How is it possible for god not to exist??

[hamo26]

I would like to hear from an atheist the reaqsons as to how god does not exist. It does not have to be long and can in fact be qutie brief. Please provide me with the essentials of your beliefs. Thank you

[Joe98]

If there were a god he would come for an occasional visit.

He would give us a state of the union address and keep us up to date on the latest developments in heaven and hell.

Apparently he can be everywhere at once. And yet, there are some who claim, that from time to time, he has sent angels to deliver messages. Maybe he was too busy to deliver it himself. If he can be everywhere at once why does he need angels?

Also, why does he need satan? I would have thought an all powerful god, could light an eternal fire without having to employ somebody to tend the fire?

God, angels and satan are all inventions of man
-

[hamo26]

this response is within our realm of perception though. Simply because you cdont see or hear god does not mean he hasnt come for a visit. I'm 17 but I stil am not satisfied with your answer for the following reasons:

1) You tend to personify this entity claiming that he/she should come to visit us once in a while
2) All your responses are heavily biased towards your own and a human' s ability of perception. At least the muslims I asked had a 1400 year old text to prove their points.

Let me re-model the question to make it simpler without bringing in concepts of satan, angels, etc. Lets focus on the existence of one entity and provide scientifical proof as to how god could not exist. We can touch on satan, angels, etc later on.

[ranma1/2]

I would like to hear from an atheist the reaqsons as to how god does not exist. It does not have to be long and can in fact be qutie brief. Please provide me with the essentials of your beliefs. Thank you

well there is no need for god.
Now can you give me reasons why invisible pink unicorns cant exists?

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[asadxyz]

well there is no need for god.
Now can you give me reasons why invisible pink unicorns cant exists?

Distraction as usual which is a common modes operandi of atheists.Prove non - existance of God if possilbe.Do not beat about the bush and try to circumvent the question.

[Joe98]

and provide scientifical proof as to how god could not exist.

Prove to me that Thor, the god of war does not exist. And count the number of wars in history.

Prove to me that Venus, the god of love does not exist - and see what a big part love plays in the world.

Now prove that your god exists. If you don't have a recent phot an old one will do ;D

[Uthman]

Greetings,

Prove to me that Thor, the god of war does not exist. And count the number of wars in history.

Prove to me that Venus, the god of love does not exist - and see what a big part love plays in the world.

Is there any evidence that points to their existence? (Genuine question, not trying to be funny)

:)

Regards

[vapid vagabond]

Is there any evidence that points to their existence? (Genuine question, not trying to be funny)

I think that was his point. The original question is impossible to answer in that there is no way to prove the non-existence of something. All one can do is operate on whatever proof one has for existence. The criteria for this varies widely.

[Muslim Knight]

Now can you give me reasons why invisible pink unicorns cant exists?

If they're invisible how come they're pink? They're only pink if they're visible.

[Gator]

I would like to hear from an atheist the reaqsons as to how god does not exist. It does not have to be long and can in fact be qutie brief. Please provide me with the essentials of your beliefs. Thank you

Hello.
I can only give you reasons I don't believe there is a god. Some have been discussed. They include -
1) Looking around I see no evidence of a designing hand in nature.
2) Gods described in the various holy texts, do not seem reasonable, in my opinion.
3) I feel no internal presence or have personal evidence of the existence of a god/s.

That's the basics I think.
Thanks.

[Muezzin]

Prove to me that Thor, the god of war does not exist. And count the number of wars in history.

Isn't Thor supposed to be the god of thunder according to Norse mythology? I think Mars is supposed to be the god of war (but that might be of Roman mythological origin, I'm not sure).

Hello.
I can only give you reasons I don't believe there is a god. Some have been discussed. They include -
1) Looking around I see no evidence of a designing hand in nature.
2) Gods described in the various holy texts, do not seem reasonable, in my opinion.
3) I feel no internal presence or have personal evidence of the existence of a god/s.

That's the basics I think.
Thanks.

Thank you for answering the question without resorting to sarcasm.

[Gator]

Let me re-model the question to make it simpler without bringing in concepts of satan, angels, etc. Lets focus on the existence of one entity and provide scientifical proof as to how god could not exist. We can touch on satan, angels, etc later on.

Sorry didn't see this.

Since this is a philosopical discussion and science cannot prove or disprove a god, I can't answer.

As I see it, science is only used to support or refute details of someone's philosophical stance. Like, “I think evolution is valid because there is a long (if incomplete) fossil record that shows what I believe to be transitional forms from one species to another. This contradicts the creation story from the bible, so I discount a YEC theory. (but does not discount a general non-specific God)” Or, “The universe seems to be expanding from a central point and some calculations of the total energy in the universe adds up to zero, which would support a release of energy from space folds and creating the universe in a big bang, without the need for a creator.” I think people use there views on what they believe to be scientific facts to support their supposition. Now if a scientific discovery of Noah’s ark were to occur, theists would use that to bolster their claims of a YEC God.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Keltoi]

Mars is the Roman god of war, Ares is the Greek god of war, and Thor is the Norse god of thunder and war....:) I can't "prove" they aren't real, but I don't pray to them, so they aren't real to me. That is what it boils down to. A religion becomes mythology when people no longer believe it to be true. To an athiest, they don't believe in God, so it is mythology to them.

[Trumble]

I would like to hear from an atheist the reaqsons as to how god does not exist. It does not have to be long and can in fact be qutie brief. Please provide me with the essentials of your beliefs. Thank you

1. The problem of evil. If there was a God, or at least a benevolent one, He would have made a rather better job both humanity and the world. No perfect being created something as imperfect, destructive and generally unpleasant as homo sapiens can be. I consider the only answer I have seen to this, that the whole 'life' thing is some sort of 'test', totally unconvincing and more than a little desperate.

2. God solves nothing. If God created us, who or what created God? The only answer is 'first cause' philosophical mumbo-jumbo easily countered with other philosophical mumbo-jumbo. If anyone really doesn't know the arguments by now, go look them up.

3. The obvious psychological need to create God/gods, even if there wasn't one, "if triangles believed in God, He would have three sides". Partly as an explanation for natural phenomenon, but mostly as a shelter from fear of either death or the assorted unpleasantries life can throw at us. Or just the apparent meaningless of life itself.

4. The total absence of any proof whatsoever that is there is a God. I agree with previous posters that if there was a God, you would expect to see a lot more evidence of the fact. Granted, you can't prove there isn't a God either, but then it's generally far easier to prove conclusively that something does exist (produce it!) than that it doesn't. I can't prove those unicorns don't exist either.

I've stayed away from the 'scientific' as that approach is utterly pointless. There is no 'scientific' proof, and very little 'evidence', either way. There is a not uncommon assumption on these boards that all atheists somehow became that way as a result of becoming obsessive evolution 'worshippers'.. that simply is not true. As this thread shows, most reach an atheistic position on philosophic, not scientific, grounds.

[asadxyz]

1. The problem of evil. If there was a God, or at least a benevolent one, He would have made a rather better job both humanity and the world. No perfect being created something as imperfect, destructive and generally unpleasant as homo sapiens can be. I consider the only answer I have seen to this, that the whole 'life' thing is some sort of 'test', totally unconvincing and more than a little desperate.

2. God solves nothing. If God created us, who or what created God? The only answer is 'first cause' philosophical mumbo-jumbo easily countered with other philosophical mumbo-jumbo. If anyone really doesn't know the arguments by now, go look them up.

3. The obvious psychological need to create God/gods, even if there wasn't one, "if triangles believed in God, He would have three sides". Partly as an explanation for natural phenomenon, but mostly as a shelter from fear of either death or the assorted unpleasantries life can throw at us. Or just the apparent meaningless of life itself.

4. The total absence of any proof whatsoever that is there is a God. I agree with previous posters that if there was a God, you would expect to see a lot more evidence of the fact. Granted, you can't prove there isn't a God either, but then it's generally far easier to prove conclusively that something does exist (produce it!) than that it doesn't. I can't prove those unicorns don't exist either.

I've stayed away from the 'scientific' as that approach is utterly pointless. There is no 'scientific' proof, and very little 'evidence', either way. There is a not uncommon assumption on these boards that all atheists somehow became that way as a result of becoming obsessive evolution 'worshippers'.. that simply is not true. As this thread shows, most reach an atheistic position on philosophic, not scientific, grounds.

Do the Buddists not believe in any "Creator"?

[Trumble]

Do the Buddists not believe in any "Creator"?

No, they don't. That's not the same as saying all Buddhists are atheists; there is a wide variety of Buddhist beliefs and many Buddhists do believe in gods and spiritual beings of some sort or another. All, though, are subject to the same laws of cause and effect as human beings.

[asadxyz]

No, they don't. That's not the same as saying all Buddhists are atheists; there is a wide variety of Buddhist beliefs and many Buddhists do believe in gods and spiritual beings of some sort or another. All, though, are subject to the same laws of cause and effect as human beings.

When we say Buddist we mean that person who acts upon "Bhudda's real teaching".
You seem to be an atheist.Because even in this question you showed mindlessness.This is classical sign of atheists.

[wilberhum]

mindlessness

:giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling: :giggling:
Denial of the FSM, now that is mindlessness. :D

[rav]

well there is no need for god.

Really? Why is that?

[Joey]

you THINK theres no need for god but infact there is.

If there was no god then where did the stars, the earth, wind and fire come from, its not a coincidence.



Living in an atheist country MANY people have asked me why i believe in god.
My answer is always the same - cause i can

[wilberhum]

If there was no god then where did the stars, the earth, wind and fire come from, its not a coincidence.

Where did god come from? :hmm:

Why couldn't the srars, the eargh, wind and fire come from the same place. :hiding:

I didn't know Sweden was an athiest country. Interesting. :rollseyes

UPDATE:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Sweden#_note-0

According to the 2005 Eurostat "Eurobarometer" poll,[6] 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god", whereas 53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 23% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force".

23% are not believers and you call it an atheist state? :hmm: :giggling:

[Trumble]

When we say Buddist we mean that person who acts upon "Bhudda's real teaching".

I'm afraid that remark rather reveals that you (and indeed "we", whoever "we" may be) know slightly less about the development of Buddhist thought than could be written on the back of a matchbox.

[barney]

It's not possible for God not to exist.

All things start somewhere, all things in all dimensions known and unknown have a point of origion. That point of origon can be called God.

What powers does that "god" or energy have? Unknown.
How can that energy/ entity affect us? Unknown.
Does it, Did it communicate with us? Unknown.
Is it sentinent? Unknown.
Does it interact with us? Unknown.
Is it aware of our existance? Unknown.
Does it have a gender? Unknown. (and unlikely)

God I accept as the creator of the universe. Did it know it was creating a universe? Unknown.

[hamo26]

OK I am still not convinced by the answes presented by the atheist. The following reasons explain why I am still not convinced:

1) "If god exists, then why doesn' t the spghetti monster or the pink unicron ....". Well this one seemed elementary to me for of course they exist because you have created the concept and established the Idealistic foundation as i might say. In addition this observation of god is quite confusing to me for god does not have a defined shape or form. Again it seems the atheist is limited to his/her own surroundings and denies something beyond the common human perception.

2) I took an advanced calculus course in highschool and one of the topics we studied were series. We learned that a series either diverges or converges to a finite sum. Divergence (the sum of the series is "realistically"unbounded) is when the series approaches a value of infinity. According to most scientists, infinity in the physical world is seen as the "fundemental source of all energy". I've hence concluded that your infinite series of "who created god, and who created that god, and who created the next god"" must converge to a final source, the all potent god. I'm sorry if the math is a bit amatuer but then again I'm 17 and dont have a university background yet. This is simply my logical and personal reasoning.

3) Furthermore many atheists claim that their movement is based on science, yet when I did a bit of research myself I found that the creators themselves did not deny the existence of god and in fact praised it. ""It is the perfection of God's works that they are all done with the greatest simplicity. He is the God of order and not of confusion" (Isaac Newton), this is only one of the many quotes i found.

4) many atheists have told me that the Quran was written or forged by someone. i have contemplated over the possibility yet have come far from success. The first question that came to mind was "why would a person do that and with what purpose?". From experience I know that man is driven by ambition and power. A murder kills for vengance, a terrorist bombs for political attention, humans eat to live, etc. What would someone gain from causing religious anarchy or confusion??? Even if that were the case why would a human spend such invaluable space and thought glorifying our surroundings and what a supposed entity has created for us in nature. Why would such an evil man provide us with immense glory and directions on how to beter our life? There is naturally no reason for man to do that out of conspiracy for there is no gain. I hence concluded that the Quran which was written over 1400 years ago must be a work of god.

Final Result = NOT CONVINCED YET, please continue though Im still young you just might change me.:happy:

[asadxyz]

OK I am still not convinced by the answes presented by the atheist. The following reasons explain why I am still not convinced:


Final Result = NOT CONVINCED YET, please continue though Im still young you just might change me.:happy:

:sl:
This is all they could say.Relax dear.
They have absolutely no convincing evidence or proof for non existance of God.You can very well imagine about the health of the mind which thinks that there is "design without a designer" and that Monkeys are their forefathers.What can you expect out of it?.
:w:

[Joe98]

I hence concluded that the Quran which was written over 1400 years ago must be a work of god.

The Koran is apparrantly an important message.

A very important message.

A very very important message.

But god didn't have the time to deliver it himself. He sent an angel.

However, god can be everywhere at the same time.

He can even go back and forth through time and be in various times all at the same time.

And therfore he doesn't require angels to deliver his message.

And yet it is said that he did.

God doesn't require angels to do his work. Therefore angels must be ann invention of man. In which case there was no message and god.

God is an invention of man.

-

[guyabano]

@hamo_26:

Anyway, you will never be convinced since you have already choosen your camp. People don't question your faith in God, so don't also question people who have other beliefs.
Some guys here tried already to convert people in the forum, so I think you will be one other in the row too.

Here are only a few examples (I can give you much more), why I doubt, a God does exist

1. Try praying
What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:

Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.

We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.

Will anything happen? No. Of course not.

This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in many different places that he and God will answer your prayers. And Christians believe Jesus , 54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true. In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%.

f the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

If "every one who asks receives", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.

2. Statistically analyze prayer

The fact is, God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that "God answers prayers" is an illusion created by human imagination.

How do we know that "answered prayers" are illusions? We simply perform scientific experiments. We ask a group of believers to pray for something and then we watch what happens. What we find, whenever we test the efficacy of prayer scientifically, is that prayer has zero effect:

* It does not matter who prays.
* It does not matter if we pray to God, Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Ra or any other human god.
* It does not matter what we pray about.

If we perform scientific, double-blind tests on prayer, and if the prayers involve something concrete and measurable (for example, healing people with cancer), we know that there is zero effect from prayer. Every single "answered prayer" is nothing more than a coincidence. Both scientific experiments and your everyday observations of the world show this to be the case every single time.

3. Look at historical Goods

The belief in "god" seems to be ubiquitous through the ages.

We know, for example, that the ancient Egyptians believed in their gods so fervently that they built massive structures like the Great Pyramid -- still today one of the largest and most enduring human constructions ever created. Despite that fervor, however, we know with complete certainty today that the Egyptian gods were imaginary. We don't build pyramids anymore and we do not mummify our leaders.

More recently we know that tens of millions of Romans worshiped Jupiter and his friends, and to them they built magnificent temples. The ruins of these temples are popular tourist attractions even today. Yet we know with complete certainty that these gods were imaginary because no one worships Zeus any more.

Much more recently, we know that the Aztec civilization believed in their gods so intensely that they constructed huge temples and pyramids. In addition, Aztecs were so zealous that they were sacrificing hundreds of human beings to their gods as recently as the 16th century. Despite the intensity, however, we know today that these gods were completely imaginary. The Aztecs were insane to be murdering people for their gods. Killing a person has no effect on rainfall or anything else. We all know that. If the Aztec gods were real, we would still be offering sacrifices to them.

Today's "God" is just as imaginary as were these historical gods. The fact that millions of people worship a god is meaningless.


4. Think about science

Notice what happens when anyone is "miraculously cured". A person is sick, the person prays (or a prayer circle prays for the person) and the person is cured. A religious person looks at it and says, "God performed a miracle because of prayer!" That is the end of it.

A scientist looks at it in a very different way. A scientist looks at it and says, "Prayer had nothing to do with it - there is a natural cause for what we see here. If we understand the natural cause, then we can heal many more people suffering from the same condition."

In other words, it is only by assuming that God is imaginary that science can proceed.

5. See the magic

When you look at different religions, they usually contain "magic." For example:

* The Mormon religion contains the magical golden plates, the magical angel, the magical seer stones, the magical ascension of the plates into heaven, etc.

* The Muslim faith contains the magical angel, the magical flying horse, the magical voices, the magical prophet, etc.

* The Christian faith contains the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on.

The presence of "magic" is a clear marker for "imaginary." For example, how do we know that Santa is imaginary? Because (among other things) he has eight magical flying reindeer. How do we know that Jack and the Beanstalk is a fairy tale? Because (among other things) the story contains magical seeds. In the same way, how do we know that God is make believe? Because God is surrounded by magic.

6. Examine Jesus' miracles

If someone were to come to you today and say, "I am God!", what would you do? Yes, you would immediately ask for proof. Of course you would. And you would not want goofy proof.You would want real, solid, tangible proof.

No normal person, and I mean no one, would accept anything less than rock solid proof from a person who claims to be God.

Why should it be any different with Jesus? Jesus was a man who claims to be God. If he is God, then he ought to be able to prove it in a real, inimitable way. If he cannot prove it then, quite clearly, he is not God.

A Christian would say, "But Jesus HAS proven it! Just look at all of the miracles he did in the Bible! He healed the sick! He changed water into wine! That PROVES that Jesus is the Lord!" Does that make sense to you? Imagine that someone, today, were to come up to you and say, "I am God, and I will prove that I am God by healing the sick and turning water into wine!" What would you say? Be honest. You would not believe this person because:

1. Everyone has seen all sorts of "faith healers" who can "heal" the sick. And we all know that this sort of "healing" is quackery. If it were true, then we would not need doctors, hospitals or prescription medicines.

2. Turning water into wine... Doesn't that sound like something that a B-grade David-Copperfield-wannabe magician would do in a nightclub act? There are a dozen ways that you could stage things to make it look like water is turning into wine. There is no reason why a normal person would accept a magic trick as proof that someone is God.

3. Neither of these miracles can be scientifically tested today. Not one of Jesus' miracles left any tangible evidence for scientists to study.

It is as simple as that. If someone claimed to be God today, you would never believe it if the evidence consisted of faith healing and magic tricks. Never. Yet billions of people claim that Jesus' faith healing and magic tricks prove that he is God.

7. Notice, how many Gods you reject

There are literally thousands of religions being practiced today. Here are 20 of the most popular, along with an estimate of the number of followers:

1. Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. Islam: 1.3 billion
3. Hinduism: 900 million
4. Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
5. Buddhism: 376 million
6. African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
7. Sikhism: 23 million
8. Juche: 19 million
9. Spiritism: 15 million
10. Judaism: 14 million
11. Baha'i: 7 million
12. Jainism: 4.2 million
13. Shinto: 4 million
14. Cao Dai: 4 million
15. Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
16. Tenrikyo: 2 million
17. Neo-Paganism: 1 million
18. Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
19. Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
20. Scientology: 500 thousand

[Source: Encyclopedia Britannica]

If you believe in God, you have chosen to reject Allah, Vishnu, Budda, Waheguru and all of the thousands of other gods that other people worship today. It is quite likely that you rejected these other gods without ever looking into their religions or reading their books. You simply absorbed the dominant faith in your home or in the society you grew up in.

In the same way, the followers of all these other religions have chosen to reject God. You think their gods are imaginary, and they think your God is imaginary.

In other words, each religious person on earth today arbitrarily rejects thousands of gods as imaginary, many of which he/she has never even heard of, and arbitrarily chooses to "believe" in one of them.

The following quote from Stephen F. Roberts sums up the situation very nicely:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

8. Understand that religion is superstition

Let's say that you were to create a far-flung news network, and you somehow had the capacity to observe all of the inexplicable tragedy that occurs on Earth each day:

* all of the murders,
* all of the car wrecks
* all of the rapes
* all of the mutilations
* all of the torture
* all the miscarriages and stillbirths
* all of the disease
* all of the starvation
* all of the destruction
* all of the terrorism

Let's say you had a news feed that delivered this all to you in real time.

Just ten minutes with this news feed would be unbearable. Thousands of tragic, heartwrenching events would impinge themselves upon you every minute. It would make you vomit over and over and over again until you passed out in exhaustion and despair.

In other words, the amount of gut-wrenching, anguished tragedy in our world is unspeakable.

Meanwhile, there is a housewife in Pasadena who firmly believes that God answered her prayer this morning to remove the mustard stain from her favorite blouse. She prayed to God to help with the stain, and after she washed it the stain was gone. Praise Jesus! There are tens of millions of people in the United States who firmly believe that God is personally helping them each day with their trivial prayers like this. They believe that they have a personal relationship with God, that God hears their prayers each day, and that God has time to reach down and remove the mustard molecules one by one. They believe it with all of their hearts.

It makes you wonder: If God has the time and the will to answer these trivial prayers, then why does he have no time for the millions of other massively serious problems that arise on earth every day?

Simply look at the world we live in. All around us we have murderers, rapists, robbers, child molesters, terrorists, etc... How do they do their deeds? If God is all-knowing and God answers prayers, then we have to believe that:

* God watches them as they murder, rape, molest and terrorize other people millions of times a day, but he does nothing to stop them.
* God watches the victims as they are being murdered, raped, molested and terrorized, but he does nothing to help them.
* God completely ignores the prayers of the planet to eliminate murder, rape, child molestation and terrorism and allows these atrocities to continue unabated.

9. Think about DNA

Many religious belivers use the existence of DNA as a proof for God's existence. The logic goes something like this:

DNA is information. The amount of information encapsulated in a single strand of human DNA would fill 400 volumes the size of an Encyclopedia Britanica, and this information contains an exact blueprint for creating a human being. This information did not write itself. The creation of information requires intelligence. The creation of an encyclopedia requires an author - a creator. God is the creator of the information in DNA.

10. Listen, when God talks

If you know a group of devout Christians, you will frequently hear them say to each other (and even to people outside the group) things like this:

My husband and I are not sure what to do in this situation. We are going to pray to God and see what he tells us to do.

According to televangelists and ministers, God also frequently talks to them as well.

In other words, Christians believe that God transmits divine messages to his followers in response to prayer. Christians actually believe that the almighty, all-knowing creator of the universe is talking to them personally and guiding their decisions.

Now think about this. Let's say that the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe was going to transmit personal messages to Christians. Wouldn't you expect the people receiving these messages to blow the rest of us away in every intellectual endeavor? Wouldn't you expect someone who is directed by God to be a genius? Wouldn't every Christian student get a perfect score on every test simply by praying to God for the answers?

Imagine, for example, that a Christian is having trouble deciding what color couch to buy. So she prays to God for guidance. Wouldn't you expect the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe to come back with a message that just completely blows all of us away? For example, wouldn't you expect a Christian to say:

You know, I prayed to God to help me decide which color couch to buy, and the next thing I hear is God's voice in my head! And he starts telling me how to build a nuclear fusion reactor that will completely solve the world's energy problems! It's some kind of crazy laser-pumped Tokamak thing. I have no idea what he was talking about, but I was the vessel for his spirit, and I have transcribed the messages and diagrams that God sent to my brain in these 14 notebooks. You can see that we now have complete construction details for a perfect, pollution free, inexpensive fusion reactor -- Praise the Lord!"

Yes, that is what you expect from the all-powerful, all-knowing creator of the universe, if God were real. You would expect the messages that God sends to blow us out of the water with their brilliance.

The fact that God's messages to Christians are completely mundane tells us that God is imaginary. What the Christian typically gets is this message: "Buy the red couch." That message, of course, is the Christian's own brain making a decision, because God is completely imaginary.


as I said, I can bring up a huge list of more proofs, which YOU certainly hardly refute, except reciting some verses again, what most do, when they're out of arguments.

[MuhammadRizan]

salam.

1. Try praying
What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:

Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.

We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.

Will anything happen? No. Of course not.

what if He choose to ignore u? can u complain?

[asadxyz]

@hamo_26:

Anyway, you will never be convinced since you have already choosen your camp. People don't question your faith in God, so don't also question people who have other beliefs.
Some guys here tried already to convert people in the forum, so I think you will be one other in the row too.

Here are only a few examples (I can give you much more), why I doubt, a God does exist

1. Try praying
What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:

Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.

We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.

Will anything happen? No. Of course not.

.

Peace;
I appreciate your post because you are first one in the atheist group who has some "mind " to think.
But in spite of this long mental gymnastic,the question is still unaswered, what "scientific law or evidence can tell that something can come into existance out of nothing" without some cause or creator??

[Muslim Knight]

If there were a god he would come for an occasional visit.

Who's really trying to be the god here if He has to follow your whims?

He would give us a state of the union address and keep us up to date on the latest developments in heaven and hell.

Again, He can only be God if he follows your whim?

Apparently he can be everywhere at once. And yet, there are some who claim, that from time to time, he has sent angels to deliver messages. Maybe he was too busy to deliver it himself. If he can be everywhere at once why does he need angels?

If He does all the work by Himself, why would there be need to create Paradise to reward the pious and Hell to punish the sinful? Also, why even bother create us and the Angels?

Also, why does he need satan? I would have thought an all powerful god, could light an eternal fire without having to employ somebody to tend the fire?

Which religion says that God needs Satan? Weird. Even dead Greek religions don't say this.

God, angels and satan are all inventions of man

You think...

[Trumble]

"If god exists, then why doesn' t the spghetti monster or the pink unicron ....".

That is not the point being made. It is simply that it is no more possible to disprove those things exist than to disprove God exists.

Well this one seemed elementary to me for of course they exist because you have created the concept and established the Idealistic foundation as i might say.

Exactly! Swap "God" for "they"!

In addition this observation of god is quite confusing to me for god does not have a defined shape or form. Again it seems the atheist is limited to his/her own surroundings and denies something beyond the common human perception.

Firstly that is the muslim conception of God, not necessarily a universal one. Secondly, it simply doesn't follow. There is no such limitation, an atheist could swap "being without defined shape or form" for "pink unicorn" quite easily.

Buddhism, too, involves something beyond "the common human perception", but in both cases the atheist is quite correct in requiring the theist/Buddhist to produce evidence such a thing exists, rather than have it required of them to prove it doesn't. Both theist and Buddhist case are based on faith and direct experience, not in providing any such evidence.

This is simply my logical and personal reasoning.

The best kind! It's very refreshing to debate something other than ignorance, arrogance (mentioning no names) and Mr Cut n'Paste!

I've hence concluded that your infinite series of "who created god, and who created that god, and who created the next god"" must converge to a final source, the all potent god.

Fair enough, but you are merely assuming that that final source is "the all potent god", and an atheist would just respond that there is no justification whatsoever to do so. I'd point out, also, the Judeo/Christian/Islamic tradition does not accept the existence of such a series, and indeed would find it just as heretical as atheism!

Furthermore many atheists claim that their movement is based on science, yet when I did a bit of research myself I found that the creators themselves did not deny the existence of god and in fact praised it. ""It is the perfection of God's works that they are all done with the greatest simplicity. He is the God of order and not of confusion" (Isaac Newton), this is only one of the many quotes i found.

This is a straw-man, as I suggested earlier. It is generally theists who claim that, not atheists themselves! There are a great many scientists/thinkers who are also theists today, and of course far more proportionately in Newton's time. There is no contradiction between science and religion, and science neither 'proves' nor 'disproves' God. The atheistic position is not that science disproves God, it is that science can provide explanations to what theists attribute to God. The only theist response is "God of the gaps"; i.e because science doesn't know the answer it must be God. The atheist response to that is simply that science hasn't found that answer yet.

The first question that came to mind was "why would a person do that and with what purpose?". From experience I know that man is driven by ambition and power. A murder kills for vengance, a terrorist bombs for political attention, humans eat to live, etc. What would someone gain from causing religious anarchy or confusion??? Even if that were the case why would a human spend such invaluable space and thought glorifying our surroundings and what a supposed entity has created for us in nature. Why would such an evil man provide us with immense glory and directions on how to beter our life? There is naturally no reason for man to do that out of conspiracy for there is no gain. I hence concluded that the Quran which was written over 1400 years ago must be a work of god.

Man is also driven by an inclination to help others and improve life for all - we might as well all give up now if that wasn't the case. There are possible social, psychological and indeed theological explanations for that. Experience has also taught us that it is true; a great many books have been written by great minds with precisely that objective - but it has never been claimed the books or ideas were of divine origin.

It simply doesn't follow that, assuming for a second that the Qur'an was of human authorship, it must have been written by an "evil man" or men. I certainly do not believe the author(s) of the Qur'an was/were 'evil' - quite the contrary. As to motive, it is fairly obvious that the most effective way to get a generally reluctant, but superstitious and credulous, population to follow a particular moral code or way of life (which you believe will improve their lives enormously) is to to package it up as being of divine origin. Rousseau still believed that a millennium later, and indeed advocated it as way of getting his own ideas accepted (The Social Contract, Book 4, chapter 8). It further makes sense that such packaging should be modelled on what was the most coherent and deep-rooted theist system of the time rather than local beliefs likely to be swept away.

All of that isn't really the point, though. For the atheist, your conclusion is again no more than "God of the gaps". Is the fact we can't (say you) figure out some human motives - which is hard enough at the best of times! - sufficient to justify conjuring up an all powerful being, and all that metaphysically entails, for which no other evidence exists? To an atheist, the reasoning is absurd while to a believer, of course, it obviously is not. :D

[guyabano]

Peace;
I appreciate your post because you are first one in the atheist group who has some "mind " to think.
But in spite of this long mental gymnastic,the question is still unaswered, what "scientific law or evidence can tell that something can come into existance out of nothing" without some cause or creator??

First of all, I never mentionned somewhere I'm an atheist. I would put myself more for somebody to look for a proof of a God.
But I didn' t find yet. Honestly, I gave you a few examples, why I doubt, there might be a God.

But fact is, neither a muslim, nor a christian could ever deliver me facts, that a God exist. They always just have the option to refer to the Quaran or the bible, which I call fairytale books

It took 23 years to finish the Quaran, and nobody on this forum could ever give me an answer why.

I'm tired of these threads where non-muslims (I prefer to call it non-believers in the eyes of muslims) must always show up a proof for something. Why then can't you simply accept the facts, there are different believers than YOU. It could be so peaceful living together if everybody is tolerant enough to accept others faith.

As I stated already before, in the eyes of other cultures, muslims are also 'unbelievers' as you don't believe in their gods. Now I'm pretty sure, this is something you don't like to hear.

Edit: There will never be a scientific explanaition for the existance of a God.

Fact at this point is, I proove you more evidences that there is NO God, so I still wait for yours that there is/might be a God.

I'm still waiting !

[ranma1/2]

If they're invisible how come they're pink? They're only pink if they're visible.

ah but they are pink and invisible. It is their power.
It is just that your not able to see them because in your heart you wish not to.

[guyabano]

salam.



what if He choose to ignore u? can u complain?

and what kind of God would that be? You pray to him and he igonre you? I would say 'shameful'

[ranma1/2]

Really? Why is that?

well there isnt. We pretty much have an explanation of somesort for most things. God no longer make rain or the sun etc... "once we thought they did"
Spirits and demons dont posses people or make people sick etc..

All gods do is add on more step "a needless one"

[- Qatada -]

It took 23 years to finish the Quaran, and nobody on this forum could ever give me an answer why.

You really think? :?

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...rrupted-3.html

[ranma1/2]

1) "If god exists, then why doesn' t the spaghetti monster or the pink unicron ....". Well this one seemed elementary to me for of course they exist because you have created the concept and established the Idealistic foundation as i might say. In addition this observation of god is quite confusing to me for god does not have a defined shape or form. Again it seems the atheist is limited to his/her own surroundings and denies something beyond the common human perception.

Isnt this just your version of a god.?

2) I took an advanced calculus course in highschool and one of the topics we studied were series. We learned that a series either diverges or converges to a finite sum. Divergence (the sum of the series is "realistically"unbounded) is when the series approaches a value of infinity. According to most scientists, infinity in the physical world is seen as the "fundemental source of all energy". I've hence concluded that your infinite series of "who created god, and who created that god, and who created the next god"" must converge to a final source, the all potent god. I'm sorry if the math is a bit amatuer but then again I'm 17 and dont have a university background yet. This is simply
my logical and personal reasoning.

So why cant the big bang be the "source". Why throw in needless gods?
Not to mention calculus is used for calculus.


3) Furthermore many atheists claim that their movement is based on science, yet when I did a bit of research myself I found that the creators themselves did not deny the existence of god and in fact praised it. ""It is the perfection of God's works that they are all done with the greatest simplicity. He is the God of order and not of confusion" (Isaac Newton), this is only one of the many quotes i found.

Research? Creators? I find that mosts famouse scientists are often misqouted" einstien especially". Often remarks made about a "god" are at best a impersonal god or just a metaphor for how cool everything is. regardless all you are going for is a poor argument from an authoritive figure that has no impact on their feild.



4) many atheists have told me that the Quran was written or forged by someone.
first question that came to mind was "why would a person do that and with what purpose?".
From experience I know that man is driven by ambition and power. A murder kills for vengance, a terrorist bombs for political attention, humans eat to live, etc. What would someone gain from causing religious anarchy or confusion???
Well the above pretty much states it. Power, controll etc... Not to mention insanity "they may actually believe it", they may have been misqouted. Things can change over time etc....

Even if that were the case why would a human spend such invaluable space and thought glorifying our surroundings and what a supposed entity has created for us in nature.
Well its not a waste to them. Plus its been our nature to wonder why. Look at the millions of religions out there. Obviously they had reasons for why they were created.

Why would such an evil man provide us with immense glory and directions on how to better our life?
Evil? who said evil. as for direction and better life. I would say many if not most religions try to do this. are they all true religions?

There is naturally no reason for man to do that out of conspiracy for there is no gain. I hence concluded that the Quran which was written over 1400 years ago must be a work of god.
Yes there is gain. So what is your opinon about the bible, the torad, Zeus, buddhism, bahai, scientiology, ect... following your logic they too must also be true. Im getting the idea you were raised either muslim or christian.


Good luck

[guyabano]

You really think? :?

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...rrupted-3.html

Can you proof I'm wrong?

ahhh, this is all so silly.

Religions just bring the worsiest out of humans. We do wars in the name of God, cruisades, Terrorists use God for their actions against Kuffars, and so on. I'm so tired of this !

edit:

The Quran was revealed in 23 years, yet there are not any contradictory points in it

The revelation of the Quran lasted 23 years. It is inconceivable that any book written by a mortal being in 23 years, one which is a book of Divine truths, metaphysics, religious beliefs and worship, prayer, law and morality, a book fully describing the other life, a book of psychology, sociology, epistemology, and history, and a book containing scientific facts and the principles of a happy life, does not have any contradictory points. Whereas, the Quran openly declares that it has no contradictions at all and therefore is a Divine Book:

Will they not then ponder on the Quran? If it had been from other than God they would have found therein much contradiction and incongruity. (al-Nisa’, 4.82)

Source

2nd Edit: I think I didn't see this post, I'm afraid. Still, a question remain: if it was God's book, he could have written it in a glimpse of a second, since he's supernatural, so why 23 years?

[Uthman]

Here are my thoughts. This will most likely be one my last post in this thread:

I believe in God because I was brought up to do so. I have found evidences and experiences which have confirmed my belief, but would probably be unconvincing to an atheist (I would probably be unconvinced in their position though).

If absolute proof of God's existence existed, then everyone in the world would probably be a theist. That is unfortunately not the case.

If someone were to ask me to prove that God exists, my answer would be that I cannot. I could come up with many reasons why I believe in his existence, but I cannot prove it. But the conclusion then, is not that God doesn't exist. The conclusion is merely that it cannot be proven.

Likewise, if I were to ask an atheist to disprove that God exists, they would not be able to. Sure, they could come up with a whole load of reasons why they do not believe in God, but just as I cannot prove God's existence, atheists cannot disprove his existence.

In short, it's pointless trying. Get a life all of you.


Only Joking, please do continue while I watch this debate from the sidelines and make sarcastic comments in my head.

[guyabano]

Here are my thoughts. This will most likely be one my last post in this thread:

I believe in God because I was brought up to do so. I have found evidences and experiences which have confirmed my belief, but would probably be unconvincing to an atheist (I would probably be unconvinced in their position though).

If absolute proof of God's existence existed, then everyone in the world would probably be a theist. That is unfortunately not the case.

If someone were to ask me to prove that God exists, my answer would be that I cannot. I could come up with many reasons why I believe in his existence, but I cannot prove it. But the conclusion then, is not that God doesn't exist. The conclusion is merely that it cannot be proven.

Likewise, if I were to ask an atheist to disprove that God exists, they would not be able to. Sure, they could come up with a whole load of reasons why they do not believe in God, but just as I cannot prove God's existence, atheists cannot disprove his existence.

In short, it's pointless trying. Get a life all of you.


Only Joking, please do continue while I watch this debate from the sidelines and make sarcastic comments in my head.

Good reply ! At least a few ones here, who seem not to be so narrowminded.

Thank you !

Peace to you !

[ranma1/2]

..
I believe in God because I was brought up to do so.
I have found evidences and experiences which have confirmed my belief..

If absolute proof of God's existence existed, then everyone in the world would probably be a theist. That is unfortunately not the case.

If someone were to ask me to prove that God exists, my answer would be that I cannot. I could come up with many reasons why I believe in his existence, but I cannot prove it. But the conclusion then, is not that God doesn't exist. The conclusion is merely that it cannot be proven.

Likewise, if I were to ask an atheist to disprove that God exists, they would not be able to. .., but just as I cannot prove God's existence, atheists cannot disprove his existence.

....

So do you think you would not be a muslim if you were raised differently?
In general its the responciblity of the one giving the positive claim to prove something. You dont have to prove there is not a IPU ro GFSM or a celestial teapot or I dont have psychic powers. Its the responcibility of the positive claimer.

Also dont you think a god "especially a good one" would leave no dount to its existence? Well got to go.

[- Qatada -]

Guyabano, i never said that God couldn't send the Qur'an in less than a second.

Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!

[Qur'an 36: 82]

I've explained to you before that we as humans need a context for different situations. So the Qur'an was revealed during different situations;

The Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23years so we could see the context of the verses. If you've actually read the Qur'an you'll see that certain verses were revealed during the time the Muslims were weak and oppressed, then other verses were revealed when the Muslims had their own state and faced the battlefield, other verses were revealed when the Muslims were secure, others were revealed when the Muslims were an established authority etc.


When we read the Qur'an, we see how it is in relation to the Prophet and his companions (which is also preserved for us authentically.) Therefore, any situation the Muslims face, they see the Prophetic example, they see the verses in regard to that situation so they can respond in a similar manner. This is then the perfect example for us as believers, and if we see any situation during the lifetime of the Prophet and his companions, we can follow their example and be successful.

With the Qur'an being revealed gradually has a greater wisdom behind it than just being revealed within one go.

I stated that in the post i linked you to.



Let me ask you this question. Do you think that someone can write a diary of their whole future and present life in one day while they're only 4 years old?

[guyabano]

Let me ask you this question. Do you think that someone can write a diary of their whole future and present life in one day while they're only 4 years old?

My apologozie. I seem to have neglected this thread by not reading.

We don't speak about someone. We're suppose to speak about God. And then, we assume, he would know the past, present and future, no? He's almighty, right? So why taking so long?

A human of course cannot know his/her future, that's true !

[- Qatada -]

My apologozie. I seem to have neglected this thread by not reading.

It's okay.

We don't speak about someone. We're suppose to speak about God. And then, we assume, he would know the past, present and future, no? He's almighty, right? So why taking so long?

A human of course cannot know his/her future, that's true !

I totally agree, and i've explained earlier that revelation is for mankind. Therefore, even if Allaah is outside the boundaries of time - that doesn't mean that we are. Therefore we require a context for the verses, we need an example, a role model to follow so we know that we are following the correct way.

This is why the Qur'an has been sent over a period of 23yrs, if it was sent all at once - then the verses about self defence in war wouldn't be applicable when there is no battle taking place, or the verses about the Islamic state wouldn't be applicable if there wasn't even an Islamic state established. The verses were sent in different situations during different events and circumstances, so later Muslims would also know how to respond in a similar manner, to how the Prophet and his companions did during certain circumstances.





Regards.

[- Qatada -]

Religions just bring the worsiest out of humans. We do wars in the name of God, cruisades, Terrorists use God for their actions against Kuffars, and so on. I'm so tired of this !

Using the example which i gave above, it actually explains that what acts are being done aren't part of Islaam i.e. to kill innocents, non combatants etc. Since the Prophet forbade this;

The final Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:


[In the Context of War:]

“Do not kill any old person, any child, or any woman.” [Abu Dawud]

“Do not kill the monks in monasteries,” or “Do not kill the people who are sitting in places of worship.” [Musnad Ahmad]

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. Do not kill a decrepit old man, or a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well. (Sunan Abu Dawud , Book 14, Number 2608)


It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children. [Sahih Muslim, Book 019, Number 4320]



In the Qur'an, Allaah Almighty says (translation of the meaning):

Whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind...

[Qur'an 5: 32]

From the above we see that religion is being used here to promote good, to forbid the killing of innocents, to stop the shedding of blood and murder, and to encourage others to preserve life. While society which is controlled by other ideologies may not care about these sacred principles.


I agree that some people can try to use religion to justify evil, however - let's say over 1500 years ago, it was the norms to go to any land and just kill every single person, take others as slaves, and devour the innocent peoples property unjustly. The final Messenger of Allaah came and abolished this. It's even sometimes done today when a country can simply throw an atom bomb and eradicate the whole nation, simply because the former nation is more powerful economically.


The ideology which is well known today is 'the survival of the fittest' - it's all about 'being an animal' and therefore harming others, while the shedding of blood is cheap. The World Wars which took place in the 20th century are a great example of this [since it wasn't a religious aim, rather an aim opposing religion], and how millions of people got killed, and all it was, was a challenge over power and authority among the world leaders.


EDIT: I did some research and found something shocking;

World War 1:

The war lasted from 1914-18, claimed 10 million lives and forever changed the political map of Europe.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/special_r...r_i/197437.stm


The total of deaths in World War 2 (1930-1945) are estimated to be around:

56,125,262

http://www.hitler.org/ww2-deaths.html


That's 56 million 125 thousand 262.



That's around 66 MILLION people (if we round it to a lower number) killed in 19years! And this was by a group of people who were anti-religious, following Darwinism, 'the survival of the fittest' ideology.


That's a HUGE number.

So if religion is to be blamed, i agree that some will try to justify evil using it. However, since i don't agree with all religions but believe in Islaam, i believe that there is much more good which comes through it than evil. And much less harm also. Which is one of the aims of Islaam.




And Allaah knows best.




Regards.

[Uthman]

Greetings,

I don't think we have had the chance to speak before ranma1/2. Well anyway, I hope everything is ok with you, even though you ruined my cool exit.

So do you think you would not be a muslim if you were raised differently?

I couldn't possibly know. I doubt that I would be a Muslim if I was raised as a follower of another religion, but it's not something I want to speculate about.

In general its the responciblity of the one giving the positive claim to prove something. You dont have to prove there is not a IPU ro GFSM or a celestial teapot or I dont have psychic powers. Its the responcibility of the positive claimer.

I sort of agree with you. Except, I thought that it was the responsibility of the original claimant on whom the burden of proof lies? So, if an argument started with somebody claiming that the celestial teapot does not exist, would they not have to provide evidence? (Genuine question again)

Even so, my real point was that when I cannot prove the existence of God, the conclusion is not automatically that he does not exist. It is only that I have not been able to prove it. And it would be the same vice versa for an atheist attempting to disprove God's existence.

Also dont you think a god "especially a good one" would leave no dount to its existence? Well got to go.

Here is where we go into life being a test and whatnot. Also, God can see everything and being Al-Hakeem or the 'All-wise' would know exactly what to do.

Again, my arguments will probably be as unconvincing to you as yours are to me. I can probably predict your reply and I can also predict what my reply to your reply would be. :D I don't think I'm going to convince you and I doubt that you will convince me. Sorry to sound so pessimistic. You're welcome to continue with me though and I won't be able to resist replying most likely. :nervous:

Have fun wherever you're going.

Regards

[Woodrow]

I always cringe when I see a statement challenging somebody to prove that something does not exist. On the surface that sounds like a very simple. provable statement. Yet, it is impossible to answer. We as humans do not have the means to prove that something does not exist.

Standards can be established to validate the existence of something. But, that does not hold true to prove that something does not exist. There can always be an explanation as to why something appears to exist. But, if it is not mutually accepted that is proof of existence, there is no proof shown. There are no known criteria to show that something does not exist.

I firmly believe in the existence and truth of Allah(swt). But, I can not expect somebody to prove he does not exist. The challange is for me to offer proof that He does exist. I am satisfied that I have seen sufficient evidence to convince me. But, I do know I have to accept the fact that others will view that simply as evidence and not as proof.

No person is capable of offering me proof that Allah(swt) does not exist. There is no point in my even asking such a question. My goal is better directed to establish a common means of communication and establish mutually acceptable standards of validation of proof. This comes down to being an individual task for me and strictly one to one contact, generalities are very limited.

[barney]

The first question that came to mind was "why would a person do that and with what purpose?". From experience I know that man is driven by ambition and power. :

And Religion is the most powerful route to wealth and power. Bar none.

Imagine, one day your sitting on a hillside minding some sheep....6 months later you have tens of thousands of adoring ...actually more than adoring, more like fanatical, followers. They flatter you, call you the best of men, throw gifts at you, you can order deaths with a wave of a hand, your feet get oiled. Theres nothing not to like about it...except the utter Immorality.

[Woodrow]

And Religion is the most powerful route to wealth and power. Bar none.

Imagine, one day your sitting on a hillside minding some sheep....6 months later you have tens of thousands of adoring ...actually more than adoring, more like fanatical, followers. They flatter you, call you the best of men, throw gifts at you, you can order deaths with a wave of a hand, your feet get oiled. Theres nothing not to like about it...except the utter Immorality.

Somehow that does not sound very religious to me.
I believe that form of "Religion" is being replaced by rap singers and TV celebrities.

actually what you describe does not sound all that good.

"throw gifts at you," sounds like something an angry immature young wife would do, cause her husband said something she didn't like.


"your feet get oiled." That happens to oil field workers often. They complain about the difficulty in getting it off.

[Gator]

OK I am still not convinced by the answes presented by the atheist. The following reasons explain why I am still not convinced:

Final Result = NOT CONVINCED YET, please continue though Im still young you just might change me.:happy:

I thought the purpose of this thread was to get a better picture of some of the people you share the planet with, rather than bait them to try and "convert" you.

I'm glad your a muslim. Stay a muslim.

Take it easy and adios.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


lol thats funny woodrow :p



One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that many of the Prophets of Allaah were living perfectly normal, and even easy lifestyles before they received the message. They were usually from the most noble tribes of their people, therefore they would have a great deal amount of honor and respect from the people.


Yet when Allaah sent them revelation, there own tribes/clans and people started to oppose them. They started insulting them, so their honor was lost. They never had the wealth from their own tribes [although they would have easy access to it before], there followers would usually be poor people and the down-trodden.


To stop the call; the disbelievers would try to bribe the Prophet and his followers - 'we will give you kingdom, wealth, women, honor, and all that you desire. But just give up your religion and follow the ways of our forefathers instead.' But the Prophets refused, knowing that this wasn't their purpose.


So the Prophet would live a poor life, he never had much honor among his own people, and the believers would be humble while the disbelievers would oppose them and even torture many. Yet they remained constant and firm upon the truth.



This is even a stronger proof that the Prophets never desired this world, they never desired all the worldly things that people were after. They sacrificed their lives, wealth, honor, and everything they had for Allaah.

Yet what did they call to? To worship Allaah Alone. To establish the prayer, to enjoin the family ties, to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. To help the needy, to unite mankind in good, and in return for this - Allaah would grant those who believe and do good Paradise. And He will punish the rebellious.

Is then the man who believes no better than the man who is rebellious and wicked? Not equal are they.

For those who believe and do righteous deeds are Gardens as hospitable homes, for their (good) deeds.


As to those who are rebellious and wicked, their abode will be the Fire: every time they wish to get away therefrom, they will be forced thereinto, and it will be said to them: "Taste ye the Penalty of the Fire, the which ye used to deny.


And indeed We will make them taste of the Penalty of this (life) prior to the supreme Penalty, in order that they may (repent and) return.

And who does more wrong than one to whom are recited the Signs of his Lord, and who then turns away therefrom? Verily from those who transgress We shall exact (due) Retribution.


[Qur'an 32: 18-22]

[Woodrow]

:salamext:


lol thats funny woodrow :p

Shukran for understanding the humor. But, like many of my posts, it also has a serious side. Religion is not based upon material gain. When the values of the material world control any religion, it ceases to be worship and does become an industry. Sadly, such industries do exist, but their rewards are only short term.

Your post, is very much to the point and does show the differences between a true religion and a self fulfilling industry.

[guyabano]

Now, one question still puzzle me:

Let's suppose, there would be God(s)? Now which one would now be the real one?
As I mentionned before, there did exist ancient (huge and prosper) cultures long time before, who also worship Gods, like Azteks, Egypts, Greeks, etc.. now what would happen, if now one of them could proove, their God would be the true one?
I guess, this would end up in a massacre, and this all in the name of (a) God.

And suppose that God should bring peace on earth. What a dilemma !

[Trumble]

The ideology which is well known today is 'the survival of the fittest' - it's all about 'being an animal' and therefore harming others, while the shedding of blood is cheap. The World Wars which took place in the 20th century are a great example of this [since it wasn't a religious aim, rather an aim opposing religion], and how millions of people got killed, and all it was, was a challenge over power and authority among the world leaders.

And this was by a group of people who were anti-religious, following Darwinism, 'the survival of the fittest' ideology.

Darwinism is not an 'ideology' to be followed or not, it is an explanation for why certain things in the world are as they are. "Survival of the fittest" as a political concept has been around as long as mankind and has nothing to do with "Darwinism". It is true that both Germans and Japanese considered others racially inferior, but so had countless other conquerors throughout history... not infrequently for religious reasons.

Both wars came about for much the same reasons as just about every earlier war (including most of the 'religious' ones, particularly the crusades). WW1 was the result of a mixture of assorted gripes that existed between the most powerful European nations at the time, and was actually sparked off by a political assassination by a Serbian nationalist. WW2 was rather more 'traditional', in that countries who thought they needed more land and resources set out to acquire them from others by force.. just as the Assyrians had, the Romans had, the Mongols had, and many others had, before them. The reason the 20th century conflicts were so devastating was simply that we had devised ever more efficient and ingenious ways of slaughtering each other, and the nature of war had changed so that civilians were also targets. Had WW3 been fought, with atomic weapons, the carnage would have been far worse no matter what happened to start it.

One statistic you missed, incidently, was that while 10 million died in WW1, another 18 million died shortly afterwards as the result, not of war, but of a flu epidemic. You see what I mean about 'the problem of evil'? How could a benevolent, omnipotent God allow people to suffer like that for four years and then kill them off with flu?!

[- Qatada -]

Now, one question still puzzle me:

Let's suppose, there would be God(s)? Now which one would now be the real one?
As I mentionned before, there did exist ancient (huge and prosper) cultures long time before, who also worship Gods, like Azteks, Egypts, Greeks, etc.. now what would happen, if now one of them could proove, their God would be the true one?

Do you believe that God dies? If you disagree, then that removes Christianity and Hinduism off the shelf. It also removes the Egyptian Pharoah 'gods' off the shelf too since they too die [obviously because they're humans.]

Do you believe that God has children and a wife, and a whole family? Do you think that He is only limited to having one ability? I.e. he can only cause thunder, while another god is god of the sea and therefore is limited to controlling the sea etc? Do you think that God is limited to certain aspects only, while others share the duties upon with other 'gods'? If you disagree, then you disagree with the Greek gods. Aswell as the Aztecs.


Do you think that God has human attributes? If so - then he isn't God. Since God is only God because He isn't human and limited.



If someone said that God can do anything and therefore be a flying 'kettle in space' [as some have said.] Is that believable. No.


Do you agree that God only does what befits His Majesty? This is Islaam. Is it believable that it is our Creator and Sustainer who alone grants us all we have in life? Creating a system where mankind and others can survive for many milleniums if not millions of years? If He has created and sustained us throughout, isn't it believable that He would send us guidance for what He has given us? And therefore we are required to submit to Him. Yes, It is believable.


Allaah is the Lord of the Worlds.

He is Allah , other than whom there is no deity, the Sovereign, the Pure, the Perfection, the Bestower of Faith, the Overseer, the Exalted in Might, the Compeller, the Superior. Exalted is Allah above whatever they associate with Him.

He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of forms. To Him belong the Best Names . All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.


[Qur'an 59: 23-4]

[- Qatada -]

One statistic you missed, incidently, was that while 10 million died in WW1, another 18 million died shortly afterwards as the result, not of war, but of a flu epidemic.

That's amazing.

You see what I mean about 'the problem of evil'? How could a benevolent, omnipotent God allow people to suffer like that for four years and then kill them off with flu?!

Allaah is the Wise, All Knowing. So i can carry on bringing theories trying to explain why it happened, however only Allaah knows the true reason behind this.

What i will say though is that even if something doesn't seem pleasing to us at one time in history, there may be a great deal of good through it in the future which we may be unaware of. So it may seem evil at one time, yet it is for a greater good in the future. What good you ask? I simply don't know, since it's Allaah who is the Wise, All Knowing.





Regards.

[Woodrow]

Now, one question still puzzle me:

Let's suppose, there would be God(s)? Now which one would now be the real one?
As I mentionned before, there did exist ancient (huge and prosper) cultures long time before, who also worship Gods, like Azteks, Egypts, Greeks, etc.. now what would happen, if now one of them could proove, their God would be the true one?
I guess, this would end up in a massacre, and this all in the name of (a) God.

And suppose that God should bring peace on earth. What a dilemma !

I believe you have just given strong evidence that only ONE God(swt) can exist. The scenario you just described would be the daily occurrence if there were more than one.

There probably are other creatures more powerfull than humans and perhaps to some humans they may be viewed as gods. But they are not God(swt).

I believe the only likely scenarios are there is either one God(swt) or no god.
I personally believe in the existance of ONE God(swt).

[guyabano]

@Quatada and Woodrow ! I accept these arguments, and may you find what you are looking for.

Me, I'm still on the quest. My wife is also digging on me every day to accept God, but what can I say, I'm already old fart (40) :D

[Woodrow]

@Quatada and Woodrow ! I accept these arguments, and may you find what you are looking for.

Me, I'm still on the quest. My wife is also digging on me every day to accept God, but what can I say, I'm already old fart (40) :D

For myself the quest is over, it is now just a desire to remain on the path. I have found what I was looking for.

May your journey in searching be short and bring you much happiness and rewards. It really is a quest each of us has to walk alone. We can only use the words of others as temporary landmarks to help us each decide if we are on the path to our desired goal.

[- Qatada -]

Thanks guyabano :) May Allaah guide you and us all to what pleases Him, ameen.




Peace.

[جوري]

To die is human it is part of the (human condition) it is the contrast by which we measure life and the quality of living-- whether or not you think there is a G-D and to question his beneficence or maleficence, is completely a separate issue.. it doesn't matter if you die in a senseless war, or out of poverty or in some pandemic, it doesn't matter if you are a rich Ba$tard who has never once contributed to charity.. Death is very just as it favors no one and discriminates against no one-- it will come whether you live in a high fortress, or in a Jurte, it will come to the inhabitants of China and those of Saskatchewan. It will come to young or old... It is a reminder, it is a always a moral of how we chose to live. A lesson to learn that we are all travelers with no exceptions, who have taken refuge under the shade of a tree, and then got on our way and off at our perspective stops!

This world isn't about permanence or security .. I realize to an Atheist it seems senseless to die, or seem like an act of iniquity.. but to those who truly reflect, in their heart they know, that this life is but the abode of suffering.. and they learn to take provisions for the road and what is to come. To them it is indeed senseless for life to be just that.. work, pay mortgage, have a family procreate and have a two month vacation and some money aside for retirement and then one day pofft drop dead!.. That is the making of a very sterile existence!

[hamo26]

that is a very Beatiful reflection PuretAmbriosia and it just made me think about what an atheist strives for in life. As an atheist what is your purpose within society? Wealth, women, and status will not accompany you to the grave so what other reason can an atheist have for living? Yes, it is valid to say that you wish to contriubte to a future society more advanced and prosperous than the current, yet what individual gain do you recieve for your own well being? how will honour and a place in History be beneficial to you after you have passed away and are simply a worthless heap of dirt.

In addition, many members have said that I'm using this thread as bait to convert atheists THAT IS NOT TRUE!!!I myself have just recently accepted the undeniable existance of god but I strongly belivieve that GOD will guide whom he wills, hence there is no point in attempting to convert you rather I am curious about your beliefs for the sake of knowledge.

[جوري]

:sl:
shokran akhi:

Everyone indeed wants to contribute to the future-- I believe it was 3li ibn Abi talib who said, work in this world as if you'd live forever, prepare for the hereafter as if you were to die tomorrow... I believe Gandhi later took that line and put a spin on it...

Personally.. I find no purpose in trying to get people to see things they are obviously not going to.. I know because I was there too.. I couldn't stand the sound of any sheikh's reciting Quran, I swear to G-d, It made me think of death and darkness.. .. once your heart is closed, there is no one that can unlock it for you.. once it is open, no one can close it for you... it is between you and the lord... He knows of your heart and your intent...

The only thing that peeves me is the ridiculous questions, and provocations, I assume on some level they come here to mock, not learn and is evident just rummaging through some of the posts.. in fact I wrote this to a fellow atheist yesterday about 'why G-D?' and why his rules.. and it the whole thread was deleted, as I believe it is a fellow who came to make mischief from his style of writing, he looked like someone banned and again recycled.. It just baffles me.. why not live and let live?
Anyhow, I'll end with a note from my previous post....

why G-D?.. seems very fair for every man/woman/child/ beast to question.. thing is no one can give you their distilled version of why, they might at best bring it down to a low common denominator... to me it seems a bit foolish to ask all sorts of ancillary questions when you haven't established a base line ( in this case of G-d'S existence) ..
Assimilate this to; instead of asking a man why he choose surgery for a career path, in lieu of asking of the ritualistic practices he performs in the way of cleansing before each surgery -- why does he have to follow a silly protocol of scrubbing each finger 5 times separately with povidone-iodine then to the wrist and to the elbows if he is going to eventually double glove before giving someone a Laparoscopic Right Hemicolectomy in which case his contact with the patient is minimal at best.. what is the point of scrubbing , gowning and gloving? You see you are asking from the middle.. How would he answer that? pffft, I don't know.. possibly shrug his shoulders and move on with his life--
Same here.. you are asking from the middle.. you need to first establish if there is a G-D...
in my humble opinion there are only two choices to the question.. yes there is a G-D, no there isn't.. again I can give you the life time assessment, but I think this is a path each man goes it alone--or I can tell you one simple thing like the rapid binding of GTP to a membrane-associated protein, in heptocytes causing metabolism and decrease in intracellular glycogen stores releasing glucose into the blood amazes me..

from a cellular level, I don't believe that to be a chance happening.. Yes protein kinase A does it, not cGMP protein kinase, or tyrosine specific protein kinase, not Janus protein kinase.. no each one though sounds so sophisticated as they are indeed, are assigned a specific function and don't stray. One affects hormones, one affects smooth muscle, one affects protein synthesis...it is all tireless, flawless and around the clock.. it is also so very tiny, that unless you are looking for it, perhaps you can go a life time not knowing of it, perhaps only when one is afflicted one might wonder why is my Carbamoyl Phosphate Synthetase I deficient or mal-functioning, or why is my Ornithine Transcarbamylase missing.. but no one sits around and thinks of that... though they keep us alive and functioning, not peeing pure acid or going into a coma.. you might not care or give thanks or even consider giving a ****.. No one wakes up in the morning thinking wow thank you G-D I don't have Torsade de Pointes today... you see, we all collectively think it is physiological and the norm, but we never give much thought as to why it is the norm... Things don't just function.. the clothes won't wash themselves, anymore than dinner cooks itself and presents itself on the table for your viewing and eating pleasures... nucleotide sequences don't just assemble into perfect little functioning proteins on their own volition.

There is a thought here, and intelligent thought... I am not just talking about heart, liver or kidney.. I am talking about the universe in its entirety.. What is the probability that an unbiased coin will fall on its side? might happen, even if just fell out of pocket... but for an infinite number of coins to fall on their side neither heads or tales, well let's say as a Muslim woman, I'd have to be into magical thinking to believe it is all due to chance alone!...
Now why does G-D ask this or that from us, I feel no need to explain unless we are meeting half way, because everything comes with quite an expansive explanation...

[snakelegs]

:sl:
Personally.. I find no purpose in trying to get people to see things they are obviously not going to.. I know because I was there too.. I couldn't stand the sound of any sheikh's reciting Quran, I swear to G-d, It made me think of death and darkness.. .. once your heart is closed, there is no one that can unlock it for you.. once it is open, no one can close it for you... it is between you and the lord... He knows of your heart and your intent...

couldn't agree more.
why do so many people seem to find it necessary to change other people instead of letting them be? (great mystery #5,179)

[Skywalker]

I've been reading through this thread in interest, and so far the only thing that I can't even begin to comprehend is this line:

Looking around I see no evidence of a designing hand in nature

For some reason that statement just doesn't go through my head. :confused:

[Gator]

I've been reading through this thread in interest, and so far the only thing that I can't even begin to comprehend is this line:

For some reason that statement just doesn't go through my head. :confused:

Yeah, its funny how we can look at the same things and come to very different conclusions.

That's why I like these type of boards. You can try to get an glimpse of other people's thought processes and possibly and insight into them.

[ranma1/2]

I always cringe when I see a statement challenging somebody to prove that something does not exist. On the surface that sounds like a very simple. provable statement. Yet, it is impossible to answer. We as humans do not have the means to prove that something does not exist.

Standards can be established to validate the existence of something. But, that does not hold true to prove that something does not exist. There can always be an explanation as to why something appears to exist. But, if it is not mutually accepted that is proof of existence, there is no proof shown. There are no known criteria to show that something does not exist.

I firmly believe in the existence and truth of Allah(swt). But, I can not expect somebody to prove he does not exist. The challange is for me to offer proof that He does exist. I am satisfied that I have seen sufficient evidence to convince me. But, I do know I have to accept the fact that others will view that simply as evidence and not as proof.

No person is capable of offering me proof that Allah(swt) does not exist. There is no point in my even asking such a question. My goal is better directed to establish a common means of communication and establish mutually acceptable standards of validation of proof. This comes down to being an individual task for me and strictly one to one contact, generalities are very limited.

well said. i think the phrase was
absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[جوري]

Somehow that does not sound very religious to me.
I believe that form of "Religion" is being replaced by rap singers and TV celebrities.

actually what you describe does not sound all that good.

"throw gifts at you," sounds like something an angry immature young wife would do, cause her husband said something she didn't like.


"your feet get oiled." That happens to oil field workers often. They complain about the difficulty in getting it off.

That is what I call the 'ratiocination' of someone who read a brochure and envisioned himself a connoisseur.. it happens all the time and in all circles... Even if one were to concern themselves with what is an axiomatic truth, one would see at least as far as prophet Mohammed PBUH is concerned, that has died with his armor pawned to a Jew.. Never slept on a full stomach three days in a row.. and slept on leaves that used to leave lashing marks on his body... perhaps there is a new kind of history being re-written on blogs? I'd have to call it the 'barnacle goose truth' -- but it won't cut it in history.. it is neither amusing, nor satirical.. just 'goosey' and foolish!

I suppose a couple of charismatic cultists are loose on the forum, in search of like minded enthusiasts, as I see no other purpose for this ridiculous anserine comments and behavior!
:w:

[S@K!N@H]

However, god can be everywhere at the same time.



-

that must mean u dnt understand god in islam. He Hears all sees all, god is not everywhere at the sametime. he has power over all things and can do as he pleases but to say god is everywhere is wrong. god is on his throne above the 7 heaves. his 99 names discribe him best,so if u really wanna learn who god is, learn and understand the deep meaning of these names and u will see
if he exists or not. and please think deeply not jst read like most people do with the quran and then they think they have understood it, when they havent even thought for second wat it means.

if im honest i think most people need god, bcoz most the things we find to be a part of human nature cum religion. how do we know not to kill or rape, all these morals came from religion. how does human nature work then without god? human nature is to believe in god and there are a few who go against their nature.

and jst to add something i really dnt understand y some people cum on this forum mocking islam when they should cum to learn and not mock.:confused:

[Sunni Student]

My Argument

This is a syllogysm, which is a argument, in 3 parts, if the first 2 are correct the third must logically follow, here goes...


1) Belief in God is based on Faith not proof.

2) Belief of the non-existence of a God is based on proof or the lack of it not faith.

3) Until there is proof that God doesn't exist you must have faith in God

How do the atheists reply to this?

[wilberhum]

My Argument

This is a syllogysm, which is a argument, in 3 parts, if the first 2 are correct the third must logically follow, here goes...


1) Belief in God is based on Faith not proof.

2) Belief of the non-existence of a God is based on proof or the lack of it not faith.

3) Until there is proof that God doesn't exist you must have faith in God

How do the atheists reply to this?

Until there is proof that flying invisible pink unicorns exist you must have faith in the FSM.

[ranma1/2]

My Argument

This is a syllogysm, which is a argument, in 3 parts, if the first 2 are correct the third must logically follow, here goes...

1) Belief in God is based on Faith not proof.
2) Belief of the non-existence of a God is based on proof or the lack of it not faith.
3) Until there is proof that God doesn't exist you must have faith in God

How do the atheists reply to this?

1) agree ,except id say evidence instead of proof.
2) disagree. Its just a default.
3) not sure what your saying here. But untill there is evidence in a gods existence all belief in it is faith. Or not based on evidence.

[Keltoi]

To my mind, athiesm, while not a religion, has many of the same characteristics. However, instead of looking to the Bible or the Qu'ran, they look to science as the authority. Science is unable to prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, so by default, unless science can prove that God exists then God does not exist. Personally, I don't find a conflict between science and God. Science studies processes and natural phenomena, while religion is concerned with the source of these processes and natural phenomena. Two different paths of study, but I believe both paths lead to the same place. Of course athiests will not agree, but there are scientists out there that do agree.

[wilberhum]

To my mind, athiesm, while not a religion, has many of the same characteristics. However, instead of looking to the Bible or the Qu'ran, they look to science as the authority. Science is unable to prove or disprove the existence of a higher power, so by default, unless science can prove that God exists then God does not exist. Personally, I don't find a conflict between science and God. Science studies processes and natural phenomena, while religion is concerned with the source of these processes and natural phenomena. Two different paths of study, but I believe both paths lead to the same place. Of course athiests will not agree, but there are scientists out there that do agree.

I think if you read any of the atheist reasons, you will find they are based on Philosophy not science.
They only use science to show theists that there system is based on faith and not facts and of course, regardless of what theists say, 'There is no proof". :giggling:

[Keltoi]

I think if you read any of the atheist reasons, you will find they are based on Philosophy not science.
They only use science to show theists that there system is based on faith and not facts and of course, regardless of what theists say, 'There is no proof". :giggling:

Be that as it may, athiests "use" science in order to counter religious beliefs, as you stated yourself. Athiests vs. theists is the point of the thread, so science will automatically become the battlefield. My overall point, which perhaps I didn't make clear enough, is that I believe many believers tend to look at science as an enemy of faith. That is a sad reality, and not necessary at all. Science actually reinforces my faith, because to me the more science uncovers about the design of nature and the universe, the more it becomes apparent that this design is anything but random. I don't expect athiests or all scientists to agree, just a personal observation.

[wilberhum]

Be that as it may, athiests "use" science in order to counter religious beliefs, as you stated yourself. Athiests vs. theists is the point of the thread, so science will automatically become the battlefield. My overall point, which perhaps I didn't make clear enough, is that I believe many believers tend to look at science as an enemy of faith. That is a sad reality, and not necessary at all. Science actually reinforces my faith, because to me the more science uncovers about the design of nature and the universe, the more it becomes apparent that this design is anything but random. I don't expect athiests or all scientists to agree, just a personal observation.

For the most part I agree. The exception is when a scientific conclusion is in direct conflict with a holy book. IE: Creation did not occure over some set of 24 hour periods but over billions of years. Human evolution, Etc.

[Uthman]

Me again. :D

Creation did not occure over some set of 24 hour periods but over billions of years. Human evolution, Etc.

Which holy book claims that?

Regards

[wilberhum]

Me again. :D
Which holy book claims that?
Regards

Every religion I have ever read anything about has a "Creation Story". :D Can you point out one that doesn't?
:giggling:

[جوري]

I'll have to agree with Keltoi.. science can only reinforce the faith... they are beautifully coalesced and symbiotic...

I suppose one needs to actually be immersed into both studies to see a full integration... the few Atheists on board aren't able to integrate the 'science' they know so that it would hold any intelligible meaning --to science itself, to philosophy or to simple every day living... They are running around like headless chickens... and the best any of us can hope for is a splendiferous 'you don't understand' or 'why don't you read' :lol:--
Doesn't that question go both ways?

peace!

[Uthman]

Every religion I have ever read anything about has a "Creation Story". :D Can you point out one that doesn't?
:giggling:

Sorry, I meant the '24 hour' part. :)

[wilberhum]

Sorry, I meant the '24 hour' part. :)

Why? :confused: How many days do you think it took? :hiding:

[ranma1/2]

Be that as it may, athiests "use" science in order to counter religious beliefs, as you stated yourself. Athiests vs. theists is the point of the thread, so science will automatically become the battlefield. My overall point, which perhaps I didn't make clear enough, is that I believe many believers tend to look at science as an enemy of faith. That is a sad reality, and not necessary at all. Science actually reinforces my faith, because to me the more science uncovers about the design of nature and the universe, the more it becomes apparent that this design is anything but random. I don't expect athiests or all scientists to agree, just a personal observation.

atheism is pretty much a philosophy. ANd yes many use science to disprove different religious ideas.

rel= we came from clay, corn, etc...
science= shows this not to be true.

etc...

rel= earth flat
science= nope...

etc..

[Uthman]

Why? :confused: How many days do you think it took? :hiding:

Six days. But not six 24-hour periods. Here's some cut n paste:

The Qur'an states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54). While on the surface this might seem similar to the account related in the Bible, there are some important distinctions.

The verses that mention "six days" use the Arabic word "youm" (day). This word appears several other times in the Qur'an, each denoting a different measurement of time. In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). The word "youm" is thus understood, within the Qur'an, to be a long period of time -- an era or eon. Therefore, Muslims interpret the description of a "six day" creation as six distinct periods or eons. The length of these periods is not precisely defined, nor are the specific developments that took place during each period.

Source

Regards

[wilberhum]

Six days. But not six 24-hour periods. Here's some cut n paste:

The Qur'an states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54). While on the surface this might seem similar to the account related in the Bible, there are some important distinctions.

The verses that mention "six days" use the Arabic word "youm" (day). This word appears several other times in the Qur'an, each denoting a different measurement of time. In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). The word "youm" is thus understood, within the Qur'an, to be a long period of time -- an era or eon. Therefore, Muslims interpret the description of a "six day" creation as six distinct periods or eons. The length of these periods is not precisely defined, nor are the specific developments that took place during each period.

Source

Regards

:hmm: SSDD
:thumbs_do
Excuses are always fun to read.

[Uthman]

Thought you might say that. I won't try to convince you otherwise. :)

[Uthman]

Actually I will. Will you not at least attack the explanation given? Please?

[wilberhum]

Actually I will. Will you not at least attack the explanation given? Please?

Oh dang it. :embarrass OK.

This word appears several other times in the Qur'an, each denoting a different measurement of time.

So there is no way to determine the amount of time. So "No Answer" can not be a "Wrong Answer". But also, it can not be a "Correct Answer". :shade:

If I remember right. (I often don't:uuh: ) Humans did not evolve; they can from outer space or something like that, after they were made from clay. (Don’t get hug up on the particulars if I got any of it wrong, it won’t change the conclusion)
Cool for a belief but not too scientific. Now some work around that and some don't.
It is obvious that not all Muslims interoperate all things in the Quran the same.
:p

[Darkseid]

If there were a god he would come for an occasional visit.

He would give us a state of the union address and keep us up to date on the latest developments in heaven and hell.

Apparently he can be everywhere at once. And yet, there are some who claim, that from time to time, he has sent angels to deliver messages. Maybe he was too busy to deliver it himself. If he can be everywhere at once why does he need angels?

Also, why does he need satan? I would have thought an all powerful god, could light an eternal fire without having to employ somebody to tend the fire?

God, angels and satan are all inventions of man
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Perception is an invention of man, reality is not.

[wilberhum]

A man's perception is his reality.

Joe98 makes logical statements that Darkseid seams unable to respond to.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i notice from joe98 that he doesnt realise Allahs majesty


if Allah was to deliver a message himself he would expose himself, and if he exposes himself to us then that is like the greatest reward and happiness we can wish for. It is something which makes heaven what it is. Thus Allah in his wisdom and majesty is delaying the day he will reveal himself to us.

A lot of people dont understand Allahs majesty, he has a way he does things, it doesnt belittle his Lordship or his being a God at all !