Competitor for the Holy Qur'an

Malaikah said:

Nah, not true. Firstly, one can't really appreciate the miraculous nature of the Quran if you aren't fluent in Arabic. Most people aren't. Secondly, most people haven't read the Quran in the first place. Thirdly, people don't care either way. Fourthly, people witnessed more obvious miracles, such as the splitting of the moon, and still didn't believe. So, no, I don't think that would be the case.

Yea...about the splitting of the moon....Something like that it pretty big potatoes regardless of where you live. I mean something so grand as the very moon splitting should be recorded across multiple historical texts...yet....its found nowhere else except for Islamic texts...so forgive me, I call into the question said miracle...

As per the miraculous nature of the Qur'an...wel despite having read it and agreeing it is a pretty well written piece of poetics and theology, I still dont see what so great about it. I mean comparatively, its actually pretty small and deals with a limited amount of issues if you but it beside just about any other religious book.

In terms of complexity, Id say the Divine Comedy, Paradise Lost, the Vedas, Diamond Sutra, are all more poetically diverse and complex. With the exception of Paradise Lost, all the aforementioned texts are also much larger.

I guess you could say that because I cant read Arabic, I am missing on something, but cant the same be said for every religion? I mean how can you deny "superior complexity" (using it from a subjective perspective of respective believers) of Buddhist or Hindu texts if you dont know Sanskrit? The torah if you dont know Hebrew, the bible if you dont know Aramaic/Hebrew/Latin/Greek etc.?

But you didn't produce miracles, a Holy Book to prove it, nor were you known unanimously as a trustworthy person (no offence, but the Prophet excelled in that), nor did you bring a message that was in accordance with what has come before it and also human instinct (that is, to believe in God).

Click to expand...

But you only believe that because the Qur'an and Hadiths tell you to. You are using your holy book to tell you it is holy and that the miracles are true. Thats circular logic.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Isambard said:

But you only believe that because the Qur'an and Hadiths tell you to. You are using your holy book to tell you it is holy and that the miracles are true. Thats circular logic.

Click to expand...

I don't think it's circular for the following reason:
The Qur'an is proof for it's own divine origin due to it's characteristics. I believe the Qur'an is God's word not only because it says so, but because I cannot Imagen any other plausible explanation for it's amazing characteristics, it's profound wisdom, it's superior style, and so on, ...

The Qur'an itself challenge mankind regarding this to:
And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. (Al-Baqara:23)

Anybody taking that challenge seriously, would first have to examine the Qur'an to see what the criteria are for making something "like it". And would then see that the standards are to high to be reachable.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Abdul Fattah said:

I don't think it's circular for the following reason:
The Qur'an is proof for it's own divine origin due to it's characteristics. I believe the Qur'an is God's word not only because it says so, but because I cannot Imagen any other plausible explanation for it's amazing characteristics, it's profound wisdom, it's superior style, and so on, ...

The Qur'an itself challenge mankind regarding this to:
And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. (Al-Baqara:23)

Anybody taking that challenge seriously, would first have to examine the Qur'an to see what the criteria are for making something "like it". And would then see that the standards are to high to be reachable.

Click to expand...

What are these characteristics?
Any wisdom in it isnt that special, at best it might be a collection of knowlege that you assume comes from a uneducated source.
what else? Ive read many books that are much better written. More poetical and more imaginative.
What is so god like about the quran?

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

ranma1/2 said:

What are these characteristics?
Any wisdom in it isnt that special, at best it might be a collection of knowlege that you assume comes from a uneducated source.
what else? Ive read many books that are much better written. More poetical and more imaginative.
What is so god like about the quran?

Click to expand...

Mahabrah, Wesh t'cal B'el Arbeea?

If that what I just wrote does not make any sense to you, there is no way you can know if you have ever read a better book.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Woodrow said:

Mahabrah, Wesh t'cal B'el Arbeea?

If that what I just wrote does not make any sense to you, there is no way you can know if you have ever read a better book.

Click to expand...

so you cant give special characteristics?

please list them. Im betting they arent special.
As stated before there is nothing great about the book.
Nothing special about its writings.
And structurally and poetically i have read better.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

ranma1/2 said:

so you cant give special characteristics?

please list them. Im betting they arent special.
As stated before there is nothing great about the book.
Nothing special about its writings.
And structurally and poetically i have read better.

Click to expand...

1. It is the only book ever written in that form of Arabic. Nobody else has been able to write one single comprehensible sentence in Qur'anic arabic.

2. Arabic is a very gutteral language and it is difficult to write any sensible paragraph, poem or song using words that make logical sense. Yet, the Qur'an carries a certain melody or sound quality throughout it's entirity and does not break down into gibberish.

3. Arabic has many dialects, It is difficult for the speaker of one dialect to understand the speaker of another. For example I speak a Moroccan Dialect, I can carry on conversations with people from Morocco, Algeria and Lybia fairly well. But I can not understand the Arabic spoken in Syria, Palestine, Egypt or Saudi Arabia. the miracle is all Arabic speaking people have no trouble understanding the spoken Qur'an, even the ones who are not Muslim. (Many Arabs are not Muslim)

4. It has been preserved completly. the Qur'an of today is identical of all past copies.

5. In spite of it's size Approximentaly 400 pages in normal font size. Millions of people have memorized it completly with no trouble. Even many 10 year olds have memorized it.

Nothing special about its writings.
And structurally and poetically i have read better

Click to expand...

Since you are certain that you have read better. it is safe to assume that you have read it. You are aware than that the Qur'an can not be written in English and can only be written in Arabic. since you are fluent in Arabic, I will be justified in answering your posts only in Arabic.

T'araf

Zahreet t'araf el maana deeal deek al kelma.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Thanks for a reply,

Woodrow said:

1. It is the only book ever written in that form of Arabic. Nobody else has been able to write one single comprehensible sentence in Qur'anic arabic.

2. Arabic is a very gutteral language and it is difficult to write any sensible paragraph, poem or song using words that make logical sense. Yet, the Qur'an carries a certain melody or sound quality throughout it's entirity and does not break down into gibberish.

3. Arabic has many dialects, It is difficult for the speaker of one dialect to understand the speaker of another. For example I speak a Moroccan Dialect, I can carry on conversations with people from Morocco, Algeria and Lybia fairly well. But I can not understand the Arabic spoken in Syria, Palestine, Egypt or Saudi Arabia. the miracle is all Arabic speaking people have no trouble understanding the spoken Qur'an, even the ones who are not Muslim. (Many Arabs are not Muslim)

4. It has been preserved completly. the Qur'an of today is identical of all past copies.

5. In spite of it's size Approximentaly 400 pages in normal font size. Millions of people have memorized it completly with no trouble. Even many 10 year olds have memorized it.



Since you are certain that you have read better. it is safe to assume that you have read it. You are aware than that the Qur'an can not be written in English and can only be written in Arabic. since you are fluent in Arabic, I will be justified in answering your posts only in Arabic.

T'araf

Zahreet t'araf el maana deeal deek al kelma.

Click to expand...

Edit; i typed this part earlier but the pc died on me..
1 i think god should have chosen a better language then.
2 hey give me 40 years to write something im sure i can write lymeric or two.
Nothing special about this.
3 see point 1 and god seems to ahve trouble getting everyone to agree on what it means.
4 ill agree that the current quran is the same as the oldest version available. before it was written though who knows. Still nothing special. its been preserved through human means only.
5 so? your pretty much required to do that. if we made kids memorize harry potter im sure they could. Still nothing special.


None of these are anything beyond human capablity. So nothing god like about i.

As for reading i never said i have read it in arabic. The fact that it can not be perfectly written in english seems to detract from it more. Surely a god could write it and present it so it cna translate perfectly.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

ranma1/2 said:

Thanks for a reply,


None of these are anything beyond human capablity. So nothing god like about i.

As for reading i never said i have read it in arabic. The fact that it can not be perfectly written in english seems to detract from it more. Surely a god could write it and present it so it cna translate perfectly.

Click to expand...

The issue of the Qu'ran being divinely inspired aside, I'm sure you would agree that when a work of literature, especially poetry, is translated into another language it loses its character to a large extent? The words do not flow in the same way. It is often difficult to find an appropriate word that completely captures the intent of a word in a different language. Theoretically, if God passed down a message to an Arabic speaker, that message would obviously be revealed in an Arabic script. Naturally, if one wishes to read the Qu'ran in the way in which it was intended to be read, it would have to be done in Arabic.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Keltoi said:

The issue of the Qu'ran being divinely inspired aside, I'm sure you would agree that when a work of literature, especially poetry, is translated into another language it loses its character to a large extent? The words do not flow in the same way. It is often difficult to find an appropriate word that completely captures the intent of a word in a different language. Theoretically, if God passed down a message to an Arabic speaker, that message would obviously be revealed in an Arabic script. Naturally, if one wishes to read the Qu'ran in the way in which it was intended to be read, it would have to be done in Arabic.

Click to expand...

I agree that a work will change. The point is if god wrote the book and supposedly divinly keeps it in its form then it should have no problem insuring that translation are also correct.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Ranma if you are sincere, can you tell me which book is superior to the Qur'an? Maybe we could compare and see if any book you suggest even comes close. Sorry if that's offensive, but I'm inclined to think you're just speculating without having knowledge.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Abdul Fattah said:

Ranma if you are sincere, can you tell me which book is superior to the Qur'an? Maybe we could compare and see if any book you suggest even comes close. Sorry if that's offensive, but I'm inclined to think you're just speculating without having knowledge.

Click to expand...

superior how?

well i could name a few.
Wheel of time series.
harry potter, the illiad.
the text of the GFSM.


of course its alll a matter of subjectiveness.

You still havent shown how your book is superior. Especially in a divine way.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Ansar Al-'Adl said:

I'll try to give you a comprehensive answer as to why the Qur'an is regarded the way it is by so many people.

1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:

-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.​

2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:

-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.​

3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:

-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text. As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.​

This is just my summary of the miraculous features Muslims find in the Qur'an. For more information, please see section 3c of The First and Final Commandment.

Click to expand...

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:
-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture

Hardly one big problem is that it can only be perfectly understood if you know Arabic, heck even with that you have to have scholars tell you what it means. Not to mention how it is not accepted by the majority of the world.

-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.


Once again hardly. It cant be established in society. That’s all ill say on that.
And what fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe?
It seems to say nothing about the creation “except god did it or similar answers.”


-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.

whats special about this if it did it. Not to mention it doesn’t do it well. It seems to have problems with sex, alcohol and many things. What does it say about global warming?


-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.

If this was so then I must be unnatural

-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.

Once again no it isn’t. It needs hadiths. You need scholars to tell you what it means not to mention again the need to speak or read Arabic.

-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.

So is harry potter, Hamlet, illiad, Japanese poems, etc… its interesting you mentioned that 1000s of exegesis expounding upon its meaning. I though you said it was clear and consistent.

2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:
-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.

Subjective opinion. Of course I assume you are referring to the Arabic versions as I have had no interactivity with the English ones. If only god could give me this Arabic knowledge since its so important..

-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.

False, well as false as a non muslim can show. First off we are not and never have been made from clay “unless you reject science” and that’s all ill say about this. Its been discussed and it amounts to we think your wrong and you think we need to read it right.


-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.

Wow so Harry potter is Holy. Heck I know 8 year olds that have memorized books longer than 400 pages. The fact is that you and others are instructed to memorize. Purely human intervention here.


3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:
-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.

Once again through human intervention. Nothing special.

-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text. As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.

Im not going to even bother with this one. It has been discussed many a time and simply put we disagree.

-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.

Um false again. Ive read it and I get that it was composed by humans.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Quite a lengthy reply ranma1/2. Since you did acknowledge you do not speak Arabic I will keep my replies to you in English.

It would be senseless for me to even begin to address your lengthy reply. I will agree you did base your reply on logic, to the degree you believe logic to be.

Logic is an excellent tool and can help us formulate rational explanations. It is also difficult to fully apply to all circumstances. Even logic has it's flaws, as it is limited to the facts we know and excludes the use of facts we do not know.

Science is also a very valuable tool for understanding. In it's simplest form science is observing and measuring. But, it also has it's limits as we can only measure that which we can detect and quantify. Measuring tools can only accuratly measure what they are designed to measure.

To limit oneself to the use of logic and science, is dogmatic as they become the only acceptable means of determining truth. It takes a lot of faith to have faith in the belief that all things can be quantified and qualified. You also have faith. You have faith that all of reality can be observed directly or indirectly and is measurable.

Now with that said, those of us who attest to being theists also work with logic and measurements. Our logic is based upon the knowledge that God(swt) exists. That is no less valid than your knowledge that the sun exists. We do have to use a different set of measuring devices and a different form of observational techniques. But, what we use are just as much measuring devices and observation tools as scales, rulers, spectroscopes and microscopes. Remember, a tool can only measure what it is designed to measure and observe what it is designed to measure.

There is no way you could accept any statements about the Qur'an unless you know how to use and understand the methodology and measurement system that needs to be used to Qualify and quantify it.

Peace be with you and remember, you have the freedom to believe as you do.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Ranma you can deny all these features and look for alternative explenations, but the point is no book in the world comes even close. Are there people claiming Harry potter's books witness of scientific knowledge that was not known to mankind at the time of it's origin? Sure it has bee debated a lot, but so far no serious refutations have been brought. So to ignore it just because it has been "debated" is just closing your eyes.

Does the wheel of time serve as a guide for millions of people by showing them how to live their lives and has the impact of making some of the most hardest toughest people fall in their knees in tears and turn them into caring soft people?

Is the GFSM writen in poetical rhyme? In such a way that if you change only a single word from it that it can only decrease in strenght and meaning without having to result to off-topic and ranting for the purpose of maintaining rhyme?

Again, if your serious in comparing those books, you 'll see that none of them can balance all these characteristics to the same degree as the Qur'an. If you want to deny that the Qur'an is divine, go ahead, that is faith related, and I will agree to disagree. But what you are doing now, blindly ignoring it's characteristics is just stupid.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Abdul Fattah said:

Ranma if you are sincere, can you tell me which book is superior to the Qur'an? Maybe we could compare and see if any book you suggest even comes close. Sorry if that's offensive, but I'm inclined to think you're just speculating without having knowledge.

Click to expand...

I have mentioned several in my previous post, but to refresh, Id say the Divine Comedy is superior to the Qur'an in all fields of importance.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

lol divine comedy was actually stolen from Islamic literature, if you'd do some reading, you'd have already learned so, he'd be sued for plagiarism .. the irony is the ba$tard steals from us only to put Muslims in hell... never saw your old post, but glad I have the opportunity to point it out in this one...

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

PurestAmbrosia said:

lol divine comedy was actually stolen from Islamic literature, if you'd do some reading, you'd have already learned so, he'd be sued for plagiarism .. the irony is the ba$tard steals from us only to put Muslims in hell... never saw your old post, but glad I have the opportunity to point it out in this one...

Click to expand...

If your referring to the 7 layers...Muhammed "stole it" from Paul, Paul "stole it" from Zorasterism. If history wasn't so flaky back then, Im sure youd find the the "stealing" goes even further. No matter. Its still a fine piece of literature with a unique style of poetry and perhaps the best form of Christian apologetics and philosophy. Hell, I were the pope, id replace the bible with it lol

Sry, forgot to mention, Paul stole ir from the romans, who stole the idea from the greeks, who stole it from Zorastraism.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Isambard said:

I have mentioned several in my previous post, but to refresh, Id say the Divine Comedy is superior to the Qur'an in all fields of importance.

Click to expand...

Hi Islambard
I'm glad to see someone has taken this argument serious instead of just listing fantasy books for children (yes ranma, that description includes gfsm).

So, Divine comedy. vs Qur'an. I'll try to be fair.

• Both are poetic in nature.
  Divine comedy uses ABA BCB CDC ...
  The Qur'an uses a large numer of different poetic styles not only rhymes but using rythms to accentuate and using rhymes that match not only vocal but also in meaning. Take Al-Asr for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-H73PD1aq8
  (videolink takes 26 sec, shortest surah of the Qur'an with english translation))
  
• Both have religious content.
  Devine comedy is basically a very detailed description of what the afterlife looks like, next to that it also has some political messages (limited to politics of Dante's time)
  The Qur'an on the other hands is much richer giving a description of the hereafter giving out detail only where it is required and leaving it out where it adds no value, but also a description of the different classes of mankind. How to recognize a firm believer, what some of the mistakes of the hypocrite are. With numerous stories that show important messages on how to live ones life. With different descriptions of what the difference is between a believer and a disbeliever; and so on... The Qur'an changed the face of the earth and leads millions of people by it's religious content. I never heard of a serious group of "Danteists".
  
• Only one of them has miraculous characteristics.
  The Qur'an has by giving prediction that actually came true and by giving descriptions that later were found corrrect. Example on the expansion of the universe:
  And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)
  Note that the Arabic word used here is: [ سماء] heaven/firmament.
  It does not mean the heaven of the afterlife which is called: jannah [جنة ] in Arabic. So it does refer to the universe and not to some metaphysical place.
  
• Both have mathematical codes.
  In the divine comedy there's constantly references of three, and multitudes of three. Verses are rhymed by three, there' are 9 spheres of each destination, there's 33 verses in each cantus and there are three destinations.
  In the Qur'an there also seems to be a hidden mathematical code embedded but here the number is 19, not 3.
  http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_03.html
  Next to this code there's also the word repetitions:
  http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/mathematical_01.html
  Example:
  The word "land" appears 13 times in the Qur'an and the word "sea" 32 times, giving a total of 45 references. If we divide that number by that of the number of references to the land we arrive at the figure 28.888888888889%. The number of total references to land and sea, 45, divided by the number of references to the sea in the Qur'an, 32, is 71.111111111111%. Extraordinarily, these figures represent the exact proportions of land and sea on the Earth today.
  
• Source
  The prophet peace be upon him was illiterate and didn't receive schooling. Yet he brought us the Qur'an.
  As for Dante's source, here's an interesting copy paste from wikipedia:
  In 1919 Professor Miguel Asín Palacios, a Spanish scholar and a Catholic priest, published La Escatología musulmana en la Divina Comedia ("Islamic Eschatology and the Divine Comedy"). This was an account, compiled after years of extensive study, of parallels Asín Palacios had discovered between Islamic philosophy and the eschatology of the Divine Comedy. The perceived similarities pervade the entire poem. Asín Palacios concluded that Dante derived most of the features of and episodes about the hereafter from two main sources: the Hadith and the Kitab al Miraj (translated into Latin in 1264 or shortly before[3] as Liber Scale Machometi ["The Book of Muhammad's Ladder"]) concerning the Prophet's ascension to Heaven, and the spiritual writings of Ibn Arabi. The Divine Comedy was therefore not, in Asín Palacios's opinion, an entirely original work—as had been heretofore assumed—since Dante had before him a ready-made pattern based on Islamic writings on the afterlife. (This would be particularly ironic if true, in light of the fact that in Canto XXVIII of the Inferno Dante consigned the Islamic supreme prophet Muhammad to the eighth circle of hell, as a "seminator di scandalo e di scisma"—a "sower of scandal and schism"—in line with Catholic dogma regarding Islam, as evidenced by the title of the first Latin translation of the Qu'ran: Lex Mahumet pseudoprophete.)

I think it's fair to say that although there might be some skin deep similarities, that divine comedy simply doesn't cut the mustard, especially not if you're looking at the core of the two books. But I'm of course open to listen to any arguments you would like to add here.

Re: A question on faith (for atheists)

Abdul Fattah said:

Ranma you can deny all these features and look for alternative explenations, but the point is no book in the world comes even close. Are there people claiming Harry potter's books witness of scientific knowledge that was not known to mankind at the time of it's origin? Sure it has bee debated a lot, but so far no serious refutations have been brought. So to ignore it just because it has been "debated" is just closing your eyes.

Does the wheel of time serve as a guide for millions of people by showing them how to live their lives and has the impact of making some of the most hardest toughest people fall in their knees in tears and turn them into caring soft people?

Is the GFSM writen in poetical rhyme? In such a way that if you change only a single word from it that it can only decrease in strenght and meaning without having to result to off-topic and ranting for the purpose of maintaining rhyme?

Again, if your serious in comparing those books, you 'll see that none of them can balance all these characteristics to the same degree as the Qur'an. If you want to deny that the Qur'an is divine, go ahead, that is faith related, and I will agree to disagree. But what you are doing now, blindly ignoring it's characteristics is just stupid.

Click to expand...

the point is that all of these features are not in the quran or subjective opinons. I refuted many of your characteristics. For poetry i would just about any doctor sues book. Heck those often have great morals stories to.