Muslims belief about Trinity

[aniqueakhtar]

Asalam-o-alaikum

I have been answering many non-muslims and have been clearing doughts about Islam but now i am stuck at one question...For that i need an answer..
Please do respond to it and be a little quick,,,

Here is what the Non-Muslim asked me :

The main points i've been making of Koran's inaccuracies can be argued and analyzed variously, so I'll not be required to have an in depth knowledge of it.One of them is all about what is stated in the Bible, more precisely the trinity. The koran had erroneously included Mary as a member of the trinity (father/Jesus and Mary as if Christians worshipped a plurality of gods...) (Sura 5.116).Does it correspond to reality?

Here is what Quran says in 5.116 :

And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah.?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

I also own a Blog :
Discovering Islam
I have been able to answer all the questions...

This is one of the few moments when i have got stuck...:?

Thanks !!

Allah Hafiz

[Umar001]

Where does the Qur'an say that this is a trinity, that's my question.

It says, that Allah will ask JEsus whether JEsus said to his people, take me and my mum as gods besides Allah, now it is easy to think, theres three gods in that equasion so it means trinity, but this is not what it says, all it says that did JEsus give this command.

Now, some people do worship JEsus and Mary, remember that attributing something to Mary or Jesus which is only to Allah is worship of some kind. Thus praying to them is worship right or wrong?

I would also recommend you to a book, I forgot the title, but the author speaks of some arabs with different beliefs and I think some arabs did have such beliefs about JEsus and Mary

[aniqueakhtar]

Yes i have read somewhere that There are few Christians who also praise Mary...but i am not sure if it is authentic or not..

[Umar001]

Yes i have read somewhere that There are few Christians who also praise Mary...but i am not sure if it is authentic or not..

Authentic? I don't think the book was from an Islamic Source bro.

I mean, I even until now there are Christian who worship, in the Islamic meaning, Mary and Jesus. Thus this question, of whether Jesus told them to worship himself and his mother is valid still.

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[vpb]

:sl:

There are many people who worship Mary.

And most people think that worship is just to bow down or something like that to someone, in order to call it worship, but in Islam, worship can be ie. if you ask a person about something which only Allah can do.
And many people worship Mary, kneeling down in front of her statue , and asking help from her.

[Esther462]

:sl:

There are many people who worship Mary.

And many people worship Mary, kneeling down in front of her statue , and asking help from her.

It is only the Catholic Christians that worship Mary in statue fourm and personal don't like it.

The only one to be worshiped is God/Allah.

[Keltoi]

To Catholics, the ideal is asking Mary(or any other saint) to interceed on their behalf to God. It is not asking Mary for anything, it is more like asking Mary to be on your side.

Now, most non-Catholics have a problem with this kind of thing, and would never do it, but it is not "worshipping" Mary. Any Catholic would vehemently deny any such accusation.

It would indeed appear as if Muhammed believed Christians to "worship" Mary alongside Christ and God as a Trinity. The word trinity doesn't have to be stated to understand the meaning of that passage.

[Imam]

Asalam-o-alaikum

I have been answering many non-muslims and have been clearing doughts about Islam but now i am stuck at one question...For that i need an answer..
Please do respond to it and be a little quick,,,

Here is what the Non-Muslim asked me :


Here is what Quran says in 5.116 :


I also own a Blog :
Discovering Islam
I have been able to answer all the questions...

This is one of the few moments when i have got stuck...:?

Thanks !!

Allah Hafiz

:sl:


In a simple answer ,and as brother Al Habeshi wrote:

What is shirk according to the Quran?

is to set beside Allah partners(praying to them,seeking their help),even if they are not divine

to this day, the Catholic Christians consider Mary as the Mother of God and prayers are sent to her.


Dr. J. D. Fulton: The Lady of Roman Catholic Mariology is not even an invention of Roman Catholicism, but an adoption of a pagan conception which cursed Babylon, the prototype of the modern Babylon, centuries before Christ appeared as the son of Mary. Pictures of the mother and child were then worshiped. In almost all the devotional books of the Roman Catholic Church, the mother of God is crowned, sceptred and enthroned as the Queen of heaven. Pius IX, 1854, "I can never," said the Rev. M. Hobart Seymour, in his Evenings with the Romanists, page 254, "forget the shock I received when I first saw in their churches in Italy, the Virgin Mary crowned as Queen of heaven, seated on the same throne with Jesus crowned King of heaven. These were the God-man and God-woman enthroned alike. There was nothing to distinguish the one above the other."

The origin of this idolatry had its root in ancient mythology. Astarte of the Assyrians, Ashtoreth of the Sidonians and Bowaney of the Hindoos held the place that Mary occupies in the church of Rome. Greece had her Venus and Rome her Juno. The Diana of the Ephesians was a female, from whose body in every part there seemed to be issuing all the various animals of creation, symbolizing the conception and creation of all things. The Egyptians on the one hand and the Etrurians on the other had their Isis, the same symbol, a female divinity whom they regarded as "the mother of the gods." Jeremiah describes the Jews who had rebelled against God as making cakes to "the queen of heaven" (Jer. 7:18; 44:17), the title given to Juno in the Scandinavian theology. Rome has adopted this element of heathenism, this product of the carnal heart. In all its essential elements the Roman Etrurian and the Roman Catholic Mary brought from Babylon and adopted by papal Rome are in accord - Romanists are idolaters. In their churches are pictures of the Virgin that are worshiped because of the wonderful things professedly done by them. In St. Peter's is a picture of the Virgin bearing the inscription that it had miraculously shed blood when struck by a stone. A picture of the mother and child is at Lucca, of which it was affirmed that when some one flung a stone at the face of the child she transferred the child to the other arm and thus saved it from injury. Roman Catholic Mariologists defend this.

It is claimed by Romanists that the mother and child sustain the same relation in heaven which they have assigned them on earth. From Babylon, this worship of the mother and child spread to the ends of the earth. In Egypt, in Assyria, in China and in Greece and elsewhere, this form of worship suited to the carnal heart gained sway. Circe, the daughter of the sun, taken from Pompeii, has the nimbus or circle surrounding the head in the very same way as the head of the Roman Madonna is at this time adorned in the pictures given of this mistress of Rubens, this lady of Roman Catholic Mariology. Can any one believe this coincidence accidental?

:w:

[Imam]

[QUOTE=aniqueakhtar;871214]Asalam-o-alaikum

[Malaikah]

It would indeed appear as if Muhammed believed Christians to "worship" Mary alongside Christ and God as a Trinity. The word trinity doesn't have to be stated to understand the meaning of that passage.

If you are going to try to conclude about what he meant you would have to look at all the references of trinity in the Quran and hadiths. If other verses/hadiths clearly show that the Prophet Muhammad pbuh understood that the trinity was God, Jesus and holy spirit then only a fool would continue to claim that the verse here is referring to Mary as part of the trinity.

[Umar001]

To Catholics, the ideal is asking Mary(or any other saint) to interceed on their behalf to God. It is not asking Mary for anything, it is more like asking Mary to be on your side.

Now, most non-Catholics have a problem with this kind of thing, and would never do it, but it is not "worshipping" Mary. Any Catholic would vehemently deny any such accusation.

I think it is the ascribing of Godlike qualities that is the problem, a Muslim would argue that Mary is not all hearing, thus your prayers for intercession would be implying that she is, unless you hold the position that she is with you there, which in turn might lead to a different quality of God being given to her.

It would indeed appear as if Muhammed believed Christians to "worship" Mary alongside Christ and God as a Trinity. The word trinity doesn't have to be stated to understand the meaning of that passage.

But it is easy for us to put it into a context that we are familiar to. I do agree a word does not have to be present in order to understand that it is being spoken about, but I do think that we should be careful, because the Trinity is a big part of Christianity today and might have been then, it does not mean we assume that any writing which is close to it in concept is actually speaking of it.

[MustafaMc]

The quoted Qur'anic verse 5:116 does not define Mary as part of the Trinitarian belief, rather it merely states ...Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?"... The point is that Christians had taken Mary as a god. Wikipedia details many of the Christian (Catholic) beliefs and practices that Muslims see clearly as worship even today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blessed...Marian_prayers

This point is further clarified by Mawdudi's tafsir:

Tafhim al-Qur'an by Sayyid Abdul A'la Mawdudi

The Christians were not content merely with deifying Jesus and the Holy Spirit. They even turned Mary, the mother of Jesus, into a full-fledged object of worship. The Bible does not contain even the remotest suggestion that Mary was in any way either divine or superhuman. During the first three centuries after the Messiah, such a concept was totally alien to Christian thinking. Towards the end of the third century of the Christian era, however, some theologians of Alexandria employed, for the first time, the expression 'Mother of God' in connection with Mary. Subsequently, belief in Mary's divinity and the practice of Mariolatry began to spread among Christians. Even then, however, the Church was not prepared to accord official approval to this belief and denounced the Mariolaters as heretics. It was not until the Council of Ephesus in 431 that the Church officially used the expression 'Mother of God' for Mary. The result was that Mariolatry began to spread fast within the Church itself, so much so that, by the time of the revelation of the Qur'an, Mary had become so important a deity that she obscured even the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Statues of Mary adorned the cathedrals. She became the object of rites and worship. People addressed their prayers to her. She was regarded as the one who responded to people's supplications, who heeded people's grievances and complaints, who relieved them of distress, who provided support and succor to the helpless. For a devout Christian there could be no greater source of comfort and inner strength than the belief that he enjoyed the support and patronage of the 'Mother of God'. In the preamble of his code, Justinian had declared Mary to be the defender and supporter of his empire, and his general, Marses, sought Mary's guidance on the battlefield. Heraclius, a contemporary of the Prophet (pbuh), had a picture pf Mary on his standard and he was confident that by her grace the standard would never be lowered. Several centuries later the Protestants argued strongly against the Mariolatry during the movement which led to the Reformation. The Roman Catholic Church has, nevertheless, managed so far to cling to Mariolatry in one form or another.

The Qur'an clearly states that Jesus (as) is part of the Trinity belief, but it does not define either the "Father", the "Holy Spirit" or Mary as other parts of the Trinity.

Qur'an 5:72-73 Certainly they have disbelieved who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Maryam (Mary)." While Christ himself said: "O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Rabb and your Rabb." Whoever commits shirk (joins partners with Allah), Allah will deny him the paradise, and the hellfire will be his home. There will be no helper for the wrongdoers. Certainly they are unbelievers who say: "Allah is one of three in a Trinity." There is no god except One Allah. If they do not stop saying what they say, a painful punishment will befall the disbelievers among them.

Quran 4:171 O People of the Book! Do not transgress the limits of your religion. Speak nothing but the Truth about Allah. The Messiah, Isa (Jesus) the son of Maryam (Mary) was no more than a Rasool of Allah and His Word "Be" which He bestowed on Maryam and a Spirit from Him which took the shape of a child in her womb. So believe in Allah and His Rasools and do not say: "Trinity"." Stop saying that, it is better for you. Allah is only One Deity. He is far above from the need of having a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the Earth. Allah Alone is sufficient for protection.

[Whatsthepoint]

1. If it mentions Mary, why doesn't it mention the holy spirit and the saints?
2. Considering that on the day of the judgement the number of Mariolaters will be insignificant compared to the number of Christians I find it a bit odd that Allah willl focus on the Mariolaters...

[MustafaMc]

1. If it mentions Mary, why doesn't it mention the holy spirit and the saints?
2. Considering that on the day of the judgement the number of Mariolaters will be insignificant compared to the number of Christians I find it a bit odd that Allah willl focus on the Mariolaters...

I have minimal knowledge of Catholicisim since I grew up as a Baptist (Protestant) in southern USA, but I know that Catholics revere statues and images of Jesus on the cross and those of the Madonna, Mary. There is no image that I am aware of for the Holy Spirit and figures of saints are not universally displayed and revered.

The number of Mariolators is far from insignificant.

http://christianity.about.com/od/den...icschart_4.htm

Roman Catholic - Roman Catholicism is by far the largest worldwide Christian denomination. It is the majority religion of Italy, Spain, and nearly all Latin American countries. In America it is the largest individual Christian denomination, encompassing about 25 percent of the population.

http://christianity.about.com/od/den...sticschart.htm

• Anglican/Episcopalian - As of 1997, nearly 77 million in 164 countries.
• Assembly of God - 48 million.
• Baptist - 43 million.
• Lutheran - 66 million.
• Methodist - 11 million.
• Presbyterian - 75 million.
• Roman Catholic - More than a billion.

[yashal]

so what is easy to understand is that trinity is denied,absolutely.Hazrat Issa(PBUH) never said that HE(PBUH) is the son of ALLAH.All the concepts about trinity in christians are totally false......there is no point to stuck.......it is obvious.

[vpb]

To Catholics, the ideal is asking Mary(or any other saint) to interceed on their behalf to God. It is not asking Mary for anything, it is more like asking Mary to be on your side.

Now, most non-Catholics have a problem with this kind of thing, and would never do it, but it is not "worshipping" Mary. Any Catholic would vehemently deny any such accusation.

Keltoi,
I think you didn't really read my point.

I already said that worship in Islam is not defined same as in Christianity or any other religion.

So , by Islamic set of rules, what catholics do , is shirk, and we obviously don't care what others think. (we don't use someone's else definition of worship).

2:2. This is the Book (the Qur'ân), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

It would indeed appear as if Muhammed believed Christians to "worship" Mary alongside Christ and God as a Trinity. The word trinity doesn't have to be stated to understand the meaning of that passage.

you are speaking by looking at someone's shoes from a long distance.

[Whatsthepoint]

I have minimal knowledge of Catholicisim since I grew up as a Baptist (Protestant) in southern USA, but I know that Catholics revere statues and images of Jesus on the cross and those of the Madonna, Mary. There is no image that I am aware of for the Holy Spirit and figures of saints are not universally displayed and revered.

I think the holy spirit is portrayed as a dove and there are pictures (and statutes) of saints in every church. Each church has a patron, who is in most cases a saint, but can also be an angel, Mary etc. In most churches there is a large painting of the patron on the altar.
Saints are probably not as "revered" as much as Mary but they are still "revered".
Aynway, there is a clear distinction between the gods of the trinity and saints, Mary, angels. Muslims may feel that Catholics treat mary as god but that is their (false) understanding.
Allah's question will be adressed to Christians so I don't see the point in using islamic concepts of god/worship.

The number of Mariolators is far from insignificant.

http://christianity.about.com/od/den...icschart_4.htm

Catholics are not Mariolaters. If they were they would call Mary god(ess), which they don't.

[Jayda]

It is only the Catholic Christians that worship Mary in statue fourm and personal don't like it.

The only one to be worshiped is God/Allah.

hola

we ask for intercession, exactly the same as your practice of tawassul, we do not worship mary or statues as God.

que Dios te bendiga

[جوري]

what is the practice of tawasul?

[جوري]

venerating exalting, considering hallowed as with this prayer below, is to take another for a God other than Allah swt. That isn't monotheism and we don't have that in Islam.. it is called shirk!

Holiest Virgin, with all my heart I venerate you above all the Angels and Saints in paradise as the beloved Spouse of the Holy Spirit, and I consecrate to you my heart and all its affections, praying you to obtain for me from the Most Holy Trinity all the graces I need for my salvation. Hail Mary, etc.

(Taken from: Treasury of Novenas)

peace!

[Jayda]

what is the practice of tawasul?

Tawassul

venerating exalting, considering hallowed as with this prayer below, is to take another for a God other than Allah swt. That isn't monotheism and we don't have that in Islam.. it is called shirk!peace!

i don't see why it's any different than this prayer: "O Allah, we used to beseech You by means of (the du'a of) Your Prophet for rain and You would give us rain; now we beseech You by means of (the du'a of) the paternal uncle of Your Prophet, so grant us rain"

concerning your remark of taking Mary another God... we don't. i'm not certain how to put it any clearer, we do not believe Mary is God, like God or a god in her own right. we venerate (in the Catholic usage of the term) her and honor her as a holy person. afterall, if she was not sacred it wouldn't be "blasphemy" to insult her. isn't that so in islam? if they are not sacred, why is it "blasphemy" to draw pictures of your prophets?

Isn't Tawassul Just a Form of Shirk?

but i don't know about islamic beliefs of shirk and not shirk, those are just the articles i found. my point is simple, we do not worship mary, muslims are incorrect when they say that we do or have ever done so. i, the Pope, and every Catholic who does not wish to be excommunicated could testify every day until the end of the world that Mary is not God, like God or a goddess in her own right.

que Dios te bendiga

[chosen]

jesus never claimed to be god....#1 why as a muslim would you point to the bible and say jesus never claimed to be god..remember muslims claim the bible to be corrupt..why would you point to a corrupt book to prove anything..secondly Jesus did claim to be god....before abraham was I..I and the father are one...when you look upon me you look upon the father..all said by jesus....I know the trinity is complex..but so is god..the universe and everything else..the problems with muslims is they need everything to be spelled out..black and white..they need everything to be simple..lol life, god and this universe is not simple..mankind will never come close to fully understanding any of it especailly god....the father, the son and the holy spirt are three parts of a whole..and please dont say impossible..nothing is impossible to god..and as for the worship of mary..i was raised catholic..and never once prayed to Mary..I am born again christian today..and love the lord

[جوري]

Tawassul

all tawasul means is to beseach... that is the meaning of the word.. not an invocation of jesus or mary or paul, or snieder or mcain!

i don't see why it's any different than this prayer: "O Allah, we used to beseech You by means of (the du'a of) Your Prophet for rain and You would give us rain; now we beseech You by means of (the du'a of) the paternal uncle of Your Prophet, so grant us rain"

There is no such prayer in Islam.. did you just make that up?

concerning your remark of taking Mary another God... we don't. i'm not certain how to put it any clearer, we do not believe Mary is God, like God or a god in her own right. we venerate (in the Catholic usage of the term) her and honor her as a holy person. afterall, if she was not sacred it wouldn't be "blasphemy" to insult her. isn't that so in islam? if they are not sacred, why is it "blasphemy" to draw pictures of your prophets?

what does it mean to be the mother of God to you?

if (x+2)=3
there can only be one logical conclusion for X..don't you think?

as for what it is blasphemy, it is so with an soulful creature lest people take them for Gods, like christians have!

Isn't Tawassul Just a Form of Shirk?

I can't see your website.. and I have already explained what tawasul is.. I don't think you are very faimilar with Islamic rituals to quote me wiki or another site with such authority!

but i don't know about islamic beliefs of shirk and not shirk, those are just the articles i found. my point is simple, we do not worship mary, muslims are incorrect when they say that we do or have ever done so. i, the Pope, and every Catholic who does not wish to be excommunicated could testify every day until the end of the world that Mary is not God, like God or a goddess in her own right.

what makes you think the pope means anything to us? when it is visible to the naked eye, how your religion is practiced.. I already told you I went to catholic school, I have seen the girls pray by her statue not to mention do all sorts of of obscene things to it.. venerating in prayer other than Allah is to take partners unto him a cardinal sin..

look, I am not telling you, your beliefs are false or true..I suspect it doesn't make a difference to you, considering you are a practicing catholic.. what I am telling you is, from an Islamic point of view.. what you are doing is shirk, it doesn't reconcile with what we know to be monotheism.. but you are certainly welcome to believe it.. just don't draw these jejune comparabilities especially where none exist...I don't even have to be Muslim to see it... I suspect any monotheist or Jews, Manadeans or even agnostics who believe in God but don't enjoy mythology would view it the same exact way Muslims are..

que Dios te bendiga

peace to you!

[chosen]

mary gave birth to jesus..therefore she is the mother of god..sorry just because you dont understand the christian trinity or fail to accept it doesnt make it any less true..god came to earth in the form of jesus..born of the virgin mary..miracle or miracles a virgin gives birth...mircle of miricles god walks among us..

[جوري]

mary gave birth to jesus..therefore she is the mother of god..sorry just because you dont understand the christian trinity or fail to accept it doesnt make it any less true..god came to earth in the form of jesus..born of the virgin mary..miracle or miracles a virgin gives birth...mircle of miricles god walks among us..

There is nothing to understand about Greek mythology.. although I am more partial to Greek myth than christianity, in the end it is all about relativism...

in Greek Mythology Zeus had sex with the mortal woman Alcmene and begat Heracles...but Heracles wasn't really God was he? he didn't send himself in the form of an angel to make An- nunciation of his own birth, and then die to go unto himself to become one in all...the critics will have to pan this performance. It doesn't sit well with most logical human beings... lest you wish to concede that you are indeed a polytheist, let's face it 3 doesn't equal 1. something most children learn by the time they are in elementary school.

You want to believe God is like you and worship a man and even now can buy him from the arkansas wal-mart, be my guest, but don't come speak to us of truth, because from where we are standing it is a bit around the bend..


cheerio

[chosen]

you can chose or to believe what ever you like. franky I dont care. I am 100% sure my lord is lord. no mythology involved. I can however point to many a mythological entity in the advent of islm. I just wont because it will not change your mind about islam so why bother.

[chosen]

by the way you do forget that muslims believe in the virgin birth as well. One would say that is impossible..but again nothing is impossible with the lord

[جوري]

you can chose or to believe what ever you like. franky I dont care. I am 100% sure my lord is lord. no mythology involved. I can however point to many a mythological entity in the advent of islm. I just wont because it will not change your mind about islam so why bother.

I am glad you don't care.. and I am even glad(der) you are so strong in your 'lord or lords' ... but why are you here?

If you have something of substance you mayimpart it in the refutation section.. we have pretty much seen it all from Dawkin to sina and all have been debunked.. I don't think you'll manage to stifle more than a yawn from most members...

my own personal thoughts on the matter.. you are not studied or talented enough to bring anything short of the usual cut and pastes we are accustomed to seeing.. rather falling on the curve of a bumpkinly hick :coolious:


cheerio

[جوري]

by the way you do forget that muslims believe in the virgin birth as well. One would say that is impossible..but again nothing is impossible with the lord

you are not here to discuss Islamic beliefs rather your 'lord of lords'! what we believe of Jesus as far as you are concerned should be inconsequential..
so long as what you believe sits well with you, then that is all that should matter ey?

cheerio

[Amadeus85]

what makes you think the pope means anything to us? when it is visible to the naked eye, how your religion is practiced.. I already told you I went to catholic school, I have seen the girls pray by her statue not to mention do all sorts of of obscene things to it..

peace to you!

You are a muslim, so Im sure that you wouldnt like to judge your religion based on what muslims do.

[جوري]

You are a muslim, so Im sure that you wouldnt like to judge your religion based on what muslims do.

finding Allah SWT is a matter of the heart and a 'solo' spiritual journey.. at the end of the day, when a member(s) come here to write BS.. they are bound to read something they are not going to like..


from a very basic point and a very fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is the trinity. To you Islam is a false religion, a religion of the devil or whatever the flavor of the month.. to us christianity is taking a prophet (man) for a God, venerating false idols and building statues for them...

Not everyone goes to school, some people wake up in the morning and think that is their God, at walmart, or in the black baptist church, or in the white anglican church... to most christians it is making God more approachable or I don't know whatever their reasons...in Islam it is called shirk.. by the end of the day I'll remain Muslim insha'Allah and you'll remain a christian, each of us holding on to his/her views..

and that is ok...but I'll not tolerate insolence from an ignoramus with three posts under his belt and an agenda!


peace!

[Amadeus85]

finding Allah SWT is a matter of the heart and a 'solo' spiritual journey.. at the end of the day, when a member(s) come here to write BS.. they are bound to read something they are not going to like..


from a very basic point and a very fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is the trinity. To you Islam is a false religion, a religion of the devil or whatever the flavor of the month.. to us christianity is taking a prophet (man) for a God, venerating false idols and building statues for them...

Not everyone goes to school, some people wake up in the morning and think that is their God, at walmart, or in the black baptist church, or in the white anglican church... to most christians it is making God more approachable or I don't know whatever their reasons...in Islam it is called shirk.. by the end of the day I'll remain Muslim insha'Allah and you'll remain a christian, each of us holding on to his/her views..

and that is ok...but I'll not tolerate insolence from an ignoramus with three posts under his belt and an agenda!


peace!

Ok you are even right, but honestly, you think that it is allright to say things like-"I know what some girls did in catholic school" ? You know well that you won't find sinless person in this world. In neither of world's religion.I know that i am "per" troll for you, but sometimes even trolls say not stupid things. :D

[جوري]

Ok you are even right, but honestly, you think that it is allright to say things like-"I know what some girls did in catholic school" ? You know well that you won't find sinless person in this world. In neither of world's religion.I know that i am "per" troll for you, but sometimes even trolls say not stupid things. :D

actually I am finding the change in your attitude refreshing..I don't know if it happened consequent to that day I made the post, or you just reflected on your words a little and mellowed down? or found some commonalities and rather hang on to those than differences... whatever the case, I don't LABEL people for life if indeed I sense a change and sincerity...I am not that egoistical..nor do I enjoy having a clangorous need for self-righteousness humbug as some do!

As for what the girls did as in 'rubbing' the statue and using foul language, yes that isn't christianity... however kneeling before statues of Jesus or mary during mass as they were being handed sacraments or whatever bread they were receiving, was.. and that is mainly what I am talking about... it is ok that you want to defend that.. You can't honestly expect that people will agree with that anymore than you expect them to crucify you for it? It is parts of your rituals.. a ritual that we muslims consider shirk... that is all... it is what it is!


cheers

[MustafaMc]

I believe that the reason why images of animals and humans are forbidden in Islam is to prevent them from becoming objects of worship. Consider the very first of the 10 Commandments in the Bible.

Exodus 20:1-5 And God spake all these words, saying, I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God,

The One God spoken of in this passage is beyond our comprehension as has been stated already. This point illustrates one of the difficulties that I have encountered in Islam. Ihsan is perfection in religion as defined in the hadith where the Angel Gabriel questioned Prophet Muhammad, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Honestly, since I have absolutely no mental image of Allah when I perform salah 5X/day, it is very difficult for me to "worship Allah as if I see Him". Contrast this to when I was a Christian and partook of Communion, I clearly had an image of Jesus hanging on the cross as the object of my devotion for "having died for my sins".

This illustrates to me the blasphemous offense of ascribing partners with Allah. To say that God became man (Jesus) is to limit His Being down to something that we can comprehend and to say that God dwells within us (Holy Spirit) is to further limit Him as existing within something that is limited and imperfect. As a Muslim I worship the One God, the Most Compassionate, the Merciful, the Creator, the Cherisher, and the Sustainer of the universe - exalted is He above what they ascribe to Him!

[Keltoi]

I believe that the reason why images of animals and humans are forbidden in Islam is to prevent them from becoming objects of worship. Consider the very first of the 10 Commandments in the Bible.

Exodus 20:1-5 And God spake all these words, saying, I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any likeness [of any thing] that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them, for I Jehovah thy God am a jealous God,

The One God spoken of in this passage is beyond our comprehension as has been stated already. This point illustrates one of the difficulties that I have encountered in Islam. Ihsan is perfection in religion as defined in the hadith where the Angel Gabriel questioned Prophet Muhammad, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Apostle replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Honestly, since I have absolutely no mental image of Allah when I perform salah 5X/day, it is very difficult for me to "worship Allah as if I see Him". Contrast this to when I was a Christian and partook of Communion, I clearly had an image of Jesus hanging on the cross as the object of my devotion for "having died for my sins".

This illustrates to me the blasphemous offense of ascribing partners with Allah. To say that God became man (Jesus) is to limit His Being down to something that we can comprehend and to say that God dwells within us (Holy Spirit) is to further limit Him as existing within something that is limited and imperfect. As a Muslim I worship the One God, the Most Compassionate, the Merciful, the Creator, the Cherisher, and the Sustainer of the universe - exalted is He above what they ascribe to Him!

Yes, but you are breaking it down into "partners", whereas a Christian would not. Of course we've all been over this a hundred times and it doesn't seem to matter at all in the end. Islam has its view of what Christianity is, and Christianity has its view of what Islam is...and frankly I don't see that changing anytime soon. We aren't going to change anybody's mind about what faith they have embraced. Sometimes I wonder what use it really is to argue these same points over and over again.

[جوري]

new members keep bringing them up in a 'new and improved' style.. that is why.. we'd like to re-invent ourselves but look what we have to work with...

cheers!

[yashal]

I do'nt catch ur point yet.I don't understand what thee question was?
Sorry

[جوري]

to whom are you directing your question?

[MustafaMc]

Yes, but you are breaking it down into "partners", whereas a Christian would not. Of course we've all been over this a hundred times and it doesn't seem to matter at all in the end. Islam has its view of what Christianity is, and Christianity has its view of what Islam is...and frankly I don't see that changing anytime soon. We aren't going to change anybody's mind about what faith they have embraced. Sometimes I wonder what use it really is to argue these same points over and over again.

Yes, I agree that neither Muslim nor Christian is likely to change his/her mind as a result of these discussions. As a Muslim I feel a responsibility to defend my faith and to put forward what I believe is the Truth. Particularly since I live in a non-Muslim country, I share the responsibility of Ibrahim to witness and do what I can to dispel falsehood. Quran 21:52-54 Remember that occasion when Ibrahim asked his father and his people, "What are these images to which you are so devoted?" They replied, "We found our forefathers worshipping them." He said "Then certainly both you and your forefathers have been in manifest error."

We Muslims have clearly laid out what we see as shirk (ascribing partners to Allah) within Christianity. It seems that the Christian objective is to prove to us 1) that we are wrong in this perception, 2) that the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and yet fully God is not shirk and 3) that having statues of Jesus and Mary in places of worship is OK. You are not likely to prove to me that the Qur'an is wrong in stating that "they disbelieve who say Jesus is the Son of God" or to convince me that my very salvation depends on my affirming the very thing that I reject. My faith about Jesus remains as outlined in Qur'an 5:75 The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how we make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away!

[Jayda]

all tawasul means is to beseach... that is the meaning of the word.. not an invocation of jesus or mary or paul, or snieder or mcain!

hola,

when you address a dead person in prayer and apply honorifics to them and ask for them to speak to God for you, that's intercession, regardless of what the word means in arabic it's exactly the same thing.

There is no such prayer in Islam.. did you just make that up?

no, your second caliph did. see 4.b

replace the @ with an a.

what does it mean to be the mother of God to you?

the same thing mother means for anybody else, the woman that carried you and brought you into the world. when God decided to make Himself manifest and be among us (emmanuel) He chose a woman to bare Him into the world, Mary. when she did this and took care of Him as He grew she became His mother.

if (x+2)=3
there can only be one logical conclusion for X..don't you think?

as for what it is blasphemy, it is so with an soulful creature lest people take them for Gods, like christians have!

please connect your algebra problem to whatever point it is you are attempting to make...

and i do not understand why you are trying to pretend insulting mohamed is not blasphemy. on another thread we see that in sudan this is taken so seriously a woman faces 40 lashes for allowing kids in her class to name their teddy bears mohamed. it's part of your shahadah. contrary to what muslims often present you don't just have to believe in God without partners to go to heaven - you have to believe in mohamed as well.

even the forum rules agree with me, we are not allowed to say anything blasphemous about islamic prophets.

why then is it so different when we Catholics do it?

I can't see your website.. and I have already explained what tawasul is.. I don't think you are very faimilar with Islamic rituals to quote me wiki or another site with such authority!

until several hours ago you didn't even know what Tawasul was, i had to link you to a wikipedia article. i don't understand why i should consider you an expert now, or why a translation of the word from arabic to english stands as a definition.

my article was this:

http://qa.sunnip@th.com/issue_view.a...D=4767&CATE=24

replace the @, with an 'a.' for some terribly convenient reason my link was changed last time, and it completely destroys your argument.

what makes you think the pope means anything to us? when it is visible to the naked eye, how your religion is practiced.. I already told you I went to catholic school, I have seen the girls pray by her statue not to mention do all sorts of of obscene things to it.. venerating in prayer other than Allah is to take partners unto him a cardinal sin..

well... you write letters to him and burn his effigy when you get angry. so i assume that muslims recognize him as a figurehead for our religion, consequently when he says something i assume it you would consider it authoritative. but you went to three years of Catholic school so you probably know more.

we do not take Mary for God or like God. whatever it is you seem to think you have seen is simply not what you interpreted it to be. it's okay to accept you are not 100% right all the time.

look, I am not telling you, your beliefs are false or true..I suspect it doesn't make a difference to you, considering you are a practicing catholic.. what I am telling you is, from an Islamic point of view.. what you are doing is shirk, it doesn't reconcile with what we know to be monotheism.. but you are certainly welcome to believe it.. just don't draw these jejune comparabilities especially where none exist...I don't even have to be Muslim to see it... I suspect any monotheist or Jews, Manadeans or even agnostics who believe in God but don't enjoy mythology would view it the same exact way Muslims are..



peace to you!

it's not that you're telling me whether my beliefs are false or true. that wouldn't make a difference to me. it's that you are telling me what my beliefs are that bothers me, i'm sure the islamic opinion is that we commit shirk. that's fine, it's just a meaningless arabic word to me. but at least understand that your rationale is based upon a complete mischaracterization of our practices and beliefs.

que Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

and whichever mod is editing my posts,

please stop changing the links i provide, they are important so that muslims understand how i understand their beliefs, and in making my own points about the similarity of catholic and muslim beliefs on these issues. i understand the desire to allow the muslim to 'win' but this is unacceptable and i won't participate if this continues.

que Dios te bendiga

[جوري]

hola,

when you address a dead person in prayer and apply honorifics to them and ask for them to speak to God for you, that's intercession, regardless of what the word means in arabic it's exactly the same thing.

Again, I don't understand what you mean here? perhaps you know something of Islamic prayers that the rest of us are unaware of? we don't ask anyone to intercede for us.. we pray to Allah directly.. prayer for us is different than prayer for you.. yours is more in concert with supplication than an actual ritual!

no, your second caliph did. see 4.b

replace the @ with an a.

Again, another failed website... I am starting to think you are doing it on purpose to prove a nonexisting point of your imagination?

the same thing mother means for anybody else, the woman that carried you and brought you into the world. when God decided to make Himself manifest and be among us (emmanuel) He chose a woman to bare Him into the world, Mary. when she did this and took care of Him as He grew she became His mother.

A mother of God means Goddess, and I am not sure where the chain would end...

please connect your algebra problem to whatever point it is you are attempting to make...

I thought I did? one doesn't equal three, three doesn't equal one it is simple arithmetic..!

and i do not understand why you are trying to pretend insulting mohamed is not blasphemy. on another thread we see that in sudan this is taken so seriously a woman faces 40 lashes for allowing kids in her class to name their teddy bears mohamed. it's part of your shahadah. contrary to what muslims often present you don't just have to believe in God without partners to go to heaven - you have to believe in mohamed as well.

believe in him as a messenger of God not his son or his mother or his uncle or God himself.. and yes we try to show some respect.. so he doesn't end up in walmart next to the "God' Jesus!

even the forum rules agree with me, we are not allowed to say anything blasphemous about islamic prophets.

So?

why then is it so different when we Catholics do it?

You are having a difficult time distinguishing the two. respect and worship!

until several hours ago you didn't even know what Tawasul was, i had to link you to a wikipedia article. i don't understand why i should consider you an expert now, or why a translation of the word from arabic to english stands as a definition.

atwasul ila Allah wa7do. You want to come teach me Arabic? or do you enjoy making a fool of yourself?

my article was this:

http://qa.sunnip@th.com/issue_view.a...D=4767&CATE=24

replace the @, with an 'a.' for some terribly convenient reason my link was changed last time, and it completely destroys your argument.

lol.. an expert on Arabic and always with a handy article.. the problem is this is the message we get each time we open them Oops! We can't find the webpage you're looking for
Here are some suggestions:


so how about you try harder, because I don't understand what you are trying to say replace a Z with a Q.. do you have a point pls?

well... you write letters to him and burn his effigy when you get angry. so i assume that muslims recognize him as a figurehead for our religion, consequently when he says something i assume it you would consider it authoritative. but you went to three years of Catholic school so you probably know more.

What are you trying to say? I think my knowledge from catholic school can hardly compare to your google failed websites..

we do not take Mary for God or like God. whatever it is you seem to think you have seen is simply not what you interpreted it to be. it's okay to accept you are not 100% right all the time.

You can take her for whatever you want, it is inconsequential to me.. the prayer asking her to intercede is shirk, calling her a mother of God is also shirk. You don't believe that, it is shirk, you believe that is proper worship and dear lady you are so entitled.. but it will not change the fact that it is what it is and fairly obvious to the naked eye!

it's not that you're telling me whether my beliefs are false or true. that wouldn't make a difference to me. it's that you are telling me what my beliefs are that bothers me, i'm sure the islamic opinion is that we commit shirk. that's fine, it's just a meaningless arabic word to me. but at least understand that your rationale is based upon a complete mischaracterization of our practices and beliefs.

it isn't a 'mis-characterization' it is what you do.. it is what there. A statue of Jesus in every church.. worship of Jesus as God, asking his mother to intercede, God sending himself as a spirit to take himself to the womb' depart from the world a period of nine months, and the time he dies to go to another God up above and still considering that monotheism. That dear lady doesn't require much studying, it is a basic tenet of christianity.. heck, it is even the title of this thread.. are you going to deny it now? Just accept your beliefs and move on, I hate arguing back and forth with adolescent comparisons, and I especially detest when fairy tales make it to religion...

I hope we are done here? I have no interest in dancing around the same point, you bringing failed websites on every thread to make an assimilation based on fallacious reasoning!

que Dios te bendiga

peace!

[جوري]

and whichever mod is editing my posts,

please stop changing the links i provide, they are important so that muslims understand how i understand their beliefs, and in making my own points about the similarity of catholic and muslim beliefs on these issues. i understand the desire to allow the muslim to 'win' but this is unacceptable and i won't participate if this continues.

que Dios te bendiga

No one is changing your posts.. I think it is under handed of you to write so. frankly yesterday I saw your post a minute from you writing it, and it still wasn't working then!
And it still not working today!.. and I guarantee it is because you are either quoting from a fraudulent website which would naturally be asterisked, in other words you are attempting to disseminate false information, which anyone can attest that you are, because I have already told you, such prayers don't exist in Islam! Or you genuinely don't know what you are talking about and just attempted in a haste manner to find any shady article on the web to make a moot point!

cheers!

[Jayda]

hola,

i'm not going to argue about whether i am an honest person with you. i am. i posted working links from reputable sources and i see that each time somebody has gone back and removed parts of them. you can still access them from the bottom of the wikipedia entry the mods graciously allowed me to post.

concerning the prayer i posted you can just google it. mods permitting, you can see another copy of it on this:

[sectarian link removed]

toward the bottom.

i am not going to argue with you about Catholicism. you're wrong for the reasons i explained, and there is no sense discussing this issue with you anymore. i'm not allowed to post information that goes against anything muslims say, you're not being civil and you aren't listening to me. i don't have the personality toenjoy being involved in that kind of stacked discussion.

que Dios te bendiga

[- Qatada -]

I had to remove the link because it was sectarian, sorry. :) Yes, the issue of seeking aid through dead saints is a part of Shi'ism, but not mainstream Sunni Islam - which this forum runs on.



Regards.

[Jayda]

qatada,

this is unacceptable. the other articles i provided were all sunni websites and about sunni, not shia islam. if you would at least link to the major websites, not even the articles, you could see that they are sunni. and why have you taken so long to note that my posts are being changed? you made me appear to be a liar or some sort of incompentent. and why am i allowed to be called a liar in PA's posts, isn't that breaking a forum rule?

i'm being patient explaining what Catholics believe so that people don't hold unfair stereotypes, but you and PA have tested my patience greatly by editing my articles and calling me names. this is not a fair or reasonable discussion.

que Dios te bendiga

[- Qatada -]

Jayda, the reason why them links are actually blocked out is simply because they are sectarian and against the mainstream Islam. They wouldn't be blocked or filtered if it was agreeing with the forums.

Islam actually called against calling out to dead people and calling out to God Alone, whether its for intercession or for any prayer. It's clearly stated in the Qur'an:

"And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): So invoke not any one along with Allah;

[Qur'an 72: 18]

It's that simple, God can only benefit you - so ask of Him. You don't need to invoke anyone else besides Him. It's so simple, no-one needs to make the religion of God complicated.




Peace.

[Jayda]

Jayda, the reason why them links are actually blocked out is simply because they are sectarian and against the mainstream Islam. They wouldn't be blocked or filtered if it was agreeing with the forums.

Islam actually called against calling out to dead people and calling out to God Alone, whether its for intercession or for any prayer. It's clearly stated in the Qur'an:

"And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): So invoke not any one along with Allah;

[Qur'an 72: 18]

It's that simple, God can only benefit you - so ask of Him. You don't need to invoke anyone else besides Him. It's so simple, no-one needs to make the religion of God complicated.




Peace.

hola,

sunnipath identifies itself as a sunni webpage. from it's about section it says:

Our knowledge is reliable because our teachers have been formally trained and authorized to transmit knowledge by leading scholars of the Muslim heartlands. They are meticulous in their conformity to the time-honored orthodoxy of Sunni Islam while sensitive to the circumstances of Muslims living in the modern world

is considered a very valuable resource on other sunni webpages. why should i ignore this simply because you have decided by fiat that their answers regarding tawassul do not conform to your version of sunni islam? and why should i accept that your beliefs about islam are correct simply because you are a muslim when you (collectively) insist that my beliefs about Catholicism are wrong despite the fact i am a Catholic?

and again, why did you take so long to at least acknowledge that my links were being removed? and why is it okay for PA to call me a liar? i agree that i looked very foolish and perhaps even like a liar when i quoted links that magically disappeared, but why would you stand idly by knowing there was a perfectly reasonable explanation for this when PA started to say that?

gracias

[MustafaMc]

I had to remove the link because it was sectarian, sorry. :) Yes, the issue of seeking aid through dead saints is a part of Shi'ism, but not mainstream Sunni Islam - which this forum runs on.

I agree with this assessment that Tawasuul is not a part of mainstream Islam. I have a book on Tawasuul, but since I had major trouble agreeing with the concept of seeking nearness to Allah through a "holy" intermediary, I read only a few pages before putting it away. My perception was (as Jayda indicated) that it is too close to shirk for me to be comfortable with. I pray directly to Allah without any intercessor.

[- Qatada -]

hola,

sunnipath identifies itself as a sunni webpage. from it's about section it says:

I've explained through PM:

They may call themselves sunni since the people of the Prophetic guidance (Sunnah) have been labelled as the saved group by the Prophet himself.

However, those whose way we follow is the way of the Qur'an, the Sunnah [Prophetic guidance] and the understanding of his companions, since they were the direct recipients of the message. It's the final concept which many of the other groups who claim to be sunnis stray from. Which includes those sites which you linked.

is considered a very valuable resource on other sunni webpages. why should i ignore this simply because you have decided by fiat that their answers regarding tawassul do not conform to your version of sunni islam?

It's part of the forum policy:

No sectarian issues allowed. We are promoting the unity of Islam. Allah (Exalted is He) said in Surah Al-An'âm, verse 159:


Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects), you (O Muhammad -- Peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) have no concern in them in the least. Their affair is only with Allâh, Who then will tell them what they used to do. 15% warning

http://www.islamicboard.com/faq/foru...warning_levels

and why should i accept that your beliefs about islam are correct simply because you are a muslim when you (collectively) insist that my beliefs about Catholicism are wrong despite the fact i am a Catholic?

I'm not compelling you to accept my faith, however - the fact that it is the most purest monotheistic faith in the world, then i'm sure that this is the most correct, and i desire that you are guided, the same way you desire that for us all. However, i think we should simply pray to God alone without any intermediaries and ask Him to guide us all aright to what He loves.

and again, why did you take so long to at least acknowledge that my links were being removed? and why is it okay for PA to call me a liar? i agree that i looked very foolish and perhaps even like a liar when i quoted links that magically disappeared, but why would you stand idly by knowing there was a perfectly reasonable explanation for this when PA started to say that?

gracias

I'm sorry on sister PA's behalf, i never responded earlier since i only came online around half an hour ago.




Peace.

[Jayda]

PA can apologize for herself if she feels like she wants to. i don't want apologies i just wanted people to know i was not being dishonest. i have absolutely no desire to continue this conversation though, it exists to spread lies about christianity and clearly any attempt on our part to explain otherwise is not allowed, not welcome and not heard.

[جوري]

Thank you br.Qatada

Jayda.. I have nothing to apologize for. You have quoted links that don't reconcile with Islamic beliefs 90% of Muslims are sunni.. NO ONE edited the sites for you, it was automatically done by the forum the same way if you were to write w a h a b i, it would automoatically be censored. That should have been your clue to the legitimacy of the websites you bring to make a point.

And the point in and of itself is a strawman..a very basic fundamental difference between our religions is that you take Jesus for God or the son of God, and we don't,these beliefs don't reconcile with monotheism or with Islam.. that is shirk.... it might not mean anything to you as you have stated just an Arabic word.. but it bewilders me how you are so familiar with 'tawassul' but not familiar with shirk?
Islamic jurisprudence and fiqh isn't subject to conversation between two lay people.. one who is learning and the other of a different religion all together wanting to draw similarities where none exist


peace!

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Here's a really good link about tawassul, with authentic info from the Qur'an and Sunnah and the understanding of the companions of the Prophet:

Tawassul:
http://islamtoday.com/show_quest_sec...&sub_cat_id=71



Here's one article:

http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...main_cat_id=13

The Prophet (peace be upon him) warned us against such practices, even with respect to his own grave.


`Â’ishah relates the following:

When death approached Allah’s Messenger, he began putting a sheet of his on his face. When he became hot and distressed because of it, he would remove it and say: “Allah’s curse is upon the Jews and the Christians, because they took the graves of their Prophets as places of worship.” The Prophet was warning the Muslims against what they had done. [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (1/112, 4/144, 5/140) and Sahîh Muslim (1/377)]

Had it not been for the fear that it would be taken as a mosque, his grave would have been in an open place. [Sahîh Muslim (1/376)]

The Prophet (peace be upon him) was so stern in prohibiting people from taking graves as places for Allah’s worship, cursing those who did so, because it is a practice that ultimately leads people to polytheism.

So what can we say about those people who actually direct their worship to the denizens of the graves, offer sacrifices to them, supplicate to them, swear oaths by them, or circumambulate their graves?


Al-Qurtubî writes, commenting on this matter:

Therefore, the Muslims went to great lengths to block the tendency to do so at the grave of the Prophet (peace be upon him). They raised the dirt walls around it high, completely surrounding it and blocking off the entrances to it. Then they feared that the location of his grave might be turned into a direction for prayer, because it was in the direction the worshippers face and some of them might get the idea that facing it was an act of worship. For this reason, they built two walls at the northern corners of the grave and placed them at a slant so that they would form a triangle with on of its corners pointing to the North. In this way, no one could be able to directly face the grave while making his prayer. [Al-Qurtubî, al-Mufhim lima Ashkal min Talkis Kitâb Muslim (2/128)]

This shows us how Allah protected the grave of the Prophet (peace be upon him) as an answer to his prayer when he said: “O Allah! Do not let my grave become an idol that people worship.”[al-Muwatta’ as narrated by Yahyâ b. Yahyâ al-Laythî (p. 414) The hadîth is related by `Atâ’ b. Yasâr with a discontinuous chain of narration.] Those who insist on directing themselves to it can only do so with their hearts, because it is quite impossible to actually face it or even reach it.


If a person merely visits the graves of these saints and considers doing so a pious act, then that person is engaged at the very least in a very serious form of innovation.

If that person asks something of the people buried there, calls upon them, bows or prostrates to them, or believes that they can benefit him in any way, then he is undoubtedly committing polytheism of the worst kind.

[MustafaMc]

i don't see why it's any different than this prayer: "O Allah, we used to beseech You by means of (the du'a of) Your Prophet for rain and You would give us rain; now we beseech You by means of (the du'a of) the paternal uncle of Your Prophet, so grant us rain"

The question is whether or not the person being asked to make a supplication on one's behalf is alive or dead. Why would one beseech al-Abbaas ibn 'Abdul-Muttalib (Prohet's uncle) to pray on their behalf rather than the Prophet with clearly a higher status before Allah? The obvious answer is that Prophet Muhammad had already died; whereas, his uncle was still living.

Al-Bukhari Whenever drought threatened them, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab, used to ask Al-Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say, "O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah! Bless us with rain." And so it would rain.

Since we know that it is acceptable to pray for other people, to ask someone living that is considered to be more pious to pray on one's behalf in addition to their own supplications should also be acceptable.

I recently read that acceptable means of Tawassul are by: 1) the Names and Attributes of Allah, 2) righteous deeds and actions, and 3) supplications made by another living righteous person.

Those who are more knowledgeable will kindly correct any errors.