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asadxyz
07-11-2007, 06:44 PM
:sl:

A scientist's interpretations of reference to embryology in the Qur'an
Reference to embryology in the Qur'an
By Keith L. Moore, Ph.D., F.I.A.C.

Statements referring to human reproduction and development are scattered throughout the Qur'ân. It is only recently that the scientific meaning of some of these verses has been appreciated fully. The long delay in interpreting these verses correctly resulted mainly from inaccurate translations and commentaries and from a lack of awareness of scientific knowledge.

Interest in explanations of the verses of the Qur'ân is not new. People used to ask the prophet Muhammad all sorts of questions about the meaning of verses referring to human reproduction. The Apostle's answers form the basis of the Ahaadeeth literature.

The translations(*) of the verses from the Qur'ân which are interpreted in this paper were provided by Sheik Abdul Majid Zendani, a Professor of Islamic Studies in King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.

"He makes you in the wombs of your mothers in stages, one after another, in three veils of darkness."

This statement is from Surah. We do not know when it was realized that human beings underwent development in the uterus (womb), but the first known illustration of a fetus in the uterus was drawn by Leonardo da Vinci in the 15th century. In the 2nd century A. D., Galen described the placenta and fetal membranes in his book "On The Formation of the Fetus." Consequently, doctors in the 7th century A. D. likely knew that the human embryo developed in the uterus. It is unlikely that they knew that it developed in stages, even though Aristotle had described the stages of development of the chick embryo in the 4th century B. C. The realization that the human embryo develops in stages was not discussed and illustrated until the 15th century.

After the microscope was discovered in the 17th century by Leeuwenhoek descriptions were made of the early stages of the chick embryo. The staging of human embryos was not described until the 20th century. Streeter (1941) developed the first system of staging which has now been replaced by a more accurate system proposed by O'Rahilly
(1972).

"The three veils of darkness" may refer to:

the anterior abdominal wall;

the uterine wall; and

the amniochorionic membrane

(Fig. 1). Although there are other interpretations of this statement, the one presented here seems the most logical from an embryological point of view.


The "veils of darkness" are:

the anterior abdominal wall;

the uterine wall, and

the amniochorionic membrane.

This statement is from Surah. The drop or Nutfah has been interpreted as the sperm or spermatozoon, but a more meaningful interpretation would be the zygote which divides to form a blastocyst which is implanted in the uterus ("a place of rest"). This interpretation is supported by another verse in the Qur'ân which states that "a human being is created from a mixed drop." The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum ("The mixed drop").

"Then We made the drop into a leech-like structure."
This statement is from Surah. The word "Alaqah" refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech (Fig. 2). As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat.

"Then of that leech-like structure, We made a chewed lump." This statement is also from Surah 23:14. The Arabic word "Mudghah" means "chewed substance or chewed lump." Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh

The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae.

"Then We made out of the chewed lump, bones, and clothed the bones in flesh." This continuation of Surah 23:14 indicates that out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.

"Then We developed out of it another creature."

This next part of Surah 23:14 implies that the bones and muscles result in the formation of another creature. This may refer to the human-like embryo that forms by the end of the eighth week. At this stage it has distinctive human characteristics and possesses the primordia of all the internal and external organs and parts. After the eighth week, the human embryo is called a fetus. This may be the new creature to which the verse refers.

"And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding."

This part of Surah 32:9 indicates that the special senses of hearing, seeing, and feeling develop in this order, which is true. The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.
"Then out of a piece of chewed flesh, partly formed and partly unformed."

This part of Surah 22:5 seems to indicate that the embryo is composed of both differentiated and undifferentiated tissues. For example, when the cartilage bones are differentiated, the embryonic connective tissue or mesenchyme around them is undifferentiated. It later differentiates into the muscles and ligaments attached to the bones.

"And We cause whom We will to rest in the wombs for an appointed term." This next part of Surah 22:5 seems to imply that God determines which embryos will remain in the uterus until full term. It is well known that many embryos abort during the first month of development, and that only about 30% of zygotes that form, develop into fetuses that survive until birth. This verse has also been interpreted to mean that God determines whether the embryo will develop into a boy or girl.

The interpretation of the verses in the Qur'ân referring to human development would not have been possible in the 7th century A. D., or even a hundred years ago. We can interpret them now because the science of modern Embryology affords us new understanding. Undoubtedly there are other verses in the Qur'ân related to human development that will be understood in the future as our knowledge increases.

(*) Even though the translations of the verses of the Qur'ân in the above paper were provided by Sheik Abdul Majid Zendani, the links to the translations in this page are from Yusuf Ali Qur'ân Translation: http://qibla.msa.upenn .edu/alim_online/yali_trans/ yasurahl.htm presented by the Alim Online since Sheikh Zendani's translation is not available on the internet. (MSA- UTK)

Keith L. Moore is Professor of Anatomy and Associate Dean Basic Sciences, Faculty of Medicine, University of Toronto, Toronto, Ont. M55 IAB, Canada
Source: The Journal of the Islamic Medical Association, Vol. 18, Jan- June 1986, pp. 15-16

SOURCE; http://www.milligazette.com/Archives...3101200569.htm
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Basirah
07-11-2007, 08:44 PM
Dear Asad, theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more.

Pre-Islamic Arabia definitely had contact with Byzantium, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and Babylon. There were many Jews and Christians living in the area, and they were familiar with Greek or Roman philosophy. The Christians were connected to Rome. The Jews were connected to Babylon and Persia. It is easy to see how such theories regarding embryonic development may have reached Muhammad.

Warmest Regards.
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asadxyz
07-11-2007, 08:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Basirah
Dear Asad, theories of the formation of a child inside the womb was put forth by Aristotle nearly 1,000 years before the Qur'an was written. In fact Aristotle correctly described the function of the umbilical cord, something not mentioned in the Qur'an, showing that earlier philosophers were aware of such things mentioned by Muhammad and more.

Pre-Islamic Arabia definitely had contact with Byzantium, Syria, Egypt, Persia, and Babylon. There were many Jews and Christians living in the area, and they were familiar with Greek or Roman philosophy. The Christians were connected to Rome. The Jews were connected to Babylon and Persia. It is easy to see how such theories regarding embryonic development may have reached Muhammad.

Warmest Regards.
Peace:
Keith L Moor is an authority on the subject.He is an anatomist and athour of many books on Embryology and Anatomy like "Developing Human" ,"Before you were born" and "Clinical Anatomy"
If you have proof of anything whatever is mentioned in the Quran was already existing ,Bring forward .
He is stressing that Quran described the microscopic stages which were not known at all at that time
Mabrook
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Basirah
07-11-2007, 08:57 PM
If you buy Moore’s latest sixth edition University textbook called "The developing human", he actually directs his readers to read an essay by Basim Musallam (B. Musallam, The human embryo in Arabic scientific and religious thought, in, G. R. Dunstan (ed.) (University of Exeter Press, 1990) The human embryo: Aristotle and the Arabic and European traditions, pp. 32-46) In 1983 Basim Musallam, Director of the Centre of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge concluded, "The stages of development which the Qur'an and Hadith established for believers agreed perfectly with Galen's scientific account....There is no doubt that medieval thought appreciated this agreement between the Qur'an and Galen, for Arabic science employed the same Qur'anic terms to describe the Galenic stages" (B. Musallam (Cambridge, 1983) Sex and Society in Islam. p. 54)

Yajeboo an athhaba al aan!

and Warmest Regards! :peace:
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جوري
07-11-2007, 08:58 PM
my answer from the other thread can work here to.. mere recycled and rehashed rhetoric, we might as well recycle along...
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post789356
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wilberhum
07-11-2007, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Peace:
Keith L Moor is an authority on the subject.He is an anatomist and athour of many books on Embryology and Anatomy like "Developing Human" ,"Before you were born" and "Clinical Anatomy"
If you have proof of anything whatever is mentioned in the Quran was already existing ,Bring forward .
He is stressing that Quran described the microscopic stages which were not known at all at that time
Mabrook
Ya but Keith L Moor were paid to find things that pleased the Saudi's. :-[

It is along the line that Creation Science uses.
This supports my conclusion, keep it.
That doesn't support my conclusion, disregard it.
No objective to say the least. :-\

But the believers just eat it up like candy. :D
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asadxyz
07-11-2007, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Basirah
If you buy Moore’s latest sixth edition University textbook called "The developing human", he actually directs his readers to read an essay by Basim Musallam (B. Musallam, The human embryo in Arabic scientific and religious thought, in, G. R. Dunstan (ed.) (University of Exeter Press, 1990) The human embryo: Aristotle and the Arabic and European traditions, pp. 32-46) In 1983 Basim Musallam, Director of the Centre of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge concluded, "The stages of development which the Qur'an and Hadith established for believers agreed perfectly with Galen's scientific account....There is no doubt that medieval thought appreciated this agreement between the Qur'an and Galen, for Arabic science employed the same Qur'anic terms to describe the Galenic stages" (B. Musallam (Cambridge, 1983) Sex and Society in Islam. p. 54)

Yajeboo an athhaba al aan!

and Warmest Regards! :peace:
Peace/Salaam;
A few questions
  1. where is this book available ? (At least not available at Amazon or Barnes and Noble)
  2. How was Galen able to evaluate these microscopic stages with this accuracy?


For Wilburhum :
Ya but Keith L Moor were paid to find things that pleased the Saudi's.
In this way you can reject anything. Proof ?? Nill
خَتَمَ اللّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ

(2:7) Allah has sealed up their hearts and ears and a covering has fallen over their eyes
Mabrook
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Basirah
07-12-2007, 04:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Peace/Salaam;
A few questions
  1. where is this book available ? (At least not available at Amazon or Barnes and Noble)
  2. How was Galen able to evaluate these microscopic stages with this accuracy?
Dear asad,

To answer your first question, the book can be found on amazon.com right HERE.

Your second question, someone who is knowledgable in this specific field could easily answer such a question. I will not pretend to have knowledge that I do not have.

Regards
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asadxyz
07-12-2007, 04:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Basirah
Dear asad,

To answer your first question, the book can be found on amazon.com right HERE.

Your second question, someone who is knowledgable in this specific field could easily answer such a question. I will not pretend to have knowledge that I do not have.

Regards
Peace :
I have the book "Developing Human" though it is not that edition.I was looking for some "Galen" book which you people are claiming is the source of Quranic information.
Secondly it is a question of common sense.Knowledge has only two sources
  1. Divine revelation
  2. Humane effort by using sensory system

Early embryonic stages are absolutely beyond macroscopic limits.These are microscopic structures.Now
  1. Either Galen had Divine relevation just like Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
  2. Or He had microscope
  3. Or all of this story that Galen had discovered all these stages is fictitious .


Let me know if there is any fourth possiblity.Otherwise you have to adopt any one of these three options.
Mabrook
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Basirah
07-12-2007, 04:58 AM
Are you looking for this book which I cited?

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Society-Is.../dp/0521248744

To your second question, I am afraid the narrow view you are looking at it from is simply not true. There are other ways that it could have been done, and he must have used one of these ways. If not, then your attributing his recorded study to divine revelation. If you wish I will research it.

PS: I would also advise you to read my first post again.

Regards
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Basirah
07-12-2007, 05:05 AM
Ya but Keith L Moor were paid to find things that pleased the Saudi's.
That is a argumentum ad hominem, which is a logical fallacy. It is easy enough to address the claims my friend, so stooping to that level is immature.
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asadxyz
07-12-2007, 05:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Basirah
Are you looking for this book which I cited?

http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Society-Is.../dp/0521248744

To your second question, I am afraid the narrow view you are looking at it from is simply not true. There are other ways that it could have been done, and he must have used one of these ways. If not, then your attributing his recorded study to divine revelation. If you wish I will research it.

Regards
Peace;
I was lookink for Galen's work.
Please do let me know How Galen was able to see the microscopic structure without a microscope.That will be of great help.Because many will benefitted because of this unique method.
Following paragraph is worth noting;
From: Stephen Wolfram, A New Kind of Science
Notes for Chapter 8: Implications for Everyday Systems
Section: Growth of Plants and Animals
Page 1010

History of embryology. General issues of embryology were already discussed in Greek times, notably by Hippocrates and Aristotle. But even in the 1700s it was still thought that perhaps every embryo started from a very small version of a complete organism. In the 1800s, however, detailed studies revealed the progressive development of complexity in the growth of an embryo. At the end of the 1800s experiments based on removing or modifying parts of early embryos began, and by the 1920s it had been discovered that there were definite pieces of embryos that were responsible for inducing various aspects of development to occur. That concentrations of diffusing chemicals might define where in an embryo different elements would form was first suggested in the early 1900s, but it was not until the 1970s and 1980s - after it was emphasized by Lewis Wolpert in 1969 under the name "positional information" - that there was clear experimental investigation of this idea. From the 1930s and before, it was known that different genes are involved in different aspects of embryo development. And with the advent of gene manipulation methods in the 1970s and 1980s, it became possible to investigate the genetic control of development in organisms such as fruit flies in tremendous detail. Among the important discoveries made were the homeobox genes (see note above).
Source:http://www.wolframscience.com/reference/notes/1010a
Mabrook
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Basirah
07-12-2007, 05:46 AM
Is this of any help to you at all my friend?



English translation:

But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails (Arabic nutfah). At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood (Arabic alaqa), and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts (Arabic mudghah). You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches. The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed (Arabic ‘a new creation’) ...

... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow. (Corpus Medicorum Graecorum: Galeni de Semine (Galen: On Semen) [Greek text with English trans. Phillip de Lacy, Akademic Verlag, 1992) section I:9:1-10 pp. 92-95, 101]


Regards.
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Trumble
07-12-2007, 07:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Please do let me know How Galen was able to see the microscopic structure without a microscope.That will be of great help.Because many will benefitted because of this unique method.
I think you are probably headed for a dead end here.

The Greeks couldn't have seen microscopic objects such as individual sperm and eggs so unsurprisingly they did not describe them. But neither does the Quran, referring only to seminal fluid. Only the first stage would need a microscope, after that (i.e from 'leech like clot' onwards) careful observation - I hate to mention dissection again - blame Galen! - would have been perfectly adequate.
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asadxyz
07-12-2007, 07:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Basirah
Is this of any help to you at all my friend?

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2870/galentr3.png

English translation:

But let us take the account back again to the first conformation of the animal, and in order to make our account orderly and clear, let us divide the creation of the foetus overall into four periods of time. The first is that in which. as is seen both in abortions and in dissection, the form of the semen prevails (Arabic nutfah). At this time, Hippocrates too, the all-marvelous, does not yet call the conformation of the animal a foetus; as we heard just now in the case of semen voided in the sixth day, he still calls it semen. But when it has been filled with blood (Arabic alaqa), and heart, brain and liver are still unarticulated and unshaped yet have by now a certain solidarity and considerable size, this is the second period; the substance of the foetus has the form of flesh and no longer the form of semen. Accordingly you would find that Hippocrates too no longer calls such a form semen but, as was said, foetus. The third period follows on this, when, as was said, it is possible to see the three ruling parts clearly and a kind of outline, a silhouette, as it were, of all the other parts (Arabic mudghah). You will see the conformation of the three ruling parts more clearly, that of the parts of the stomach more dimly, and much more still, that of the limbs. Later on they form "twigs", as Hippocrates expressed it, indicating by the term their similarity to branches. The fourth and final period is at the stage when all the parts in the limbs have been differentiated; and at this part Hippocrates the marvelous no longer calls the foetus an embryo only, but already a child, too when he says that it jerks and moves as an animal now fully formed (Arabic ‘a new creation’) ...

... The time has come for nature to articulate the organs precisely and to bring all the parts to completion. Thus it caused flesh to grow on and around all the bones, and at the same time ... it made at the ends of the bones ligaments that bind them to each other, and along their entire length it placed around them on all sides thin membranes, called periosteal, on which it caused flesh to grow. (Corpus Medicorum Graecorum: Galeni de Semine (Galen: On Semen) [Greek text with English trans. Phillip de Lacy, Akademic Verlag, 1992) section I:9:1-10 pp. 92-95, 101]


Regards.
Peace;
what is the authenticity of this version whether really it is written by Galen no one has concocted in 20th century ??
Mabrook
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Trumble
07-12-2007, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by asadxyz
Peace;
what is the authenticity of this version whether really it is written by Galen no one has concocted in 20th century ??
Mabrook
I can find no evidence anyone has ever disputed its authenticity, although that of a couple of assigned works is more dubious. Even those date from late antiquity and the early medieval period. If somebody concocted it in the 20th century, they must have a time machine;

http://www.library.upenn.edu/collections

Near the bottom of the page. I haven't read it of course; I assume those 'scholars' debating this point might have noticed if the text had mysteriously changed!
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جوري
07-13-2007, 02:03 AM
The genetics in the Quran is courtesy if Galen
The geology in the Quran is courtesy ( I am sure something will come up)
the high Altitude hypoxia in the Quran a mere guess
The Gender of the female worker bee unbeknownst to Shakespeare just a few centuries ago but mentioned in the Quran a lucky 50/50 guess
A'ad and Thamud, must have been known to the people at the time
Rights of inheritance state laws, politics and economics of a country also all stolen
Prophet Luqman and Ahel al-kahf since not mentioned in previous scriptures is mere quackery
Rose Nebula only documented by NASA very recently also mentioned in the Quran.. must have been a day time sighting
the sheer poetry of every sura in the Quran though some revealed 22 years apart to follow in sequence, rhyme, meaning were written by great poets..
prophet Mohammed PBUH just enjoyed sleeping on an empty stomach and pawning his armor due to poverty... makes you wonder why go to such lengths?
Thank you Trumble et al for solving all the mysteries of the Quran.. now with great success.. what will be your next project? perhaps we can show you the exit? I see you have accomplished it all and don't see room for any fruitful debates.. just fecund little manifestos courtesy of a bunch of self elected pseudo intellects...
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Trumble
07-13-2007, 04:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Rose Nebula only documented by NASA very recently also mentioned in the Quran..
You aren't still clinging to that one! :D :D :D Oh dear, oh dear !!
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جوري
07-13-2007, 05:03 AM
pls whip it out of me!
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