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rav
06-27-2007, 09:46 PM
Shalom (Peace), I am sorry for creating this thread but the other one was closed.

Something that surely needs a response is who is the “creator” of G-d? I assume I could write pages on this, but what would be the point? A simple answer is required. I find console in this one.

The answer is actually one that is simpler than most comprehend. G-d did not arrive from anywhere. It is simple mathematics in that all has to have a cause or rationale as to why it is in an essence here - and the reason has to encompass a reason. However, this leads us to a dilemma, because this historical sequence of reasons had to start somewhere - which means, the first "reason", or "first cause" had to have no reason at all.

That is G-d.

Logically, how would an atheist explain this first “cause”? It would undeniably have to be something that had no cause.

Peace to all.
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DAWUD_adnan
06-27-2007, 09:47 PM
nice
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Salaam
06-27-2007, 10:10 PM
kind of makes sence...
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wilberhum
06-27-2007, 10:15 PM
Logically, how would an atheist explain this first “cause”?
Two men were asked, "What is the Square Root of 8?"
One man said "I don't know".
The other one said "4".
Which man was right?
>>>>>>> Just because you have an answer doesn't mean you are right. :skeleton:
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barney
06-27-2007, 10:20 PM
It's obviously the great unknowable. :)

I find terms such as "Always has been and always will be..." just a blatant cop out.

I'm of the opinion that God was a creation of some form of massive energy surge or coelecence.
That brings up what created this energy?

I think the idea of other planes of existance have a great deal to do with this, but how and to what extent is so speculative that at present, it's unassailiable. Our conciousnesses are not developed enough to understand it.
I'd love to get a Bhuddist's veiw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNV9FEKi9FQ
This is the best explaination
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-27-2007, 10:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Two men were asked, "What is the Square Root of 8?"
One man said "I don't know".
The other one said "4".
Which man was right?
>>>>>>> Just because you have an answer doesn't mean you are right. :skeleton:
interesting point, but if the square root can by deduction and analysis most closely be deduced to being 4 (and note due to many aethiests and agnostics i use the words most closely or i would have used definitly!) then why not accept that its four? (I assume that due to no other reason put forth) its the most reasonable and sensible explenation after all right? however if theres no proof at all for it being for, and you see no reason at all to logically conclude that its equal to four, then thats up to you.
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wilberhum
06-27-2007, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
interesting point, but if the square root can by deduction and analysis most closely be deduced to being 4 (and note due to many aethiests and agnostics i use the words most closely or i would have used definitly!) then why not accept that its four? (I assume that due to no other reason put forth) its the most reasonable and sensible explenation after all right? however if theres no proof at all for it being for, and you see no reason at all to logically conclude that its equal to four, then thats up to you.
The inability to grasp a simple thought must be complex problem. :skeleton:
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-27-2007, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
The inability to grasp a simple thought must be complex problem. :skeleton:
tell me about it :rollseyes:

well seeing as you didnt understand then i'll put it simply for you, when all the clear evidence and proof is put fourth and logic clearly agrees with everything and the majority of humanity concur yet you still disagree then isnt it more likely that your the one being blind/hard hearted and stubborn?


Allah guides who he wills, clearly
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barney
06-27-2007, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Two men were asked, "What is the Square Root of 8?"
One man said "I don't know".
The other one said "4".
Which man was right?
>>>>>>> Just because you have an answer doesn't mean you are right. :skeleton:
The man who said 4 was right, the guy who diddnt know diddnt know! :)

(i do see what your getting at though)
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-27-2007, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
The man who said 4 was right, the guy who diddnt know diddnt know! :)

(i do see what your getting at though)
but doesnt it just make sense to accept God when you cant define a beginning to creation? :?
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جوري
06-27-2007, 10:47 PM
To believe G-D was created IMO is equivalent to being a fallacious Atheist only two steps behind in logic... what I mean by that, is, rather than complex life with so-called energy fields that created a being, who in turn developed sentience and motive and a theme for what life would be on this earth, it would be better all together to believe that those same energy forces just developed early life and kept perpetuating it all in the positive direction with perfectly guided chances every time, or fill in the rest of the gaps with whatever the mind can conjure.. then by same token we end up as nothing once the physical portion of us expires... that is if we are indeed composed only as physical beings-- which in turn wouldn't explain things like the consciousness, or dreams, or emotions, memory consolidation... none which are quantifiable or physical yet shared by humanity-- things that we all experience daily, with only one scientific interpretation as rapid firing of neurons or seepage of catecholamine.. Rapid firing of neurons certainly seems generic as it doesn't cover the spectrum of emotions or themes of dreams that the subconscious experiences which differ greatly from one person to the next..

or we can simply accept that there are things beyond our comprehension and will always remain beyond comprehension, not as a mathematical permutation where the best minds of the field, can come together somehow solve or reinterpret. But as a great unknowable, which will not be solved no matter how far the limits pushed!
these two files go into great details from a physics perspective the probabilities of primitive cells complexing to where we are today
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_P...ell_112302.pdf

and the statistical physics of modern evolution
http://arxiv.org/ftp/q-bio/papers/0603/0603005.pdf
Thanks Rav for your explanation and hope you enjoy the two enclosed documents, perhaps one day after you've read them, they can be a topic for discussion
peace!
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barney
06-27-2007, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
but doesnt it just make sense to accept God when you cant define a beginning to creation? :?
I accept God. As the force that created the universe. this might mean that God was a mass of elements and reactions. If so then It brings up the concept of was that force sentinent? As we know sentinece?

The universe is large enough with trillions of planets and coincidence isnt out of the question.

What I can't see is this force interacting in any meaningful way as a response to humanitys desperate search for it. We are orphaned kids with no record libary to search.
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Trumble
06-27-2007, 11:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by rav
The answer is actually one that is simpler than most comprehend. G-d did not arrive from anywhere. It is simple mathematics in that all has to have a cause or rationale as to why it is in an essence here - and the reason has to encompass a reason. However, this leads us to a dilemma, because this historical sequence of reasons had to start somewhere - which means, the first "reason", or "first cause" had to have no reason at all.

That is G-d.

Logically, how would an atheist explain this first “cause”? It would undeniably have to be something that had no cause.
'Logically', he would start out by pointing out the unjustified (in that their truth cannot be demonstrated without assuming what you are trying to prove) assumptions in that argument.

Which are;

because this historical sequence of reasons had to start somewhere
Why? Demonstrate that it is not an infinite regression.

That is G-d
Accepting, purely for sake of argument (I don't otherwise) that there was a first cause, why should it be God? Unless, of course you define God that way, in which case why should we ascribe the characteristics usually asssociated with God to it? (*) Why could it not be a space-time singularity or such? Or why could the 'first cause' not be what created God? Or what created that which created God? Not saying it was, but start throwing the word 'logically' about and that's what you'll get back.

The good old cosmological argument (for such we have here) has been around a very, very long time and 'proves' nothing. Neither do any of its refutations, come to that. :)


(*) A little bit of proper logic for you. God is usually presumed to be both omnipotent and omniscient. But if He is omniscient, then He must know what actions He is going to take in future using his omnipotence. If He knows, that means He can't change His mind - in which case he can't be omnipotent! So, as omniscience and omnipotence are mutually exclusive, which does God actually have?
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جوري
06-27-2007, 11:14 PM
Loads of books from Abrahamic religions professing the same one G-D, I suspect will never be enough.... really reminds me of sura 74, I believe addresses the psychology of man.. especially the verse

بَلْ يُرِيدُ كُلُّ امْرِئٍ مِّنْهُمْ أَن يُؤْتَى صُحُفًا مُّنَشَّرَةً {52}
[Pickthal 74:52] Nay, but everyone of them desireth that he should be given open scrolls (from
Allah).

as well as from sura 2
هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِيَهُمُ اللّهُ فِي ظُلَلٍ مِّنَ الْغَمَامِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةُ وَقُضِيَ الأَمْرُ وَإِلَى اللّهِ تُرْجَعُ الأمُورُ {210}
[Pickthal 2:210] Wait they for naught else than that Allah should come unto them in the shadows of the clouds with the angels?

Sobhan Allah
:w:
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rav
06-28-2007, 12:24 AM
Shalom,

'Logically', he would start out by pointing out the unjustified (in that their truth cannot be demonstrated without assuming what you are trying to prove) assumptions in that argument.

Why? Demonstrate that it is not an infinite regression.
Trumble, you’re over complicating and misinterpreting a very simple matter. In no way, is my original post proof of G-d’s existence. What it is, is merely an example of how it is completely logical to assume that G-d does not have a creator. If you want to debate away your life on if there was a “first cause” your welcome to do so on your own. However, this is not the point, nor is it even part of the topic this thread was designed for.

In my observation, relying on “infinite regression” is a convenient excuse, to a huge problem you have. The problem is that you do not have the answer. You rule out G-d so quickly, yet you rely on what is basically, although a bit different, akin to circular reasoning. Have your opinion, but you let the entire point of the original post fly right over your head.

The logic is first “everything has to have a creator” and then, when any single point is made it is automatically “infinite regression”. I assume, you know that Judaism holds that G-d is everything and created everything, and in an essence, dualism is rejected more for the belief of monism. Therefore, since G-d is infinite, why can the essence of G-d, which is infinite, not be the source of the universe which you cite above?

Accepting, purely for sake of argument (I don't otherwise) that there was a first cause, why should it be God?

Unless, of course you define God that way, in which case why should we ascribe the characteristics usually asssociated with God to it? (*) Why could it not be a space-time singularity or such? Or why could the 'first cause' not be what created God? Or what created that which created God? Not saying it was, but start throwing the word 'logically' about and that's what you'll get back.
You’re under the assumption that this argument tries to prove G-d’s existence, it does not, it proves what a logic fallacy it is to make the argument “who created the creator”, when at the same time rejecting any argument relating to G-d and explaining G-d in non-human terms, such as infinity. This has nothing to do with “does G-d exist” it has everything to do with the fallacious arguments that people will throw at a theist such as “who created the creator”. Than when you step back into the comfort of “infinite regression” a whole new area of discussion is opened up. Why can G-d not be infinite and the cause of this? Why can G-d have no always been their? What makes infinite regression anymore of a proven theory? It is a cop-out in my humble opinion.

Your theory of infinite regression I assume is a great way out of a very difficult ideology to explain.

(*) A little bit of proper logic for you. God is usually presumed to be both omnipotent and omniscient. But if He is omniscient, then He must know what actions He is going to take in future using his omnipotence. If He knows, that means He can't change His mind - in which case he can't be omnipotent! So, as omniscience and omnipotence are mutually exclusive, which does God actually have?
You’re treating G-d like a human in terms of “logic”. What you’re doing is basically creating a straw man and beating it down. I would suggest you read up on the many Kabalistic explanations of creation and the essence of G-d before you use such logic and apply it to G-d. A very small bit of info on some basic concepts:

Kabbalah teaches that God is neither matter nor spirit. Rather God is the creator of both, but is himself neither. But if God is so different from his creation, how can there be any interaction between the Creator and the created?

This question prompted Kabbalists to envision two aspects of God, (a) God himself, who in the end is unknowable, and (b) the revealed aspect of God that created the universe, preserves the universe, and interacts with mankind. Kabbalists speak of the first aspect of God as Ein Sof (אין סוף); this is translated as "the infinite", "endless", or "that which has no limits". In this view, nothing can be said about this aspect of God. This aspect of God is impersonal. The second aspect of divine emanations, however, is at least partially accessible to human thought. Kabbalists believe that these two aspects are not contradictory but, through the mechanism of progressive emanation, complement one another. See Divine simplicity; Tzimtzum. The structure of these emanations have been characterized in various ways: Four "worlds" (Azilut, Yitzirah, Beriyah, and Asiyah), Sefirot, or Partzufim ("faces"). Later systems harmonize these models.

Some Kabbalistic scholars, such as Moses ben Jacob Cordovero, believe that all things are linked to God through these emanations, making us all part of one great chain of being. Others, such as Schneur Zalman of Liadi (founder of Lubavitch [Chabad] Hasidism), hold that God is all that really exists; all else is completely undifferentiated from God's perspective.

If improperly explained, such views can be interpreted as panentheism or pantheism. In truth, according to this philosophy, God's existence is higher than anything that this world can express, yet He includes all things of this world down to the finest detail in such a perfect unity that His creation of the world effected no change in Him whatsoever. This paradox is dealt with at length in the Chabad Chassidic texts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

I would recommend reading the Zohar, maybe than the Tanya. It cannot be explained in this thread obviously because it is esoteric and incredibly complex to clarify to someone who is not familiar with it. Nevertheless, with your theory of infinite regression can you oppose with any logic used when saying that G-d was always there because he created “creation” and therefore, he is infinite in every way? It is basically the exact same logic you are using. In my mind - infinite regression is merely an evasion.

Take care Trumble, because I am very busy so I have no time to play around with such deep concepts right now on an Islamic message board, nor any message board. It takes to time and to much energy to reason with someone who applies foreign concepts to the actual concept of G-d that Judaism holds.
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barney
06-28-2007, 12:30 AM
No point in trying to understand anything outside of human logic. You would have to not be human.(and henceforth not have access to a computor to talk about it!

The real question is, is God understandable through human logic.
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IbnAbdulHakim
06-28-2007, 12:33 AM
i think we can recognise God and understand his commands, but understanding Him in all his majesty is completely different and that is something i really doubt we can do..
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
06-28-2007, 03:36 AM
^^Roger :D

Loads of books from Abrahamic religions professing the same one G-D, I suspect will never be enough.... really reminds me of sura 74, I believe addresses the psychology of man.. especially the verse


بَلْ يُرِيدُ كُلُّ امْرِئٍ مِّنْهُمْ أَن يُؤْتَى صُحُفًا مُّنَشَّرَةً {52}
[Pickthal 74:52] Nay, but everyone of them desireth that he should be given open scrolls (from
Allah).

as well as from sura 2

هَلْ يَنظُرُونَ إِلاَّ أَن يَأْتِيَهُمُ اللّهُ فِي ظُلَلٍ مِّنَ الْغَمَامِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةُ وَقُضِيَ الأَمْرُ وَإِلَى اللّهِ تُرْجَعُ الأمُورُ {210}
[Pickthal 2:210] Wait they for naught else than that Allah should come unto them in the shadows of the clouds with the angels?

Sobhan Allah
Those few verses really jus sum it up. SubhanAllah!
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Trumble
06-28-2007, 07:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by rav
Trumble, you’re over complicating and misinterpreting a very simple matter. In no way, is my original post proof of G-d’s existence. What it is, is merely an example of how it is completely logical to assume that G-d does not have a creator. If you want to debate away your life on if there was a “first cause” your welcome to do so on your own. However, this is not the point, nor is it even part of the topic this thread was designed for.
My post explains why it is not "completely logical to assume that G-d does not have a creator". It also provides a specific answer to your specific question, which was;

How would an atheist explain this first “cause”? It would undeniably have to be something that had no cause.
for which I claim no originality at all, the arguments have been around far longer than either of us. Your answer is "simpler than most comprehend" because it has logical gaps (and you are the one who invoked logic) you could drive a bus through. The atheist is under no obligation to accept your assumption there WAS a 'first cause'; neither need he accept your conclusion that it must be God.

In my observation, relying on “infinite regression” is a convenient excuse, to a huge problem you have. The problem is that you do not have the answer. You rule out G-d so quickly, yet you rely on what is basically, although a bit different, akin to circular reasoning. Have your opinion, but you let the entire point of the original post fly right over your head.
I did not rule out God at all, let alone "so quickly" and neither do I have a 'problem'. I am not 'relying' on infinite regression any more than you are relying on there not being one. I don't have to.. I merely pointed out that the argument you presented assumes it is not a possibility; without any justification whatsoever.

You’re under the assumption that this argument tries to prove G-d’s existence, it does not, it proves what a logic fallacy it is to make the argument “who created the creator”, when at the same time rejecting any argument relating to G-d and explaining G-d in non-human terms, such as infinity. This has nothing to do with “does G-d exist” it has everything to do with the fallacious arguments that people will throw at a theist such as “who created the creator”.”.
It has everything to do with it. Your first post presents one of the standard arguments for the existence of God - the cosmological argument. Go look it up. There is no point in pretending it is actually something else. 'Arguments that people will throw at a theist such as “who created the creator"' are arguments against the existence of God.

Than when you step back into the comfort of “infinite regression” a whole new area of discussion is opened up. Why can G-d not be infinite and the cause of this? Why can G-d have no always been their? What makes infinite regression anymore of a proven theory? It is a cop-out in my humble opinion.
It is on your part, certainly. Before you can justify your original assumption (there is a "first cause") and conclusion (it is God) you need to answer them. Nobody has claimed an infinite regression is any more of a 'proven theory'.. but in terms of logic they don't have to! It is sufficient to expose the fundamental flaws in the argument. Logic does not use opinion or speculation, nor does it weigh one unprovable hypothesis against another.


You’re treating G-d like a human in terms of “logic”. What you’re doing is basically creating a straw man and beating it down.
As I said it is you that decided to invoke "logic", not me! :)
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rav
06-28-2007, 08:42 PM
Shalom Trumble,

Your remarks on the “cosmological argument” prove my precise point. You have shown that neither theory can be proven nor have I ever even made the case for mine to be anymore scientifically plausible. My post was basically showing the mathematics of creation of the universe. That everything must have a first cause or you can say it was infinite regression. My belief is that the first cause is in its own way infinite regression, because G-d is infinite. So the “first cause” was something from an infinite source. My question at the end was rhetorical but I predicted the exact answer you presented me with.

The argument of infinite regression does not contradict anything that has to do with a first cause by G-d - because G-d is indeed infinite, meaning He was never created. The logical tangle we have gotten ourselves into is merely an example of how “illogical” it is for any scientist to rule out G-d and instead put their faith on something like infinite regression. They are in the end the same as believers in such a regard. But that wasn’t the entire point of the original post. The original post was to show that an attack on a theist using the so called “logic” of who created G-d, is what I would label “illogical”, in that fact that infinity is used to explain so much.

Now, I must say goodbye.
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