The Islamic veil across Europe

[guyabano]

Countries across the continent have wrestled with an issue that takes in religious freedom, female equality, secular traditions and even fears of terrorism.

FRANCE

A ban on Muslim headscarves and other "conspicuous" religious symbols at state schools was introduced in 2004.
The measure received overwhelming political and public support in a country where the separation of state and religion is enshrined in law.
However, headscarves can be worn in Muslim schools, and at university level, where the law on religious signs does not apply.

TURKEY

For the past 80 years Turks have lived in a secular state founded by Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who rejected headscarves as backward-looking in his campaign to secularise Turkish society.
Even so, it is estimated that as many as 65% of Turkish women cover their heads with a scarf.
Nonetheless, scarves are banned in civic spaces, including schools, universities - state or private - and official buildings.
In November 2005 the European Court of Human Rights ruled the ban was legitimate.

BRITAIN

There is no ban on Islamic dress in the UK.
However, schools are allowed to forge their own dress code.
The courts were forced to rule when a schoolgirl complained that her school sent her home for wearing a jilbab, which covers the entire body, except for hands, feet, face, and head.
The courts said the school made sufficient concessions by allowing the Islamic trousers and tunic.

GERMANY

In September 2003 the federal Constitutional Court ruled in favour of a teacher who wanted to wear an Islamic scarf to school.
However, it said states could change their laws locally if they wanted to.
At least four German states have gone on to ban teachers from wearing headscarves and in the state of Hesse the ban applies to all civil servants.

RUSSIA

Russia's Supreme Court has overturned a 1997 interior ministry ruling which forbade women from wearing headscarves in passport photos.

ITALY

In September 2004 local politicians in the north of Italy resurrected old laws against the wearing of masks, to ban women from wearing the all-over burqa.
In July 05 the Italian parliament approved anti-terrorist laws which make hiding one's features from the public - including through wearing the burqa - an offence.
The government has said it will put forward draft new legislation to ban the Islamic veil that covers the face.

BELGIUM

The city of Maaseik, on the Dutch border, has banned the niqab, which covers the whole body except for the eyes.

NETHERLANDS

The Dutch cabinet has backed a proposal by the country's immigration minister to ban Muslim women from wearing the burqa in public places.
The cabinet said burqas disturb public order, citizens and safety.
Critics of the proposed ban say it would violate civil rights.
An estimated 5% of people living in the Netherlands are Muslims. But there are just a few dozen women in the Netherlands who choose to wear the burqa, a traditional Islamic form of dress.

Source

[Pygoscelis]

As I've said before in other threads, I have no problem in principle with muslim head coverings. My only exception is that they should not be allowed to use their religion to enable them to obscure their features where others are not permitted to do so. Anywhere you can wear the covering that obscures the face, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask.

[chand]

Anywhere you can wear the covering that obscures the face, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask.

Is your intention the same as the women who wear the covering? most likely not...the covering which obscures the face is neither a fashion statement nor an attempt to decieve..so you cant really compare it to soemone wearing a ski mask..

[silkworm]

Pygoscelis:

1) The Bible also asks Women to wear veils as in
Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10} do it???

1 Cor. ch. x.: — “And let us not pollute ourselves with fornication, as some of them were polluted, and fell in one day to the number of twenty -three thousand.” Here is a blunder, for it is written “twenty-four thousand.”—Num. 25.

The arguement starts here, we say you do what you want to and leave us alone, we don't "criticize" you to loitering on beaches in half nude, and you leave out ladies alone.

You own Bible say what I quoted above - Do you have anything to say else, shouldn't you been doing what is said to you???

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[jzcasejz]

Is your intention the same as the women who wear the covering? most likely not...the covering which obscures the face is neither a fashion statement nor an attempt to decieve..so you cant really compare it to soemone wearing a ski mask..

True. I've heard that ski mask argument too many times before.

[Suomipoika]

True. I've heard that ski mask argument too many times before.

Ive heard the my intentions/values/religion/insertvariation is so special and more important than yours I have to have special rights to break the rules arguement too many times.

[ahsan28]

How I Came to Love the Veil

I used to look at veiled women as quiet, oppressed creatures -- until I was captured by the Taliban.

They called me a "bad" woman but let me go after I promised to read the Koran and study Islam. (Frankly, I'm not sure who was happier when I was freed -- they or I.)

Back home in London, I kept my word about studying Islam -- and was amazed by what I discovered. I'd been expecting Koran chapters on how to beat your wife and oppress your daughters; instead, I found passages promoting the liberation of women.

Having been on both sides of the veil, I can tell you that most Western male politicians and journalists who lament the oppression of women in the Islamic world have no idea what they are talking about. A careful reading of the Koran shows that just about everything that Western feminists fought for in the 1970s was available to Muslim women 1,400 years ago.

Yes, it is a religious obligation for Muslim women to dress modestly. My dress tells you that I am a Muslim and that I expect to be treated respectfully, much as a Wall Street banker would say that a business suit defines him as an executive to be taken seriously.

In the West, men still believe that they are superior to women, despite protests to the contrary. They still receive better pay for equal work -- whether in the mailroom or the boardroom -- and women are still treated as sexualized commodities whose power and influence flow directly from their appearance.

Now you tell me who is civilized and who is not.

By Yvonne Ridley

Yvonne Ridley is political editor of Islam Channel TV in London and coauthor

of "In the Hands of the Taliban: Her Extraordinary Story" (Robson Books).


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102001259.html

[wilberhum]

As I've said before in other threads, I have no problem in principle with muslim head coverings. My only exception is that they should not be allowed to use their religion to enable them to obscure their features where others are not permitted to do so. Anywhere you can wear the covering that obscures the face, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask.

Well Pygoscelis, they all seem to be against you.

I'm not! You make a valid point. :thumbs_up
The results of hiding an identify is what needs to be evaluated, not the reason.

[wilberhum]

How I Came to Love the Veil

I used to look at veiled women as quiet, oppressed creatures -- until I was captured by the Taliban.

They called me a "bad" woman but let me go after I promised to read the Koran and study Islam. (Frankly, I'm not sure who was happier when I was freed -- they or I.)

Back home in London, I kept my word about studying Islam -- and was amazed by what I discovered. I'd been expecting Koran chapters on how to beat your wife and oppress your daughters; instead, I found passages promoting the liberation of women.

Having been on both sides of the veil, I can tell you that most Western male politicians and journalists who lament the oppression of women in the Islamic world have no idea what they are talking about. A careful reading of the Koran shows that just about everything that Western feminists fought for in the 1970s was available to Muslim women 1,400 years ago.

Yes, it is a religious obligation for Muslim women to dress modestly. My dress tells you that I am a Muslim and that I expect to be treated respectfully, much as a Wall Street banker would say that a business suit defines him as an executive to be taken seriously.

In the West, men still believe that they are superior to women, despite protests to the contrary. They still receive better pay for equal work -- whether in the mailroom or the boardroom -- and women are still treated as sexualized commodities whose power and influence flow directly from their appearance.

Now you tell me who is civilized and who is not.

By Yvonne Ridley

Yvonne Ridley is political editor of Islam Channel TV in London and coauthor

of "In the Hands of the Taliban: Her Extraordinary Story" (Robson Books).


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...102001259.html

Finally, all the justification need for the Taliban to kidnap people. :raging:

[wilberhum]

Pygoscelis:

1) The Bible also asks Women to wear veils as in
Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10} do it???

1 Cor. ch. x.: — “And let us not pollute ourselves with fornication, as some of them were polluted, and fell in one day to the number of twenty -three thousand.” Here is a blunder, for it is written “twenty-four thousand.”—Num. 25.

The arguement starts here, we say you do what you want to and leave us alone, we don't "criticize" you to loitering on beaches in half nude, and you leave out ladies alone.

You own Bible say what I quoted above - Do you have anything to say else, shouldn't you been doing what is said to you???

We don't "criticize" you to loitering on beaches in half nude. Right! :skeleton:
Considering that your statement in its self is criticism. :-\
Not to mention it is always used as condemnation of the West. :raging:

[silkworm]

Oh, I see, you are one of the many anarchists we meet everyday who really are not interested in patching up differences or wanting to have religious tolerance, but are ready and willing to add fuel to fire.

So thanks very much for your presence and "Bye" to everyone, cause this is gonna be my last posting. Adios amigos

[Isambard]

As I've said before in other threads, I have no problem in principle with muslim head coverings. My only exception is that they should not be allowed to use their religion to enable them to obscure their features where others are not permitted to do so. Anywhere you can wear the covering that obscures the face, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask.

lol thats actually a very good arguement.

[Isambard]

Pygoscelis:

1) The Bible also asks Women to wear veils as in
Islam {I Corinthians 11:3-10} do it???

1 Cor. ch. x.: — “And let us not pollute ourselves with fornication, as some of them were polluted, and fell in one day to the number of twenty -three thousand.” Here is a blunder, for it is written “twenty-four thousand.”—Num. 25.

The arguement starts here, we say you do what you want to and leave us alone, we don't "criticize" you to loitering on beaches in half nude, and you leave out ladies alone.

You own Bible say what I quoted above - Do you have anything to say else, shouldn't you been doing what is said to you???

he's an atheist...

[Haidar_Abbas]

:sl: I dont have to much to say on this issue other than, al Islaam is the only thing that will save humanity from being destroyed by the cancer we know as secularism, and the secularist are shuddering with fear because we dont worship money and materialism we only prostrate to ALLAH (souhanhu wa t'ala) :peace: :sl:

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

As I've said before in other threads, I have no problem in principle with muslim head coverings. My only exception is that they should not be allowed to use their religion to enable them to obscure their features where others are not permitted to do so. Anywhere you can wear the covering that obscures the face, I should be allowed to wear a ski mask.

First thing is first: niqab aka veil is not obligatory. Many people claim it is but it isn't. As for the Hijab - that only covers the female's hair (since hair is a form of reproductive sucess - I will create a thread regarding Psychology and Islam later on this week which will cover this topic).

Lastly, ski masks obscure more of the face than a niqaab and Hijaab put together. :Evil:

[ahsan28]

Why I Wore A Veil When I Met John Paul II

The Vatican held a conference to prepare for the Jubilee Year of 2000. They invited a group of academics, writers and broadcasters. Despite some raised eyebrows from Westminster Cathedral about my eligibility, I was Britain's representative. It was a once-in-a-lifetime experience, and I was nervous.

The one thing I felt certain about was what to wear: the mantilla – a lace head-covering, usually black – perfectly blends humility, modesty and respect. For one thing, although it was once the must-have accessory of Catholic womanhood, only a very few, very pious women use it any more.

The Muslim veil is very similar. It is a garment steeped in ancient tradition, praised in holy text and worn by the faithful. Like the mantilla, it is also noticeably at odds with the contemporary taste for baring flesh. Wear it, and you announce your difference.

Neither mantilla nor veil is calculated as an aggressive provocation to society — quite the opposite: these are soft and feminine folds of cloth that modestly conceal a face and figure.

By Cristina Odone

Telegraph. UK

[ahsan28]

The attitude toward veiled women stems from ignorance or unfamiliarity with the other in the best case; hypocrisy and inconsistency in applying liberal values in most cases; and a simple, safe cover for hatred in the worst case. This combination aggravates the systematic discrimination against the Muslim woman, who pays for whatever option she chooses - whether she rebels against those who try to compel her to wear the veil against her will, or whether she needs to confront those who ostracize her due to their suspicion, hatred or revulsion over the veil. Wearing a veil is not a matter of aesthetics; it is a matter of individual freedom.

By Ayman Khatib-Yassin

The writer is an MA candidate at the Tel Aviv University School of Social Work.

HAARETZ (Israel Daily)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/810114.html

[Uthman]

Just you guys wait

[Haidar_Abbas]

:sl: well put akh Osman

:sl:

[Intisar]

Thank God I don't live in Europe, it's evident that the Ummah is having a tough time with acceptance. I honestly don't see how it effects anyone else if someone decides to wear a headscarf -- I doesn't hurt you! It's a conscious decision that someone who holds their religion dear to them makes. I understand that some countries want to have a seperation between Church and state, but is not allowing the Freedom of Religion really the way to go about it?

[wilberhum]

Just you guys wait

We are not waiting. We are fighting it right now. :raging:
It is thing like this that helps Islamophobia.

[Uthman]

Sorry, I intended it as a joke

:(

[wilberhum]

Sorry, I intended it as a joke

:(

I know you did. :peace: But, So were the cartoons. :-\

I was not offended, but it does play to the fear on many.

Peace

[Uthman]

Understood.

[Amadeus85]

Thank God I don't live in Europe, it's evident that the Ummah is having a tough time with acceptance. I honestly don't see how it effects anyone else if someone decides to wear a headscarf -- I doesn't hurt you! It's a conscious decision that someone who holds their religion dear to them makes. I understand that some countries want to have a seperation between Church and state, but is not allowing the Freedom of Religion really the way to go about it?

As far as i know for example in Egypt women in niqabs cant go to universties (or im wrong?), quite harsh rights against hijaabs are also in Tunisia and Marocco, not to mention Turkey. So its not only Europe.

[KAding]

Is your intention the same as the women who wear the covering? most likely not...the covering which obscures the face is neither a fashion statement nor an attempt to decieve..so you cant really compare it to soemone wearing a ski mask..

Who determines what a proper reason is to want to cover your face?

I really don't think anyone, least of all the government, should be in the business of rating beliefs and determining which are valid enough to grant rights to.

For the law, no one belief should necessarily be better than another belief IMHO. In other words, if someone for a completely wacky reason beliefs he has to wear a ski mask all day, well, then legally that opinion should be just as valid as your opinion that God tells you to wear a headscarf/niqab/burqa.

[Keltoi]

I wonder how long it will take before the issue of criminals taking advantage of full face coverings comes into play. Israel has already dealt with this problem before, but I wonder how Great Britain, the U.S., etc will deal with this looming problem?

[Pygoscelis]

Keltoi, that is exactly on point to what I said about ski masks.

It doesn't matter what the official line is as to why people cover their faces, and it doesn't matter what the traditional or majority reasons are for people covering their faces.

The simple fact of the matter is that by allowing them to cover their faces you are allowing them to shroud their identity. We have laws against people hiding their identity in certain security-sensitive places (Ie, the places I'm not allowed to wear a ski mask). Citing a religious dogma should NOT make for an exception.

For if it did, then those who wish to hide their identity for ANY reason, including dangerous ones, whether they be muslim women or not, could take advantage of the exception and wear the face obscuring garment.

Wherever I'm not allowed to wear a ski mask, you better not be allowed to wear a face covering. Period.

Veils that only cover the hair I have no issue with and agree that they are a lifestyle choice. And anywhere I am allowed to wear a baseball cap, and tuck my hair up into it, you should be allowed to wear that non-face obscuring veil.

[Pygoscelis]

You own Bible say what I quoted above - Do you have anything to say else, shouldn't you been doing what is said to you???

If you think that I of all people am a Christian, you've obviously made a rash and faulty assumption. I'm likely the most anti-christian poster here.

[Intisar]

As far as i know for example in Egypt women in niqabs cant go to universties (or im wrong?), quite harsh rights against hijaabs are also in Tunisia and Marocco, not to mention Turkey. So its not only Europe.

That's quite interesting, I never knew that. But anyway, the niqaab can be substituted with the hijaab so it doesn't seem like such a big problem. At least they didn't ban the entire headscarf there completely .