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ummzayd
10-27-2007, 08:47 AM
Peace to all

There's some things I am curious about.

1. what was your motiviation for joining this board, and what keeps you coming back? (honest answers please, as befits a practising Christian).

2. are there any Christian boards similar to this, where Muslims are welcome to participate, ask questions, and debate about both Islam and Christianity?

I would appreciate any answers.

kind regards and peace to all
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Woodrow
11-02-2007, 11:22 AM
Thread Approved
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Malaikah
11-02-2007, 11:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ummzayd
2. are there any Christian boards similar to this, where Muslims are welcome to participate, ask questions, and debate about both Islam and Christianity?
:sl:

I hope you don't mind me posting... I started a thread about that and was not able to find a good forum. The forum I sis join was way less tolerant than LI. Even when all I did was refute false claims they had made about Islam, I was told of for promoting my religion!

I came to realise that LI is one of those rare finds.
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Pygoscelis
11-02-2007, 01:57 PM
I'm also not a christian, but I do visit some christian boards. And I've had a similar experience to the above. Muslims are given that whole "rabid terrorist" sterotype and often not allowed to speak or write long enough for that slander to be exposed for what it is.

I must say on those boards I find myself defending muslims and islam a lot more than I ever imagined I would. SImply being an outsider and seeing the vitrol that is thrown at some groups makes you want to leap to their defence, even if you're not one of them and wouldn't normally support them. its a really odd phenomenon. Being an atheist I too belong to a "category" of people many of these boards love to hate and purposefully misunderstand so it makes me feel some kind of kinship with the muslims on those boards and chat programs.
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Grace Seeker
11-02-2007, 08:30 PM
2nd question first. I participate in the following other boards:

Catholic Answer Forums -- I have met some Muslims on this forum. But I do not think I would recommend it. It would be a good place to learn what Catholics believe, and while the forum administrators seems very tolerant of all manner of questions and comments, the participants themselves are a more conservative type of Catholic than I meet in day-to-day existence and are less tolerant of other ideas of attacking Protestantism, Mormonism, and particularly Islam with strawmen characitures. You get some of that with certain posters here on LI, but thankfully that is not the dominant response.

Christian Forums, is undergoing a transition. It was established as a Christian Forum, but it became open to all varieties of ideologies, many decidedly non-Chrsitian. Many Christians actually left the forum for that reason, as they often felt attacked by non-Christians on what they thought was a place for Christians to come together and talk. I, myself, have rarely participated in the larger forum community there, preferring to stay within a subform group located within it (Wesley's Parish) that is designed specifically for United Methodists, Nazarenes, and others that have our roots in the teachings of John Wesley. We rarely have even Christians of other denominations visit that sub-forum and so hardly ever have any conflict within it, as it is not a group that debates much. On the rest of the forum there are many debates of all types. I think a Muslim could post there, but would face the same type of response that a Christian would here who would say that the Qu'ran was not a message from Allah to Muhammed.

I also participate in Youth Ministry Exchange -- this one is designed to be a place where folks involved in youth ministry can come and converse with one another about a whole range of topics. So, of course, some theological discussion take place there. But mostly it is about practical and personal issues. Anyone can join, there is a subscription fee, and not everyone who is a part is a Christian, let alone a youth worker. But that calling is how the board began and what it continues to center around. I believe that anyone who came there and showed respect for the others with whom they were debating would be well received. Those who came just to stir up trouble, to troll, or otherwise create dissension would find themselves quickly ostracize regardless of theological views. We have only a few theological debates, but all manner of political ones. They can get heated, but we try to remain free from attacking the person. One of the former owners of the forum was recently kicked off for violating that spirit.


Now, as to why I am here. I came because I have a love for Muslim people and an interest in being sure that I correctly understand Islam -- not just as a static book, but as a living faith by knowing and learnig from the people who practice it. My motivation for that is that I have a daughter who is Muslim. One day, in the above forum, some people were speaking poorly of Islam speaking in ways that I took to be falsely characterizing the religion as a whole as violent. They specificially put to me questions about why Muslims were not speaking out against some recent violent acts done by a man who claimed to do them in the name of Islam. Well, I knew that those acts did not truly represent Islam, but I also didn't have much to say in response. So, I came here to learn more so that I could answer those who were objecting. I have stayed because I enjoy the intellectual stimulation provided by those who challenge my beliefs, or who ask questions about Christianity that I might be able to answer. I find so many operating under preconceptions as to what Christianity is, what the major tenets of the Christian faith are and with other characterizations of the Christians faith that just are not true to my experience that where I can provide a different response than perhaps the stereotypical response, I am glad to stay and be a part of that continuing discussion.
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Isambard
11-02-2007, 09:05 PM
I remember the Catholic forum and all I can say is wow....that place is simply nasty to any non-catholics (let alone christians).

Christian forums is pretty good. The non-christian section seem to be Islam vs. Christians but at least there is equal participation and everyone debate forum on there is alot more open.

So thats my recommendation :D
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Keltoi
11-02-2007, 11:22 PM
This is actually the only forum I participate in. Found it by accident and after reading a few posts as a guest I signed up. I just like the overall layout of the site and it seems to attract interesting people from all walks of life.
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jouju
11-03-2007, 05:52 PM
good question
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Jayda
11-07-2007, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ummzayd
Peace to all

There's some things I am curious about.

1. what was your motiviation for joining this board, and what keeps you coming back? (honest answers please, as befits a practising Christian).

2. are there any Christian boards similar to this, where Muslims are welcome to participate, ask questions, and debate about both Islam and Christianity?

I would appreciate any answers.

kind regards and peace to all
hola ummzayd,

my name is annette, it is nice to make your acquaintance. gracias for your questions... in regards to your first question, curiosity prompted me to join, along with some questions which i rarely have the opportunity to ask... since (i hope to put this delicately as possible) responding to many of the misconceptions muslims here hold about christianity has held my attention longer and subsequently remains the biggest reason i stay.

with regards to your second question, there are many internet forums, i suppose foru.ms is the one i like the most. there are many places there where you can ask questions or discuss, one section is called 'questions from non christians' and another is called 'ask a pastor.' there is a more polemical section called non christian religions which is largely a polemical insult forum between christians and muslims (primarily), you might find that part of the forum hostile.

there are two million members though so it is difficult to say anything in general about the place. there is a no promotion of non christian religions rule, and there are rules that bar people from making slanderous or flamming posts about other non christian religions.

que Dios te bendiga
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sojourner
11-08-2007, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ummzayd
Peace to all

There's some things I am curious about.

1. what was your motiviation for joining this board, and what keeps you coming back? (honest answers please, as befits a practising Christian).

2. are there any Christian boards similar to this, where Muslims are welcome to participate, ask questions, and debate about both Islam and Christianity?

I would appreciate any answers.

kind regards and peace to all
1. I came here as a Christian and it was to learn about Islam from Muslims rather than have to rely on outside sources.
2. I do know of some Christian boards from the Baptist faith, but Muslims are not really invited or welcomed without conflict or an attempt to convert.
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Grace Seeker
11-09-2007, 03:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sojourner
1. I came here as a Christian and it was to learn about Islam from Muslims rather than have to rely on outside sources.
2. I do know of some Christian boards from the Baptist faith, but Muslims are not really invited or welcomed without conflict or an attempt to convert.

I understand that you are on a faith journey, as I think we all are, so I don't want to disrespect either you nor the place that you are at right now. But I would like to ask a question.

A few months ago you made a wonderful statement that really resonates with me:
36 years of believing that Jesus did die on the cross and rose from the dead 3 days later keeps me from accepting Islam.

Do you now disregard all of that as having been a lie? Something manufactured by disciples who, even knowing that it was a made up story, still laid down their lives to tell it to others?
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namr777
11-09-2007, 07:00 AM
I truly smile to see Christians and other religions or atheists that come to this Muslim forum... I'm hypothesizing here, but i truly believe that Allah prefers you to a point, where he brought you amongst the Muslim... Maybe one day you'll read something in here and the epiphany of your lives may just happen.... Keep your searches alive! and may god guide you ;^)...
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sojourner
11-09-2007, 03:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I understand that you are on a faith journey, as I think we all are, so I don't want to disrespect either you nor the place that you are at right now. But I would like to ask a question.

A few months ago you made a wonderful statement that really resonates with me:
36 years of believing that Jesus did die on the cross and rose from the dead 3 days later keeps me from accepting Islam.

Do you now disregard all of that as having been a lie? Something manufactured by disciples who, even knowing that it was a made up story, still laid down their lives to tell it to others?
I don't know what i consider it to be honest, and it is something that i am still dealing with and probably will as long as God allows me to walk this earth.
I just came to the point of realizing that if Islam is true and Muhammad (PBuH) is a prophet, then i must have the faith to believe what God has revealed to him.
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Jayda
11-09-2007, 03:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sojourner
I don't know what i consider it to be honest, and it is something that i am still dealing with and probably will as long as God allows me to walk this earth.
I just came to the point of realizing that if Islam is true and Muhammad (PBuH) is a prophet, then i must have the faith to believe what God has revealed to him.

hola

i hope you don't mind my observation... but the converse of that bottom statement is true for me. if Christianity is true and Christ is Lord then i must have the faith to believe what is revealed through Him... i would think that is the same for any Christian, which is why we do not regard the claims of mohamed as true...

so how do you reconcile believing (to some extent) that Christ died and rose from the dead, with the belief that mohamed is a prophet when he said this did not happen? it is kind of a difficult dichotomy i would imagine... or do you consider whatever lingering belief in Christianity to be some kind of natural (but false) psychological imprint due to time and the way you were raised, that you need to take an active role in abandoning? it does not sound like you believe this will go away with time if it is something you believe you will always struggle with...

que Dios te bendiga
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Grace Seeker
11-10-2007, 10:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sojourner
I just came to the point of realizing that if Islam is true and Muhammad (PBuH) is a prophet, then i must have the faith to believe what God has revealed to him.
Obviously you are correct. If Islam is true, and if Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet, then you must believe what he claims to have received from God. For me, believing that Jesus did indeed die on the cross and that he did indeed rise again from the grave, and that the disciples were not liars but simply passing on what they experienced and was revealed to them by God and Jesus himself, in the light of all of that, I don't have any trouble answering the question as to whether or not one who claims that it was revealed to him that Jesus never died on a cross (a message no other living person ever heard to confirm), if that message is true or not.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't investigate it. I have. I just know that my investigation has left me more firm in my Christian faith than ever before. I serve the God who gave his life for me on a cross that I might live with him forever.
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Umar001
11-10-2007, 10:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Do you now disregard all of that as having been a lie? Something manufactured by disciples who, even knowing that it was a made up story, still laid down their lives to tell it to others?
Howdy, long time no speak,

I didn't want to jump in, but please start a thread or something with a discussion on the following, some points which perplex me.

I think we have spoken a bit about the possible authors of the Gospels, I don't remember it ending properly, or it being much of a discussion, I think it mainly fizzled out under the broad topic of threads. So I'd like some reasons why you truly feel the apostles wrote the Gospels and why that is a more probable position than any other.

Also please cite some evidence for the death of any of the disciples of Jesus, which can be said to be historically probable.

See Basics in Christianity Thread for the discussion
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Walter
11-13-2007, 02:11 PM
Hi Everyone:

As I was reading through the first page of this thread I looked forward to responding, then it went completely off topic. My posting on page two now seems to be the off-topic one. Did not Al Habeshi state:
I didn't want to jump in, but please start a thread or something with a discussion on the following, some points which perplex me.
Why did you not hearken?

Ummzayd asked:
1. what was your motivation for joining this board, and what keeps you coming back? (honest answers please, as befits a practising Christian).
I read the Qu’ran after reading the Bible several times, and I saw a few contentious verses and realised that they could be interpreted to either be in harmony with the Bible or to be in conflict. As you are probably aware, there are several denominations or sects within Christianity. These sects exist because someone convinced a set of people that their interpretation of certain verses in the Bible was correct and the others were incorrect. I am sure that if the people would simply read the Bible for themselves, and discuss the contentious verses honestly with the goal of knowing the truth and not defending their sect’s position, all of the doctrinal differences would disappear.

Few people want to examine evidence, and instead prefer to be lead by those whom they trust. That is an efficient approach provided that the teacher is correct. However, the follower risks being misled. Most evolutionists are like that. They much prefer to be misled by their teachers rather than honestly looking at the evidence to learn the truth.

My motivation therefore was to see whether Muslims had allowed their Islamic traditional beliefs to cause them to refuse to examine the teachings in the Qu’ran.

The second question was:
2. are there any Christian boards similar to this, where Muslims are welcome to participate, ask questions, and debate about both Islam and Christianity?
I have found none.

Regards,
Grenville
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Grace Seeker
11-13-2007, 02:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Everyone:
Why did you not hearken?
Why?
Because it was just too interesting and intriguing to not jump in right now. :D
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ummzayd
11-16-2007, 09:25 PM
:sl:

hi all, thanks to everyone who replied, I was genuinely curious. I have come across Christians elsewhere who feel they have a 'special mission' to 'reach out' to Muslims and who get a bit cross and resort to thinly-veiled insults when their overtures are politely declined. whereas on LI I have to say that for the most part the Christian (& few Jewish) members are courteous and well mannered masha'Allah and there are some interesting discussions.

Wanting to correct some misconceptions which Muslims may have about Christianity is a very good reason for Christians to come here, and even better (from my point of view) is to learn about Islam in order to correct one's own misconceptions about Islam and Muslims. It's not good to be ignorant about other faiths if it is something you like to discuss with people, and that applies equally to Muslims and Christians.

I asked about other inter-faith message boards only because I was curious as to whether they existed, not because I wanted to join them. Personally I don't feel inspired to go around the net debating with people but I guess if anyone has the spiritual zeal to take that on, well fair play to them! Whatever their faith (provided they truly do respect others' God-given right to follow the path of their choosing whether it is right or wrong).

anyway seems to me that LI is fairly unique, masha'Allah.

peace
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Grace Seeker
11-16-2007, 09:40 PM
Good thoughts, Ummzayd.



format_quote Originally Posted by Al Habeshi
See Basics in Christianity Thread for the discussion
I looked for this thread, but couldn't find it. Do you have a link?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

edit: Have since found it.
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MustafaMc
11-25-2007, 08:15 PM
How were the details regarding the Temptation of Jesus (alone in the wilderness), his Gethsemane Prayer (disciples asleep) and the Trial of Jesus (disciples fled) conveyed to the gospel authors?
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Grace Seeker
11-26-2007, 04:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
How were the details regarding the Temptation of Jesus (alone in the wilderness), his Gethsemane Prayer (disciples asleep) and the Trial of Jesus (disciples fled) conveyed to the gospel authors?

Any answer would be pure speculation. But these and a few others are events recorded in the Gospel narrative for which there are no apparent eye-witnessess and certainly for which no Gospel writer was present. But I think we can suggest that Jesus himself might have later told his disciples about these experiences. I certainly don't believe that every conversation that Jesus had with his disiciples is recorded in the scripture. We can see from the much more detailed account of the passover supper in the Upper Room provided in John's Gospel that is not including in Matthew, Mark, or Luke's more condensed telling of that event that each writer selected what to include for the account he was creating, and hence also what to exclude. I am quite certain that Jesus told jokes and other stories that are completely lost to history. During times like this Jesus could have also shared the experiences you speak of. On top of that, I don't count the Holy Spirit out as a possible source of inspiration of things that the Gospel writers might not have known about from any one else.
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Esther462
11-28-2007, 08:41 PM
When I joined this board, I was Christian. I was asking questions about on how to converted to Islam on the BBC message board. There is too much bicering on there:argue:. I wanted to find out about Islam.
Now I am Muslim now. I find that the answers are loads better and there is no bicering on here.:sunny:
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MustafaMc
11-29-2007, 03:12 AM
What I am hearing lately is a largely human origin for the NT. This is in stark contrast to what I was taught growing up as a Baptist about it being either the inspired or literal Word of God. I doubt that many Protestants in southern USA would agree with these latest posts.
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Grace Seeker
11-29-2007, 03:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
What I am hearing lately is a largely human origin for the NT. This is in stark contrast to what I was taught growing up as a Baptist about it being either the inspired or literal Word of God. I doubt that many Protestants in southern USA would agree with these latest posts.
Divine inspiration does not rule out human agency, nor vice versa. As far as "literal Word", I'm sure that you are right, but I've expressed myself on this already, and doubt that many who would claim to be literalists really are as much as they think they are.
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MustafaMc
11-29-2007, 03:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Divine inspiration does not rule out human agency, nor vice versa. As far as "literal Word", I'm sure that you are right, but I've expressed myself on this already, and doubt that many who would claim to be literalists really are as much as they think they are.
Yes, you have expressed this point of view before, but I am surprised to see it shared by other Christians.

How can one establish the authenticity of claimed Divine inspiration? Were the commandments given to Moses inspired or were they literal Words of God? What about Jesus' Sermon on the Mount? What about Paul's letter to the Church at Galatia? How does one establish the Divine inspiration for Revelations?
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Grace Seeker
11-29-2007, 04:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Yes, you have expressed this point of view before, but I am surprised to see it shared by other Christians.
What? Did you think I was a flake living in my own little world? :nervous:
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MustafaMc
11-30-2007, 12:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Divine inspiration does not rule out human agency, nor vice versa.
Of course there must be human agency, but how does one establish the Divine inspiration part? Honestly, some of your and Keltoi's posts here seem to be more "inspired" than much of the NT.
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Grace Seeker
11-30-2007, 01:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Of course there must be human agency, but how does one establish the Divine inspiration part? Honestly, some of your and Keltoi's posts here seem to be more "inspired" than much of the NT.
Perhaps they are equally inspired, but not being a standard for faith and practice they aren't worthy of being included in the canon of scripture.

Also, as Jayda has pointed out, if not here, then elsewhere recently, there is the connection to an apostle that is hard for either of us to claim, though I do know quite a few people named Peter, James and John.
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chosen
11-30-2007, 02:35 PM
Honest answer..I am intriqued by the roles one religion plays in the day to day decisions people make as well as their political views..I am of the firm belief that most people are basically the same..I like to look for common ground and try to understand the differences between faiths..
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MustafaMc
12-01-2007, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
Perhaps they are equally inspired, but not being a standard for faith and practice they aren't worthy of being included in the canon of scripture.
How was this "standard" of acceptability established by the churches and finalized at the Council of Hippo?

http://www.biblicaltheology.com/Rese...rtinezR01.html
According to Glenn Davis, “Saint Athanasius, theologian, ecclesiastical statesman, and Egyptian national leader, was the chief defender of Christian orthodoxy in the 4th-century battle against Arianism, the heresy that the Son of God was a creature of like, but not of the same, substance as God the Father. Athanasius attended the Council of Nicaea (325) and shortly thereafter became bishop of Alexandria (328).”24 In AD 367, Bishop Athanasius wrote a letter to his churches to announce the date of Easter. Apparently this was a letter in which he wrote yearly, in order to remind his churches of the date of Easter. What is unique about this letter is that, he formally lists all of the New Testament books that make-up our present NT canon. His list of twenty-seven NT books was intended to serve as a guide to his churches, so that they would know what books were acceptable and which ones were not. .... What is important about his “39th Festal Letter," written in AD367, is that not only does his list of twenty-seven books appear in our New Testament, but that from this point forward, these books begin to take on a new meaning within the Church. In essence, the twenty-seven books are promulgated throughout the known world as sacred scripture; which means that all other books whether written afore or after, are to take second place to the twenty-seven books that make up the New Testament. Thus, this manifested itself in full-fruition at the Council of Hippo in AD 393, where the Church (ekklesia) ‘officially accepts’ and recognizes the corpus of the New Testament canon as sacred scripture. It should be stated, however, that there were other preceding councils that list the NT books, but it was the council at Hippo that officially recognized our present NT canon. Hence, as Glenn Davis remarks, “the first council that accepted the present New Testament canon was the Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa (393 CE).”

It seems to me that Bishop Athanasius was instrumental in establishing the "canon of scripture" and all scriptures that supported the Arian view were likely destroyed after the Council of Nicea.

The teachings of Arius were clearly monotheistic.
http://www.tecmalta.org/tft340.htm
His teaching was that the Father alone is God. The Logos or Son, Arius maintained, was a created being - formed out of nothing by the Father before the universe was made. He therefore said that there was a time when the Son had not existed.

According to Arius, the Son was the first and greatest of all that God had created; He was closer to God than all others, and the rest of creation related to God through the Son (for instance, God had created everything else through Christ).

By developing this arch-heresy, Arius thought he was defending the fundamental truth that there is only one God - monotheism. A belief in the full deity of Christ, he supposed, would mean the Father and Son were two separate Gods, which contradicted the many statements of the Bible about God’s oneness.

Arius was also unhappy with Origen’s idea that there could be ‘degrees’ or ‘grades’ of divinity, with the Son being slightly less divine than the Father (this became known after the Nicene Council as semi-Arianism).

Arius argued that since the Father is clearly God, it follows that the Son could not be God - so He must be a created being.

Arius' point of view was strongly similar to Muslim points of view put forward on this forum.
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Grace Seeker
12-01-2007, 08:34 PM
I'm not sure I understand the question. I think I've addressed this before, so I suspect that you are asking something different than what I am picking up on. Maybe if you asked it a slightly different way I would have a better idea how to respond.
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MustafaMc
12-01-2007, 09:00 PM
How was the inspiration by the Holy Spirit of various writings determined such that the 27 books were canonized? Except for Revelations the books of the NT seem to be of human origin.
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Grace Seeker
12-02-2007, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MustafaMc
How was the inspiration by the Holy Spirit of various writings determined such that the 27 books were canonized? Except for Revelations the books of the NT seem to be of human origin.

Sorry, I really don't know. All I know is that even before Athanasius made his list, that 100 years before him that others were using the same basic list. If you take a look at the various lists that are known:

In the first century there wasn't really any sense of a need to set aside certain books as canonical and others as non-canonical. The scriptures were the books inherited through the Church's roots in Judaism. Most specifically, they were the Greek verision of the Hebrew Tanakah known as the Septuagint. To that, we can see that other writings became accepted for use in the church as well 2 Peter 3:14-16 gives a rare glimpse of this:
So, my dear friends, since this is what you have to look forward to, do your very best to be found living at your best, in purity and peace. Interpret our Master's patient restraint for what it is: salvation. Our good brother Paul, who was given much wisdom in these matters, refers to this in all his letters, and has written you essentially the same thing. Some things Paul writes are difficult to understand. Irresponsible people who don't know what they are talking about twist them every which way. They do it to the rest of the Scriptures, too, destroying themselves as they do it. (The Message)
So, at least in some churches, Paul's writings were already accepted on par with the rest of scripture. One of the earliest church Fathers, Clement of Rome, regularly used the Letter to the Hebrews, and pretty much every other book that has made it into our canon.

The New Testament used in the church at Rome in 200 AD (known as the Muratroian Canon) included:
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, James, 1 & 2 John, Jude, the Revelation of John, and 2 books that would NOT be included in the canon used today the Revelation of Peter and the Wisdom of Solomon. They also used the Shepherd of Hermas, in private but not in public worship.

The New Testament used by Origen in 250 AD included:
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Philemon, 1 Peter, 1 John, and the Revelation of John. Origen also used, but did not consider canonical Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, Jude, the Shepherd of Hermas, the Letter of Barnabas (NOT the Gospel of Barnabas that some Muslims like to quote), the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (also known as the Didache), and the Gospel of the Hebrews.

The New Testament used by church historian Eusebius in 300 AD included:
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon, 1 Peter, 1 John, the Revelation of John. Eusebius also used but did not consider canonical James, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, and Jude. And Eusebius specifically said that the following should NOT be part of the canon, even though they were worth reading for other purposes: the Shepherd of Hermas, the Letter of Barnabas, the Gospel of the Hebrews (this is different than the Letter to the Hebrews which is in the Bible today and which Eusebius did not comment on at all), the Revelation of Peter, the Acts of Peter, and the Didache.

But it wasn't Nicea as some like to suggest, nor Hippo, that set the canon, it was the Council of Carthage in 397 AD. Interestingly, in the eastern part of the church the Syrian church continued to use Tatian's Diatessaron -- a harmony of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- instead of the four separate Gospels. Later the Syrian church also rejected Revelation and demoted the general letters of Peter and John. All were restored, but not till the mid-sixth century.

As to exactly how the Holy Spirit orchestrated all of this, I don't think any one can say. I can't explain how it is that the Holy Spirit speaks to me today when he does. But I know that sometimes he has done this as well. So, if I can't explain my own personal experience of it, I don't think that I am going to be able to explain to you or anyone else how he did that in the lives a a whole lot of different people nearly 1600-1800 years ago. But I do trust that he was speaking to them just like he still leads me today, and that in doing so he worked with them till the church got it right, or at least got what it needed to get, maybe that is a better way of saying it than that they got it right, because that would be like saying nothing else was of God and I don't believe that books like the Shepherd of Hermas or the Letter of Barnabas are of the devil; they may in fact be inspired as well. I just don't think that they are meant to be part of that which is set aside as the standard for faith and practice. As to why some of what is in there (2 & 3 John come to my mind) is included, I don't really have an answer for that either. But that is just a witness to my lacking, not any problem with scripture.
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MustafaMc
12-02-2007, 01:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
As to exactly how the Holy Spirit orchestrated all of this, I don't think any one can say. I can't explain how it is that the Holy Spirit speaks to me today when he does. But I know that sometimes he has done this as well.
Thank you for your patience and for the honest and informative post.
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