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ansar.tajudeen
07-23-2007, 07:04 AM
Sunrise from the West


Get ready, be prepared......

Please read, very interesting article.

The science of astronomy states that the speed of planet Mars has been decreasing in its course toward the eastern direction in the few past weeks to the level we notice the "waver" between the east and the west..and on Wednesday the 30th of July the planet movement stopped going toward the eastern direction..

Then in the months of August and September...Mars changed its course in the opposite direction to the West- and that until the end of September..which means the sun will rise now from the west on Mars!!

And this weird phenomena of the opposite movement called "Retrograde Motion" Most scientist state that all the planets will go through the same once at least and our planet Earth is one of them. Planet Earth will move in the opposite direction some day and the sun will rise from the west!!


This might occur soon and we are unaware!


The rise of the sun from the west is mentioned in the hadith and this is the major sign of the day of judgment, most if not All, the minor signs have occurred. Wake up.

Our beloved messenger Mohamed (Peace Be Upon Him) said: "One of the signs of the hour..the sun will rise from the west, where no longer tauba (forgiveness) will be granted" !!

And the strange thing..most of our Shariah scholars mentioned that the rise of the sun from the west occurs only once..on that day..the sun will rise from the west..then again from the east..and continues until Allah wishes..and this is similar to what is happening to Mars..it stops, then it changes its course of direction for a short period of time..then returns to way once it was.

And Abdullah Bin Amro (R.A.) said: (I memorized from the messenger (SAW) a hadith I will never forget..I heard the messenger of Allah (SAW) say: The first aya to come the rise of the sun ! ! from the west) [Ahmad]

And the messenger SAW "Allah (SWT) places HIS hand at night to forgive his morning sinners, and places in the morning to forgive his night sinners until the sun rises from the west" [Muslim]

This piece of news is very important as it brings with it a great sign of warning and remembrance of the coming of a new WORLD - the world of the Hereafter And it is also good material for calling others to ALLAH s.w.t. -
whether for Muslims, the unwary of us or the kufar. When we show this hadith that was told 1400 years ago about this miracle..you will see InshaALLAH, a lot will enter this beautiful religion...And the Muslims if they see this phenomena happening in Mars..who knows maybe it would bring them closer to our CREATOR.

May Allah (swt) keep all of us in the Right path and provide us with success in this world as well as in the hereafter.
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guyabano
07-23-2007, 07:42 AM
That will never happen. It is simply impossible, that the earth stop to rotate around the sun (which is btw also just a star among other billions), because of the gravity !

Rotation speed (centrifugal energy) of earth and the gravity of the sun keep since billions of years its balance, and if earth would stop to rotate, f. ex., what you mention to change it's rotation way, the earth would simply crash into the sun.

What will sure happen someday is, that the earth will lose its moon. It is scientifically been mesured by laser, that the distance earth-moon grow every year. At one specific day, the centrifugal energy of the moon will be higher than the gravity of the earth, and the moon will start its journey in deep space !

Out of Wikipedia:

The angular diameters of the Moon and the Sun as seen from Earth overlap in their variation, so that both total and annular solar eclipses are possible.[49] In a total eclipse, the Moon completely covers the disc of the Sun and the solar corona becomes visible to the naked eye. Since the distance between the Moon and the Earth is very slightly increasing over time, the angular diameter of the Moon is decreasing. This means that hundreds of millions of years ago the Moon could always completely cover the Sun on solar eclipses so that no annular eclipses were possible. Likewise, about 600 million years from now (assuming that the angular diameter of the Sun will not change), the Moon will no longer cover the Sun completely and only annular eclipses will occur.[47]
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Intisar
07-23-2007, 07:55 AM
Jazakallah Khayr for this information, may Allah (SWT) reward for it. Ameen to your Dua as well. :)
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Trumble
07-23-2007, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ansar.tajudeen
Planet Earth will move in the opposite direction some day and the sun will rise from the west!!

This might occur soon and we are unaware!

Nonsense. That's a hopeless misunderstanding of what retrograde motion is. Nothing changes direction of orbit, it's just a visual effect than can arise due to the relative motion of the planets.

I found this nice little video thingie that demonstrates it nicely; retrograde motion
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DAWUD_adnan
07-23-2007, 09:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Nonsense. That's a hopeless misunderstanding of what retrograde motion is. Nothing changes direction of orbit, it's just a visual effect than can arise due to the relative motion of the planets.

I found this nice little video thingie that demonstrates it nicely; retrograde motion
but this still wouldnt stop the sun from appearing to us, to rise from the west would it...:rolleyes:
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Trumble
07-23-2007, 10:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
but this still wouldnt stop the sun from appearing to us, to rise from the west would it...
Good grief. Try actually watching it, concentrating just on the earth and the sun. :rollseyes
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Skillganon
07-23-2007, 10:41 PM
Assalam alaikum wr wb

Yeah this is Just a theory with no basis....and their is no proof in the Quran and sunnah that this is the way it is going to happen.

It is too often that anyone amkes certain claim on the Quran from numerical miracle (number 19) of the Quran to the Speed of Light.

So Muslim should not rely on such information (Retrograde motion). It is too often certain falsehood are propageted, and it does not help in spreading the information.

Especially with the modern technology such as Internet and mobile text message you see this to often.

I hope bro Ansar Tajudan don't take this as any kind of offense and rather understand.

p.s Trumble is correct there.
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جوري
07-23-2007, 10:48 PM
At some point indeed the earth shall change its orientation with respect to the sun ( very possible the north pole will be in the south and vice versa).. --the verse -- 'bal houm fi shakken yal3aboon'..comes to mind when browsing through some of what I personally consider 'wild farcical exuberance of clowns'-- here is a nice article about possibleness for the earth's future.. might bit different from what is proposed above but certainly a rise from the west is possible under physical laws..
http://www.binaryresearchinstitute.o...nce/vlbi.shtml

:w:
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Abdul Fattah
07-23-2007, 10:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
That will never happen. It is simply impossible, that the earth stop to rotate around the sun (which is btw also just a star among other billions), because of the gravity !

Rotation speed (centrifugal energy) of earth and the gravity of the sun keep since billions of years its balance, and if earth would stop to rotate, f. ex., what you mention to change it's rotation way, the earth would simply crash into the sun.

What will sure happen someday is, that the earth will lose its moon. It is scientifically been mesured by laser, that the distance earth-moon grow every year. At one specific day, the centrifugal energy of the moon will be higher than the gravity of the earth, and the moon will start its journey in deep space !

Out of Wikipedia:
There's a lot to say, first of all there's no reason to assume this proces goes according to scientific laws, it could happen as a supernatural miracle.

Second if this couldn't happen, how do you explain mars?

Third, there are more factors in play in the movement of earth besides the Coriolis force (centrifuge as you call it).
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united
07-23-2007, 11:22 PM
I've come accross this as meaning that Islam will rise from the west. This is precisely what is happening today, ie. the mass reversion of people in America despite the largely negative press that Islam gets.
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Woodrow
07-23-2007, 11:25 PM
:sl:

The truth of the matter is, it is very easy to make gross errors when trying to use the Qur'an as a text book for a physics book. While it is true that the truth will not contradict anything written in the Qur'an, it does not necessarily follow that we should attempt to use the Qur'an to explain physical phenomena. Until we know the precise physical facts we can not understand how anything in the Qur'an can explain them. we have to remember the Qur'an is intended to be understood by all people in all times. The words are true, but we can not limit ourselves into thinking it is a book intended to explain all things under all conditions.

If we see the sun rise in the west we do not need to know how it occurred, we need only know that is prophesied in the Qur'an. we do not need to worry about the mechanics or if it is an illusion. So what if it is an impossibility by our current understanding of physics, Allah(swt) is not limited by our knowledge. we do know that someday people will see the sun rise from the West, none of us can say when that will be, we just know it will happen.

Actually it is not as strange or as impossible as it seems. It may have happened in the past several times. Our wobble could very well have been much stronger in the past and the earth may have flipped 180 degrees several times. Biologicaly there is some indication. There is fossil sea life(This is the only example I can recall,[he morphology and fine structure of the species has
been illustrated and discussed by other workers (Wor-
nardt, 1971; Fryxell and Hasle, 1974; Ross and Sims,
1974), so that only a few remarks need be made here.
The nature of the loculi remains unclear—from an in-
ternal view the structure is that of uniform foramina
across the sectors (Fryxell and Hasle, 1974), but exter-
nally the structure is more complex. Ross and Sims
(1974)call it an external velum with a network of costae,
while Fryxell and Hasle (1974) call it "a developing loc-
ulus pattern," so that position of the cribrum, if any,
remains uncertain. The loculi of specimens from Site
532 give the impression of an external cribrum (set of
perforations) that has been depressed into each loculus
(Plate 3, Figs. 1, 3). In high magnification the pattern of
perforations appears to spiral downward into the locu-
lus (Plate 3, Fig. 4), with the direction of the spiral
(clockwise or the reverse)
varying from one to the next.] Source:http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a I do remember other things beside diatoms, but can not think of the name of the critters) that has a spiral structure the exact opposite than todays forms have and we are certain the spiral formations are directed by the earths rotation and the only explanation is the Earth flipped 180 degrees.
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Abdul Fattah
07-23-2007, 11:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by united
I've come accross this as meaning that Islam will rise from the west. This is precisely what is happening today, ie. the mass reversion of people in America despite the largely negative press that Islam gets.
I've heard of such claims to, but most scholars disagree with that, and for good reason, if you look at the detailed hadeeth it is very clear that the sun actually means physical sun, like in a star, that big yellow thing that emits heat and radiation and stuff and is not meant as a metaphor for something else. And allah subhana wa ta'ala knows best.
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Trumble
07-24-2007, 12:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I do remember other things beside diatoms, but can not think of the name of the critters) that has a spiral structure the exact opposite than todays forms have and we are certain the spiral formations are directed by the earths rotation and the only explanation is the Earth flipped 180 degrees.
Do you have a source for that? To me it doesn't make sense. Even if the earth "flipped 180 degrees" it would make no difference at all in the sense you suggest to something sitting on it. The actual direction of rotation around its axis would have to physically reverse ... there is no way that can happen. Bar divine intervention, anyway.
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جوري
07-24-2007, 06:52 AM
to the original poster... very good article.. I found a whole bunch of sites on this topic.. and actually appreciate you piquing my curiosity..
Jazak Allah khyran.l thought you'd get a kick out of this-- it has nice animations as well...

http://www.scienceu.com/observatory/...tro/retro.html

The retrograde motion of planets
Looking at the sky, night after night, man no doubt noticed very early that most of the brilliant dots he could see there retained their relative position. A triangle in that corner looked pretty much the same next night, and the night after that; and the same could be said of most of the figures he saw. But there were a few dots that moved against the fixed background of stars. These no doubt provoked great curiosity, and were the subject of very careful scrutiny. The ancient greeks dubbed them wanderers for their relative rambling behavior, and it is from this greek term that their modern name comes: Planets.

The simplest model to explain the motion of the planets has them, along with the Moon and the Sun (the other two wandering objects in the sky), moving in circles, centered around a fixed Earth. This model explains why these celestial objects move against the background of the stars, but there were some oddities in their movements that were not well explained by it.

One of the most notable of these behaviors has to be the retrograde motion of the planets. Planets, as we noted, move relative to the stars, and they do so, generally, moving from west to east in the sky. If we look at the sky, at the same time of the night on two different nights, we will generally notice that the planets have moved a little to the east. But every once in a while, a planet will do something funny: it will slow down its motion, will appear to "stop" for a short while, and will then start moving in the opposite direction, to the west. Eventually, it will stop again, and resume its movement towards the east.

It was unacceptable that a planet would stop in its track and reverse its motion along its circular paths for a short while, to reverse them once again a while later. So, clearly, a better model was needed. Ptolemy devised the most sophisticated of these models that still kept the Earth as the center (so called geocentric models, although to account for other, subtler, irregularities, in his model the Earth was no longer at the exact center). One of its basic ideas was that planets were carried on a small circle (called the epicycle, whose center moves along another, larger, circle around the Earth, called the deferent.

This model worked well as far as retrograde motion was concerned, since when the planet is in the lower part of the epicycle it is moving in the opposite direction as viewed from the earth. But, as mentioned above, there were subtler oddities that needed to be taken into account, too, and Ptolemy was forced to introduce more and more complications into his model to attempt to explain them. The model grew rather complicated and cumbersome to use, but still reproduced the actual motions well enough that it remained in use for over 1400 years.

Around the year 1540, Copernicus offered a different kind of model, a heliocentric one, where the center was occupied no longer by the Earth, but by the Sun.

In Copernicus' model, planets still moved in circles, so he still needed to use some epicycles; but these, now, were only to explain the subtler irregularities. Retrograde motions arise from the combined motions of the planets and the Earth. Copernicus reasoned that planets further away from the sun would move more slowly than closer ones. As a faster planet overtakes the Earth in their rotations, its motion against the stars, as seen from the Earth, reverses. Look, for example, at the next figure:


As we view the moving Venus from the more slowly moving Earth, the line of sight (i.e., where in the sky, relative to the stars, we will see Venus) reverses its motion: it is first rotating counterclockwise, then (near the fourth and fifth position) starts rotating clockwise. This corresponds to the first reversal of apparent motion. A while later (around the ninth position) it starts rotating again in a counterclockwise direction, resulting in the second reversal. The same explanation works for the outer planets, too, only now it is the Earth that overtakes the other planet.
And here is another site about the retrograde motion of Mars...
http://www.space.com/spacewatch/mars...de_030725.html

As Mars has grown closer and brighter daily for several months, it has gradually moved easterly in relation to background stars in the pre-dawn sky. That's about to change as the red planet begins to backpedal in our sky, moving steadily westward.

Astronomers call this backward motion "retrograde." The shift comes as Mars is gradually becoming visible in the late evening, too, just in time for the historic close approach to Earth that will occur in late August.

Mars is already rising before midnight, blazing in the southeast skies like a pale red or sometimes yellowish-orange lantern.

At the beginning of this year, Mars was 191 million miles (306 million kilometers) from Earth. This week, the distance will drop to less than 40 million miles (64 million kilometers).

Mars now shines some 30 times brighter than it did on New Year's Day.


From Above: See how Earth catches up with Mars on the inner track, in this animation of the solar system. Animation runs from Jan. 8 to Aug. 28, 2003.

From Earth: A second animation shows Mars getting bigger as it and Earth get closer during 2003. In astronomers' parlance, Mars increases from an angular size of 4.7 arcseconds in January to 25 arcseconds in August, as seen from Earth.

Animations created using Starry Night software

Since Jan. 1, the red planet has progressed along an easterly course through the background stars of the Zodiac. The motion is not noticeable in a single morning, but could be detected from one to the next by astute observers.

For the past few weeks, Mars has appeared to slow in its eastward trajectory, almost seeming to waver, as if it had become uncertain.

On Wednesday, July 30, that steady eastward course will come to a stop. Then, for the next two months, the planet will move backward against the star background - toward the west. On Sept. 29 it will pause again before resuming its normal eastward direction.

All the planets exhibit retrograde motion at one time or another. Ancient astronomers were unable to come up with a satisfactory explanation for it. The motion is tricky. For one thing, while behaving in this strange manner, Mars will also appear to deviate somewhat from its normal course; the retrograde motion will appear to bring it a little below its regular orbital track.

In other words, as seen from Earth, Mars will appear to travel in a loop.

Yet the Greeks staunchly believed that the Sun, Moon and planets all moved around the Earth in perfect circles. They had a great difficulty in representing and calculating this mysterious loop and for a long time they had no adequate explanation for it.

The Greeks finally explained away this anomaly by assuming that the planets moved around the Earth in smaller "epicycles" - that is, a small circle whose center moves along its main orbital circle around Earth, resulting in complex, almost coil-like curves. Unfortunately, the actual observations of the planets never seemed to fit this strange orbital mechanism, ultimately making the Greeks explanation quite useless.

It was not until the year 1543 when the great Polish astronomer, Nicolaus Copernicus (1473-1543), had his lifelong work "De revolutionibus" published, that the secret of the odd retrograde loops were finally revealed.

By demoting the Earth from its hallowed position at the center of the solar system and replacing it with the Sun, Copernicus was able to triumphantly explain the riddle of the apparent "backwards motion effect" of the planets.

It's the same effect obtained when one car passes another on the highway: both cars are going in the same direction, but one is moving more slowly. To an observer with no other reference points, as they pass, the slower car will appear to be moving backward in relation to the faster one. Copernicus simply applied the same effect (though he probably wasn't thinking of automobiles) to the planets out in space.

Use your computer to visualize Mars' retrograde motion.



Right now, both Earth and Mars are moving in the same direction around the Sun, but the slower one - Mars - appears to move backwards compared to the faster one, the Earth.

This backward motion will manifest itself after Mars arrives at its first stationary point on July 30. Mars will then begin to loop back toward the west. Earth will overtake Mars on Aug. 28.

Finally, on Sept. 29, the combined movements of Earth and Mars will cancel-out the apparent backward motion, with Mars reaching a second stationary point. From then on, Mars will loop back to the east, resuming its normal path among the stars.

Mars Watch: Full Coverage of the Event
The Science Behind the Close Approach
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guyabano
07-24-2007, 08:07 AM
Topic 'Retrograde motion' of planets:

Retrograde motion

The retrograde motion of a planet is its apparent backward motion through the sky caused by the earth travelling past a slower moving outer planet, or when the earth is itself passed by a faster moving inner planet. For secondary progression or the day-for-a-year method, retrograde motion means that progressing a planet forward one day in time leads to the planet's moving 'backwards' in the chart in an anti-clockwise fashion. In astrology this backward movement was traditionally thought to be unlucky or inauspicious, as it went against the 'natural' order of movement (or 'direct movement' as it is known), and a planet which was retrograde at the time of birth was considered a weak spot in the natal chart.

Most modern astrologers do consider the retrograde movement of a planet to be indicative of stress or difficulty, although this is usually mentioned only with regard to transiting planets. For example, the retrograde movement of Mercury is commonly thought to signify difficulties in communication, such as post or emails going astray, verbal misunderstandings, and travel delays and frustrations. Some astrologers however, do not regard the change from direct to retrograde motion as automatically being one to repression and limitation (nor the reverse sudden release). Rather a change in either direction of movement is regarded by them as simply indicating a shift in a person's handling of that part of their life. In fact, many astrologers do not consider retrograde movement to be of any particular significance, especially given that the outer planets are retrograde for over 40% of the time. The full implications, if any, of retrograde motion in progressed planets appears to remain relatively little understood.


In a few words: Even if this retrograd moving would occur, it would not influent the sunrise/sunset of the earth.

For that the sun rise in the west across the sky and set in the east (which was initially the topic), the rotation of the earth itself must change, and this will not happen !

What is discussed here actually is the clockwise/counterclockwise rotation of planets towards the sun seen from the earth. But still, they don't change 'rotation' itself, but it is just an opitcal phenomen. Planets just have different rotation speeds around the sun.
That is because of the gravity of the sun. The closer a planet is to the sun, the faster it must rotate in order to stay in orbit.
That's why, Planets have always different locations in our sky each passing day and appear as if they spin suddenly in a opposite direction. But reality is, they just overtake us, or the earth did, according to the distance to the sun !

PurestAmbrosia gave a nice link which illustrate it perfectly:



That's it !
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جوري
07-24-2007, 01:57 PM
I believe that latter part of your post is your own conclusion Guyabano's and not that of an astro-physicist! --- irregardless, it will take a lot more than a non-professional opinion to sway our beliefs one way or the other...Who knows what natural disasters sway the laws of physics?... one other signs of judgement day, would be the desert of the Yemenite region to return back a fortress to its former glory... and something in the way of a Tsunami has and is indeed changing the climate and soil of that region.. glory to him, of whom everything in the heaven's and earth submit and relegate their destiny and will!...

  • Behold! In the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the Night and the Day; in the sailing of the ships through the Ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds and the clouds which they trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth, (here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise. [2.164]


p.s--I know Quranic verses don't have any impact on you-- so I posted it for the muslims who am sure will re-appreciate it-- thanks!

peace!

:w:
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guyabano
07-24-2007, 02:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I believe that latter part of your post is your own conclusion Guyabano's and not that of an astro-physicist! --- irregardless, it will take a lot more than a non-professional opinion to sway our beliefs one way or the other...Who knows what natural disasters sway the laws of physics?... one other signs of judgement day, would be the desert of the Yemenite region to return back a fortress to its former glory... and something in the way of a Tsunami has and is indeed changing the climate and soil of that region.. glory to him, of whom everything in the heaven's and earth submit and relegate their destiny and will!...
Yes, about the verses, you are right. I put no effort in reading verses.
This is not my conclusions, it is simple and plain physical explanation.

Anyway, if there is one thing I learned since I'm active in this forum: A thing/phenomene which cannot/don't like to be explained by logic is automatically God's Work ! And I'm not complaining about it, I just find it refreshing :D
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جوري
07-24-2007, 03:13 PM
I have dedicated a great deal of my life to science 13 yrs to be exact, since I was a teenager... and if there one thing I have learned through my years... is physiology of the human body/physics in the natural world will only take you so far.. you'd actually have to dedicate your life to that field to realize that at the end of every sentence, every theory, every event there can only be Allah not just the things where doubt is cast...
But we delegate most of the unknown phenomenon to this neat word called idiopathic.. and I can't tell you how many phenomenon whether you go deep or superficial at the then of it lies 'idiopathic'-- we simply don't know, so we ascribe neat scientifically accepted terms to not knowing!.. if you read some of my very old posts.. such as the one on retrograde menstruation causing endometriosis as hypothesized by Dr. John Sampson's, you'll realize that his theory or even others who have attempted a stab at it, haven't given us a satisfactory reason of how beyond a reasonable doubt-- of why such a phenomenon occurs in such places, as the lungs, liver or the nose .. we try.. I should say our brightest try to explain certain occurrences through observed means, and no one can adequately get to the bottom of it beyond a reasonable doubt.. If you break anything down to its common denominator, basic origin you won't have many answers.. you may always have a how and a why from the point you choose to acknowledge! but that is about as far as we can go..
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