MORALITY and GOD

[Jameel Bismilla]

Morality – is a set of customs to society that regulate relationship and prescribe modes of behavior to enhance group survival. A rule of moral conduct. This is the essence that separated herd of fauna into human.
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Human society started a nomadic lives and later evolved into tribes of hunter-gatherers where instinct of morality needed to govern a crude civilization. Physical strength dominated the struggled for dominancy and the needs of mechanism to perpetuate leadership was the main concerned of the dominant male.
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On one thunder storm season, lightning struck that started fire intrigued dominant male of power that can not be explained on thus period. Based of lightning incident, herd instinct has conceived a projected power to provide basis in the implementation of morality. Should laws of morality be observe and followed, a giver was required in order to be authenticated for universal adherence
and acceptance. God was created by mankind through their image on thus stages based on myth, dreams and visions as Projected Giver of Morality Laws. Rules in formed of cult-dogma were designed fitted with anathema and rigorous physical implementation of the dominant leaders. Those were the survival of the fittest … and only individuals adhered to the rules of God were fitted to live and to join the new human society.
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Rules… evolved into beliefs those were the basis of traditional faith that provide sustainable potent authority for the God-given Morality Laws.
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Beliefs that were reasonable and rational on thus particular period based on knowledge they possessed, whether or not true or probable does not matter, for it was written. Some quarters attempted to joined and designed dogmas but separated by their individual interests. Dogmatic competitions started to provoke on new human society and superstition was born to give way on blurred and rejected dogmas.
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Competition for foods on hunter-gathers era evolved into dogmatic struggled and dominations. Kingdoms were established through exploitation of dominance, using gods and goddesses to provide projected powers. Those were the scuffled of god and goddesses to dominate humanity… until the time of Abraham where mankind attempted to unified god. Latter generations tried to incorporate all cult-dogmas and bind mankind into religion, but same anathema was attached to it.
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So the basic of MORALITY is ... "DO UNTO TO OTHERS, WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE OTHERS, TO DO UNTO TO YOU"

[IbnAbdulHakim]

bro wats meant by nomadic lives :?

[Joe98]

Morality – is a set of customs to society that regulate relationship and prescribe modes of behavior to enhance group survival.

So the basic of MORALITY is ... "DO UNTO TO OTHERS, WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE OTHERS, TO DO UNTO TO YOU"

Yes Yes Yes.

Thank you for describing Athiests!
-

[asadxyz]

Yes Yes Yes.

Thank you for describing Athiests!
-

Morality and Atheists ?? Very strange.That morality which atheist society has spread in the form of "millions of single mothers".That morality which has made the females as an earning tool in the "Porn industery" ? Which morality you are talking about?

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[ranma1/2]

Morality and Atheists ?? Very strange.That morality which atheist society has spread in the form of "millions of single mothers".That morality which has made the females as an earning tool in the "Porn industery" ? Which morality you are talking about?

evidence?

I would say it is the morality of religions that fear or refuse prophylactics that lead to teenage pregnancies."which i assume you were referring to and not single mothers." As for the porn industry. There is nothing immoral about porn. It is this puritanical fear of sex that i deem immoral as well as the unethical treatment torward women caused by it.

[wilberhum]

http://www.adherents.com/adh_faq.html#God

Between 87.6 to 92.2% of the world's population professes belief in God, deities or similarly understood Higher Power.

Interesting to realize that less than 13% of the world population is responsible for all the out of wedlock children and the entire porn industry. :skeleton:
Or maybe they get some help? Must be the agnostics. :D

[asadxyz]

evidence?

.

Single-Parent Statistics

User Rating: / 2
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Here are some statistics gathered from various sources. Statistics are hard numbers that can be interpreted various ways. This list is provided to indicate the need for ministry to this particular group of people. It is not meant to disparage any particular group of people. Our goal is that you will use these numbers to bring the problem to light so that the church can build an effective ministry. Keep in mind that there are successful single parents, custodial and non-custodial, and they usually become successful when they have the love and support of a local church.
Single Parent Households

In 1998, 26% of all families with children were headed by single parents.
Press Release cb98-228.html, U.S.Census Bureau, www.census.gov, April 29, 1999.


In 1998, an estimated 42% of all custodial parents had never married, 38% had divorced, only 5% were widowed, and about 15% were separated.
“Census Bureau Facts for Features,” U.S. Census Bureau, www.census.gov, April 29, 1999.
Single Mother Households

In 1998, 7.7 million (78%) of single mothers maintained their own household. Most of these mothers (69%) had no other adult in the home to help them out.
Press Release cb00-ff.06, U.S. Census Bureau, www.census.gov, May 3, 2000.
Single Father Households
In 1998, 85% of custodial single fathers maintained their own household. Over half (55%) of these fathers had at least one other adult in their home to help them out.
Press Release cb99-03, U.S. Census Bureau, www.census.gov, June 6, 2000.


Of single fathers raising their own children in 1998, 11% cared for 3 or more children.
“Two Parent Versus Single Father Families,” U.S. Census Bureau Public Information Office, June 6, 2000.
Single Grandparent Households

In 1997, 340,000 grandmothers were raising their grandchildren without a grandfather or the children’s parents present.
Press Release cb00-ff.03, U.S. Census Bureau, www.census.gov, February 23, 2000.
Income/Poverty

In 1998, the median income for single mother households was $18,000; for single father households the income was $30,000. (The median income for married couple families with children was $57,000.) Note: this does not include non-custodial single parents or those that are not householders.
“Historical Income Tables- Families,” Bureau of the Census, www.census.gov, Last revised October 4, 1999.
Child Support

One third of custodial mothers and one third of custodial fathers do not have a child support order because they did not pursue child support or they could not locate the absent parent.
Current Population Reports, U.S. Census Bureau, www.census.gov, (P23-189), June 2000.


In 1996, eight million (58%) of all custodial parents had child support awards—61% for mothers and 40% for fathers.
Current Population Reports, U.S. Census Bureau, www.census.gov, March 2000.
Welfare

By May 1999, between 61% and 87% of adults leaving public assistance had gotten jobs. Most still earn below the poverty level and are often without benefits. Between 19% and 30% of those who leave welfare find it necessary to return to the rolls.
“Most Find Jobs After Leaving Welfare,” by Judith Havemann, Washington Post, May 27.
Divorce

Only 11% of the adult population are currently divorced. Of all adults, 25% have experienced at least one divorce. Christians divorce at a higher rate (27%) than non-Christians (24%).
“Christians Are Most Likely to Experience Divorce Than Are Non-Christians,” The Barna Research Group, Ltd., December 21, 1999.
Unwed Pregnancy

In 1999, 41% of all first births were born to premarital parents. Of females ages 15 to 29, 53% of first children were conceived out of wedlock.
Press Release (cb99-213), U.S. Census Bureau’s Public Information Office, December 20, 1999.
Fatherless Children

An estimated 25 million (40%) of children are growing up without fathers in the home.
“American Agenda,” World news Tonight with Peter Jennings, December 13, 1994.


About 13 million (50%) of children without fathers in the home have never even been in their father’s home.
“American Agenda,” World news Tonight with Peter Jennings, December 13, 1994.
Associated Risks

Boys living in a fatherless home are two to three times more likely to be involved in crime, drop out of school, and get divorced. Girls living in a fatherless home are two to three times more likely to become prenant teenagers and have their marriages end in divorce.
“Heading Toward a Fatherless Society,” by Barry Kliff, MSNBC News, www.msnbc.com, March 31, 1999.
Church Involvement

Only 5% of single parent family population attend church regularly.
The Hidden Mission Field, by Theresa McKenna, Winepress Publishing, 1999
Taken from Crown Financial Ministries by Larry Burket

source: http://singles.ag.org/index.php?opti...&Ite mid=2226
__________________

[Trumble]

Morality and Atheists ?? Very strange.That morality which atheist society has spread in the form of "millions of single mothers".

The is nothing immoral about being a single mother. There is a great deal immoral about being a husband who beats his wife and/or children... of course, everyone who does that must be an atheist too, hmmm.. ?

[asadxyz]

The is nothing immoral about being a single mother. There is a great deal immoral about being a husband who beats his wife and/or children... of course, everyone who does that must be an atheist too, hmmm.. ?

Who has made her single mother??
Atheist men who enjoy these women for a while and throw them away without any responsibility.What a brutality ? And you say "nothing immoral".
What sort of mentality it is ??

[wilberhum]

Who has made her single mother??
Atheist men who enjoy these women for a while and throw them away without any responsibility.What a brutality ? And you say "nothing immoral".
What sort of mentality it is ??

da. So Atheist = Fornicator. Interesting. :hmm:
And only Atheist Fornicat? :hiding:

[asadxyz]

da. So Atheist = Fornicator. Interesting. :hmm:
And only Atheist Fornicat? :hiding:

Statistics are speaking
A while ago one atheist has said ,"Porn is not immoral".
What sort of proof do you want ?

[wilberhum]

Statistics are speaking

Your stats say nothing about religion.
You just can't accept that people who think differently than you have morals.
I guess that says more about you than them. :D

[wilberhum]

Theists are so hung up on sex.

Killing for god. Ho hum, who cares?
Fornication is the greatest evil in the world.

Kill people for there sexual actions with another consenting adult.
But don’t say any thing bad about another Muslim, no matter how many people he kills.

I’m sorry I just don’t understand. Over a year on this forum and two on another, I just can’t get my head around so much hatred against people who have done you no harm.

Some must think sex is the only factor in morality.

[asadxyz]

Theists are so hung up on sex.

Killing for god. Ho hum, who cares?
Fornication is the greatest evil in the world.

Kill people for there sexual actions with another consenting adult.
But don’t say any thing bad about another Muslim, no matter how many people he kills.

I’m sorry I just don’t understand. Over a year on this forum and two on another, I just can’t get my head around so much hatred against people who have done you no harm.

Some must think sex is the only factor in morality.

Women are being exploited sexually to earn money (atheist code).But it is not the only issue.
Atheists are playing with life of the people by Promoting Sexual anarchy ----------> AIDS
Atheists are playing with the life of the people by Promoting Alcohol -----> Life long morbidity
Is this not true?

[wilberhum]

Women are being exploited sexually to earn money (atheist code).But it is not the only issue.
Atheists are playing with life of the people by Promoting Sexual anarchy ----------> AIDS
Atheists are playing with the life of the people by Promoting Alcohol -----> Life long morbidity
Is this not true?

Now atheists are promoting alcohol.

Man you do need a life.

Who is feeding you all this SH*T?
Are you over 12?

Is this not true?

Not harely restricted to atheists. Atheists are like every one else, there are some good ones and some bad ones.

Just like there are some good Jews and some bad Jews. There are good Muslims and bad Muslims.
Of course all Agnosics are good. :D

This is insain. I have to go home. :confused:

[asadxyz]

Now atheists are promoting alcohol.

Man you do need a life.

Who is feeding you all this SH*T?
Are you over 12?


Not harely restricted to atheists. Atheists are like every one else, there are some good ones and some bad ones.

These things can be promoted by only that group who has no "moral values".I do not think any religion can promotes such non sense .
Atheists are the one who have no moral Code.

[ranma1/2]

Single-Parent Statistics

User Rating: / 2
PoorBest
Here are some statistics gathered from various sources. Statistics are hard numbers that can be interpreted various ways. This list is provided to indicate the need for ministry to this particular group of people. It is not meant to disparage any particular group of people. Our goal is that you will use these numbers to bring the problem to light so that the church can build an effective ministry. Keep in mind that there are successful single parents, custodial and non-custodial, and they usually become successful when they have the love and support of a local church.
Single Parent Households

.....
Only 11% of the adult population are currently divorced. Of all adults, 25% have experienced at least one divorce. Christians divorce at a higher rate (27%) than non-Christians (24%).
“Christians Are Most Likely to Experience Divorce Than Are Non-Christians,” The Barna Research Group, Ltd., December 21, 1999.
Unwed Pregnancy

In 1999, 41% of all first births were born to premarital parents. Of females ages 15 to 29, 53% of first children were conceived out of wedlock.
..........

Only 5% of single parent family population attend church regularly....

source: http://singles.ag.org/index.php?opti...&Ite mid=2226
__________________

None of this has anything to do with atheism. the very last part shows that single parent families may not attend church. And it seems to show that if your christian your more likely to have a divorce and thus create single parent families.

[ranma1/2]

Who has made her single mother??
Atheist men who enjoy these women for a while and throw them away without any responsibility.What a brutality ? And you say "nothing immoral".
What sort of mentality it is ??

judging from the evidence provided its the religous fathers that do that.

[ranma1/2]

These things can be promoted by only that group who has no "moral values".I do not think any religion can promotes such non sense .
Atheists are the one who have no moral Code.

wrong. atheists are just as capable as anyone else in having a moral code.
morality does not come from religion anymore than it comes from nintendo.

[asadxyz]

wrong. atheists are just as capable as anyone else in having a moral code.
morality does not come from religion anymore than it comes from nintendo.

Who has said this ?

There is nothing immoral about porn

[Isambard]

Yes Yes Yes.

Thank you for describing Athiests!
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Err...speak for yourself.

Atheism is simply lack of believe in a deity or deities. Thats it.

[Isambard]

These things can be promoted by only that group who has no "moral values".I do not think any religion can promotes such non sense .
Atheists are the one who have no moral Code.

Did you know that from the perspective of every non-muslim, muslims have no morals? Hell, even muslims cant decide with 100% everything that is moral and immoral. *gasp!*

Wanna know a little secret? Morality is subjective. Yes I know, I blew your mind. That'll $5:D

[Joe98]

Atheists are playing with the life of the people by Promoting Alcohol

Is this not true?

No it is not true.

Please find for us an advertisment for alcohol which was produced by an athiest.

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[asadxyz]

No it is not true.

Please find for us an advertisment for alcohol which was produced by an athiest.

-

Atheists have no moral code as the religions have.
Why in such societies women are being exploited and Porn industery is flourishing.Why single mothers ? Why AIDS prevalent .Why Alcohol prevalent ?
No moral values except "rod" or state laws.Let me know why they do not ban alcohol? ONly Monetary gain.??This is all what atheism teaches.

[Joe98]

Atheists have no moral code as the religions have.
Why in such societies......

Please point us to an athiest society so we can discuss.

-

[asadxyz]

Please point us to an athiest society so we can discuss.

-

Exploitation of women ,alcoholism ,porn industery ,spreading of AIDS ,all these faculties belong to such a group who is immoral and lacking inner motive to stop all this non sense.Who can be other than atheists who have no moral code and say "Porn is not immoral"?.

[wilberhum]

Exploitation of women ,alcoholism ,porn industery ,spreading of AIDS ,all these faculties belong to such a group who is immoral and lacking inner motive to stop all this non sense.Who can be other than atheists who have no moral code and say "Porn is not immoral"?.

Every once in a while something comes to surface and there is no existing word that describes it and a new word needs to be created.

[MAD]Atheistaphobia[/MAD].

[guyabano]

Atheists have no moral code as the religions have.
Why in such societies women are being exploited and Porn industery is flourishing.Why single mothers ? Why AIDS prevalent .Why Alcohol prevalent ?
No moral values except "rod" or state laws.Let me know why they do not ban alcohol? ONly Monetary gain.??This is all what atheism teaches.

I just say:

What you so called non-Moral-Code people do free , many muslims do secretly.
or do you think, all muslims are innocent, now do you ?

I was curious, so I clicked the link 'Muslims4marriage.com' they advertise here on the forum and , *pheeewww* I saw a few half-naked muslim girls posing on pics. Just look for members like 'lovelyfatima' in sexy yellow top shirt or 'slave4Allah' with huge cleavage.

So the answer to

This is all what atheism teaches

I can only reply 'Islam teaches no better', they just do it secretly !

[metalted]

thats true I wonder if its better to believe in strict codes yet violate them, or to not believe in them and not violate them...

Morality i think is a good concept, alcohol and pre marital sex can lead to problems like disease and self injury from acting stupid.. all things in excess gluttony can lead to lack of wisdom and much selfishness..\

however I find many people who are very religious and moral that are extremely selfish and lack wisdom.. some religious people can be bigoted and cruel to others not from thier religion. also i find people who are very inhibited by thier religion can become very rebellious later in life and do all kinds of immoral things that will get them in trouble later in life...

I think the best testement to character is someone who has free ability to do immoral things and chooses not too...not because he fears punishment or ostracisation, but because he simply chooses not too...

and those that do things in moderation and are careful and do not cause harm to others.. there is no reason to be to judgemental i think.

In America most of us are raised in rather moral house holds and our parents tell us not to drink not to smoke, not to do reckless things.. to do our school work.. But as we become teenagers we rebel against our parents.. so we get punished and yelled at.... and then as teenagers then we move away and we grow up and have families and do the same to our kids because we realise our parents were right all along..

hollywood and porn is not an accurate observation of our culture..

[wilberhum]

Exploitation of women ,alcoholism ,porn industery ,spreading of AIDS ,all these faculties belong to such a group who is immoral and lacking inner motive to stop all this non sense.Who can be other than atheists who have no moral code and say "Porn is not immoral"?.

There is no mention of alcohol, so they must not be immoral atheists.

http://www.gvnet.com/childprostitution/Iran.htm
Child Prostitution
The Commercial Sexual Exploitation of Children
Islamic Republic of Iran
Iran has one of the highest rates of drug usage in the region. In addition to its social and economic consequences, drug use is emerging as a major contributor to HIV infection and AIDS.

Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2005

TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS – According to foreign observers, women and girls are trafficked to Pakistan, Turkey, and Europe for sexual exploitation. Boys from Bangladesh, Pakistan, and Afghanistan were trafficked through the country to the Gulf states. Afghan women and girls were trafficked to the country for sexual exploitation and forced marriages. Internal trafficking for sexual exploitation and forced labor also occurs.

The Committee is concerned about reports of trafficking and sale of persons under 18 years of age, particularly young girls from rural areas, facilitated by "temporary marriages" or "siqeh" - marriages which last from 1 hour to 99 years. It is also concerned at reports of the trafficking of such persons from Afghanistan to Iran, who are apparently sold or sent by their families in Afghanistan for exploitation, including cheap labor.


Political Executions, Child Prostitution, and Forced Marriage at the Age of 9

Child prostitution has risen 635 percent in recent years. Dozens of Iranian girls are brought to Karachi, Pakistan, to be sold as sex slaves every day. Reports in Tehran newspapers indicate that senior government figures have been involved in human trafficking. There are at least 300,000 runaway girls in Iran.

Child Prostitution Ring Run By Revolutionary Guards Officers Uncovered In Iran

A number of government officials and security officers were arrested during raids on at least five houses used as brothels in and around the town of Neka (northern Iran). The raids, conducted during the past two weeks, uncovered several organized child prostitution rings running the brothels. Many runaway girls, some as young as 13, were being forced into prostitution by these gangs.

Fear of imminent execution/fear of flogging

“Leyla M", who has a mental age of eight, is reportedly facing imminent execution for "morality-related" offences arising from her being forced into prostitution as a child. According to a Tehran newspaper report of 28 November, she was sentenced to death by a court in the central Iranian city of Arak while she was 18.

Human Trafficking and Forced Prostitution

This abhorrent form of exploitation does not confine itself to adult women, but extends to children as well. The head of the Tehran province judiciary asserts that traffickers looking to sell women in the international market target girls between 13 and 17, although some of the girls are reported to be as young as 8 and 10. The younger girls are often forced to work as maids until slave traders deem them old enough to work out of clubs, motels, or brothels.

Iran's Trafficking of Persons, Especially Women and Children

The prostitution of children also has surfaced as a matter of concern. In January 2000, Iranian authorities closed down six brothels in Tehran and arrested 35 people, including some minors. Every day, an average of 45 Iranian girls run away from home to escape poverty, abuse, and social imprisonment. Though some are picked up by the police and brought to welfare organizations, many falls into the hands of organized prostitution rings.

[asadxyz]

I just say:

What you so called non-Moral-Code people do free , many muslims do secretly.
or do you think, all muslims are innocent, now do you ?

I was curious, so I clicked the link 'Muslims4marriage.com' they advertise here on the forum and , *pheeewww* I saw a few half-naked muslim girls posing on pics. Just look for members like 'lovelyfatima' in sexy yellow top shirt or 'slave4Allah' with huge cleavage.

So the answer to


I can only reply 'Islam teaches no better', they just do it secretly !

Your logic is absolutely wrong.Islam does not teach nakeness.Study its teaching.'
Atheists have no moral code ,if there is bring forward.Their only source of guidance is their own wisdom.Since wisdom and thought of every person may be different ,so there cannot be any consesus on any Moral code.
This factor is not present in Islam.
If some atheist adopts naked ness ,he may think it is correct according to his moral code (because there is no standardization) but in case of Islam no one can say it is right in Islam.
It is the reason :

1. Women exploitation more (much more ) in atheist societies
2. Porn industery is flourishing much more in atheist society
3. Alcoholism is much more prevalent in this society.

Because "money " is the only factor (according to atheist moral code) which matters.
But on the other hand a true muslim will be afraid of doing such act even in lonliness because he knows tha "Allah" is aware of all his deeds.

[Joe98]

There are no athiest societies so you have no argument.

In the West most believe in the rights of the individual. If an individual wants to walk around naked thats fine. But the moral code is that you cannot do so in public.

So it needs to be limited to a group of like minded people who do so behind a big fence.

In an Islamic society the fence would be destroyed and the people punished.

In Islam the individual has no rights - you must obey Islam.

[guyabano]

Your logic is absolutely wrong.Islam does not teach nakeness.Study its teaching.'
Atheists have no moral code ,if there is bring forward.Their only source of guidance is their own wisdom.Since wisdom and thought of every person may be different ,so there cannot be any consesus on any Moral code.
This factor is not present in Islam.
If some atheist adopts naked ness ,he may think it is correct according to his moral code (because there is no standardization) but in case of Islam no one can say it is right in Islam.
It is the reason :

1. Women exploitation more (much more ) in atheist societies
2. Porn industery is flourishing much more in atheist society
3. Alcoholism is much more prevalent in this society.

Because "money " is the only factor (according to atheist moral code) which matters.
But on the other hand a true muslim will be afraid of doing such act even in lonliness because he knows tha "Allah" is aware of all his deeds.

Hmmm, at least have the decency, to say 'This is my opinion' and don't use the 'we' because many muslims don't share your point of view.

About your 'facts', could I see some links of your source of informations, or is it just again YOUR guessing?

You know, don't put muslims on an too much high podium, because you know, the higher you climb, the deeper you're going to fall down.
In addition, topic 'Morality' : My wife often chat on Yahoo with friends of her country. When people see her profile and her pic, many MEN contact her with some really specific claims like 'Can you show me your....' etc..
And guess what, most are MUSLIMS from Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey.

So don't tell me about Morality among Muslims. This is so ridiculous.

[asadxyz]

Hmmm, at least have the decency, to say 'This is my opinion' and don't use the 'we' because many muslims don't share your point of view.

About your 'facts', could I see some links of your source of informations, or is it just again YOUR guessing?

You know, don't put muslims on an too much high podium, because you know, the higher you climb, the deeper you're going to fall down.
In addition, topic 'Morality' : My wife often chat on Yahoo with friends of her country. When people see her profile and her pic, many MEN contact her with some really specific claims like 'Can you show me your....' etc..
And guess what, most are MUSLIMS from Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey.

So don't tell me about Morality among Muslims. This is so ridiculous.

I have no reason not to believe you.This non sense might have happened.But almighty Allah and His Prophet(PBUH) 's teachings do not allow it.So it is by itself a proof that those persons do not belong to muslim community even if they have muslim names.Practically those are "Atheists".
Because it is only the atheists group which can think so immorally and drops from the level of humanity.(Actions speak louder than words)
Examples I have quoted above.

[wilberhum]

asadxyz,
Any reason you chose not to respond to my last two posts?

Could it be athiestaphobia denial?

[guyabano]

1. Women exploitation more (much more ) in atheist societies
2. Porn industery is flourishing much more in atheist society
3. Alcoholism is much more prevalent in this society.

I still wait for some reliable sources where the 'WE' support those statements of yours !

Please don't miss to provide me

I have no reason not to believe you.This non sense might have happened.But almighty Allah and His Prophet(PBUH) 's teachings do not allow it.So it is by itself a proof that those persons do not belong to muslim community even if they have muslim names.Practically those are "Atheists".
Because it is only the atheists group which can think so immorally and drops from the level of humanity.(Actions speak louder than words)
Examples I have quoted above.

Are you the one, who gives the definition, who is a muslim and who not?
I saw really seducing pics of muslims girls on this website 'Muslims4marriage'. In that case, there are 2 possibilities:

- Or you are speaking rubbish
- Or LI Forum make advertising for 'evil' websites

[asadxyz]

I still wait for some reliable sources where the 'WE' support those statements of yours !

Please don't miss to provide me



Are you the one, who gives the definition, who is a muslim and who not?
I saw really seducing pics of muslims girls on this website 'Muslims4marriage'. In that case, there are 2 possibilities:

- Or you are speaking rubbish
- Or LI Forum make advertising for 'evil' websites

Do not beat about the bush.If you have some moral code ,bring forward.
If no which I am sure you do not have ,accept it.
So simple.

[Joe98]

I am an Athiest. For my morale code all you need to do is go back to the first post in this thread.

Morality – is a set of customs to society that regulate relationship and prescribe modes of behavior to enhance group survival.

So the basic of MORALITY is ... "DO UNTO TO OTHERS, WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE OTHERS, TO DO UNTO TO YOU"

Why do you think this is so horrible?

[asadxyz]

I am an Athiest. For my morale code all you need to do is go back to the first post in this thread.





Why do you think this is so horrible?

who has constructed this code ? Self made ,no proof .
If Code is so why are these playing with the life of people through

1. Alcoholism
2. Porn industery
3. Spreading AIDS
4. Abortions (Killing of human being in the uterus)

Is this only for monetary gain ?
So human being are worse than any thing according to atheists.

[guyabano]

Do not beat about the bush.If you have some moral code ,bring forward.
If no which I am sure you do not have ,accept it.
So simple.

You still didn't provide me any sources, don't miss to do that. I'm eager to read

And concerning my moral code, don't worry, I'm happily married and have 2 wonderful kids. I'm an absolut faithful husband, so I have a good moral code, but thanks for your concern

[Isambard]

who has constructed this code ? Self made ,no proof .
If Code is so why are these playing with the life of people through

1. Alcoholism
2. Porn industery
3. Spreading AIDS
4. Abortions (Killing of human being in the uterus)

Is this only for monetary gain ?
So human being are worse than any thing according to atheists.

Please show me this supposide "Atheist Bible" which promotes such things. If you cannot, then you are grossly ignorant.

[asadxyz]

You still didn't provide me any sources, don't miss to do that. I'm eager to read

And concerning my moral code, don't worry, I'm happily married and have 2 wonderful kids. I'm an absolut faithful husband, so I have a good moral code, but thanks for your concern

If you are faithful to your wife ,that is an individual matter.Otherwise atheists do think"Porn is not immoral".
Cann't you see where porn industery is more prevalent?
Cann't you see where alcoholism is more prevalent ?
Cann't you see where AIDS is spreading like a wild fire ?
Cann't you see which societies have declared killing of human being (abortion) legal ?

[Isambard]

If you are faithful to your wife ,that is an individual matter.Otherwise atheists do think"Porn is not immoral".
Cann't you see where porn industery is more prevalent?
Cann't you see where alcoholism is more prevalent ?
Cann't you see where AIDS is spreading like a wild fire ?
Cann't you see which societies have declared killing of human being (abortion) legal ?

1.Christian nations?
2.Christian nations?
3.African nations?
4.Secular nations? (thou this is definitional thus bunk)

So your saying secular folk (which does not mean atheist) are at least in part in favor of abortion. Christians like porn and alcohol, and black people spread AIDs.

I think I play your crazy game too.

Can;t you see which nations have the worst in-fighting?
Cant you see which nations have horrible human rights violations?
Cant you see which nations have high levels of violence?

Fun game you got here :D

[asadxyz]

1.Christian nations?
2.Christian nations?
3.African nations?
4.Secular nations? (thou this is definitional thus bunk)

So your saying secular folk (which does not mean atheist) are at least in part in favor of abortion. Christians like porn and alcohol, and black people spread AIDs.

I think I play your crazy game too.

Can;t you see which nations have the worst in-fighting?
Cant you see which nations have horrible human rights violations?
Cant you see which nations have high levels of violence?

Fun game you got here :D

Please do not blame the Christians.How is possible a person believes in God and has a moral code and commits such heinous crimes.They must be those who do not moral code.
Even if some religious person does a bad thing at least recognizes that it is bad through his divine moral code but atheists say "Porn is not immoral "
Who is the culprit then ??
Secondly ,If you analyze the mental make-up of atheists ,those seem to be having very irrational thinking like "Design can appear without a designer'.Do you find any rationality in this rubbish idea?
So root evil existing in this world is this "irrational group"

[Isambard]

Please do not blame the Christians.How is possible a person believes in God and has a moral code and commits such heinous crimes.They must be those who do not moral code.
Even if some religious person does a bad thing at least recognizes that it is bad through his divine moral code but atheists say "Porn is not immoral "
Who is the culprit then ??
Secondly ,If you analyze the mental make-up of atheists ,those seem to be having very irrational thinking like "Design can appear without a designer'.Do you find any rationality in this rubbish idea?
So root evil existing in this world is this "irrational group"

I love your use of the 'No true Scottsman' arguement coupled with 4-5 other fallacies and top it off, dancing around the points I rebuttled and my points raised in turn. Your delusion seems so pertant that you refuse to see the glaring errors in your assumption that atheism is the root of evil, conveniantly ignoring the 8000yrs of human conflict all done to please some deity or another.

No matter, continue to fight your windmills dear Don Quixote:playing:

[fsmdude]

A little extract from The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins (Sorry if it's long, but it worth reading):

The Harvard biologist Marc Hauser, in his book
Moral Minds: How Nature Designed our Universal Sense of Right
and Wrong, has enlarged upon a fruitful line of thought
experiments originally suggested by moral philosophers. Hauser's
study will serve the additional purpose of introducing the way
moral philosophers think. A hypothetical moral dilemma is posed,
and the difficulty we experience in answering it tells us something
about our sense of right and wrong.

Where Hauser goes beyond the
philosophers is that he actually does statistical surveys and psychological
experiments, using questionnaires on the Internet, for
example, to investigate the moral sense of real people. From the
present point of view, the interesting thing is that most people come
to the same decisions when faced with these dilemmas, and their
agreement over the decisions themselves is stronger than their
ability to articulate their reasons. This is what we should expect if
we have a moral sense which is built into our brains, like our sexual
instinct or our fear of heights or, as Hauser himself prefers to say,
like our capacity for language (the details vary from culture to
culture, but the underlying deep structure of grammar is universal).
As we shall see, the way people respond to these moral tests, and
their inability to articulate their reasons, seems largely independent
of their religious beliefs or lack of them.

The message of Hauser's
book, to anticipate it in his own words, is this: 'Driving our moral
judgments is a universal moral grammar, a faculty of the mind that
evolved over millions of years to include a set of principles for
building a range of possible moral systems. As with language, the
principles that make up our moral grammar fly beneath the radar
of our awareness.'

Typical of Hauser's moral dilemmas are variations on the theme
of a runaway truck or 'trolley' on a railway line which threatens to
kill a number of people. The simplest story imagines a person,
Denise, standing by a set of points and in a position to divert the
trolley onto a siding, thereby saving the lives of five people trapped
on the main line ahead. Unfortunately there is a man trapped on the
siding. But since he is only one, outnumbered by the five people
trapped on the main track, most people agree that it is morally
permissible, if not obligatory, for Denise to throw the switch and
save the five by killing the one. We ignore hypothetical possibilities
such as that the one man on the siding might be Beethoven, or a
close friend.

Elaborations of the thought experiment present a series of
increasingly teasing moral conundrums. What if the trolley can be
stopped by dropping a large weight in its path from a bridge overhead?
That's easy: obviously we must drop the weight. But what if
the only large weight available is a very fat man sitting on the
bridge, admiring the sunset? Almost everybody agrees that it is
immoral to push the fat man off the bridge, even though, from one
point of view, the dilemma might seem parallel to Denise's, where
throwing the switch kills one to save five. Most of us have a strong
intuition that there is a crucial difference between the two cases,
though we may not be able to articulate what it is.
Pushing the fat man off the bridge is reminiscent of another
dilemma considered by Hauser. Five patients in a hospital are
dying, each with a different organ failing. Each would be saved if a
donor could be found for their particular faulty organ, but none is
available. Then the surgeon notices that there is a healthy man in
the waiting-room, all five of whose organs are in good working
order and suitable for transplanting. In this case, almost nobody
can be found who is prepared to say that the moral act is to kill the
one to save the five.

As with the fat man on the bridge, the intuition that most of us
share is that an innocent bystander should not suddenly be dragged
into a bad situation and used for the sake of others without his
consent. Immanuel Kant famously articulated the principle that a
rational being should never be used as merely an unconsenting
means to an end, even the end of benefiting others. This seems to
provide the crucial difference between the case of the fat man on the
bridge (or the man in the hospital waiting-room) and the man on
Denise's siding. The fat man on the bridge is being positively used
as the means to stop the runaway trolley. This clearly violates the
Kantian principle. The person on the siding is not being used to
save the lives of the five people on the line. It is the siding that is
being used, and he just has the bad luck to be standing on it. But,
when you put the distinction like that, why does it satisfy us? For
Kant, it was a moral absolute. For Hauser it is built into us by our
evolution.

The hypothetical situations involving the runaway trolley
become increasingly ingenious, and the moral dilemmas correspondingly
tortuous. Hauser contrasts the dilemmas faced by
hypothetical individuals called Ned and Oscar. Ned is standing by
the railway track. Unlike Denise, who could divert the trolley onto
a siding, Ned's switch diverts it onto a side loop which joins the
main track again just before the five people. Simply switching
the points doesn't help: the trolley will plough into the five anyway
when the diversion rejoins the main track. However, as it happens,
there is an extremely fat man on the diversionary track who is
heavy enough to stop the trolley. Should Ned change the points and
divert the train? Most people's intuition is that he should not. But
what is the difference between Ned's dilemma, and Denise's?
Presumably people are intuitively applying Kant's principle. Denise
diverts the trolley from ploughing into the five people, and the
unfortunate casualty on the siding is 'collateral damage', to use
the charmingly Rumsfeldian phrase. He is not being used by Denise
to save the others. Ned is actually using the fat man to stop the
trolley, and most people (perhaps unthinkingly), along with Kant
(thinking it out in great detail), see this as a crucial difference.
The difference is brought out again by the dilemma of Oscar.
Oscar's situation is identical to Ned's, except that there is a large
iron weight on the diversionary loop of track, heavy enough to stop
the trolley. Clearly Oscar should have no problem deciding to pull
the points and divert the trolley. Except that there happens to be a
hiker walking in front of the iron weight. He will certainly be killed
if Oscar pulls the switch, just as surely as Ned's fat man. The
difference is that Oscar's hiker is not being used to stop the trolley:
he is collateral damage, as in Denise's dilemma. Like Hauser, and
like most of Hauser's experimental subjects, I feel that Oscar is
permitted to throw the switch but Ned is not. But I also find it quite
hard to justify my intuition. Hauser's point is that such moral
intuitions are often not well thought out but that we feel them
strongly anyway, because of our evolutionary heritage.
In an intriguing venture into anthropology, Hauser and his
colleagues adapted their moral experiments to the Kuna, a small
Central American tribe with little contact with Westerners and no
formal religion. The researchers changed the 'trolley on a line'
thought experiment to locally suitable equivalents, such as
crocodiles swimming towards canoes. With corresponding minor
differences, the Kuna show the same moral judgements as the rest
of us.

Of particular interest for this book, Hauser also wondered
whether religious people differ from atheists in their moral
intuitions. Surely, if we get our morality from religion, they should
differ. But it seems that they don't. Hauser, working with the moral
philosopher Peter Singer,87 focused on three hypothetical dilemmas
and compared the verdicts of atheists with those of religious people.
226 1 II K (< O l> I) T i 1 s i
In each case, the subjects were asked to choose whether a
hypothetical action is morally 'obligatory', 'permissible' or
'forbidden'. The three dilemmas were:

1 Denise's dilemma. Ninety per cent of people said it was
permissible to divert the trolley, killing the one to save the five.

2 You see a child drowning in a pond and there is no other help
in sight. You can save the child, but your trousers will be
ruined in the process. Ninety-seven per cent agreed that you
should save the child (amazingly, 3 per cent apparently would
prefer to save their trousers).

3 The organ transplant dilemma described above. Ninety-seven
per cent of subjects agreed that it is morally forbidden to seize
the healthy person in the waiting-room and kill him for his
organs, thereby saving five other people.

The main conclusion of Hauser and Singer's study was that there
is no statistically significant difference between atheists and religious
believers in making these judgements. This seems compatible with
the view, which I and many others hold, that we do not need God
in order to be good - or evil.

[fsmdude]

You see, morality doesn't come from religion, even if religion sometime include morality (but most of the time religion hijack morality).

From my point of view (As an atheist, but I'm not talking for them. We're like a bunch of cats, it's really hard to make a coherent group with us), If others atheist disagree, please tell me; morality is based on the effect of our choice. So, an immoral action will cause sufferance and a moral action will cause good (and we always aim for the lesser evil).

So saying that rape is wrong (in a normal case, forget something like: If you don't do it, 6 billion human will die only because you didn't do it) is based on the fact that it's causing sufferance.

So when we apply the same rule to porn (as mentionned earlier):
Does pornography cause sufferance?
Well, if you show it to a 4 years old kid, it may cause psychological damage. But that's why it is reserved to +18.

Same thing for homosexuality: Does what happen between 2 consenting adult in a bed cause sufferance? No.
It's simple as that.

[Trumble]

The main conclusion of Hauser and Singer's study was that there is no statistically significant difference between atheists and religious believers in making these judgements. This seems compatible with
the view, which I and many others hold, that we do not need God
in order to be good - or evil.

The trouble with all that is that it rather dodges the essential point. You do not have to believe in a God to need one to to supply a sense of morality, or indeed anything else. All Dawkins is demonstrating is that belief doesn't necessarily make believers any more moral, and there is certainly plenty of empirical evidence to support that. None of the 'believers' here - or at least those with any sense - would deny that atheists can be just as 'moral' as they are when it comes to such decisions.

The far more interesting question is where that moral sense actually comes from whether the person concerned believes in God or not. Does it originate in reason and experience (both immediate and collectively over many generations) or is it an inherent part of our nature, made part of that nature by God? I believe there is a very strong case for the former, but our muslim and Christian friends would obviously disagree.

[جوري]

^^ good post!

peace