Sabianism

[Sabi]

Bismillah Alrahman Alrahim,

Assalaamu aleikum warahmatullah wabarakhatuh

The wiki site is largely erroneous. However the Islam Q&A site explanation I can not find muchj argument with at all. We have suffered a lot as a community since the Attack on Afghanistan (There was a great Sabi teacher in Herat under state protection called Abu Yahyah, but we have not heard from him since America invaded), also The infrastructure in Iraq has been totally disabled. Only a few of us are still in loose contact with each other one sabi in Australia one in America, one in India and me in the UK now.

We call ourselves Saabi`ah Hunafa` and we consider ourselves to be of Ibreem/a.k.a.Ibraheem (SAW)'s community. There is a tradition that Abram (SAW)'s father (we call him Terah) was a polytheist, but those who followed Ibreem (SAW) away from polytheism became the Saabi`ah Hunafa`. I am not an Alim by any means, but I can not say that I have ever heard of a polytheistic Sabi as long as I have been a Sabi (which is more than 11 years). We do consider that Muhammad (SAW) was a Haneef just like Ibreem and the rest of us, and we do believe the noble Quran is a revealed book.

There are 6 fundamentals all Sabieen must follow, and these are No idolatry, No lewdity, No blasphemy, No killing, No Stealing, and No Treifah (i.e. Haram food), but there is also one all important positive command and that is to support the establishment of and then submit to a system of Din which enforces (this is my choice of word) these other six fundamentals until such time, should it come around, that this system fails to satisfy this duty, at which point we should strive to re-establish a system of Din which does.

The 7 principles all together constitute the religion that the first Rasool Prophet Nooh (SAW) brought to the world which was forgotten by the world after Yusuf (SAW) until it was revealed again to Moosa (SAW) at mount Sinai for the whole world, through Moosa (SAW and his brother Haroon (SAW) and Moosa's father in law Shuaib (SAW). The religion of Nooh has been reiterated by every prophet since Moosa (SAW). We did not know what the name of the religion was until it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (SAW).

So why are Sabieen not within the fold of islam? Belief in the prophets (SAW) is not compulsory, and must be based upon an individual's own reasoning or personal experience but I was told that salvation can not really be attained without coming to such a belief. Also we believe that the greatest leader the world will ever know is `Isa Al-Maseeh ibn Maryim. We call Prophet Muhammad (SAW) by the name Abu Al-Qasim (SAW) We do not believe that there ere any more revealed books after The Quran, but do not believe that Wahy has ceased and use the the word mahomet as a title for all who have wahy (which we call ehmet). Of course if someone claims to have Wahy and what they say is not in perfect harmony with what has already been revealed in the previous scriptures, then even if what that person predicts does indeed come to pass, it is irrelevant and that person should be disregarded as a mad, wicked or lying false prophet.

There is a small page on the internet called sebomenoi.com which has a little more information about the Sabieen which is trustworthy. However there is lots of false information about Sabieen out there the biggest lie being that the the YaziDi and the Mandaean Nasaraeans are Sabians which is a false lie.

The group called the YaziDi follow the same religion that Ibreem's father Terach followed. They sometimes try to call themselves Sabians too, but they are certainly not. They are in fact the true and original "Notzrim" or "Watchmen" followers of the fallen angel called ShemYaza. Just like the YaziDi, Mandaeans are gnostics (while in contrast true sabieen do not claim any special knowledge) who do not believe in `Isa (SAW) nor Abu Al-Qasim (SAW) and even if they began as Sabieen their false teachers have put a wall around themselves and have tried to mislead people into a cult. The distinguishing factor in both religions, as well as all religions that derive from them, is that they have degrees of initiation through which their acolytes pass until they reach the Gnosis at the top that they follow ShemYaza.

To a certain extent it could be said that these two groups are the Saabi`ah mushrikoon, spoken about by the scholars but to allow them to use the name Sabi for themselves at all is to be too liberal. It is better that they be converted to islam than remain in such a cult. They can not call themselves Saabi`ah Hunafa`.

The only reason Saabi`ah Hunafa` know about these things is because Ibreem (SAW) and his followers came from them and knew their religion, so the inside of their religion is exposed to us. The Prophet Abu Al-Qasim (SAW) knew all this about them very well indeed.

We do believe that we descend from Cain, and we do not try to justify ourselves as descended from Seth. We are repentant and can not be held accountable for the sins of our ancestors. It is wrong for the Saabi`ah mushrikoon to say that they descend from Seth and deny the fact that their ancestor murdered righteous Abel. All we can do is repent from this ancestry. This is where the Christians got their doctrine of original sin from, but they have gone too far in misunderstanding.

I hope this helps
Assalaamu aleikum warahmatullah wabarakhatuh

[Muhammad]

Greetings Sabi,

Welcome to the forum.

we do believe the noble Quran is a revealed book.

So why are Sabieen not within the fold of islam? Belief in the prophets (SAW) is not compulsory, and must be based upon an individual's own reasoning or personal experience but I was told that salvation can not really be attained without coming to such a belief.

We do not believe that there ere any more revealed books after The Quran, but do not believe that Wahy has ceased and use the the word mahomet as a title for all who have wahy (which we call ehmet).

You say that you believe the Qur'an is a revealed book, yet how do you account for the following verses:

[4.150-151] Surely those who disbelieve in Allah and His apostles and (those who) desire to make a distinction between Allah and His apostles and say: We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and desire to take a course between (this and) that. These it is that are truly unbelievers, and We have prepared for the unbelievers a disgraceful chastisement.

This goes against the notion that "belief in the Prophets is not compulsory".


[33.40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Apostle of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

And this shows that none can receive revelation after Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) since he was the last of the Prophets.

Peace.

[Sabi]

Bismillah alrahman alrahim

Wa Alikum Peace Muhammad

Thank you for the dawa.

We only trust the original arabic version of the Quran and belief must be based upon an individual's own reasoning or personal experience.

I do not expect it to make sense, neither should I try to make it sensible to others, otherwise I would be guilty of coming close to giving dawa to others to become Sabi`een and that is not what Sabi`een are supposed to do. We do not recruit.

:brother:

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Thank you for your reply :).

We only trust the original arabic version of the Quran and belief must be based upon an individual's own reasoning or personal experience.

The "original arabic version of the Qur'an" is what is in use today, since there is only one "version" of the Qur'an. As for belief being based upon a person's own reasoning or personal experience, would this not allow for people picking and choosing what suits them and opening the door to error when people without knowledge are left to become misguided?

I do not expect it to make sense, neither should I try to make it sensible to others, otherwise I would be guilty of coming close to giving dawa to others to become Sabi`een and that is not what Sabi`een are supposed to do. We do not recruit.

Do you not believe that you are following the true religion? If so, should you not expect it to make sense? As Muslims, we believe we are following the true Guidance sent by God, and therefore we try to share that guidance with as many people as we can.

Peace.

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[Sabi]

Bismillah alrahman alrahim

And upon you be Peace Muhammad

Thank you for the continued dawa.

By only using the arabic, I meant that if you wish to use the Quran for me you will have to use the arabic and not a translation. I am not saying that the translations available do not hold some value in them, but simply that Sabi`een only use the scriptures as they are available in their earliest published languages. If one day the Arabic Quran should be lost then at that time we would be allowed to learn from a translation, but since the arabic is still around we do not learn from translations.

It is difficult to classify Hanifa` (i.e. tawheed which is what we call "sabianism") as a religion because each Sabi only implements what they understand through personal experience/reasoning. I suppose you could say that we are people on a journey or quest, while other muslims are people who have already arrived at their destination. I could call a sunni big brother or uncle for example if it seemed to me that the sunni really knew about their faith but I would not be obligated to take their words for it, I would have to come to an experiential understanding inside of myself.

The reason I should not expect others to understand is because I am talking from my own experience, which should logically be much more basic compared to that of someone who has conviction in their own faith. Perhaps to put it another way, You might have forgotten what it is like to think like me, or I might not be at the same level to be able to think like you. There is no shame upon me inthis it is simply what Allah (SWT) has ordained for me and I must not be upset about this.

Peace

:brother:

P.S. I do not mean to imply that Sabi`een believe that sunnis or Shiites or other muslims follow the best religion, since in order to avoid any claim of gnosis (to which we are opposed) Sabi`een to not consider any religion to be better than another not even our own.

[Muhammad]

Greetings Sabi,

Thank you again for your reply :)

By only using the arabic, I meant that if you wish to use the Quran for me you will have to use the arabic and not a translation. I am not saying that the translations available do not hold some value in them, but simply that Sabi`een only use the scriptures as they are available in their earliest published languages.

I see what you mean, but does not a translation attempt to get across the meaning of the original language? So that whether I used the translation or the original arabic, it should still convey the same message, although of course the original language would be more accurate.

It is difficult to classify Hanifa` (i.e. tawheed which is what we call "sabianism") as a religion because each Sabi only implements what they understand through personal experience/reasoning.

You might already be aware of the fact that Muslims take their religion from the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Final Messenger (peace be upon him). May I ask where you take your religion from and why you believe you should only follow by "personal experience"? And how has personal experience enabled you to understand what you do now?

There is no shame upon me inthis it is simply what Allah (SWT) has ordained for me and I must not be upset about this.

As above, is there any evidence that this is what Allaah (swt) has ordained for you?

Peace.

[Sabi]

And upon you be peace again big Brother,

And thank you always for the dawa,

We do use something called "The Hymns" or "Zaboor" in Arabic, in which we find comfort, but again understanding is a personal thing. This together with the Injeel ar like the core of our belief (I personaly am convinced that The Gideons, red pocket NT&Psalms is based upon the Sabi`een scriptures). Of course Sabi`een do talk to each other about our experiences and opinions, but must not expect another to believe what one person believes simply because we have tried to explain it to them. I have to be careful of saying more now because it is an offence for me to seem like I am giving dawa. As far as Muslims are concerned you can regard us as being kinds of messianist who read the Quran and are interested in Islam but have not yet come to embraced it in the same way as most muslims in the world have. We do support the establishment of a Shariah state, since without such a system we can not really do well in following the religion of Nooh (SAW) which has been re-iterated by every prophet since.

Hope this helps.

Wa Salaam

:brother:

[Sabi]

P.S. I forgot to address three of your very important querstions.

1) May I ask ... why you believe you should only follow by "personal experience"?

That is all I can vouch for on the day of Judgement

2) How has personal experience enabled you to understand what you do now?

To explain this I would have to walk you through my life, which I am not willing to do on a public board on the Internet, but if you are sure you will not be bored by my story and if you really are interestred, then we can correspond.

3) Is there any evidence that this (not being a muslim) is what Allaah (swt) has ordained for you?

No evidence only that we believe in predestination. I am what I am because this is the way Allah (SWT) has decreed it to be. I wish there was a way to know who is guided and who is not, but those whom Allah (SWT) guides none may lead astray and those whom Allah (SWT) leads astray none may guide. Since Judgement is in the hands of Allah (SWT) and no human is worthy to take it from these hands, I can only hope and pray that I am guided and be satisfied with my position in life without lying to myself and without envying the personal experience of others.

Peace

:brother:

[Muhammad]

Greetings Sabi,

Thank you for your reply :)

You mentioned that you read the Qur'an. Do you consider it to be the Word of Allaah and believe it to be true? If so, do you not follow its commands with regards to following what Allaah has enjoined and avoiding that which He has prohibited? Allaah says, (the interpretation of which is):

4:135 ... Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.

No evidence only that we believe in predestination. I am what I am because this is the way Allah (SWT) has decreed it to be.

This argument of predestination has been mentioned in the Qur'an:

16:35 The worshippers of false gods say: "If Allah had so willed, we should not have worshipped aught but Him - neither we nor our fathers,- nor should we have prescribed prohibitions other than His." So did those who went before them. But what is the mission of apostles but to preach the Clear Message?

So while there is predestination, it is upon the person to find out what is right and wrong and act accordingly.

Peace.

[Sabi]

Thank you for bringing these verses to my attention. I will consider them within the capacity wwith which I have been granted.

Jizakhallah Khair

Wa Salaam

:brother:

[Sabi]

Upon consideration 16:35 most certainly does not apply to Sabi belief in predestination. It applies to those who worship false gods. This can not be Sabi`een because our Shahada is La ilahah il Allah.

As for verse 4:135, we follow evidence and reasoning where evidence is lacking, not vain desires.

Salaam

:brother:

[NahidSarvy]

I have a question; can anyone step up with daleel?

OK: first, the Qur'ânic verse Sûratu l-Baqarah (2) 62:

Surely the believers and the Jews, Nazaræans (Christians) and as-Sâbi'în, whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will have neither fear nor regret.

Okay, we know this verse.

Now here is what revered Tabari says about the word; Tafsîru t-Tabârî, 2/145; "Lisân al-3Arab", heading 'Saba'a':

As-sâbi’ûn is the plural of sâbi’, which means one who has changed his religion, such as an apostate from Islam who has left his religion or anyone who leaves the religion that he used to follow and joined another. The Arabs called such a person sâbi’…

(Emphasis mine).

So here's my question: if Sâbi's include Muslim apostates, does this mean that a convert from Islam to another religion wherein s/he believes in monotheism and the Last Day will go to Heaven?

The Qur'ân says the following people go to heaven:
1. Believers (i.e. Muslims)
2. Jews
3. Nazaræans
4. Sâbi'ûn
5. Those who believe in God and the Last Day
6. Those who do good deeds

I'm curious what else has been said on this potentially tendentious subject.

[NahidSarvy]

Oh & FYI, my Concise Dictionary of Koranic Arabic (ISBN 3-89500-400-6) agrees with the webpages that cite a potential Aramaic borrowing:

...a religious group listed in their three places (2/62, 5/69, 22/17) together with the Believers (i.e., the Moslems), the Jews and the Christians; their identification and the derivation of their name are uncl.; most commonly they are assumed to be a group called after their baptistmal practices, bearing a name derived from Aramaic 9-b-3/9-b-' 'dipping', baptizing' (akin to Arabic 9-b-gh)...

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I'm curious what else has been said on this potentially tendentious subject.

http://load-islam.com/c/rebuttals/Sa...or_non-Muslims
I've provided an in-depth analysis of this verse based on the Qur'an and Ahadith and have cited the consensus of the mufassireen [including Ibn Jarir]. In light of the evidence, it becomes clear that the Qur'an and Sunnah do NOT guarantee heaven to anyone who rejects the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, let alone an apostate.

:w:

[Sabi]

Salaam Nahid Sarvy,

I am quite sure that when Tabari wrote "such as an apostate from Islam who has left his religion " he was certainly only using the phrase as an example of the action and not as a specific reference to Muslim apostates. I have never met a Sabi who was once a muslim, and indeed if such a person did exist they would be regarded with great suspiciou by other Sabi`een, primarily because they would put the security of the Sabi community at risk. By this we mean that if one Sabi was found to be a muslim apostate and therefore worthy of the death penalty, what would stop fanatics from initiating death campaigns against all Sabi`een just in case? In fact this might be a reason why there are so few Sabi`een left in the world.

With this exception your research is accurate, and it is very charming indeed to see a muslim being so kind to our religion.

Salaam Ansar Al-`Adl,

Belief that only those who follow islam are saved might be one valid opinion in the islamic community today, but is certainly not the only valid opinion. (Bare in mind that the abrogation of Quranic verses through tafseer is not accepted by every madhab). Just like the opinions of the different madhabs are to be respected and one should not try to condemn the opinion of another Madhab because it disagrees with one's own, likewise it is not islamic to claim that there is only ever one opinion on the matter. Alhamdulilah, Islam was never meant to be a totalitarian regime, otherwise there would not be so many non muslims in the world today harking back to the glorious 1300 years of a caliphate, where tollerance, peace, science and art flourished.

You are of course entitled to your opinion brother, but I hope when the Caliphate is re-established that it is the same kind of Islam that flourished for 1300 years which rules and not the totalitarian travesty which western-influenced dualistic minds are pumping so much funding in to make it become (the political history of "islamicism" and "islamic nationalism" is clear). But of course from a Sabi perspective, I have to support the orthodox islamic 1300 years of the Madhabs since my life would depend upon it.

:brother:

Salaam

P.S. my way of life is not undisclosed, but the administrators have not yet made the sabi option available in the drop-down list. Hint Hint. ;)

P.P.S. The Sabi religion is called Sibghatullah (not "sabianism"). Hint. ;)

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

It is nice to see you back again :).

Upon consideration 16:35 most certainly does not apply to Sabi belief in predestination. It applies to those who worship false gods. This can not be Sabi`een because our Shahada is La ilahah il Allah.

I quoted that verse because I thought the principle might apply, even though its immediate reference is to those who worship false gods, since they used the argument that if Allaah had so willed, they would not have fallen into any error.

As for verse 4:135, we follow evidence and reasoning where evidence is lacking, not vain desires.

I am glad to hear that. Here are some more verses for you to consider:

[3.19] Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning.

[3.85] And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

my way of life is not undisclosed, but the administrators have not yet made the sabi option available in the drop-down list.

We shall try to sort something out Insha'Allaah :).

Also, how come you call your religion 'Sibghatullah', in light of the above two verses. I hope you do not mind me asking all these questions!

Peace.

[Sabi]

The two verses you quoted are among the very first verses that were brought to my attention when I was first learning about becomming a Sabi more than a decade ago. They are very important verses indeed. The terminology used in the Quran was recognisable to Sai`een, hence it is recommended for a Sabi to believe in it just as it is for a Sabi to believe in all scriptures and prophets, though this should be through one's own reasoning and not as a matter of cause.

There was a Sabi teacher, a very softly spoken and gently accented persian (he objected to artificial labels and lines upon maps invented by the British such as Iranian and Afghan) called Abu Yahiah from Gazarga in Afghanistan (sadly we have not heard from him since the wars) who said that the best way to answer such a question is to let ones actions speak for oneself, and not one's toungue. This is because the toungue is capable of deceit, while one's actions are not. Thus it would be pertinent of me to pronounce an interpretation the meaning of these verses, when Abu Yahiah said so little.

It is not because of some secret knowledge Sabis pretend to possess which can not be revealed to outsiders (such a gnostic attitude is frowned upon by the Sabi`ah Hunafa` and is only adopted by Sabi`ah Mushrikoon). It is because to a certain extent, "talk is cheap" as they say.

What I can say is that Sibghatullah is not a Din, but since "labels" are also frowned upon, it is the best "label" that can be found, and not a single Sabi would object to it (though I have met some who even being called Sabi!). I hope that you will not think that I have "shirked" (in the english sense of the word) the question. Hence all Sabi`ah Hunafa` are very pro the establishment of the Din. There were even stories from Afghanistan that some Sabis during the 70s would even call themselves muslims (in English we would say with a small M) in order to be allowed to fight for the establishment of the Din for the rest of their families to live in peace and harmony under.

Now I think I should button my lips before any other Sabis reading this think of me as a prattler.

:brother:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

SP.S. my way of life is not undisclosed, but the administrators have not yet made the sabi option available in the drop-down list. Hint Hint. ;)

I've added 'Sabian' - is that acceptable?

Peace.

[Sabi]

Jizakallah Khair Ansar
:brother:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Jizakallah Khair Ansar
:brother:

Your welcome and congratulations on being our first Sabian forum member :)

Belief that only those who follow islam are saved might be one valid opinion in the islamic community today, but is certainly not the only valid opinion.

I have demonstrated in the article itself why this view is the only one consistent with the Qur'an and the Ahadith as a whole, as well as the consensus of the scholars.

The issue of tolerance shouldn't even be a factor. As a Muslim, I sincerely believe that one must follow the message of the Prophet Muhammad pbuh if it reaches them and whoever rejects it, does so to their own peril - but that doesn't mean I will be abusive or harsh to such an individual. On the contrary, Islam commands me to treat others with respect, gentleness and compassion so they can witness the teachings of Islam. If every way of life was already acceptable the Prophet Muhammad pbuh and his companions would not have bothered calling non-muslims to Islam but they did because when God sends a Prophet, he is to be followed and accepted.

And as for the term sibaghatullah, this is really synonymous with Islam, because both entail submission to the will of God and following the Prophets He has sent.

Regards

[syilla]

i never know that they still exists...

or are they ?

[Sabi]

I hope we do! Unless I am a figment of my own imagination. :brother: It might be that you are confusing Sabians with Sabaeans which were the people from Saba who are mentioned in the Quran as a past nation as far as I can remember. One of the remnants of the Sabaean tribes (the Ansar) were supposed to have also been Sabian by religion too which would explain some more of the confusion. In Arabic the confusion does not exist because the two words are spelled with completely different initial letters Sabaean is spelled with a Sheen, and Sabian is spelled with a Saad. you can have a look at http://www.sebomenoi.com for more info. There are some very informative links on that site, even though the site itself is quite shabby.

[primitivefuture]

Do Sabians believe in a God?

[primitivefuture]

What is the difference between Sabians and Muslims?

[Sabi]

:sl: brother primitivefuture

Do Sabians believe in a God?

Is the Pope a Catholic?:happy:
Yes we do. The Sabi Shahada is "La ilahah il Allah".
If you have any more questions about Sabians please read through this thread http://www.islamicboard.com/depth-is...at-sabian.html I will be happy to answer any questions there on the matter.

:brother:

[Sabi]

WOW! this forum is really high-tech!

Its very cool that the messages get moved to the right place just like that.

So to answe your questions Br Primitivefuture, there are two kinds of Sabi namely Sabi`ah Hunafa` and Sabi`ah Mushrikoon. Of course I will answer your question brother only from the Sabi`ah Hunafa` perspective unless otherwise indicated, because I am a Sabi Haneef. The difference between Sabians and Muslims (with a capital M) is that Sabians are the same kind of monotheistic muslim (with a small m) that existed before the Quran was revealed. However, Sabis use faith and reasoning to arrive at understanding rather than pure faith, and a sabi is not expected to believe in anything that one has questions over. Thus we have very infrequently been mistakenly called Thomasines because people say we have weak faith like Doubting Thomas the disciple of `Isa (SAW) who would only believe what he saw.

Although it is considered a blessing and a salvation to believe in the prophets and to copy their example, it is not compulsory neither is it expected to be done blindly without critical thinking. Hence some people call us philosophers, but this is not accurate either.

Hope this helps.

:brother:

[*Sonya]

mashallah really nice topic
thnx for sharin

[Sabi]

Thank you sister.

I should perhaps make it clear that even though Sabi`een seem pretty close to Muslims, we are basically followers of `Isa (SAW) though we differer from Christians on a few important points. E.g. we are strictly Haneef and we support The Din. And Sabi Hell is called as-Sa'eer.

[seek.learn]

Assalam o alaikum wa rahmatullah,

SubhanAllah! Just today, a few hours back, I was wondering about the Sabians and was considering searching the Internet in hopes for some authentic information.

I have learnt a lot today.
JazakAllah.

Alaikum Salaam wa rahmatullah

[Sabi]

Glad you found it useful Brother.

[glo]

We only trust the original arabic version of the Quran and belief must be based upon an individual's own reasoning or personal experience.

Hi Sabi

How interesting to read about your faith! :thankyou:

The highlighted part of the above sentence caught my eye, because to my interpretation it seems different to the Islamic view I encounter in this forum, where the interpretation of the Qu'ran seems to be more the responsibility of scholars and imams rather than that of individuals ...

Would you say that Sabians place a greater emphasis on personal responsibility than mainstream Islam does?

Peace. :)

[Sabi]

Shalom Glo,

Yes Sibghatullah ("sabianism") places severe emphasis on personal responsibility. No we do not interpret the Quran willy nilly. Basically (this is only according to what I know from my teacher Abu Yahiah formerly of Herat Gazarga Afghanistan) Sabi scholars who were introduced to the Quran long ago, read it and found nothing in it which contradicts the Sabi faith but was in complete agreement with what we believe. Hence we accept that it is a revealed book. Indeed the Sabi tradition is that Muhammad (SAW) was a true prophet. However, I have come accross Muslims who have explained some things to me in a way which I can say is completely contrary to Sabi belief. Also there are certain Hadith which I have been told about (they were probably very weak non-sahih hadith) which would contradict the Sabi belief in Muhammad (SAW) as a true prophet. I am sure therefore that it is because of such differences, that the Sabi`een remained distinct from the Muslim community which began to grow after the death of The Prophet (SAW).

You must understand that there is no single way of interpreting the meanings of the glorious Quran in traditional orthodox Islam. Even though since 1975 there has been an heavily funded Saudi campaign to promote one opinion for the present (I think it is because of logistics with regards to Hajj emmerging with the modern world), there has always been a pluraliy of interpretations within the different Madhabs permissable within the folds of islam. I think the best phrase perhaps is parallel lines of thought. I was assured that the Sabi understanding is in complete harmony with at least some of those interpretations, with a few unique exceptions specifically with regards to the meanings of about five phrases in the entire Quran which were immediately recognizeable to the Sabi paradigm, but which have long since come to be understood in a very different way by other post-Quranic Muslims.

However, Sabi`een are not arrogant enough to consider these conventional interpretations to be misguided. In the Sabi view, "whoever followed (the Prophets) is blessed and saved" (Ibn Qayyim). Hence all muslims are considered to be within the folds of Sibghatullah even if they do not consider us to be in the folds of Islam. It is enough for us that we share the common ground of promoting the Din.

Hope this helps.

[glo]

You must understand that there is no single way of interpreting the meanings of the glorious Quran in traditional orthodox Islam.
Hope this helps.

Yes, it's very helpful and informative.

Keep talking ... I'm listening! :)

Blessings.

(edited to remove sentence)

[Sabi]

Keep talking ... I'm listening! :)

Certainly, what else would you like to know?

[glo]

Certainly, what else would you like to know?

Hi Sabi

Can you explain in more detail what you mean by "we are basically followers of `Isa (SAW) though we differer from Christians on a few important points."?

Peace.

[Sabi]

Well, we are much more concerned about pure monotheism than are most christians. Basically it comes down to a picture of the throne. Isa (SAW) is the head in the right hand, while Adon Joshua is that which sits upon the shoulders of the right hand. Abina is IN the throne, and hence is in Isa and in his mantle Adon Joshua, but Abina's Name (Allah) is high exulted beyond all association. Yet it is known by all those around the throne, hence also by Isa (SAW), hence his ability to perform miracles (by Allah's leave).

BTW Here is a very interesting (though quite seriously academic) article about Sabi`een from a non-sabi source (orientalist perspective) which is more objective for a western audience than anything I am likely to tell you.

http://www.ricerchefilosofiche.it/Sa...NR%2012_10.htm

Of course Sabi`een would criticize oritentalists talking about the Sibghatullah as much as other Muslims would criticize orientalists talking about Islam, but even so these two italian scholars have done quite a good job indeed.

[glo]

Well, we are much more concerned about pure monotheism than are most christians. Basically it comes down to a picture of the throne. Isa (SAW) is the head in the right hand, while Adon Joshua is that which sits upon the shoulders of the right hand. Abina is IN the throne, and hence is in Isa and in his mantle Adon Joshua, but Abina's Name (Allah) is high exulted beyond all association. Yet it is known by all those around the throne, hence also by Isa (SAW), hence his ability to perform miracles (by Allah's leave).

BTW Here is a very interesting (though quite seriously academic) article about Sabi`een from a non-sabi source (orientalist perspective) which is more objective for a western audience than anything I am likely to tell you.

http://www.ricerchefilosofiche.it/Sa...NR%2012_10.htm

Of course Sabi`een would criticize oritentalists talking about the Sibghatullah as much as other Muslims would criticize orientalists talking about Islam, but even so these two italian scholars have done quite a good job indeed.

Hi Sabi

I gather Abina is what you call God (?) Is it his name? Or a title?
Isa is Jesus?
Who is Adon Joshua?

Thanks for your link.
I'm afraid it will take me ages to read it all - let alone to understand it! ;D
Any chance that there is a condensed version I could read instead? :)

Thanks!

[Sabi]

Well there is always the Godfearers.Com website, I suppose, but it is a subjective approach rather than an objective one.

There is an OK article under http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians at wikipedia right now, but some western orientalist free-mason wants to remove all references to historical arabic refeences, so I doubt it will remain close enough to accurate for much longer.

Adon Jehoshua is the archetypeal heavenly messiah seated at The Right Hand.

Isa is Rish of the human brethren (and angelic host like for example Gabriel) constituting The Right Hand. Abina is the Spirit of God which resides in Heaven (i.e. in The Throne) which we call Our Father.

It is actually all very very simple, too simple in fact but people don't always get it because they are looking for more than there is. All of this is in the Zaboor.

:)

P.S. Sabi'een is the collective term for both Sabi'ah Hunafa' and Sabi'ah Mushrikoon, but Sabi'oon refers only to the Sabi'ah Hunafa'.

[Malaikah]

so if you are like christains why do you compare your self to muslims too? and do you veiw Isa pbuh as a prophet or god?:-\

[Sabi]

Mustafa Allah. `Isa (SAW) was a Human being!! High exaulted be Allah (SWT) beyond all they associate with Him!

Salaam Cheese,
We do not compare ourselves to Muslims, we are what we are. Perhaps you should try reading through this thread again more carefully since it seems you have some massive misconceptions.

Study well.

[shudnt_have]

:sl:

I cant find the short definitation of this word, 'sabi'?

i am too exhausted to look tonight. i shall contd tomarrow insha'allah.:sister:

[Malaikah]

Mustafa Allah. `Isa (SAW) was a Human being!! High exaulted be Allah (SWT) beyond all they associate with Him!

Salaam Cheese,
We do not compare ourselves to Muslims, we are what we are. Perhaps you should try reading through this thread again more carefully since it seems you have some massive misconceptions.

Study well.

You believe that the Quran is a revelation, your shahada is la illaha illa allah (at least i think thats what i read).. how is that not similar to muslims??:confused:

[Sabi]

You believe that the Quran is a revelation, your shahada is la illaha illa allah (at least i think thats what i read).. how is that not similar to muslims??:confused:

It is very similar. But we do not compare.

[~Juwairiyah~]

Characteristics of the Sabi religion (Seboghatullah)

Sābi'ūn know Allah as the ADON of adonim and GOD of gods and speak to angels in their meditations [20] , each of whom they believe dwell in different stars, which has led to the erroneous beliefs among some that Sābi'ūn worship angels while others derogatorily call them star-worshippers (and so it is said in Arabic saba'at al-nujūm, meaning "the stars appeared"). Sābi'ūn read from the Zabur and use the sun for a Qiblah facing the equator at mid day [21] [6] [7] [22] . Their fundamental teaching is "La ilahah il Allah" [2] [3] [16] , but besides this ardent unitarianism, Sābi'ūn are quite akin to Christians [8] [23] . Unlike their Mushrik Sabian cousins, who consider themselves the people of Idris' son Sabi, Hanif Sabians are more universal looking to Noah as their prophet of the Din [5] Sābi'ūn have five daily prayers [24] (though Zohar can join Asr while Ma'ariv can join Isha giving the appearance of three). They believe in all prophets reiterating the Din of Noah and, not in the same way as the muslims, believe in The Seal of The Prophets [25] . They also fast for 30 days [26] .

Sabians who adopt Abram as a patriarch distinguish themselves from other Sabians by calling themselves Hagarim (Hagarenes) and were based around Petra. The culmination of the journey to enlightenment will be marked by a circumcision ceremony for most of those male Hagarim who get to this level. This branch of Seboghatullah has thus been dubbed "Hagarism".

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians...boghatullah.29

Verily to Allah we belong and to Him is our return, this is pure shirk!

Allah (SWT) says (interpretation of the meaning), “Therefore turn in prayer to your Lord and sacrifice (to Him only)”

[al-Kawthar 108:2]

“Say (O Muhammad): Verily, my Salaah (prayer), my sacrifice, my living, and my dying are for Allaah, the Lord of the ‘Aalameen (mankind, jinn and all that exists)”

[al-An’aam 6:162]

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers) there are no helpers”

[al-Maa’idah 5:72]

“And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): Laa ilaaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allaah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)”[al-Anbiya’ 21:25]

Final Messenger/Prophet was our Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), and there is no Prophet after him, as Allah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the last (end) of the Prophets. And Allah is Ever All-Aware of everything”[al-Ahzaab 33:40]

May Allah (SWT) guide you to the right path, and may He (SWT) protect us all from shirk and disbelief...ameen

[Sabi]

Neither The Prophet (SAW) nor any of his followers nor any of the Ulema ever made such an accusation against the Sabiah Hunafa sister, so if you are doing so then you are claiming implicitly to be greater in knowledge than all of them together.

Make peace not war sister.

[Sabi]

An interesting fact I just discovered. Imaam Ash-Shawkaani considered the Sabiunah Hunefah (Agnostic-Monotheist Sabians) to be within the folds of islam and free from obligation to pay the Jiziyah because we believe that The Quran is a revealed book. It was very nice of him to suggest such a thing, but I personally would be very happy to pay the Jiziyah.

P.S. does anyone know what happened to the :coolbro: emoticon?

[Sabi]

With regards to who the Sabi Prophet is, the first answer is Noah (PBUH), and Abraham (PBUH) was the best example of someone following the religion Noah (PBUH) established. However, the second answer is not a prophet but a prophetess -Marym (PBUH). Marym considered the Jewish Messiah to be "the state of being saved/delivered" presented in her son 'Eso (PBWH) to the Prophet-Priest Yahiah (PBUH) who confirmed it.