Which love is the better love?

[Keltoi]

I recently attended a lecture in which this question was asked. The question is..."Which is the better love, to lay down your life for family and friends, or to lay down your life for someone you don't know?"

I posted this in the comparative religion section because I'm not sure where else to post it, plus it would be interested to hear people's views on the matter.

The man who gave the lecture was trying to make the point that Western civilization, going back to the fall of the Roman Empire and the introduction of Christianity, saw a dynamic change in what was more noble. Before it was considered more noble to defend family, friends, and community, but after the rise of Christianity, it became more noble to defend those whom you have never met. I found this to be fascinating, and I can't really give his presentation justice. His basic thesis was that it is "unnatural" to value those whom you have never met above family and friends, but that Western civilization, and to some extent the world, has seen this change in what is considered noble. The end result being that traditional family structures, community structures, and the concept of "shame" have been in decay for hundreds of years in the West.

Just for the sake of discussion, which do you believe is the more noble pursuit? To lay down one's life for your family, friends, community?..or for somebody you have never met? Is there a difference between Christianity and Islam on this matter?

[Muezzin]

I think love of Doritos takes precedence, but to answer your question...

Hmm... Never thought about it like that. They're both forms of altruism (well, as altruistic as you can get before some Freudian fella claims you're actually doing it for yourself, yadda yadda, and by the way, eat more Doritos, they're not paying me to say this yet) and noble in their own way. I'd take the non-existent third option and say 'both are as admirable as each other', but some might interpret that as a cop-out. Ah well.

[------]

:salamext:

Personally, I don't know. Because sometimes, strangers do a lot more for you and care about you more than your own family, but then again your family is your blood....

Meh :-\

[Keltoi]

I believe the point of the lecture is the impact this has on society. Think about all the people who donate money for starving children in Africa or South America...when we all know there are probably hungry children in our own neighborhood. Think of Angelina Jolie and the other rich Hollywood types who go overseas to adopt child after child, when our own foster care system is bulging at the seams.

Of course both forms are altruistic, but which is more natural for the success of a people? I think that was the point of the lecture. Of course he tied it all in by using the Spartans and other Greek city-states which formed the core of Western civilization and their ideas of what was noble compared to what we consider noble now.

Perhaps this is too theoretical of a topic, but I found it interesting.

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[Abi786]

:sl:

after reading your thread and then pondering for a few minutes, ive come to the conclusion that when the time comes for you to make that decsion it would be a gut instinct - based on the values that you are brought up with.

Also it would depend on the context of the situation - so for example if a child was in the middle of the road and a car was speeding towards them, then it would be a split second decsion which would be made or you would stand frozen to the spot and be to shocked to react. - at that point it wouldnt cross your mind that you will die for this child (be it blood or not)

on the other hand if you were to have the time to think about what you are about to do then it wouldnt be so easy to for example take a bullet for a complete stranger or a family member. - well unless you believed that you would be rewarded for it in the hereafter.

so overall i think it is human nature to probably on gut instinct defend the innocent or save any ones life or stop some injustice being carried out (i.e. watching a woman getting raped) BUT if you were given the time to think about it then you would never do it for a stranger but for a loved one...maybe

correct me if im wrong but i think i have read somewhere that Allah swt said that if you see something wrong taking place then stop it with your hands, and if you are unable to do that, then at least voice it, and if you are too weak to do that then at least think it in your heart. (please correct me if this is wrong)

[tomtomsmom]

I recently attended a lecture in which this question was asked. The question is..."Which is the better love, to lay down your life for family and friends, or to lay down your life for someone you don't know?"

I posted this in the comparative religion section because I'm not sure where else to post it, plus it would be interested to hear people's views on the matter.

The man who gave the lecture was trying to make the point that Western civilization, going back to the fall of the Roman Empire and the introduction of Christianity, saw a dynamic change in what was more noble. Before it was considered more noble to defend family, friends, and community, but after the rise of Christianity, it became more noble to defend those whom you have never met. I found this to be fascinating, and I can't really give his presentation justice. His basic thesis was that it is "unnatural" to value those whom you have never met above family and friends, but that Western civilization, and to some extent the world, has seen this change in what is considered noble. The end result being that traditional family structures, community structures, and the concept of "shame" have been in decay for hundreds of years in the West.

Just for the sake of discussion, which do you believe is the more noble pursuit? To lay down one's life for your family, friends, community?..or for somebody you have never met? Is there a difference between Christianity and Islam on this matter?

This is a very interesting question indeed. I think that they are different sides of the same coin. It is very noble to protect your family. But for most people (should be all) it is second nature to them. If a loved ones life in peril it is first instinct to help them survive. Then at the same time, we have firemen that run into a burning building to save people they have never met. That, in my opinion, is the most noble of all professions. (Yes, I have a soft spot for firemen!)

So, can I say that one is more noble than the other? Simply put, no, I can't. They are both vital to the community. I think that the reason for the break down in the west is due to the fact that the two have become unbalanced. The family structures have been screwed up by the fast paced life we live and the distance we have put between ourselves and family. Community structure is nearly gone in many places because of the "it isn't my problem" attitude of many people. We are all so busy living our own lives, it is a burden to stop and think of someone else. How many times have you driven past someone broken down on the side of the road and thought "I am to busy to help so I will let someone else do it instead"? (General question to everyone) One hundred people can do this and at the end of it all, no one stops to help simply because it wasn't their problem.

Ok so now I am rambling.....sorry.

[*charisma*]

I'm not sure. I do know, I'd probably do whatever would come as a first instinct. If I had to sit there and think of the pros and/or cons of each side, I'd still end up unjustified in my judgment of both sides, even intentions may change. Part of being human. Therefore, it's not a question one can just sit and ponder about. One's thoughts can change his natural inclinations.

To me, love is immeasurable and the only reason it varies from one person to the other is because of our own justifications.

Peace

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
The love for your family is greater, in my opinion since this love is heavily implied via actions; you don't have to say I love you mom and dad etc.

For a spouse or g/f you usually have to say: ''I love you'' atleast once a week else you might get a divorce....

Not that I have experience in this matter.:D

[islamic]

I recently attended a lecture in which this question was asked. The question is..."Which is the better love, to lay down your life for family and friends, or to lay down your life for someone you don't know?"

Isn't this something what Christians go around and talk about? I think it is, it is something what Christians use to promote the "death" of Jesus for the sins of humankind.

btw, I think there is no better thing from laying down your life for Allah, if the situation requires.

[InToTheRain]

From the Islamic perspective love for family takes precedence after the love for Allah(SWT) and his final Massenger Mohammad(SAW).

[PIE]Abu Hurairah r.a. said : A man came to Rasulullah s.a.w. and said : "O Rasulullah, who of mankind is most entitled to the best of my companionship ?". Rasulullah said : "Your mother". He said :"Then who ?". Rasulullah said : "Your mother". He said :"Then who ?". Rasulullah said : "Your mother". He said :"Then who ?". Rasulullah said : "Your father". ( Bukhari, Muslim ) [/PIE]

Hence the saying Paradise lies under the feat of the Mother regardless of whether your parents are Muslim or Non-Muslim.

Also we are taught to keep strong family ties and the one who breaks it commits a Major sin:

[PIE]
"And those who break the covenant of Allah, after its ratification, and sever that which Allah has commanded to be joined (i.e. they sever the bond of kinship and are not good to their relatives) and work mischief in the land, on them is the curse, and for them is the unhappy home." - [Qur'an, Ar-Rad 13:25]

"Rahm (family ties) is a word derived from Ar-Rahman (The Compassionate One) And Allah says: 'I shall keep connection with him who maintains you and sever connection with him who severs you.'"
"Whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him maintain the bonds of kinship." [Sahih Al-Bukhari]

Abu Hurairah's Announcement

A young man once went to attend the weekly hadith lecture of the Sahabi Sayyidna Abu Hurairah, Radi-Allahu anhu but Abu Hurairah's routine opening announcement stopped him:

"If anyone sitting here has severed any ties of kinship (qata-ur-rahim), he should leave." (and repair his relationship).

Source
[/PIE]

[wilberhum]

I know I offen look at things differently.

But, What would you live for?

[tomtomsmom]

Isn't this something what Christians go around and talk about? I think it is, it is something what Christians use to promote the "death" of Jesus for the sins of humankind.

btw, I think there is no better thing from laying down your life for Allah, if the situation requires.

Sorry bro, but what are you talking about???

[islamic]

Sorry bro, but what are you talking about???

:)
well brother, the topic is "Which love is the better love?". And, the starting arguments are about Christ, and dieing and love ..

The question is..."Which is the better love, to lay down your life for family and friends, or to lay down your life for someone you don't know?"

Before it was considered more noble to defend family, friends, and community, but after the rise of Christianity, it became more noble to defend those whom you have never met.

Just for the sake of discussion, which do you believe is the more noble pursuit? To lay down one's life for your family, friends, community?..or for somebody you have never met? Is there a difference between Christianity and Islam on this matter?

So, that reminded me on some Christian missionaries and their talk about John 15:13 where they say, Jesus said: "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay his life down for his friend".

That's why I said some words about missionaries.

[snakelegs]

if i was suddenly in a situation where i could save a child by risking my life, it probably wouldn't matter one way or the other whether i was related to the child or not. an adult.... i don't think i would lay down my life to save an adult if i had time to think about it first.
i have often wondered - is there really such a thing as altruism? when we help the total stranger, is it not because it makes us feel good?
is there a type of selfishness that is not evil? (not to be confused with self-centeredness)
then there is laying down your life for a belief. muslims and jews are supposed to do this rather than commit idolatry. (dunno what the christian example would be). some will do this for god, and some for a political ideology. for me, this is very difficult to comprehend. and i think for people who practice a religion god comes before family. although i believe in god, i find this also impossible to understand.
i've wandered around with this and i apologize.
for a society, i think there must be a balance so i'm going to end my chatter with a quote i like from martin luther king, jr. which to me seems to be related.
"Communism forgets that life is individual. Capitalism forgets that life is social, and the kingdom of brotherhood is found neither in the thesis of communism nor the antithesis of capitalism but in a higher synthesis. It is found in a higher synthesis that combines the truths of both."
p.s. pretzels are much better than doritos.

[tomtomsmom]

[QUOTE]

:)
well brother, the topic is "Which love is the better love?". And, the starting arguments are about Christ, and dieing and love ..

I think you mean sister!

So, that reminded me on some Christian missionaries and their talk about John 15:13 where they say, Jesus said: "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay his life down for his friend".

That's why I said some words about missionaries.

Why does it always have to tun into muslim vs. christian or western vs. eastern? I think the question was made asking humans regardless of religion.

[Grace Seeker]

As I understand the question, it is NOT about what I would actually do in a given situation, but which action (performed perhaps by several others) do I consider to be more noble, which shows the greatest love?

To my way of thinking, it shows more love to give up your own life for a person that you don't even know. Thus if there was a fire in my house and I ran in to save my family, and my neighbor ran in to help me save them, and a passing stranger ran in to help us, though we are all doing exactly the same thing and may be equally heroic in the endeavors, the one who has truly shown the most nobility and the greatest level of alturism for others is the passing stranger.

[Ali.]

Both; they're equal; a life is a life. There's no difference in that.

[InToTheRain]

I agree that there is no such thing as true Altruism. But if you submit to God out of love, fear or for his rewards it still entails you love your family, become responsible, contribute to society, give to charity, enjoin the good and forbid evil. This also means sacrificing ones life for a stranger is a great act, an act of a Martyr infact:

"Anyone who saves one life, it is as if he has saved the whole of mankind and anyone who has killed another person except in case of murder or mischief on earth, it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind" (The Quran, 5:32)

So basically, one who truelly follows Islam tries to benefit everyone around him out of the desire to please Allah(SWT) so he may be looked upon favorably. what if your belief encourages and forces you to make sacrifices, would that be true altruism?

[islamic]

I think you mean sister!
Why does it always have to tun into muslim vs. christian or western vs. eastern? I think the question was made asking humans regardless of religion.

I am really sorry Sister, I didn't saw good your profile :(
I just remembered on some Christian missionaries, that's all. And quoted some Biblical text about greatest act of love.

[snakelegs]

I agree that there is no such thing as true Altruism. But if you submit to God out of love, fear or for his rewards it still entails you love your family, become responsible, contribute to society, give to charity, enjoin the good and forbid evil. This also means sacrificing ones life for a stranger is a great act, an act of a Martyr infact:

"Anyone who saves one life, it is as if he has saved the whole of mankind and anyone who has killed another person except in case of murder or mischief on earth, it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind" (The Quran, 5:32)

So basically, one who truelly follows Islam tries to benefit everyone around him out of the desire to please Allah(SWT) so he may be looked upon favorably. what if your belief encourages and forces you to make sacrifices, would that be true altruism?

not to me. you are a good member of a family and society at large because you want to please god. this is a good example of what i meant - altruism doesn't exist and selfishness can be a good thing. (as distinct from self-centeredness - when you think the world revolves around you and other people only matter if they are serving your purposes - i think self-centeredness would leave no room for god).
btw, i think it was not until the "big 3" religions that charity became a common practice. i'm not sure if the concept even existed until then.

[Jayda]

I recently attended a lecture in which this question was asked. The question is..."Which is the better love, to lay down your life for family and friends, or to lay down your life for someone you don't know?"

I posted this in the comparative religion section because I'm not sure where else to post it, plus it would be interested to hear people's views on the matter.

The man who gave the lecture was trying to make the point that Western civilization, going back to the fall of the Roman Empire and the introduction of Christianity, saw a dynamic change in what was more noble. Before it was considered more noble to defend family, friends, and community, but after the rise of Christianity, it became more noble to defend those whom you have never met. I found this to be fascinating, and I can't really give his presentation justice. His basic thesis was that it is "unnatural" to value those whom you have never met above family and friends, but that Western civilization, and to some extent the world, has seen this change in what is considered noble. The end result being that traditional family structures, community structures, and the concept of "shame" have been in decay for hundreds of years in the West.

Just for the sake of discussion, which do you believe is the more noble pursuit? To lay down one's life for your family, friends, community?..or for somebody you have never met? Is there a difference between Christianity and Islam on this matter?

hola

the Lord said that there was no greater love than to lay down ones life for their friends... so that is what i believe. i do not know what islam says on the matter so i do not know if there is a difference.

que Dios te bendiga

[al-muslimah]

Just for the sake of discussion, which do you believe is the more noble pursuit? To lay down one's life for your family, friends, community?..or for somebody you have never met? Is there a difference between Christianity and Islam on this matter?

My ummah is more dear to me than anything and yes I would sacrifice all that I can for this ummah which includes my family and friends in all the muslims in everywhere.Why not Allah has ordered us to sacrifice all that we can for him and it means the ummah anyone who runs away from this is a fool(jahil).

There is a big differnce in christianity( paul's religion not jesus) and Islam.BIG.

[kelamsa]

I guess family. No matter what, in a situation like that (under pressure and extremely emotional) i would go for the people with whom I've spent so much time...

[Qurratul Ayn]

Peace

In my opnion, I would say that love is greater for family and close, trusted and loyal friends (there aren't many opf those nowadays, I think) rather than those you have never met.

Although you may love others that you don't know as they are of your religion (if you want to) or all those innocent people that have died in wars for no fault or reason of their own, regardless of race or colour or religion, and just because of some arrogant and deluded people had made a decison of going to war, and you may have a certain love for them and grieve for them (If you want to)

But in my opinion the love for family and close, trusted and loyal friends is greater.

Peace to all

[Grace Seeker]

There is a big differnce in christianity( paul's religion not jesus) and Islam.BIG.

The question was not if there is a difference between Christianity and Islam, I think that is well recognized or there wouldn't be conflict between them.

The question was if there was a difference between Islam and Christianity on this particular issue. As you indicated you would lay down you life for the Ummah and in Christianity (John's account of Jesus' teaching not Paul's) we are taught Jesus said: "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.", do you believe there is a BIG difference between these two views?

[Malaikah]

:sl:

For me it is family first. Always.