html

[E'jaazi]

Sorry, couldn't find anything. But I see that others have. Hope they helped.

[asadxyz]

they had found some manuscripts in yemen in the 70's that are extremely different from the quran today. if you do a little googling you can find some pics of the arabic text compared to that of it today.

as a Christian, i would immedately(and still do) think that the quran is corrupt, because it's different then what it used to be.

BUT, perhaps maybe the person who wrote it just made some mistakes?when you record something, you are always liable of messing up here or there.

now concerning contradictions.. ohh please.

the quran is shorter then the New Testament. it is a very very short book. and so yeah, it's not a huge surprise that there are not a lot of contradictions. the NT has many different authors.. because many people knew Jesus and were inspired by the Holy Spirit. and it has 0 contradictions. of course some muslims will say "yes it does" but with just a little context looking and such, there really is no contradictions. and muslims obviously don't take the Nt as being from God, because it is supposingly corrupt.

also, go look into the buddhist texts.. find me a signle contradiction in buddhist writings! or baha'i, especially. if you add up the baha'i writings, there are over 95 times that of the quran. and so far, people have only found 3 contradictions, and they really are not conradictions!

or open up a harry potter book.. harry potter books are prolly 3 or 4 times the size of quran (usually just a little smaller then Bible)... find me some contradictions! go ahead, look!

it is no surprise what so ever that there are no contradictions in the quran. not a surprise.

Peace :
:sl:
How many "Huffaaz" = memorizers of the Bible are there which recite it Every day?
Can you produce just 10 such persons?
The Holy Quran has millions of Huffaaz and there has been in thousands right from the very beginning.The Holy Quran 'a authenticity is not in writing rather being preserved in the "Hearts " of Huffaaz which can neither be altered nor eradicated.
هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ﴿27:64﴾

"Bring your proof if you are truthful.

[ranma1/2]

I guess I should ask why do you think that the Koran is unchanged?
Is it due to man or god? If it is because of god then why did god not keep his message pure with his prior prophets? I have a couple questions.
Do the original texts actually exists or are there just copies? How many times of Chinese whispering occurred before it was written down？ What about the non Koran bits, the hadiths etc..

And now to a posts.


1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:
-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.


How can the message be universal if it cant be translated perfectly? Why must you have scholars tell you what it means? Why do so many disagree with it? And your last sentence seems to be untrue. Please support it.

-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
It does not seem practical and seems illogical in many instances.


-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
No it doesn’t, if it did you would not need hadiths would you? And even those are not.

-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
nope.

-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
It is so clear you have to have scholars tell you what it means.

-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.
Deep? So is shakespear. The bible etc…. deepness does not a holy book make.


2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:
-it is Interactive,
Evidence? Ive read it and got no such interaction.

-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
Except it is not.

-it is Memorizable;
Wow just like the abcs, the bible, shakespear, the princes bride, etc…

-its Language, ..
Wow its soo cool god could not translate it perfectly inot other languages and even modern speakers have to have scholars tell them what it means.

3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:
-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.

The current version perhaps. Do you have the originals? And what about prior to it being written down? How many Chinese whispers did it go through?

-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, ….
This has been discussed to death, but to sum it up. There is no special knowledge in the Koran, any actual knowledge was known at the time. Anything else is reading what is not there.


-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.
Evidence? John smith also had it revealed. Same with jesus. What about the religion of the GFSM? Scientology? Buddhism ect…

[Malaikah]

I guess I should ask why do you think that the Koran is unchanged?
Is it due to man or god? If it is because of god then why did god not keep his message pure with his prior prophets? I have a couple questions.
Do the original texts actually exists or are there just copies? How many times of Chinese whispering occurred before it was written down？

Firstly, God promised to preserve it.

Secondly, preservation can also be seen on the human level in terms of the strictness of the rules used to compiled it. Not to mention the whole thing has been memorised by hundreds if not thousands. The original copy is the one that was complied by the most trusted of the Prophets companions, with a few years of his death. We still have that copy.

So "Chinese whispers" is no problem at all since they would have all learned the Quran from the same source.

Some of the rules used for compilations:

1. There must exists a written copy written down by the Prophets official scribes in front of the Prophet himself.
2. There must be at least two people who can witness to knowing the verse.

I forgot the rest of the conditions.

What about the non Koran bits, the hadiths etc..

Strict rules also applied here. For example, only the witness of well known righteous people would be taken, who are known to be trustworthy, of strong memory etc. They were so strict abut it that one of the compliers once saw a man who he wanted to get a hadith from lie to his horse in order to get it to come to him, and because of that small act he rejected the witness of that man, saying that if he could lie to a horse he could lie to me.

If it is because of god then why did god not keep his message pure with his prior prophets?

Because He never promised to, nor did He intend to.

[ranma1/2]

Hi Malaikah

Firstly, God promised to preserve it.
How do you know this? Because the koran says so? Thats like using the bible to prove the bible.

Secondly, preservation can also be seen on the human level in terms of the strictness of the rules used to compiled it. Not to mention the whole thing has been memorised by hundreds if not thousands. The original copy is the one that was complied by the most trusted of the Prophets companions, with a few years of his death. We still have that copy.

I think my biggest issue is with before it being written down "same issue with the hadiths". Anything could have happened before. And where can you find the original koran? Who can view it? Has it been varified by unbiased sources?


So "Chinese whispers" is no problem at all since they would have all learned the Quran from the same source.

But what about before it was written down?

Some of the rules used for compilations:
1. There must exists a written copy written down by the Prophets official scribes in front of the Prophet himself.
2. There must be at least two people who can witness to knowing the verse.
I forgot the rest of the conditions.

And who was there to verify they verified it? After all it took a while to write this book.





Because He never promised to, nor did He intend to.
So why the change ? And how do you know he didnt lie?

[ranma1/2]

double posts

[syilla]

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...d-meaning.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/campaign...ons-quran.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ery-quran.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...cy-romans.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post559757

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...-word-god.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post553700

I don't need to explain so much about the threads because the titles for each thread are self-explanatory.

[- Qatada -]

Hi Malaikah

How do you know this? Because the koran says so? Thats like using the bible to prove the bible.

You can refer to this link:

The authenticity of the Qur'an and the Bible
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE

I think my biggest issue is with before it being written down "same issue with the hadiths". Anything could have happened before. And where can you find the original koran? Who can view it? Has it been varified by unbiased sources?

In the Topkapi, Museum of Turkey today

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...s/topkapi.html

Check any copy of Qur'an in the world and you'll see that it matches the one stated above exactly; word by word, letter by letter.

But what about before it was written down?

1. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) himself supervised and authenticated the written texts of the Qur’an

Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. – Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) – May Allah be pleased with him who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).


3. Qur’an copied on one common material

The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...tml#post738055

And who was there to verify they verified it? After all it took a while to write this book.

It was the companions of Allaah's Messenger themselves, since they were alive while the Qur'an was compiled.

So why the change ?

It was the duty of the scholars and knowledgable of the Previous nations to preserve their texts since they didn't have to call other people to it anyway. I.e. the revelation was for their specific nation, and another Prophet would be sent to another nation.

However, Allaah sent His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) to all of humanity. This meant that the message had to be spread (yet no-one could be forced to follow Islaam - [Qur'an 2: 256 - There is no compulsion in religion.] So Allaah preserved the Qur'an for us, but our duty would be to convey the message clearly to mankind.

And how do you know he didnt lie?

God only does what Befits His Majesty, so He doesn't lie.




Regards.

[ranma1/2]

Hi Qatada ,
You seem to be missing my point. Yes you have version of the quran that you are told is the original. At best it is the original written form. Prior to that you only have the word of others that what is written is what was said or occured. How many years did it take for it to be written?
And your argument the koran is perfect because god says so is very poor.
what if, god lied. what if god never said it. what if god doesnt exists. what if mohammad lied.. etc... once again your essentially using circular logic. Just like many christians.

"How do you know the bible is true?
Becuase it was written by god.
how do you know this?
the bible says so."

[vpb]

You seem to be missing my point. Yes you have version of the quran that you are told is the original. At best it is the original written form. Prior to that you only have the word of others that what is written is what was said or occured. How many years did it take for it to be written?
And your argument the koran is perfect because god says so is very poor.
what if, god lied. what if god never said it. what if god doesnt exists. what if mohammad lied.. etc... once again your essentially using circular logic. Just like many christians.

Bc we have already showed proof which tell that Muhammed saws is the messenger of Allah (but bc u don't accept them that's a different thing), so after we prove that , whatever Qur'an says, we believe it. There is no point for someone who comes up with new math theory in geometry, to start making independent proof. It's stupidity. Basically the mathematician uses the previous theories proved like Pythagorean theorem, why? bc that was proved once, so u just use it to prove other ones. Same is with what Qur'an or authenticated hadiths say, we have proved Muhammed saws is the messenger of Allah, so whatever he says, our proof is "Muhammed saws said so".

[ranma1/2]

Bc we have already showed proof which tell that Muhammed saws is the messenger of Allah (but bc u don't accept them that's a different thing), so after we prove that , whatever Qur'an says, we believe it. There is no point for someone who comes up with new math theory in geometry, to start making independent proof. It's stupidity. Basically the mathematician uses the previous theories proved like Pythagorean theorem, why? bc that was proved once, so u just use it to prove other ones. Same is with what Qur'an or authenticated hadiths say, we have proved Muhammed saws is the messenger of Allah, so whatever he says, our proof is "Muhammed saws said so".

You have given poor evidence. We want good evidence. Showing that your god exits wouldnt hurt. Providing evidence wouldnt hurt either.

[vpb]

You have given poor evidence. We want good evidence. Showing that your god exits wouldnt hurt. Providing evidence wouldnt hurt either.

We did, and they are not poor. but as I said bc you don't accept them , that is a different things. We showed u proof in every single field of our life, (backing up by scientists, psychologists, historians etc.) u still kept on discarding them. And there is no need to repeat them over again, bc there are many threads in this forum that talk about such thing, u just need to search and read.

Providing evidence wouldnt hurt either.

If you are referring this to evidence to prove God by using your senses, then actually what makes human a degree above animals, is the believing in the unseen, cuz all animals believe only what they can feel/see with their senses, but we humans are more intelligent, and it's shame if you say that we can't say there is a God bc we can't see or hear or touch him.

Qur'an was sent with its all proofs, you just need to search on forum,
but just by looking at the universe, without Qur'an or anything else, your intelligence should be high enough to see that there must be a creator.

If you want anything, PM me.

[Basirah]

We did, and they are not poor.

I assure you, that much of the academic world would not consider it proof, although good points have been brought up in both sides of this debate.

[vpb]

I assure you, that much of the academic world would not consider it proof, although good points have been brought up in both sides of this debate.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you ignorant or have you lost your bicycle?

[Basirah]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Are you ignorant or have you lost your bicycle?

I have no idea what I am talking about dear vpb? Very well, label me as whatever your heart desires. It makes no difference, and certainly does not change any facts.

[ranma1/2]

We did, and they are not poor. ...
We showed u proof in every single field of our life, (backing up by scientists, psychologists, historians etc.) ..

If you are referring this to evidence to prove God by using your senses....

Qur'an was sent with its all proofs, ....

If you want anything, PM me.

You have shown us no acceptable evidence. "stop using the word proof, nothing can be proven except math"

What did you show us? That their are scientitst and others that are islamic? What evidnce is that? That there are people that are scientists and such?

And evidence of your god. Give us some. You will be a rich man if you give some good "proof" instead of using the " i dont understand this so god must exists argument"
Quran no proof of any god. It is evidence that someone wrote it, perhaps many people. It is not a perfect work. It has contradictions and bad science among other things.
Your argument seems to be, i know the quran is the word of god cause it says so.

[vpb]

You have shown us no acceptable evidence. "stop using the word proof, nothing can be proven except math"

What did you show us? That their are scientitst and others that are islamic? What evidnce is that? That there are people that are scientists and such?

And evidnce of your god. Give us some. You will be a rich man if youi give some good proof instead of using the " i dont understand this so god must exists argument"
Quran no proof of any god. It is evidence that someone wrote it, perhaps many people. It is not a prefect work. It has contradictions and bad science among other things.
Your argument seems to be, i know the quran is the word of god cause it says so.

Yep, you're right. :)

[vpb]

I have no idea what I am talking about dear vpb? Very well, label me as whatever your heart desires. It makes no difference, and certainly does not change any facts.

sorry bro, didn't mean to offend u. I later re-read the post and found the meaning different. :)
please forgive me/

[Basirah]

sorry bro, didn't mean to offend u. I later re-read the post and found the meaning different. :)
please forgive me/

No problem, I forgive you.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

Can you please help me refute these claims against the Quran?

u may visit this site , our revert bro
( ex-Christian missionary ) wrote several good posts on Bible & Quran.

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/article...e_vs_Quran.asp

Bible Compared to Quran
Based on transcripts of vairous lectures given by Yusuf Estes & Dr. Gary Miller

http://www.islamtomorrow.com/article...e_vs_Quran.asp


other good links:

The Qur’an is the Accurately Preserved Word of Allah

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503545420&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaEAskTheScholar

Authenticity of the Glorious Qur'an

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545016


The Most Widely Read Book in the World

All Muslims memorize some parts of the Qur’an to recite in their daily ritual prayers

http://www.islamonline.net/english/introducingislam/topic03.shtml

More on Qur'an

• Is the Qur’an Unique? (Live Dialogue)
• The Light of the Heavens and the Earth
• The Story of the Qur’an
• The Scientific Paradigm
• Given in the Qur’an
• Book in the World

[Basirah]

Are we suppose to read about the Christian Bible from Islamic sites? How about reading about the Quran from Agnostic sites? It seems logically off.

[Muslim Woman]

With the name of ALLAH (God Almigthy) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

%%%%%

Are we suppose to read about the Christian Bible from Islamic sites? How about reading about the Quran from Agnostic sites? It seems logically off.

br Yusuf Estete was a Christian missionary
.He , his dad , wife , Chrisitan missionary fried ....all embraced Islam ....Alhamdulillah.

He studied Bible through all his life ...so u can't dismiss his writings on Bible . I visited some non-Muslims sites where they claimed Islam allows homosexuality , Muslms will go to heaven if they are cruel to slaves , Allah is a moon god etc .

Anybody who has minimum knowledge about Islam will understand they are spreading hatred & lies.