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Zman
06-28-2007, 01:38 AM
:sl:/Peace To All

The Real History Of Islam and The West

By: Karen Armstrong IslamiCity*
6/27/2007
IslamiCity

On the eve of the second Christian millennium, the Crusaders massacred some thirty thousand Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem, turning the thriving Islamic holy city into a stinking charnel house.

For at least five months the valleys and ditches around the city were filled with putrefying corpses, which were too numerous for the small number of Crusaders who remained behind after the expedition to clear away, and a stench hung over Jerusalem, where the three religions of Abraham had been able to coexist in relative harmony under Islamic rule for nearly five hundred years.

This was the Muslims' first experience of the Christian West, as it pulled itself out of the dark age that had descended after the collapse of the Roman Empire in the fifth century, and fought its way back on the international scene. The Muslims suffered from the Crusaders, but were not long incommoded by their presence.

In 1187 Saladin was able to recapture Jerusalem for Islam and though the Crusaders hung on in the Near East for another century, they seemed an unimportant passing episode in the long Islamic history of the region.

Most of the inhabitants of Islamdon were entirely unaffected by the Crusades and remained uninterested in western Europe, which, despite its dramatic cultural advance during the crusading period, still lagged behind the Muslim world.

Europeans did not forget the Crusades, however, nor could they ignore the Dar al -Islam, which, as the years went by, seemed to rule the entire globe.

Ever since the Crusades, the people of Western Christendom developed a stereotypical and distorted image of Islam, which, they regarded as the enemy of decent civilization. The prejudice became entwined with European fantasies about Jews, the other victims of the Crusaders, and often reflected buried worry about the conduct of Christians.

It was, for example, during the Crusades, when it was Christians who had instigated a series of brutal holy wars against the Muslim world, that Islam was described by the learned scholar-monks of Europe as an inherently violent and intolerant faith, which had only been able to establish itself by the sword.

The myth of the supposed fanatical intolerance of Islam has become one of the received ideas of the West. As the millennium drew to a close, however, some Muslims seemed to live up to this Western perception, and, for the first time, have made sacred violence a cardinal Islamic duty.

These fundamentalists often call Western colonialism and post-colonial Western imperialism al-Salibiyyh: the Crusade. The colonial crusade has been less violent but its impact has been more devastating than the medieval holy wars.

The powerful Muslim world has been reduced to a dependent bloc, and Muslim society has been gravely dislocated in the course of an accelerated modernization programme.

All over the world, as we have seen, people in all the major faiths have reeled under the impact of Western modernity, and have produced the embattled and frequently intolerant religiosity that we call fundamentalism.

As they struggle to rectify what they see as the damaging effects of modern secular culture, fundamentalists fight back and, in the process, they depart from the core values of compassion, justice and benevolence that characterize all the world faiths, including Islam.

Religion, like any other human activity, is often abused, but at its best it helps human beings to cultivate a sense of the sacred inviolability of each individual, and thus to mitigate the murderous violence to which our species is tragically prone.

Religion has committed atrocities in the past, but in its brief history secularism has proved that it can be just as violent. As we have seen, secular aggression and persecution have often led to a heightening of religious intolerance and hatred.

This became tragically clear in Algeria in 1992. During the religious revival of the 1970s, the Islamic Salvation Front (FIS) challenged the hegemony of the secular nationalist party, the National Liberation Front (FLN), which had led the revolution against French colonial rule in 1954, and had established a socialist government in the country in 1962.

The Algerian revolution against France had been an inspiration to Arabs and Muslims who were also struggling to gain independence from Europe.

The FLN was similar to the other secular and socialist governments in the Middle East at this time, which had relegated Islam to the private sphere, on the Western pattern. By the 1970s, however, people all over the Muslim world were becoming dissatisfied with these secularist ideologies which had not delivered what they had promised.

Abbas Madani, one of the founding members of FIS, wanted to create an Islamic political ideology for the modern world; Ali ibn Hajj, the imam of a mosque in a poor neighborhood in Algiers, led a more radical wing of FIS.

Slowly, FIS began to build its own mosques, without getting permission from the government; it took root in the Muslim community in France, where workers demanded places of prayer in the factories and offices, incurring the wrath of the right-wing party led by Jean-Marie Le Pen.

By the 1980s, Algeria was in the grip of an economic crisis. FLN had set the country on the path to democracy and statehood, but over the years it had become corrupt. The old garde were reluctant to attempt more democratic reforms. There had been a population explosion in Algeria; most of its thirty million inhabitants were under thirty, many were unemployed, and there was an acute housing shortage. There were riots. Frustrated with the stagnation and ineptitude of the FLN, the young wanted something new and turned to the Islamic parties.

In June 1990 the FIS scored major victories in the local elections, especially in the urban areas. FIS activists were mostly young, idealistic and well educated; they were known to be honest and efficient in government, though they were dogmatic and conservative in some areas, such as their insistence upon traditional Islamic dress for women.

But the FIS was not anti-Western. Leaders spoke of encouraging links with the European Union and fresh Western investment.

After the electoral victories at the local level, they seemed certain to succeed in the legislative elections that were scheduled for 1992.There was to be no Islamic government in Algeria, however.
The military staged a coup, ousted the liberal FLN President Benjedid (who had promised democratic reforms), suppressed FIS, and threw its leaders into prison. Had elections been prevented in such a violent and unconstitutional manner in Iran and Pakistan, there would have been an outcry in the West Such a coup would have been seen as an example of Islam's supposedly endemic aversion to democracy and its basic incompatibility with the modern world.

But because it was an Islamic government that had been thwarted by the coup, there was jubilation in the Western press.

Algeria had been saved from the Islamic menace; the bars, casinos an discotheques of Algiers had been spared; and in some mysterious way, this undemocratic action had made Algeria safe for democracy.

The French government threw its support behind the new hardline FLN of President Liamine Zeroual and strengthened his resolve to hold no further dialogue with FIS.
Not surprisingly, the Muslim world was shocked by this fresh instance of Western double standards.

The result was tragically predictable.
Pushed outside the due processes of law, outraged, and despairing of justice, the more radical members of FIS broke away to form a guerrilla organization, the Armed Islamic Group (GIA), and began terror campaign in the mountainous regions south of Algiers.
There were massacres, in which the population of entire villages was killed. Journalists and intellectuals, secular and religious, were also targeted.
It was generally assumed that the Islamists were wholly responsible for these atrocities, but gradually questions were asked which pointed to the fact that some elements in the Algerian military forces not only acquiesced but also participated in the killing to discredit the GIA.
There was now a ghastly stalemate. Both FLN and FIS were torn apart by an internal feud between the pragmatists, who wanted a solution, and the hardliners, who refused to negotiate.

The violence of the initial coup to stop the elections had led to an outright war between the religious and secularists.

In January 1995 the Roman Catholic Church helped to organize a meeting in Rome to bring the two sides together, but Zeroual's government refused to participate. A golden opportunity had been lost.

There was more Islamic terror, and a constitutional referendum banned all religious political parties.The tragic case of Algeria must not become a paradigm for the future.
Suppression and coercion had helped to push a disgruntled Muslim minority into a violence that offends every central tenet of Islam.

An aggressive secularism had resulted in a religiosity that was a travesty of true faith.

The incident further tarnished the notion of democracy, which the West is so anxious to promote, but which, it appeared, had limits, if the democratic process might lead to the establishment of an elected Islamic government.

The people of Europe and the United States were shown to be ignorant about the various parties and groups within the Islamic world.
The moderate FIS was equated with the most violent fundamentalist groups and was associated in the Western mind with the violence, illegality and anti-democratic behavior that had this time been displayed by the secularists in the FLN.
But whether the West likes it or not, the initial success of he FIS in the local elections showed that the people wanted some form of Islamic government.


It passed a clear message to Egypt, Morocco and Tunisia, where secularist governments had long been aware of the growing religiosity of their countries.
In the middle of the twentieth century, secularism had been dominant, and Islam was thought to be irredeemably passe.
Now any secularist government in the Middle East was uncomfortably aware that if there were truly democratic elections, an Islamic government might well come to power.
In Egypt, for example, Islam is as popular as Nasserism was in 1950s. Islamic dress is ubiquitous and, since Mubarak's government is secularist, is clearly voluntarily assumed.

Even secularist Turkey, recent polls showed that some 70 percent the population claimed to be devout, and that 20 percent prayed five times a day.

People are turning to the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan, and Palestinians are looking to Mujamah, while the PLO, which in the 1960s carried all before it, is now looking cumbersome, corrupt and out of date.

In the republics of Central Asia, Muslims are rediscovering their religion after decades of Soviet oppression.
People have tried the secularist ideologies, which have worked so successfully in Western countries where they are on home ground.

Increasingly, Muslims want their governments to conform more closely to the Islamic norm.The precise form that this will take is not yet clear.

In Egypt it seems that a majority of Muslims would like to see the Shariah as the law of the land, whereas in Turkey only 3 percent want this.
Even in Egypt, however, some of the ulama are aware that the problems of transforming the Shariah, an agrarian law code, to the very different conditions of modernity will be extreme.

Rashid Rida had been aware of this as early as the 1930s. But that is not to say that it cannot be done.
It is not true that Muslims are now uniformly filled with hatred of the West.

In the early stages of modernization, many leading thinkers were infatuated with European culture, and by the end of the twentieth century some of the most eminent and influential Muslim thinkers were now, reaching out to the West again.
President Khatami of Iran is only one example of this trend. So is the Iranian intellectual Abdolkarim Sorush, who held important posts in Khomeini's government, and though he is often harried by the more conservative mujtahids, he strongly influences those in power.

Sorush admires Khomeini, but has moved beyond him. He maintains that Iranians now have three identities: preIslamic, Islamic and Western, which they must try to reconcile.
Sorush rejects the secularism of the West and believes that human beings will always need spirituality, but advises Iranians to study the modern sciences, while holding on to Shii tradition.

Islam must develop its fiqh, so as to accommodate the modern industrial world, and evolve a philosophy of civil rights and an economic theory capable of holding its own in the twenty-first century.

Sunni thinkers have come to similar conclusions.
Western hostility towards Islam springs from ignorance, Rashid al' Ghannouchi, the leader of the exiled Renaissance Party in Tunisia, believes.

It also springs from a bad experience of Christianity, which did stifle thought and creativity.
He describes himself as a "democratic Islamist" and sees no incompatibility between Islam and democracy, but he rejects the secularism of the West, because the human being cannot be so divided and fragmented.

The Muslim ideal of tawhid rejects the duality of body and spirit, intellect and spirituality, men and women, morality and the economy, East and West.

Muslims want modernity, but not one that has been imposed upon them by America, Britain or France.
Muslims admire the efficiency and beautiful technology of the West; they are fascinated by the way a regime can be changed in the West without bloodshed.

But when Muslims look at Western society, they see no light, no heart and no spirituality.
They want to hold on to their own religious and moral traditions and, at the same time, to try to incorporate some of the best aspects of Western civilization.
Yusuf Abdallah al-Qaradawi, a gradate of al-Azhar, and a Muslim Brother, who is currently the director of the Centre for Sunnah and Sirah at the University of Qatar, takes a similar line.

He believes in moderation, and is convinced that the bigotry that has recently appeared in the Muslim world will impoverish people by depriving them of the insights and visions of other human beings.
The Prophet Muhammad said that he had come to bring a "Middle Way" of religious life that shunned extremes, and Qaradawi thinks that the current extremism in some quarters of the Islamic world is alien to the Muslim spirit and will not last.

Islam is a religion of peace, as the Prophet had shown when he made an unpopular treaty with the Quraysh at Hudaybiyyah, a feat which the Quran calls "a great victory."
...
The West, he insists, must learn to recognize the Muslims' right to live their religion and, if they choose, to incorporate the Islamic ideal in their polity.

They have to appreciate that there is more than one way of life.

Variety benefits the whole world.

God gave human beings the right and ability to choose, and some may, opt for a religious way of life - including an Islamic state - while others prefer the secular ideal."

It is better for the West that Muslims should be religious," Qaradawi argues, "hold to their religion, and try to be moral."'
He raises an important point.

Many Western people are also becoming uncomfortable about the absence of spirituality in their lives.

They do not necessarily want to return to pre-modern religious lifestyles or to conventionally institutional faith.

But there is a growing appreciation that, at its best, religion has helped human beings to cultivate deceit values.
Islam kept the notions of social justice, equality, tolerance and practical compassion in the forefront of the Muslim conscience for centuries.

Muslims did not always live up to these ideals and frequently found difficulty in incarnating them in their social and political institutions.

But the struggle to achieve this was for centuries the mainspring of Islamic spirituality.

Western people must become aware that it is in their interests too that Islam remains healthy and strong.

The West has not been wholly responsible for the extreme forms of Islam, which have cultivated a violence that violates the most sacred canons of religion.

But the West has certainly contributed to this development and, to assuage the fear and despair that lies at the root of all fundamentalist vision, should cultivate a more accurate appreciation of Islam in the third Christian millennium.
Excerpted from the book "Islam - A Short History" by Karen Armstrong.

Via:
http://freethoughtmanifesto.blogspot...-and-west.html
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Keltoi
06-28-2007, 03:18 AM
I've read alot of Karen Armstrong's work, and while she does share alot of useful information, she is also fairly heavily tilted towards the Islamic point of view. When I read her books the anti-Western bias is so heavy it is hard to overlook.

As for the specific points in the article, it suffers from the same one-sided slant that characterizes all of her books. There isn't really anything wrong with that, as long as you learn to expect a one-sided view. I'm also a little weary of her connecting everything to the First Crusade, and her deeply flawed description of European and Islamic relations prior to the First Crusade.
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.:Umniyah:.
06-28-2007, 03:31 AM
Just a note before the choas starts. This is the GENERAL section okay? which means I don't want, nor need to see any fired debates over this article. If you don't like it, don't read it and move on. Simple. If you don't like it and chose to still read it, thats cool to, but please dont respond with anything that shall eventually turn into this thread being closed.
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barney
06-28-2007, 03:40 AM
Agree with the christian. Massivly slanted, full of inaccuracys and holes.

I've read her book Short history of Islam. It dosnt even try to show balance.

in the example above it says the first crusade was the Muslims first experience of the west. Not Spain, not the Byzantines, Not Sicily, not France.

Suddenly, this mob appeared from nowhere. Right.
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Zman
06-28-2007, 02:53 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

I thought that she was fair and balanced. Both sides share responsiblitiy in the current developments...
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Woodrow
06-28-2007, 09:27 PM
Reopened thread
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wilberhum
06-28-2007, 09:44 PM
I would never defend the Crusades. They are a stain on the Christian Soul.

But it is always interesting when some one stats at a point that supports there bias.
I mean, why bother to mention the Islamic conquest of Europe.
After all that doesn’t support her bias.
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Keltoi
06-28-2007, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
I would never defend the Crusades. They are a stain on the Christian Soul.

But it is always interesting when some one stats at a point that supports there bias.
I mean, why bother to mention the Islamic conquest of Europe.
After all that doesn’t support her bias.
Pope Urban carries most of the blame for the First Crusade, followed closely by the nobles and lords who commanded it. Nobody is trying to "defend" the Crusades, at least on the issue of the amount of bloodshed and savagery it produced, but Karen Armstrong paints Europe with a black brush, while describing early Islamic civilization as a peaceful center of enlightenment and harmony until the bloodsoaked European barbarians ravage the land. That is deeply misleading characterization, as the plight of the Byzantine Empire and the Turkish conquests are completely overlooked. Europeans were well aware of the threat posed by the Turks, but it took a Pope to galvanize the Europeans into a united military front, using religion and anti-Islamic propoganda to build anger and hatred.

I can't prove this with documentation or anything, but I honestly believe that Pope Urban and the Byzantine Emperor had a goal in mind with the First Crusade, and I don't think liberating the Holy Sepulchre was high on the list.
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barney
06-28-2007, 09:57 PM
Thanks for reopening.

Islam: A short History, (despite in the title saying..short history..) is IMO, way too breif on the Prophets life, it runs to about 4 pages.

The Example I chose above is demonstrative of Armstrongs approach.
Muslims had conquored their way all through the middle east North Africa and up into Spain. They knew who westerners were and to say that their first encounter was when a Army decended on Jerusalam is either Deliberately lying (likely) or she knows nothing about history at all. (less likely).



636 defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.


638 conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.
.

639—642 conquer Egypt.

641 control Syria and Palestine.

643—707 conquer North Africa.


644—650 conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire



705 Abd al—Malik restores Umayyad rule.

710—713 Muslim conquer the lower Indus Valley.

711—713 Muslim conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus.
719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids

756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids


789 Rise of Idrisid amirs in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty in Tunisia

807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

809 Aghlabids conquer Sardinia, Italy

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

837—901 Aghlabids conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; occupy Sicily, Sardinia

928—969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)

937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem

969 Fatimids conquer Egypt and found Cairo


973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

1003 the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed


1012 Beginning of al—Hakim's decrees against Jews and Christians

1050 Creation of Almoravid movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.



1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia



1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks

1075 Seljuks capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia

1076 Almoravids (see 1050) conquer western Ghana

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies

1086 Almoravids (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca

1090—1091 Almoravids occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

For 400 years, thats four hundred years, Islam and the west had been clashing. the above are Muslim attacks on the west. During this time a similar list of border-raids and banditry instigated by the west can be compiled.

You simply cant get to France and not meet a frenchman...(Oh ...would that you could :) ) Armstrong portrays a situation of a peaceful gentle Islam minding it's own buisness and then these barbaric (and they were) hordes appear. This shows how much weight her bigoted ideas carry, if you want to read a "True" history of islam.
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Amadeus85
06-28-2007, 10:03 PM
Karen Armstrong left christianity and embraced islam. Neofits are very often more islamic than other muslims. Armstrong wants to show how islamic she is. Unfortunately , for her being a good muslim means showing that Europe was always barbaric and cruel and muslims were innocent victims. But everyone who knows history knows that it is not true. Just lets remind ourselves muslim occupation of Spain, Greece, Serbia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria.
I think that miss Armstrong is as fair and balanced in talking about european civilization, as Ayaan Hirsi Ali is fair and balanced in talking about Islam.
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Amadeus85
06-28-2007, 10:11 PM
Good that you reminded those facts Barney. Crusades hapenned after 400 years of muslim invasion and agression against western lands. This is what miss Armstrong failed to notice :)
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barney
06-28-2007, 10:19 PM
Ahh, she noticed it, but like every muslim i've ever talked to so far, they would rather quote the three hundred thousand that died in the Crusades over 500 years than the 1.6 million that died in the Sudan since 2001, or Saddam killing 350,000.

Will the ummah decry Saddam for the next 600 years? Nope, he was a Muslim killing Muslim's. (A "bad" muslim for sure...but he wasnt a westerner.) You see, he was anti american, and his people could all go to hell as far as his "Brothers" in other nations cared.
It took the Evily evil bad bad west to finally stop his slaughter.
And the evily evil bad bad west is to blame for the tens of thousands of muslims racking up their body count of innocents now. Forget that though.... lets remember the crusades.
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wilberhum
06-28-2007, 10:24 PM
Keltoi,
Nobody is trying to "defend" the Crusades
Boy did you misread me. I saw no defense for the Crusabes. I didn't want any one to think I was eather. I condemn them. I wanted to point out that the Crusades was not the first clash between East and West.
Peace,
Wilber
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barney
06-28-2007, 10:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Keltoi,

Boy did you misread me. I saw no defense for the Crusabes. I didn't want any one to think I was eather. I condemn them. I wanted to point out that the Crusades was not the first clash between East and West.
Peace,
Wilber
Yeah, Likewise I utterly condem the Crusades. The massacers, the invasion, the oppression. All of it is abhorant.
It shows what religion can do if you think your fighting in "Gods" name. Born out today by the Beheadings and suicide bombers. Born out yesteryear by Britains Missionary fuelled empire building.(though that had a mainly political basis)

Christians love apologising for the crusades. Will Muslims condem their Jihads?
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wilberhum
06-28-2007, 10:53 PM
Will Muslims condem their Jihads?
Not a chance. Remember how much pressure had to be put on CAIR to say OBL was not one of the good guys.
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Amadeus85
06-28-2007, 10:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney

Christians love apologising for the crusades. Will Muslims condem their Jihads?
European civilization is very good in criticizing itself.
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barney
06-28-2007, 11:08 PM
We are actually running out of stuf in the UK to apologise for. We just apologised for the slave trade in a big way and are considering compensation suits.

If we do compensate, can we pay for it with compensation from Sweden for the Viking Raids of 900AD?

Has any Muslim country apologised for any of its actions ever? I'm sure some must have done for something...just I dont know of any examples.

South Africa apologised for Aparthid, The USA apologises for the native genocide and its own aparthid, Germany apologises to everybody in the world.......

C'mon..it's not so hard. How can anything ever get better if you cant take responsibility for your actions.
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Amadeus85
06-28-2007, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
We are actually running out of stuf in the UK to apologise for. We just apologised for the slave trade in a big way and are considering compensation suits.

If we do compensate, can we pay for it with compensation from Sweden for the Viking Raids of 900AD?

Has any Muslim country apologised for any of its actions ever? I'm sure some must have done for something...just I dont know of any examples.

South Africa apologised for Aparthid, The USA apologises for the native genocide and its own aparthid, Germany apologises to everybody in the world.......

C'mon..it's not so hard. How can anything ever get better if you cant take responsibility for your actions.
Yes you are right, it is always easier to play eternal victim, and not to admit our own crimes and failures. I think that realizing own mistakes and bad acts is a good way to progress and reforms. For example i dont think that Germans will ever in future do something like Holocaust,and Americans rather wont go back to racism.
In my opinion those who realize their mistakes , can reach further, than those who all the time accuse "others" .
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wilberhum
06-28-2007, 11:21 PM
What if the only mistake ever made was thinking you were wrong. :skeleton:

Perfection is tough to beat. :rollseyes

The West invades the East it is the Crusades.
The East invades the West it is Islamic Liberation.

It all depends on how you want to look at things. :D
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Keltoi
06-29-2007, 12:02 AM
Armstrong likes to point out that Europe was in the "Dark Ages" at the time of the First Crusade, but that is sort of misleading in itself. While the Turks and the Islamic civilization had more learning centers and the like, the strength of the Europeans was in warfare. They got pretty good at killing each other for centuries. The Turks, with their light cavalry style of warfare, was at a major disadvantage when it came to crossing swords with European heavy cavalry. There wasn't much "chivalry", but there were knights, and they aren't easy to kill. I believe in the first confrontation with the Turks at Nicaea, only one knight was killed. Granted a few hundred men-at-arms were killed, but a heavily armored knight is quite an advantage on the battlefield. Sort of like the medieval version of a tank.

What was my point?....oh yeah, the Europeans were hardly "inferior" to Turks when it came to warfare, which the First Crusade displayed for all to see. Armstrong suggests that the Islamic kingdoms more or less ignored the Crusade, which is pure fantasy. The truth is that the First Crusade, notably Bohemond, Guy, and Tancred, had a reputation for savagery and killed without mercy. The Islamic kingdoms wisely stayed well clear of them and offered no aid to their subjects after Antioch. Until the rise of Saladin of course, when the Crusader kingdoms were fat and happy and the religious fervor had died.
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barney
06-29-2007, 12:10 AM
Off topic for a second, the Parthians had heavy cataphtacts as well as light horse, although we had upgraded to Plate armour and mail barding.

There are several examples of Crusader armies being whittled away by skirmishing light horse, it was when a charge of heavy cav connected that the Crusaders won hands down.
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Keltoi
06-29-2007, 01:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Off topic for a second, the Parthians had heavy cataphtacts as well as light horse, although we had upgraded to Plate armour and mail barding.

There are several examples of Crusader armies being whittled away by skirmishing light horse, it was when a charge of heavy cav connected that the Crusaders won hands down.
This conversation also reminds me that at one point the First Crusade had no cavalry to speak of, when all the horses died of starvation. I have no idea how they managed to survive being primarily an infantry force for quite some time. I believe this was during and after the siege of Antioch. I could talk about this stuff forever, even if it is off-topic.

On point though, it isn't my intent to belittle the accomplishments of certain Islamic kingdoms, but this article seems too concerned with demonizing one side and propping up the other. Interesting read though, since it does bring up alot of engaging topics.
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Cognescenti
06-29-2007, 05:13 AM
It seems to me the Crusades do instruct the present situation of the "West" (which is not monolithically Christian anymore) vis a vis Islam.....but not for the reason the author suggests.

What it shows me is that the errors of the Crusades have informed the "West' of the pitfalls of "holy wars". In fact, secular motivations are almost always expressed as a justification for war now. Of course, we still have wars..they just have different justifications. :)

Those that term the current unpleasantries a "War on Islam" really do not understand how secular the West is. Less so, perhaps in the Southeastern US, but still, most of the US population lives in the big cities and couldn't find a church with a GPS and Mapquest.
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Zman
06-30-2007, 04:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Thanks for reopening.

Islam: A short History, (despite in the title saying..short history..) is IMO, way too breif on the Prophets life, it runs to about 4 pages.
What is your source for this info?
They knew who westerners were and to say that their first encounter was when a Army decended on Jerusalam is either Deliberately lying (likely) or she knows nothing about history at all. (less likely).
The lands of the ancient Middle East & North Africa, were technically NOTpart of the "West." Geographoically, they are considered part of the East.

"Westerners," conquered and occupied those lands and imposed their system of beliefs and rule upon those people before Islam emerged.

You forget to cite that there was evidence that the people of the ancient Middle East who requested liberation by the Mulsims from Byzantine tyranny.

You also forgot to include that one of the Visigoth royals (who ruled ancient Spain) went to North Africa and requested the aid of the Muslim army. When the ancient Spaniards were liberated and saw the vast difference between Christian & Islamic rule, they embraced Islam in droves.

639—642 conquer Egypt.
I believe Coptic clergy requested that Muslims rid them of Byzantine tyranny.
641 control Syria...

Same as above.

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance
That's an oxymoronic term.
807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

What is your source for this?

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

Is that a term you coined? If not, where is the source?

850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

Source?

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem
Source?
973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

Is that a term you coined, or from another source? You are aware that there was no state of Israel back then?

1003 the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

Source?

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

Source?
Reply

Cognescenti
06-30-2007, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zman
What is your source for this info?]
? Prisonplanet perhaps?
Reply

Zman
07-06-2007, 08:09 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

The Arab Conquests

Jul 5th 2007From
The Economist Print Eedition
The Economist

The early followers of the Prophet owed their astounding success in spreading the faith to intelligence and restraint as well as to zeal

AN AGGRESSIVE Bedouin horde, drunk on religion, sweeps out of the Arabian peninsula—on the way burning the great library of Alexandria—and, through wholesale massacre and forced conversion, imposes Islam on a vast area stretching from Spain to the fringes of China. If this is your mental picture of the rise of Islam, dimly remembered from some long-ago history lesson, take note: it is in almost every respect wrong.

Hugh Kennedy sets out to explain an historical puzzle.

How could Arab forces, relatively small in number and with no particular superiority in weaponry, have pulled off such an apparently impossible feat?

In the century that followed the death of the Prophet in 632, they challenged two established empires (the Byzantine and Sasanian).

They conquered Syria in eight years, Iraq in seven, Egypt in a mere two and Spain and Portugal in five. At the same time, they pushed deep into Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent.

How did they do it? Why did they not meet stronger and more sustained resistance? And, no less of a mystery, how did the empire they created endure?
painstakingly reconstructing the series of Arab conquests, Mr Kennedy paints a picture strikingly at odds with the popular clichés.

“The Muslim conquests”, he writes, “were far from being the outpouring of an unruly horde of nomads.”

The Bedouin of Arabia were tough and highly mobile, fired by tribal honour and love of booty as well as by zeal for Islam.

They were led by intelligent men from the Meccan elite who knew they had to channel the “frenetic military energies of the Bedouin” outwards, or else face a real risk of implosion.

These leaders also seem to have grasped that to have based their conquests on mass killings and conversion by the sword would have been a fatal mistake.

There were massacres, but they were not the norm.

If conquered peoples paid tribute and did not make trouble, they were largely left alone.

Local people were incorporated into the new administrative class. Existing religions—Christianity in Syria and Egypt, Zoroastrianism in Persian-ruled areas, Hinduism and Buddhism farther east—were not persecuted.

Large-scale conversions came much later; at the time there was little or no pressure on the conquered people to convert.

As for the sack of the Alexandrian library, that, says Mr Kennedy, is a discredited myth.

The Arabs were also lucky in their timing. Mr Kennedy speculates that, had they got going a generation earlier, success would probably have eluded them. As it was, disarray within the Byzantine and Sasanian empires helps to explain why the Arabs met little serious resistance there.

But this was not everywhere the case. The early Muslim armies met their fiercest opposition from the Turks of Central Asia. And, on the other side of their empire, they conquered the Berbers of North Africa but alienated them through the brutalities of the slave trade, which sparked the great Berber rebellion of 741.

Mr Kennedy tells a remarkable tale with skill and authority...

...Mr Kennedy uses Arabic sources, but critically, and tries to balance them by giving voice to the conquered.

Source:
http://www.economist.com/books/displ...ory_id=9433846
Reply

wilberhum
07-06-2007, 08:19 PM
Ah, Yes, History written by the victors. :skeleton:
Reply

Bittersteel
07-06-2007, 08:31 PM
what do you mean history of Islam?I think the phrase history of the Islamic Ummah or civilization is more correct.Islam is a religion.It doesn't and never will refer to a group of followers.
A lot has happened in the history of Muslims.we had huge empires but none that lasted long.
Isn't it regarded by scholars all over the world that the Quran(or Islam) allows military conquests?I regard the military conquests as personal ambitions of leaders and that too includes the killing of innocents by Aurangzeb and all the nutty emperors and kings Muslims had.
Reply

Zman
07-07-2007, 06:45 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Grievances Of The Present Magnified By Memories From The Past

By: Nazeer Ahmed
7/7/2007
Iviews
What the world demands from the West is respect.

The modern dialectic between the West and other civilizations is colored by the often bloody history of colonialism.

Centuries of domination and exploitation has fostered in many parts of the world an abiding distrust of the West.

On the other hand, attitudes of superiority persist in pockets of Europe and America.

The present must come to terms with the past for a meaningful dialogue across cultural, national, ethnic and civilization divides. Mere slogans and platitudes will not do.
In this article we recall but a few of historical events that are all too familiar to our readers and which may have shaped their perceptions of the West.

It Was The Year 1799.

On a hot summer day in May of that fateful year, British troops stormed Srirangapatam, the capital of Tipu Sultan, the Tiger of Mysore. The sultan, alone among the princes and potentates of South Asia, had successfully resisted the advance of the British Empire for forty years. Tippu fell in battle, as a valiant soldier fighting for his people. That is well known. What is less known is the looting that followed.

When the news of Tippu's death was confirmed, British troops fell on the city. Looting continued through the night. It was not until late in the following morning that the mayhem was stopped. The British, known for their pomp, organized a state burial for the sultan, then turned again to the business of looting.

The state treasury had more than 150,000 gold coins. These were distributed among the troops. Next it was the turn of the royal belongings.

Tippu's gold throne was melted down, divided into small lots and the officers haggled over the size of their lot. The only item that was spared was the jewel studded huma bird that had graced the throne. It was packaged and sent off to London for the royal collections.

The loot of Srirangapatam was not unique. Similar episodes were repeated both before and after the fall of Mysore.


---

When the kingdom of Oudh fell in 1762 after the Battle of Buxor, Warren Hastings, the governor of Bengal embarked on an extortion spree to fatten up the coffers of the East India Company.

He demanded all the gold and diamond jewelry from the Begums of Oudh. When the Begums refused, they were confined to their homes and starved until they surrendered their belongings.

---

In 1857, when the Sepoy uprising in India failed, and the British marched victoriously back into the capital, they expelled the entire population of the city for six months.

More than fifty thousand people were hanged so much so that every street of Delhi looked like an execution chamber.

-----

It Was The Year 1919.

The First World War had ended and a large number of Punjabi troops fighting for the British had returned home.

Woodrow Wilson's rhetoric of democracy and freedom had caught their imagination.

But alas!

Returning home from war, they discovered that the rhetoric of freedom did not mean freedom for India.


Instead, the British, determined more than ever to hang onto their Indian colony, passed the infamous Rowlett Act, reminiscent in so many ways of the draconian anti-terrorist laws passed by modern nations. Its purpose was to prevent any organized movement for Indian independence.

Protests ensued. One such peaceful demonstration was in Jallianwalla Bagh in the Punjab.

Thousands gathered to hear the local leaders. Unknown to them a contingent of British troops, under the direction of one General Dyer, waited for them. Without warning, they shot point blank and massacred thousands of men, women and children.

The story is familiar. If you wish to discover the ancient heritage of a country, your best option is to visit one of the great museums in London, Madrid, Paris or Rome. Therein you will find the most valuable artifacts of a nation, from Egyptian mummies to the gold coins from Samaria.

---

Perhaps the only major country that escaped large scale looting was Turkey.

The Turks managed to hold their own against the West until the First World War and then waged a successful battle to retain their independence and carve out a homeland for themselves.

The British were not alone in the imperial game. France, Italy, Russia and Holland were co-players.

The French gained control of the Algerian coast in 1840 when the Ottomans, weakened by continuous warfare with Russia and Austria, could not defend their far flung possessions. By the time Sultan Abdul Hamid ascended the Ottoman throne (1876), French control of most of West Africa was complete. Substantial French colonization of the Algerian coastline followed. By the end of World War II, more than a million French were settled in Algeria, claiming it to be a part of France.

Weakened and exhausted by Hitler's war (1939-45), the European powers could not hold on to their colonies.

When the Algerians, like the Indians and the Indonesians, made a demand for independence, the French who had just been liberated from Nazi occupation (1940-45), unleashed their guns on the hapless Algerians.

In 1945, over fifty thousand Algerian demonstrators were slaughtered by French gunfire in Setif and Guelma.

Over the next fifteen years, from 1945 until Charles De Gaulle gave up the Algerian colony in 1962, more than one million Algerians, almost five percent of the total population, was butchered by the French.

---

The Italians, under Mussolini, invaded Ethiopia, brutally occupied Addis Ababa and forced Emperor Haile Salassie into exile.

Resistance was mercilessly crushed and the treasures of the land carted away to Rome.

---

The Dutch were defeated and evicted from Indonesia by the Japanese during WWII.

Following the surrender of Japan (May 1945), the Indonesians under the leadership of Sukarno declared their independence.

The Dutch were not going to give up their colonies so easily.

The Dutch navy, backed up by the British navy, bombarded Jakarta, landed troops, and reoccupied the islands.

A bloody war of liberation followed. Thousands were killed.

It was not until 1948 that the Indonesians were victorious and the Dutch finally packed up and went home.

---

The Russian occupation of Central Asia and the Caucasus was even more brutal.

Starting with the decade of the 1850s the Czarist armies made relentless war on the Khans of Samarqand and Bukhara in Central Asia, and on the Chechens and Daghistanis in the Caucuses.

Resistance was stiff. The exploits of Shaykh Shamyl of Dagestan against the Russians are legendary.

Nonetheless, the superior power of the Russians finally prevailed and all of these areas came under Czarist occupation.

What followed was a century of cultural and national suppression until the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1992.

The lands of Central Asia gained their independence but Chechnya and Dagestan remain under Russian control to this day.

---

The American historical experience with non-European peoples has been equally tragic.

The elimination of Native Americans and the Atlantic slave trade were so monstrous in their human impact that they are a painful sore in the collective conscience of humanity.

More recently, the selective internment of Japanese Americans during WWII was a reminder that ethnic distrust is a living reality.

Notwithstanding this background, perceptions of America around the world were free of the stigma of colonialism until 1945.

This was in spite of the American occupation of the Philippines and Cuba after the Spanish-American war of 1896.

American colonial rule in the Philippines was so benign that many in the islands genuinely liked the Americans.

As for Cuba, Fidel Castro would not stand a chance if the Americans had treated the island with a little more respect than a playboy resort to be ruled by Battista and his henchmen.

The Second World War thrust the United States on to the center stage in world affairs.

As a nation dedicated to democratic ideals and an open society, the emergence of the US brought hope to large sections of Afro-Asia and Latin America. The expectations evaporated as the United States got involved with geopolitics and soiled its hands.

The Vietnam war, the not so secret American role in the overthrow of Mussaddaq of Iran, perceptions of partisan role of the US in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and scores of interventions around the world have destroyed much of the goodwill that America enjoyed.

The Iraq war is an ongoing tragedy about which it is too early to form a historical perspective.

---

Even a cursory survey of colonialism and its legacy of distrust must include non-Western empires as well.


The Japanese occupation of Korea and China was brutal and cruel beyond description. The atrocities committed by the Japanese forces continue to mar international relations in the eastern Pacific to this day.

It was the intervention of Japan, starting with Manchuria after the Russian-Japanese war of 1904, and the social havoc caused by military occupation (1931-45) that prevented the success of the modernizing, democratic reforms introduced by Sun Yat-Sen (1867-1925).

Ultimately, it pushed China in the direction of a Communist takeover in 1948.

---
A shrunken world has brought the former colonizers and the colonized closer together.

Thousands of angry African men roam the streets of Paris and unemployed Asian youth saunter around in London.

They may not know history but history has a way of getting into your blood. It is passed on through a mother's milk.

Memories shape attitudes. Grievances of the present are magnified by memories from the past.

Those concerned with civil unrest and the evolution of democratic, civil societies must come to terms not only with social conditions of the present but also perceptions of the past.
Professor Nazeer Ahmed is President of American Institute of Islamic History and Culture in Corcord, California.

Source:
http://www.iviews.com/Articles/artic...ef=IV0707-3308
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