Won't you participate in my experiment please?

[جوري]

In time, this could be moved into a more appropriate section..

for not let's commence ..
I have exclusive rights to a brand new treatment, not out on the market yet.. **** that FDA but I digress
in it a group of erudite scientists have decoded the keys of life using our own genetics, they have found a way to eliminate natural apopotosis and a new gene configured only synthetically and injected via a vector which would eleminate all cellular aging. There is a booster dose a 'rejuvenation serum' that will need to be administered every 10 yrs to maintain life and can only be given through your health care professional.

There is a list of questionnaire that needs to be filled out, and then acceptance is based on criteria, you understand of course this injections can't be given to everybody but to a select few.. and in a nutshell it would mean IMMORTALITY...
MY question is of course would you sign up?
Would you choose to live on this earth forever and why?

thank you

[☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆]

umm... i voted no..
id prefer to leave my existence as it is and as Allah intended it to be... Alhamdulilah
intresting topic tho

[جوري]

Thank you for your vote dear sis

:w:

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Say (to them): "Verily, the death from which you flee will surely meet you, then you will be sent back to (Allah), the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen,

And He will tell you what you used to do."


[Qur'an 62: 8]



loads of people have tried immortality through so many ways.. i believe it's impossible for us humans to live forever in this world, we would die in one way or another..

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[------]

:salamext:

Is this living forever on earth or living forever in Heaven?

[snakelegs]

voted no.
although i love my life, i don't think i'd want to live forever. (what is forever anyway? beyond imagination.)

[guyabano]

I also voted NO ! No WHEN and no IF !

[Woodrow]

Absolutly not.

Although I love life and do know I am in my twilight time. I have no desire to extend it one single second nor to lessen it one single second.

I intend to enjoy what time remains to it's fullest, that Allaah(swt) permits me to and I intend to savor every moment. Yet, it is a burden. Even if I had perfect health and unlimited resources, life on this earth is simply a time to learn and be tested. It is a short step from joy to pain once the lesson of life has been completed and the trials are over.

Immortal life on earth would eventually be a punishment second only to hellfire.

I have served my time on earth, grant me what I have earned and allow me to graduate from this place of trials.

[جوري]

:salamext:


Say (to them): "Verily, the death from which you flee will surely meet you, then you will be sent back to (Allah), the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen,

And He will tell you what you used to do."


[Qur'an 62: 8]



loads of people have tried immortality through so many ways.. i believe it's impossible for us humans to live forever in this world, we would die in one way or another..

You are killing my experiment akhi.. I just need people to play along for a while.. I have composed this thread based on another in comparative..
the 'right ho. in heaven now what' I just mainly want to see how the atheists respond..

:w:

[جوري]

:salamext:

Is this living forever on earth or living forever in Heaven?

here on earth.. get to see all its phases...

[------]

:salamext:

Jazaak Allaah Khayr

EDIT: Nah wouldn't wanna live on this earth lol, tis mashed :-\

[جوري]

voted no.
although i love my life, i don't think i'd want to live forever. (what is forever anyway? beyond imagination.)

Some concede that the universe has always existed..
forever, you'd get to see empires rise and fall, new stars form, technology improve, life maybe on new planets, a chance to read every book ever written, experience new fashions, new ideas, new inventions, new people.. etc etc etc

[Pk_#2]

Naaaaaaaaah mate, Hellllll no.

Alright sis?

AsalamuAlaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.

[snakelegs]

Some concede that the universe has always existed..
forever, you'd get to see empires rise and fall, new stars form, technology improve, life maybe on new planets, a chance to read every book ever written, experience new fashions, new ideas, new inventions, new people.. etc etc etc

lol. i'll pass. at some point, it is enough.

[جوري]

lol. i'll pass. at some point, it is enough.

So what you are saying is, there is a need for death? all our scientist friends can take their business else where? millions of dollars on wasted research and pharmaceutical company patent, clinical trials all to hell?
come on now.. what purpose does death serve?


peace

[snakelegs]

why does it need to serve a purpose? obviously, we are meant to die or we wouldn't.
medical research should be to alleviate suffering.

[Pk_#2]

why does it need to serve a purpose? obviously, we are meant to die or we wouldn't.
medical research should be to alleviate suffering.

No no you're doing it all wrong snakey, this is where you are menno say, ' Cause I wana go to heaven innay'

Ok now im outta this thread..I think

Peace.

[caroline]

I can barely stand the injustice and suffering as it is. I'm glad I'm 50 and don't have a lot of years stretched out before me because this world is more and more rife with pain and war and bigotry, mass atrocities, murderous empires, greed and poverty... No, I certainly would not want to be on this earth forever. I'll be doing good just to hold out for however many more years Allah holds me here.

[جوري]

why does it need to serve a purpose?

Everything else does, especially when it is a global experience, as in skips no one, much like the need to eat or pee or sleep...

obviously, we are meant to die or we wouldn't.

I agree

medical research should be to alleviate suffering.

And agree with that too...


peace!

[Woodrow]

Oddly death is not part of the normal life process for the majority of life on earth. the most common and widely spread life forms are uni cellular. Natural Death and aging as we know it does not exist.

[Pygoscelis]

Live forever? Thats more of a curse than a blessing. I don't want to live forever on earth and I certainly don't want to live forever in this heaven place I keep hearing about. After just a few milenia I think I'd go stir crazy and wish it to end.

[جوري]

Don't worry you won't have to in either domain...:smile:

[ikaj]

If living forever on earth means you can skip judgement day than I wouldn't mind living on earth forever. If your family and friends could live forever too, if you could live in health and not worry about getting old etc. then life on earth wouldn't be so bad. Probably because I haven't been the best follower of my religion and I fear of being punished of sins...

[Fishman]

I certainly don't want to live forever in this heaven place I keep hearing about. After just a few milenia I think I'd go stir crazy and wish it to end.

:sl:
Part of being in Heaven is that you do not experience any sadness, you and everybody else would be happy all the time. Thus, you would not get bored or tired of it in the same way that we do on Earth.
:w:

[ikaj]

Is there such thing as jealousy in heaven? What happens if you are in heaven and two people are in love with the same person (a love triangle) wouldn't that cause jealousy and conflict etc? kind of a silly/off topic question...

[جوري]

. If your family and friends could live forever too, if you could live in health and not worry about getting old etc. then life on earth wouldn't be so bad. ...

Yup, family, friends, advancement, books, change, new good things, space exploration, travel, books, movies, music.. I don't see how a non deist could possibly want to turn down such an offer?

:w:

[Al-Zaara]

I might want to...



...if I stay young-looking and beautiful. :D lol

Someone said "it's bad 'cause you'd sin more", but I might have a more idealistic perspective on this, I think one could do more good in this time... Engage yourself fully in the Deen.

Live a 'normal life' until the people of my generation die, be as a guide for the granchildren that exist, learn from great scholars, then go somewhere all alone place and live in total solitarity, only surrounded my great books of faith etc. become a hermit forever, whom wanderers meet and are amazed by...


But of course, as a Muslim, I do believe even if you'd attain something near immortality, you'd still be kicked to the Hereafter.


Hmm, I'm confused what to vote. :skeleton:

[ikaj]

Yup, family, friends, advancement, books, change, new good things, space exploration, travel, books, movies, music.. I don't see how a non deist could possibly want to turn down such an offer?

:w:

If I knew I was going straight to heaven that would be different. If I was offered life on earth vs not knowing where I am going after death I choose my mundane life over there being a slightest chance that I'm gonna spend anytime in hell

[Trumble]

come on now.. what purpose does death serve?

It makes room.

[Intisar]

:sl: ''Kulu nafsindaa iqatul mawt'' - Verily every soul shall taste death.

Like sis Ayesha said, I'd like to keep my life the way that Allaah Ta'ala intended it to be, so therefore I wouldn't participate.

[جوري]

It makes room.

look at all that unexplored space.. people can set up life else where.. just the pleasure of getting there and finding out new life and if you can co-exist.. new machines for inter-planetary travel .. never having to know loss of family or friends.. always learning, getting new degrees, enough time to see all your off spring and their off spring without ever getting old or tiring, endless days at the beach or in your beach cabin

tons of travel.. I don't see how this could be an offer for anyone to refuse unless there really was another purpose to life and death..

cheers

[snakelegs]

Everything else does, especially when it is a global experience, as in skips no one, much like the need to eat or pee or sleep...



I agree

And agree with that too...


peace!

everything may have a purpose but we are not able to know the reasons for everything.
i have been privileged to be born in a prosperous and relatively free country. i've never gone hungry and i've never had to live through the horrors of war. very few on the planet have this luxury. for this i thank god, but at some point, it is enough.
this reminds me of the saying "be careful what you wish for - you may get it.

[جوري]

this reminds me of the saying "be careful what you wish for - you may get it.

It isn't my wish to be honest.. I suspect that the poll wouldn't really give me an honest estimate, given the pool of people are more religious than not...
But, how many times have I heard the statements 'I hate aging' --'wish I had a chance to go back and do things differently, 'wish I could freeze this moment forever' our mortality undoubtedly plays a large part in our approach to how we live and perceive our existence ...
this thread was really inspired by the ' in paradise, now what?'..

It is because we experience a myriad of emotions that we can differentiate between them and select the few that are endearing to wrap ourselves in their memory ... I don't think many appreciate that it is part of the way we were created---it is because we experience, aging, boredom, disease, debt, depression, that we understand excitement, youth, riches, health.. and we aspire for all of those most of our lives, I know because of the billions spent on the beauty and plastic surgery industry.. people spend their youth working, so they can earn money, to have some in the bank for that retirement home, some for a jar of anti-wrinkle cream, a bottle of hair dye or even plastic surgery if need be, and an occasional trip abroad, a good holiday time with the family, new clothes to buy.. but we experience so much unpleasantness for so few moments of rejoicing and happiness and it is in that contrast to the others unpleasant emotions that makes the good ones so real and actual for us.

But that is all we know.... if God were to communicate with us with what we know of happiness it would be to recapture that which we as humans find most pleasant. How else can we make a contrast? It is in health, eternal youth, family, friends, warmth, streams and meadows that we find our happiness here...

How else to communicate to us when there are no words to describe to conjure up an image of that which no eyes have seen nor ears have heard nor ever occurred to 'the human mind' to what do we compare it to? There is no contrast to what we don't know...

A different creation will not need nor have a reason to be bound by earthly conditions.. We are what we are if we see a different face in the mirror by morning from disease or a burn, or amputation of even a fabulous new body...what is inside of us remains and goes and can most definitely go on to better... Anyhow this was pre-mature a conclusion, as I was hoping to hear some from those who have chosen the other options..

thank you though to all the participants..

peace

[syilla]

Nah...no thanks.

this world is becoming too expensive to live in and too polluted to.

i don't think i'll be happy to live forever...lol

[جوري]

what about on another planet?-- no pollution, reasonably priced, and they want earthly immigrants you know for exhange of ideas, rise of new civilizations hybridization etc and it was beautiful, just breath taking?
some four brave souls voted non-conventionally.. but they don't want to come forth to talk about it.......... hmmmmmmmn ;D

:w:

[syilla]

the thing is i'm too lazy :X.

i'm a very simple lady...not that motivated though :hiding:

:D

[BlackMamba]

Well since ' Every soul shall have a taste of death in the end to Us shall ye be brought back. 29:57" then living forever isnt and option. But I would try it for a little bit to keep living some extra years. I'd just go for Hajj for a last time then I'd get bored of life and stop taking then booster. But I wouldn't want to live forever. No way.

[adeeb]

i dont want to live forever... i want to die as Allah wants, i hope i die in the best emaan...ameen

live forever wouldn't be exciting, the earth is already full of human, disasters and i think like what prophet has said, the day of judgement is coming...

[MustafaMc]

If living forever on earth means you can skip judgement day than I wouldn't mind living on earth forever. If your family and friends could live forever too, if you could live in health and not worry about getting old etc. then life on earth wouldn't be so bad. Probably because I haven't been the best follower of my religion and I fear of being punished of sins...

If I knew I was going straight to heaven that would be different. If I was offered life on earth vs not knowing where I am going after death I choose my mundane life over there being a slightest chance that I'm gonna spend anytime in hell

I voted no, because I presupposed that I would be going to Heaven after my death. These posts puts things in a competely different light. If I knew that my place in the Hereafter was in fact the Hellfire for eternity, then I would definitely choose, "Yes , sign me up for eternity!" If I knew that I would eventually be brought out of the Hellfire before entering Heaven, then "No, I wouldn't participate."

[MartyrX]

I voted no. I have no urge do live on this planet for eternity. Allah (swt) does not have that plan for me.

[ranma1/2]

i think i would like to live much longer (and healthier, not as a crippiled old person).

I would be able to learn more , study more, see more ect.... I think i would like to live untill i stopped developing as a person.

[ranma1/2]

So what you are saying is, there is a need for death? all our scientist friends can take their business else where? millions of dollars on wasted research and pharmaceutical company patent, clinical trials all to hell?
come on now.. what purpose does death serve?


peace

well death itself serves a couple purposes. It allows other creatures to survive. (meat eaters, bacteria, carrion eaters ect...)
It keeps populations in check.
It greater allows for improvement in species through the ellimnation of poorer develped forms. (of course if nothign died i guess this wouldnt matter).

[ranma1/2]

obviously, we are meant to die or we wouldn't.
.

what do you mean by meant?
are people obviously supposed to get cancer ?

I think that death is a natural part of existence. To my knowledge nothing living (and perhaps nonliving) stays in one form forever.

[snakelegs]

what do you mean by meant?
are people obviously supposed to get cancer ?

I think that death is a natural part of existence. To my knowledge nothing living (and perhaps nonliving) stays in one form forever.

we are meant to die.
death is a natural part of existence.
is there a contradiction between these two ideas? i don't see any.

[Whatsthepoint]

I voted for:
Yes I'd give it a try until I got bored then stop going for booster

[crayon]

I'm sort of on the fence with this.
I've got SO many things I want to do, places to go, things to see. Way more than I will probably ever get to do in my lifetime. So I think I'd live long enough just to finish all those things. Then I'd resume my mortality heh.

[Mysterious Uk]

how strange i was talking about this 2 my little sis a couple of days ago. I voted no because every1 i loved wud die and i wudnt. That wud b a bit rubbish. Then again u cud c all ur great great great grandchildren grow up. Plus life wud become a bit crap because people have certain goals in life but if u live forever u got all the time in the world so u wudn't be as motivated to do anything.

[al_islam]

Emotions come and go...you eventually get over them.

It depends if I remain youthful for ever as well.

But I would certainly like to live and see the changes through time.

[Jayda]

In time, this could be moved into a more appropriate section..

for not let's commence ..
I have exclusive rights to a brand new treatment, not out on the market yet.. **** that FDA but I digress
in it a group of erudite scientists have decoded the keys of life using our own genetics, they have found a way to eliminate natural apopotosis and a new gene configured only synthetically and injected via a vector which would eleminate all cellular aging. There is a booster dose a 'rejuvenation serum' that will need to be administered every 10 yrs to maintain life and can only be given through your health care professional.

There is a list of questionnaire that needs to be filled out, and then acceptance is based on criteria, you understand of course this injections can't be given to everybody but to a select few.. and in a nutshell it would mean IMMORTALITY...
MY question is of course would you sign up?
Would you choose to live on this earth forever and why?

thank you

hola,

no... my life does not belong to me. God has secured a birth and a death for me and He has uses for me beyond just this world. we should not fear His plans... that is why taking a bite from the tree of life is forbidden.

que Dios te bendiga

[جوري]

well death itself serves a couple purposes. It allows other creatures to survive. (meat eaters, bacteria, carrion eaters ect...)
It keeps populations in check.
It greater allows for improvement in species through the ellimnation of poorer develped forms. (of course if nothign died i guess this wouldnt matter).

will quote Br. woodrow on this, with his permission

Death is not an evolutionary advantage. Micro organisms do not face any natural death and yet near immortality poses no biological disadvantage to them. There is no biological advantage in death. If life were an undirected evolutionary event, the biological end would be immortal creatures with reproduction limited by population size. asexual reproduction would be the end result with reproduction occurring only in response to the environment's ability to support it

And agree fully with it... I don't think death has any advantage from an evolutionary stand point!


on a separate, I don't believe a great many would stop going for a 'booster' and decide to die once they have made a conscious decision that they want to live and experience-- When boredom sets in, in every day life, one changes activities, recoups and starts anew... can one ever stop learning? I really doubt it... Also the experiment design was made so that it would be the equivalent of a 'fountain of youth' not mere living with the usual cellular degneration...
by the way in real life there is such a gene entitled the 'fountain of youth' it is a proto-oncogene called RET and it is associated with the development of various types of cancer not rejuvenation, though it works in complete opposition of the tp53 which causes apoptosis (natural cell death) cell arrest.. one is the gas and the other is the break so to speak, having one expressed or the other not expressed in both events leads to cancer not life anew..
this has been an over simplification but I enjoyed it, a thank you to all participants..
cheers

[NoName55]

It makes room.

LOL

it is rather a redundant practice!

since you all are immortal through re-incarnation! are you not continuously being reborn in different bodies?

wa salam

[------]

:salamext:

Originally Posted by ranma1/2
I think that death is a natural part of existence. To my knowledge nothing living (and perhaps nonliving) stays in one form forever.

Doesn't that go to show that things have a purpose in life then?

[jd7]

PurestAmbrosia, I vote for option #2.

A couple of options I think might have proven interesting:

If you have an older spouse would you want them to take the treatment till you aged enough to catch up?

If you had a 25 year-old son or daughter with an illness that comes on in the 30’s or 40’s, such as scalar derma, an awful illness, or an illness such as cystic fibrosis another awful illness, would you advise them to take the treatment of it allowed them to avoid the illness?

Wondering how option #2 is morally any different than any other preventive medical treatment we already use today is?

[جوري]

PurestAmbrosia, I vote for option #2.

great choice...

A couple of options I think might have proven interesting:

If you have an older spouse would you want them to take the treatment till you aged enough to catch up?

Me personally? If I am attracted to an older individual enough to have them as a life partner, chances are it isn't/wasn't because of their looks... If you love someone you'll find them beautiful under any condition, would the age factor average into the equation? for me personally no. If you are going to live X number of yrs, you'll acquire the wisdom whether or not the yrs ravage your face so, why take a chance and have something along the way rob you of your mortality-- fact is we aren't guranteed tomorrow to be guarantted twenty, thirty yrs from now...

If you had a 25 year-old son or daughter with an illness that comes on in the 30’s or 40’s, such as scalar derma, an awful illness, or an illness such as cystic fibrosis another awful illness, would you advise them to take the treatment of it allowed them to avoid the illness?

many ppl with various ailments would jump all over this (if it were trut).. health is one of the greatest greatest gifts we have and never notice until a mal-function sets in, or are constantly in the mill of having a loved one suffer a debilitating chronic illness...
I think in fact regardless of the hypothetical of this thread, that, that is what scientests should be working toward, alleviating suffering and disease not chasing after asinine dreams, like cloning humans or a 'fountain of youth' they won't find it, and the first is a mere waste of resources that should be better channeled to areas present and needed today!

Wondering how option #2 is morally any different than any other preventive medical treatment we already use today is?

No medical treatment we have today can stop cell death, aging --natural or otherwise....I just fashioned it, in such a way that might to the reader appear plausible... we will not be able to bring to a halt the natural causes of aging, loss of lens accomdation, increase in chest ap diameter, loss of kidney function, slight emphysematous state in the lungs, weakness in bowels, slight hearing loss.. it is going to set in by a certain age whether or not we do stuff to help it.. the way we are good to our bodies or abusive merely makes the difference between normal physiological aging or pathological disease due to abuse.. can't stop death...

Death is truth like life is.. this was just to probe people's thoughts on life, mortality, different planes, different meadows, different reasons for being, but it remains largely in part a fiction that I made up..

thank you for your reply :D

cheers

[Woodrow]

PurestAmbrosia, I vote for option #2.

A couple of options I think might have proven interesting:

If you have an older spouse would you want them to take the treatment till you aged enough to catch up?

I think that would be a poor choice. In the marriages with a vast age difference, that age difference is one of the things that cause the marriage to work. For a successful marriage it is good to have similarities, but the differences are also a large part of what makes that particular couple successful at marriage. eliminate the differences and you risk destroying what caused it to work to begin with.

If you had a 25 year-old son or daughter with an illness that comes on in the 30’s or 40’s, such as scalar derma, an awful illness, or an illness such as cystic fibrosis another awful illness, would you advise them to take the treatment of it allowed them to avoid the illness?

this is difficult. my parental desires would be to go ahead and try it. But, at the same time, perhaps we are cheating the person by only prolonging them for a much worse fate. It is sort of like I was a kid. a lot of the diseases that are now eliminated where common and often fatal. The so called "Child hood diseases Mumps, Measles and chicken pox where usually just a 2 week nusience for kids, but it resulted in life long immunity. Those three diseases while minor for children were often fatal for adults. Parents of my generation would deliberatly expose children to them, for the benefit of immunity later. So, that was similar, sometimes a hardship can be a blessing because of what it prevents in the future. Here were the hypothisis is that the immortal people would be disease free. But, disease is not the only sickness that destroys us. What good would be given extra long life or immortality if the end result is going to be hellfire?

Wondering how option #2 is morally any different than any other preventive medical treatment we already use today is?

Just a question of degree. preventive medicine that prevents needless disease in a normal life span vs a lifespan for in excess of what should be expected. Interesting question and opening the door for for debate of ethical rights.

[ranma1/2]

hola,

no... my life does not belong to me. God has secured a birth and a death for me and He has uses for me beyond just this world. we should not fear His plans... that is why taking a bite from the tree of life is forbidden.

que Dios te bendiga

so how do you tell what is allowed and not? do you take medicine? things that increase your life and make you better? Do you get sick and say.. well its gods plan. Lets see what happens?

[ranma1/2]

:salamext:



Doesn't that go to show that things have a purpose in life then?

why should it? and purpose (meaning to life and such) seems to me to be personally defined.

[Jayda]

so how do you tell what is allowed and not? do you take medicine? things that increase your life and make you better? Do you get sick and say.. well its gods plan. Lets see what happens?

hola,

the Bible :)

Jesus specifically commanded us to heal the sick... that's why i became a nurse and hope to go back to medical school when my kids are grown. what the OP is asking about is a cure for 'death,' changing the fundamental nature of life from 'mortal' to 'immortal,' which is expressly forbidden in the bible.

que Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

I'm sort of on the fence with this.
I've got SO many things I want to do, places to go, things to see. Way more than I will probably ever get to do in my lifetime. So I think I'd live long enough just to finish all those things. Then I'd resume my mortality heh.

it is a tradeoff... to become truly immortal means you will have all the time you need (and then some) to explore every inch of this world... and others should you desire. you can investigate everything, but at the expense that you would never be able to leave it. while your friends and family would move on to the next, and begin that adventure, exploring there... you would remain behind, in your little prison only getting to explore the four walls around you. with all the time in the world those walls can become small very quickly...

i think it's wonderful that God has provided us with a world where our reach will always exceed our grasp :)

[x-samia-x]

No..

this world is a horrible place for believers :(

[Whatsthepoint]

It would be interesting to know if Darwin got it right...

[snakelegs]

No..

this world is a horrible place for believers :(

why? i understand the hereafter is regarded as the important thing, but don't you value the life god gave you?

[x-samia-x]

i value life of course i do... but the world is full of so much sin.

[snakelegs]

i value life of course i do... but the world is full of so much sin.

true, but there is also much beauty. but i see what you meant.

[jd7]

PurestAmbrosia” “Me personally? If I am attracted to an older individual enough to have them as a life partner, chances are it isn't/wasn't because of their looks... If you love someone you'll find them beautiful under any condition, would the age factor average into the equation? for me personally no. If you are going to live X number of yrs, you'll acquire the wisdom whether or not the yrs ravage your face so, why take a chance and have something along the way rob you of your mortality-- fact is we aren't guranteed tomorrow to be guaranteed twenty, thirty yrs from now...”

Just to make it clear, I was addressing the burying of a spouse or a child and what a person might do to avoid that.

[x-samia-x]

true, but there is also much beauty. but i see what you meant.

yeh, ther is a lot of beauty masha'Allah.. still some beauty being ruined :(

[جوري]

Just to make it clear, I was addressing the burying of a spouse or a child and what a person might do to avoid that.

In real life there is no avoidance as death is truly indiscriminate.. as pertains to the 'experiment' then I have no idea...

cheers

[al_islam]

yeh, ther is a lot of beauty masha'Allah.. still some beauty being ruined :(

err...wat beauty ?

[Grace Seeker]

Well, it sounds like this new "lease on life" is only good for 10 years at a time anyway. So, why not give it a shot? Especially if it can be done in a way that maintains my present health (you did say no more celluar aging), not just prolongs the final dying process. It sounds like I still have to avoid falling off ladders and stepping in front of trucks, so I still doubt I would live forever, you have no idea the trouble I can get myself in if given enough time. And I suppose I could take the injection every 20 years and double my lifespan by aging, but only every other decade. I've sort of had a wish for the last couple of years that I could live to 150 as there is so much more living I am interested in than I think I am likely to cram in if I can't extend it some. And just think how having a little more perspective might change some of the rash decisions made by our political leaders. Yeah, sign me up. As you said, I can always quit taking the shots later.

[snakelegs]

err...wat beauty ?

desert, animals, clouds, plants, mountains, ocean, insects, spider webs, the moon the list can go on forever....

[Qingu]

I voted "wait and see," almost out of instinct because I would doubt that there were no harmful side effects.

But thinking more about it, I'm inclined to agree with Grace Seeker.

I don't think I could get bored living so long as human society keeps going along with me. History is so fascinating, and I think our world is becoming more and more fascinating as time goes on and the ideas our species generates become more complicated and beautiful.

I sometimes think about how people from 500 years ago would view our earth today. Most people from the middle-ages would think our world is literally full of magic. Television and music that plays just in your ears from little tablets would be like sorcery. Maybe some people would be frightened, but I think I'd be amazed and curious.

I'm really eager to see what our world is going to look like 50, 100, and hopefully 1,000 years from now (assuming we don't blow ourselves up).

I'm also NOT looking forward to the pain and mental deterioration associated with the physical process of aging.

Honestly, my main concern with this concept of living forever would be the possibility that I would become corrupt with the power I would gain from immortality. I really believe that power almost inevitably corrupts, and living forever would give me power simply by the fact that I'd be able to accumulate so much more knowledge than other people. But if there were lots of other immortals, that wouldn't be such a big deal.

Just as long as I had the option to stop taking the pills and make myself mortal—you never know what's going to happen!

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum:

Definitely not! Imagine having to watch all your friends and family die? :cry:

Ok, I just realized I didn't read the first post properly. ooopppsssyyyy lol If I could take a shot every 10 years, hmmmm, ok, might try that for awhile, but only as long as I'm healthy and the family members aren't dropping off, because I couldn't deal with that.

Very interesting poll, sis!!

Wasalam,
Hana

[جوري]

desert, animals, clouds, plants, mountains, ocean, insects, spider webs, the moon the list can go on forever....

These are the blessings of the lord :D
can be summed perfectly in suret ar-rahman

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not my fav recitation, but translated :coolious:


peace!

[Ummu Sufyaan]

umm... i voted no..
id prefer to leave my existence as it is and as Allah intended it to be... Alhamdulilah
intresting topic tho

:sl:
i agree, and nicely said.
:sl:

[seattlemuslimah]

I voted no because i would much rather pass by this life and enter the hereafter in Jinnah. InshAllah

[snakelegs]

These are the blessings of the lord :D
can be summed perfectly in suret ar-rahman
not my fav recitation, but translated :coolious:
peace!

thanks! this is probably the thing i like the best in the qur'an - how god is constantly reminding you to reflect on things in nature as his signs. it is hard to deny god when you are surrounded by natural beauty.

[جوري]

I know what you mean, and it is part of the reason I agree with your point of view.. Life is beautiful, look at all these blessings, but I also look forward to what God promised his righteous servants.. so I voted
No who wants to live forever, partially because, It would be difficult to accumulate good deeds rather than bad ones living for so long, sort of like when you didn't prepare very well for an exam, and every time you ask for an extension you receive it but don't use the time wisely out of complacency and laxity. .. then you never feel ready, no matter what you do, all your 'deeds' are so scattered about that it doesn't hold its weight, and when the day finally comes for whatever reason not only is one filled with regret but keeps wishing for another extension. It is our mortality that both gives us and takes away from our happiness, it is the reminder, and it is the ticking of the clock. I don't think we can freeze time, and I don't think we can interfere with causality.. but somewhere deep inside we all wish for immortality by different laws and different standards one that is somehow earned... and we can't than conceive of that on this plane.

peace

[AntiKarateKid]

The prophet said that this world is like a prison for Muslims. I would witness war and suffering for sooo long that eventually I would envy the dead. Allah appointed a set time for us so that we appreciate the small duration of life we are given. In my opinion, an analogy could be made to having infinite money, you would stop appreciating it and waste it away.

[truemuslim]

i think- i know... no matter what people create these days... to try to make someone live longer.. allah has already written there day... who knows... they might invent something to make someone live forever, the people useing it might die the second they use it... might live longer than everyone else, or might die before....allahu alim... these are like those poeple trying to build a time machine....i heard

[truemuslim]

oh well.. go ahead and try to live forever... U WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO... judgement day? hellooo?? remmeber.... yea... plus most of the sighns of judgement day are present... so go ahead and try to live ....'forever'

:w:

[truemuslim]

No One Knows

[truemuslim]

rasulallah and the quraan have alot of signs that we now kno about when the judgement day is near... allah is the only one who knows... and we are about to know sometime.... maybe after we die, maybe the next second, minute, hour, day, week, year, century, generation, allah knows...

[جوري]

When IS judgment day?

It will happen when it happens, I wouldn't be too concerned!

cheers

[جوري]

This is one of the problems i see with religion. There's always a build up towards something, apocalypse or dying and transcending to heaven/paradise etc. If life is good on earth, why not stay awhile. I'd be all in favour of this kind of treatment.

Actually, it isn't the 'problem with religion' it is the problem with life.. Death is the anticlimax, and serves to give contrast to life... there is a buildup whether you choose to acknowledge it or jubilantly hop down the primrose path!
cheers

[جوري]

I've always loved primroses!

*skip* *skip* *skip*

cool..do skip and hop right out of here

cheers

[جوري]

I can't read english. Find me an arabic sign.

Don't worry once exodus happens for you, you won't even need to be literate!

cheers

[MaiCarInMtl]

I don't want to live forever because I wouldn't be able handle having all the people I love pass away and I still be here.

[Qingu]

I don't want to live forever because I wouldn't be able handle having all the people I love pass away and I still be here.

I don't think this is a good reason. Non-immortals have to deal with loved ones passing away all the time. It's very sad, but it doesn't make life less worth living, at least not in my opinion.

[north_malaysian]

I've voted yes ... and would maintain using it forever Inshallah!!

Why? Because it's a duty of a Muslim to preserve his/her body in the healthiest condition ever as it's given by Allah. If this product can give me the healthiest life ever... I'll go for it. Whether I live longer or not it's upon Allah to decide.

You can take this product for 1,000 times per day... but you still can die while crossing the road right?

My intention is to stay healthy... not to live forever.

[MaiCarInMtl]

I don't think this is a good reason. Non-immortals have to deal with loved ones passing away all the time. It's very sad, but it doesn't make life less worth living, at least not in my opinion.

In a regular lifespan, I find the average person deals enough with loved ones passing away. The prospect of seeing my spouse, children and grand-children die long before me is horrible and something I would not wish on anyone. I have seen the suffering people go through when they lose a child and would not want to see anyone go through this, much less willingly put myself through it. It's not in the natural order of things.

So I'm sorry if my answer isn't a good enough reason for you, but it's more than enough of a reason for me.

[Walter]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

I chose yes. The reason is that God prepared a body for us to live on this earth. This is where we belong. Unfortunately, our disobedience has resulted in a shortened lifespan.

Imagine if we could live functionally for 500 years. If we can learn so much in only 20 to 40 years, imagine if we had the time to study and practise, in depth, any subject. Limited time robs us of this opportunity. So does a packed schedule. I would therefore like to live on the earth as God had originally intended for over 1,000 years.

The Bible indicates that following our death, we will have a new body. For what purpose? Well, to live in the new earth that will be created. We are not designed or destined to live permanently in heaven, and there is no scriptural support for this teaching.

Regards,
Grenville

[Amat Allah]

Beautiful topic Aki fe Allah

I am %100 with my brother

Alpha Dude


jazakom Allah the paradise

[جوري]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:
We are not designed or destined to live permanently in heaven, and there is no scriptural support for this teaching.

Regards,
Grenville

Good to see you back..

I didn't know that there is no permanency in heaven, can you shed more light on that in accordance to the bible?

thanks

peace!

[Walter]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

I have been quite busy, and still am. The relevant portions of Revelation 20 and 21 are provided below. Rev 20 is there to provide the proper sequential context.

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21
1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.” 6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

So we have a new heaven. Why? Well the Bible notes that there was war in heaven with satan, so presumably there must have been some damage. We also have a new earth. Why? We have made a mess of it and will probably make a bigger mess with nuclear and persistent chemical weapons.

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

interesting..
so do you believe the heaven that Adam was expelled from, is the same one that people are to presumably go to after death? or after resurrection?

there is such a difference between Islamic views and christian views on this..

thanks for sharing

peace

[Grace Seeker]

interesting..
so do you believe the heaven that Adam was expelled from, is the same one that people are to presumably go to after death? or after resurrection?

there is such a difference between Islamic views and christian views on this..

thanks for sharing

peace

I think I am learning something here, a difference between Islamic and Christian views with regard to Adam that I was not aware existed before.

We view the the garden of Eden in which God placed Adam (and Eve) as having been on earth, not in heaven. Therefore, Adam was never expelled from heaven.

[جوري]

I think I am learning something here, a difference between Islamic and Christian views with regard to Adam that I was not aware existed before.

We view the the garden of Eden in which God placed Adam (and Eve) as having been on earth, not in heaven. Therefore, Adam was never expelled from heaven.

The garden from which they were expelled according to islam was neither on earth, nor the paradise promised to the righteous.. even (paradise) in and of itself has different levels.. we believe people have to earn their place and not all people are equal in that regard.
in other words and I am not judging someone like anna nicole smith, was constantly wearing the cross and speaking of baby Jesus but her other life was nothing short of a spectacle, I have had some christians argue that just because she accepted the covenant through jesus that all her sins would be forgiven and she received in heaven. I find it a bit odd.. I'd be a little vexed, how can someone who spends all their life in piety and chastity and dedication be equal to someone who (%^%&(^&%^%) through life?

either way judgement doesn't go through me, so even if someone is forgiven and Allah has assigned to himself the law of mercy, people wouldn't be going to the same heaven, someone who went to hell to be expiated from hell, will not be in the same abode of say David, or Solomon. although all the dwellers or paradise are free to visit each other, people usually go from the lower levels to the higher ones, not vice versa...

this makes sense to me, because I believe everyone earns their way through life and earns their way in the here after as well..

peace!

[Keltoi]

I think Purest Ambrosia's description of paradise shows an even stronger difference in Christian and Islamic views of Heaven. The Bible doesn't tell us the nature of Heaven, at least not in the way described by Purest. Of course there is Dante's description of Hell, but that isn't doctrinal or accepted as some form of divine revelation.

[Grace Seeker]

A discussion of the differing views of heaven (let alone entry to heaven) that exist might be an interesting thread in and of itself. We would probably even get some debate amongst the Christians because this is an area where I do not find the Bible to be entirely clear.

[جوري]

yup.. believe it or not Dante stole from Islamic literature about the layers of heaven and hell, only to end up putting Muslims and a mosque in hell.. I am surprised he wasn't sued for plagiarism and is instead acclaimed for his inferno!

cheers

[جوري]

ghiberti has attempted the 'gates of heaven' on san giovanni how do you feel about those? there was just an exhibit about it at the met, of course they didn't dismantle the actual thing but it was interesting.

in ghiberti' there were 10 in Islam there are many, one for instance is called 'Ar rayan'

"There is in Paradise a gate that is called ar-Rayyan, those who fasted will be summoned to it and whoever fasted will enter through it, and whoever enters it will never again experience thirst." [at-Tirmidhi and an-Nasa'i]

peace!

[The Ruler]

:sl:

Just a question... Would this 'Immortality' thing include a guarantee that no matter how many bullets you have in you [sort of like the guy in terminator], no matter how many times you're stabbed, you'll live?

If so, yah. I'd love to die yet again and again whilst striving in the path of Allah (swt).

Besides, there's always the curious thing of how far technology can go.

:w:

[جوري]

It was all a hypothetical, but sure why not throw in sponatnous tissue regeneration lol..

:w:

[Walter]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

Do you have a reference from the Qu’ran about Eden not being on Earth. 2:36, 7:24, and 20:123 do not explicitly indicate that the Garden was not on Earth. However, it does indicate that it was elevated, like on a plateau or ridge.

Regarding our eternal abode, I do not think that the Qu’ran teaches that believers will go to heaven, but rather, like the Bible teaches, they will be with God. 98 is instructive in this respect, short, and reproduced below for convenience.

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence,- An messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy: Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.

Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence. And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.

Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures. Their reward is with Allah: Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.

Gardens, rivers, and dwelling with God - this is strikingly similar to the Biblical “New earth” concept where God will dwell with men.

Regards,
Grenville

[جوري]

There isn't one specific verse I can give you, you have to read the Quran as a whole and try to decode some of it, let me for instance share some verses, even though you'll forgive me, it is not my greatest effort, perhaps a Muslim brother or sister can bring you more references etc..
in the following sura you can see that God asks Adam and his wife to descend from heaven to earth in the portion highlighted in red!

[Pickthal 7:19] And (unto man): O Adam! Dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden and eat from whence ye will, but come not nigh this tree lest ye become wrong-doers.

فَوَسْوَسَ لَهُمَا الشَّيْطَانُ لِيُبْدِيَ لَهُمَا مَا وُورِيَ عَنْهُمَا مِن سَوْءَاتِهِمَا وَقَالَ مَا نَهَاكُمَا رَبُّكُمَا عَنْ هَـذِهِ الشَّجَرَةِ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَا مَلَكَيْنِ أَوْ تَكُونَا مِنَ الْخَالِدِينَ {20}

[Pickthal 7:20] Then Satan whispered to them that he might manifest unto them that which was hidden from them of their shame, and he said: Your Lord forbade you from this tree only lest ye should become angels or become of the immortals.

وَقَاسَمَهُمَا إِنِّي لَكُمَا لَمِنَ النَّاصِحِينَ {21}

[Pickthal 7:21] And he swore unto them (saying): Lo! I am a sincere adviser unto you.

فَدَلاَّهُمَا بِغُرُورٍ فَلَمَّا ذَاقَا الشَّجَرَةَ بَدَتْ لَهُمَا سَوْءَاتُهُمَا وَطَفِقَا يَخْصِفَانِ عَلَيْهِمَا مِن وَرَقِ الْجَنَّةِ وَنَادَاهُمَا رَبُّهُمَا أَلَمْ أَنْهَكُمَا عَن تِلْكُمَا الشَّجَرَةِ وَأَقُل لَّكُمَا إِنَّ الشَّيْطَآنَ لَكُمَا عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ {22}

[Pickthal 7:22] Thus did he lead them on with guile. And when they tasted of the tree their shame was manifest to them and they began to hide (by heaping) on themselves some of the leaves of the Garden. And their Lord called them, (saying): Did I not forbid you from that tree and tell you: Lo! Satan is an open enemy to you?

قَالاَ رَبَّنَا ظَلَمْنَا أَنفُسَنَا وَإِن لَّمْ تَغْفِرْ لَنَا وَتَرْحَمْنَا لَنَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ {23}

[Pickthal 7:23] They said: Our Lord! We have wronged ourselves. If thou forgive us not and have not mercy on us, surely we are of the lost!

قَالَ اهْبِطُواْ بَعْضُكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ عَدُوٌّ وَلَكُمْ فِي الأَرْضِ مُسْتَقَرٌّ وَمَتَاعٌ إِلَى حِينٍ {24}

[Pickthal 7:24] He said: Go down (from hence), one of you a foe unto the other. There will be for you on earth a habitation and provision for a while.

قَالَ فِيهَا تَحْيَوْنَ وَفِيهَا تَمُوتُونَ وَمِنْهَا تُخْرَجُونَ {25}
[Pickthal 7:25] He said: There shall ye live, and there shall ye die, and thence shall ye be brought forth.

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ قَدْ أَنزَلْنَا عَلَيْكُمْ لِبَاسًا يُوَارِي سَوْءَاتِكُمْ وَرِيشًا وَلِبَاسُ التَّقْوَىَ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ ذَلِكَ مِنْ آيَاتِ اللّهِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَذَّكَّرُونَ {26}
[Pickthal 7:26] O Children of Adam! We have revealed unto you raiment to conceal your shame, and splendid vesture, but the raiment of restraint from evil, that is best. This is of the revelations of Allah, that they may remember.

يَا بَنِي آدَمَ لاَ يَفْتِنَنَّكُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ كَمَا أَخْرَجَ أَبَوَيْكُم مِّنَ الْجَنَّةِ يَنزِعُ عَنْهُمَا لِبَاسَهُمَا لِيُرِيَهُمَا سَوْءَاتِهِمَا إِنَّهُ يَرَاكُمْ هُوَ وَقَبِيلُهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ تَرَوْنَهُمْ إِنَّا جَعَلْنَا الشَّيَاطِينَ أَوْلِيَاء لِلَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ {27}

[Pickthal 7:27] O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that he might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.

وَإِذَا فَعَلُواْ فَاحِشَةً قَالُواْ وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهَا آبَاءنَا وَاللّهُ أَمَرَنَا بِهَا قُلْ إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَأْمُرُ بِالْفَحْشَاء أَتَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ {28}

[Pickthal 7:28] And when they do some lewdness they say: We found our fathers doing it and Allah hath enjoined it on us. Say: Allah, verily, enjoineth not lewdness. Tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not?

here is another verse

35. And We said: "O Adam! Dwell you and your wife in the Paradise and eat both of you freely with pleasure and delight, of things therein wherever you will, but come not near this tree or you both will be of the Zalimin (wrongdoers). '') (36. Then the Shaytan made them slip therefrom (the Paradise), and got them out from that in which they were. We said: "Get you down, all, with enmity between yourselves. On earth will be a dwelling place for you and an enjoyment for a time.'')

heaven also equals sky, as far as I know when you look up that is the lowest heaven, very different from paradise..

Anyhow many changes will happen toward the end, the very earth will change, heaven will change
there are many suras that describe the process, and I don't have the Quran memorized nor am I looking at a book for a compendium so I am going to just quote the suras I know that pertain quickly

[Pickthal 78:17] Lo! the Day of Decision is a fixed time,

يَوْمَ يُنفَخُ فِي الصُّورِ فَتَأْتُونَ أَفْوَاجًا {18}
[Pickthal 78:18] A day when the trumpet is blown and ye come in multitudes,

وَفُتِحَتِ السَّمَاء فَكَانَتْ أَبْوَابًا {19}
[Pickthal 78:19] And the heaven is opened and becometh as gates,

وَسُيِّرَتِ الْجِبَالُ فَكَانَتْ سَرَابًا {20}
[Pickthal 78:20] And the hills are set in motion and become as a mirage.

there is also

يَوْمَ تُبَدَّلُ الأَرْضُ غَيْرَ الأَرْضِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ وَبَرَزُواْ للّهِ الْوَاحِدِ الْقَهَّارِ {48}
[Pickthal 14:48] On the day when the earth will be changed to other than the earth, and the heavens (also will be changed) and they will come forth unto Allah, the One, the Almighty,

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا زُلْزِلَتِ الْأَرْضُ زِلْزَالَهَا {1}
[Pickthal 99:1] When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake

وَأَخْرَجَتِ الْأَرْضُ أَثْقَالَهَا {2}
[Pickthal 99:2] And Earth yieldeth up her burdens,

وَقَالَ الْإِنسَانُ مَا لَهَا {3}
[Pickthal 99:3] And man saith: What aileth her?

يَوْمَئِذٍ تُحَدِّثُ أَخْبَارَهَا {4}
[Pickthal 99:4] That day she will relate her chronicles,

بِأَنَّ رَبَّكَ أَوْحَى لَهَا {5}
[Pickthal 99:5] Because thy Lord inspireth her.

يَوْمَئِذٍ يَصْدُرُ النَّاسُ أَشْتَاتًا لِّيُرَوْا أَعْمَالَهُمْ {6}
[Pickthal 99:6] That day mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds.

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَرَهُ {7}
[Pickthal 99:7] And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَرَهُ {8}
[Pickthal 99:8] And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.

and

بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
إِذَا السَّمَاء انشَقَّتْ {1}
[Pickthal 84:1] When the heaven is split asunder

وَأَذِنَتْ لِرَبِّهَا وَحُقَّتْ {2}
[Pickthal 84:2] And attentive to her Lord in fear,

وَإِذَا الْأَرْضُ مُدَّتْ {3}
[Pickthal 84:3] And when the earth is spread out

وَأَلْقَتْ مَا فِيهَا وَتَخَلَّتْ {4}
[Pickthal 84:4] And hath cast out all that was in her, and is empty

وَأَذِنَتْ لِرَبِّهَا وَحُقَّتْ {5}
[Pickthal 84:5] And attentive to her Lord in fear!

يَا أَيُّهَا الْإِنسَانُ إِنَّكَ كَادِحٌ إِلَى رَبِّكَ كَدْحًا فَمُلَاقِيهِ {6}
[Pickthal 84:6] Thou, verily, O man, art working toward thy Lord a work which thou wilt meet (in His presence).

فَأَمَّا مَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ بِيَمِينِهِ {7}
[Pickthal 84:7] Then whoso is given his account in his right hand

فَسَوْفَ يُحَاسَبُ حِسَابًا يَسِيرًا {8}
[Pickthal 84:8] He truly will receive an easy reckoning

وَيَنقَلِبُ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ مَسْرُورًا {9}
[Pickthal 84:9] And will return unto his folk in joy.

وَأَمَّا مَنْ أُوتِيَ كِتَابَهُ وَرَاء ظَهْرِهِ {10}
[Pickthal 84:10] But whoso is given his account behind his back,

فَسَوْفَ يَدْعُو ثُبُورًا {11}
[Pickthal 84:11] He surely will invoke destruction

وَيَصْلَى سَعِيرًا {12}
[Pickthal 84:12] And be thrown to scorching fire.

إِنَّهُ كَانَ فِي أَهْلِهِ مَسْرُورًا {13}
[Pickthal 84:13] He verily lived joyous with his folk,

إِنَّهُ ظَنَّ أَن لَّن يَحُورَ {14}
[Pickthal 84:14] He verily deemed that he would never return (unto Allah).

بَلَى إِنَّ رَبَّهُ كَانَ بِهِ بَصِيرًا {15}
[Pickthal 84:15] Nay, but lo! his Lord is ever looking on him!

فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالشَّفَقِ {16}
[Pickthal 84:16] Oh, I swear by the afterglow of sunset,

وَاللَّيْلِ وَمَا وَسَقَ {17}
[Pickthal 84:17] And by the night and all that it enshroudeth,

وَالْقَمَرِ إِذَا اتَّسَقَ {18}
[Pickthal 84:18] And by the moon when she is at the full,

لَتَرْكَبُنَّ طَبَقًا عَن طَبَقٍ {19}
[Pickthal 84:19] That ye shall journey on from plane to plane.

فَمَا لَهُمْ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ {20}
[Pickthal 84:20] What aileth them, then, that they believe not

وَإِذَا قُرِئَ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقُرْآنُ لَا يَسْجُدُونَ {21}
[Pickthal 84:21] And, when the Qur'an is recited unto them, worship not (Allah)?

بَلِ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ يُكَذِّبُونَ {22}
[Pickthal 84:22] Nay, but those who disbelieve will deny;

وَاللَّهُ أَعْلَمُ بِمَا يُوعُونَ {23}
[Pickthal 84:23] And Allah knoweth best what they are hiding.

فَبَشِّرْهُم بِعَذَابٍ أَلِيمٍ {24}
[Pickthal 84:24] So give them tidings of a painful doom,

إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّالِحَاتِ لَهُمْ أَجْرٌ غَيْرُ مَمْنُونٍ {25}
[Pickthal 84:25] Save those who believe

you basically have to go through the Quran in its entirety and see a clue on how the event will happen in every sura, Now I know many scholars have dedicated books to just such a purpose and if a brother or sister has a book on the beginning and the end then please link it here.. but it is easy for me to see that in the beginning Adam and his wife were asked to descend, and in the end the earth and heaven will change and we'll be brought before God in three groups see this sura about who the three groups are

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.. the days of judgement will take a very long time..
I wonder if this was of help to you? or if you have any more specific questions?

peace

[Grace Seeker]

So, if I understand the Islamic view, as a result of one man's sin all men were cast out of paradise. Is this correct?

[جوري]

'original sin' is a christian point of view only...

لاَ يُكَلِّفُ اللّهُ نَفْسًا إِلاَّ وُسْعَهَا لَهَا مَا كَسَبَتْ وَعَلَيْهَا مَا اكْتَسَبَتْ رَبَّنَا لاَ تُؤَاخِذْنَا إِن نَّسِينَا أَوْ أَخْطَأْنَا رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تَحْمِلْ عَلَيْنَا إِصْرًا كَمَا حَمَلْتَهُ عَلَى الَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِنَا رَبَّنَا وَلاَ تُحَمِّلْنَا مَا لاَ طَاقَةَ لَنَا بِهِ وَاعْفُ عَنَّا وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا وَارْحَمْنَا أَنتَ مَوْلاَنَا فَانصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ {286}

[Pickthal 2:286] Allah tasketh not a soul beyond its scope. For it (is only) that which it hath earned, and against it (only) that which it hath deserved. Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget, or miss the mark! Our Lord! Lay not on us such a burden as thou didst lay on those before us! Our Lord! Impose not on us that which we have not the strength to bear! Pardon us, absolve us and have mercy on us, Thou, our Protector, and give


there are other verses that speak of from no man's sin will one be punished or from his goodness will another be rewarded.. will try to find specific verse later


peace

[Grace Seeker]

I didn't ask about "original sin". I'm quite aware that Muslims don't believe in it. That's a construct of Christian theology that I am not presently interested in.

I was only asking about Adam's sin and its consequences. If I read the text correctly. Prior to Adam's sin he lived in Paradise. And because of his sin he was kicked out of Paradise. Thus all the children he had were born outside of Paradise. And apparently they were either not allowed or not able or didn't desire to move back to Paradise, even though they had not sinned, because all of us are also born outside of Paradise.

It's a simple Yes/No question: Am I reading the story correctly?

[جوري]

I didn't ask about "original sin". I'm quite aware that Muslims don't believe in it. That's a construct of Christian theology that I am not presently interested in.

I was only asking about Adam's sin and its consequences. If I read the text correctly. Prior to Adam's sin he lived in Paradise. And because of his sin he was kicked out of Paradise. Thus all the children he had were born outside of Paradise. And apparently they were either not allowed or not able or didn't desire to move back to Paradise, even though they had not sinned, because all of us are also born outside of Paradise.

It's a simple Yes/No question: Am I reading the story correctly?

he was expelled from heaven not paradise.. and yes had he not sinned we'd have all been born in heaven, but we are not paying for his sins by being here on earth.


peace

[Grace Seeker]

he was expelled from heaven not paradise.. and yes had he not sinned we'd have all been born in heaven, but we are not paying for his sins by being here on earth.


peace

Right. Not paying for his sins. That is what I was trying to say in the thread that does ask about "original sin". But it does seem as if we are all still living with the consequences of that sin because we don't have the opportunity to be born in heaven, which, as you said, we would have been if Adam had not sinned. Would you hold that to be a true statement?

[جوري]

Right. Not paying for his sins. That is what I was trying to say in the thread that does ask about "original sin". But it does seem as if we are all still living with the consequences of that sin because we don't have the opportunity to be born in heaven, which, as you said, we would have been if Adam had not sinned. Would you hold that to be a true statement?

Yup, that is pretty accurate-- although I think the consequence is working out in our favor.. that is, should we choose the road to earn our way to a better home!

peace!

[Walter]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

Thank you for the information. From the evidence, it appears that the Garden can be interpreted to be on an elevated part on Earth, like a ridge or plateau. However, I do not want to negatively impact your thread with this slightly off-topic argument.

The Biblical book of Genesis teaches that before the flood, normally referred to as Noah’s flood, people lived for hundreds of years and accomplished much. If we could go from riding horses in 1900 to space travel in 1966, imagine what we could do if we could live for 1,000 years.

I must say that I am surprised by the number of poll respondents who indicated a desire not to live longer. Jesus taught that we should not squander our resources by being unproductive. We should also not squander opportunities of doing good and helping others. There are so many opportunities for behaving properly on Earth, why on Earth (pardon the pun) would anyone wish to simply die, leaving all of their responsibilities uncompleted.

I trust the applicable respondents will reconsider.

Regards,
Grenville

[Grace Seeker]

Yup, that is pretty accurate-- although I think the consequence is working out in our favor.. that is, should we choose the road to earn our way to a better home!

peace!

Sorry, to spend so much time on this aside from your thread. Are you suggesting that admission to Paradise after life on earth is to be preferred to having been born in heaven to begin with?

[جوري]

Sorry, to spend so much time on this aside from your thread. Are you suggesting that admission to Paradise after life on earth is to be preferred to having been born in heaven to begin with?

yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting..
Do you think it is better to be born rich or to have attained it through hard work and dedication?


peace!

[جوري]

Hi Purest Ambrosia:

Thank you for the information. From the evidence, it appears that the Garden can be interpreted to be on an elevated part on Earth, like a ridge or plateau. However, I do not want to negatively impact your thread with this slightly off-topic argument.

The Biblical book of Genesis teaches that before the flood, normally referred to as Noah’s flood, people lived for hundreds of years and accomplished much. If we could go from riding horses in 1900 to space travel in 1966, imagine what we could do if we could live for 1,000 years.

I must say that I am surprised by the number of poll respondents who indicated a desire not to live longer. Jesus taught that we should not squander our resources by being unproductive. We should also not squander opportunities of doing good and helping others. There are so many opportunities for behaving properly on Earth, why on Earth (pardon the pun) would anyone wish to simply die, leaving all of their responsibilities uncompleted.

I trust the applicable respondents will reconsider.

Regards,
Grenville

I can't be certain where it was, but do know that heaven and paradise are two different things, also heaven will not have any evil in it or temptation. I can't describe paradise short of the few things we were told of it, as our mind in this physical world cannot conceive that which we can't contrast to something else.

Certainly we are told through many ahadith that, the best of us are those with long lives and accumulate good deeds, we are also asked not to wish for death.. and we are also told that all who die carry regret, if they were good and finally the truth is revealed, they wish they had tried harder to have earned even better, and those who were wicked know that it is too late and that they had chased illusions.
And I also agree that life expectancy has changed over the ages, but we must return to our lord.. this world was described by prophet Mohammed (SAW) as a tree in which the traveler sojourned and enjoyed its shade, but that unto our lord is the journeying and we must take provisions for our trip!


under any circumstance, this thread was a mere hypothetical where I have gained much insight to people's philosophies and approach to life, and wish to thank you all for time and courtesy extended


peace

[Grace Seeker]

yes, that is exactly what I am suggesting..
Do you think it is better to be born rich or to have attained it through hard work and dedication?


peace!

My own view is that those who were created to belong in heaven would have been better off to have never left heaven. My other view is that once we have lost heaven that it is not something we can reclaim as if it is something owed to us as a reward for any amount of hard work and dedication. Heaven is only obtainable as a gift. Gifts are never things that we earn, they come to us out of the largesse of another. That which we receive because we have earned it is called a wage. Wages are something that are owed to you. I don't think we can ever approach God and tell him that we've earned heaven and he owes it to us. And I don't think you are really suggesting that. So, my guess is that you may want to reconsider some of your terminology as I don't think your terminology actually fits what I understand to be your theology with regard to how one achieves heaven, which I've always understood you to say was by the grace of Allah.

[جوري]

My own view is that those who were created to belong in heaven would have been better off to have never left heaven.

& my view is if we had never left heaven, we'd never attain paradise!

My other view is that once we have lost heaven that it is not something we can reclaim as if it is something owed to us as a reward for any amount of hard work and dedication.

No heaven isn't owed us!

Heaven is only obtainable as a gift.

I disagree with that.. we have gifts here on earth countless--why should we be owed a better abode a gift as well?

Gifts are never things that we earn, they come to us out of the largesse of another.

that would be true, if I were to accept the first part of your sentence as true, it begs the question.. it is based on an a priori judgment!

That which we receive because we have earned it is called a wage. Wages are something that are owed to you.

sometimes owed to you, sometimes you get a bonus and a few perks, if your boss is kind?

I don't think we can ever approach God and tell him that we've earned heaven and he owes it to us.

No we can't

And I don't think you are really suggesting that.

I am not!

So, my guess is that you may want to reconsider some of your terminology as I don't think your terminology actually fits what I understand to be your theology with regard to how one achieves heaven, which I've always understood you to say was by the grace of Allah.

That is true, but it is true too that one can't equate one who spends his day in worship and worship takes on many different forms, even hard work can be a form of worship to equate with someone who is a polar opposite..
ultimately we all attain paradise through God's mercy, but that doesn't change the fact that there is gradation in heaven and people earn their level..
God isn't unkind to his servants, I don't believe that God belongs only to the Israelites, nor does he forgive all only through accepting the blood of his son, I believe there are good people and bad people, I believe even Muslims will go to hell to be expiated from their sins, if they were sinners and there is a place for them in hell called saqar. No one gets a carte blanche to heaven just because someone's spin on a free gift..because they were God's chosen, because they drank the blood of christ or because they were Muslim.. that is nonesense if you'll forgive my being so bold.. People get what they deserve, based on their heart, intent and what their hands have offered... I'll reference you to suret Qaf as basis to my argument here... and admittedly I am no scholar...


cheers

[جوري]

found a translated version.. it starts after Al fatiha.

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peace

[Grace Seeker]

Purest, this is a good and interesting discussion, or at least so I think, yet I fear we may be risking having your thread closed for being so off topic.

But it is your thread. Shall we continue? Start a new thread? Or move to PMs?

Also, I have a question from the recitation.

31 And the Garden will be brought nigh to the Righteous,- no more a thing distant.

32 (A voice will say:) "This is what was promised for you,- for every one who turned (to Allah) in sincere repentance, who kept (His Law),

33 "Who feared (Allah) Most Gracious Unseen, and brought a heart turned in devotion (to Him):

34 "Enter ye therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life!"

35 There will be for them therein all that they wish,- and more besides in Our Presence.

So, is this Garden in heaven or paradise? Are they one and the same, or are they different places?

7:40, "Surely (as for) those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily, the doors of heaven shall not be opened for them, nor shall they enter the garden until the camel pass through the eye of the needle; and thus do We reward the guilty.", leads me to think that heaven and the garden are one and the same.

But several other passages that include this line, "Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods..." make me think that heaven is not something that is eternal, not something that has always been.

Perhaps the Qur'an using the term "heaven" in two different ways? In some instances it refers to the abode of God and on others it refers to the created sky above us. This would be in line with the term "earth" sometimes referring to the entire planet and sometimes to the dirt below our feet.

But I await your assistance with these interpretations.

[جوري]

Purest, this is a good and interesting discussion, or at least so I think, yet I fear we may be risking having your thread closed for being so off topic.

Your intent is good, you enjoy philosophy and theology as much as I do, and I know you not to have an ulterior motive short of theological growth so to speak, :p I see no reason the topic should be closed or moved? I find that the topics that are closed or moved or split usually do so because of one of several legitmate reasons, no point in listing them all here.

But it is your thread. Shall we continue? Start a new thread? Or move to PMs?

we continue, it is a free discussion based on a hypothetical. thus we should bare that in mind whatever route we take..

Also, I have a question from the recitation.


So, is this Garden in heaven or paradise? Are they one and the same, or are they different places?

here is the thing about translation.. just today I discovered a good source..I recommend you use this version
http://www.amazon.com/Message-Quran-...0016264&sr=8-1

5 star rating based on 42 reviews-- I'll give you my opinion as a native Arabic speaker.. the word 'Janna' often used to denote paradise or garden also dervied from Jinn or jinoon, literally means (that which is hidden from sight).. no one uses that interpretation obviousely because Janna is taken to denote paradise.. thus I can't explain to you the nature of 'that which is hidden from sight' how could I?

7:40, "Surely (as for) those who reject Our communications and turn away from them haughtily, the doors of heaven shall not be opened for them, nor shall they enter the garden until the camel pass through the eye of the needle; and thus do We reward the guilty.", leads me to think that heaven and the garden are one and the same.

gardens of heaven have been described in several verses through out the Quran, I can't attempt to place them for you in a particular abode, anymore than I can tell you the location of tasneem or Al kawthar..
Again it is just a matter of whom is doing the translation, it is not nearly as bewildering as all that in original semitic tongue!

But several other passages that include this line, "Surely your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods..." make me think that heaven is not something that is eternal, not something that has always been.

Heaven here is denoted to mean sky 'samawat' means skies and we certainly concede that the sky we see above us is the lowest heaven.. actually I'd hate to send you searching in all of the Quran.. no who am I kidding I love it :coolious: but I believe suret an'najm will have your answer as to what belongs where, I might just find a translated version and stick it here as well :shade:

Perhaps the Qur'an using the term "heaven" in two different ways? In some instances it refers to the abode of God and on others it refers to the created sky above us. This would be in line with the term "earth" sometimes referring to the entire planet and sometimes to the dirt below our feet.

But I await your assistance with these interpretations.

'heavens' 'samawat' and Janna [(paradise--that which is hidden from sight)] are meant to denote different things.. now I am off to find you suret an najm!


peace

[جوري]

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it is already translated, but here is a commentary... but you can get an idea of the layers of heaven, where the throne is where paradise is.. etc

THE FIFTY-THIRD SURAH

AN-NAJM (THE UNFOLDING)

MECCA PERIOD

IT IS generally assumed that this is a comparatively early Meccan surah, revealed shortly after surah 112. However, some parts of it undoubtedly belong to a later period - especially verses 13-18, which allude to the Prophet’s mystic experience of an ascension to heaven (miraj), about one year before his exodus to Medina (see Appendix IV). The title - explained in note below - is taken from the word an-najm at the beginning of the first verse.

IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:

ANGEL OF REVELATION, GABRIEL

(1) CONSIDER this unfolding [of God’s message], as it comes down from on high! [Or: “Consider the star when it sets” - an interpretation which for some reason has the preference of the majority of the commentators. However, almost all of them admit that the term najm - derived from the verb najama, “it appeared”, “began”, “ensued”, or “proceeded” - denotes also the “unfolding” of something that comes or appears gradually, as if by installments. Hence, this term has from the very beginning been applied to each of the gradually-revealed parts (nujum) of the Quran and, thus, to the process of its gradual revelation, or its “unfolding”, as such. This was, in fact, the interpretation of the above verse given by Abd Allah ibn Abbas (as quoted by Tabari; in view of the sequence, this interpretation is regarded as fully justified by Raghib, Zamakhshari, Razi, Baydawi, Ibn Kathir and other authorities. Raghib and Ibn Kathir, in particular, point to the phrase mawaqi an-nujum in 56: 75, which undoubtedly refers to the step-by-step revelation of the Quran. As regards my rendering of the adjective particle wa as “Consider”, see note on 74: 32.] (2) This fellow-man of yours has not gone astray, nor is he deluded, [See note on 7: 184.] (3) and neither does he speak out of his own desire: (4) that [which he conveys to you] is but [a divine] inspiration with which he is being inspired - (5) something that a very mighty one* has imparted to him: [*I.e., the Angel of Revelation, Gabriel.] (6) [an angel] endowed with sur­passing power, who in time manifested himself in his true shape and nature, (7) appearing in the horizon’s loftiest part, [Cf. 81: 23 and the corresponding note. According to the Quran and the testimony of authentic Traditions, the Prophet had no more than twice in his lifetime a vision of this angelic force “manifested in its true shape and nature” (which, as pointed out by Zamakhshari, is the meaning of the expression istawa in this context): once after the period called fatrat al-wahy (see introductory note to surah 74), and another time, as alluded to in verses 13-18, in the course of his mystic vision known as the “Ascension” (see Appendix IV).] (8) and then drew near, and came close, (9) until he was but two bow-lengths away, or even nearer. [This graphic “description” of the angel’s approach, based on an ancient Arabian figure of speech, is meant to convey the idea that the Angel of Revelation became a clearly perceptible, almost tangible, presence.] (10) And thus did [God] reveal unto His servant whatever He deemed right to reveal. [Lit., “whatever He revealed”: an allusion to the exceptional manifestation of the angel “in his true shape and nature” as well as to the contents of divine revelation as such. In its deeper sense the above phrase implies that even to His chosen prophets God does not entirely unveil the ultimate mysteries of existence, of life and death, of the purpose for which He has created the universe, or of the nature of the universe itself.] (11) The [servant’s] heart did not give the lie to what he saw: [Inasmuch as the Prophet was fully aware of the spiritual character of his experience, there was no conflict between his conscious mind and his intuitive perception (the “vision of the heart”) of what is normally not perceptible.] (12) will you, then, contend with him as to what he saw? [Thus the Quran makes it clear that the Prophet’s vision of the angel was not a delusion but a true spiritual experience: but precisely because it was purely spiritual in nature, it could be conveyed to others only by means of symbols and allegories, which skeptics all too readily dismiss as fancies, “contending with him as to what he saw”.] (13) And, indeed, he saw him* a second time [I.e., he saw the angel “manifested in his true shape and nature”.] (14) by the lote-tree of the farthest limit, [I.e., on the occasion of his mystic experience of the “Ascension” (miraj). Explaining the vision conveyed in the expression sidrat al-muntaha, Raghib suggests that owing to the abundance of its leafy shade, the sidr or sidrah (the Arabian lote-tree) appears in the Quran as well as in the Traditions relating to the Ascension as a symbol of the “shade” - i.e., the spiritual peace and fulfillment - of paradise. One may assume that the qualifying term al-muntaha (“of the utmost [or “farthest”] limit”) is indicative of the fact that God has set a definite limit to all knowledge accessible to created beings, as pointed out in the Nihayah: implying, in particular, that human knowledge, though potentially vast and penetrating, can never - not even in paradise (the “garden of promise” mentioned in the next verse) - attain to an understanding of the ultimate reality, which the Creator has reserved for Himself (cf. note on verse 10 above).] (15) near unto the garden of promise. (16) with the lote-tree veiled in a veil of nameless splendour…. [Lit., “when the lote-tree was veiled with whatever veiled [it]”: a phrase deliberately vague (mubham), indicative of the inconceivable majesty and splendour attaching to this symbol of paradise “which no description can picture and no definition can embrace” (Zamakhshari).] (17) [And withal,] the eye did not waver, nor yet did it stray: (18) truly did he see some of the most profound of his Sustainer’s symbols. [Lit., “[some] of the greatest of his Sustainer’s symbols (ayat)”. For this specific rendering of the term ayah, see note on 17: 1, which refers to the same mystic experience, namely, the Ascension. In both these Quranic allusions the Prophet is said to have been “made to see” (i.e., given to understand) some, but not all, of the ultimate truths (cf. also 7: 187-188); and this, too, serves to explain the idea expressed in verse 10 above.]

THREE GODDESSES

(19) HAVE YOU, then, ever considered [what you are worshipping in] Al-Lat and Al-Uzza, (20) as well as [in] Manat, the third and last [of this triad]? [After pointing out that the Prophet was granted true insight into some of the most profound verities, the Quran draws our attention to the “false symbols” which men so often choose to invest with divine qualities or powers: in this instance - by way of example - to the blasphemous imagery of the Propheet’s pagan contemporaries epitomized in the triad of Al-Lat, Manat and Al-Uzza. These three goddesses - regarded by the pagan Arabs as “God’s daughters” side by side with the angels (who, too, were conceived of as females) - were worshipped in most of pre-Islamic Arabia, and had several shrines in the Hijaz and in Najd. The worship of Al-Lat was particularly ancient and almost certainly of South-Arabian origin; she may have been the prototype of the Greek semi-goddess Leto, one of the wives of Zeus and mother of Apollo and Artemis.] (21) Why - for yourselves [you would choose only] male offspring, whereas to Him [you assign] female: [In view of the contempt which the pagan Arabs felt for their female offspring (cf. 16: 57-59 and 62, as well as the corresponding notes), their attribution of “daughters” to God was particularly absurd and self-contradictory: for, quite apart from the blasphemous belief in God’s having “offspring” of any kind, their ascribing to Him what they themselves despised gave the lie to their alleged “reverence for Him whom they, too, regarded as the Supreme Being - a point which is stressed with irony in the next sentence.] (22) that, lo and behold, is an unfair division! (23) These [allegedly divine beings] are nothing but empty names which you have invented - you and your forefathers - [and] for which God has bestowed no warrant from on high. [Cf. 12: 40.] They [who worship them] follow nothing but surmise and their own wishful thinking - although right guidance has now indeed come unto them from their Sustainer. [An allusion to the pagan idea that those goddesses, as well as the angels, would act as “mediators” between their worshippers and God: a wishful idea which lingers on even among adherents of higher religions in the guise of a veneration of saints and deified persons.] (24) Does man imagine that it is his due to have [Lit., “Is it for man to have…”, etc.] all that he might wish for, (25) despite the fact that [both] the life to come and this present [one] belong to God [alone]? [I.e., despite the fact (which is the meaning of the particle fa in this context) that God is omnipotent and omniscient and does not, therefore, require any “mediator” between Himself and His creatures.]

ANGELS AS MEDIATORS

(26) For, however many angels there be in the heavens, their intercession can be of no least avail [to anyone] - except after God has given leave [to inter­cede] for whomever He wills and with whom He is well-pleased. [For an explanation of the Quranic concept of “intercession”, see note on 10: 3, as well as notes on 10: 18.] (27) Behold, it is [only] such as do not [really] believe in the life to come that regard the angels as female beings; [Lit., “that name the angels with a female name” - i.e., think of them as being endowed with sex and/or as being “God’s daughters”. As the Quran points out in many places, the people spoken of in this context do believe in life after death, inasmuch as they express the hope that the angels and the imaginary deities which they worship will “mediate” between them and God, and will “intercede” for them. However, their belief is far too vague to make them realize that the quality of man’s life in the hereafter does not depend on such outside factors but is causally, and directly, connected with the manner of his life in this world: and so the Quran declares that their attitude is, for all practical purposes, not much different from the attitude of people who reject the idea of a hereafter altogether.] (28) and [since] they have no knowledge whatever thereof,* they follow nothing but surmise: yet, behold, never can surmise take the place of truth. [*Namely, of the real nature and function of the category of beings spoken of in the Quran as angels, inasmuch as they belong to the realm of al-ghayb, “that which is beyond the reach of human perception”. Alternatively, the pronoun in bihi may relate to God, in which case the phrase could be rendered as “they have no knowledge whatever of Him” - implying that both the attribution of “progeny” to Him and the belief that His judgment depends on, or could be influenced by, “mediation” or “intercession” is the result of an anthropomorphic concept of God and, therefore, far removed from the truth.]

GOOD, EVIL AND FORGIVENESS

(29) Avoid thou, therefore, those who turn away from all remembrance of Us and care for no more than the life of this world, (30) which, to them, is the only thing worth knowing. [Lit., “that is their sum-total [or “goal”] of knowledge”.] Behold, thy Sustainer is fully aware as to who has strayed from His path, and fully aware is He as to who follows His guidance. (31) Indeed, unto God belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth: and so He will reward those who do evil in accordance with what they did, and will reward those who do good with ultimate good. [I.e., whereas good deeds will be rewarded with far more than their merits may warrant, evil will be recompensed with no more than its equivalent (cf. 6: 160); and either will be decided by the Almighty without the need of “mediation” or “intercession”.] (32) As for those who avoid the [truly] grave sins and shameful deeds - even though they may some­times stumble [Lit., “save for a touch [thereof]”: a phrase which may be taken to mean “an occasional stumbling into sin” - i.e., not deliberately - followed by sincere repentance (Baghawi, Razi, Ibn Kathir).] - behold, thy Sustainer is abounding in forgiveness. He is fully aware of you [Sc., “and of your inborn weakness” - an implied echo of the statement that “man has been created weak” (4: 28) and, therefore, liable to stumble into sinning.] when He brings you into being out of dust, [Lit., “out of the earth”: see second half of note on 3: 59, as well as note on 23: 12.] and when you are still hidden in your mothers’ wombs: do not, then, consider your­selves pure - [for] He knows best as to who is conscious of Him. [I.e., “never boast about your own purity”, but remain humble and remember that “it is God who causes whomever He wills to remain pure” (4: 49).]

MAN IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ITS OWN ACTIONS

(33) HAST THOU, then, ever considered him who turns away [from remembering Us, and cares for no more than the life of this world], (34) and gives so little [of himself for the good of his soul], and so grudgingly? [My rendering of the above two verses (together with the two interpolations between brackets) is based on Razi’s convincing interpretation of this passage as a return to the theme touched upon in verses 29-30.] (35) Does he [claim to] have knowledge of some­thing that is beyond the reach of human perception, so that he can see [it clearly]? [I.e., “How can he be so sure that there is no life in the hereafter, and no judgment?”] (36) Or has he never yet been told of what was [said] in the revelations of Moses, (37) and of Abra­ham, who to his trust was true: [Cf. 2: 124 and the corresponding note. It is obvious that the names of Abraham and Moses are cited here only by way of example, drawing attention to the fact that all through human history God has entrusted His elect, the prophets, with the task of conveying certain unchangeable ethical truths to man.] (38) that no bearer of burdens shall be made to bear another’s burden; [This basic ethical law appears in the Quran five times - in 6: 164, 17: 15, 35: 18, 39: 7, as well as in the above instance, which is the oldest in the chronology of revelation. Its implication is threefold: firstly, it expresses a categorical rejection of the Christian doctrine of the “original sin” with which every human being is allegedly burdened from birth; secondly, it refutes the idea that a person’s sins could be “atoned for” by a saint’s or a prophet’s redemptive sacrifice (as evidenced, for instance, in the Christian doctrine of Jesus’ vicarious atonement for mankind’s sinfulness, or in the earlier, Persian doctrine of man’s vicarious redemption by Mithras); and, thirdly, it denies, by implication, the possibility of any “mediation” between the sinner and God.] (39) and that nought shall be accounted unto man but what he is striving for; [Cf. the basic, extremely well-authenticated saying of the Prophet, “Actions will be [judged] only according to the conscious intentions [which prompted them]; and unto everyone will be accounted only what he consciously intended”, i.e., while doing whatever he did. This Tradition is quoted by Bukhari in seven places - the first one as a kind of introduction to his Sahih - as well as by Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Daud, Nasai (in four places), Ibn Majah, Ibn Hanbal, and several other compilations. In this connection it is to be noted that in the ethics of the Quran, the term “action” (amaI) comprises also a deliberate omission of actions, whether good or bad, as well as a deliberate voicing of beliefs, both righteous and sinful: in short, everything that man consciously aims at and expresses by word or deed.] (40) and that in time [the nature of] all his striving will be shown [to him in its true light], [Lit., “his striving will be seen”, i.e., on the Day of Judgment, when - as the Quran states in many places - God “will make you [truly] understand all that you were doing [in life]”.] (41) where­upon he shall be requited for it with the fullest requital;

GOD’S OMNIPOTENCE

(42) and that with thy Sustainer is the beginning and the end [of all that exists]; [Lit., “the utmost limit” or “goal”, circumscribing the beginning and the end of the universe both in time and in space, as well as the source from which everything proceeds and to which everything must return.] (43) and that it is He alone who causes [you] to laugh and to weep; (44) and that it is He alone who deals death and grants life; (45) and that it is He who creates the two kinds - the male and the female - (46) out of a [mere] drop of sperm as it is poured forth, (47) and that [therefore] it is within His power to bring about a second life; [Lit., “that upon Him rests the other [or “second”] coming to life (nashah)”, i.e., resur­rection.] (48) and that it is He alone who frees from want and causes to possess; (49) and that it is He alone who sustains the bright­est star; [Lit., “who is the Sustainer of Sirius (ash-shira)”, a star of the first magnitude, belonging to the constellation Canis Major. Because it is the brightest star in the heavens, it was widely worshipped in pre-Islamic Arabia. Idiomatically, the phrase rabb ash-shira is used as a metonym for the Creator and Upholder of the universe.] (50) and that it is He who destroyed the ancient [tribes of] Ad (51) and Thamud, leaving no trace [of them], [For the story of the tribe of Ad, see second half of note on 7: 65; for that of the Thamud, note on 7: 73.] (52) as well as the people of Noah before them - [since,] verily, they all had been most willful in their evildoing and most overweening - (53) just as He thrust into perdition those cities that were overthrown (54) and then covered them from sight forever. [Lit., “so that there covered them that which covered”: a reference to Sodom and Gomorrah, the cities of “Lot’s people” (see, in particular, 11: 77-83).] (55) About which, then, of thy Sustainer’s powers canst thou [still] remain in doubt? [This rhetorical question is evidently addressed to the type of man spoken of in verses 33-35. For the reason of my rendering of ala (lit., “blessings” or “bounties”) as “powers”, see second half of note on 55: 13.] (56) THIS IS a warning like those warnings of old: [Lit., “a warning of [or “from among”] the warnings of old” - implying that the revelation granted to Muhammad does not aim at establishing a “new” religion but, on the contrary, continues and confirms the basic message entrusted to the earlier prophets - in this particular instance alluding to the certainty of the coming of the Last Hour and of God’s ultimate judgment.] (57) that [Last Hour] which is so near draws ever nearer, (58) [although] none but God can unveil it.... (59) Do you, perchance, find this tiding strange? (60) And do you laugh instead of weeping, (61) and divert yourselves all the while? (62) [Nay,] but prostrate yourselves before God, and worship [Him alone]!

peace

[Nasir666]

I have no desire to live forever...in my family most male die in there 80's and women in 90's, i'll be happy if i live that long. :happy:

[جوري]

Mash'Allah
May Allah bless you and yours with a long happy, rightous life..

:w:

[Amat Allah]

I do not want to be immortal at all


I am realy satisfied as a normal mortal


human being Al humdo lellah


jazak Allah the paradise


Amen

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

...
Would you choose to live on this earth forever and why?

nuh....this life is full of sorrow , tension , sickness etc , etc. I don't like to face these forever . Instead it's better to go the other world , where InshaAllah life will be better for the believers .


So , i want to meet Allah in heaven :)

[Periwinkle18]

i voted no, i don't want to live on earth forever.

[Ninth_Scribe]

MY question is of course would you sign up?
Would you choose to live on this earth forever and why?

thank you

OMG! I would not want to be on Earth for even a split second longer than I actually had to be. I wouldn't mind staying youthful in appearance, but if it meant I had to live forever... here... well, call me strange, but that's like being sentenced to Hell.

I don't know if you thought about this or not, but if all the generations don't take turns and they all live on the Earth together (no one leaves), what will happen? The place is already over-crowded as it is!

The Ninth Scribe

[Grace Seeker]

I don't know if you thought about this or not, but if all the generations don't take turns and they all live on the Earth together (no one leaves), what will happen? The place is already over-crowded as it is!

This is true. Does this mean that you would object to other people being allowed to make use of Purest's shot? Because if others did, even though you didn't, the world would still be suffering the same level of increase in over-crowding.

[جوري]

the need to procreate for offspring would cease.. it would be the perfect final step to 'evolution' if you think about it!

peace

[Grace Seeker]

the need to procreate for offspring would cease.. it would be the perfect final step to 'evolution' if you think about it!

peace

Whooops!! There goes your sales to Catholics.:p
You know how they feel about any form of birth control that isn't totally natural.

[جوري]

Whooops!! There goes your sales to Catholics.:p
You know how they feel about any form of birth control that isn't totally natural.

biologically speaking, the reproductive organs would completely regress.. become rudimentary/nonfunctional.. again.. that really seems to be the logical end to evolution.. perfect immortals.. :coolious:


peace

[Grace Seeker]

biologically speaking, the reproductive organs would completely regress.. become rudimentary/nonfunctional.. again.. that really seems to be the logical end to evolution.. perfect immortals.. :coolious:


peace

No need to pass along one's genes because the individual itself (hardly a "him" or a "her" if no biological reproductive organs) would be the means for their survival.

And with no need you presuppose that they would both cease to function and even to exist at all??


I'm not so sure that we can make that assumption in an already existing living creature. There isn't going to be any process of natural selection to cause that to evolve. A person's muscles wither from lack of use, they don't disappear. Beside, I don't think that it is assumed that a virginal old maid or old bachelor are necessarily incapable of producing progeny just because they haven't actually used their reproductive organs. If they took the shots while they were young enough, would they maintain their level of reproductive function for as long as they continued to take the shots in the same way everything else would be maintained?

[جوري]

No need to pass along one's genes because the individual itself (hardly a "him" or a "her" if no biological reproductive organs) would be the means for their survival.

And with no need you presuppose that they would both cease to function and even to exist at all??

Just following the logic of favorable heritable traits being passed down. At some point one should reach that 'immaculate' being and with that the whole evolutionary process would desist.. I mean it seems perfectly sound to me following the premises of evolution. the end result a perfect being, where reproductive organs regress, cellular apoptosis would cease, and at the end we don't merely have a good 80, 90 years with cellular aging, we would in fact have constant rejuvenation and immortality!

I'm not so sure that we can make that assumption in an already existing living creature.

I don't believe there are.. all things die

There isn't going to be any process of natural selection to cause that to evolve.

well shouldn't evolution itself come to a halt when it has attained 'perfection'? what is the purpose of it otherwise?

A person's muscles wither from lack of use, they don't disappear.

Muscles can atrophy from disuse it is true, and there is a host of ramification.. a Muscle is meant to be beefy with very little nucleus!

Beside, I don't think that it is assumed that a virginal old maid or old bachelor are necessarily incapable of producing progeny just because they haven't actually used their reproductive organs.

Some folks make the assumption that nipples in men and the appendix are rudimentary and worthless, even though I personally know of usages for both.. have in fact addressed this in the H&S section of this forum under http://www.islamicboard.com/health-s...ity-study.html

but presupposing otherwise and 'theoretically' of course.. gonads would cease to be functional!

If they took the shots while they were young enough, would they maintain their level of reproductive function for as long as they continued to take the shots in the same way everything else would be maintained?

you realize of course this is a hypothetical, but yes designed to halt cell death natural or by injury.. Many shots we take today put to rest our hormones or augment them and in that there is atrophy of the direct end target organs.. in time loss of function all together!

cheers

[guyabano]

well, this one should relaunch the discussion.

US scientists say they have produced embryos that are clones of two men, in an attempt to produce patient-specific stem cells.

[جوري]

well, this one should relaunch the discussion.

I agree with that

Many scientists believe that being able to make stem cell lines tailored to individual patients could revolutionise the treatment and prevention of human diseases.

and I really think that is how money should be spent in health care research..

cheers

[Muezzin]

Wait a sec. Will the hypothetical elixir in the first post merely stop a person dying from natural causes? Could they still be killed, or does it make them both eternal and indestructible?

That said, I'd get bored of living forever, and, like a self-harming middle-class emo teenager (or an Anne Rice character), would long to die.

[جوري]

Wait a sec. Will the hypothetical elixir in the first post merely stop a person dying from natural causes? Could they still be killed, or does it make them both eternal and indestructible?

That said, I'd get bored of living forever, and, like a self-harming middle-class emo teenager (or an Anne Rice character), would long to die.

lol.. you could be lestat?...

there are a set number of ways for 'wound/cell/tissue damage and repair' including that under 'direct truama' the causes are numerous it is true but predictable in their course of action.. and Of course my experiment is hypothetical, even cellular change from within by tumor suppressor genes and or ret proto-oncogene or any of the numerous others couldn't possibly work in concert with this experiment.. this is more science fiction than anything along the lines of stealth adapted viruses.. but who knows? ey maybe Dr. J. M. was on to something all along and the govt. unlawfully revoked his license?...


Anyhow, this has been fun and I enjoyed it, even though it went all over the place..

:w:

[Gator]

Just a follow up. I had voted live forever w/ maint, because I want to see what happens. I love history and I would really like to know how the whole human race thing and universe thing works out. (the live forever thing under my assumptions - good health, people I love along with me, etc.)

BUT, as an atheist, I believe I won't know if I die. I'm just gone.

From the overwhelming responses to a certian period for life, I'm betting that most are from theists, believing they go to heaven.

So, for theists, if before getting the injections for living forever, you were shown with absolute certainty that death would truly be the end of existence (no heaven, nothingness), would you change your vote? (plus its under my assumptions of good health, people you love along with you, etc.)

Just a question.

Thanks.

[جوري]

we had many non deists vote for death, you can browse the earlier pages to see their reasons why.. for me personally it would be like an existential hell...

the amazing thing is that 'Muslim' theists don't know whether or not they wil go to heaven, so I don't believe that is a factor in their vote, but I could be mistaken..

You can't prove by scientific means not now not ever that there is no life after death, that your smidget of knowingness won't be drifting off somewhere..
Anymore than you can prove to me that if/when I sleep tonight I won't have any dreams and of their content..

but by contrast it would be interesting to see if atheists knew beyond a reasonable doubt that there is indeed a better life after this with all their loved ones beyond the banalities and the mundanity, of this one, if they would be in pursuit of it?


cheers

[Grace Seeker]

Well, as the whole concept of the experiment is hypothetical, I am willing to allow for other hypotheticals as well. But I am one of those theists who vote to go ahead an get the injection. I don't find life to be a living hell, I think we can find the kingdom of God on earth if we learn to live in it ourselves and look for it in others. Not that I don't believe the hereafter will be even better, but I don't object to living in the present world either. So, I wouldn't change my vote. Though curiously, it might make more less likely to extend my life indefinitely. To have the end just be the end and that's all, puts me in mind to ask what is even the point then of now.

[SomeHowpossible]

worth trying,

This man(me) is always ready to give life his creator. I have no planning to live long but i will try it after it is tested.

___
sss