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islam19241924
11-14-2007, 11:47 PM
:sl: brothers and sisters

During the time of the messenger prophet Muhammad (saw) the quraish said that the Quran was not the word of Allah (swt) but that of Mohammed's (saw) words or a christian person called jabr. Allah then sent the revelation challenging the qurash to write 10 surahs like the Quran then a revelation after challenging them to write 1 surah like the Quran. They couldnt achieve this even though the shortest surah is only 10 words. This is proof of Quran and Islam.

After i heard this my belief in Islam increased 99%. But can someone who knows Arabic explain how this is true? My understanding is that you can read and understand the arabic in the Quran but not write a surah like it. if this is true it is a miracle. This is like me being able to read and understand Shakespeare English but not being able to write like it (i know it is possible just using a analogy).

why isn't all arabic people Muslims then? for example you have a some christian Arabs, have they not heard of this? and do they teach this in the education system in the arab countrys? we could have more practising muslims if only they knew.
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thirdwatch512
11-24-2007, 08:47 PM
i know that people in egypt must learn the qu'ran in school. i have a coptic christian friend from egypt who had to learn the qu'ran as part of his arabic language class.

When it comes down to it, it varies from person to person. I have met many arabic speakers that think the qu'ran is jsut a book, and nothing more. They do not see it as beautiful or anything like that. One prominent arabic scholar was alrazi.. he was not a muslim and he did not think the qu'ran was beautiful at all. also, there is a lot fos peculation that taha hussein, and arabic poet from egypt in the early 1900's died and atheist.

but then there are those muslim arabs who DO see the qu'ran as miraculous and beautiful. if you ask any religious muslim about the qu'ran in arabic, they will tell you that it is a beautiful book that no one can ever make.

so it varies from people to people, group to group. also, if i am not mistaken, in arabic poetry there was this thing that people would challenge others to try and produce it better. it has an arabic name, but i can not remember what it is called. i will ask my neighbor tomorrow :)

so yeah.. it varies from person to person!
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Umar001
11-24-2007, 08:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam19241924
:sl: brothers and sisters

During the time of the messenger prophet Muhammad (saw) the quraish said that the Quran was not the word of Allah (swt) but that of Mohammed's (saw) words or a christian person called jabr. Allah then sent the revelation challenging the qurash to write 10 surahs like the Quran then a revelation after challenging them to write 1 surah like the Quran. They couldnt achieve this even though the shortest surah is only 10 words. This is proof of Quran and Islam.

After i heard this my belief in Islam increased 99%. But can someone who knows Arabic explain how this is true? My understanding is that you can read and understand the arabic in the Quran but not write a surah like it. if this is true it is a miracle. This is like me being able to read and understand Shakespeare English but not being able to write like it (i know it is possible just using a analogy).

why isn't all arabic people Muslims then? for example you have a some christian Arabs, have they not heard of this? and do they teach this in the education system in the arab countrys? we could have more practising muslims if only they knew.
Wa Aleyklum salam,

Someone with more arabic knowledge can give you more detail, but I will say that look at the english language, people, here, are very diverse kids think shakespearen english is rubbish whilst others hold it out to be the peak of english whilst others, like my english teacher, yet say that the King James version of the bible uses the best english.

You'd have to have rules or evidences from which to go by and argue over I think instead of mere opinions, language is always changing so the lay person will always be subject to the common language on the street.
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جوري
11-24-2007, 10:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
i know that people in egypt must learn the qu'ran in school. i have a coptic christian friend from egypt who had to learn the qu'ran as part of his arabic language class.

When it comes down to it, it varies from person to person. I have met many arabic speakers that think the qu'ran is jsut a book, and nothing more. They do not see it as beautiful or anything like that. One prominent arabic scholar was alrazi.. he was not a muslim and he did not think the qu'ran was beautiful at all. also, there is a lot fos peculation that taha hussein, and arabic poet from egypt in the early 1900's died and atheist.

but then there are those muslim arabs who DO see the qu'ran as miraculous and beautiful. if you ask any religious muslim about the qu'ran in arabic, they will tell you that it is a beautiful book that no one can ever make.

so it varies from people to people, group to group. also, if i am not mistaken, in arabic poetry there was this thing that people would challenge others to try and produce it better. it has an arabic name, but i can not remember what it is called. i will ask my neighbor tomorrow :)

so yeah.. it varies from person to person!
I have gone to school in Egypt and Christians AREN'T countenanced to learn the Quran..I know for a fact you are making the above up... I sat in class next to a kid named sami7 who was christian and we had quran class he had bible class, and abla susan came and grabbed him along with the two other christian kids... pls don't count so much that you can just hand out bull and people will believe it.. because many here have gone to school in middle eastern countries and know exactly how the system works...

if a lie in part then a lie in whole... won't you ever quit?


cheers!
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Brother15400
11-25-2007, 08:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam19241924
:sl: brothers and sisters

During the time of the messenger prophet Muhammad (saw) the quraish said that the Quran was not the word of Allah (swt) but that of Mohammed's (saw) words or a christian person called jabr. Allah then sent the revelation challenging the qurash to write 10 surahs like the Quran then a revelation after challenging them to write 1 surah like the Quran. They couldnt achieve this even though the shortest surah is only 10 words. This is proof of Quran and Islam.

After i heard this my belief in Islam increased 99%. But can someone who knows Arabic explain how this is true? My understanding is that you can read and understand the arabic in the Quran but not write a surah like it. if this is true it is a miracle. This is like me being able to read and understand Shakespeare English but not being able to write like it (i know it is possible just using a analogy).

why isn't all arabic people Muslims then? for example you have a some christian Arabs, have they not heard of this? and do they teach this in the education system in the arab countrys? we could have more practising muslims if only they knew.
Peace Be Upon you,

Brother, the reason for this is simple. Allah SWT gave us the choice, and all mankind the choice to choose the religion that he wishes. Probably, many Christians know this, and many non-Muslim arabs know this as well, but they would have countless justifications for their own religions as well. As to whether or not the Qu'ran has been changed, there is no doubt that it has not been changed from the time of the prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him). This can be seen in the fact that there is a perfect balance of words in the Qu'ran. And the number of times that each word occurs has its own significance. For instance, the arabic word for day occurs 365 times in the Qu'ran, and the word for month occurs 12 times. Also, thousands of years ago a Greek man called Meton discovered the Metonic cycle, which shows that the earth, moon and sun coincide in their position once every nineteen years. The arabic word for year occurs 19 times in the Qu'ran.

Jazakalakhair,

Peace Be Upon You
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Malaikah
11-25-2007, 08:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by dauodwa
For instance, the arabic word for day occurs 365 times in the Qu'ran, and the word for month occurs 12 times. Also, thousands of years ago a Greek man called Meton discovered the Metonic cycle, which shows that the earth, moon and sun coincide in their position once every nineteen years. The arabic word for year occurs 19 times in the Qu'ran.
:sl:

Do you have a source for this? :?
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Brother15400
11-25-2007, 09:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

Do you have a source for this? :?
Peace Be Upon You,
Yes, this information and much more can be found in the booklet "The Basis of Muslim Belief" by Abdul-Ahad Omar (Formerly Gary Miller). Also, you could just by a complete index of the Qu'ran and see for yourself. :D

Thanks for your response,

Peace Be Upon You
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Whatsthepoint
11-25-2007, 12:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dauodwa
but they would have countless justifications for their own religions as well.
That's true. There are so many "miracles" that it is rather impossible to decide whose (if any) are real. That's why I am an agnostic.

there is no doubt that it has not been changed from the time of the prophet Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him).
Not necessarily. There's not that much word/letter/etc repetition in the Quran that it couldn't be addded after the Prophet's death. It would have to be done thoroughly but it is possible.
In my opinion, however, the Quran was not changed after Mohammad's death.
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Whatsthepoint
11-25-2007, 12:41 PM
What I find extremely fascinating about the Quran is this.

:offended::offended::D
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جوري
11-25-2007, 03:30 PM
what is the point of this Oh plucky one?
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Brother15400
11-26-2007, 07:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What I find extremely fascinating about the Quran is this.

:offended::offended::D
Peace Be Upon You,

I don't think that the arguments there are really logical... it seems as if you could do that with any book as long as your good at maths :okay:. In the post before this, you quoted me and mentioned my quote about how people have lots of justifications for their religions. My implication wasn't that these things should be dismissed, it was merely that everyone follows something based on their justifications of it and their belief in it. This is not a reason to be an agnostic, it is an encouragement to learn as much as you can about your beliefs and others beliefs. Having said that, I dont have a problem with your personal inclination. Whatever people believe, we have to respect their opinions, unlike the people on this site:


http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showt...t=5594&page=15

Peace Be Upon You
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Whatsthepoint
11-26-2007, 06:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dauodwa
Peace Be Upon You,

I don't think that the arguments there are really logical... it seems as if you could do that with any book as long as your good at maths :okay:. In the post before this, you quoted me and mentioned my quote about how people have lots of justifications for their religions. My implication wasn't that these things should be dismissed, it was merely that everyone follows something based on their justifications of it and their belief in it. This is not a reason to be an agnostic, it is an encouragement to learn as much as you can about your beliefs and others beliefs. Having said that, I dont have a problem with your personal inclination. Whatever people believe, we have to respect their opinions, unlike the people on this site:


http://www.landoverbaptist.net/showt...t=5594&page=15

Peace Be Upon You
No, I don't think this 19 thing is a coincidence. In my opinion it was planned by a certain literate person...but let's leave it at that.

You do realize the Landover Baptist Church is a parody?:D
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Brother15400
11-27-2007, 03:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No, I don't think this 19 thing is a coincidence. In my opinion it was planned by a certain literate person...but let's leave it at that.

You do realize the Landover Baptist Church is a parody?:D
Peace Be Upon You,

Lol. I just realized that today. Yeah, I thought I better check after all that what others had said about it. I new about the founder, but I didnt know that he made this as a political satire. Regardless, it does highlight the threat of fundamentalism. Others should also go to these sites to find out about the Landover parody site:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landover_Baptist_Church
http://www.hachettebookgroupusa.com/...557/index.html

And as for the Qu'ran, you are probably right. There are said to be many things that we will never truly know about the Qu'ran and may only be discovered in the distant future if at all. The letters Aleef Laam Meem are a good example. The Yusuf Ali Tafsir talks about these letters at the end of Sura Al Baqara.

Peace Be With You.
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thirdwatch512
12-04-2007, 11:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I have gone to school in Egypt and Christians AREN'T countenanced to learn the Quran..I know for a fact you are making the above up... I sat in class next to a kid named sami7 who was christian and we had quran class he had bible class, and abla susan came and grabbed him along with the two other christian kids... pls don't count so much that you can just hand out bull and people will believe it.. because many here have gone to school in middle eastern countries and know exactly how the system works...

if a lie in part then a lie in whole... won't you ever quit?


cheers!
I did not say there was a religious class he took on islam. I said he did learn the qu'ran though.

In America, we have a class called "English". In egypt, I guess you guys have a class called "arabic" where you learn arabic. And in that class, you guys learn about the qu'ran.. Just as how in USA 7th grade students in many schools learn about the Bible. Not all, but some.

Now my friend Emad learned about the qu'ran in his arabic class. If you do not believe me, PM me and I will give you his e-mail and you guys can talk. He is on MSN all the time, and I am sure he would not mind talking with you. And obviously he speaks arabic, which is better! So hit me with a PM if you don't believe me.

and also, ask for my sources/proof before calling me a liar. I am surprised that an arab called me a liar anyways.. I always thought that was something VERY offensive to call someone in arabic culture.. Unless of course you really dislike me so much!
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thirdwatch512
12-04-2007, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by dauodwa
And the number of times that each word occurs has its own significance. For instance, the arabic word for day occurs 365 times in the Qu'ran, and the word for month occurs 12 times. Also, thousands of years ago a Greek man called Meton discovered the Metonic cycle, which shows that the earth, moon and sun coincide in their position once every nineteen years. The arabic word for year occurs 19 times in the Qu'ran.

Jazakalakhair,

Peace Be Upon You
As for the word "day" being 365 times - You have to exclude endings of words such as "idhin" and "kumu" to come up with 365. But why should they be excluded?! there is no probable reason for that. Not to mention that your calender is 354 days anyways!

"Month" is used 12 times, that is right.

"Days" is used 27 times. However, there are 3 duals, so if you add them, you get 30.

"Man", rajal is used 24 times, as is "imraat" for woman. But then if you count "rejal" and "nisa" you do not get such similarities.

If anything, someone could have just added it in there. But most likely, it is just coincidence.

Pepole like yusuef estes have spoken against this "numerical miracle" many times. So has sheikh muhammad al-munajjid.
http://islamqa.com/index.php?ref=697...ng&txt=numeric
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جوري
12-04-2007, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
I did not say there was a religious class he took on islam. I said he did learn the qu'ran though.
I am sure he did!

In America, we have a class called "English". In egypt, I guess you guys have a class called "arabic" where you learn arabic. And in that class, you guys learn about the qu'ran.. Just as how in USA 7th grade students in many schools learn about the Bible. Not all, but some.
That is funny-- when you go to school in Egypt you indeed take 'qawai3d fi ilogha al3arabya' No Quran is taught there either, anymore than the bible is used to teach English here in the states!
Now my friend Emad learned about the qu'ran in his arabic class. If you do not believe me, PM me and I will give you his e-mail and you guys can talk. He is on MSN all the time, and I am sure he would not mind talking with you. And obviously he speaks arabic, which is better! So hit me with a PM if you don't believe me.
I have no interest in tall tales or tall tales by proxy! Frankly you are the company you keep and I have seen how much credibility you have!

and also, ask for my sources/proof before calling me a liar. I am surprised that an arab called me a liar anyways.. I always thought that was something VERY offensive to call someone in arabic culture.. Unless of course you really dislike me so much!
Sources and proofs is any member here who has gone to school in the middle east especially in a very secular country like Egypt and knows how the system is run... I call them like I see them frankly I have seen very little credibility on your part thus far, and have no cause to believe that has changed!

cheers!
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thirdwatch512
12-04-2007, 11:21 PM
Sources and proofs is any member here who has gone to school in the middle east especially in a very secular country like Egypt and knows how the system is run... I call them like I see them frankly I have seen very little credibility on your part thus far, and have no cause to believe that has changed!
Well, I offered for you to talk to him. You refused. so it is your problem if you do not trust me, because you refuse to see the info.

And I do not know how you can say egpyt is secular.. Certainly not by my standards.. I mean look at how it is.. people can not even convert to Christianity without having to go to court!! How ridiculous!!
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جوري
12-04-2007, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
Well, I offered for you to talk to him. You refused. so it is your problem if you do not trust me, because you refuse to see the info.

And I do not know how you can say egpyt is secular.. Certainly not by my standards.. I mean look at how it is.. people can not even convert to Christianity without having to go to court!! How ridiculous!!
Rofl.. you must have your screws backwards?.. ask then why good old 'baba shenooda' went on strike with other church members when three nuns decided to become Muslim?..

Again, You are the company you keep and just the quality and the bull in your posts is enough to give me a good idea of your inner self and those you keep in your company.

Your standards aren't the measure by which others live their lives... one who has gone from the 'Ghost of the virgin mary over some church in tanta' to an atheist in three weeks or less to making up stories at whim, infiltrated to the brim with lies is now the authority figure.. people just have the good sense not to reply back to bunk.. but I just wanted to let you know, so you don't embaress yourself to a wider audiance or God forbid in person!

cheers
Reply

جوري
12-04-2007, 11:45 PM
There you go..ask your good buddy to tell you why 'Baba Shenouda' was strking against the nuns who converted to Islam and then come speak to me of 'freedom of religion by your standards'!


البابا شنوده يعتكف في دير الإنبا بيشوي احتجاجا على "خطف" المسيحيات



تصلي في الخفاء
لست مراهقة ساذجة





القاهرة - محمد حمدي

أضاف البابا شنودة الثالث بطريرك الأقباط الأرثوذكس بعدا جديدا للأزمة في أوساط الأقباط المصريين عقب الأنباء التي ترددت عن اختفاء زوجة أحد القساوسة في مدينة أبو المطامير بمحافظة البحيرة شمال غرب العاصمة المصرية بعد إشهار إسلامها، حيث ذهب الباب للاعتكاف في دير الإنبا بيشوي بوادي النطرون وألغى عظته الأسبوعية التي يلقيها مساء كل أربعاء في كاتدرائية الأقباط الأرثوذكس في ضاحية العباسية شرق القاهرة في إشارة على عدم رضاه عن الأوضاع القائمة.


ويعتبر لجوء البابا شنودة إلى الاعتكاف في دير الإنبا بيشوي تعبيرا عن الاحتجاج على وضع ما، وهو أسلوب يلجأ إليه البابا شنودة الثالث حينما تتوتر علاقاته مع الدولة.
وكان موقع قبطي على الإنترنت قد ذكر أن فتاة مسيحية تدعى نورا عبد الله فهيم من مدينة الفرافرة في محافظة الوادي الجديد التي تبعد عن القاهرة حوالي 500 كم، قد اختفت أيضا وأشار الموقع إلى أن نورا تعمل في مستشفى الفرافرة بنفس المحافظة وهي خريجة معهد صحي أسيوط ويعيش والدها في قرية غرب الموهوب مركز الداخلة وهي مقيمة بالمستشفى التي تعمل فيه تحت التدريب.
وقد شجعها شاب مسلم يعمل عامل بنفس المستشفى اسمه تامر عبد الحكيم مقيم بقرية الكفاح مركز الفرافرة محافظة الوادي الجديد وهو أصلا من دكرنس على الاختفاء معه من حوالي شهر تقريبا وقد ترددت الأخبار بأنه قد تزوجها زواجا عرفيا، ولكن لم يتردد أنها أشهرت إسلامها حتى الآن وقد أبلغ والدها الجهات الأمنية والسياسية بالمحافظة.
وأشار الموقع إلى أن القمص بيشوي المحرقي المسؤول عن الخدمة بالوادي الجديد قد أبلغ كل الجهات التي تعاطفت مع الموقف بكل اهتمام ولكن حتى الآن لم يعثر عليها ولم تعد هي أو الشاب إلى عملهما لحد الآن، وقد أبلغ والدها مدير النيابة العامة متهما الشاب بتحريضها على الهروب وأمرت النيابة بضبطه.
من جانب آخرنجحت السلطات المصرية مؤخرا في عقد لقاء بين السيدة وفاء قسطنطين وخمسة من مطارنة الكنيسة المصرية لمناقشتها حول ما أعلن عن اعتناقها الإسلام، وذلك في محاولة منها لاحتواء الأزمة المثارة في مصر، بعد أن سرت شائعات فحواها أن وفاء اختطفت وأجبرت على اعتناق الإسلام.
وبحسب تصريحات لصحيفة "الشرق الأوسط"، فإن قسطنطين بدأت علاقتها بالإسلام منذ حوالي عامين، عندما شاهدت أحد البرامج التلفزيونية بالصدفة وكان يقدم شرحاً وتفسيرا لإحدى الآيات القرآنية، "فاكتشفت أن القرآن يتحدث بلغة العلم الحديث".
ولأنها درست العلوم والزراعة، كما تذكر، فقد تأنت وفاء في تقديرها للموقف وطلبت من أحد زملائها المسلمين الذي "تثق فيه" أن يمدها بكتب عن الإسلام وتفسيره، "فاكتشفت أن الإسلام ليس كما عرفت دين عنف وتكفير للآخر، فقررت اعتناقه من دون أن يدرك أحد ذلك أويعرف سرها أحد، إلى أن حدثت التطورات الأخيرة".
وقد تسبب اعتناق المهندسة وفاء قسطنطين الإسلام بـ"ثورة غضب" بين بعض أوساط المجتمع القبطي، وذلك رغم تكذيب وزارة الداخلية المصرية للأخبار التي أفادت بـ"خطف وفاء"، وتأكيدها أن السيدة البالغة من العمر 46 عاما أسلمت بكامل إرادتها، وتركت بيتها في مدينة أبوالمطامير في محافظة البحيرة في دلتا مصر 146 كيلومترا شمال القاهرة من دون أي ضغوط خارجية.
تجدر الإشارة إلى أن وفاء قسطنطين مسيحية المولد والمنشأ، ولدت في عام 1959، في محافظة المنوفية بدلتا مصر لأسرة مسيحية، تملك المال والسمعة الطيبة، عاشت في محافظة المنوفية 23 عاما مع عائلتها قبل أن تنتقل إلى مدينة أبوالمطامير عقب زواجها. ملامحها هادئة وهي بيضاء مشربة بحمرة، وتحرص الآن على ارتداء الحجاب الذي يغطي شعرها.



تصلي في الخفاء

وفي مطلع الثمانينات حصلت على إجازة جامعية في الهندسة الزراعية، ثم تزوجت من أحد القساوسة، وأنجبت منه ابنا هوالآن مهندس وابنة تدرس في كلية العلوم جامعة الإسكندرية، وحينما شاهدت بالمصادفة برنامجا تلفزيونيا في التلفزيون المصري تناول فيه أحد المتحدثين تفسيرا للقرآن بشكل مبسط، فاكتشفت أن القرآن الذي نزل على محمد منذ ما يزيد على 1400 عام تحدث بلغة بسيطة يفهمها الجميع.. فبدأت تركز فيما تسمع حتى نهاية البرنامج التلفزيوني، وهي تشعر بشيء غامض ينبض به قلبها، وكأن صدرها ينشرح ـ كما تقول ـ لشيء مجهول لا تعي ماهية طبيعته.. ولأنها درست العلوم الزراعية اكتشفت أن الإسلام ليس كما عرفت دين عنف وتكفير للآخر، ووجدت فيه إجابات عن أسئلة كانت تشغل تفكيرها منذ سنوات، وكلما قرأت وتعلمت، أدركت سلامة موقفها وصحته، فزاد تمسكها بالإسلام الذي اعتنقته دون أن يدرك أحد ذلك، أويعرف سرها أحد، فكانت تصلي في غياب أسرتها أوفي حجرتها بعيدا عن أعينهم بعد أن تغلق عليها الباب بالمفتاح.
وقد صامت شهر رمضان قبل الماضي والماضي، مبررة امتناعها عن الطعام بألم حاد ينتابها بين الحين والآخر في معدتها، إلا أن وفاء لم تدرك أن عين ابنتها كانت تشعر التغيير الذي ألم بوالدتها، حتى كان يوم استمعت فيه الابنة لمحادثة هاتفية بين وفاء وزميلها المسلم الذي كانت تطلب منه أحد الكتب الدينية، وكان ذلك منذ عام.
وعن ذلك اليوم، ذكرت وفاء لصحيفة الشرق الأوسط أنها "تعجبت من عدم خوفي من اكتشاف ابنتي لأمر إسلامي ووجدتني أهدئها وأحدثها عن الإسلام لأقنعها به، ولكنها لم تقتنع، فطلبت منها عدم كشف سري فوافقت، واستمر الحال بي إلى أن شعرت قبل رمضان الماضي بأنني لا أستطيع أن أحيا طيلة حياتي بهذا الأسلوب، وخاصة مع زوج غير مسلم، فصارحت زميلي بما يعتمل في داخلي، فوعدني بتدبر الأمر، وبالفعل نجح في أن يجد لي مكانا خارج مدينتي لدى إحدى الأسر المسلمة في القاهرة، وكان من المقرر أن أترك البيت قبل رمضان، وآتي للقاهرة لإشهار إسلامي، إلا أن ابنتي كانت تضيّق عليّ رقابتها بعد أن شعرت بما أنوي فعله، فلم أفلح في ترك المنزل قبل رمضان".



لست مراهقة ساذجة

وتكمل وفاء قصتها بأنها نجحت في إقناع أسرتها منذ ثلاثة أسابيع في الذهاب إلى الإسكندرية (200 كيلومتر شمال القاهرة) لقضاء عدة أيام في شقتهم التي يملكونها هناك.. كان ذلك يوم جمعة، وبالفعل قضت ليلتها في الإسكندرية، وفي صباح السبت حضر لها زميلها الذي اصطحبها إلى القاهرة دون علم أحد وتوجه بها إلى تلك الأسرة المسلمة التي كان قد اتفق معها على استضافة وفاء.
ورحبت الأسرة بوفاء وأحاطتها بالحنان، خاصة عندما بكت مع اقتراب عودة زميلها إلى مدينتهما، متذكرة ابنها وابنتها.. فما كان من رب العائلة المضيفة لها، إلا أن أخبرها أنها بإمكانها العودة إن أرادت، فردت عليه مؤكدة أنها اختارت طريقها الجديد رغم شوقها الكبير لأولادها.
وقد اصطحب رب الأسرة وفاء إلى قسم الشرطة لإثبات حالها وسماع أقوالها في أنها جاءت بمحض إرادتها، بعدها ذهبت إلى مباحث أمن الدولة التي استمعت لها وسألتها عما إذا كانت قد تعرضت لأي ضغوط لإجبارها على الإسلام، فنفت ذلك.. ثم سألوها إذا كانت ترغب في العودة لأبنائها وعائلتها فأكدت لهم عدم ندمها على اختيارها.
عندئذ سألوها إذا كانت تريد الانتقال إلى بيت آخر أومكان إقامة غير الذي تقيم فيه، فأكدت لهم راحتها مع تلك الأسرة المسلمة التي تحيطها بكل رعاية، وخرجت وفاء دون أن تعلم أن هناك نارا مشتعلة بدأت بشائعات في مدينتها، بأن المسلمين خطفوها ليجبروها على الإسلام.
وتتعجب وفاء قائلة "لم أتخيل يوما أن تحتل أخباري قنوات الأخبار والصحافة العالمية، وأن تقوم وتندلع المظاهرات بسببي.. ولكن أقول لأي مسيحي إنني اتخذت قراري بمحض إرادتي، دون أي ضغوط.. لقد عرفت طريقي.. وانشرح قلبي على مدى عامين.. كما أنني لست فتاة مراهقة أوغير ناضجة من الممكن التأثير عليّ.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2004/12/11/8617.html
Reply

thirdwatch512
12-04-2007, 11:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Rofl.. you must have your screws backwards?.. ask then why good old 'baba shenooda' went on strike with other church members when three nuns decided to become Muslim?..

Again, You are the company you keep and just the quality and the bull in your posts is enough to give me a good idea of your inner self and those you keep in your company.

Your standards aren't the measure by which others live their lives... one who has gone from the 'Ghost of the virgin mary over some church in tanta' to an atheist in three weeks or less to making up stories at whim, infiltrated to the brim with lies is now the authority figure.. people just have the good sense not to reply back to bunk.. but I just wanted to let you know, so you don't embaress yourself to a wider audiance or God forbid in person!

cheers
What does the coptic pope have anything to do with ME?

This is a classic example of you trying to get attention by switching to tpic, to try and make your religion look true.
I said that egypt is not secular to my standards, and it most certainly is not. However, i never said that CHRISTIANS in egypt were secular either.. Because by my standards, they are most certainly not.(that is, the status quo.)

also, i am a rare member. I have been here for like what, a year?! And I have only like 400 posts. I am not active at all, so please..

yes, I am an atheist.. I fail to understand how one can believe that we descended from two people(adam and eve) and that we are all descendent's from them. I fail to understand why "elohim/theos/allah" forgot to mention that there were millions of indians in the america's. I fail to understand how a loving god, "al rahim", a merciful god, whatever, could send someone to eternal hell.

And a few weeks before I WAS showing some pictures from Zeitoon and the virgin mary appearing there. And your point is?

I guess you should call all converts to islam gullible too.. I mean after all, they left their former beliefs.

You consistently just try and argue. That is all you ever do with me is try to point out that I am gay, so I MUST, oh I just must be a bad person with no credibility. You call me liar, etc.

Calm down with the personal insults. I think you are a wanabee attention grabber who has too much time on her hands.. But you don't hear me saying that in every post. So please, chill out.
Reply

doodlebug
12-05-2007, 12:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
What does the coptic pope have anything to do with ME?

This is a classic example of you trying to get attention by switching to tpic, to try and make your religion look true.
I said that egypt is not secular to my standards, and it most certainly is not. However, i never said that CHRISTIANS in egypt were secular either.. Because by my standards, they are most certainly not.(that is, the status quo.)

also, i am a rare member. I have been here for like what, a year?! And I have only like 400 posts. I am not active at all, so please..

yes, I am an atheist.. I fail to understand how one can believe that we descended from two people(adam and eve) and that we are all descendent's from them. I fail to understand why "elohim/theos/allah" forgot to mention that there were millions of indians in the america's. I fail to understand how a loving god, "al rahim", a merciful god, whatever, could send someone to eternal hell.

And a few weeks before I WAS showing some pictures from Zeitoon and the virgin mary appearing there. And your point is?

I guess you should call all converts to islam gullible too.. I mean after all, they left their former beliefs.

You consistently just try and argue. That is all you ever do with me is try to point out that I am gay, so I MUST, oh I just must be a bad person with no credibility. You call me liar, etc.

Calm down with the personal insults. I think you are a wanabee attention grabber who has too much time on her hands.. But you don't hear me saying that in every post. So please, chill out.
If you're an athiest why does your profile say you're Christian and why is there a jewish link in your siggy? I think someone might be a wee bit confused.....
Reply

جوري
12-05-2007, 12:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
What does the coptic pope have anything to do with ME?
what does your coptic friend have anything at all to do with me?


This is a classic example of you trying to get attention by switching to tpic, to try and make your religion look true.
I said that egypt is not secular to my standards, and it most certainly is not. However, i never said that CHRISTIANS in egypt were secular either.. Because by my standards, they are most certainly not.(that is, the status quo.)
what sort of gibberish is this, I have no idea what you are trying to say here..


also, i am a rare member. I have been here for like what, a year?! And I have only like 400 posts. I am not active at all, so please..
lol.. you are indeed one rare drama queen!

yes, I am an atheist.. I fail to understand how one can believe that we descended from two people(adam and eve) and that we are all descendent's from them. I fail to understand why "elohim/theos/allah" forgot to mention that there were millions of indians in the america's. I fail to understand how a loving god, "al rahim", a merciful god, whatever, could send someone to eternal hell.
That is something you need to work on, on your own private time, this is a quran thread.. and if you have better alternative than Adam and even, maybe Jack and the bean stalk of your pet rock that spontaneously sprouted life and sentience then by all means post it on health and sci. we'd all be eager to learn the latest..

And a few weeks before I WAS showing some pictures from Zeitoon and the virgin mary appearing there. And your point is?
I thought I already made the point abundantly clear.. you are fickle!
I guess you should call all converts to islam gullible too.. I mean after all, they left their former beliefs.
this is a an unusual reply that has no relevance to what preceded it, does not follow any premise, but I can tell was really itching you and you wanted to throw it in there?

You consistently just try and argue. That is all you ever do with me is try to point out that I am gay, so I MUST, oh I just must be a bad person with no credibility. You call me liar, etc.
your lies has nothing to do with your sexual preference, you should dig deeper into your own psyche as to why you are doing it!

Calm down with the personal insults. I think you are a wanabee attention grabber who has too much time on her hands.. But you don't hear me saying that in every post. So please, chill out.
what you think of me is utterly inconsequential, your opinion doesn't matter much to me..but the lies you spew on every thread do, and I'll point them out whenever chance permits insha'Allah!


cheers
Reply

thirdwatch512
12-05-2007, 12:17 AM
well, i already told you more then once that if you don't believe me, you can speak with my friend about it.

but you won't. so it looks like you are the one supressing the info, not me. i am not lying.. if i was, i would have not offered proof. but i am..

so.. please do not call me a liar if you are not willing to speak to my friend. i have offered you to speak with my friend, and you have declined. not my fault.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2007, 12:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug
If you're an athiest why does your profile say you're Christian and why is there a jewish link in your siggy? I think someone might be a wee bit confused.....
:sl:
No--- he is not confused... but deliberately into misleading people... but unfortunately not very skilled at it.. or I should say fortunate indeed wal7mdlilah so the rest of us aren't fooled by the BS...


:w:
Reply

thirdwatch512
12-05-2007, 12:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
what does your coptic friend have anything at all to do with me?
You said i lied about christians learning the qu'ran. I offered you the oppurtunity to talk with my egyptian friend who is coptic.

you refused, because you want to believe in your lies.

lol.. you are indeed one rare drama queen!
thanks!

That is something you need to work on, on your own private time, this is a quran thread..
Good.. So stop making stupid posts calling me a liar if this is a QURAN thread!
and if you have better alternative than Adam and even, maybe Jack and the bean stalk of your pet rock that spontaneously sprouted life and sentience then by all means post it on health and sci. we'd all be eager to learn the latest..
ah, but you creationists will not respond. and then if we evolutionists debunk you guys, you block us!
I thought I already made the point abundantly clear.. you are fickle!
likewise
this is a an unusual reply that has no relevance to what preceded it, does not follow any premise, but I can tell was really itching you and you wanted to throw it in there?
you were saying one week i am christian, next atheist.

well, one week a person might be christian, the next, they might convert to islam.

does not make someone gullible, as you intended to say i was.

your lies has nothing to do with your sexual preference, you should dig deeper into your own psyche as to why you are doing it!
then why do you constantly tell everyone i am gay in many threads? you and muslim woman constantly do that.
what you think of me is utterly inconsequential, your opinion doesn't matter much to me..but the lies you spew on every thread do, and I'll point them out whenever chance permits insha'Allah!
good, i certainly hope you will point out any errors i make!
Reply

thirdwatch512
12-05-2007, 12:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug
If you're an athiest why does your profile say you're Christian and why is there a jewish link in your siggy? I think someone might be a wee bit confused.....
1. I have not gotten to change my faith status yet, nor have i changed my signature.

2. the video link i give is on ISRAEL, not jews. most people here are too bigoted to note a difference though.
Reply

thirdwatch512
12-05-2007, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
:sl:
No--- he is not confused... but deliberately into misleading people... but unfortunately not very skilled at it.. or I should say fortunate indeed wal7mdlilah so the rest of us aren't fooled by the BS...


:w:
i already offered to give you the contact info to my friend who is from egypt. you denied. so that is your fault, not mine.

as for other errors i have made.. show me.. and one by one i can tell you where i got that info from, and you can correct/rebuke me, and vice versa.
Reply

جوري
12-05-2007, 12:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
You said i lied about christians learning the qu'ran. I offered you the oppurtunity to talk with my egyptian friend who is coptic.
I told you, from the mouth of the liar, the truth becomes doubtful. I have no reason to believe your friend is any better than you. But I have every reason to believe what I know of the country I lived in and went to school to! you getting him to back you up doesn't loan either of you credence!

you refused, because you want to believe in your lies.
The only one spewing lies here is you. Ask any of the numerous Egyptian and Muslim members here who are currently attending school in the middle east if copts are required to learn the Quran, least of which in Arabic class.. are you for real?


thanks!
Bah


Good.. So stop making stupid posts calling me a liar if this is a QURAN thread!
But you are a liar and very relevant to this topic, not to atheism, and not to Adam and eve.. try to stay on track!

ah, but you creationists will not respond. and then if we evolutionists debunk you guys, you block us!
That is a load of crock..



you were saying one week i am christian, next atheist.
indeed!
well, one week a person might be christian, the next, they might convert to islam.
Indeed and true yet again, yet they don't staunchly defend their former faulty principles in the process!

does not make someone gullible, as you intended to say i was.
Not gullible no but fickle there is a difference!

then why do you constantly tell everyone i am gay in many threads? you and muslim woman constantly do that.
where have I called you gay here? you are the one constantly pointing it out!

good, i certainly hope you will point out any errors i make!
Glad.. pls don't complain then when I do!

cheers
Reply

doodlebug
12-05-2007, 12:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
1. I have not gotten to change my faith status yet, nor have i changed my signature.

2. the video link i give is on ISRAEL, not jews. most people here are too bigoted to note a difference though.

Have you actually WATCHED the video? I did and it starts out as a comedy about boycotting Israel but then proceeds to be one about boycotting jews...........and the original site that it's from is a jewish site. You might want to learn about things before posting links to them.
Reply

thirdwatch512
12-05-2007, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I told you, from the mouth of the liar, the truth becomes doubtful. I have no reason to believe your friend is any better than you. But I have every reason to believe what I know of the country I lived in and went to school to! you getting him to back you up doesn't loan either of you credence!
Figures.. That is a good way to run away from the truth..
And my friend lives in Egypt too. so... yeah..
The only one spewing lies here is you. Ask any of the numerous Egyptian and Muslim members here who are currently attending school in the middle east if copts are required to learn the Quran, least of which in Arabic class.. are you for real?
Well, why don't we ask them?!



But you are a liar and very relevant to this topic, not to atheism, and not to Adam and eve.. try to stay on track!
you are a deceiver.
That is a load of crock..
Proof?


Indeed and true yet again, yet they don't staunchly defend their former faulty principles in the process!
And where have I "staunchly" defended Christianity?
Not gullible no but fickle there is a difference!
lol

where have I called you gay here? you are the one constantly pointing it out!
Not called me gay.. Just brought it up at the beginning when I first joined constantly. I reckon you could probably view my earlier posts and you might find them.
Glad.. pls don't complain then when I do!
Ok, I will make you a deal.. We drop the argument before it gets worse! Then no complaining, no fighting.
cheers
Likewise
format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug
Have you actually WATCHED the video? I did and it starts out as a comedy about boycotting Israel but then proceeds to be one about boycotting jews...........and the original site that it's from is a jewish site. You might want to learn about things before posting links to them.
So, Jews were involved in the video, and it is from a Jewish site.. Point?

It is an educational video that basically speaks about major inventions made by ISRAELI'S. Not always Jews.

And of course I have watched the video. Several times. I would NEVER post a link if I have not visited it!
Reply

doodlebug
12-05-2007, 12:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islam19241924
:sl: brothers and sisters

During the time of the messenger prophet Muhammad (saw) the quraish said that the Quran was not the word of Allah (swt) but that of Mohammed's (saw) words or a christian person called jabr. Allah then sent the revelation challenging the qurash to write 10 surahs like the Quran then a revelation after challenging them to write 1 surah like the Quran. They couldnt achieve this even though the shortest surah is only 10 words. This is proof of Quran and Islam.

After i heard this my belief in Islam increased 99%. But can someone who knows Arabic explain how this is true? My understanding is that you can read and understand the arabic in the Quran but not write a surah like it. if this is true it is a miracle. This is like me being able to read and understand Shakespeare English but not being able to write like it (i know it is possible just using a analogy).

why isn't all arabic people Muslims then? for example you have a some christian Arabs, have they not heard of this? and do they teach this in the education system in the arab countrys? we could have more practising muslims if only they knew.

Getting back to the topic at hand......I have always been curious about this myself....ie. what guidelines are to be followed when trying to create a surah that would measure up?:?
Reply

جوري
12-05-2007, 12:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by thirdwatch512
Figures.. That is a good way to run away from the truth..
And my friend lives in Egypt too. so... yeah..
What truth you fool? the one you make up at whim?

Well, why don't we ask them?!
Ask them what?why an atheist and a copt lie?



you are a deceiver.
Sounds like an adequate assessment of self ey?

Proof?
start here and show me what you can do
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_P...ell_112302.pdf



And where have I "staunchly" defended Christianity?

lol
You only staunchly advocate for Bull ****!


Not called me gay.. Just brought it up at the beginning when I first joined constantly. I reckon you could probably view my earlier posts and you might find them.
You said I constantly called you gay? I don't see it here.. furthermore, how could I have know of your life style choices unless you were advertising it?


Ok, I will make you a deal.. We drop the argument before it gets worse! Then no complaining, no fighting.

Likewise
I have no intention of turning anything for the better or the worse, I merely question why it is, you'd so vehemently write without verifying from credible sources something other than a 'coptic friend'

cheers
Reply

جوري
12-05-2007, 02:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by doodlebug
Getting back to the topic at hand......I have always been curious about this myself....ie. what guidelines are to be followed when trying to create a surah that would measure up?:?
guidance, transcendence, linguistic superiority, an actual message, insight to life, human psyche, insight to things we see in every day life and their significance, to the law, to jurisprudence, and things that aren't ever mentioned prior or are known to anyone's knowledge to set it apart, rhyme, revealed yrs apart but have the same rhythm and good sense.. even computers couldn't keep track the way the Quran was actually revealed. check out some of the suras that are part makya and part madanya in yrs apart and then check context... when it is stated that its wonders never cease it is because truly on every level it is almost utterly beguiling... this is no irdinary book and the challenge is, if people find it to be ordinary, then let them come with something similar even if it is like the shortest sura which is only three verses long..

:w:
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