Islam Is Here, Islam Is Peace

[silkworm]

Islam is here

Islam is peace, Islam is ease,
Islam's not danger or disease.
Islam is love and prosperity.
Islam's not hatred or adversity.

Islam is salvation through repentence.
Islam has love for all in abundance.
Islam means no harm or affliction.
Islam implores you with affection.

Islam is neither maze nor craze.
Islam is giving Allah all praise.
Islam is acing through the race.
Islam will be on everyone's face.

Islam is worshipping only the Creator.
Islam's not mere numbers on a calculator.
Islam gives you power when you surrender.
Islam's not for a terrorist or a pretender.

Islam is patience and perseverance.
Islam eases your vengeance through tolerance.
Islam is life for all eternity.
Islam gives you respect, moreover dignity.

Islam is winning hearts through honesty
Islam is giving openly in charity
Islam makes you wholesome and trustworthy
Islam is in wealth as well as in poverty.

Islam is your shield against all evil.
Islam is for your soul's retrieval.
Islam not fundamentalism or fanaticism.
Islam's not nationalism or racism. Wake up, people, Islam is here.
Islam is here, so have no fear.

[NYCmuslim]

Jazakallah'khair very nice brother!

Islam is the solution to all of humanities problems. Allah (swt) created us and He knows His creation better than we know ourselves. Islam is not a religion, it is a way of life. It is the legislation for humanity, the ultimate code of conduct, and the Qur'an is the instruction manual for Allah's creation.

No democratic, theorcratic, communist, totalitarian, capitalist, or dictatorship system can exceed the governing system that Allah has given us. Put His system into effect and world peace is guaranteed.

Look at Islam through the Quran and sunnah, not through BBC or CNN.

:w:

[Kittygyal]

:sl:

:shade: :shade: :shade: :shade: :shade:

[czgibson]

Greetings,

No democratic, theorcratic, communist, totalitarian, capitalist, or dictatorship system can exceed the governing system that Allah has given us. Put His system into effect and world peace is guaranteed.

An Islamic system of government would be theocratic, wouldn't it?

Peace

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[guyabano]

No democratic, theorcratic, communist, totalitarian, capitalist, or dictatorship system can exceed the governing system that Allah has given us. Put His system into effect and world peace is guaranteed.

That might work in your place, but not in mine. We love democractic, and that will never change.
I could co-exist with muslims in peace, but never put myself under muslim law.

[ranma1/2]

That might work in your place, but not in mine. We love democractic, and that will never change.
I could co-exist with muslims in peace, but never put myself under muslim law.

ditto, plus that ive never heard of a successful alah style government that was of peace.

[☆ღUmm Uthmanღ☆]

salaamu alaikum...Ramadan Mubarak wa JazakumAllahu Khairun for sharing with us. Masha'Allah its very very beautiful & beneficial..wasalaamu alaikum

[wilberhum]

Originally Posted by guyabano View Post
That might work in your place, but not in mine. We love democractic, and that will never change.
I could co-exist with muslims in peace, but never put myself under muslim law.

Ditto

ditto, plus that ive never heard of a successful alah style government that was of peace.

Double Ditto.

[Woodrow]

Very nice poem. Let us all try to remember this is Ramadan and we all need to keep our replies in the spirit of peace. May the Peace of Ramadan extend beyond Ramadan for all of us.

[Shukri]

Very nice poem. Let us all try to remember this is Ramadan and we all need to keep our replies in the spirit of peace. May the Peace of Ramadan extend beyond Ramadan for all of us.

yup completly agree with him. Ramadan is the holy month so why not spread the love.

[silkworm]

Ramadan Mubarak Everybody...

[Woodrow]

Just a reminder. No arguments. Save any debates that may lead to arguments for the proper sections and the proper time.

[believer]

That might work in your place, but not in mine. We love democractic, and that will never change.
I could co-exist with muslims in peace, but never put myself under muslim law.

Hi Guyabano!

In the spirit of RAMADAN I bid you peace. Peace be unto you and your family... I believe there is no country in the world that is fully under an Islamic Law... (Muslim Law is a misnomer)... even Saudi Arabia is not entirely 100% adhering to Shariah Law... this is according to the Saudis themselves. The war torn Muslim dominated countries are not really governed by an Islamic Shairah government... they may seem like... but I believe they are Military controlled and yes... it is appropriate to call them Muslim controlled - considering that those governing them are Muslims by identity. I guess - If we look at it under this light yes I think I'll agree that we may call these countries under 'muslim law'... not "Islamic Law".:D

:peace: :peace: :peace: :peace: :peace: :peace: :peace:

[asadxyz]

ditto, plus that ive never heard of a successful alah style government that was of peace.

If democracy says ;
1:flourish the porn industry
2:Exploit the females sexually
3:Kill the people by patoronizing Alcohol.
,then atheists must of be happy.Why not after all ??

[Isambard]

If democracy says ;
1:flourish the porn industry
2:Exploit the females sexually
3:Kill the people by patoronizing Alcohol.
,then atheists must of be happy.Why not after all ??

Actually, democracy keeps ppl with dumb opinions from being killed by more powerful groups.

Perhaps its just me, but I like not being set ablaze because a dominant religious/political groups doesnt like me.

[Md Mashud]

Actually, democracy keeps ppl with dumb opinions from being killed by more powerful groups.

Perhaps its just me, but I like not being set ablaze because a dominant religious/political groups doesnt like me.

The difference between Islamic sharia and government - although both may have the same goals to attain to - is one believes in prevention is better than cure - while the other focuses on controlling the problem and avoids preventing cause due to human demand/pleasure and believes in educating people to stay away from gross missconduct in hope it will prevail... Somthing like that.

[believer]

Actually, democracy keeps ppl with dumb opinions from being killed by more powerful groups.

Perhaps its just me, but I like not being set ablaze because a dominant religious/political groups doesnt like me.

Democracy is good... but it is intended for a people who are responsible... the flaw here is that even the bad guys can do anything they want.

Theocracy is better since it keeps the hostile and dangerous people controlled.

[Keltoi]

Democracy is good... but it is intended for a people who are responsible... the flaw here is that even the bad guys can do anything they want.

Theocracy is better since it keeps the hostile and dangerous people controlled.

Theocracy controls everyone and everything, not just "hostile" or "dangerous" people. A democracy can punish those who deserve it as well as any other form of government, but the difference is that in a democracy(in general) there are actually checks and balances to make sure the individual or individuals actually deserve to be "controlled".

[Isambard]

Democracy is good... but it is intended for a people who are responsible... the flaw here is that even the bad guys can do anything they want.

Theocracy is better since it keeps the hostile and dangerous people controlled.

Democracies have accountability. You do something you're not suppose to, you'll have a fure under you're @$$.

In a theocracy, how can anyone argue with God's (or insert deity of choice)'s ruler?.

For kicks, please show me a fair and equal theocracy that compares with some of the democracies of today.

[wilberhum]

Democracy is good... but it is intended for a people who are responsible... the flaw here is that even the bad guys can do anything they want.

Theocracy is better since it keeps the hostile and dangerous people controlled.

A theocracy also keeps independent thinking controlled. :hmm:

Since it works on the concept that it is perfect,
It becomes the most imperfect. :hiding:

[islamirama]

Democracies have accountability. You do something you're not suppose to, you'll have a fure under you're @$$.

In a theocracy, how can anyone argue with God's (or insert deity of choice)'s ruler?.

For kicks, please show me a fair and equal theocracy that compares with some of the democracies of today.

show me a fair democracy first.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
It is always possible for a democracy to turn into a form theocracy but not the other way round.

[tarek29]

show me a fair democracy first.

Didnt you hear about democracy that Amercians brought to Iraq !?

Peace :)

[Amadeus85]

Didnt you hear about democracy that Amercians brought to Iraq !?

Peace :)

Great majority of succesfull, independent and strong countries with freedom and tolerance are democratic. Great majority of poor, suffering and corrupted countries without freedom and tolerance are not democratic (authoritaric, totalitarian,theocratic ).

[Isambard]

show me a fair democracy first.

Canada.

[snakelegs]

Since it works on the concept that it is perfect,
It becomes the most imperfect. :hiding:

this is a valid point. the problem with any system of governance is that it is interpreted and executed by imperfect (real) human beings. i think a non-theocratic system would be more aware of this aspect and therefore more open to question.
when rulers are ruling in the name of god, it can easily be regarded as blasphemous to question the way they are governing, how they are applying the laws.

[believer]

A theocracy also keeps independent thinking controlled. :hmm:

Since it works on the concept that it is perfect,
It becomes the most imperfect. :hiding:

It works on the concept that it is perfect working on the imperfect.

However, Man is created weak... therefore, it is already incorrect to say that Man is imperfect... but perhaps Man being weak and limited is perfect in itself per se.

Therefore, doesn't it make more sense if something Divine and Perfect would be adopted by the imperfect? since it is also Imperfect then it wouldn't really hurt the imperfect doesn't it?

[Keltoi]

It works on the concept that it is perfect working on the imperfect.

However, Man is created weak... therefore, it is already incorrect to say that Man is imperfect... but perhaps Man being weak and limited is perfect in itself per se.

Therefore, doesn't it make more sense if something Divine and Perfect would be adopted by the imperfect? since it is also Imperfect then it wouldn't really hurt the imperfect doesn't it?

Huh?

[Isambard]

It works on the concept that it is perfect working on the imperfect.

However, Man is created weak... therefore, it is already incorrect to say that Man is imperfect... but perhaps Man being weak and limited is perfect in itself per se.

Therefore, doesn't it make more sense if something Divine and Perfect would be adopted by the imperfect? since it is also Imperfect then it wouldn't really hurt the imperfect doesn't it?

Dude.....I think my brain is bleeding...:offended:

Mind saying that agin?:hiding:

[wilberhum]

It works on the concept that it is perfect working on the imperfect.

However, Man is created weak... therefore, it is already incorrect to say that Man is imperfect... but perhaps Man being weak and limited is perfect in itself per se.

Therefore, doesn't it make more sense if something Divine and Perfect would be adopted by the imperfect? since it is also Imperfect then it wouldn't really hurt the imperfect doesn't it?

That sure seems like a long winded way to say "A theocracy isn't perfect". :rolleyes:

[islamirama]

Canada.

can't disagree with that, probably the only fair democracy left in the world :)

[Isambard]

can't disagree with that, probably the only fair democracy left in the world :)

What about the Scandinavian democracies?

Or some of the Asianic ones?

[islamirama]

What about the Scandinavian democracies?

Or some of the Asianic ones?

Right now Muslims are the scapegoat for everything in the world. Everyone wants to take stab at them. Canada was polled to be the best and most hospitable country to the Muslims (US being one of the worsts). Democracy is nothing but a joke until every single race or religion can live in it freely and with equal protection and opportunities, not just lip service or democracy on paper like most countries are.

[Isambard]

Right now Muslims are the scapegoat for everything in the world. Everyone wants to take stab at them. Canada was polled to be the best and most hospitable country to the Muslims (US being one of the worsts). Democracy is nothing but a joke until every single race or religion can live in it freely and with equal protection and opportunities, not just lip service or democracy on paper like most countries are.

Just because some folks dont like muslims, its still a democracy until their are laws actively preventing Islam.

[wilberhum]

Right now Muslims are the scapegoat for everything in the world. Everyone wants to take stab at them. Canada was polled to be the best and most hospitable country to the Muslims (US being one of the worsts). Democracy is nothing but a joke until every single race or religion can live in it freely and with equal protection and opportunities, not just lip service or democracy on paper like most countries are.

Where is there a government that you don't think is a joke? :hiding:

I would guess that you concider all governments a joke.

[Md Mashud]

Where is there a government that you don't think is a joke? :hiding:

I would guess that you concider all governments a joke.

Alot of humans, believe alot of governments (if not all) are a joke - without religious standing for this belief.

[Isambard]

Alot of humans, believe alot of governments (if not all) are a joke - without religious standing for this belief.

That would be libertarians and ararchists. I wouldnt put alot of stock into what they say seeing how they rely on the myth of the economic man.

That said, think carefully, how many ppl want to live under another religion's theocracy? How many perfer to live in a state where even if they are a minority, their negative rights are protected along with everyone elses?

[Malaikah]

when rulers are ruling in the name of god, it can easily be regarded as blasphemous to question the way they are governing, how they are applying the laws.

That is not even true in terms of Islamic law, as far as I know. The laws be believe are perfect yes, but in no way do we consider the people executing them to be somehow representing God and therefore infallible.

Islamic law works on consultation, that is the basic of it. The whole point is that there is discussion and debate before decisions are made.

[Md Mashud]

That would be libertarians and ararchists. I wouldnt put alot of stock into what they say seeing how they rely on the myth of the economic man.

That said, think carefully, how many ppl want to live under another religion's theocracy? How many perfer to live in a state where even if they are a minority, their negative rights are protected along with everyone elses?

How many people understand religious theocracy? Todays democracy is derived from ancient religious theocracy anyway, but they only picked out stuff they like now:).

[Isambard]

How many people understand religious theocracy? Todays democracy is derived from ancient religious theocracy anyway, but they only picked out stuff they like now:).

People understand theocracies just fine. Its exactly we DONT want them. I would have less rights under any theocracy just as you would under a non-Islamic one.

And Im curious which religion you believe liberal democracy originated from.

You also didnt answer my question, how happy would you be to live under a non-Islamic theocracy as opposed to a secular democracy?

[Md Mashud]

People understand theocracies just fine. Its exactly we DONT want them. I would have less rights under any theocracy just as you would under a non-Islamic one.

And Im curious which religion you believe liberal democracy originated from.

You also didnt answer my question, how happy would you be to live under a non-Islamic theocracy as opposed to a secular democracy?

Are those rights, those extra rights you have - good for society - which say Islamic sharia may remove? Don't forget, democracy removes alot of rights from you - for the better of society. Theocracy just has more restrictions - which could only be seen as positive. But, people do usually like whats more comfortable/better for them as individuals, rather than a community - hence why we have the current system.

[Isambard]

Are those rights, those extra rights you have - good for society - which say Islamic sharia may remove? Don't forget, democracy removes alot of rights from you - for the better of society. Theocracy just has more restrictions - which could only be seen as positive. But, people do usually like whats more comfortable/better for them as individuals, rather than a community - hence why we have the current system.

You are confusing negative rights and positive rights. In a democracy I have much more negative rights than I would ever have under a theocracy and being a non-muslim, I also have more positive rights under a liberal democracy.

As a community, liberal democracy is better than sharia simply because sharia favors muslims and the majority are not muslims. (This also ignores sect related sharia)

[tarek29]

You are confusing negative rights and positive rights. In a democracy I have much more negative rights than I would ever have under a theocracy and being a non-Muslim, I also have more positive rights under a liberal democracy.

As a community, liberal democracy is better than sharia simply because sharia favors Muslims and the majority are not Muslims. (This also ignores sect related sharia)

Liberal Democracy PROVED its failure when compared to Islamic Sharia beside that if we make general comparison:

1- Sharia: Is made for All Man Kind and not Muslims only!

Liberal Democracy: Made for specific group and dont care about others even if this means waging wars or killing others for money and power and stealing fortunes!

2- Sharia: Solves all social problems from roots!

Liberal Democracy: failed to solve a lot of social problems, but actually it gave a good space for those problems to grow!


3-Sharia: Is made by GOD (I know this you dont believe) and it were given to us by ONE Illiterate man living in Desert!

Liberal Democracy: Is made by HUMANS a lot of them!


4-Sharia: CONTAIN EVIL inside and outside!

Liberal Democracy: cannot contain EVIL!

5- Sharia: gives freedom and protection for all man kind (women before men) with balance between personal freedom and general freedom of the community!

Liberal Democracy: only give FAKE Personal freedom!


Those are some General comparisons,

but we can also compare Islamic Laws comparing it to all other systems now and in History, and you will find that all MAJOR EVIL didnt come from MUSLIM communities but from non Muslim communities whether they are religious or not!

Actually if you TEST what I mentioned above you will end to one conclusion that Islam is the best way for all Man Kind!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

[Isambard]

Liberal Democracy PROVED its failure when compared to Islamic Sharia beside that if we make general comparison:

1- Sharia: Is made for All Man Kind and not Muslims only!

Liberal Democracy: Made for specific group and dont care about others even if this means waging wars or killing others for money and power and stealing fortunes!

No, Sharia does favor muslims. Under sharia, I cant question the Qur'an or Muhammed, or even vote to change aspects of the constitution. I also cant promote my faith and evangelize (assuming I had one). If I were gay, I would be stonned. I would not be able to have a quiet lunch outside with my female friends in casual wear etc.

Plz point out what aspect of liberal democracy favors one group over another.

2- Sharia: Solves all social problems from roots!

Liberal Democracy: failed to solve a lot of social problems, but actually it gave a good space for those problems to grow!

Except for economic problems such as business cycles, financial contagion, FDI leverage, Tragedy of the commons, disgruntled minorities etc.

At its best, a sharia state would be like a much less flexible Keynesian state. The Keynesian state ultimately failed because of stagflation. Sharia state would be less flexible and the global economics conditions are even more accelerated so there is no real to believe it happen again to a Sharia state only faster.

Please tell me which social problem a liberal democracy model hlped grow. If you mean women's rights, minority rights, ending slavery etc, you are correct. How dare these non-men and whites think they are ppl?:playing:

3-Sharia: Is made by GOD (I know this you dont believe) and it were given to us by ONE Illiterate man living in Desert!

Liberal Democracy: Is made by HUMANS a lot of them!

And a non-muslim would argue Sharia is made by a human (muhammed) or a small group of them. Better the combined minds of intellectuals as opposed to the a small group of minds of ancient theologians.

4-Sharia: CONTAIN EVIL inside and outside!

Liberal Democracy: cannot contain EVIL!


I assume you mean "moral evils" because I have shown that real nasty stuff is actually fanned under a wholly shariah state.

The moral assumption is entirely subjective and as I said, most states are non-muslim so this doesnt hold water either.

5- Sharia: gives freedom and protection for all man kind (women before men) with balance between personal freedom and general freedom of the community!

Liberal Democracy: only give FAKE Personal freedom!

What is "fake personal freedom"? If you mean right to vote, education, freedom from persecution, freedom to practise religion etc. Then thats entirely a liberal democracies doing.

Those are some General comparisons,

but we can also compare Islamic Laws comparing it to all other systems now and in History, and you will find that all MAJOR EVIL didnt come from MUSLIM communities but from non Muslim communities whether they are religious or not!

Actually if you TEST what I mentioned above you will end to one conclusion that Islam is the best way for all Man Kind!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

Except of course for reality where all attempts at Muslim states have failed, miserably. And I dont particularly want to risk what I have just "God says its best".

[Amadeus85]

Liberal Democracy PROVED its failure when compared to Islamic Sharia beside that if we make general comparison:

And now compare any democratic country (for example England or Belgium) with a country ruled by sharia law (Saudi Arabia,Afghanistan under taleban,Sudan) and see which ones are more succesfull, more prospering, richer and tolerant.
You should also ask yourself why thousands of muslims every year leave muslim countries to live in western democracies ?

[tarek29]

Except of course for reality where all attempts at Muslim states have failed, miserably. And I dont particularly want to risk what I have just "God says its best".

No, Sharia does favor muslims. Under sharia, I cant question the Qur'an or Muhammed, or even vote to change aspects of the constitution. I also cant promote my faith and evangelize (assuming I had one). If I were gay, I would be stonned. I would not be able to have a quiet lunch outside with my female friends in casual wear etc
Plz point out what aspect of liberal democracy favors one group over another.

1- During soviet union try to say you are communist and this is the best way to live.

2-Present times try to say for example you don’t believe in Holo cost that it happened, and see what will happen to you, like Europeans who said such things!

3-You Missed the whole point and the main point that I wanted to tell you and that when I said ISLAM For ALL MAN KIND it means for all Man Kind and Not for West countries only, or you didn’t notice that western countries FORCE Democarcy to the whole world.

[B]2- Sharia: Solves all social problems from roots!

Liberal Democracy: failed to solve a lot of social problems, but actually it gave a good space for those problems to grow!

Except for economic problems such as business cycles, financial contagion, FDI leverage, Tragedy of the commons, disgruntled minorities etc.

At its best, a sharia state would be like a much less flexible Keynesian state. The Keynesian state ultimately failed because of stagflation. Sharia state would be less flexible and the global economics conditions are even more accelerated so there is no real to believe it happen again to a Sharia state only faster.


Please tell me which social problem a liberal democracy model hlped grow. If you mean women's rights, minority rights, ending slavery etc, you are correct. How dare these non-men and whites think they are ppl?

When we will have Islamic Caliphate Again there will be different results in all aspects of life like BEFORE, see you are talking about Muslims now forgetting the History that gives good example in all aspects of life that Islam gave!

Socially Islam gives the best solution and this we can find now because even our governments are not governing and following Islam (which is changing by time) and they under the pressure and force of your governments, beside that there is traitors and there is more then two hundred years of Invasions of your democratic countries, and till today our fortunes are stolen.

And all this because Authmanic Rulers at the end forgot Islam!

So we cannot Judge Islam in the section oif economics because you cannot find Muslim countries who follow Islamic system in this aspect!

Other points will be answered in next posts!

[tarek29]

3-Sharia: Is made by GOD (I know this you dont believe) and it were given to us by ONE Illiterate man living in Desert!

Liberal Democracy: Is made by HUMANS a lot of them!

And a non-muslim would argue Sharia is made by a human (muhammed) or a small group of them. Better the combined minds of intellectuals as opposed to the a small group of minds of ancient theologians.

First of all do you know to put LAWS in all aspects of life and to make those Laws fit all man kind and for all times what this needs from effort and experts!?

Now days if you change one Law in inheritance you bring experts and they search and research a lot, so that at the end they decide what to do!

And the claim of Prophet Mohamed having group with him is the most funny, do you know how many Muslims from them women, old people, children immigrated to Madina after 13 years Islam came!?

About 70 persons!

So those 70 from whom there were children and old people etc…. they made all this !?

By the way Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) would need not only specialists in all aspects of life, but he will need also translators so that he can read the Greek scriptures and books!

And tell me why there is things in Quran that ancient theologians did talk about!?

And he must be very clever that as he choose only the right things from ancient theologies that proved by science and experts in all fields!

See it is impossible that a man who were known as the Honest before Islam and were known to be Illiterate which means write and read (not scientist and expert in all fields) to write something like that, beside that you say group with him, they were living in Tribes in desert and if he had group of experts in all aspects of life and scientist in different fields plus translators this would be known easlly and exposed and ruin all what he said!

And after all this he puts all this information in a way that no one can write even ONE VERSE like in Quran, and not only that He challenge anyone to find one Mistake or contradiction there, which is till today with ALLAH’s WILL PROVEN FACTS!

Next Post I will answer other points ensha2 Allah (swt)

[tarek29]

4-Sharia: CONTAIN EVIL inside and outside!

Liberal Democracy: cannot contain EVIL!

I assume you mean "moral evils" because I have shown that real nasty stuff is actually fanned under a wholly shariah state.

The moral assumption is entirely subjective and as I said, most states are non-muslim so this doesnt hold water either.

Actually when I say Evil it means Evil in everything, for examples Islam doesn’t allow MAJOR evil to happen we find all Major Evil in the world comes from non Muslim communities for example:

1-NASIZM.

2- COMMUNISM

3- MILLIONS of VICTIMS KILLED by the name of Christ
http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

4- First and last till today Atomic weapons used against Humans.

5- SLAVARY

6- RACISM

7- ISRAEL

8- World Invasion and making it colonies by British and French etc.. empires!

9- STEALING poor countries of AFRICA and waging wars between those poor people which led to millions killed TILL TODAY!

etc...

And of course Present times who are waging wars and produce weapons etc....

The above is list of MILLIONS and MILLIONS of victims because of Evil that came from non Muslim communities, Islam never allow such big Evil to come out of it, actually Islam CONTAIN EVIL!

Next points in other posts will be answered by Allah (swt) will!

Peace

[tarek29]

5- Sharia: gives freedom and protection for all man kind (women before men) with balance between personal freedom and general freedom of the community!

Liberal Democracy: only give FAKE Personal freedom!

What is "fake personal freedom"? If you mean right to vote, education, freedom from persecution, freedom to practise religion etc. Then thats entirely a liberal democracies doing.

For example you you say women in your countries free while your system FAILED to protect women and give her freedom except freedom of Cloths:

FBI report that you can read link below says about 100 000 women RAPED and ABUSED per year in AMERICA alone please enter this link and be sure of what I say:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/...blerape04.html

Is this is Freedom!?

When I think about it and watch someone who talks about women in west talks about freedom of women, I am amazed from people who say such thing!

This system of Freedom made Women very cheap, this system of freedom allows crimes to grow, China is about 1500 Million, America (freedom) are 300 Million, people in Prison in America more then in China if not two times as far as I remember this statistics!

Are freedom is tyo allow crimes to expand!?

etc....

If you think deeply in things, you will find that freedom that you all defend are not freedom at all!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

[tarek29]

And now compare any democratic country (for example England or Belgium) with a country ruled by sharia law (Saudi Arabia,Afghanistan under taleban,Sudan) and see which ones are more succesfull, more prospering, richer and tolerant.
You should also ask yourself why thousands of Muslims every year leave Muslim countries to live in western democracies ?

See all what you can talk about is Material things, see Material things when it comes from Invading others and killing humans this is called BLOODY MONEY, this is EVIL and like Jesus may peace be upon him said in the Bible, wolf in cloths of sheep!

See you are defending Evil, and it is Ironically and amazingly to see Christians defend a system that have nothing to do with Christianity in any way!

And you cannot compare what you called Muslim countries when they just came from more then 200 years of Invasions and stealing their fortunes till today and then say give us example, beside there is no Islamic countries now days, the most close is Saudi Arabia little close!

But on the level on Muslims there is revolution because they begin to return to Islam, and as Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) said Islam Begin strange and will return strange!

See when you talk about Islam you talk about Islam and not Muslims, because if I talk about Christianity I don’t talk about Christians, and although I do that sometimes it is only to remind Christians and show them their mistake by Judging Islam with this or that incident happened by Muslims!

And In general Islam make people better and all Major Evil in the world came from non Muslim community!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace!

[ummAbdillah]

Islam is here

Islam is peace, Islam is ease,
Islam's not danger or disease.
Islam is love and prosperity.
Islam's not hatred or adversity.

Islam is salvation through repentence.
Islam has love for all in abundance.
Islam means no harm or affliction.
Islam implores you with affection.

Islam is neither maze nor craze.
Islam is giving Allah all praise.
Islam is acing through the race.
Islam will be on everyone's face.

Islam is worshipping only the Creator.
Islam's not mere numbers on a calculator.
Islam gives you power when you surrender.
Islam's not for a terrorist or a pretender.

Islam is patience and perseverance.
Islam eases your vengeance through tolerance.
Islam is life for all eternity.
Islam gives you respect, moreover dignity.

Islam is winning hearts through honesty
Islam is giving openly in charity
Islam makes you wholesome and trustworthy
Islam is in wealth as well as in poverty.

Islam is your shield against all evil.
Islam is for your soul's retrieval.
Islam not fundamentalism or fanaticism.
Islam's not nationalism or racism. Wake up, people, Islam is here.
Islam is here, so have no fear.

:sl: Nice poem and Ramadhan mubarak all. :w:

[Md Mashud]

You are confusing negative rights and positive rights. In a democracy I have much more negative rights than I would ever have under a theocracy and being a non-muslim, I also have more positive rights under a liberal democracy.

As a community, liberal democracy is better than sharia simply because sharia favors muslims and the majority are not muslims. (This also ignores sect related sharia)

Islamic sharia benefits non-muslims too - it is not to benefit muslims - the message was made to benefit mankind. It is just not clearly understood - especially when you live in a democracy for such a long time (I myself live in England, so having observed I can see why people have very distraught views of Islam and sharia in general.).

[Isambard]

1- During soviet union try to say you are communist and this is the best way to live.

2-Present times try to say for example you don’t believe in Holo cost that it happened, and see what will happen to you, like Europeans who said such things!

Except we now have proof as well as strong evidence that it is superior.

3-You Missed the whole point and the main point that I wanted to tell you and that when I said ISLAM For ALL MAN KIND it means for all Man Kind and Not for West countries only, or you didn’t notice that western countries FORCE Democarcy to the whole world.

If by force to the whole world, you mean US to Iraq, thats a strawman arguement. The US itself (ironically) isnt a true democracy but a representative republic. This still has nothing to do with a Liberal Democracy model and as I have shown (and you ahvent refuted) Sharia favors Muslims

When we will have Islamic Caliphate Again there will be different results in all aspects of life like BEFORE, see you are talking about Muslims now forgetting the History that gives good example in all aspects of life that Islam gave!

Yes, they will be worse off than in a liberal democracy.

Socially Islam gives the best solution and this we can find now because even our governments are not governing and following Islam (which is changing by time) and they under the pressure and force of your governments, beside that there is traitors and there is more then two hundred years of Invasions of your democratic countries, and till today our fortunes are stolen.

Following Islamic laws LEADS to structual problems. Precisely because it was meant for a very different time period and no longer holds any sort of bearing today. If you disagree, using Sharia, fix the problems I named. Aside from the US (which as I pointed out isnt a true democracy to begin with) which countries have invaded and plundered? Are they more than the Ottoman Empire plundered? Or more horrible than the islamic countries of today who (for the msot part) have a terrible record when it comes to human rights?

And all this because Authmanic Rulers at the end forgot Islam!

So we cannot Judge Islam in the section oif economics because you cannot find Muslim countries who follow Islamic system in this aspect!

Other points will be answered in next posts!

Of course they dont. An Islamic economy is absolutely terrible. It would fail within the first decade. (I am being generous)

[Isambard]

First of all do you know to put LAWS in all aspects of life and to make those Laws fit all man kind and for all times what this needs from effort and experts!?

Now days if you change one Law in inheritance you bring experts and they search and research a lot, so that at the end they decide what to do!

And the claim of Prophet Mohamed having group with him is the most funny, do you know how many Muslims from them women, old people, children immigrated to Madina after 13 years Islam came!?

About 70 persons!

So those 70 from whom there were children and old people etc…. they made all this !?

By the way Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) would need not only specialists in all aspects of life, but he will need also translators so that he can read the Greek scriptures and books!

And tell me why there is things in Quran that ancient theologians did talk about!?

And he must be very clever that as he choose only the right things from ancient theologies that proved by science and experts in all fields!

See it is impossible that a man who were known as the Honest before Islam and were known to be Illiterate which means write and read (not scientist and expert in all fields) to write something like that, beside that you say group with him, they were living in Tribes in desert and if he had group of experts in all aspects of life and scientist in different fields plus translators this would be known easlly and exposed and ruin all what he said!

Other religions have their holy texts as well. Guess what, they also have "incredibly advanced concepts and grasps of science!" *gasp!* Muhammed is just the 'Philosopher King' that Plto describes. Hell, the state he formed is incredibily similar to Kallipolis.

And after all this he puts all this information in a way that no one can write even ONE VERSE like in Quran, and not only that He challenge anyone to find one Mistake or contradiction there, which is till today with ALLAH’s WILL PROVEN FACTS!

Next Post I will answer other points ensha2 Allah (swt)

Of course not, aside from the Qur'an, how many "great works" are written in Arabic? Or even old Arabic?

How come the Qur'an is vastly inferior when translated?

Exactly

[Isambard]

For example you you say women in your countries free while your system FAILED to protect women and give her freedom except freedom of Cloths:

FBI report that you can read link below says about 100 000 women RAPED and ABUSED per year in AMERICA alone please enter this link and be sure of what I say:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/...blerape04.html

Is this is Freedom!?

Now compare that to the crimes that go unreported in the Middle_east. Whats that you say? Despite the enourmous number of unreported crmes, the Middle-east still has a high crime rate?!

Nice Strawman

When I think about it and watch someone who talks about women in west talks about freedom of women, I am amazed from people who say such thing!

You are right. Women are naturally weak both physically and mentally. Its why men HAVE to protect them right? O wait, you claimed Isam and Shariah are promoting equality of the sexes.

Seperate but equal eh? Well it was totally fair when While used that philosophy on blacks so it must be totally fair to use agaisnt women

This system of Freedom made Women very cheap, this system of freedom allows crimes to grow, China is about 1500 Million, America (freedom) are 300 Million, people in Prison in America more then in China if not two times as far as I remember this statistics!

I doubt your stats...thou even if tru, count the number of recoreded and non-recorded executions in China vs the US.

Are freedom is tyo allow crimes to expand!?

etc....

If you think deeply in things, you will find that freedom that you all defend are not freedom at all!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

Actually it is, you are just scewing data for you're own benefit.

[Isambard]

See all what you can talk about is Material things, see Material things when it comes from Invading others and killing humans this is called BLOODY MONEY, this is EVIL and like Jesus may peace be upon him said in the Bible, wolf in cloths of sheep!

See you are defending Evil, and it is Ironically and amazingly to see Christians defend a system that have nothing to do with Christianity in any way!

And you cannot compare what you called Muslim countries when they just came from more then 200 years of Invasions and stealing their fortunes till today and then say give us example, beside there is no Islamic countries now days, the most close is Saudi Arabia little close!

You are right, Muslims were always a happy bunch and never hurt anyone. Moore invasion? Nah. The Spanish wanted to be conquered.

Sarcasim aside, what does this have at all have to do with liberal democratic framework

But on the level on Muslims there is revolution because they begin to return to Islam, and as Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) said Islam Begin strange and will return strange!

See when you talk about Islam you talk about Islam and not Muslims, because if I talk about Christianity I don’t talk about Christians, and although I do that sometimes it is only to remind Christians and show them their mistake by Judging Islam with this or that incident happened by Muslims!

And In general Islam make people better and all Major Evil in the world came from non Muslim community!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace!

Unless of course you look at prison populations and history. The majority of wars as well as majority of criminals are theists.

[Isambard]

One last pt and I promise to refrain from spamming ;)

How does wishing Shariah on others any different from the idea of the Aryian Master Race?

In both cases you assume you know better than another groups thus making the silent assumption that you are inherently better than you're neighbour.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=tarek29;836078]

See all what you can talk about is Material things, see Material things when it comes from Invading others and killing humans this is called BLOODY MONEY, this is EVIL and like Jesus may peace be upon him said in the Bible, wolf in cloths of sheep!

Ok so now look at India. Wasn't India occupied for hundred of years (by muslims and British)?And it is a democracy now and very succesfull.And China? Wasnt China occupied for so many years? But somehow they are going forward,the country is in progress. My own country (Poland) was in XVIII and XIX century for 123 years of occupation and in XX century for 50 years of occupation, but now we are really doing well. We dont blame anyone but work hard to achieve prosperity.So please, dont blame everything at invasions.

See you are defending Evil, and it is Ironically and amazingly to see Christians defend a system that have nothing to do with Christianity in any way!

What evil you mean? Democracy? Democracy is evil? And thats why thousands of muslims evry year run from muslim countries to democratic West?

And In general Islam make people better and all Major Evil in the world came from non Muslim community!

Untill you stop blaming everything on OTHERS, muslim countries will be in such poor condition always.Its time to stop crying.Its time to behave like adult people and take responsibility for your actions.

[Md Mashud]

[QUOTE=Aaron85;836196]

Ok so now look at India. Wasn't India occupied for hundred of years (by muslims and British)?And it is a democracy now and very succesfull.And China? Wasnt China occupied for so many years? But somehow they are going forward,the country is in progress. My own country (Poland) was in XVIII and XIX century for 123 years of occupation and in XX century for 50 years of occupation, but now we are really doing well. We dont blame anyone but work hard to achieve prosperity.So please, dont blame everything at invasions.



What evil you mean? Democracy? Democracy is evil? And thats why thousands of muslims evry year run from muslim countries to democratic West?





Untill you stop blaming everything on OTHERS, muslim countries will be in such poor condition always.Its time to stop crying.Its time to behave like adult people and take responsibility for your actions.

Theres 2 things I would agree on. One that, muslims should not blame others for the mess - but themselves. Secondly, that Muslims today are not perfect but rather flawed. Fact is today, their is no true Islamic Sharia, and how muslims overall run today is nothing as it should be.

[tarek29]

Of course they dont. An Islamic economy is absolutely terrible. It would fail within the first decade. (I am being generous)

1-During soviet union try to say you are communist and this is the best way to live.

2-Present times try to say for example you don’t believe in Holo cost that it happened, and see what will happen to you, like Europeans who said such things!

Except we now have proof as well as strong evidence that it is superior.

Sorry I didn’t understand what you want to say, superior or not superior, if you have opinion about this matter why cannot you just say it in democratic supposed free countries!?

3-You Missed the whole point and the main point that I wanted to tell you and that when I said ISLAM For ALL MAN KIND it means for all Man Kind and Not for West countries only, or you didn’t notice that western countries FORCE Democarcy to the whole world.

If by force to the whole world, you mean US to Iraq, thats a strawman arguement. The US itself (ironically) isnt a true democracy but a representative republic. This still has nothing to do with a Liberal Democracy model and as I have shown (and you ahvent refuted) Sharia favors Muslims

America is not alone in those crimes nor in forcing other countires in the word either by threatening or wars to force them what they want, and they do that with Muslims or non Muslims,

and sorry what did I dint refute !?

And where is that Liberal Democracy Model!?

When we will have Islamic Caliphate Again there will be different results in all aspects of life like BEFORE, see you are talking about Muslims now forgetting the History that gives good example in all aspects of life that Islam

gave!

Yes, they will be worse off than in a liberal democracy.

This is your opinion, if you notice in my threads I give you facts from present time and history, anyway It will be good to see you example of Liberal Democracy!

Socially Islam gives the best solution and this we can find now because even our governments are not governing and following Islam (which is changing by time) and they under the pressure and force of your governments, beside that there is traitors and there is more then two hundred years of Invasions of your democratic countries, and till today our fortunes are stolen.

Following Islamic laws LEADS to structual problems. Precisely because it was meant for a very different time period and no longer holds any sort of bearing today. If you disagree, using Sharia, fix the problems I named. Aside from the US (which as I pointed out isnt a true democracy to begin with) which countries have invaded and plundered? Are they more than the Ottoman Empire plundered? Or more horrible than the islamic countries of today who (for the msot part) have a terrible record when it comes to human rights?

I have two friends they resigned from UN because the reports coming from Darfur are and go to Geneva are fabricated and not what they send!

present time there is no ISLAMIC country as I told you in other posts, so why you keep bringing examples that Islam have nothing to do with!?

Beside if you read carefuly you will see that I wrote SOCIALLY and this works in present time!

and this because Muslims themselves follow Sharia even in those countries that you keep mentioning as Muslims governments!

See there is revolution in Islam on the level of nations!

And by the way Islam Proved as you will read in other posts that it gives solution for all aspects of life for PRESENT time, and the results in Muslim communities NOW you can see!

On the other hand you couldnt (for example) protect your women from Rape like I wrote in another post as example of social failure in present time, and still you dont have solution for such problems while Islam already gave Practical PROVED solution more then 1400 year ago!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

[tarek29]

Of course not, aside from the Qur'an, how many "great works" are written in Arabic? Or even old Arabic?

How come the Qur'an is vastly inferior when translated?

Exactly

First of all there is no new Arabic and old Arabic!

Second you wrote:

Other religions have their holy texts as well. Guess what, they also have "incredibly advanced concepts and grasps of science!" *gasp!* Muhammed is just the 'Philosopher King' that Plto describes. Hell, the state he formed is incredibly similar to Kallipolis.

First of all it is article of faith for Muslims to believe in Gospel (teachings of Jesus(pbuh) and Torah of Moses (pbuh) and Quran actually dont differ with them, because they are from same GOD!

But Islam gives LAWS and way of life covering all aspects of life that you cannot find in any other religion!

And the interesting thing that I give you from Quran things like LAWS to follow in all our aspects of life then you tell me Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) is Philosopher!

By the way there is a lot of scientific errors in the bible proven not by theories but by Scientific Facts because it were played with Human hands!

Quran where send in a way that no one can Bring or invent ONE VERSE LIKE IT, and Pagan Arabs were very strong in poem by the way, and it is well recorded that a lot of Pagan Arabs reverted to Islam just by hearing the Quran!

till today they couldn’t produce one verse like it and this would be very easy for Pagan Arabs to do to expose Prophet Mohamed (pbuh) then fighting Muslims!

So about what other good Arab books you talk !?

Peace

[tarek29]

Originally Posted by tarek29
For example you you say women in your countries free while your system FAILED to protect women and give her freedom except freedom of Cloths:

FBI report that you can read link below says about 100 000 women RAPED and ABUSED per year in AMERICA alone please enter this link and be sure of what I say:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/...blerape04.html

Is this is Freedom!?

Now compare that to the crimes that go unreported in the Middle_east. Whats that you say? Despite the enourmous number of unreported crmes, the Middle-east still has a high crime rate?!

Nice Strawman

Un reported crimes against women is in all world, but we don’t have numbers of rape, do you know why?
because if you read carefully what I wrote to you I told you we don’t have such numbers of Drunk men and women and after that I told you we have Islamic system or way of life the prevents such thing, beginning of Honor, not leaving women in streets and bars(no bars) and discothèques, Muslim men fear ALLAH (swt), women don’t walk in streets like chicks, they live with parents or when they get married with their Husbands etc….
And the most important such crimes is punished by death penalty while you don’t have such punishment to those sick animals, and at same time you talk about how you care about women!
And the intresting in what you say: Un reported, see I gave you PROOF from the mouth of FBI, and what you give me!?
When you have PROOF to what you say please provide it, other wise what you cannot PROOF means nothing and you should agree with me on that!

When I think about it and watch someone who talks about women in west talks about freedom of women, I am amazed from people who say such thing!

You are right. Women are naturally weak both physically and mentally. Its why men HAVE to protect them right? O wait, you claimed Isam and Shariah are promoting equality of the sexes.

Seperate but equal eh? Well it was totally fair when While used that philosophy on blacks so it must be totally fair to use agaisnt women

The Quran and Islam is in front of you PROOF what you say, and I will be glade to explain to you what you will not understand!

This system of Freedom made Women very cheap, this system of freedom allows crimes to grow, China is about 1500 Million, America (freedom) are 300 Million, people in Prison in America more then in China if not two times as far as I remember this statistics!

I doubt your stats...thou even if tru, count the number of recoreded and non-recorded executions in China vs the US.

I were talking about Prisons!

[Isambard]

We seem to be going in circles.

Instead of going into more pgs of back and forth (and giving the mods the hard task of digging thry all that writing :P)

How bout you just answer me this.

Under a Calliphite state, how would it solve these three problems.
1. Business cycles
2.Tradgey of the Commons scernerios
3. Attracting FDI, and maintaing them within acceptable lvs so the country doesnt get taken over via outside financial forces.

[Md Mashud]

We seem to be going in circles.

Instead of going into more pgs of back and forth (and giving the mods the hard task of digging thry all that writing :P)

How bout you just answer me this.

Under a Calliphite state, how would it solve these three problems.
1. Business cycles
2.Tradgey of the Commons scernerios
3. Attracting FDI, and maintaing them within acceptable lvs so the country doesnt get taken over via outside financial forces.

This is more of a complex thing to understand than it seems at first. As you know, the current system, the banking system, it works via security, not by tangible wealth (money really does come from nothing!). It is quite a flawed system if you look into the economics of the system vs the welfare of the World. The whole financial system in Islam is very very against this banking system - and is on the working on tangible currencies, and on the basis that currency cannot be traded for the same currency.

[tarek29]

[QUOTE=Aaron85;836196][QUOTE=tarek29;836078]

Ok so now look at India. Wasn't India occupied for hundred of years (by muslims and British)?And it is a democracy now and very succesfull.And China? Wasnt China occupied for so many years? But somehow they are going forward,the country is in progress. My own country (Poland) was in XVIII and XIX century for 123 years of occupation and in XX century for 50 years of occupation, but now we are really doing well. We dont blame anyone but work hard to achieve prosperity.So please, dont blame everything at invasions.

And still China and India have a lot of poor people, and they have a lot of social problems and especialy women in India, and when Islam where in India there were civilization!

And Poland like all west have a lot of social problems that only Islam have solution to it!

When I said Invasion this were one of reasons that I gave, if you read my other posts you will find that I wrote also that Muslims were away from ISLAM and now there is revolution on the level of Islamic nations and this will change!

And dont forget that Islam is faught everywhere, also there is countries in Asia were there is Muslims and they are going very well Indonesia for example were biggest Islamic popultaion!

Also India and China they have different situation then most Muslim countries and that west from a long time separated Muslim countries, if you return little to History you will find that there were nothing called Saudi Arabia, or country by name of Egypt, sudan etc....

didnt you hear about English saying that says: Devide and conquer!?

And this still happening today, beside Israel that were planted in middle east!

And again I remind you that we dont have Islamic rulers till today!

What evil you mean? Democracy? Democracy is evil? And thats why thousands of muslims evry year run from muslim countries to democratic West?

Thousand of Muslims in poor countries same like thousands from African countires try to go to Europe to find work, while your western governments stealing their countries fortunes OIL, GAS, Diamonds, Gold etc...

Untill you stop blaming everything on OTHERS, muslim countries will be in such poor condition always.Its time to stop crying.Its time to behave like adult people and take responsibility for your actions.

Sorry where did I blame anyone for anything!?

I am saying Facts why Muslims are weak, and why Democracy doesnt solve human problems and why major Evil in the world came and still come from non Muslim communities!

Peace

[tarek29]

We seem to be going in circles.

Instead of going into more pgs of back and forth (and giving the mods the hard task of digging thry all that writing :P)

How bout you just answer me this.

Under a Calliphite state, how would it solve these three problems.
1. Business cycles
2.Tradgey of the Commons scernerios
3. Attracting FDI, and maintaing them within acceptable lvs so the country doesnt get taken over via outside financial forces.

Intresting question but with all my Education I cannot answer you, as you need economist who Knows Islamic Sharia!

While we have the guide lines made by Iliterate man in the desert whom they called the honest more then 1400 ago!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

[snakelegs]

That is not even true in terms of Islamic law, as far as I know. The laws be believe are perfect yes, but in no way do we consider the people executing them to be somehow representing God and therefore infallible.

Islamic law works on consultation, that is the basic of it. The whole point is that there is discussion and debate before decisions are made.

i realize that islam does not consider any one to be infallible. i think it would work in a society that was all muslim and a society in which the people were educated in islam as well as in secular knowlege.
but in a society where many are illiterate, it is all too easy in a theocracy, for those who govern to convince the people that they are governing according to god's will and the people are not to ask any questions because to do so, would question god. in theory, in a non-theocratic system, everything is open to question and challenge.
also, an important point was made earlier by muezzin, (if i remember right).
a democracy could evolve into a theocracy, but a theocracy could never evolve in to a democracy - or in to any other form of government, for that matter.
of course, i am stronly biased against any form of theocracy. :statisfie

[Malaikah]

Snakelegs, you are assuming that a the rulers of the theocracy must be inherently evil, which I feel is a terrible assumption to make.

Isambard, you speak with the confidence of a man who has studied the law for many years, I ask you what knowledge do you have of Islamic Law to begin with?

Many people fail to recognise how complex Islam and it's law is, which is why they make such ignorant statements about it.

[snakelegs]

malaikah,
no i do not assume that at all. i just assume that as human beings, they are as you said, not infallible.

[Malaikah]

That is the impression I am getting though, and that I always seem to get from people who use this argument.

You can have corrupt rulers in under theocracy and democracy.

but in a society where many are illiterate, it is all too easy in a theocracy, for those who govern to convince the people that they are governing according to god's will and the people are not to ask any questions because to do so, would question god. in theory, in a non-theocratic system, everything is open to question and challenge.

If they are as ignorant as you make it sound, then even non-theocracies can be as deceptive as the example you gave, with out the play on God.

[snakelegs]

That is the impression I am getting though, and that I always seem to get from people who use this argument.

You can have corrupt rulers in under theocracy and democracy.

If they are as ignorant as you make it sounds, then even non-theocracies can be as deceptive the example you gave, with out the play on God.

i'm sorry that you are getting that impression. i do not see rulers in a theocratic system being more inherently evil, deceptive or corrupt than rulers in a non-theocratic society. (i live in Bushland, afterall)
with the rest of what you have written above, i agree completely. my only point was that i think in a non-theocratic system it is more acceptable to question and challenge the rulers. i brought this up merely as an inherent danger.
for a democracy (and i don't know of any) to work, the citizens need to be educated and informed too, but since it is the rule of men it is open to criticism and rebellion in a way that i do not think a theocracy could be.
i don't think we are that far apart.

[Isambard]

Snakelegs, you are assuming that a the rulers of the theocracy must be inherently evil, which I feel is a terrible assumption to make.

Isambard, you speak with the confidence of a man who has studied the law for many years, I ask you what knowledge do you have of Islamic Law to begin with?

Many people fail to recognise how complex Islam and it's law is, which is why they make such ignorant statements about it.

Ive studied Politics and economy for some yrs now and I have yet to see a Shariah based model of state that has a hope of surviving or morphing into something else.

[Malaikah]

Have you studied it from an Islamic perspective though?

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=tarek29;836220]

And still China and India have a lot of poor people, and they have a lot of social problems and especialy women in India, and when Islam where in India there were civilization!

Find me a country in world where are no poor people then.In facr , one of the reason why so many muslims leave muslim countries and go to West is that here they have chance to have a good life and the social problems are not so big (vide Sweden,England). Well well, India has one of the oldest civilization in the world(along with egyptian and babilonian). Indian civilization existed two thousands years before Muhammad was born.

And Poland like all west have a lot of social problems that only Islam have solution to it!

First you should look at the social problems that muslim countries have before trying to solve problems of Europe .:)

When I said Invasion this were one of reasons that I gave, if you read my other posts you will find that I wrote also that Muslims were away from ISLAM and now there is revolution on the level of Islamic nations and this will change!

Revolution? I think that in many muslim countries, people (especially young and women) are getting more and more modern, they study, work, not only born children like their mothers and grandmothers.This is revolution.

And dont forget that Islam is faught everywhere, also there is countries in Asia were there is Muslims and they are going very well Indonesia for example were biggest Islamic popultaion!

I know that there are prosperous muslim countries. For example Malaysia, or Turkey. I agree with that.

A

lso India and China they have different situation then most Muslim countries and that west from a long time separated Muslim countries, if you return little to History you will find that there were nothing called Saudi Arabia, or country by name of Egypt, sudan etc....

I think personally that the unity of muslim world is a myth.Look at the differences bewteen Persians and Arabs in Middle East, not to mention between Afghans and for example Malay muslims (in culture,tradition and also viewwing religion)

Thousand of Muslims in poor countries same like thousands from African countires try to go to Europe to find work, while your western governments stealing their countries fortunes OIL, GAS, Diamonds, Gold etc...

It sounds like typical anti capitalist and anti globalist talking. The thing is that without western technology muslims wouldnt be able to dig the oil or gas from the earth so they must invite those companies in.But of course im, not specialist in gas and oil industry :statisfie

Sorry where did I blame anyone for anything!?

Here -

why major Evil in the world came and still come from non Muslim communities!

[tarek29]

Find me a country in world where are no poor people then.In facr , one of the reason why so many muslims leave muslim countries and go to West is that here they have chance to have a good life and the social problems are not so big (vide Sweden,England). Well well, India has one of the oldest civilization in the world(along with egyptian and babilonian). Indian civilization existed two thousands years before Muhammad was born.

I think there is dofference between social Problems and economic problems, those Muslims you talk about go to Europe becuase it is close to them and only to find work to live and this have nothing to do with social problems, actualy they meet Racists like SKIN head killing them in streets in so CIVILZED Europe!

And while those Poor Muslims go to Europe to work in it, this same Europe with America steal fortunes of their countries for more then TWO hundred years and till today!

And the mnost important those Muslims dont come from countries that follow Islam!

India also Had great civilization during Islam so this doesnt say anything!

First you should look at the social problems that muslim countries have before trying to solve problems of Europe .:)

When there is Muslim country inform me please! :)

and the intresting that those so called Muslim countries have less problems in Crimes, Rape, women abuse, children abuse and rape, Incest, suicide, drunking people, etc......

And this becuase Nations of those countiries and following Islam in those countires that you called them Muslim countries (by mistake and not knowing)!

Revolution? I think that in many muslim countries, people (especially young and women) are getting more and more modern, they study, work, not only born children like their mothers and grandmothers.This is revolution.

Exsactly they study and work and Understand more ISLAM and become more strong in Faith and born children too, come and see mosques now In Egypt for example five times a day!

See there is new generations of Muslims well Educated and equiped with knowledge and faith, and they are not those who you see on Anti Islamic Channels!

I know that there are prosperous muslim countries. For example Malaysia, or Turkey. I agree with that.

But you dont know that our fortunes are stollen, and were ever they find a way to DIVIDE any Arabic country they do, they even try to do it with Saudia Arabia and Egypt, but they succeded in Sudan (Darfur,South and North, west), and Iraq, Lebanon!

Divide and conquer, remember !?

I think personally that the unity of muslim world is a myth.Look at the differences bewteen Persians and Arabs in Middle East, not to mention between Afghans and for example Malay muslims (in culture,tradition and also viewwing religion)

Yesterday the teach us this is Egyptian this is from Gulf this is from Maroc and they tried to make hate between us, now we Know that we ALL are MUSLIMS and ISLAM is not only our religion but country, and life in one word everything!

Remember when I said revolution on the level of the Muslim Nation!? and we pray for our governments to understand that only by being together they will succeed and we also!

It sounds like typical anti capitalist and anti globalist talking. The thing is that without western technology muslims wouldnt be able to dig the oil or gas from the earth so they must invite those companies in.But of course im, not specialist in gas and oil industry :statisfie

NOOOOO :) please dont say about me names that I have nothing to do with, I am Muslim, and ISLAM make BALANCE in EVERYTHING, in ISLAM everybody is happy the Rich and the Poor!

If you are Arab scientist and invented anything important see how they will treat you, and your life will be in danger from your free goverments, I know personaly example to what I say!

But for everything there is time!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

[Isambard]

Have you studied it from an Islamic perspective though?

Im not sure what you mean by "Islamic perspective" as economics doesnt take religion into account, merely structural elements and feasability, which an Islamic state as imagined would lack.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=tarek29;836464]

I think there is dofference between social Problems and economic problems, those Muslims you talk about go to Europe becuase it is close to them and only to find work to live and this have nothing to do with social problems, actualy they meet Racists like SKIN head killing them in streets in so CIVILZED Europe!

I think that muslims come to Europe or USA or Australia because they can have simply better chances to have prosperous life.Education, health care,salary,safety,in Western Europe all those things are on much higher level than in muslim countries (and also better than in my own country so chill out :p ).i think that all those things about european racism are much overreacted.In last years, since 9/11, i heard personally about one tragic event in Belgium, where a racist killed two women from Africa.He was mentally ill i think.Anyway, in Europe muslims live in seperated ghettos and they rather stick together and dont mix with non muslims(vide Germany,Sweden or Holland).

And while those Poor Muslims go to Europe to work in it, this same Europe with America steal fortunes of their countries for more then TWO hundred years and till today!

You are talking about oil?Arabs get zillions of dollars for their oil so no one steals it from them.

And the mnost important those Muslims dont come from countries that follow Islam!

This is interesting. So was there in world any country that followed islam?Ever? Any?

India also Had great civilization during Islam so this doesnt say anything!

India had great civilization before, during and after islam.

[QUOTE] When there is Muslim country inform me please! :)[/QUOTE/]

This is the big question.I just can say that i wish muslims , who want it, a true muslim states.

and the intresting that those so called Muslim countries have less problems in Crimes, Rape, women abuse, children abuse and rape, Incest, suicide, drunking people, etc......

Or maybe in muslim countries you dont have thousands of non goverment organizations and free media who look for such things and inform about them? Didnt you think about it? When my country was under communist rule, we also didnt hear about rapes,corruption,murders or sucides.Simply because no one informed us about it.

Exsactly they study and work and Understand more ISLAM and become more strong in Faith and born children too, come and see mosques now In Egypt for example five times a day!

And very good.I am supporter of tradition and religion in world.

See there is new generations of Muslims well Educated and equiped with knowledge and faith, and they are not those who you see on Anti Islamic Channels!

I hope that you are right.

But you dont know that our fortunes are stollen, and were ever they find a way to DIVIDE any Arabic country they do, they even try to do it with Saudia Arabia and Egypt, but they succeded in Sudan (Darfur,South and North, west), and Iraq, Lebanon!

About Sudan.The only reason why this country is going to be divided is criminal politicy of its goverment.And you know it well.
And the reso of your post, about what fortunes you are telling?

Yesterday the teach us this is Egyptian this is from Gulf this is from Maroc and they tried to make hate between us, now we Know that we ALL are MUSLIMS and ISLAM is not only our religion but country, and life in one word everything!

Ok ok but you showed us an ideal state of muslim Ummah.But life is ussually far from being ideal bro.

Remember when I said revolution on the level of the Muslim Nation!? and we pray for our governments to understand that only by being together they will succeed and we also!

Believe me or not, but i support muslims' efforts to establish true islamic states.If this is possible of course in nowadays world.

NOOOOO :) please dont say about me names that I have nothing to do with, I am Muslim, and ISLAM make BALANCE in EVERYTHING, in ISLAM everybody is happy the Rich and the Poor!

Didnt mean to offend you.

[Sky_flower]

Actually, democracy keeps ppl with dumb opinions from being killed by more powerful groups.

Perhaps its just me, but I like not being set ablaze because a dominant religious/political groups doesnt like me.

trust me its not just you. Democracy gives people a choice.

[Sky_flower]

[QUOTE=Aaron85;836570][QUOTE=tarek29;836464]

I think that muslims come to Europe or USA or Australia because they can have simply better chances to have prosperous life.Education, health care,salary,safety,in Western Europe all those things are on much higher level than in muslim countries (and also better than in my own country so chill out :p ).i think that all those things about european racism are much overreacted.In last years, since 9/11, i heard personally about one tragic event in Belgium, where a racist killed two women from Africa.He was mentally ill i think.Anyway, in Europe muslims live in seperated ghettos and they rather stick together and dont mix with non muslims(vide Germany,Sweden or Holland).



You are talking about oil?Arabs get zillions of dollars for their oil so no one steals it from them.



This is interesting. So was there in world any country that followed islam?Ever? Any?



India had great civilization before, during and after islam.
PLEASE READ SLOWLY TO UNDERSTAN!
Muslims just like everybody else in the world move for various personal reasons. One they want a better life, Two education, Three occupation, Four because they just dang feel like! who cares why people move can we just move on with this eh?

When there is Muslim country inform me please! :)[/QUOTE/]

Who would want to live in place where there just one religion? The beauty of world is that its different from skin color to religion. I feel like I can learn more from other people and their religion and culture. If I lived in country where everyone was a Jew god I'd kill myself lol.







And very good.I am supporter of tradition and religion in world.



I hope that you are right.



About Sudan.The only reason why this country is going to be divided is criminal politicy of its goverment.And you know it well.
And the reso of your post, about what fortunes you are telling?






Ok ok but you showed us an ideal state of muslim Ummah.But life is ussually far from being ideal bro.



Believe me or not, but i support muslims' efforts to establish true islamic states.If this is possible of course in nowadays world.






Didnt mean to offend you.

This just my 2cents on everything please understand it.

[I_notGenerous]

Hii....We know what Islam is ....what we do not know is the impact on Muslims the understanding and interpretation of The mind of each individual as Muslims..if ...the interpretation is right I am sure there is no terrorism...no corruptions...no sufferring in Muslims countries....:peace:

Islam is here

Islam is peace, Islam is ease,
Islam's not danger or disease.
Islam is love and prosperity.
Islam's not hatred or adversity.

Islam is salvation through repentence.
Islam has love for all in abundance.
Islam means no harm or affliction.
Islam implores you with affection.

Islam is neither maze nor craze.
Islam is giving Allah all praise.
Islam is acing through the race.
Islam will be on everyone's face.

Islam is worshipping only the Creator.
Islam's not mere numbers on a calculator.
Islam gives you power when you surrender.
Islam's not for a terrorist or a pretender.

Islam is patience and perseverance.
Islam eases your vengeance through tolerance.
Islam is life for all eternity.
Islam gives you respect, moreover dignity.

Islam is winning hearts through honesty
Islam is giving openly in charity
Islam makes you wholesome and trustworthy
Islam is in wealth as well as in poverty. (Please explain this....)

Islam is your shield against all evil.
Islam is for your soul's retrieval.
Islam not fundamentalism or fanaticism.
Islam's not nationalism or racism. Wake up, people, Islam is here.
Islam is here, so have no fear.

Happy children's day...:peace:

[Malaikah]

Im not sure what you mean by "Islamic perspective" as economics doesnt take religion into account, merely structural elements and feasability, which an Islamic state as imagined would lack.

Erm... then I take it you are unaware that Islam has a whole area of study about this kind of stuff? Laws and rules governing business transactions, money, taking loans, stuff like that?

The only thing I can really think of that can effect economy significantly is the strict prohibition of interest/usury. (Not that I have any knowledge about economics, from a secular or Islamic perspective).

Why do you think an Islamic state would lack that?

Islam is a lot more than just a 'religion', it is a complete way of life. It is also a lot more complex than what you seem to be assuming.

You might like to have a look at this, question and answers about commerce issues related to Islam:
http://islamtoday.com/show_sub_secti...5&sub_cat_id=0

[I_notGenerous]

[QUOTE=Malaikah;836733]Erm... then I take it you are unaware that Islam has a whole area of study about this kind of stuff? Laws and rules governing business transactions, money, taking loans, stuff like that?

Hii...that goes without saying la...but what has Islam got to do with the impact of poverty and wealth...if in a Muslim country where there are crisis or economic problems...that is the failure of the Muslims itself...nothing to do with the religion.:statisfie



Why do you think an Islamic state would lack that?

Islam is a lot more than just a 'religion', it is a complete way of life. It is also a lot more complex than what you seem to be assuming.

So, tell me la...what do you think? May I ask you again...why do you think an Islamic state would lack that?

[Isambard]

Erm... then I take it you are unaware that Islam has a whole area of study about this kind of stuff? Laws and rules governing business transactions, money, taking loans, stuff like that?

The only thing I can really think of that can effect economy significantly is the strict prohibition of interest/usury. (Not that I have any knowledge about economics, from a secular or Islamic perspective).

Why do you think an Islamic state would lack that?

Islam is a lot more than just a 'religion', it is a complete way of life. It is also a lot more complex than what you seem to be assuming.

You might like to have a look at this, question and answers about commerce issues related to Islam:
http://islamtoday.com/show_sub_secti...5&sub_cat_id=0

I have read over Islamic Law and political economics. Its stands at a stark contradiction of what Muslims which for a Caliphite state.

Without Interest, you would unable to kick-start, or slow-down an economy or smooth over the business cycles. This is deathly impt because unregulated business cycles have a habit of getting more erradic to the point where you get a total collapse (see Depression).

Seeing an Islamic economy would also encourage big gov't and spending, you would also start to see rising inflation, but again, without control on interest rates (or lack of them all together) it would just build up and get worse and worse.

There is also the issue of black markets, but that an enormous problem that requires other solutions.

Then there is the social problems, ie. non-muslims getting more rights outside of the state thus moving out. Youll start to get a major drain in terms of skilled labor etc.

Only way for an Islamic state to exist, is by small, very small in terms of power. It would most likely be poorer than Bolvia and weild te same sort of globo-political power. Most muslims imagine some sort of super-happy utopian state, simply put, thats impossible.

[Isambard]

[QUOTE=I_notGenerous;836889]

Erm... then I take it you are unaware that Islam has a whole area of study about this kind of stuff? Laws and rules governing business transactions, money, taking loans, stuff like that?

Hii...that goes without saying la...but what has Islam got to do with the impact of poverty and wealth...if in a Muslim country where there are crisis or economic problems...that is the failure of the Muslims itself...nothing to do with the religion.:statisfie



Why do you think an Islamic state would lack that?

Islam is a lot more than just a 'religion', it is a complete way of life. It is also a lot more complex than what you seem to be assuming.

So, tell me la...what do you think? May I ask you again...why do you think an Islamic state would lack that?

Islamic Law is agaisnt interest and non-muslims being on completely equal terms with Muslims in terms of laws. If it didnt lack these things, then it wouldnt an Islamic state according to scholars.

[Malaikah]

Only way for an Islamic state to exist, is by small, very small in terms of power. It would most likely be poorer than Bolvia and weild te same sort of globo-political power. Most muslims imagine some sort of super-happy utopian state, simply put, thats impossible.

Yeh, right!:playing: We will stick to more moral ways of making money without robbing it from people thank you very much.

I'm not economist so I'm not going to bother entering too deeply into this discussion.

(By the way, I recall reading somewhere that inflation is handled by the fact that the money has to real, not just paper money... umm I don't really know how to explain it, but it has something to do with the money loosing its connection with gold/silver).

[Isambard]

Yeh, right!:playing: We will stick to more moral ways of making money without robbing it from people thank you very much.

I'm not economist so I'm not going to bother entering too deeply into this discussion.

(By the way, I recall reading somewhere that inflation is handled by the fact that the money has to real, not just paper money... umm I don't really know how to explain it, but it has something to do with the money loosing its connection with gold/silver).

That was back when countries used gold and silver standards which was gotten rid of during the 70s I believe. Now 'Real Money' turns into 'Paper money' because of inflation devaluing the currecy. Basically what costed 2$ three yrs ago now costs 5$. A major contributer of inflation is gov't spending as it introduces more money into the economy and oversupply devalues it.

Without interest rates you have no way to control this effectively. So you be a 'moral state' and a shining example, you just wont last very long as inflation eats you alive.

[Amadeus85]

Why do you think an Islamic state would lack that?

Islam is a lot more than just a 'religion', it is a complete way of life. It is also a lot more complex than what you seem to be assuming.

So, tell me la...what do you think? May I ask you again...why do you think an Islamic state would lack that?

I think that true islamic state is impossible with non muslim minority.In true islamic state all citizens should be muslims i think (maybe im wrong however). I also have a quesstion. Whats the difference between nowadays Saudi Arabia or Afhanistan under taliban and a true islamic state.

[tarek29]

I think that true islamic state is impossible with non muslim minority.In true islamic state all citizens should be Muslims I think (maybe im wrong however). I also have a quesstion. Whats the difference between nowadays Saudi Arabia or Afhanistan under taliban and a true islamic state.

Actually it is big question that needs a lot of knowledge in Sharia to talk in details but in General there is place for non Muslim Minority or even Majority inside Islamic Ummah!

To talk about examples about sharia now times I think this is not fair for Islam, we can talk about that when there will be one UMMAH caliphate that expresses the opinion of Majority of Muslims!

Mean time Muslims countires either under invasion or pressure etc....

Also we don’t know really what is happening in Afghanistan, for example they say that it were forbidden for girls to learn in schools during the rule of Taliban!

And this is what the Media keep saying, I heard once one of Arabs who were in Afghanistan say in El Jazeera that they didnt have enough money to teach boys and thats why girls were little in schools, so who we should believe!?

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

[Md Mashud]

I think that true islamic state is impossible with non muslim minority.In true islamic state all citizens should be muslims i think (maybe im wrong however). I also have a quesstion. Whats the difference between nowadays Saudi Arabia or Afhanistan under taliban and a true islamic state.

Dear God, Saudi Arabia/Taliban are far off Islamic sharia-_-... Also, non-muslims are allowed to live under islamic states, it was done so in the past, during the crusaded, for example.

[wilberhum]

Dear God, Saudi Arabia/Taliban are far off Islamic sharia-_-... Also, non-muslims are allowed to live under islamic states, it was done so in the past, during the crusaded, for example.

Non-Muslims are allowed to live under Islamic states as second or third class citizens.

Granted that was better than Muslims got from the Christians.
Usually the Muslims weren’t allowed to live.

But don’t mistake it as anything the vast majority of non-Muslim living in a Democracy would want.

[bewildred]

Hi wilber,

I agree with your signature but not with the statements you made.

I think that there's nothing nor no one who's gonna succeed to change your so very clichéed and stereotyped opinions on the Islamic societies (LOOK AT MY AVATAR)


Bewildred S.

[wilberhum]

Hi wilber,

I agree with your signature but not with the statements you made.

I think that there's nothing nor no one who's gonna succeed to change your so very clichéed and stereotyped opinions on the Islamic societies (LOOK AT MY AVATAR)


Bewildred S.

Not wanting to stur up a mud slinging contest, I'm going to send you a PM.
I would love to here something back from you showing that non-Muslims were not second class citizens.

Any one who would like to see it can PM me.

PS: It's isn't anti-Islamic, it is just historical facts.

[Amadeus85]

Dear God, Saudi Arabia/Taliban are far off Islamic sharia-_-...

What are the main differences? Dont Saudis have full sharia law established, just like taliban in Afghanistan had?

[Woodrow]

What are the main differences? Dont Saudis have full sharia law established, just like taliban in Afghanistan had?

From anybody who as ever been in Saudi, you will get no as an answer. Although there are some parts of Saudi that are close to having sharia law. but, some of the large cities are more like New York than what you would expect to find in a Muslim country.

[جوري]

I have lived in Saudi Arabia for four years...
a monarchy isn't a khilfaha or runs by sharia law...
Don't you get tired of explaining things to people WHO DON'T WANT TO GET IT? what is the point of this topic? they hate Islam and sharia law.. fine, no one is sticking a gun to their head.. however, and what concerns me most is nipping any effort to get the Muslim world to unite and have a khalifite system, the likes we have seen under the Abbasids, Fatimids the Umayyads, Andalusia or even the Ottomans...

He (S.A.W.) said: "The prophet-hood will last as long as Allah (S.W.T.) is willing, then he will lift it. Then, a rightly guided Khilafah will be according to the prophet’s way and will last as long as Allah is willing, then Allah will lift it. Then, there will be a hereditary power that will last as long as Allah is willing, then Allah will lift it. Then, there will be dictatorships that will last as long as Allah is willing, then Allah will lift it. Then, there will be a Khilafah according to the prophet’s way. The prophet, then fell silent." {Authentic Hadith reported by Imams Ahmad, Al-Bazar and At-Tabrani.}

I think the Hadith of the prophet has happened and continues to happen... until it is the will of Allah that it be lifted.. with that I hope this topic is closed insha'Allah in observance of Ramadan and out of respect for the sanctity of the Muslim Empire..

:w:

[Woodrow]

:w:

agreed this has gone way far from the original topic and is no longer a peaceful thread.