Islamic response to Atheist argument: Morality comes from survival instinct

[AntiKarateKid]

Hey! I have heard atheists argue this and was wondering what the Islamic response to such claims were?

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Just bookmarking this page so I can come to it later and participate in the discussion.

[Kurisu]

I wouldn't say "survival instinct" as such but i would say that morality is an innate factor of human nature. I'm an atheist and i don't murder, rape, steal etc. because i don't want to be murdered, raped or stolen from.

Also, Social Darwinism is a very funny joke, not a serious concept. Humans form into tribes just as animals form into packs; because of an innate compassion for each other, inherent altruistic tendencies. Although by caring for other people you increase the chance of them caring back, i wouldn't say that survival instincts was the entire basis of it.

[Muezzin]

Many humans are basically hypocritical. The same types of Stereotypical Internet Athiests (as opposed to Real-Life Athiests*, who actually possess a brain) who make such claims would also say love is merely an abstraction of chemical imbalances meant to foster procreation. But those same Internet Athiests would say that they 'love' their significant other or offspring.

'Come here, little Jimmy, the sum of my gametes!'

Not something you'd hear from the mouth of a stable person, eh?

The same thing goes for morality. These same Stereotypical Internet Athiests think it's simply a survival instinct. Okay. How do they explain the anger at the injustice they feel if they're swindled out of their money at, say, a fairground sideshow? You failing to smack a coconut off a stand only cost you a quid or two, but the fact that the thing is rigged and you were lied to irks you because it is unjust and immoral, two concepts that Internet Athiests seem to believe with all of their blessed hearts are simply manifestations of a survival instinct, when their own reactions to events that rub them the wrong way show that this is not so.

We're all human. We all have our own sense of right and wrong. You do something dubious that doesn't leave a mark on a kid while he's sleeping, so he'll never knew what happened? We all agree that such activities are wrong. Do they threaten the kid's survival? No. The kid wasn't physically injured and was unaware of the whole ordeal. Would we still find it wrong and want to see the culprit brought to justice? You betcha.

*Real-life athiests are not exclusive to the real world. You find a lot of them posting thoughtfully and sesnibly on the Internet. Unfortunately, you find a lot of Stereotypical Internet Athiests too, who suck just like Stereotypical Internet Religious People.

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[AntiKarateKid]

Hmm why do they say that religion is jsut a bunch of customs set in place for survival or something and that they just need the do unto others as you would have done unto yourself rule?

[Kurisu]

Many humans are basically hypocritical. The same types of Stereotypical Internet Athiests (as opposed to Real-Life Athiests*, who actually possess a brain) who make such claims would also say love is merely an abstraction of chemical imbalances meant to foster procreation. But those same Internet Athiests would say that they 'love' their significant other or offspring.

'Come here, little Jimmy, the sum of my gametes!'

Not something you'd hear from the mouth of a stable person, eh?

The same thing goes for morality. These same Stereotypical Internet Athiests think it's simply a survival instinct. Okay. How do they explain the anger at the injustice they feel if they're swindled out of their money at, say, a fairground sideshow? You failing to smack a coconut off a stand only cost you a quid or two, but the fact that the thing is rigged and you were lied to irks you because it is unjust and immoral, two concepts that Internet Athiests seem to believe with all of their blessed hearts are simply manifestations of a survival instinct, when their own reactions to events that rub them the wrong way show that this is not so.

We're all human. We all have our own sense of right and wrong. You do something dubious that doesn't leave a mark on a kid while he's sleeping, so he'll never knew what happened? We all agree that such activities are wrong. Do they threaten the kid's survival? No. The kid wasn't physically injured and was unaware of the whole ordeal. Would we still find it wrong and want to see the culprit brought to justice? You betcha.

*Real-life athiests are not exclusive to the real world. You find a lot of them posting thoughtfully and sesnibly on the Internet. Unfortunately, you find a lot of Stereotypical Internet Athiests too, who suck just like Stereotypical Internet Religious People.

Brainiac investigated this, whether you think it's true or not, this video is a good watch http://youtube.com/watch?v=tI0u7GKyju4

[wilberhum]

I thought theists have already proved that atheists have no morals. :-\

[Kurisu]

I thought theists have already proved that atheists have no morals. :-\

It is a bit farfetched to believe that a purely atheist world would be running around naked raping, shooting and stealing rampantly while committing any other sins they could think of.

God saying "Thou shalt not kill" hasn't stopped many theists in the past.

[wilberhum]

It is a bit farfetched to believe that a purely atheist world would be running around naked raping, shooting and stealing rampantly while committing any other sins they could think of.

God saying "Thou shalt not kill" hasn't stopped many theists in the past.

A bit Far Fetched? Not hardly. :D

It is totally stupid.

I guess I should have an LOL to show my sarcastic sense of humor. :coolious:

[AntiKarateKid]

I think we might be straying from the topic right now.....
Any more Islamic responses? thanks to all who did respond do far too!

[Kurisu]

I would guess that Allah is the source of all morality, just as christians would say god was the source of all morality etc. ad nauseam.

[جوري]

there are gradtion of morality, that which is instinctive.. and that in and of itself is an expansive topic, for where has this inherent aptitude come from?
and there is the finetuned, calibrated sense of morality..
to make an analogy between surgery and pathology..
surgery is kind of a primitve art, the methods used today are really no different than those used in pharonic Egypt.. then there is pathology. A surgeon might take out that lump near your neck but it is the pathologist that tells you, this is a pleomorphic adenoma or this is warthin's tumor or this is an oncocytomas, not this is a lymphoepithelial lesion, it is an adenoid cystic, it is a mucoepidermoid carcinomas etc etc etc..
You can think of what religion is to morality as pathology is to surgery..

religion defines for one the fine nuances of morality...


cheers

[Kurisu]

I'm not convinced that religious morality is in any way superior or inferior to atheist/secular morality. Most of morality is just common sense and not being a jerk.

[fsmdude]

I'm very curious: from where did you hear that atheist think that morality comes from survival instinct? I've never heard an atheist saying that. I think they would be wrong to say so, because survival instinct is more of a process that tend to overpass moral actions (putting in daylight our inner animal's behavior, which are to survive no matter what the cost is).

About morality, I'm more of the Kant philosophy: morality comes from reason and logical thinking.

Now about theist. You claim (well, some of them) that morality comes from scripture. Let's take Islam (this forum belonging to members of this religion). When you say, as Kurisu mention, that

Allah is the source of all morality

,
am I right to assume that you get your morals (as you say) from the Qu'ran.
So Allah--->Qu'ran---->You
So, if your morality coming from your scripture (so from Allah), you should do EVERYTHING of what the Qu'ran say, even the nasty parts. The same thing should apply to Christian and their Bible, Jews and their Torah, Hindus and their Vedas, and so on...

BUT! When the Qu'ran says to kill every muslim who leave islam for an another religion, I don't think you do it (I'm relaying on hope and faith on that one). So if you don't, is it too much of an assumption to claim that you don't because it would be immoral to do that? Then, you have the ability to pick and choose in the Qu'ran what's moral and what is not. But how do you do that, if your morals come from the Qu'ran? You see, if you can do that, you already have this ability inside you. The same apply to Chritstians who claim that their moral comes from the bible.

So if we already have that capacity inside ourself, why only limiting ourself to the Qu'ran, the Bible or the Torah. As far as I know we could use Harry Pother or the dictionnary. Some people like me thinks that morality comes from logical thinking (like me) , others think that it comes from emotion, social rules or evolution (like Richard Dawkins). It is surely a mix of all of them.

To the people who claim that their morality comes from their scripture, whitout exception (about their morality, not their scripture. Bhuddist are fine:D ), you are saying that the only things that keep you from killing your neighbor, raping his daughter and stealing all his stuff is your fear of afterlife or from Allah/God/Yaweh, I will ask you this:

Please, stay the **** away from me, my family, my friends and from any other creature capable of suffering that has the bad luck to be near you. And avoid at all cost any conversation with a non-believer, may he be an atheist, humanist, secular, agnostic, or else. Please, for humanity's sake, continue to believe and good luck with your faith

[جوري]

You are speaking of hypotheticals that have no basis in the Quran. Until you bring a specific verse to question its contents, its exegesis, and its practical application, can there be a point to that portion of your conjecture/debate!..

secondly, we don't know where 'atheist' morality comes from as every new atheist defines it differently..is there some text that atheists follow for their dogma? I personally tend to think so, each formulates and/or follows a school of thought, it is human to want 'structure' even those so opposed to the idea of an all governing being, will look for lesser more dispersed options to follow, in and of itself a mini 'religion' and I can see that 'Kant philosophy' is yours.

I don't know personally how you define logic and reason. I believe that differs from person to person.
it is logical that you may want to enucleate a pleomorphic adenoma, it is also logically to want to excise it all together.. are either curative? really depends on the tumor itself doesn't? to whom do you relegate the job?
Again perfectly logical, sound people differ on their opinion.. you need a governing body to sit and decide what is best for the patient's health over all, what is best in terms of cosemtic consequences, what is best in terms of financial abilities, what is best in terms of preserving the neighboring structures..
if you rely on your own 'moral compass' well there is no telling what sort of anarchy or chaos that will lead to..
if you rely on a one scientist's opinion, you might get into big trouble just focusing on one area.. thus an ethical committee sits down, takes it all in and by consensus decides what is the best course of action..
That is what religion is to morality.. again you can go on relying on ['logic' whatever that means] a few noble men's opinions or you can seek divine council as was decreed.. and that is an expansive topic all itself, as I will not sit here and discuss which religion or why as this isn't a topic of which religion is best.. irregardless, all abrahamic religions teach the same divine laws.. and no none of them say go kill massive people... certainly not along the lines of morality instituted by atheists the likes of enver hoxha, mao xedong, saloth sar, stalin or sung 1I etc...

cheers

[snakelegs]

BUT! When the Qu'ran says to kill every muslim who leave islam for an another religion

please tell me where it says that in the qur'an. thanks.

[Roasted Cashew]

please tell me where it says that in the qur'an. thanks.

Dude, good one. Ignorance is bliss here.

[fsmdude]

Okay, if you insist. I Google: Islam+kill+apostate
10 seconds later.

Okay, here we go (I'm quoting from the Hadith too, whatever that mean?) All the verse come from these website under:

The Qur'an:
Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Sura (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist." This verse is speaking of infidels (ie. "slay the infidels wherever you find them" 9:5) who obviously become Muslims to escape the sword, but the Hadith make no distinction of how a Muslim came to be a Muslim. Apostasy is always punished by death.

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Sura (2:217), Sura (9:73-74), Sura (88:21), Sura (5:54), and Sura (9:66).

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."


Website where it came from:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...2-apostasy.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostas...anic_reference

http://www.********************/Auth...n/apostasy.htm

And of top of that, 2 real case in newpaper

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/society...th-penalty.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2426314.ece

[fsmdude]

You don't wanna know what the Qu'ran says about "special treatments" for nonbeliver.

[جوري]

I am grateful that at least you admit to being a google scholar..
now if we are done cutting and pasting and going for carpet bombing google style..
here is the proper Islamic perspective on apostacy.. a simple search here too would he yielded results in the same speed as google!

You can find more information about Islam and apostasy in these threads/links:

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...-apostasy.html (Islam and Apostasy)

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...ent-islam.html (Crime and Punishment in Islam)


cheers

[جوري]

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_de...conceptions#28

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...-apostasy.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/miscella...ent-islam.html

[snakelegs]

Okay, if you insist. I Google: Islam+kill+apostate
10 seconds later.

Okay, here we go (I'm quoting from the Hadith too, whatever that mean?) All the verse come from these website under:

The Qur'an:
Sura (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them"

Sura (9:11-12) - "But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge. And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist." This verse is speaking of infidels (ie. "slay the infidels wherever you find them" 9:5) who obviously become Muslims to escape the sword, but the Hadith make no distinction of how a Muslim came to be a Muslim. Apostasy is always punished by death.

Other verses that seem to support the many Hadith demanding death for apostates are Sura (2:217), Sura (9:73-74), Sura (88:21), Sura (5:54), and Sura (9:66).

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:260) - "...The Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Bukhari (83:37) - "Allah's Apostle never killed anyone except in one of the following three situations: (1) A person who killed somebody unjustly, was killed (in Qisas,) (2) a married person who committed illegal sexual intercourse and (3) a man who fought against Allah and His Apostle and deserted Islam and became an apostate."

Bukhari (84:57) - "[In the words of] Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Bukhari (89:271) - A man who embraces Islam, then reverts to Judaism is to be killed according to "the verdict of Allah and his apostle."


Website where it came from:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Qu...2-apostasy.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostas...anic_reference

http://www.********************/Auth...n/apostasy.htm

And of top of that, 2 real case in newpaper

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/society...th-penalty.htm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2426314.ece

neither addresses killing the believer who becomes an apostate.
you wrote:

the Qu'ran says to kill every muslim who leave islam for an another religion

you did not mention the hadiths.
in fact, you will not find this anywhere in the qur'an.

[Roasted Cashew]

neither addresses killing the believer who becomes an apostate.
you wrote:

you did not mention the hadiths.
in fact, you will not find this anywhere in the qur'an.

How true. If the guy had said Hadith, it would be true but he said the Qur'an. Just proves his ignorance. I hope he reads the Islamic perspective posted by another poster.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
I think to some extent morality is part of a survival instinct but it depends on what you mean really. If it's morality as in taking life then yes I can see the linkage between survival instinct (Man vs sabretooth tigre - man's morality of taking life is used as a survival instinct ro fight the sabretooth tigre)

Morality is a fairly large area - it is possible to define but the linkages between survival instinct are not always that clear. It really depends on the situation.

In terms of religion; majority of the rulings (at least in Islam) all enforce and remind us of our morality (in its broader sense). If you can understand basic English, you'll be able to see that in the English translation of the Quran. I'm not going to bother refuting the ayats someone posted since if you give it a full read it actually describes the situation (aka context) - so if you are still seeing red when it is green, you need your eyes tested and should probably see a psychiatrist.

[fsmdude]

I know that the Qu'ran is the scripture behind Islam. But I don't know what the word Hadith mean?

I have choosen the part about apostate in the Qu'ran, but we could pick other parts that are... questionnable?

If you didn't see the part I was talking about (apostasy) in the website I've posted, we cannot neglect the fact that people can really be killed for that (look at newpaper links).

[Roasted Cashew]

I know that the Qu'ran is the scripture behind Islam. But I don't know what the word Hadith mean?

I have choosen the part about apostate in the Qu'ran, but we could pick other parts that are... questionnable?

If you didn't see the part I was talking about (apostasy) in the website I've posted, we cannot neglect the fact that people can really be killed for that (look at newpaper links).

Hadith is a collection of Sayings of Prophet Muhammad(pbuh). There are authentic hadith and not so authentic hadith. I hope you do look at the link that Purest.... posted regarding apostasy in Islam and update yourself. I hope you don't get obsessed with a few newspaper clippings. Did you know some so-called Muslims flew planes into the world trade center? That wasn't very Islamic! If a Muslim does it, it doesn't mean it's alright in Islam to do it. There are Black Sheeps in every religion.

[snakelegs]

I know that the Qu'ran is the scripture behind Islam. But I don't know what the word Hadith mean?

I have choosen the part about apostate in the Qu'ran, but we could pick other parts that are... questionnable?

If you didn't see the part I was talking about (apostasy) in the website I've posted, we cannot neglect the fact that people can really be killed for that (look at newpaper links).

i didn't look at the newspaper links.
the point is you made the statement that

the Qu'ran says to kill every muslim who leave islam for an another religion

if you look at the parts i bolded in the verses you quoted you should be able to see that apostasy is not the subject, but violating a pact is the issue.
when you make statements such as the above, you should be sure you know what you're talking about.
am i saying apostasy is not a capital crime in islam? no, i am not. i am just saying that no where does the qur'an say what you said it does.

[Isambard]

Morality coming from survival instincts is a stupid arguement.

Just because instincts makes us more co-operative as a group says nothing about morality especially in the case of "bad" collectives ie. the Mafia

[Gator]

I don't quite understand where your going with this. Why does the existence of a Mafia mean that the relative and variable morality we perceive did not encourage survival?

[root]

Morality coming from survival instincts is a stupid arguement.

And that is your arguement?

Just because instincts makes us more co-operative as a group says nothing about morality especially in the case of "bad" collectives ie. the Mafia

If we talk about morality, we must first acknowledge intelligence & extelligence, and how the two source of morality come together. I think the fact that irrespective of religion, countries prisons reflect on average society trends exposes the suggestion that moral societies require a moral religion.

[Tyrion]

*lots of awesome text*

skye, are you a computer? o.o seriously, you and some of the admins on this site are unbelievably smart. :P