Right Ho! Paradise...Now what?

[barney]

Ok. The last day has come and gone, everyone is either away in paradise or hell.

Now what?
My question's are.
1)Can we bear it?
We are in paradise for eternity...thats going to be utterly unbearable.Imagine living in a place where there is no hardship, no challenge, no anger, no future, no hope, no sleep, no change..for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...without cease.
2) Whats the point?
God created us to pass his test so that we can live forever in bliss if we do his will. well here we are , his will has been done and he's pleased with us. Now what do we do. Whats our purpose, whats the point of anything. Are we in paradise to eternally praise him still, if so whats the point in that? It's like creating your own eternal-self cheering show. The whole of creation was made for us,just so that we could praise god and pass the test. Do we have any other use?
3) Might as well throw away reality now?
God has whipped up in 6 days a pretty infinate universe with Trillions of stars with Gigaparsecs of space. Lets say that he set up a few other planets as well with humans on it to pass his tests. The day has come and gone. Everything that he's created, is it all going to fizzle out now? It's of no use anymore.

[alcurad]

since it eid probably not many people who can answer are around. anyway, I've actually thought much along your first point myaalef in the past,and it seems to me that first of all the interpretation of paradise and hell have somewhat deviated from what they originally meant. it does seem so boring if how you describe it is actually how it is, I'm not the best person to answer this but atleast consider that if the creator exists then he would know more than you would, and hell set things according to that.

[alcurad]

spelling mistakes,,,,sorry, I was writing too quickly

[snakelegs]

i love life and am thankful to god for my life.
that said, i never found the concept of eternal life (be it in heaven or hell) in the least bit appealing.

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[Pygoscelis]

Eternal life sounds more like a curse than a blessing. Long life sounds nice, but eternal? I think you should be careful what you wish for. I'd go stir crazy after a century or two.

[Muezzin]

Paradise is whatever you want it to be. So if you became bored with it, you'd simply change it to your liking. And working hard in your life so that you achieve eternal enlightenment? Surely that would be blissful. Most of the times, rewards are only truly pleasurable if the mountain you had to climb to get them were huge. So the harder you work in your life to be a good person, the more rewarding it will be, both in this physical life, and in the spiritual hereafter, if you believe in it.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

1)Can we bear it?
We are in paradise for eternity...thats going to be utterly unbearable.Imagine living in a place where there is no hardship, no challenge, no anger, no future, no hope, no sleep, no change..for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...without cease.

THE HORROR OF IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ..... lol are you serious?!

you do know boredome- growing weary - getting tired - lack of excitement interest - DULLNESS are all worldly feelings and emotions and in heaven they will have no part. Pure peace and contentment, purest desires always fulfilled, each experience better then the last... this is heaven.

May Allaah grant all of us (muslims) jannah !

2) Whats the point?
God created us to pass his test so that we can live forever in bliss if we do his will. well here we are , his will has been done and he's pleased with us. Now what do we do. Whats our purpose, whats the point of anything. Are we in paradise to eternally praise him still, if so whats the point in that? It's like creating your own eternal-self cheering show. The whole of creation was made for us,just so that we could praise god and pass the test. Do we have any other use?

you chill , refer to my post above

3) Might as well throw away reality now?
God has whipped up in 6 days a pretty infinate universe with Trillions of stars with Gigaparsecs of space. Lets say that he set up a few other planets as well with humans on it to pass his tests. The day has come and gone. Everything that he's created, is it all going to fizzle out now? It's of no use anymore.

does it matter?! if God wants to finish with something that is up to him !


Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Eternal life sounds more like a curse than a blessing. Long life sounds nice, but eternal? I think you should be careful what you wish for. I'd go stir crazy after a century or two.

Depends entirely on the way you live.

silly example but i'll use it, people who fall in love talk about eternity etc and they "mean it !" but the thing is, its due to that strong spark they get inside during those moments they are near to one another. So imagine this feeling but it never fades and only gets stronger and purer.

If you can understand that even slightly, then know heaven has unimaginable times stronger feelings and emotions, which always grow stronger.

Whats your thought now?!

[Muezzin]

'Only boring people get bored'

Though I defy people to believe that statement while watching paint dry. No sniffing allowed!

[north_malaysian]

I dont think the paradise is made for faithfuls to be bored....

[BANANA]God is the Most Creative!!![/BANANA]

[MustafaMc]

i love life and am thankful to god for my life.
that said, i never found the concept of eternal life (be it in heaven or hell) in the least bit appealing.

I am glad to see that you have a thankful heart and belief in God. The concept of Paradise has value only if one believes in a resurrection from the dead and eternal life in basically one of two places. Without that belief neither Heaven nor Hell have any value whatsoever - at least this side of Judgement Day (another belief). However, if there is in fact a life after death, I am certain that one's perspective will change instantly with that realization, albeit too late to do any good. Peace.

[Gator]

Is there any TV?

[crayon]

Is there any TV?

If you want there to be.

But dude come on, who would watch TV in PARADISE??:giggling:

[Gator]

Depends whats on.

[crayon]

Well technically, whatever you please...

[Muezzin]

Does anyone else think this debate is fundamentally too metaphysical to be taken seriously for any substantial length of time? I mean no disrespect to any participants, it's just the topic is becoming understandably farcical.

Next up: Angels. How do they get their wings so fluffy?

[crayon]

Yeah, you're right. I'm done.:)
(I just learned a new word. Farcical.)

[Keltoi]

I agree the discussion is farcical, but another thought occurred to me. We don't really know what our existence will consist of, how we will percieve it, or how conscious we will be of the concept of time.

[Resigned]

I agree the discussion is farcical, but another thought occurred to me. We don't really know what our existence will consist of, how we will percieve it, or how conscious we will be of the concept of time.

I’d submit that you already know the answer to that question. What does anyone remember before they were born, anything?

No, of course not. It’s pretty self evident. Pre-natal and post-mortem are indistinguishable from one another.

[Talha777]

I will try my best to answer the three questions using Quran as my backup:

Ok. The last day has come and gone, everyone is either away in paradise or hell.
Now what?
My question's are.
1)Can we bear it?
We are in paradise for eternity...thats going to be utterly unbearable.Imagine living in a place where there is no hardship, no challenge, no anger, no future, no hope, no sleep, no change..for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...without cease.

The Quran says:

Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure
(At Tauba 9:21)

So in Paradise the delights and happiness of its inmates will endure forever. The people of Paradise will find absolutely nothing to complain about:

on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
(Al Baqarah 2:62)

So this is the promise of Allah that the Believers will be content and have nothing to fear or grieve, theirs will only be eternal happiness.

for Allah never fails in His promise
(Al Imran 3:9)

The problem you are having is that you are comparing the temporal pleasures of this life. It is true there are many things in this world which people desire and think will bring them lasting happiness, but when they achieve what they desire they soon lose their happiness and want more and more. So in this world man is never truly content and at peace. But the reality and nature of Paradise is altogether different:

The (material) things which ye are given are but the conveniences of this life and the glitter thereof; but that which is with Allah is better and more enduring: will ye not then be wise?
(Al Qasas 28:60)

2) Whats the point?
God created us to pass his test so that we can live forever in bliss if we do his will. well here we are , his will has been done and he's pleased with us. Now what do we do. Whats our purpose, whats the point of anything. Are we in paradise to eternally praise him still, if so whats the point in that? It's like creating your own eternal-self cheering show. The whole of creation was made for us,just so that we could praise god and pass the test. Do we have any other use?

The point of human existence is to worship Allah:

I have only created jinns and men, that they may serve me
(Adh Dhariyat 51:56)

And so worship of Allah never ceases as long as men and jinn exist because that is our sole function and purpose. In Paradise the reality of worship may be different from in this world, but the definition of worship remains the same, submitting to and obeying Allah.

So the important thing to know is Allah has promised us a reward if we obey and submit to Him in this world, and that reward is the best of rewards. No one can dispute that the best of rewards endures forever. Allah is not in need of our prayers and our worship of Him so to Him it makes no difference, so this should answer your question "do we have any other use?", since we never have any use in the first place. Allah is in no need to use anything.

3) Might as well throw away reality now?
God has whipped up in 6 days a pretty infinate universe with Trillions of stars with Gigaparsecs of space. Lets say that he set up a few other planets as well with humans on it to pass his tests. The day has come and gone. Everything that he's created, is it all going to fizzle out now? It's of no use anymore.

Again Allah has no need for a "use". He created this vast universe with its millions of stars, planets, multitude of galaxies etc. Indeed it is a sign of His greatness and His Power and a sign that it is He alone that is to be worshipped and submitted to, and not any of His creation. Allah says "be" and it is, there is no such thing as "hard work" for Him.

Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah.-while all creatures in the heavens and on earth have, willing or unwilling, bowed to His Will (Accepted Islam), and to Him shall they all be brought back.
(Al Imran 3:83)

[Resigned]

Ok. The last day has come and gone, everyone is either away in paradise or hell.

Now what?
My question's are.
1)Can we bear it?
We are in paradise for eternity...thats going to be utterly unbearable.Imagine living in a place where there is no hardship, no challenge, no anger, no future, no hope, no sleep, no change..for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...without cease.

I suppose the phrase “living in a place…” needs some clarification. I’m not aware of any description of just how we “live on”. I suppose the various religious mythos suggest that a soul lives on but that excludes the physical body. Perhaps it’s the ego or some other metaphysical entity that continues to exist.

But how egotistical of theists that they believe their ego is so valuable to humanity that it must exist forever.

I don't mistake a corruption of organization (religion) with a belief in any gods. Many people with no outward religious beliefs believe there is a god (although believing in a god by definition makes one religious in the strictest sense of the word). I go a step further, seeing that what we as humans would wish to be true (that there is a god who will take care of us, that he loves us, that we live forever after we die, that evil will be judged, etc.) doesn't translate into what really is, which is reality, a natural world, with natural (if sometimes mysterious but always really cool) explanations.

2) Whats the point?
God created us to pass his test so that we can live forever in bliss if we do his will. well here we are , his will has been done and he's pleased with us. Now what do we do. Whats our purpose, whats the point of anything. Are we in paradise to eternally praise him still, if so whats the point in that? It's like creating your own eternal-self cheering show. The whole of creation was made for us,just so that we could praise god and pass the test. Do we have any other use?

The “pass the test” requirement seems to be a logical fallacy that theists buy into. Theists assign rather specific and identifiable attributes for a “being” which is beyond our understanding. So why assign them? Why ascribe these various attributes to a god(s) you claim is beyond our conception. If, as you testified, god(s) is beyond our conception, your attributes describing him/her may be completely wrong. Is this true or not true? Unless you are going to enlighten us with some special knowledge, god(s) have had no direct verifiable communication with any known human. Is this true or not true? You utterly contradict yourself claiming god(s) is/are beyond characterizations, yet, you describe a myriad of such characterizations.

3) Might as well throw away reality now?
God has whipped up in 6 days a pretty infinate universe with Trillions of stars with Gigaparsecs of space. Lets say that he set up a few other planets as well with humans on it to pass his tests. The day has come and gone. Everything that he's created, is it all going to fizzle out now? It's of no use anymore.

Even if the "gods" chose to intervene out of pity for us poor creatures hopelessly spinning wild conjectural theories about who and what we are, and where we came from, what would these gods tell us? That our existence is predetermined? Maybe they would tell us that all our dogmatic proclamations were utterly unfounded, and we worshiped beings who are just as constrained to the unalterable laws of reality as we are, even if there is a difference in dimensions, and space/time continuum.

Again, we are left to conjecture what this god would or would not think of itself and “its” own motives, but do we think of ourselves as godlike? I realize that some people certainly would, but I hope that we collectively would not. I don't think scientists culture bacteria in petri dishes all the while thinking they are somehow gods over their various bacterium. If anything, they are completely disinterested in the bacterium except as how it pertains to whatever experiment they are pursuing; in which case, perhaps "god" has finished his experiment with us, and we are relegated to some dusty back shelf, allowed to simply mold.

[snakelegs]

what if we're all wrong?
maybe when we die we wake up to find ourselves in the celestial, eternal
wal-mart? or maybe an endless shopping mall from which there is no exit....ever?
now that's scary. :scared:

[north_malaysian]

Paradise is something beyond our imagination...

so there would be zillions of things/interests that we never seen or experienced that would make us not boring eternally.

I believe that God is very good in keeping the Paradise citizens happy eternally... because he's our Creator... He knows what makes us boring and what is not...:)

[ranma1/2]

i love life and am thankful to god for my life.
that said, i never found the concept of eternal life (be it in heaven or hell) in the least bit appealing.

yeah, hell sounds much more funner.

Heaven you cant drink, smoke, have sex with strangers, cuss, play pranks, listen to music, dance perhaps and manyother things.

Hell now hell sounds cool.

Great heating, BBQ every night, rock n roll and more.
he he he...

[ranma1/2]

Is there any TV?

yes but only religious progaming as well as touched by an angel and 7th heaven, and stairway to heaven.

[NYCmuslim]

I see no point in any of this. Heaven and Hell is something our 5 senses cannot comprehend. We wont know for sure until we get there. Although the way Allah puts it in the Quran, heaven is a place that I wanna go to, inshallah.

Maybe we can all get together in the hereafter and continue this discussion? See you in the akhira :D

[The Ruler]

Great heating,

It's worser than being in hawaii in mid summer with the clothing that you'd naturally wear in Alaska during mid winter.

BBQ every night,

Yeah. Ever tried burnt BBQ? Tastes like burnt BBQ. Not a good taste, may I add.

rock n roll and more.

Ever tried playing music on a cassette/radio while it's on your cooker?

1)Can we bear it?
We are in paradise for eternity...thats going to be utterly unbearable.Imagine living in a place where there is no hardship, no challenge, no anger, no future, no hope, no sleep, no change..for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...without cease.

Isn't that the type of world we dream to create? Utopia? If you think we wouldn't be pleased with that, then why do we put our efforts in creating a peaceful world?

2) Whats the point?
God created us to pass his test so that we can live forever in bliss if we do his will. well here we are , his will has been done and he's pleased with us. Now what do we do. Whats our purpose, whats the point of anything. Are we in paradise to eternally praise him still, if so whats the point in that? It's like creating your own eternal-self cheering show. The whole of creation was made for us,just so that we could praise god and pass the test. Do we have any other use?
3) Might as well throw away reality now?
God has whipped up in 6 days a pretty infinate universe with Trillions of stars with Gigaparsecs of space. Lets say that he set up a few other planets as well with humans on it to pass his tests. The day has come and gone. Everything that he's created, is it all going to fizzle out now? It's of no use anymore.

God has given us a tad bit of the knowledge that He has. Therefore, we don't know what's to happen after that. The answer's as simple as that. ANd besides, you're looking at it the way I sometimes see it as. It seems like a dream, where you're floating with no goal and no destination. It's peaceful and all, but pointless. I'm quite sure that heaven is more than just floating on clouds and angels with harps [< I don't believe in that by the way].

:w:

[Muezzin]

Hell now hell sounds cool.

Great heating, BBQ every night, rock n roll and more.
he he he...

I suppose the endless torture of the physical, sexual and Christina Aguilera varieties you have to endure wasn't included in your travel brochure.

Package deals aren't the source of all evil... but they ain't far off.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Does anyone else think this debate is fundamentally too metaphysical to be taken seriously for any substantial length of time? I mean no disrespect to any participants, it's just the topic is becoming understandably farcical.

Taking heaven and hell too seriously has been causing humanity major problems for centuries now. Will we never learn?

Peace

[Talib_Rayhan]

THE HORROR OF IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ..... lol are you serious?!

you do know boredome- growing weary - getting tired - lack of excitement interest - DULLNESS are all worldly feelings and emotions and in heaven they will have no part. Pure peace and contentment, purest desires always fulfilled, each experience better then the last... this is heaven.

May Allaah grant all of us (muslims) jannah !

Ameen

[Qingu]

If you want there to be.

But dude come on, who would watch TV in PARADISE??:giggling:

TV sounds a lot more exciting than actual descriptions of paradise in the Quran. "Gardens watered by flowing streams?" I guess if I was a desert nomad this would sound very nice, but this imagery isn't exactly impressive when we have indoor plumbing, refrigerators and Britta filters.

[Malaikah]

TV sounds a lot more exciting than actual descriptions of paradise in the Quran. "Gardens watered by flowing streams?" I guess if I was a desert nomad this would sound very nice, but this imagery isn't exactly impressive when we have indoor plumbing, refrigerators and Britta filters.

So says the person who has no appreciation for nature.^o)

The trees are made of gold and silver, the soil is made of musk, the rivers are of either water, milk, honey or wine, the pebbles of paradise are jewels.

How can indoor plumbing ever compare? God gave you an imagination... please use it.

Here is on of the descriptions of paradise from the Quran (please note, the Arabic is soo much better, the translation does no justice to it):

15. (They will be) on thrones woven with gold and precious stones,
16. Reclining thereon, face to face.
17. They will be served by immortal boys,
18. With cups, and jugs, and a glass from the flowing wine,
19. Wherefrom they will get neither any aching of the head, nor any intoxication.
20. And fruit; that they may choose.
21. And the flesh of fowls that they desire.
22. And (there will be) Houris (fair females) with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious),
23. Like unto preserved pearls.
24. A reward for what they used to do.
25. No Laghw (dirty, false, evil vain talk) will they hear therein, nor any sinful speech (like backbiting, etc.).
26. But only the saying of: Sal&#226;m!, Sal&#226;m! (greetings with peace)[] !
27. And those on the Right Hand, * Who will be those on the Right Hand?
28. (They will be) among thornless lote-trees,
29. Among Talh (banana-trees) with fruits piled one above another,
30. In shade long-extended,
31. By water flowing constantly,
32. And fruit in plenty,
33. Whose season is not limited, and their supply will not be cut off,
34. And on couches or thrones, raised high.
35. Verily, We have created them (maidens) of special creation.
36. And made them virgins.
37. Loving (their husbands only), equal in age.

Chapter 56

We are in paradise for eternity...thats going to be utterly unbearable.Imagine living in a place where there is no hardship, no challenge, no anger, no future, no hope, no sleep, no change..for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...without cease.

Who said there is no future? That doesn't even make sense! Are you telling me you enjoy anger?

And also, what do you mean by no change? Of course there is change! The only difference is that stuff always gets better, not worse.

[truemuslim]

Ok. The last day has come and gone, everyone is either away in paradise or hell.

Now what?
My question's are.
1)Can we bear it?
We are in paradise for eternity...thats going to be utterly unbearable.Imagine living in a place where there is no hardship, no challenge, no anger, no future, no hope, no sleep, no change..for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever...without cease.
2) Whats the point?
God created us to pass his test so that we can live forever in bliss if we do his will. well here we are , his will has been done and he's pleased with us. Now what do we do. Whats our purpose, whats the point of anything. Are we in paradise to eternally praise him still, if so whats the point in that? It's like creating your own eternal-self cheering show. The whole of creation was made for us,just so that we could praise god and pass the test. Do we have any other use?
3) Might as well throw away reality now?
God has whipped up in 6 days a pretty infinate universe with Trillions of stars with Gigaparsecs of space. Lets say that he set up a few other planets as well with humans on it to pass his tests. The day has come and gone. Everything that he's created, is it all going to fizzle out now? It's of no use anymore.

OH COME ON!! will people these days PULEAAAASSSE GET A LIFE... first think, would you like to live in a eternal life and get WHATEVER you want, live HOWEVER you want, no more devil, no more war (u prolly gettin sad now aint u?) no more shootin, murders, kidnaps, robers, sickness, death, sadness, life is perfect, easy, beautiful, and if you don't get this....:grumbling

OR
Hell!!!!!:mad::thumbs_do:thumbs_do:thumbs_do, where you will burn for eternity, telling the angels to tell allah to let you out, begging for another chance! All you have to drink is boiling water which burns you when you drink it, and flames to eat, no sleep, being tortured until u nutin, then come back and do the same again...think...

please bring back that thing that used to be in between your ears and behind ur eyes...:cry:

:D:w:

[DAWUD_adnan]

OMG that was soo funny True muslim, you WILL get repped for that one ^__^ ahahahhah wahhahahaha h

Depends entirely on the way you live.

silly example but i'll use it, people who fall in love talk about eternity etc and they "mean it !" but the thing is, its due to that strong spark they get inside during those moments they are near to one another. So imagine this feeling but it never fades and only gets stronger and purer.

If you can understand that even slightly, then know heaven has unimaginable times stronger feelings and emotions, which always grow stronger.

Whats your thought now?!

That was GOOD, Its the exact answer I use when someone asks me the boredom in paradise question, these people are soo deluded Allah has not even allowed them to like Heaven, its like Allah wants to tell them in akhira :

"You did even like it, you said it was boring... Why do you want it now?"

subhanAllah

[Qingu]

So says the person who has no appreciation for nature.^o)

I love nature. One of my favorite TV shows is Planet Earth. I also like human history and the development of human art. I think all of these things are much more interesting than flowing streams.

The trees are made of gold and silver, the soil is made of musk, the rivers are of either water, milk, honey or wine, the pebbles of paradise are jewels.

What use are gold and silver in heaven? Milk, honey, and wine? This is really the most impressive imagery you can think of?

Again, it sounds like it might appeal to desert nomads unfamiliar with modern comforts or interests, but I doubt for a second that you'd take a river of milk and honey over a TV and a freezer full of ice cream.

Here is on of the descriptions of paradise from the Quran (please note, the Arabic is soo much better, the translation does no justice to it):

[INDENT] 15. (They will be) on thrones woven with gold and precious stones,
16. Reclining thereon, face to face.
17. They will be served by immortal boys,
18. With cups, and jugs, and a glass from the flowing wine,
19. Wherefrom they will get neither any aching of the head, nor any intoxication.
20. And fruit; that they may choose.
21. And the flesh of fowls that they desire.
22. And (there will be) Houris (fair females) with wide, lovely eyes (as wives for the pious),
23. Like unto preserved pearls.

Good food, booze, slaves, and lots of attractive girls?

That's heaven?

Also interesting that there are no attractive, fair-eyed husbands for the female heaven-dwellers.

[Malaikah]

yeah, hell sounds much more funner.

Heaven you cant drink, smoke, have sex with strangers, cuss, play pranks, listen to music, dance perhaps and manyother things.

Hell now hell sounds cool.

Great heating, BBQ every night, rock n roll and more.
he he he...

How ignorant... Firstly, yes, there is wine in Paradise, you don't need to have sex with strangers because you have wives, you don't need to swear because its stupid and disgusting, as is smoking (if you consider swearing and smoking to be fun than that a sad life you must lead), aand yes you can listen to music and you can dance in Paradise, amongst many other things.

As for hell, the only food you will have is boiling water, your own pus and a plant called zaqqum (which is pretty foul, I'll tell you that).

[Qingu]

As for hell, the only food you will have is boiling water, your own pus and a plant called zaqqum (which is pretty foul, I'll tell you that).

Will we have a body?

Because, I gotta tell you, I can't really feel boiling water and pus or taste zaqqum without it.

Also curious as to whether you Muslims will be lucky enough to have a body in heaven, so you can enjoy your cold wine and attractive virgin wives.

[Malaikah]

What use are gold and silver in heaven? Milk, honey, and wine? This is really the most impressive imagery you can think of?

They stuff in Paradise only share their names with the stuff of earth, but they are far more superior.

Again, it sounds like it might appeal to desert nomads unfamiliar with modern comforts or interests, but I doubt for a second that you'd take a river of milk and honey over a TV and a freezer full of ice cream.

Yes, I would.

Good food, booze, slaves, and lots of attractive girls?
That's heaven?

No, its great food, non-intoxicating wine, servants, not slaves, and the women (specifically wives) are not simply attractive, but they are beautiful, more so than any human can imagine.

Also interesting that there are no attractive, fair-eyed husbands for the female heaven-dwellers.

There is. I don't know if they are 'fair-eyed' though.

Will we have a body?

Because, I gotta tell you, I can't really feel boiling water and pus or taste zaqqum without it.

Also curious as to whether you Muslims will be lucky enough to have a body in heaven, so you can enjoy your cold wine and attractive virgin wives.

Of course we have a body!

I'm sorry, but are you being silly on purpose?

[DAWUD_adnan]

Will we have a body?

Because, I gotta tell you, I can't really feel boiling water and pus or taste zaqqum without it.

Also curious as to whether you Muslims will be lucky enough to have a body in heaven, so you can enjoy your cold wine and attractive virgin wives.

Yes, Muslims will have physical bodies, becuase being human, is being physical and Spiritual at the same time, you see thats why humans are higher then any other creature created.

P.S STOP SAYING MUSLIM MEN ENJOYING VIRGINS,
its disrespectful the way you said it, Allah enjoins to souls and makes them ONE, a man and a woman, just like Allah created for Adam, Eve He created for every human, its soulmate, the word means not just virgins, but NO ONE has seen or heard your love EVER BEFORE... thats what it means.... either man or woman .....

If you truly ever loved someone you should know that you will have the tendencies to hide her/him away from anyone else,

[truemuslim]

Who said there is no future? That doesn't even make sense! Are you telling me you enjoy anger?

And also, what do you mean by no change? Of course there is change! The only difference is that stuff always gets better, not worse.

wow nice malaikah, yes well you know the shaitan is the cause of anger, and shaitan doesnt leave ...them... plus what is a good life witout fighting, getting drunk and running some twin angels over wita car? all that stuff...:D

[truemuslim]

Yes, Muslims will have physical bodies, becuase being human, is being physical and Spiritual at the same time, you see thats why humans are higher then any other creature created.

true ^^^ and qingu, you are considered dead anyway...no off.:D

[Qingu]

They stuff in Paradise only share their names with the stuff of earth, but they are far more superior.

Okay ... I'm having trouble following you. In what ways would heavenly gold be "superior" to earthly gold? More shiny? More malleable?

No, its great food, non-intoxicating wine, servants, not slaves, and the women (specifically wives) are not simply attractive, but they are beautiful, more so than any human can imagine.

Wow, this sounds exactly like a Roman orgy.

There is. I don't know if they are 'fair-eyed' though.

Really? Where are these attractive heavenly husbands for Muslim women mentioned in the Quran or the hadith?

If they're not mentioned anywhere, how do you know they exist? Seems consistent with Muslim theology that men get this perk of multiple sex partners in heaven and women do not.

Of course we have a body!

Then why is almost every single dead Muslim's body currently rotting underground?

Have they not gone to heaven yet?

Or do you get a duplicate body in heaven? What age is the body?

Since your mind is wholly tied to the physicality of your brain, is the heavenly Muslim brain different than the brains of Muslims who died?

I'm sorry, but are you being silly on purpose?

I'm not being silly at all. My questions are intended to be serious.

[truemuslim]

you know qingu you are so right, muslims just don't understand the fun of killing, the fun of robbing, family issues (guessin u got som), going crazy in a club drinkin then leavin drunk, feelin afrain after watchin a sick scary HARAM movie like f-final destination 1, 2, and 3..( i only saw 5 min... i aint bad) not feelin afraid of someone breakin in through weak normal area of da u.s witout cages and killin you family? i mean, who still even wants to live in peace? its sorta boring, you know like watchin grass grow, or paint dry, u kow, not lookin for anythin scary, bad, sick, painful... think a lil..


lol i really got u thinkin i on uz side qingu ditnt i? lol

[Qingu]

P.S STOP SAYING MUSLIM MEN ENJOYING VIRGINS,

Why?

Do you deny that Muslim men will get to enjoy multiple, beautiful, virgin wives in heaven? That is exactly what the Quran says; Truemuslim quoted the verse.

its disrespectful the way you said it, Allah enjoins to souls and makes them ONE, a man and a woman, just like Allah created for Adam, Eve He created for every human, its soulmate,

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, nor do I see how it's disrespectful. Besides, Allah obviously doesn't think that souls are wholly joined between man and wife, because you can have multiple wives according to the Quran. Muhammad had twelve wives, did he not? And the passage describes multiple attractive virgin wives in heaven, not one.

(Though I understand that this is not the case for women and multiple husbands.)

If you truly ever loved someone you should know that you will have the tendencies to hide her/him away from anyone else,

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here...?

[Qingu]

you know qingu you are so right, muslims just don't understand the fun of killing, the fun of robbing, family issues (guessin u got som), going crazy in a club drinkin then leavin drunk, feelin afrain after watchin a sick scary HARAM movie like f-final destination 1, 2, and 3..( i only saw 5 min... i aint bad) not feelin afraid of someone breakin in through weak normal area of da u.s witout cages and killin you family? i mean, who still even wants to live in peace? its sorta boring, you know like watchin grass grow, or paint dry, u kow, not lookin for anythin scary, bad, sick, painful... think a lil..


lol i really got u thinkin i on uz side qingu ditnt i? lol

I'm not sure how anything you've just said relates to anything I've said in this thread, or to the discussion of heaven. What is your point, exactly?

[truemuslim]

Then why is almost every single dead Muslim's body currently rotting underground?

Have they not gone to heaven yet?

Or do you get a duplicate body in heaven? What age is the body?

Since your mind is wholly tied to the physicality of your brain, is the heavenly Muslim brain different than the brains of Muslims who died?


I'm not being silly at all. My questions are intended to be serious.

OMG ARE U FREAKIN KIDDIN ME?????? HAHA I cannot believe what me readin.... ok so you ACTUALLY think that when a person ACTUALLY dies, they stay in the grave, and ACTUALLY stay EXACTLY the same, i mean seriously, they dead, in heavan they still dead...(hope u know sarcasism, sorry if i cant spell that word, i juss never had to ACTUALLY use it to some one in ma lyf yet) and they juss get they dirt bones up and go to heavan, all dirty, and sickening lookin... oh please gimme a freakin break... i could sit here and typin all night long...but u aint worth ma time:enough!:


sorry ppl like u sorta make me mad...:raging:

no off....again...hehe:-[

[truemuslim]

I'm not sure how anything you've just said relates to anything I've said in this thread, or to the discussion of heaven. What is your point, exactly?

yah dude u defidently dead:cry: so whered they bury ur grave i might need to go to it and read suraht al mulk....

[Qingu]

OMG ARE U FREAKIN KIDDIN ME?????? HAHA I cannot believe what me readin.... ok so you ACTUALLY think that when a person ACTUALLY dies, they stay in the grave, and ACTUALLY stay EXACTLY the same,

Not exactly the same. They rot.

Which is why I'm asking about the bodies in heaven. They obviously are not the same bodies that believers have on earth. Do you get a duplicate body, like a clone?

Or will all the believers' corpses regenerate one day in the future and ascend up to the sky?

sorry ppl like u sorta make me mad...:raging:

Apparently. I'm wondering if I should interpret your "dude u definitely dead" comment as a threat!

[truemuslim]

nah please dude... dont take it the wrong way...

it aint a threat...it a fact...

[truemuslim]

btw when you said they go to heavan when they die.... i dont blame u...i dont think ur religion even got a judgement day...im so sorry man

[Malaikah]

Okay ... I'm having trouble following you. In what ways would heavenly gold be "superior" to earthly gold? More shiny? More malleable?

Everything is superior. For example, we can talk about mangos in paradise. In earth you can get crappy mangoes that are all bruised and have black dots on them and stuff, or you can get really yummy perfect looking mangoes... in paradise the mangoes are ever better in every respect, taste, size, everything.

Wow, this sounds exactly like a Roman orgy.

Why? Never heard of a person having a beautiful wife? Odd.

Really? Where are these attractive heavenly husbands for Muslim women mentioned in the Quran or the hadith?

It is mentioned in the hadith. The men who enter paradise marry the women who enter paradise. And both the earthly men and women are superior and more beautiful than the women who only ever lived in paradise. (I do knot know if there are men who only ever lived in paradise).

Seems consistent with Muslim theology that men get this perk of multiple sex partners in heaven and women do not.

No it doesn't, for it to be consistent than women must have a husband (which they do). And if you are going to make a big deal about teh fact that men get more than one wife but women only get one husband, then don't- God has made it that way, and God always knows best. Whether it is because He knows it is inappropriate for women to have multiple husbands, or because He knows men like it and women do not, or whatever reason, it doesn't matter because the fact is that everyone is happy in paradise, so in the end it makes no difference.

Then why is almost every single dead Muslim's body currently rotting underground?

It's called resurrection. We will be raised from the dead, our bodied just like how they used to be. That included all people. Now if you want to know whether every single atom will be the same, I can't help you with that one.

Have they not gone to heaven yet?

No, people only enter Paradise after the Day of Judgement. The exception is he martyrs, they enter paradise as soon as they die, but their souls only. They get their bodied back on the Day of Judgement.

Or do you get a duplicate body in heaven? What age is the body?

No duplicate, the original. And the age is 33.

Since your mind is wholly tied to the physicality of your brain, is the heavenly Muslim brain different than the brains of Muslims who died?

I don't understand this question.

[Qingu]

Everything is superior. For example, we can talk about mangos in paradise. In earth you can get crappy mangoes that are all bruised and have black dots on them and stuff, or you can get really yummy perfect looking mangoes... in paradise the mangoes are ever better in every respect, taste, size, everything.

I'm curious as to how the mangoes taste better in heaven, since taste is a physical reaction between chemicals.

And I'm still curious as to how gold is "superior" in heaven.

Why? Never heard of a person having a beautiful wife? Odd.

Roman emperors and noblemen would often throw parties where they had sex with a lot of beautiful women, ate the most delicious food imaginable, and bathed in pleasing baths attended by their slaves.

Your description of heaven sounds exactly like this, except without the diarrhea afterwards.

It is mentioned in the hadith. The men who enter paradise marry the women who enter paradise. And both the earthly men and women are superior and more beautiful than the women who only ever lived in paradise. (I do knot know if there are men who only ever lived in paradise).

So let me get this straight.

Muslim men get a cadre of beautiful virgin women in paradise, in addition to their earthly wives.

Women, on the other hand, only get what they come in with.

Do women get slave-boys too, like the men? Can they have sex with them?

What if you're an unmarried woman and you die and go to heaven?

It's called resurrection. We will be raised from the dead, our bodied just like how they used to be. That included all people. Now if you want to know whether every single atom will be the same, I can't help you with that one.

So what happens in the meantime, before your bodies are raised?

No, people only enter Paradise after the Day of Judgement. The exception is he martyrs, they enter paradise as soon as they die, but their souls only. They get their bodied back on the Day of Judgement.

Okay, but without their bodies, how are the martyrs' souls going to enjoy all the delicious fruit and virgin women in heaven? It seems like all the pleasures in your heaven are physical, so why would you want to go there without a body?

No duplicate, the original. And the age is 33.

What happens if you die before you're 33?

I don't understand this question.

You can lobotomize someone and completely change their personality. People with brain damage, Alzeihmers, etc. have different minds than when before they had their disease. And as you learn things growing up, your brain physically changes too.

Since the mind, or the soul, seem wholly tied to the physicality of the brain, I'm curious as to what is the default "brain state" in heaven.

I'm also very curious as to WHERE your heaven is. It's obviously a physical place, and people go there with bodies. Is it like a floating continent in the sky? Is it on another planet? Does Earth magically turn into Heaven on the Last Day? I'm mostly familiar with Christian conceptions of heaven as a "spiritual" place (whatever that means), so this is all very new to me.

[Malaikah]

I'm curious as to how the mangoes taste better in heaven, since taste is a physical reaction between chemicals.

And I'm still curious as to how gold is "superior" in heaven.

They just DO. I'm sorry I don't know details so I really can't help you with that.

Roman emperors and noblemen would often throw parties where they had sex with a lot of beautiful women, ate the most delicious food imaginable, and bathed in pleasing baths attended by their slaves.

Your description of heaven sounds exactly like this, except without the diarrhea afterwards.

Right, well they sleep with their wives one at a time, not all at the same time, theres nothing wrong with good, and the servants are mentioned in the context of bringing them food, not bathing them.

So let me get this straight.

Muslim men get a cadre of beautiful virgin women in paradise, in addition to their earthly wives.

Women, on the other hand, only get what they come in with.

Do women get slave-boys too, like the men? Can they have sex with them?

SERVANT boys, and yes men and women get them and NO they don't sleep with them (boys, not men, BOYS!)

What if you're an unmarried woman and you die and go to heaven?

You are given a husband.

So what happens in the meantime, before your bodies are raised?

You hang out in your grave where your soul is either punished or rewarded.

Okay, but without their bodies, how are the martyrs' souls going to enjoy all the delicious fruit and virgin women in heaven? It seems like all the pleasures in your heaven are physical, so why would you want to go there without a body?

They hang out in the bodies of green birds, if I remember correctly.

What happens if you die before you're 33?

You are raised at 33 regardless, though I think there might be a exception for children who die before puberty but I'm not sure.

You can lobotomize someone and completely change their personality. People with brain damage, Alzeihmers, etc. have different minds than when before they had their disease. And as you learn things growing up, your brain physically changes too.

Since the mind, or the soul, seem wholly tied to the physicality of the brain, I'm curious as to what is the default "brain state" in heaven.

No idea, all I know is that we are raised how we are born- "naked, barefoot and uncircumcised". In other words, if you lost an arm in life you are raised with that arm etc. And you are raised with your normal memory and functioning and all that, don't ask me how that works, Allah did not give us the details.

I'm also very curious as to WHERE your heaven is. It's obviously a physical place, and people go there with bodies. Is it like a floating continent in the sky? Is it on another planet? Does Earth magically turn into Heaven on the Last Day? I'm mostly familiar with Christian conceptions of heaven as a "spiritual" place (whatever that means), so this is all very new to me.

It is a physical place, outside the universe.

[truemuslim]

Qingu heavan is undiscribable, we can't describe exctly how it looks, its too good, no one can even imagine how it is... of course, some stubborn people think they can ....ahem...ahem...gee.i wonder who that is hehe... anyway malaikah isnt heavan boring... i want to go to hell (staghfirallah al atheem) so badly... its much more action than heavan..ya know? i mean the great challenge in staying and burning and the challenge of trying to find food that isnt painful and on fire...the challenge of holding the pain in... so much anger of remembering why you got this... because you did wrong in the other short life...

cuz seriously who on earth would want to go to that boring place with no anger, that means no shaitan, no fun of evil... what is that?!?! sooo boring... OMG THE HORROR OF HEAVAN...AAAAAAAHHHHHHHH... so os so horrible...

here on earth... what most people call heavan is a club wit a bar inside...yea nice aint it?


i wonder if they sell brains in stores or somthin... i might actually be kind enough to buy one for u..hehe..not u malaikah btw

[DAWUD_adnan]

Does anyone else think this debate is fundamentally too metaphysical to be taken seriously for any substantial length of time? I mean no disrespect to any participants, it's just the topic is becoming understandably farcical.

Next up: Angels. How do they get their wings so fluffy?

Lol I wouldn't say they are fluffy, because if you think about it... they are made of light.. right? ( lol ..that rhymed ) hahah that two!

anyway...

I think their wings are like straight rays of light not featherish, but Allah Knows Best.

[syilla]

lol...this thread is so funny.

As if the hardship is fun enough...

[جوري]

I haven't had a chance to read through all the replies, so will address the first poster only, in hopes I can kill the last 8 mins before I make isha prayer and dindin is ready..

A great deal of your happiness or myriad of other emotions in this world depends on its contrast to things you find to be their opposite.. it is simply the way you were created..

You know why something is evil by having experienced something that is good... You know what black having seen white, you only know of day time because you have experienced night...

When you dream at night, do you feel boredom in a dream? You are in a completely different state.. I have never heard anyone state, I was so boared in my dream last night, sleep is an opposite state to wakefullness and in its own right completely strange and different not bound by laws of our physical world.

Anyone who will listen to a sura such as say Suret Al'waqi3a

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will develop a great understanding from Allah's words..

عَلَى أَن نُّبَدِّلَ أَمْثَالَكُمْ وَنُنشِئَكُمْ فِي مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ {61}

[Pickthal 56:61] That We may transfigure you and make you what ye know not.

وَلَقَدْ عَلِمْتُمُ النَّشْأَةَ الْأُولَى فَلَوْلَا تَذكَّرُونَ {62}

[Pickthal 56:62] And verily ye know the first creation. Why, then, do ye not reflect?

I suggest you listen to all of it, it is actually translated...
Those of us who believe, recognize, we will be of a different creation...
that which we know of heaven, is only limited to our understanding to things we can relate to it this life, just like punishment we can only relate to punishment received here on earth.. it doesn't seem terribly exciting or terribly frightful because you've not carried the thought to abstraction and I suspect that on a human level it would be very difficult to carry the thought through without experiencing what you have in fact stated. "tis beyond your scope, because what you have written is all you know, and all you will know so long as you are bound by laws of this world!
hope that is of help?


cheers!

[Qingu]

I suggest you listen to all of it, it is actually translated...
Those of us who believe, recognize, we will be of a different creation...
that which we know of heaven, is only limited to our understanding to things we can relate to it this life, just like punishment we can only relate to punishment received here on earth.. it doesn't seem terribly exciting or terribly frightful because you've not carried the thought to abstraction and I suspect that on a human level it would be very difficult to carry the thought through without experiencing what you have in fact stated. "tis beyond your scope, because what you have written is all you know, and all you will know so long as you are bound by laws of this world!
hope that is of help?


cheers!

Except that it's not really abstracted because you apparently believe you will have a physical body in heaven, nearly identical to your current physical body. In heaven, Muslims will experience physical comforts, physical pleasures, physical sex, and eat physical food. There's no abstraction at all, we're talking about electrochemical nerve messages indicating pleasure and (in hell) pain in a physical body.

The other option, which Christians believe, is that only your spirit goes to heaven (whatever that means) and thus whatever pleasure you get there is "abstracted" (again, whatever that means). While I think this makes more sense than the Islamic proposition of heaven, it's rather incomprehensible.

[Talha777]

The other option, which Christians believe, is that only your spirit goes to heaven

Its strange Christians believe only the "spirit" goes to Heaven, since they also believe like us in the resurrection of the BODY. Even the New Testament condemns the Sadduccee sect because they didnt believe in a bodily resurrection.

[جوري]

Except that it's not really abstracted because you apparently believe you will have a physical body in heaven,

So?-- what does having a physical body have to do with abstraction?

nearly identical to your current physical body. In heaven, Muslims will experience physical comforts, physical pleasures, physical sex, and eat physical food. There's no abstraction at all, we're talking about electrochemical nerve messages indicating pleasure and (in hell) pain in a physical body.

Not nearly identical, where did you get that from? how we are resurrected will be as we last left this earth, how we enter heaven or hell will be of a different creation any superficial research in Muslim text would have clarfied that to you.. nor can you claim with like bravado that it will be an 'electrochemical' event to translate to us pleasure or pain --did you bother listen to the sura at all before writing this?

we won't be bound by earth's rules or physical laws, no sun, no moon no death no sleep. This is a very expansive topic and what we know if it, is still limited to what we were allowed to know and in accordance with how far we can imagine. I can say there is such a thing in hell called Zaquoum, how would you know what that is? or a place in heaven called tasneem? again, How can you begin to imagine that? It might be assimilated to you, so your fancy head can awaken some horrifying or gratfying image based only on things you are familar with on this earth and have made an impact on you. If you can conceive that there are things on this very earth that you don't know shape, name or function of, it isn't so difficult to believe that there will be life after in a different realm, following a different set of rules and physical laws!

Can you hear sounds that are ultra or infra to the human audible frequency? can you understand speech that is between 17 to 30 Hz in range? it is possible you know they exist, but can't comprehend them. And still this is something within the realm of our knowledge to know whales communicate at that level, which is unintelligible to humans ... there is much we don't know and much we can't fathom, we'd be a completely different life form if we lived on the bottom of the ocean than in a fresh water pond.. people differ from region to region, climate, temperature even individual weight differs from planet to planet and as perceived by the same individual-- why then is it so incomprehensible that we'd be a different creation, that would feel satisfaction, pleasure, immortality with no pain, suffering or lowely desires?

The other option, which Christians believe, is that only your spirit goes to heaven (whatever that means) and thus whatever pleasure you get there is "abstracted" (again, whatever that means). While I think this makes more sense than the Islamic proposition of heaven, it's rather incomprehensible.

How exactly does being an apparition make more sense, perhaps you can elaborate on that? or actually don't bother, I don't care to waste my time on atheist antics.. my response was to the original poster and to briskly cover Islamic perspective, I don't expect that it should have an effect or impact on you... Perhaps the mods can erect a section for the lot of you to convey your insults, scorn and dismay with religion until you are all completely purged


cheers!

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
My turn.
Heaven = awesome place

This earth / life = crap hole

Hell = hole.

Explanation sil vous plate

Heaven/Paradise = Well, I can't really describe what it is since I've never been there...yet. However, I've been told that it is going to be awesome.
Hell? I haven't been there either, but apparantly the Lord of the Sith lives there and it's also supposedly friggin hot - ph5 will do jack fo your skin. Or so I have been told.

Now, placed with those two outcomes, which one do you think is worth travelling to? I don't need an explanation as to how my body will accept Heaven or hell or what chemicals in my brain will make me believe I am in Heaven or Hell. I just need to know how to get there.

See, it's dead freakin simple. I've noticed many non-religious folk like to complicate very simple things.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

See, it's dead freakin simple. I've noticed many non-religious folk like to complicate very simple things.

It's very simple if you believe in it. I think what the non-religious questions in this thread have attempted to do is to find rational explanations for the beliefs about the afterlife shared by many here. That necessarily means going beneath the surface a little.

Peace

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,


It's very simple if you believe in it. I think what the non-religious questions in this thread have attempted to do is to find rational explanations for the beliefs about the afterlife shared by many here. That necessarily means going beneath the surface a little.

Peace

Evenin' to ya Mr Czgibson.
The thing is, you don't need to have a rational explanation for the afterlife. Belief utilises emotion. Rationality utilises logic. Why do non-religious folk ask these questions relating to the afterlife? Because they don't believe in the actual concept but they want to understand it (it is part of being human). However, the mistake made is to use logic to understand what is clearly an emotion.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Evenin' to ya Mr Czgibson.
The thing is, you don't need to have a rational explanation for the afterlife. Belief utilises emotion. Rationality utilises logic. Why do non-religious folk ask these questions relating to the afterlife? Because they don't believe in the actual concept but they want to understand it (it is part of being human). However, the mistake made is to use logic to understand what is clearly an emotion.

Absolutely right, but the problem with that is you could justify almost any belief with that argument. For instance, suppose I told you that I believe the following:

All men are mortal
Robbie Williams is a man
Therefore Robbie Williams is immortal.

"But that's totally illogical!" you might say, and you'd be right, but since it's my belief, I'm sticking to it. The fact that it's my belief doesn't make it true, of course, but do you not see how this kind of thinking can be dangerous?

If someone believes that they will go to heaven straight after killing a group of people they believe to be oppressors, they are extremely dangerous, no? There is no possible rational argument that could convince them otherwise. Unfortunately, the number of such nutcases is large, and they are currently making our planet a much more dangerous place than it needs to be.

Peace

[جوري]

if something is theoretically true in large part, then I can accept that it is true for the whole, I need not have physical palpable evidence of it to be true..
take for instance a medication like acetaminophen /paracetamol/Tylenol which can cause acute hepatic necrosis in humans by allowing for the formation and accumulation of NAPQI in large quantities obviously depends on weight of individual and liver function other factors, age, renal plasma clearance etc etc. I don't believe that there is any conclusive studies ran on the usage of Tylenol in pts with Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency.. so we blindly accept that we must apply extreme caution using such a med on a person likely to undergo liver cirrhosis because of such an enzyme deficiency .. we need not bring a large group of Alpha-1 antitrypsin deficient individuals and subject them to a clinical trial to prove a moot point.

By same token, the physical application of Islam that deal with this world have been tried and true, the message and the messenger are impossible to doubt or dispute, if you can, or have you'd have been successful in doing so in the many issues raised in the refutation section. But I am yet to see one of you do anything other than dance around an argument with disjointed and nonsensical logic, much like your analogy up above!

There is the portion that we reflect upon and asked to, there is the portion that we are to believe as it is part of the package. If the Promise of Allah even in the remote events manifesting in 'end of the world signs' alone have come to pass before our very eyes, then those promised to happen shall also come to pass. We don't need a chariot from another dimension to bow down prostrate. Every wonder in this universe is already strong evidence.

Being an Atheist means you don't believe in God it is true, but it also means youbear burden of proof to account for every 'natural phenomenon' happening in the world on its own volition and frankly, I am yet to read a convincing piece that accounts for how everything came to be or why.
So in the end you hold a belief there is no God.. that is fine and dandy.
We hold a belief that there is with all that, that would entail. And we can just amicably part ways!

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,


Absolutely right, but the problem with that is you could justify almost any belief with that argument. For instance, suppose I told you that I believe the following:

All men are mortal
Robbie Williams is a man
Therefore Robbie Williams is immortal.

"But that's totally illogical!" you might say, and you'd be right, but since it's my belief, I'm sticking to it. The fact that it's my belief doesn't make it true, of course, but do you not see how this kind of thinking can be dangerous?

I agree to what is written and I understand the danger of this type of thinking.

If someone believes that they will go to heaven straight after killing a group of people they believe to be oppressors, they are extremely dangerous, no? There is no possible rational argument that could convince them otherwise. Unfortunately, the number of such nutcases is large, and they are currently making our planet a much more dangerous place than it needs to be.

Peace

I understand your argument and it is a very good point. From your example, we can logically work out that this person's belief is incorrect. However, that person is convinced that his/her belief is the undeniable truth - no amount of logic will change it. This doesn't mean that the action should be condoned, no. It simply means that his/her belief is not based on logic - even though the action is illogical.

There is a need to understand things - I do agree to this completely. However, one has to remember that humans are limited to what they undestand especially in regards to the use of logic. Since, however, we are referring to a place that none of us have been to (i.e. Heaven), we cannot explain it through logic, other than what is written in the holy text books, though some would argue that is not logic. Yet, people insist on bringing logic to the table when clearly emotion is required.

[snakelegs]

:sl:
My turn.
Heaven = awesome place
This earth / life = crap hole
Hell = hole.

this is a little off topic because i'm not talking about the afterlife.
i know this type of thinking is not uncommon among religious people. i find it incomprehensible and troubling.
how can you possibly believe this earth/life = crap hole?
god made this earth and gave you and me life, how can you disdain it? he made this planet and filled it full of beauty and things that are a source of constant wonder and awe.
you may think it is but a passing shadow compared to eternity but that does not mean that it is not wonderful and beautiful and full of miracles and much to be thankful for.

[caroline]

Lol I wouldn't say they are fluffy, because if you think about it... they are made of light.. right? ( lol ..that rhymed ) hahah that two!

anyway...

I think their wings are like straight rays of light not featherish, but Allah Knows Best.

Awww... I wanted fluffy wings~~~imsad

[جوري]

I'm curious as to how the mangoes taste better in heaven, since taste is a physical reaction between chemicals.

That is a curiosity you will unlikely be able to satisfy, here or in the here after..

And I'm still curious as to how gold is "superior" in heaven.

it goes for that too.. however, you can have different gradation in Gold right here on earth, I fail to understand why such an element would pique your curiosity in a different realm?

Roman emperors and noblemen would often throw parties where they had sex with a lot of beautiful women, ate the most delicious food imaginable, and bathed in pleasing baths attended by their slaves.

So?

Your description of heaven sounds exactly like this, except without the diarrhea afterwards.

here is a desciption you've never heard
kdgsjkljg jfkdsjgtiaiurue fdkjakiar8e8uiejefk dkjkajroiekak; fjdkfjkasjfah
is that better for you?

So let me get this straight.

Muslim men get a cadre of beautiful virgin women in paradise, in addition to their earthly wives.

Sure why not? Aside from that..some people differ on whether or not 7oor el3yen are only female.. there is a difference of opinion.. I am curious as to how many women you've been through in this life? or will be given for a life expectancy of say 70-80yrs as long as the blue pill keeps working for ya? you seem to begrudge people company for a life eternal...

Women, on the other hand, only get what they come in with.

There is a whole chapter on the akhira section of what we know women get. Fact is paradise has
'ma la 3ynon ra'at wla ozhnon sami3at' That which no eyes have seen or ears have heard!

Do women get slave-boys too, like the men? Can they have sex with them?

Everyone gets servant immortal boys!

What if you're an unmarried woman and you die and go to heaven?

Then you'll find a divinly chosen lover in heaven

So what happens in the meantime, before your bodies are raised?

You are in a place called barzakh.. similar to being in a sleep state only you are aware of your death and your punishment, like a bad nightmare from which you are to awaken to a harsh reality!

Okay, but without their bodies, how are the martyrs' souls going to enjoy all the delicious fruit and virgin women in heaven? It seems like all the pleasures in your heaven are physical, so why would you want to go there without a body?

Martyrs souls are transfigured into the bodies of green birds in paradise

What happens if you die before you're 33?

You are dead!

You can lobotomize someone and completely change their personality. People with brain damage, Alzeihmers, etc. have different minds than when before they had their disease. And as you learn things growing up, your brain physically changes too.

Your point being?

Since the mind, or the soul, seem wholly tied to the physicality of the brain, I'm curious as to what is the default "brain state" in heaven.

Who said the soul is tied to the brain? 'inma aroo7 min amr rabbi' the soul is a matter of God and can't be quantified or linked to any physical aspect of ourselves.

I'm also very curious as to WHERE your heaven is. It's obviously a physical place, and people go there with bodies. Is it like a floating continent in the sky? Is it on another planet? Does Earth magically turn into Heaven on the Last Day? I'm mostly familiar with Christian conceptions of heaven as a "spiritual" place (whatever that means), so this is all very new to me.

No earth will not turn into heaven, all the planets will explode, the earth will reveal its burdens, it is all in the Quran.. read it sometime, so you are not wasting everyone's time with your sophomoric talk through your hat ey?

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا زُلْزِلَتِ الْأَرْضُ زِلْزَالَهَا {1}

[Pickthal 99:1] When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake

وَأَخْرَجَتِ الْأَرْضُ أَثْقَالَهَا {2}

[Pickthal 99:2] And Earth yieldeth up her burdens,

وَقَالَ الْإِنسَانُ مَا لَهَا {3}

[Pickthal 99:3] And man saith: What aileth her?

يَوْمَئِذٍ تُحَدِّثُ أَخْبَارَهَا {4}

[Pickthal 99:4] That day she will relate her chronicles,

بِأَنَّ رَبَّكَ أَوْحَى لَهَا {5}

[Pickthal 99:5] Because thy Lord inspireth her.

يَوْمَئِذٍ يَصْدُرُ النَّاسُ أَشْتَاتًا لِّيُرَوْا أَعْمَالَهُمْ {6}

[Pickthal 99:6] That day mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds.

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَرَهُ {7}

[Pickthal 99:7] And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَرَهُ {8}

[Pickthal 99:8] And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.


Another sura describing the event.. translated

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.. you can pretty much find the answers all throughout the Quran...


What a sad state that day for a kaffir..


cheers!

[جوري]

Another sura on the day.. they are numerous, I can't imagine why some simply won't pick up a book and read it?

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا السَّمَاء انشَقَّتْ {1}

[Pickthal 84:1] When the heaven is split asunder

وَأَذِنَتْ لِرَبِّهَا وَحُقَّتْ {2}

[Pickthal 84:2] And attentive to her Lord in fear,

وَإِذَا الْأَرْضُ مُدَّتْ {3}

[Pickthal 84:3] And when the earth is spread out

وَأَلْقَتْ مَا فِيهَا وَتَخَلَّتْ {4}

[Pickthal 84:4] And hath cast out all that was in her, and is empty

وَأَذِنَتْ لِرَبِّهَا وَحُقَّتْ {5}

[Pickthal 84:5] And attentive to her Lord in fear!

يَا أَيُّهَا الْإِنسَانُ إِنَّكَ كَادِحٌ إِلَى رَبِّكَ كَدْحًا فَمُلَاقِيهِ {6}

[Pickthal 84:6] Thou, verily, O man, art working toward thy Lord a work which thou wilt meet (in His presence).

فَأَمَّا مَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ {7}

[Pickthal 84:7] Then whoso is given his account in his right hand

فَسَوْفَ يُحَاسَبُ حِسَابًا يَسِيرًا {8}

[Pickthal 84:8] He truly will receive an easy reckoning

وَيَنقَلِبُ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ مَسْرُورًا {9}

[Pickthal 84:9] And will return unto his folk in joy.

وَأَمَّا مَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ وَرَاء ظَهْرِهِ {10}

[Pickthal 84:10] But whoso is given his account behind his back,

فَسَوْفَ يَدْعُو ثُبُورًا {11}

[Pickthal 84:11] He surely will invoke destruction

وَيَصْلَى سَعِيرًا {12}

[Pickthal 84:12] And be thrown to scorching fire.

إِنَّهُ كَانَ فِي أَهْلِهِ مَسْرُورًا {13}

[Pickthal 84:13] He verily lived joyous with his folk,

إِنَّهُ ظَنَّ أَن لَّن يَحُورَ {14}

[Pickthal 84:14] He verily deemed that he would never return (unto Allah).

بَلَى إِنَّ رَبَّهُ كَانَ بِهِ بَصِيرًا {15}

[Pickthal 84:15] Nay, but lo! his Lord is ever looking on him!

فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالشَّفَقِ {16}

[Pickthal 84:16] Oh, I swear by the afterglow of sunset,

وَاللَّيْلِ وَمَا وَسَقَ {17}

[Pickthal 84:17] And by the night and all that it enshroudeth,

وَالْقَمَرِ إِذَا اتَّسَقَ {18}

[Pickthal 84:18] And by the moon when she is at the full,

لَتَرْكَبُنَّ طَبَقًا عَن طَبَقٍ {19}

[Pickthal 84:19] That ye shall journey on from plane to plane.

فَمَا لَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {20}

[Pickthal 84:20] What aileth them, then, that they believe not

وَإِذَا قُرِئَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقُرْآنُ لَا يَسْجُدُونَ {21}

[Pickthal 84:21] And, when the Qur'an is recited unto them, worship not (Allah)?

بَلِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ يُكَذِّبُونَ {22}

[Pickthal 84:22] Nay, but those who disbelieve will deny;

وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُوعُونَ {23}

[Pickthal 84:23] And Allah knoweth best what they are hiding.

فَبَشِّرْهُم بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ {24}

[Pickthal 84:24] So give them tidings of a painful doom,

إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّالِحَاتِ لَهُمْ أَجْرٌ غَيْرُ مَمْنُونٍ {25}

[Pickthal 84:25] Save those who believe and do good works, for theirs is a reward unfailing.

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*****

reflect some people on the final destination...imsad

cheers

[Woodrow]

I really doubt any human can or every has been able to understand eternity. we are too wrapped up with the what we perceive as time and have no way to see beyond that which we can measure.

[جوري]

I really doubt any human can or every has been able to understand eternity. we are too wrapped up with the what we perceive as time and have no way to see beyond that which we can measure.

Agreed.. yet some here seem adamant on getting a super human explanation and if it were to be offered it would be met with the same mockery & derided with contempt.. tell me then what is the point?

I think another section for the kuffar would be great, although I can't imagine how that would differ from an atheist forum where they can meet with like minds and simply mock the delusions of everyone in the world is minus their own kin all 7&#37; of the illuminati ;D
:w:

[MustafaMc]

I really doubt any human can or every has been able to understand eternity. we are too wrapped up with the what we perceive as time and have no way to see beyond that which we can measure.

I completely agree. I have also thought the same regarding our inability to comprehend Allah given our human limitations regarding the Unseen.

[Malaikah]

how can you possibly believe this earth/life = crap hole?
god made this earth and gave you and me life, how can you disdain it? he made this planet and filled it full of beauty and things that are a source of constant wonder and awe.
you may think it is but a passing shadow compared to eternity but that does not mean that it is not wonderful and beautiful and full of miracles and much to be thankful for.

Yeh, that's true. But there is a lot of evil too!

[syilla]

Awww... I wanted fluffy wings~~~imsad

erm... i don't think we will have wings.... :D but probably you can fly if you want to. :p

[syilla]

yeah...i don't think we should be complaining about this life.

Is just that most muslims prefer jannah than this dunya (world).

[snakelegs]

Yeh, that's true. But there is a lot of evil too!

yes there is.
this concept is something that i've thought about for quite awhile so i have kidnapped aamirsaab and started a new thread.:playing: hope it gets approved before judgement day. :playing:
:hiding:

[MustafaMc]

i know this type of thinking is not uncommon among religious people. i find it incomprehensible and troubling.
how can you possibly believe this earth/life = crap hole?
god made this earth and gave you and me life, how can you disdain it? he made this planet and filled it full of beauty and things that are a source of constant wonder and awe.
you may think it is but a passing shadow compared to eternity but that does not mean that it is not wonderful and beautiful and full of miracles and much to be thankful for.

Yes, I agree with you Snakeleggs. This life and this world definitely have more value than a toilet. This life is an amazing gift even with all of its suffering and pain there is still a lot of beauty and kindness. However, we Muslims believe that as compared to the Hereafter, the suffering even of the Jews in the Nazi death camps of WWII does not hold a candle to that of those in Hell. Likewise, the pleasures enjoyed by the richest kings on earth can't compare to what will be enjoyed by the lowest ranking person in Heaven. As I said, this life has tremendous value in that how we spend it determines our Eternity.

[snakelegs]

i have created a thread on this subject.
i am coming to understand that i am perhaps not seeing it properly and it is not as it seems to me.
syilla pointed out that my perception of "this world" is not the same as islam's.
when i think of "this world" i think of all the beauty god has given us, not about material wealth and greed, lust etc etc.

[DAWUD_adnan]

erm... i don't think we will have wings.... :D but probably you can fly if you want to. :p

half right...

If you think about it, WE are actually supposed to be the ones to have featherish wings if we had any, becuase we are more organic based.

don't get me wrong i don't care about wings, i'd rather without them, ....uhmmm.. but they still look cool though..

[truemuslim]

^^^ nope they dont look cool...they look cute...lol jk... im sick of this thread... its like...no offence but sorta dumb questions are asked on this by athiests and stuff... its like asking... would u want to eat worms or doritos? wait why would i want doritos when they are sharp, and besides u dont get angry while eating them, why would u want to watch rush hour 3 and eat doritos when u can eat yummy wiggly *disgusting myself* WORMS!?



*sigh*

some things in life that arent supposed to be here, just make others mad, but when madness comes, its coming from something that also shouldnt be here, close to fire, but what turns out fire? water, so when you make wudu, the thing that shouldnt be here...wont be here..now the other things that shoudnt be here... allah will deal with them...

[truemuslim]

i read the last part of my post and it doesnt even make sense to me...






oh now i get it...lol jk

[barney]

One thing, and Ive prolly mentioned this before. But Beer is provided in both Christian and islamic interpretations of heaven.


This is great news, cos i Like beer in A Bun Dance, but given an eternity of drinking it, surely it would be a bit dull and start to taste a bit same-old-same-old.

[------]

:salamext:

^NO NOT BEER in Islaam

Its Alcohol that wont even intoxicate u but u give u PLEASURE

Get the facts right

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

One thing, and Ive prolly mentioned this before. But Beer is provided in both Christian and islamic interpretations of heaven.


This is great news, cos i Like beer in A Bun Dance, but given an eternity of drinking it, surely it would be a bit dull and start to taste a bit same-old-same-old.

Well you could ask God for cherry coke if you really want to. Or anything for that matter.

But you gotta get there first, matey! :D

[------]

:salamext:

^smacked iT!!

[barney]

:salamext:

^NO NOT BEER in Islaam

Its Alcohol that wont even intoxicate u but u give u PLEASURE

Get the facts right

Apologies. I diddnt know that it was non alchoholic beer served.
Have you got any surah or hadeeth about this by the way?

['Abd al-Baari]

^

As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur

[Suran Insaan [76] Verse 5]

And they will be given to drink there of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Zanjabil,-

[Surah Insaan [76] Verse 17]

[And can] the parable of the paradise which the God-conscious are promised [a paradise] wherein there are rivers of water which time does not corrupt, and rivers of milk the taste whereof never alters, and rivers of wine delightful to those who drink it, and rivers of honey of all impurity cleansed, and the enjoyment of all the fruits [of their good deeds] and of forgiveness from their Sustainer -: can this [parable of paradise] be likened unto [the parable of the recompense of] such as are to abide in the fire and be given waters of burning despair to drink, so that it will tear their bowels asunder?

[Surah Muhammad [47] Verse 15]

They will be given a drink of pure wine whereon the seal [of God] will have been set,

[Surah Mutaffifeen [83] Verse 25]

[------]

:salamext:

Sorry it was wine, my mistake;

A similitude of the Garden which those who keep their duty (to Allah) are promised: Therein are rivers of water unpolluted, and rivers of milk whereof the flavour changeth not, and rivers of wine delicious to the drinkers, and rivers of clear-run honey; therein for them is every kind of fruit, with pardon from their Lord. (Are those who enjoy all this) like those who are immortal in the Fire and are given boiling water to drink so that it teareth their bowels?
[Qur'aan, 47:15]

Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss:
On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things):
You will recognize in their faces the brightness of bliss.
Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed:
[Qur'aan, 83:22-25]

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Hell now hell sounds cool.

Great heating,

yep your face will look like a piece of distorted flab when the heats been exposed to you, till it turns to ashes and then nothing

BBQ every night,

yep your the one whos going to be barbequed, i hope you enjoy being eaten

rock n roll and more.

yep your heads going to be smashed on rocks and your body rolled on spikes

he he he...

i knew you were crazy, but now you proved it

[barney]

Cheers for the links. It dosnt say anything about the alcohol content in it.
Is the non-alcohol bit Islamic juriprudence?

Oh, BTW, I dont think your scaring Ranma and i dont think you will. :D

[------]

:salamext:

It says Wine.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Cheers for the links. It dosnt say anything about the alcohol content in it.
Is the non-alcohol bit Islamic juriprudence?

Oh, BTW, I dont think your scaring Ranma and i dont think you will. :D

lol i wasnt trying to scare him, i just didnt like his mocking the concept of heaven or hell.

its not fear or desire that leads to belief. guidance is from Allaah....

[barney]

lol i wasnt trying to scare him, i just didnt like his mocking the concept of heaven or hell.

its not fear or desire that leads to belief. its abstaining from evil and reaching out towards good..

I think both me and him abstain from evil and we reach towards good. But we beleive around 0.00% of scripture is true. How can this be?

Also although we may be lightheartedly prodding a skeptical stick at Heaven and Hell concept, simply reiterating heavens benifits and hells punishments are totally ineffective.
Personally I dont need a you-tube video of hell or a first hand Tourism report fom someone who had spent a short-break weekend there to the 4th hells Furnaceland funpark. i do however need a decent explaination of how hell can exist, why it exists and how it fits into a merciful and benevolent Gods makeup.

[------]

:salamext:

i do however need a decent explaination of how hell can exist, why it exists and how it fits into a merciful and benevolent Gods makeup.

http://www.islamreligion.com/category/61/

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Edit

[IbnAbdulHakim]

barney i take back the statement i made,

i contemplated over some of the reverts to islaam during the life of Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam and realised they lead a very sinful life and yet were guided.

Guidance is from Allaah, thats all i can say :)

[barney]

Meh, sorry. I should have been more specific.
I diddnt mean "Because it says so in the Koran", to me that is just something exists because the thing that tells you it exists says it exists!

I meant ,"and the sub atomic particals that we have found that may have travelled from the farthest reaches of the universe from around the time of the big bang show traces of being exposed to a temperature which is exactly 69 times hotter than earthly fire" (The temperature of hellfire), or something like. "A parallel universe that may contain hell has been debated , based on the positioning of a Black Hole near to the Mormon Deitys planet of Kolob". (im not making this bit up...their god does live on a planet).

[barney]

barney i take back the statement i made,

i contemplated over some of the reverts to islaam during the life of Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam and realised they lead a very sinful life and yet were guided.

Guidance is from Allaah, thats all i can say :)

okiely dokiley. :)

[Azy]

Quick question.
When it's said that in paradise you can pretty much fulfil all your desires, does our current conciousness pass over and we keep our desires. For example if I really enjoy drinking chocolate milkshakes and driving, will I be able to remember that and have them in paradise.
Or is it a feeling of general contentment, or perhaps a new conciousness with new desires?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^

i dont really know but one thing for sure, you will be you in heaven :)

[------]

:salamext:

^ and as aamirsaab said, we gotta get there first! (InshaaAllaah...Ameen)

[Azy]

What happens if, once your in paradise, you find that you've gone off chocolate milkshakes and would much prefer stabbing people in the neck?

[------]

:salamext:

^ U wont have those kind of feelings in Paradise, your heart will be PURE and removed from anger, fear, etc. all the bad emotions.

[AvarAllahNoor]

What happens if, once your in paradise, you find that you've gone off chocolate milkshakes and would much prefer stabbing people in the neck?

I'd rather not think about it, God can deal with it.

[Azy]

IbnAbdulHakim said that I would be myself in paradise. The sum of all your behaviours and emotions are what makes you who you are, if you take half of that away, who is left?
What about people who watch horror films or do bungee jumping because they enjoy being scared?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Edit...duplicate..

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ i should mention in order to enter paradise you need to be completely pure.

in order to be pure you might go through trials which forgive sins such as:

earth hardships
grave hardships
judgement day hardships
hell hardships


when pure, you will enter paradise, and no more bad thoughts will come to your mind :)

[Azy]

I'm not disputing that you have to be pure, I'm saying that some people enjoy being scared through activities that are not impure. If you take away the fear, you take away the object of their desire.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ i understand.

well i dont really know but i do know you get what your heart desires.

so maybe you wont desire what harms others? :)

well we'll have to wait and see really, but this world is such a bad thing to compare the hereafter to :p

[Azy]

Sounds a bit like being constantly sedated. Sounds a bit too much like a forced mind control scenario for me to like the idea of it.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ hey if you dont like heaven thats you innit :p


theres always that otherplace, ya kno.. HELL :|

[------]

:salamext:

^ Point lol.

[KAding]

I would think it would be wrong to take hell or heaven so literally. I always assumed religions meant that we move to a different state of consciousness and reality very much unlike our current state. Concepts such as boredom or even time might not even make sense in such a reality!

Of course, thats how I, as an atheist, always rationalized it. The idea of us happily hopping around in some kind of fairytale land in our current animal form seems so unimaginative. In fact, it does indeed sound unbearable!

[barney]

So in heaven we lose all free will. We spend eternity having our spirit imprinted with a cookie cutter value control system.

Ive just gone right off heaven, Even if i have to pay for my beer in hell.

Its starting to sound like a Matrix style nightmare mixed with stepford wives.

[------]

:salamext:

As IbnAbdulHakim bro said, u can always go to hell if u want :)

[KAding]

So in heaven we lose all free will. We spend eternity having our spirit imprinted with a cookie cutter value control system.

I have to admit it is indeed confusing. Since I believe Islam states that humans sinning is a result of their free will. How can heaven then exist without compromising free will?

I don't think it can. Maybe we should just think of heaven as a perpetual state of happiness, without any kind of mundane human 'activity'. No sensory input, no thought processes, no behavioral output. Just happiness!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

there IS free-will in heaven.


im starting to understand more why so many of you will be in hell forever :|

[barney]

there IS free-will in heaven.


im starting to understand more why so many of you will be in hell forever :|

How can there be free will if my brother in unbeleif above cant stab people in the neck when he's sick of Choccy Milkshake?

[Uthman]

Everybody in paradise will be pure. Pure people don't go around stabbing people anyway!

[KAding]

there IS free-will in heaven.

im starting to understand more why so many of you will be in hell forever :|

But how can there be free will and at the same time no sin? Isn't sin a result of us abusing our free will? I always thought that was the Islamic answer to the 'problem of evil', i.e. why there is evil in a galaxy created by a just God?

[KAding]

Everybody in paradise will be pure. Pure people don't go around stabbing people anyway!

So God will change your character before you go to heaven? Since I assume you agree that in our current state on this planet nobody is 'pure'? We all sin occasionally, no?

[Azy]

Everybody in paradise will be pure. Pure people don't go around stabbing people anyway!

That's avoiding the question. If there was free will in heaven you would have the option to do that, but apparently you don't.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

honestly are you guys looking for an answer or not?

i already explained the process before going to heaven.

no free-will is taken away.


you will only be pure! its only the impurities within which make you wish to do harmful acctivities!`

[Azy]

So in theory you could go on a killing spree, but you just won't want to...

What if I want to feel a full range of emotions? Is my free will not compromised?

[Uthman]

Unless you're in there eternally, the purpose of the hellfire is not only to punish you for your sins, but to take away all your impurities. Therefore, when you go to paradise all your impurities will have been taken away in the hellfire.

Like the brother said, once you are pure, then you will not want to do anything bad, because it is the impurities within you that make you want to do bad.

But that doesn't mean that you don't have free will. Do you see the difference?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

So in theory you could go on a killing spree, but you just won't want to...

What if I want to feel a full range of emotions? Is my free will not compromised?

^ first you complain that God is too cruel for allowing rape and all this what not to complain then you want to go on a killing spree in heaven.


lol you nutter :D

[Uthman]

Impurities cause the desire to do bad things.
Impurities will be cleaned away.
Therefore, the desire to do bad things and feel bad things will have been removed.
You are still free to do whatever you want.
But you will be pure, and you will be glad that you are pure!

[KAding]

Thanks for the reply :). So free will is not as such a cause of sins, it's just that impurities manifests themselves through free will. So any impurities we have (some have more than others I assume) would be removed when we go to heaven.

Still a bit confused about some things though.
1. Are we all born pure?
2. How do we become impure?

The reason I ask is because you'd think you would become 'impure' due to your own actions, i.e. the choices you made in life. But that can't be true than can it? I mean, since free will as such is apparently not the cause for impurity and sinning. But surely we are all born with equal 'purity'? Since otherwise it would not be a level playing field for the 'test of life'?

Sorry for being a bit of a pain, but I'm genuinely confused!

[Azy]

first you complain that God is too cruel for allowing rape and all this what not to complain then you want to go on a killing spree in heaven.

Any answer for the second part?

[barney]

Hang on, so sin isnt the problem, being impure is the problem. The only surefire way to remove impuritys is to pour petrol on myself and have a fag.

[Uthman]

1. Are we all born pure?
2. How do we become impure?

For this, you should research the Islamic concept of Fitrah. :)

I'll see if I can find anything.

[Azy]

Is this acceptable?

[BROJX]

I think alot of people misinterprete what is ment by what is written.The last days are here but are not over yet.Heaven is a condition just as hell is a condition that we put ourselves in.what we are going thru and what have been going thru is hell.

[Uthman]

Greetings Azy,

Is this acceptable?

I would say so, yes. :)

Regards

[aamirsaab]

Hang on, so sin isnt the problem, being impure is the problem. The only surefire way to remove impuritys is to pour petrol on myself and have a fag.

That would certainly get rid of any PHYSICAL impurities. It'd probably kill you too, which'd count as suicide....which is a sin and also a ticket to hell....:X

What was meant by impurity is more of spritual and mental impurity e.g. dirty thoughts, dirty mindset etc.

[Keltoi]

From a Christian perspective, Heaven isn't really viewed as a physical paradise with trees, gardens, drink, etc, etc. Now we don't know exactly what form our existence will take in the afterlife, but I don't understand my Earthly or bodily desires to have much point at all in a spiritual afterlife. Perhaps this is another example of where Islam and Christianity differ.

[------]

there IS free-will in heaven.


im starting to understand more why so many of you will be in hell forever :|

:salamext:

:lol: ... :X

[barney]

Let me get this straight.
We are all born in a state of submission to Allah, and have "Original Goodness". Environmental influences, such as having Inuit or Hottentot parents will err us away from this state. In order to re-attain it, we have to re-submit to Allah by reverting to Islam,(even if we have never been one or heard of it.
Once we have reverted, we use out free will to make choices.
God will judge us on those choices at the day of reckoning. Based on what he wills we will either enter Jannah or head into the burning pit to be cleansed of our sin for varying amounts of time untill the pain has purged us of that sin. Thenceforth, at his will we will enter paradise or if we have rejected him, we will remain in the fire for all eternity everlasting.

Is that correct?

[Azy]

What I can gather from that site is that we are all born with purity and the knowledge of the oneness of god and a desire to submit to him. Essentially everyone is a muslim from conception and they are swayed from the true path later on.

Impurities cause the desire to do bad things.
Impurities will be cleaned away.
Therefore, the desire to do bad things and feel bad things will have been removed.

"The central hadith makes plain that it is the social circumstances after the birth of the child that causes the individual to diverge from fitrah. Hence if someone follows an aberrant path it is not because of any innate wrong within his nature, but because of the emergence of the lower self or nafs after birth, and negative effects in the social circumstances."

Not so much impurities within you, but ignoring the purity you were born with by choice.

"Although all children are born in a state of fitrah, the influence of the environment is decisive; parents may influence the religion of the child by making him a Christian, Jew or Magian. If there are no adverse influences, then the child will continuously manifest his fitrah as his true nature."

From this it seems that your ability to choose what you do or what you accept to believe determines whether you become a muslim or not and consequently your admittance to paradise.
Therefore in order to restrict a persons desire to do bad in paradise you would have to restrict their will, as their innate desire (fitrah) is to do good (in an islamic sense).

[جوري]

in heaven there is that which no eye has seen, nor ears have heard.. I think that is an adequate summation of heaven.. 'Janna' (paradise) janna literally in Arabic denotes 'that which is hidden from sight'

Any hypotheticals raised by kaffirs and answered by a Muslim are utterly futile and ineffectual at this stage, considering none of us have been to heaven to speak so freely of it. Again and for the last time, we are described minor things of heaven that we all love simply because it is something the mind can relate to and contrast to worldly pleasures. Anything beyond that, of whether there will be horror movies or wings or the urge to murder or other gamut of emotions is not only as asinine as the minds that have ptyalized but is inconsequential to our current state of being .. anyone can argue any sort of nonsense to sway people from their due course...

sort of like your failure friend who keeps distracting you from studying for exams by mocking institutions, degrees professors and earning an honest living.

Some people are hard to satisfy, I think they are best left in their disoriented state to figure things out on their own..

:w:

[barney]

Eve, if they diddnt want to talk to us about it, they wouldnt.
It's not like we are going to change peeps minds on this and suddenly collapse theism on a forum with a few posts. Chill.

I think the Muslims or christians or jews who want to debate this with us should excercise their free will to do so. .....Whilst they still have it!!!! :D

[KAding]

What I can gather from that site is that we are all born with purity and the knowledge of the oneness of god and a desire to submit to him. Essentially everyone is a muslim from conception and they are swayed from the true path later on.

"The central hadith makes plain that it is the social circumstances after the birth of the child that causes the individual to diverge from fitrah. Hence if someone follows an aberrant path it is not because of any innate wrong within his nature, but because of the emergence of the lower self or nafs after birth, and negative effects in the social circumstances."

Not so much impurities within you, but ignoring the purity you were born with by choice.

"Although all children are born in a state of fitrah, the influence of the environment is decisive; parents may influence the religion of the child by making him a Christian, Jew or Magian. If there are no adverse influences, then the child will continuously manifest his fitrah as his true nature."

From this it seems that your ability to choose what you do or what you accept to believe determines whether you become a muslim or not and consequently your admittance to paradise.
Therefore in order to restrict a persons desire to do bad in paradise you would have to restrict their will, as their innate desire (fitrah) is to do good (in an islamic sense).

Hmm, perhaps. This is all a bit confusing.

Here is how I understand it now:

Premise #1: You are born pure
Premise #2: Free will is not the cause of impurities
Premise #3: God does not remove free will but only impurities when you enter Heaven
Premise #4: 'Social circumstances' in which you are born are the source of impurities

So, apparently the 'social circumstances' cause you to 'diverge from fitrah'. So if the social circumstances are perfect then there would be no evil. So for this to work Heaven must have perfect 'social circumstances'!

[KAding]

in heaven there is that which no eye has seen, nor ears have heard.. I think that is an adequate summation of heaven.. 'Janna' (paradise) janna literally in Arabic denotes 'that which is hidden from sight'

Any hypotheticals raised by kaffirs and answered by a Muslim are utterly futile and ineffectual at this stage, considering none of us have been to heaven to speak so freely of it. Again and for the last time, we are described minor things of heaven that we all love simply because it is something the mind can relate to and contrast to worldly pleasures. Anything beyond that, of whether there will be horror movies or wings or the urge to murder or other gamut of emotions is not only as asinine as the minds that have ptyalized but is inconsequential to our current state of being .. anyone can argue any sort of nonsense to sway people from their due course...

sort of like your failure friend who keeps distracting you from studying for exams by mocking institutions, degrees professors and earning an honest living.

Some people are hard to satisfy, I think they are best left in their disoriented state to figure things out on their own..

:w:

Thank you for those kind words ;).

Perhaps you should see us as an opportunity rather than a threat? After all, discussions like this provoke Muslims to look very closely at their own scriptures. So it has three effects:
1. You might learn something yourself
2. You teach us
3. You can hone your conversion skills :D

[KAding]

From a Christian perspective, Heaven isn't really viewed as a physical paradise with trees, gardens, drink, etc, etc. Now we don't know exactly what form our existence will take in the afterlife, but I don't understand my Earthly or bodily desires to have much point at all in a spiritual afterlife. Perhaps this is another example of where Islam and Christianity differ.

Perhaps you are right. The way Islam depicts Hell, as an physical fire where the skin of your own physical body is burned off, makes it hard to not see it as earthly. After all the Qu'ran doesn't say 'your soul will be tormented for eternity', it says 'your body will be tormented for eternity'. Which more or less implies a physical place to which your earthly body is transported for punishment.

[Azy]

So, apparently the 'social circumstances' cause you to 'diverge from fitrah'. So if the social circumstances are perfect then there would be no evil.

Then I don't understand where I went wrong. My family are not religious, I can't remember one word ever being said on the subject, I didn't go to a religious school or have friends who were outwardly religious. Despite a complete absence of external influences towards any religion or way of being, I had no innate desire to submit to god nor did I even consider him until my late school years. Why was I not compelled to accept god if it is within everyone from birth or before?

but is inconsequential to our current state of being

I wouldn't say that. If there was no concept of hell and no punishment in the afterlife then that would affect a person's decisions about their behaviour. Apparently humans can't be trusted to do the right thing on their own so they need a myriad of rules and threats of eternal flame to keep them on the straight and narrow.

The literal alternative given in scripture is having young boys follow you around as you walk along the bank of a warm milk river. The slightly more appealing version is unending aeons of lobotomised bliss where you can do whatever you want so long as it's on the menu.

[جوري]

Eve, if they diddnt want to talk to us about it, they wouldnt.
It's not like we are going to change peeps minds on this and suddenly collapse theism on a forum with a few posts. Chill.

I think the Muslims or christians or jews who want to debate this with us should excercise their free will to do so. .....Whilst they still have it!!!! :D

I detest benumbing sessions don't you?....surely you can tell the difference between mutual expression of opposing views and plain moronity?

Hmm, perhaps. This is all a bit confusing.

Here is how I understand it now:

Premise #1: You are born pure
Premise #2: Free will is not the cause of impurities
Premise #3: God does not remove free will but only impurities when you enter Heaven
Premise #4: 'Social circumstances' in which you are born are the source of impurities

So, apparently the 'social circumstances' cause you to 'diverge from fitrah'. So if the social circumstances are perfect then there would be no evil. So for this to work Heaven must have perfect 'social circumstances'!

I agree with that in part.. but I believe it is one's own nature and inclination as well.. many verses in the Quran allude that it is the nature, the heart of man that leads his aright or astray and to me there is no greater expression of free will... I reference you to Suret Al-Anfal if interested in a further elaboration on that? :)

I wouldn't say that. If there was no concept of hell and no punishment in the afterlife then that would affect a person's decisions about their behaviour. Apparently humans can't be trusted to do the right thing on their own so they need a myriad of rules and threats of eternal flame to keep them on the straight and narrow.

The literal alternative given in scripture is having young boys follow you around as you walk along the bank of a warm milk river. The slightly more appealing version is unending aeons of lobotomised bliss where you can do whatever you want so long as it's on the menu.

What you say, is a product of your own mind and has no basis in reality or even in religious jurisprudence, nor does it provide or find its foundation in anything other than the depraved mind of an angry down on his luck atheist and is therefore of no consequence!

a word to the wise.. enjoy life.. a few months ago I attended the autopsy on a 25 year old.. can't imagine a more grievous way to spend ones 'rather short life' save for confabulating on random forums asking preposterous questions and not particularly looking for answers, or not finding any answer satisfactory......


Some people make a more impressive existence as anatomical gifts rather than functional human beings --which is such a shame, a shame the organization and intelligent thought that goes into any of the numerous biochemical reactions that occur in the body on their own volition, or in nature or in the universe, while not a single profound impressive thought will cross your cerebral hemispheres!

cheers

[جوري]

Perhaps you are right. The way Islam depicts Hell, as an physical fire where the skin of your own physical body is burned off, makes it hard to not see it as earthly. After all the Qu'ran doesn't say 'your soul will be tormented for eternity', it says 'your body will be tormented for eternity'. Which more or less implies a physical place to which your earthly body is transported for punishment.

You should read more about punishment in hell if interested as there are volumes of literature... people will have different bodies than the one they have on this earth, but will have bodies nonetheless.. in fact on this very thread a few pages ago, I have enclosed suret al-waqi3a, let me see if I can re-link it here http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...l#post887917--
skin in hell will constantly be replaced.. people's preception of pain doesn't extend to third and fourth degree burns due to lack of nerve endings, only first and 2nd degree burns are extremely painful.. hence the constant replacement!

Punishment of the grave befalls the soul while punishment upon resurrection is that of the body-- and eternally!...


cheers

[Trumble]

skin in hell will constantly be replaced.. people's preception of pain doesn't extend to third and fourth degree burns due to lack of nerve endings, only first and 2nd degree burns are extremely painful.. hence the constant replacement!

Punishment of the grave befalls the soul while punishment upon resurrection is that of the body-- and eternally!...

Its utterly beyond my comprehension how an entity sadistic enough to come up with that could possibly be reconciled with the 'all merciful' God we keep hearing about. It can't, of course; its throwing logic to the wind in order to dream up horror stories to scare the children (and the gullible with less excuse) into line. Surely Islam can move on from such medieval clap-trap?

[barney]

Its interesting how you meld your doctors intelligence with scriptural promises. :D
We must have very different bodies indeed, for the second degree burns to actually be replaced.
I know that your aware of skin regeneration properties to a far greater excess than i am.

Would this involve a wholly complete cell reconstruction , (which would anchor the events within human understanding), from outside the subdermis, or are we talking "God steps in and Makes a new skin".

That would neccssitate a fairly long period of healing for the epidermis to regenerate in which time frame , i suppose, the pain would really become the norm, and the actual torment would be the boredom.


Akin to heaven.

[جوري]

Its utterly beyond my comprehension how an entity sadistic enough to come up with that could possibly be reconciled with the 'all merciful' God we keep hearing about. It can't, of course; its throwing logic to the wind in order to dream up horror stories to scare the children (and the gullible with less excuse) into line. Surely Islam can move on from such medieval clap-trap?

It is beyond your comprehension I agree...

cheers

[جوري]

Its interesting how you meld your doctors intelligence with scriptural promises. :D
We must have very different bodies indeed, for the second degree burns to actually be replaced.
I know that your aware of skin regeneration properties to a far greater excess than i am.

Would this involve a wholly complete cell reconstruction , (which would anchor the events within human understanding), from outside the subdermis, or are we talking "God steps in and Makes a new skin".

That would neccssitate a fairly long period of healing for the epidermis to regenerate in which time frame , i suppose, the pain would really become the norm, and the actual torment would be the boredom.


Akin to heaven.

wound healing by earth's physical laws? lol
hope your prone to keloids.. they'll buffer the shock...
surely even you can think in more abstract terms?

cheers

[Trumble]

It is beyond your comprehension I agree...

And yours, presumably, as you seem unable to provide any plausible explanation for such a glaring contradiction!

[barney]

Meh, thats ok. Im cool with contradictions from eve. Its all instructive. :)

Night folks..getting late here in the center of idolatry that is england. Sleep tight.

[جوري]

Thank you for those kind words ;).

Perhaps you should see us as an opportunity rather than a threat? After all, discussions like this provoke Muslims to look very closely at their own scriptures. So it has three effects:
1. You might learn something yourself
2. You teach us
3. You can hone your conversion skills :D

my humble apologies, I seem to have replied to you in a post that you'd directed to another...

1-I fail to see how writing mindless drivel can be construed as a threat to me personally? Nothing has value unless I choose to give it value, to be honest, and this is truly out of frankness I couldn't give a flying fig what atheists think, and I don't believe they have much an impact in the sceheme of things I view some of them as pesky nuisance.. amusing in the beginning, but eventually so lacking in interest as to cause mental weariness..

2-It seems to me foolish to look for one's education on various blogs and on the hands on unemployed atheists with too much free time on their hands?

3- like wise I don't think the majority of you are here to learn.. it is something in the presentation.. I know we subtract 'tone of voice and body language' but sincereity and the love of learning, is always visible to the naked eyes... hence I ask others from refraining of answering inane questions and propositions.. my utlimate goal is so to not subject anything holy to the usual mindless ridicule...

4- conversion skills? lol to be honest I couldn't care less what becomes of anyone' soul... each soul is held in pledge by its own deeds..it is not a community effort!

cheers

[جوري]

And yours, presumably, as you seem unable to provide any plausible explanation for such a glaring contradiction!

Allah SWT doesn't need a defense, he is well acquainted with who deserves what.. I am in no mood for analogies..

cheers

[جوري]

Meh, thats ok. Im cool with contradictions from eve. Its all instructive. :)

you can eliminate feces and write too?...awe-inspiring!!!

cheers...

[Azy]

What you say, is a product of your own mind and has no basis in reality or even in religious jurisprudence, nor does it provide or find its foundation in anything other than the depraved mind of an angry down on his luck atheist and is therefore of no consequence!

Even if I were an atheist, and down on my luck, I would much prefer that to being an arrogant theist. All your retorts seem to consist of casting aspersions on my character rather than making an actual point.

a word to the wise.. enjoy life.. a few months ago I attended the autopsy on a 25 year old.. can't imagine a more grievous way to spend ones 'rather short life' save for confabulating on random forums asking preposterous questions and not particularly looking for answers, or not finding any answer satisfactory......

Say for example you came across a Gordonist, some religion you'd never heard of before, and he tells you that the human body was made whole and perfect and that any tampering with it is useless. If someone has a liver or kidney failure, attempting to replace it would be pointless and should not even be attempted. He's got a leaflet and some websites that describe why organ transplantation is not viable.
Would you say "hang on a second, I've seen a kidney transplant and even though I've not seen a liver transplant, I read the medical journals and I know it can be performed"?

[------]

:salamext:

rather than making an actual point.

even if we repeat the same post over and over again, u will not accept anything, nor will u want to open ur mind. thats u then innit. not our fault

[جوري]

Even if I were an atheist, and down on my luck, I would much prefer that to being an arrogant theist. All your retorts seem to consist of casting aspersions on my character rather than making an actual point.

you seem to be under some false impression that you are bringing something of value to the table that merits some sort of a thoughtful response?.. I direct the dear reader's attention to your subsequent paragraph as an exemplification of your logic or lackthereof!

Say for example you came across a Gordonist, some religion you'd never heard of before, and he tells you that the human body was made whole and perfect and that any tampering with it is useless. If someone has a liver or kidney failure, attempting to replace it would be pointless and should not even be attempted. He's got a leaflet and some websites that describe why organ transplantation is not viable.
Would you say "hang on a second, I've seen a kidney transplant and even though I've not seen a liver transplant, I read the medical journals and I know it can be performed"?

what sort of arbitrary and reasonless analogy is this? lol.. thank you for providing me with excellent comic relief for the day ;D ;D ;D

cheers

[Azy]

what sort of arbitrary and reasonless analogy is this? lol.. thank you for providing me with excellent comic relief for the day ;D ;D ;D

You assiduously avoid giving me any kind of answer. You know exactly of what I'm speaking, the demands by muslims for proof on various topics where science conflicts with religious tenet. When proof is given it is always invalid, always propaganda of a worldwide science conspiracy by some nameless, faceless establishment that for no apparent reason or benefit wishes to deny the existence of god.

Making flippant comments and sidestepping the real questions might fly with the locals and help you escape questioning your beliefs, but they do not impress anyone else.

Feel free to answer my previous question if i am wrong.

[barney]

Basically i think the theists are saying, its a real fire that really burns real bodies with a real worldly temperature of 69 times hotter than earth's fire, but the wound healing is supernaturally different.
The Shirts handed out are made of your common and garden pitch, perhaps in various sizes and styles. Theyre blazing with the hotter flames doing the sort of damage you would expect, followed by healing to repeat the process for eternity or a specified time.

[chacha_jalebi]

i think this thread has been answered, its goin around in circles now

if anyone dont wana believe thats up to them

our duty is to give the message, if you dnt wana accept it then erm good luck for the future:D

:threadclo