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kadafi
09-08-2005, 06:08 PM
:sl:

An extract from Usool al-Deen al-Islami by Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem al-Tuwayjri posted at islamqa states:

When he saw how stubborn they were and how the signs of kufr were manifest among them, he stood among his people, saying, Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allaah? The disciples believed in him, and their number was twelve.


And the following ayahs are cited:
“Then when ‘Eesa (Jesus) came to know of their disbelief, he said: ‘Who will be my helpers in Allaah’s Cause?’ Al-Hawaariyyoon (the disciples) said: ‘We are the helpers of Allaah; we believe in Allaah, and bear witness that we are Muslims (i.e. we submit to Allaah).’

Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger [‘Eesa (Jesus)]; so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth, i.e. Laa ilaaha illallaah — none has the right to be worshipped but Allaah)”[Aal ‘Imraan 3:52-53]
However, none of the ayahs speaks about the total number of the disciples. Moreover, the number might have been mentioned by the Prophet but it's not cited in the excerpt nor did I ever came across that hadeeth.

Does anyone know the evidence where that number is derived from?

Oddly enough, the Bible also mentions twelve disciples.

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
09-08-2005, 07:34 PM
:sl:
Interesting question, Br. Kadafi!

Because its mentioned in the Bible, that's most likely the source of this interpretation -Israeliyyat (Biblical traditions) as they're called. If I come across anything, inshaa'Allah I'll post it.

:w:
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kadafi
09-08-2005, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl:
Interesting question, Br. Kadafi!

Because its mentioned in the Bible, that's most likely the source of this interpretation -Israeliyyat (Biblical traditions) as they're called. If I come across anything, inshaa'Allah I'll post it.

:w:
:w:

Israeliyat is Jewish folkore and cannot be the source. Furthermore, Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem al-Tuwayjri wouldn't rely on unauthenthic source[s].

It has to be based on a hadeeth since they're not mentioned in the Glorious Qur'aan.

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
09-08-2005, 08:35 PM
:sl: :brother:
Originally Posted by kadafi
Israeliyat is Jewish folkore and cannot be the source.
My point was that there may have been alleged hadith chains for the reports in the books of tafsir, but if they were found to all be fabricated and weak, then ultimately the source would be the biblical traditions.

Furthermore, Shaykh Muhammad ibn Ibraaheem al-Tuwayjri wouldn't rely on unauthenthic source[s].
Well, I found it mentioned in Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, who simply says, wa kaanu ithna ashar rajul, that they were twelve men but I haven't seen any hadith cited for that.

perhaps you might find something here:
http://www.reciter.org/tafseer.html?t=TABARY&v=003052
:w:
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kadafi
09-08-2005, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
:sl: :brother:

My point was that there may have been alleged hadith chains for the reports in the books of tafsir, but if they were found to all be fabricated and weak, then ultimately the source would be the biblical traditions.
:sl:

That's true for tafseer such as at-tabari which are riddled with biblical folklore

Well, I found it mentioned in Tafsir Al-Qurtubi, who simply says, wa kaanu ithna ashar rajul, that they were twelve men but I haven't seen any hadith cited for that.
The tafseer of Qurtubi mentions that and basically has the same statement as the tafseer of ibn Katheer [regarding the definition of hawariyoon and why they're named like that.

perhaps you might find something here:
http://www.reciter.org/tafseer.html?t=TABARY&v=003052
:w:
That's quite long lol. I have managed to translate the first half [need to improve my arabic skills :)] and stopped there because at tabari cites many stories regarding Isa ibn Maryam that are not found in ahadeeth such as the miracles he performed (water into wine, etc) in more details . My guess would be that since Tabari never authenticated the reports that he received and just mentioned the narrators, the best guess is that these reports are based on Christian accounts and hence why they never are mentioned by the later generation.

But atleast the [12 disciples] has been mentioned by Qurtubi 'cause as far as I know, Qurtubi didn't include any weak traditions/reports.

:w:
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