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Zman
07-09-2007, 03:58 PM
:sl:/Peace To All

Muslims Denied Mosques By French Islamophobes

French Muslims Struggle To Have Mosques


Courtesy Of: IslamOnLine
Mon. Jul. 9, 2007

MONTREUIL, France — The construction of grand mosques in France has become a mission impossible as rightists stand as the main roadblock and derail strenuous efforts made by Muslims to have a proper place of worship just like other communities in the secular country.

"Islam is the second largest religious group in France. Surely we can have a decent place," Mohamed Aboulbaki a Muslim leader from the town of Montreuil, east of Paris, told Agence France-Presse (AFP) on Monday, July 9.

"The Catholics, Protestants and Jews all have a place to pray in dignity. Why not us?"

In Montreuil, plans for building a modern-style grand mosque was halted after a lawsuit won by far-right politicians.

The case of Montreuil echoes that of the Mediterranean port city of Marseille — home to 250,000 Muslims — where the building of a grand mosque was frozen in April following a similar lawsuit.

The construction of a mosque in the Paris suburb of Creteil is also challenged in court.


Rightists made no secret of their Islamophobic views.

"What we want to halt is the Islamization of our country," Patricia Vayssiere, the far-right councilor from Montreuil, told AFP.

Vayssiere, a senior member of the far-right National Republican Mouvement (MNR), added that they see the building of a mosque as encouraging the emergence of Islam as political force in France.

"We are not against Islam as long as it remains a private matter."
But Aboulbaki blasted the right-wing's Islamophobic tone.

"The idea that building a mosque amounts to encouraging Islamization and fundamentalism must be removed once and for all," he said.

France must "get its mosques out of the basements" if it wants its Muslim population to fully integrate into mainstream society, added Aboulbaki.

France is home to around six million Muslims, the largest Muslim minority in Europe.

Muslims have only 1,500 mosques or prayer houses, most of which are housed in small, modest halls, often described as "basement mosques."

France's first mosque, the Great Mosque of Paris, opened in 1926 in Paris' Latin Quarter. It was built with help from Algerian donors.

Double-Standards


Far-rightists have seized on provisions of a law on the separation of church and state to argue that city councils are illegally subsidizing religion by awarding leases for little money.

But French officials have admitted that the decades-long church and state law is exploited when it comes to the construction of mosques.

"The fundamental issue is that there is a double-standard," said Didier Leschi, the director of the religious affairs office at the Interior Ministry.

"Long-term leases are only being challenged when they are for mosques."
The Montreuil city council agreed to a long-term lease of land for the paltry sum of one euro (1.4 dollars) while Marseille had demanded 300 euros per year for a plot for the new mosque. Both, after court rulings, have reviewed the leases.

"In Montreuil, there is opposition to the symbolic sum of one euro but in the 1930s, the Catholic Church in the Paris region got long-term leases for 1,000 francs, or about 1.50 euros," said Leschi.

Vincent Geisser, a researcher on Islam, says that not all politicians are Islamophobic, but rather support the construction of mosques to help ease some of the tensions in the immigrant-heavy suburbs.

"Many mayors see a mosque in their community as a sort of clinic, with clearly identified people that they could talk to and enlist for help," said Geisser.

Via:
http://freethoughtmanifesto.blogspot...by-french.html
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Encolpius
07-09-2007, 04:05 PM
This doesn't surprise me, Marseille and that area are the main political strongholds of the FN.
Reply

wilberhum
07-09-2007, 04:12 PM
It seems that every time Muslims don't get what they want they cry Islamaphovia.

There are many reasons why people would find this undesirable and thay have nothing to do with intollorance.
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Encolpius
07-09-2007, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
It seems that every time Muslims don't get what they want they cry Islamaphovia.

There are many reasons why people would find this undesirable and thay have nothing to do with intollorance.
And this article also doesn't mention the Montreuil judges' rationale behind the decision.
Reply

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Woodrow
07-09-2007, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
It seems that every time Muslims don't get what they want they cry Islamaphovia.

There are many reasons why people would find this undesirable and thay have nothing to do with intollorance.
I will agree that at times possibly even often we holler Islamphobia when it is actually something else.

But in that article a couple of the statements expressed seem to indicate fear of Islam:

"What we want to halt is the Islamization of our country," Patricia Vayssiere, the far-right councilor from Montreuil, told AFP.

Vayssiere, a senior member of the far-right National Republican Mouvement (MNR), added that they see the building of a mosque as encouraging the emergence of Islam as political force in France.
Reply

wilberhum
07-09-2007, 05:02 PM
http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php...9-015639-2869r

Despite a major fund-raising campaign, only €200,000 of the total €1.5 million needed to build the mosque have been raised from the local community made up mostly of Malians, north Africans, Senegalese, and Muslims from the Comoros.
They have been working at this for about 4 years I think. They have raised less than 15% of the funds needed. At that rate it won’t be finished for 30 years. When it goes into use I would guess that the congestion would be horrific.
I don’t know that I would want a 30 years of construction going on in my area followed by massive congestion. I guess that makes me Islamophobic. :skeleton:
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Zman
07-09-2007, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Encolpius
And this article also doesn't mention the Montreuil judges' rationale behind the decision.

What is their rationale?
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wilberhum
07-09-2007, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I will agree that at times possibly even often we holler Islamphobia when it is actually something else.

But in that article a couple of the statements expressed seem to indicate fear of Islam:
I think one would have to be totally naive to thing that there is no Islamophobia involved.

But when an article presents only one side of a situation, I do get suspicious.
Especially from islamonline.com. I use to read them all the time. But too many deceptive reports stopped me from considering them a reliable source.

Xenophobia exists everywhere, to what extent will very from place to place. How much it has to do with this issue, I don’t know. My research is coming up empty at this time.
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Encolpius
07-09-2007, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by Zman

What is their rationale?
I don't know, that's why I was mentioning that it needed to be put in the article. They could have pointed out some entirely different and unrelated reasons why they agreed that the local authority should have refused the request for funding; the fact that the article doesn't mention their reasoning implies that the views of the rightist commentators quoted were those same reasons given by the judges - and as we know, the French legal establishment views policy arguments in an exceptionally bad light.
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wilberhum
07-09-2007, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Encolpius
I don't know, that's why I was mentioning that it needed to be put in the article. They could have pointed out some entirely different and unrelated reasons why they agreed that the local authority should have refused the request for funding; the fact that the article doesn't mention their reasoning implies that the views of the rightist commentators quoted were those same reasons given by the judges - and as we know, the French legal establishment views policy arguments in an exceptionally bad light.
I think that is a really bad assumption. Knowing islamonline.com, they would never post the judges reasons if they didn't support the conclusion they want you to come to.
Reply

Encolpius
07-09-2007, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think that is a really bad assumption. Knowing islamonline.com, they would never post the judges reasons if they didn't support the conclusion they want you to come to.
That's what I was saying, I maybe phrased it a bit wrong. I meant to say that the article implies that the judges' reasoning was the same as that of the commentators even though that may not have been the case. Apologies.
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wilberhum
07-09-2007, 08:13 PM
This is beginning to smell like 3 day old fish. :uuh:
I can’t find anything on islamonline or anywhere but Zman’s Blog. :confused:
I guess he must have been at the consul meeting. :thumbs_do
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Abdul Fattah
07-09-2007, 09:11 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think that is a really bad assumption. Knowing islamonline.com, they would never post the judges reasons if they didn't support the conclusion they want you to come to.
Since this is all speculative, this is a form of slander towards Islamonline. Either look up something to back your claims, or remain silent please.
Reply

Muezzin
07-09-2007, 09:13 PM
Okay, calm down messrs dooster and wilberhum.
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wilberhum
07-09-2007, 09:21 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Since this is all speculative, this is a form of slander towards Islamonline. Either look up something to back your claims, or remain silent please.
What is speculative? Islamonline didn't put up this article or the FACT that Islamonline changes headings to create a bias the way they want it?
Reply

Zman
07-09-2007, 09:23 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I can’t find anything on islamonline or anywhere but Zman’s Blog...

Are you seriousely trying to pass that IslamOnline doesn't carry this article and I fabricated it?

Did you go to the blog, click on the IslamOnline link to access the original article?

Do research the material a little more thoroughly, before you slander people.

Here's the link (I'm not gonna do your work for you anymore. Just remember, slandering and personal attacks can easily become a 2-way street. I do have the right to defend myself):

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...News/NWELayout
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wilberhum
07-09-2007, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Zman
[i]
Are you seriousely trying to pass that IslamOnline doesn't carry this article and I fabricated it?
If that is the way you want to read it. :rollseyes

I searched through Islamonline half a dozen different ways and found nothing.
Now you link worked, so thank you. :thumbs_up

I'm still perplexed that there is no other reference on any news source or any online search.
:?
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Woodrow
07-09-2007, 09:39 PM
I must agree with Wilberhum. Although i accept Islamonline as getting their news from Valid sources. It is his right to ask that we try to provide some verification that all members can accept.

This probably originally came from several sources and most likely in French. I think it is only fair we try to provide additional verification or accept the fact that some members will not accept Islamonline as a source.
Reply

Zman
07-09-2007, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I must agree with Wilberhum. Although i accept Islamonline as getting their news from Valid sources. It is his right to ask that we try to provide some verification that all members can accept...
:sl:

The link to the source was already provided, and verification could have been easily performed by him.

The article has been on their front page, all day.

If he had issues about not finding the article, he could have put it in a more diplomatic way, and I would have been more than happy to help him out. Instead, he chose slander...
Reply

doorster
07-09-2007, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I must agree with Wilberhum. Although i accept Islamonline as getting their news from Valid sources. It is his right to ask that we try to provide some verification that all members can accept.

This probably originally came from several sources and most likely in French. I think it is only fair we try to provide additional verification or accept the fact that some members will not accept Islamonline as a source.
Original Author is Carole Landry (AFP)

:w:

edit:
it still survives at http://www.metimes.com/storyview.php?StoryID=20070709-015639-2869r
Reply

Woodrow
07-09-2007, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by doorster
Original Author is Carole Landry (AFP)

:w:
:w:

Thank you Doorster, that is what I was looking for
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doorster
07-09-2007, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:w:

Thank you Doorster, that is what I was looking for
:w:
:) you are most welcome, My brother!

[quote=Zman;787826]:sl:
[I]
The link to the source was already provided, and verification could have been easily performed by him.

The article has been on their front page, all day.

Edit: please refrain from personal attacks, it is not constructive.
Reply

Woodrow
07-09-2007, 10:17 PM
Edit: Removed quote from deleted post

That is of little importance, we need to keep in mind that many of our non-Muslim members do not view Islamonline as a valid news source. If it all possible it is best we find sources that can be accepted by all members.

Here is link to the original story as written br Carole Landry and published by AFP



http://www.france24.com/france24Publ...hc&cat=culture


This should verify that the story was not a fabrication by Islamonline.
Reply

Woodrow
07-09-2007, 10:22 PM
Let us now return to the topic and set aside our personal disagreements.

I will restate that the story does show that France is suffering from Islamphobia and it is straining relations.

The Mosques are not being built, because some people in France fear Muslims.
Reply

wilberhum
07-09-2007, 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Let us now return to the topic and set aside our personal disagreements.

I will restate that the story does show that France is suffering from Islamphobia and it is straining relations.

The Mosques are not being built, because some people in France fear Muslims.
The question still remains, Why? Until we here what the judges say, we can only guess. Of course there is a level, a serious level of Islamaphobia and I think it is growing.
But that does not mean Islamaphobia is the cause. I want to know the reasons the judges made the ruling, not some news source implications.
Reply

wilberhum
07-09-2007, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Since this is all speculative, this is a form of slander towards Islamonline. Either look up something to back your claims, or remain silent please.
I hate to be off topic, but when I'm accurse, only based on someone's personal bias, of slander, I feel a strong need to respond.

For a long time I visited Islamonline. I am always interested in different views. I had seen several occasions where the “Head Lines” did not match the story. When I started checking them out, I found that the title they used was different than the source.
The last time they did that, I quit using them as a news source.

I read on CNN about an outburst on Sydney beaches where there were troubles between some Lebanese men and other locals.
I read on Al Jazerra that there were some cases of men of Lebanese decent has raped a local girl an there were hostilities building up.
I read on BBC that there were gangs build up in Sydney and they were attacking anyone that appeared to be Lebanese.
I read the same story on Islamonline. They cited BBC as there source. But they changed the Head Line to some thing like
“Hatred of Muslims on rise in Australia”.
No place in any report, from any source, including Islamonline was the word Muslim ever used.
The story did not support the Head Line Islamonline used. It seams to be a trick they frequent.
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Amadeus85
07-09-2007, 11:23 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Let us now return to the topic and set aside our personal disagreements.

I will restate that the story does show that France is suffering from Islamphobia and it is straining relations.

The Mosques are not being built, because some people in France fear Muslims.
Well, some time ago, i heard from one of moderators here ( we were talking about attacking church in Indonesia), that for him the western countries have right to stop the process of islamization and to bann islamic proselytism.
I think that people who you call islamophobes are not against islam but against islamization of Europe. It is a big difference. I am also against islamization, but still i have respect for islam and i would give muslims full rights to practice their religion in Europe, including wearing hijabs wherever they want and building mosques where muslims need. But what i mean is that muslims in Europe must follow european laws , not islamic laws. I think that this is what is all about. Only under this condition Europe can remain Europe, not change into Eurabia, Londonistan or whatever.
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Zman
07-10-2007, 12:25 AM
[QUOTE=doorster;787837]:w:

Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:
[I]
The link to the source was already provided, and verification could have been easily performed by him.

The article has been on their front page, all day.

Edit: please refrain from personal attacks, it is not constructive.

Masha Allah, a "Talib Ilm," with a filthy mouth.

This isn't the first time you attacked me or other members, who don't share your view. But this is my first response to you.

This won't be my last response to you or those Islamophobes who constantly attack me. Since, the only deterrence here is to delete a post, which only encourgaes your attacks on me and others.

I am forced to defend myself, since the forum doesn't provide substantial defense to those who are constantly abused by you and the small quantity of Islamophobes.

No disrespect to the mods or the new managers, but if all you have to offer is a "slap on the wrist" to Talib Ilm and the Islamophobes, then members will take matters into their own hands.

This isn't a mutiny, but enough-is-enough!

Constantly hiding behind Islamic manners and "political correctness," Just to accomodate the meaningless feelings of a few Islamophobes at the expense of most Muslim members who are interested in gaining vital information, is unjust, and illogical.

This is not a mutiny nor a challenge to your authority, but if the few Islamophobes and Talib Ilm don't give a **** about political correctness and our sensitivities, then there will only be resiprocity.

You can ban me if you wish for stating the truth and the obvious. If you choose that just to save a few bad apples in our midst, then that's fine and won't reflect positively with the other members.

That's your call, and if you want me to leave, Just say so and I'm gone.

But I won't stay and keep taking abuse, and I won't allow some deletions to tie my hands and deny me the right to defend myself.

Either enforce stronger rules against all, or let the members defend themselves.
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thirdwatch512
07-10-2007, 12:33 AM
Ok last time I checked, in a shariah country, a Church can't even be repaired, nor built, once a shariah gets started.

In saudi arabia Christians can not even worship there.

And I have yet to see anyone condemn that. Yet you guys condemn this? What a double standard.

I am from France, and we have our reasons for what we do. If someone expects to be a citizen of France, then they need to act like a French citizen. I'm not saying that being French you have to be Christian or atheist. Certainly not. But, if you are a muslim, you need to accept a liberal form of islam. One that does not promote hate for homosexuals, one that does not want people dead for drinking wine, and one that doesn't blow up 300 cars a day in our suburbs.

If you are not willing to compromise your religious values(which quite frankly i'm not saying it's a bad thing.) But do NOT expect us to compromise our values to fit your needs either.
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doorster
07-10-2007, 12:42 AM
bloody hell! if its not the loony terror lovers its the lying kafars

and I am trapped right smack in middle of both.

edit:
Saudi Arabia has been a satellite of UK ever since the times of British Empire. Take it up with London!
Reply

wilberhum
07-10-2007, 03:34 AM
Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
Ok last time I checked, in a shariah country, a Church can't even be repaired, nor built, once a shariah gets started.

In saudi arabia Christians can not even worship there.

And I have yet to see anyone condemn that. Yet you guys condemn this? What a double standard.

I am from France, and we have our reasons for what we do. If someone expects to be a citizen of France, then they need to act like a French citizen. I'm not saying that being French you have to be Christian or atheist. Certainly not. But, if you are a muslim, you need to accept a liberal form of islam. One that does not promote hate for homosexuals, one that does not want people dead for drinking wine, and one that doesn't blow up 300 cars a day in our suburbs.

If you are not willing to compromise your religious values(which quite frankly i'm not saying it's a bad thing.) But do NOT expect us to compromise our values to fit your needs either.
Wow, and in steps Wilber the Muslim Hater, well some say that. :skeleton:
What happens in Saudi Arabia should have no bearing on what happens in France. In France and the West in general are Democracies. In a Democracy there should be freedom of religion.
How Muslims feel about homosexuality and drinking is none of your or my business, that is as long as no harm is done to either.
There is absolute no reason that any one should have to “compromise” religious values.
If anyone needs to look inward it is someone who is so bigoted that they would say, “Blow up 300 cars a day”. No matter how much sugar you put on that BS it won’t be candy.:rollseyes
The fact that I question that the decision was based on Islamaphobia does not mean I condone Islamaphobia in any shape of form.
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thirdwatch512
07-10-2007, 04:35 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Wow, and in steps Wilber the Muslim Hater, well some say that. :skeleton:
They say that about anyone who comes with an objective view of islam.

What happens in Saudi Arabia should have no bearing on what happens in France. In France and the West in general are Democracies. In a Democracy there should be freedom of religion.
I agree. And I am not saying that I support these people who are blocking a mosque from being built. I was making a statement however, condeming some members on here who have justified not allowing Churches in muslim countries, yet come on here and say it's "islamaphobic" that a mosque can't be built. You can't have it both ways.

How Muslims feel about homosexuality and drinking is none of your or my business, that is as long as no harm is done to either.
The rights of a person is my buisiness.

There is absolute no reason that any one should have to “compromise” religious values.
Which is EXACTLY why i added the parenthesis when I made my post.. If you are not willing to compromise your religious values(which quite frankly i'm not saying it's a bad thing.)

If anyone needs to look inward it is someone who is so bigoted that they would say, “Blow up 300 cars a day”. No matter how much sugar you put on that BS it won’t be candy.:rollseyes
The fact that I question that the decision was based on Islamaphobia does not mean I condone Islamaphobia in any shape of form.
Here, allow me to post some snips from articles..
[PIE]Almost every night, cars are set alight in the streets between the crumbling apartment blocks in which most people live.

Radical Muslims in France's housing estates are waging an undeclared "intifada" against the police, with violent clashes injuring an average of 14 officers each day.

As the interior ministry said that nearly 2,500 officers had been wounded this year, a police union declared that its members were "in a state of civil war" with Muslims in the most depressed "banlieue" estates which are heavily populated by unemployed youths of north African origin.

“He said yesterday: ‘We are in a state of war, orchestrated by radical Islamists. This is not a question of urban violence any more, it is an intifada, with stones and Molotov cocktails. You no longer see two or three youths confronting police, you see whole tower blocks emptying into the streets to set their “comrades” free when they are arrested.’”

The figures are stark. An average of 112 cars a day have been torched across France so far this year and there have been 15 attacks a day on police and emergency services. Nearly 3,000 police officers have been injured in clashes this year. Officers have been badly injured in four ambushes in the Paris outskirts since September. Some police talk of open war with youths who are bent on more than vandalism.

[/PIE]
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wilberhum
07-10-2007, 04:51 AM
They say that about anyone who comes with an objective view of islam.
I have noticed that too, in fact many times.
The rights of a person is my buisiness.
We are not talking about rights, we are talking about attitudes. I have every right to Hate a group, I don't, but I have the right. I do not have the right to harm anyone it that group. There is a difference.
Almost every night, cars are set alight in the streets between the crumbling apartment blocks in which most people live.
But to be honest, it wasn't "Radical Muslims". It was youths with little future. I think it is a fact that they were mostly Muslims, but Radical is painting them with the wrong "Brush".
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Keltoi
07-10-2007, 04:59 AM
I don't think anything can sugar coat the level of distrust that has grown between non-Muslims and Muslims in Europe and to a lesser degree the United States. We have a serious problem on our hands, and it unfair to both parties. I don't know what the thinking behind this decision was, but as long as there is this ideological and military struggle taking place, it will only get worse before it gets better.
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