100% proof that jesus is NOT god

[truemuslim]

:sl:

Here is a website showing proof jesus is not god... PROOF

and here is a vid frum youtube...

MORE PROOF







....AND PLEASE DO NOT HAVE THOSE ANNOYING RELIGION FIGHTS YALL ARE ALWAYS HAVING ON THIS>...


:w:

[truemuslim]

...same rules as omari on his thread...lol..

[truemuslim]

k im out...sleeeeeeepppyy... i better not wake up with a huge fight here and one of these... :threadclo or these :argue: k? k... i want this... :Crescent: peaaace... :w:

[Keltoi]

None of that is proof of anything except a clear indication that a clear understanding of Christian doctrine is lacking.

Most of them have been addressed numerous times in other threads. One aspect that might not have been brought up yet, although it probably has, was the question on the video about God not being tempted, but Christ was...

The answer is very simple. Christ was delivered to us for that very reason, his human weakness.

"though he was in the form of God, [Jesus] did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross" (Phil 2:6-8).

"The Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve" (Mk 10:45).

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[------]

:salamext:

Christians say that God came down to earth in the form of Jesus, to learn how human beings suffered, felt etc, right?

I'm going to use Zakir Naik's argument here - "If a person makes a Video Player, the person does not need to become a video player to know what is good and bad for it! He would write an instruction manual. In this way, God has given us the Qur'aan and this is our instruction manual. It tells us what is good and bad, what to avoid, what is allowed, etc."

[Gator]

Christians say that God came down to earth in the form of Jesus, to learn how human beings suffered, felt etc, right?

I don't think that's correct. God already knew the human condition as he is the creator and all. Didn't he come down as more of an example and offer a way for mankind to redeem their sins?

Hopefully one of the Christians will set us straight on this.

[------]

:salamext:

"redeem their sins?"

If God wanted people with no sins, then we wouldn't have been given free will!! Honestly think about it logically people... :-\

[ummsara1108]

How many times can a person commit the same sin before he's not forgiven?

[guyabano]

He would write an instruction manual. In this way, God has given us the Qur'aan and this is our instruction manual.

Do you actually know, how much people read an instruction manual when they buy a DVD Player or a TV?
People have more the 'plug-and-play-then-when-smoke-comes-out-I read-the-Instruction-manual' attitude.

[Gator]

:salamext:

"redeem their sins?"

If God wanted people with no sins, then we wouldn't have been given free will!! Honestly think about it logically people... :-\

He gave them free will and the tendencies to sin, so he has to give mankind a way out. Therefore he came down and sacrificed himself for there forgiveness. Or at least that's the Christians logic right?

But speaking of logic, so are you saying he actually wants people to sin since he gave people free will (the existence of which is a whole other argument).

[------]

:salamext:

People have more the 'plug-and-play-then-when-smoke-comes-out-I read-the-Instruction-manual' attitude.

Well then they can't complain when they go and do something stupid and have to face the consequences. :-\

[ummsara1108]

I believe it states GOD came down in a human FORM, which means what he would of looked like if he were human.





but let's just say for a minute god, jesus and the holy spirit (trinity) were all one, doesn't that mean when jesus died so did god and the holy spirit?

[------]

:salamext:

But speaking of logic, so are you saying he actually wants people to sin since he gave people free will (the existence of which is a whole other argument).

Nope. As I said before, He (God) has given all the guidlines and the perfect example to us (Muhammad, Peace be upon him). God has told us the way we get to Paradise and the way we get to Hell. What we want to do is up to us.

Let me use an example of an Islamic Scholar, Ibn Al Qayyim, who said:

"Get yourself out of this limited world of diseases to the wide world of the Hereafter, which has what the eyes have never seen. Nothing is impossible there, and love is not lost. O you who have sold yourself for the sake of something that will cause you suffering and pain, and which will also lose its beauty, you sold the most precious item for the cheapest price, as if you neither knew the value of the goods nor the meanness of the price. Wait until you come to the Day of mutual loss and gain and you will discover the injustice of this contract. “There is not god by Allaah” is something that Allaah is buying. Its price is Paradise, and the Messenger is its agent, and you will be pleased to part with a small part of this worldly life to obtain it. The part you lose is a small part of something that as a whole is not worth a mosquito’s wing."

[Gator]

I believe it states GOD came down in a human FORM, which means what he would of looked like if he were human.

but let's just say for a minute god, jesus and the holy spirit (trinity) were all one, doesn't that mean when jesus died so did god and the holy spirit?

Alright people I'm playing devils advocate here (Christians pardon the expression). All I say can be taken back, corrected, and replaced by whatever a Christian says.

But it quite clearly states that he rose again right?

And this three god thing doesn't make sense either. I have no problem believing an all-powerful god can be described by humans in three different ways if it manifests itself differently. Muslims have like what 99 names for god? That is unless you believe that he is not all powerful.

Although I just noticed that 99 divided by 3 equals 33! Which is the number of days after which jesus rose........plus 30 days.

Taking off Chrisitan fundy hat now.

[------]

:salamext:

Muslims have like what 99 names for god? That is unless you believe that he is not all powerful.

Not 99 specifically. God can be called by any name in Islam as long as its beautiful and does not form an image in the mind. E.g. All Merciful, All Loving, etc.

Let me give another example here (Zakir Naik's): Some Christians say to describe the trinity that water is still water, whether its water vapour in the gas form, water in the liquid form, or ice in the solid form. The formula remains the same. This is like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

However, the properties of H20 (Water) remains the same throughout all three processes. It does not 'change' the formula of the water. It remains H20.

If we put this into perspective, we can see that God, Human and 'bird' [excuse my lack of vocabulary] do not have the same properties, functions etc, when they are known to be as one.

[Keltoi]

:salamext:

Christians say that God came down to earth in the form of Jesus, to learn how human beings suffered, felt etc, right?

I'm going to use Zakir Naik's argument here - "If a person makes a Video Player, the person does not need to become a video player to know what is good and bad for it! He would write an instruction manual. In this way, God has given us the Qur'aan and this is our instruction manual. It tells us what is good and bad, what to avoid, what is allowed, etc."

Christ didn't come to Earth to "learn how human beings suffered", He came down to be one of them, to redeem mankind in the eyes of God, and to suffer for their transgressions, thereby allowing a path to salvation. The ultimate act of atonement.

[Keltoi]

:salamext:

"redeem their sins?"

If God wanted people with no sins, then we wouldn't have been given free will!! Honestly think about it logically people... :-\

It isn't that God "wants people without sin"...He knows very well that people will sin. As an act of mercy, Christ was delivered to us as a way to achieve salvation even though we don't deserve it.

*Adding to that, I would also say that despite our faults God does indeed wish for us to achieve salvation through Him, otherwise Christ would not have been sent to us.

[Gator]

Nope. As I said before, He (God) has given all the guidlines and the perfect example to us (Muhammad, Peace be upon him). God has told us the way we get to Paradise and the way we get to Hell. What we want to do is up to us.

You wanted me to use logic in your snippy answer, well here is an equally snippy example of logic based on your premises-

P1) If God wanted people with no sins, then we wouldn't have been given free will! [direct quote]

P2) God gave us free will. [do you disagree?]

C - God wants people with sin.

Plus, your response and quote leads to another question, didn't god create us all?

You are saying he gave us the tendencies to sin (powerful enough to overcome reason) and then gives us a book telling us to repress these god-given tendencies or we burn in hell.

(Sorry to be a jerk and I apologize, its just that your answer ticked me off)

[Gator]

If we put this into perspective, we can see that God, Human and 'bird' [excuse my lack of vocabulary] do not have the same properties, functions etc, when they are known to be as one.

So an all powerful god can't have manifestations described differently with different characteristics?

[Keltoi]

I believe it states GOD came down in a human FORM, which means what he would of looked like if he were human.





but let's just say for a minute god, jesus and the holy spirit (trinity) were all one, doesn't that mean when jesus died so did god and the holy spirit?

I'm not sure about your first statement, there is no mention that Christ is the human visual representation of God. I don't think that is even concievable.

As for the second part, Christ did not die, at least not the permanent physical death that we must endure. As Christ Himself said, He returned to the Father.

[Gator]

Keltoi, thank God your here. Hope I din't miss represent your views.

I'm out.

[------]

:salamext:

Lol! I wonder why you want to defend Christianity Gator, when you are an atheist?

...despite our faults God does indeed wish for us to achieve salvation through Him, otherwise Christ would not have been sent to us.

Actually, it makes more sense if the people that rape, steal, etc. get their punishment for what they did.

E.g. if a person rapes someone, and declares his faith in Jesus tomorrow, he will be forgiven? He will attain salvation? How is that fair?

[------]

:salamext:

You are saying he gave us the tendencies to sin (powerful enough to overcome reason) and then gives us a book telling us to repress these god-given tendencies or we burn in hell.

Nope. I am saying that He gave us Free Will, so that lets us to choose whether to sin and live a life of misery in this world and the hereafter, or happy lives in both.

E.g. You steal, ur gonna have cops after you, and punished in the Hereafter.
You earn ur living, u will have the satisfaction of that and no cops running after you. Get me?

[Gator]

Hey AhLÄÄM,
Just like to debate and thought there were some weakness in the course of the discussion.

I do understand what you are saying about freewill, but I don't think you're getting my point.

God is the creator. He creates me. Gives me freewill. Gives me reason. Gives me the need to eat. Gives me the ability to love. Gives me the ability to hate. Gives me the need to procreate. Gives me world I grow up in (beaten and neglected by my parents). Gives me the need to drink alcohol (alcoholic). Gives me the tendency to find other men attactive (just for the record, I'm not gay, not that there's anything wrong with that).

God not only gives us freewill, but the tendencies to SIN. Why?

We are way off topic I think so after your response, that'll be it. Unless you open another thread.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Mikayeel]

:salamext:



Not 99 specifically. God can be called by any name in Islam as long as its beautiful and does not form an image in the mind. E.g. All Merciful, All Loving, etc.

Let me give another example here (Zakir Naik's): Some Christians say to describe the trinity that water is still water, whether its water vapour in the gas form, water in the liquid form, or ice in the solid form. The formula remains the same. This is like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

However, the properties of H20 (Water) remains the same throughout all three processes. It does not 'change' the formula of the water. It remains H20.

If we put this into perspective, we can see that God, Human and 'bird' [excuse my lack of vocabulary] do not have the same properties, functions etc, when they are known to be as one.

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله تعالى وبركاته

loool i was just about to give an example of the zakir naik :okay: u beat me with it GRRR:) nice one

[------]

:salamext:

God not only gives us freewill, but the tendencies to SIN. Why?

Do you mean inclinations? Wanting to sin? I understand your point, but I don't agree with it I'm afraid. E.g. A beautiful woman walks past some men in revealing clothes. Those men that have in their consciousness that they will be judged for everything they do, or those who have found more satisfaction [inner peace] with God, would not want to look at her. Other men who just obey their desires and do not care about the hereafter or God, will look.

Yes we are off topic big time. If you want to continue this discussion then kindly drop me a PM. Thanks.

EDIT: truemuslim sis, I am sorry for turning this thread into a debate, but I needed to clear the confusion. Sorry once again.

[Souljette]

Back ON TOPIC

Proof that Jesus is not God is found in the bible itself...

Mathew 11:25
"At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and has revealed them unto babes.'"

Mathew 14:23
"And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray..."

If Jesus is God or part of God then why did he pray? In fact, prayer is always from a submitting, needy and dependent one for the Mercy of Almighty Allah as mentioned in the Qur'an:

"O mankind! it is you who stand in need of Allah but Allah is Rich (Free of all wants and needs), Worthy of all praise" (V.35:15)

mATTHEW 19:16-17-
"And behold, one came and said unto him, 'Good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?' And he said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? (There is) none good but one, (i.e.) God, but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'"

In the above verses we note this acknowledgement of his submissiveness to God.

Matthew 21:45-46
"And when the chief priests and pharisees had heard his parable, they perceived that he spoke of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude because they took him for a Prophet."

Here it is proved that all those who believed in Jesus during his lifetime did not believe in him being God or the Son of God or one in the doctrine of Trinity; but they believed in him as being a Prophet only.

Correct me if i'm wrong..

[Keltoi]

:salamext:

Lol! I wonder why you want to defend Christianity Gator, when you are an atheist?



Actually, it makes more sense if the people that rape, steal, etc. get their punishment for what they did.

E.g. if a person rapes someone, and declares his faith in Jesus tomorrow, he will be forgiven? He will attain salvation? How is that fair?

If that faith is honest and a sinner sincerely gives his or her life to Christ then they are indeed forgiven, it is up to God to judge the sincerity of a person's soul.

[Keltoi]

Back ON TOPIC

Proof that Jesus is not God is found in the bible itself...

Mathew 11:25
"At that time Jesus answered and said, 'I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and has revealed them unto babes.'"

Mathew 14:23
"And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray..."

If Jesus is God or part of God then why did he pray? In fact, prayer is always from a submitting, needy and dependent one for the Mercy of Almighty Allah as mentioned in the Qur'an:

"O mankind! it is you who stand in need of Allah but Allah is Rich (Free of all wants and needs), Worthy of all praise" (V.35:15)

mATTHEW 19:16-17-
"And behold, one came and said unto him, 'Good master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?' And he said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? (There is) none good but one, (i.e.) God, but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.'"

In the above verses we note this acknowledgement of his submissiveness to God.

Matthew 21:45-46
"And when the chief priests and pharisees had heard his parable, they perceived that he spoke of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude because they took him for a Prophet."

Here it is proved that all those who believed in Jesus during his lifetime did not believe in him being God or the Son of God or one in the doctrine of Trinity; but they believed in him as being a Prophet only.

Correct me if i'm wrong..

No, it only proves you cited verses that don't include Christ's claim to divinity.

[mohsen1985]

:sl:
Let me add this to the discussion.

Some prerequisites first.
1. The holy Qur'an is prophet Mohammad's miracle. As we all know he was illiterate and bringing a book like the holy Qur'an is an impossible task for even the most intelligent literate man.

2. As said by the prophets before prophet Mohammad he will be the last prophet, also, as said in the Qur'an and many occasions by prophet Mohammad himself.

3. Based on many historical reasons we know there haven't been any changes made in the holy Qur'an, so it is exactly the Qur'an that was revealed to the prophet. Some historical reasons include the Arab people's love for the it which resulted in them memorising it, writing it, etc... And since it was a holy book they preserved it well. The holy Qur'an was revealed in small pieces, two, three verses and the prophet would memorise those, recite it, and his followers would write it. Also, as Allah says in the Qur'an, he will protect it himself. These are just a couple of the basic reasons, there are many other proofs of the this and the statements before.

Now that we have the basic facts that the holy Qur'an is from Allah, and has not been changed, we take a look at surah Al-Ikhlas:

Tell them Mohammad that Allah is "AHAD". ahad here is a key word, with this interpertation: ahad means the one where it has no second. For example you could have a "first, second, third, etc . . .", however ahad means "the one" which has no second. It's second is also itself which mean it's the one.

Allah is "SAMAD". Samad means something that has no color, no place, no amount, no weight, it's neither here or there, it's everywhere, it cannot be seen, has no shape, time and dimension are not defined for it, etc . . .

He hasn't given birth to anyone, nor was he given birth to. Pretty clear what it means.

He has no equal or partner.

Now, if God himself says he hasn't been born, and hasn't given birth to anyone:

1. Jesus cannot be God > Jesus was born from the virgin Mary. Hint: given birth to < not God!
2. God is not Jesus' father > God hasn't given birth to anyone

[جوري]

For Jesus to be 'God' , that would defy the very concept of monotheism.
And what a sorry existence for a 'God', first to come down in form of a 'spirit' to impregnate a young woman with himself, forget about his Godly duties of governing the universe, the orbits, the stars, night and day, the setting of the sun, and everything therein in between, only to go dormant for some 20 years or longer, then one day, he decides, hey everyone I am God worship me. I am a little poor and unkepmpt but I have come to absolve you from your sins, he then gets crucified, dies for three days or so, I am not sure what the deal was with the angel of death who took his soul, to bring him to another God who is also supposed to be him, who knows where the third God the 'holy spirit' was hanging out meanwhile and voila, 'monotheism'-- if you can get someone to believe in santa clause, then you'll get them to believe that too!

And then you have a fellow who states Islam borrows from christianity, lol.. which part did we borrow? the idolatry? the man-god? the confounding and contradictory passages, or the anti-climax itself of God dying for our sins?



christianity is pretty, there is stain glass and candles, but that is as far as it goes as a religion.. the prayers are no more than singing to the ominous sounds of the organ, the holidays are nothing but a commercial endeavor to boost the economy after the dog days of summer...

at this stage, I say worship what you will!
But no amount of reason is going to makeup the deficiencies and frank erroneous beliefs...



peace!

[جوري]

:sl:
Let me add this to the discussion.

Some prerequisites first.
1. The holy Qur'an is prophet Mohammad's miracle. As we all know he was illiterate and bringing a book like the holy Qur'an is an impossible task for even the most intelligent literate man.

2. As said by the prophets before prophet Mohammad he will be the last prophet, also, as said in the Qur'an and many occasions by prophet Mohammad himself.

3. Based on many historical reasons we know there haven't been any changes made in the holy Qur'an, so it is exactly the Qur'an that was revealed to the prophet. Some historical reasons include the Arab people's love for the it which resulted in them memorising it, writing it, etc... And since it was a holy book they preserved it well. The holy Qur'an was revealed in small pieces, two, three verses and the prophet would memorise those, recite it, and his followers would write it. Also, as Allah says in the Qur'an, he will protect it himself. These are just a couple of the basic reasons, there are many other proofs of the this and the statements before.

Now that we have the basic facts that the holy Qur'an is from Allah, and has not been changed, we take a look at surah Al-Ikhlas:

Tell them Mohammad that Allah is "AHAD". ahad here is a key word, with this interpertation: ahad means the one where it has no second. For example you could have a "first, second, third, etc . . .", however ahad means "the one" which has no second. It's second is also itself which mean it's the one.

Allah is "SAMAD". Samad means something that has no color, no place, no amount, no weight, it's neither here or there, it's everywhere, it cannot be seen, has no shape, time and dimension are not defined for it, etc . . .

He hasn't given birth to anyone, nor was he given birth to. Pretty clear what it means.

He has no equal or partner.

Now, if God himself says he hasn't been born, and hasn't given birth to anyone:

1. Jesus cannot be God > Jesus was born from the virgin Mary. Hint: given birth to < not God!
2. God is not Jesus' father > God hasn't given birth to anyone

Great post.. do you ever wonder why Allah SWT has used the term 'Ahad' and not 'Wahid' as an attribute to himseld? essentially both denote 'one'-'singular'.. he used 'Ahad' to denote indivisible!
And that is all the refutation I need as to him taking a 'son'

:w:

[snakelegs]

Christ didn't come to Earth to "learn how human beings suffered", He came down to be one of them, to redeem mankind in the eyes of God, and to suffer for their transgressions, thereby allowing a path to salvation. The ultimate act of atonement.

one thing i can't understand is why did God find this necessary - the atonement? couldn't he just forgive people if they repented without this sacrifice thing?

[mohsen1985]

Everyone is responsible for what they do, why should Jesus suffer for other people's actions?:uuh:

[Keltoi]

one thing i can't understand is why did God find this necessary - the atonement? couldn't he just forgive people if they repented without this sacrifice thing?

This goes back to the Old Testament and the sacrificial atonements for sin observed by the Jewish people. Sin must be punished. Going back to the Old Testament...

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Hebrews 9:22

The blood of bulls and and goats in the days of Moses delayed God's wrath against sin, but it was never enough to remove sin completely.

Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could roll backwards to the first sinner and forward to the last.

[Keltoi]

Everyone is responsible for what they do, why should Jesus suffer for other people's actions?:uuh:

Simply put, for the sake of forgiveness and reconciliation with God.

[mohsen1985]

Prophets are sent to guide us, not to suffer for us. Anyway, I don't know much about Christianity, I proved Jesus is not God nor his son based on my knowledge. How can you defy that?

[Keltoi]

Prophets are sent to guide us, not to suffer for us. Anyway, I don't know much about Christianity, I proved Jesus is not God nor his son based on my knowledge. How can you defy that?

Sorry, but you didn't "prove" anything. If you wish to see the verses in the NT in which Christ claims divinity they are spread about everywhere on this forum. Try the comparative religion section.

[mohsen1985]

Yeah I did, 8 or 9 posts before this one.

[جوري]

How did Jesus' people know him?


"And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet." - Matthew 14:5 (compare with Matthew 21:26)

"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." - Matthew 21:11


"But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." - Matthew 21:46

"And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:" - Luke 24:19

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." - John 4:19

"Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world." - John 6:14

"Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet." - John 7:40

Indeed, how did Jesus himself describe himself? Let us read:

"Nevertheless I (Jesus) must walk to day, and to morrow, and the [day] following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." - Luke 13:33

And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.- Matthew 13:57

This is once again confirmed in the noble Qur'an:

"And when Jesus son of Mary said: O Children of Israel! Verily! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was [revealed] before me in the Torah"- The noble Qur'an, Al-Saf(61):6

[Keltoi]

Yeah I did, 8 or 9 posts before this one.

You did what?

[snakelegs]

This goes back to the Old Testament and the sacrificial atonements for sin observed by the Jewish people. Sin must be punished. Going back to the Old Testament...

"In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness." Hebrews 9:22

The blood of bulls and and goats in the days of Moses delayed God's wrath against sin, but it was never enough to remove sin completely.

Jesus was a sacrifice because only His blood could roll backwards to the first sinner and forward to the last.

thanks for the explanation. i guess it's just one of those things you have to believe in order to understand, but then i don't understand the concept of original sin either....

[Mikayeel]

Truemuslim you can wake up in peace later to see that ur thread is going well loool:)

[mohsen1985]

You did what?

Prove that
1. Jesus is not God
2. Jesus is not God's son

[Keltoi]

Prove that
1. Jesus is not God
2. Jesus is not God's son

Yeah, well I guess we'll agree to disagree on what constitutes "proof". All you did was cite verses that don't include the verses upon which Christ's divinity is based.

[mohsen1985]

Yeah, well I guess we'll agree to disagree on what constitutes "proof". All you did was cite verses that don't include the verses upon which Christ's divinity is based.

If you read it more carefully, you'll understand my point. God cannot take the form of a human being. A human being has no such capacity. Can you fit the world into an eggshell? no because it doesn't have the capacity for it. . .

Another thing, how can God die? If he's divine how did he die? Isn't immortality a characteristic of being divine?

[Keltoi]

If you read it more carefully, you'll understand my point. God cannot take the form of a human being. A human being has no such capacity. Can you fit the world into an eggshell? no because it doesn't have the capacity for it. . .

Another thing, how can God die? If he's divine how did he die? Isn't immortality a characteristic of being divine?

God "cannot"..hmmm. We'll let that statement stand.

As has already been mentioned, Christ was Resurrected. He is indeed immortal.

[جوري]

Let's say it is unbefitting of his magistrate to take human form...

.. the nature of 'christ' borders more on magical thinking than an actual religion. It reduced him to a very low common denominator and it is entirely unnecessary, it makes him needy and God has no needs..
why not just do away with all of us in the blink of an eye and bring better people.. angel like people who worship around the clock..
how insignificant are we in the scheme of it all
here is our immediate glaxy

when lo and behold God decides to leave it all behind to show up in Nazareth!

wa sobhan Allah..

[------]

:salamext:

He is indeed immortal.

God and human cannot be the same thing! God is NECESSARY Being, Human beings are UNNECESSARY

[wilberhum]

Proof. Not this stupidly again.:uuh:

What is truly amazing is how many time I have seen Muslims proving the Bible is corrupted and now a True Muslim uses it as "Proof". :giggling:

[Trumble]

why not just do away with all of us in the blink of an eye and bring better people.. angel like people who worship around the clock..

That is a very, very good question. Do you have an answer?

when lo and behold God decides to leave it all behind to show up in Nazareth!

Surely, according to the usual description of Him, God could show up in Nazareth without leaving anything behind? In much the same way as He could spare time to send Gabriel to dictate the Qur'an, having an infinity of time at his disposal?

[جوري]

That is a very, very good question. Do you have an answer?

I do-- but it wouldn't be anything remotely as inscrutable and mystifying as something you'd have concluded on your way to woodstock...

Surely, according to the usual description of Him, God could show up in Nazareth without leaving anything behind? In much the same way as He could spare time to send Gabriel to dictate the Qur'an, having an infinity of time at his disposal?

I am not following what Gabriel (a servant/creation) of God following a command from God as does every last single cell in creation which functions seemingly on its 'own volition' has to do with God who in fact attributes time to himself? perhaps you can make that connection for me?

The question in the end remains, not whether he can take leave of absence from his universal duties for an x number of years so that all the orbs wouldn't collide on themselves and we collectively into some hideous mutants, rather of why would he reduce himself to such a low common denominator?
further, going dormant for an x number of years only to unleash his godliness on the small spot of (nazreth or beit laham) and then in a self-immolating moment decide that he should die, whilst asking himself as to why he had foresaken his own self or D A M N S a tree in the earth he created for not bearing fruits to assuage his human hunger-- A God dies, and voila wakes up three days later, in that neat package that guises itself under 'monotheism'!
Once you are able to reconcile the difference between everything in creation, and the creator can we find some common ground to debate on this thread-- it would also help your convictions some if you spoke of them as a christian!
cheers

[truemuslim]

Everyone is responsible for what they do, why should Jesus suffer for other people's actions?:uuh:

because the christians need to enjoy life murdering and all that sick stuff...
thats how THEY earn paradise

Truemuslim you can wake up in peace later to see that ur thread is going well loool:)

....:eek::offended: i wake up and 50 posts are on it..lol..no fights yet...:uuh: :okay: kk.

Proof. Not this stupidly again.:uuh:

What is truly amazing is how many time I have seen Muslims proving the Bible is corrupted and now a True Muslim uses it as "Proof". :giggling:

it is PROOF just some people dunt wanna admit it..

[wilberhum]

it is PROOF just some people dunt wanna admit it..

It isn't proof, but it is stupidly. :hmm:

I don't want to admit it? :giggling::giggling::giggling:
Da, that is even stupider. I don't think there is any logical basis for Jesus being god. But that is just a matter of belief for some and that does not include me.

Only an idiot would say I have a broken thermometer and it proves what the tempter is. :skeleton:

[------]

:salamext:

when lo and behold God decides to leave it all behind to show up in Nazareth!

LOL sis PA! :D

Only an idiot would say I have a broken thermometer and it proves what the tempter is.

Come again?

[mohsen1985]

Proof. Not this stupidly again.:uuh:

What is truly amazing is how many time I have seen Muslims proving the Bible is corrupted and now a True Muslim uses it as "Proof". :giggling:

I proved that Jesus is not God using the holy Qur'an. What do you have to say about that?

Simply deny it and say it doesn't mean anything?

[mohsen1985]

God "cannot"..hmmm. We'll let that statement stand.

As has already been mentioned, Christ was Resurrected. He is indeed immortal.

I didn't use the "cannot" correctly I guess.

A human being is needy, it's made up of parts, it's dependant on it's body parts. God is not made up of parts, he's not dependant on anything. The cannot refers to this point. A human being cannot be God.

Based on what you say: We will all be resurrected in the day of judgement. So were are all immortal therefore we are God.

[ummsara1108]

why do christians always end a prayer with (In Jesus Name) is it not God christians worship?

And when the religion is discussed it's always about Jesus, rarely do chirstians speak of God.

Is it not true to say the Torah was created first and the jewish people did not listen and were rejected, therefore came the Bible again the christians did not listen, and finaly came the Koran, and was created by the last and final prophet? Seeing that after all these years there has been no other religious book writen?

[Gator]

Seeing that after all these years there has been no other religious book writen?

Here's one. Book of Mormon.

http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/contents

thanks.

[ummsara1108]

who's the prophet of the Mormons?

[ummsara1108]

And I meant there were no other major religions, although I believe Mormon is a faith more than a religion. I mean it's obvious that there are hundreds even thousands of beliefs, but there are only a few major ones.

[ummsara1108]

mormons prophet is Joesph Smith?

[ummsara1108]

is he the faulse prophet the Bible speaks of?

[Gator]

Well, the first prophet is Mormon himself (prophet in the new world) who the book is about. The latter day prophets begin with Joseph Smith.

Thanks.

[Gator]

is he the faulse prophet the Bible speaks of?

Don't know.

[ummsara1108]

Well, the first prophet is Mormon himself (prophet in the new world) who the book is about. The latter day prophets begin with Joseph Smith.

Thanks.

well we all know he wasn't the first prophet, but perhaps your right he may have been the first prophet to the mormons

[truemuslim]

next day: 20 more posts ... um..... juss go ahead mods... the only threads i is able to make are in the puzzle/humor section or multimedia...hmp...



mods...

oh come on i kno u will do it sometime...

[wilberhum]

I proved that Jesus is not God using the holy Qur'an. What do you have to say about that?

Simply deny it and say it doesn't mean anything?

It it is illogical to use the unproven as proof. :uuh:
Your belief that the Quran is proof is nothing more that a belief.

[جوري]

'book of the mormon' is the bible revisited.. check it out for yourselves!
its 'prophet' just wanted a revival of christianity on the account they don't have enough sects !

cheers

[krypton6]

P1) If God wanted people with no sins, then we wouldn't have been given free will! [direct quote]

P2) God gave us free will. [do you disagree?]

C - God wants people with sin.

P1) - He wants us not to sin, but he does not want to force us not to sin, he wants us to chose for ourselves for if we want to sin or not.

P2) - God gave us free will to chose between the good and the bad.

C) - God does not want us to sin and he/it is in no way making or forcing us sin

[Gator]

Hello K6,
My post was just an example of how logic can lead to false conclusions based on the assumptions (in this case using their own words). But thank you for responding.

I should clarify, I don't endorse my post as a logical repudiation of a God. I probably should have made that clearer.

Thanks.

[krypton6]

I understand my friend.

[Whatsthepoint]

is he the faulse prophet the Bible speaks of?

The Bible speaks of false prophets, plural. According to Christians all prophets coming after Jesus, including Mohammad, are false.

[ummsara1108]

I've never heard of it used in the Plural term only as a singular.

[جوري]

The Bible speaks of false prophets, plural. According to Christians all prophets coming after Jesus, including Mohammad, are false.

The Ot and NT also speaks of

Song of Solomon 5:16

"HIKKOMAMITTAQIM VIKULLO MAHAMADDIM ZEHDUDIVEZEH RAAI BENUTS YARUSHALAM."

Haggai 2:7-9
And I will shake all nations, and the Himada of all the nations will come; and I will fill this house with glory, says the Lord of hosts. Mine is the silver, mine is the gold, says the Lord of hosts, the glory of my last house shall be greater than that of the first one, says the Lord of hosts; and in this place I will give Shalom, says the Lord of Hosts.

“And the Lord said unto me, they have well spoken that which they have spoken, I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.“ (Deuteronomy 18:17-18)

John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."



Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

3.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

peace!

[Amadeus85]

Purest, The Comforter is The Holy Spirit actually. There was a thread about this topic in this section as well.You can check.

[جوري]

Purest, The Comforter is The Holy Spirit actually. There was a thread about this topic in this section as well.You can check.

it isn't, and you have no way of turning Jesus's Aramaic and/or Greek into what you perceive it ought to be in English.. but I can respect that, that is what you believe!

cheers

[*Hana*]

PurestAmbrosia is absolutely correct in that the Comforter cannot be the Holy Spirit.

John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

The word "another" infers "new" or "different from". The Holy Spirit was already here so would not have been referred to as "another" and the verses do not say He will resend a previous comforter or prophet. The Jews were also looking for "another" prophet, different from those already sent.

Peace,
Hana

[truemuslim]

glad to see this thread is veeerrry peaceful.... anyway... u either take the PROOF or leave it... we give u a lot of proof and yet u regret it.. athiest... dunt believe anything but bad.. agnostics.. i dunt even care what they believe... jews..hmm...cristians...just flip the words around... muslims.. believe what they had since the beginning never changing a word cuz they dunt CARE bout being famous like all those other dudes... and they dunt make websites ONLY FOR MAKING FUN OF OTHER RELIGIONS... muslims say what allah said in the quran ' lakum deenukum waliyadeen....' back on topic...


P.S. Hana_Aku... i kno helen keller.. she is that one lady who is deaf and blind and yet did something.. i forget what it was.. i learned bout her in like the 3rd grade...

[Amadeus85]

PurestAmbrosia is absolutely correct in that the Comforter cannot be the Holy Spirit.

John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

The word "another" infers "new" or "different from". The Holy Spirit was already here so would not have been referred to as "another" and the verses do not say He will resend a previous comforter or prophet. The Jews were also looking for "another" prophet, different from those already sent.

Peace,
Hana

So muslim prophet Muhammed is immortal and he is with us forever?
The one from this verse is Hole Spirit who arrives 50 days later.

[جوري]

So muslim prophet Muhammed is immortal and he is with us forever?
The one from this verse is Hole Spirit who arrives 50 days later.

His message certainly will!
There was no allusion as to immortality!
one can just as easily ask.. how does a spirit testify of Jesus?
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me!

The conundrum in the process shall always remain though, you seem to perceive the holy spirit as a separate being here, yet on other posts collectively assert that they are all one.. So Jesus came in form of holy spirit, to tell me Mary that he shall impregnate her with himself, he then goes inside her to be formed and born like man.. then dies and tells people that he shall come back again in the form of the 'comforter' and speak and testify of himself?...

I'll leave it for folks to draw their own conclusions!

peace

[ummsara1108]

wow reading your post purest, i'm not a muslim but have learnd lots, that touched me, well put.

[wilberhum]

glad to see this thread is veeerrry peaceful.... anyway... u either take the PROOF or leave it... we give u a lot of proof and yet u regret it.. athiest... dunt believe anything but bad.. agnostics.. i dunt even care what they believe... jews..hmm...cristians...just flip the words around... muslims.. believe what they had since the beginning never changing a word cuz they dunt CARE bout being famous like all those other dudes... and they dunt make websites ONLY FOR MAKING FUN OF OTHER RELIGIONS... muslims say what allah said in the quran ' lakum deenukum waliyadeen....' back on topic...


P.S. Hana_Aku... i kno helen keller.. she is that one lady who is deaf and blind and yet did something.. i forget what it was.. i learned bout her in like the 3rd grade...

You give proof a bad name. :uuh:

[Keltoi]

The Holy Spirit is indeed the Comforter mentioned by Christ, any suggestion otherwise is baseless and without merit. The disciples and the other early church leaders knew very well what was meant by that statement, and it had nothing to do with a future "prophet".

[جوري]

that is your subjective opinion and you may certainly repeat it enough so that it is in concert with your beliefs.. the same way you peddle three gods as one!

peace!

[Keltoi]

that is your subjective opinion and you may certainly repeat it enough so that it is in concert with your beliefs.. the same way you peddle three gods as one!

peace!

Interesting how quickly some Muslims will latch on to a particular verse in the Bible because it agrees with something they wish to believe...then conveniently consider everything else "corrupted". Interesting logic there.

[جوري]

Interesting how quickly some Muslims will latch on to a particular verse in the Bible because it agrees with something they wish to believe...then conveniently consider everything else "corrupted". Interesting logic there.

I have an Aramaic/Arabic bible here which has positively nothing to do with the king James version you use in your hotels.. It is quite a conundrum to me how Jesus evolved from an impoverished middle eastern messenger with a simple equest to worship the one God, to this self-aggrandizing WASP westerners want him to be.. is it any wonder that here I come from a coptic/Jewish ancestry that has in its majority converted to Islam with the exception of one great aunt who remained a Jew though she still married a Muslim?

It makes perfect sense to us middle easterners what it is that Jesus (p) said and meant using the original bible.. those who want to keep their baggage and delusions may certainly do so, perhaps if a fool persists in his folly he'll become a wise man!


cheers

[truemuslim]

You give proof a bad name. :uuh:

wow...


now what in the HELL (because u seem to kno alot about that place) do U think proof means?? bringing god and making him do whatever U want until u believe in him??? or us praying allah to come over to earth and show himself to u?? ... hmm... u must really ask for alot then....

umm... u might get to meet him...betta get ur answers ready... :w:

[guyabano]

I proved that Jesus is not God using the holy Qur'an. What do you have to say about that?

Hello,

for people, who don't believe in the Quaran, these words have no value.
I'm sorry for that.

Peace

[*Hana*]

The Holy Spirit is indeed the Comforter mentioned by Christ, any suggestion otherwise is baseless and without merit. The disciples and the other early church leaders knew very well what was meant by that statement, and it had nothing to do with a future "prophet".

Based on what? How did they know the "other" comforter would mean resending a previous one?

When did the Holy Spirit come and testify of Jesus?

If you could provide those verses I would appreciate it, as I don't recall ever reading them.

Thanks!

Hana

[Keltoi]

I have an Aramaic/Arabic bible here which has positively nothing to do with the king James version you use in your hotels.. It is quite a conundrum to me how Jesus evolved from an impoverished middle eastern messenger with a simple equest to worship the one God, to this self-aggrandizing WASP westerners want him to be.. is it any wonder that here I come from a coptic/Jewish ancestry that has in its majority converted to Islam with the exception of one great aunt who remained a Jew though she still married a Muslim?

It makes perfect sense to us middle easterners what it is that Jesus (p) said and meant using the original bible.. those who want to keep their baggage and delusions may certainly do so, perhaps if a fool persists in his folly he'll become a wise man!


cheers

I don't use the King James, too many "thee's" and "thou's"

As for the rest of it, it was a long way of saying absolutely nothing. No offense.

[Keltoi]

Based on what? How did they know the "other" comforter would mean resending a previous one?

When did the Holy Spirit come and testify of Jesus?

If you could provide those verses I would appreciate it, as I don't recall ever reading them.

Thanks!

Hana

(Luke 3:21-22 NASB) Now it came about when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also was baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased.

(John 14:26 NASB) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Mark 13:11 NASB) And when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.

(1 Cor 6:19 NASB) Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

(Eph 1:13 NASB) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.


These are only a few of the verses that deal with the Holy Spirit. In was in this context that the disciples understood what Christ was referring to when He spoke of the "Comforter" who will be with them.

[YusufNoor]

(Luke 3:21-22 NASB) Now it came about when all the people were baptized, that Jesus also was baptized, and while He was praying, heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, "Thou art My beloved Son, in Thee I am well-pleased.

(John 14:26 NASB) But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Mark 13:11 NASB) And when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.

(1 Cor 6:19 NASB) Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

(Eph 1:13 NASB) In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.


These are only a few of the verses that deal with the Holy Spirit. In was in this context that the disciples understood what Christ was referring to when He spoke of the "Comforter" who will be with them.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greeting Keltoi,

your post raises the following question(s):

just how many "Holy Spirits" are there?

you have the one speaking at Jesus' baptism,and another telling him what to say when arrested and YET ANOTHER promised to come?

from a non Christian view that seems like more than one!

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I have an Aramaic/Arabic bible here which has positively nothing to do with the king James version you use in your hotels.. It is quite a conundrum to me how Jesus evolved from an impoverished middle eastern messenger with a simple equest to worship the one God, to this self-aggrandizing WASP westerners want him to be.. is it any wonder that here I come from a coptic/Jewish ancestry that has in its majority converted to Islam with the exception of one great aunt who remained a Jew though she still married a Muslim?

Assalamu Alaykum Sister,

i just read an interesting view last night that says that the word in question Periklytos is NOT a Greek word but a Greek corruption of an Aramaic word. is this something you can determine?

here's the Article:

http://answering-islam.com/aramaic_bible.htm

i was hopping around and haven't read the complete website, so i hope there is nothing offensive to Islam on there!

Originally Posted by mohsen1985
I proved that Jesus is not God using the holy Qur'an. What do you have to say about that?

Aye, for a Muslim, that's the BEST proof!

Originally Posted by Keltoi
Interesting how quickly some Muslims will latch on to a particular verse in the Bible because it agrees with something they wish to believe...then conveniently consider everything else "corrupted". Interesting logic there.

somthing similar to your above post, eh?

:sl:

[Amadeus85]

The Holy Spirit is indeed the Comforter mentioned by Christ, any suggestion otherwise is baseless and without merit. The disciples and the other early church leaders knew very well what was meant by that statement, and it had nothing to do with a future "prophet".

Here are others proofs which show that these verses tell about Spirit not a human being (for example Muhammed).

"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Comforter, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you."

"You know him"- and did Jesus disciples know Muhammed ? No.
"He dwells in you, and will be in you". How can Muhammed be in them and dwells with them?
This cannot be said about human being such as Muhammed.
Muslims just take the verse out of context.

[mohsen1985]

It it is illogical to use the unproven as proof. :uuh:
Your belief that the Quran is proof is nothing more that a belief.

Not really, it's a proven fact, I just stated some of the basic/common facts. You can see the proofs in any Islamic studies book.

[mohsen1985]

Hello,

for people, who don't believe in the Quaran, these words have no value.
I'm sorry for that.

Peace

Well, as I recall someone said we can't use the Bible to prove this, because we say it's corrupted, so I used the holy Qur'an. I can make a more detailed post about the proofs of the Qur'an being God's words and that it hasn't been corrupted. It's not a matter of believing, it's comparing the facts and making a decision about it.

[Keltoi]

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greeting Keltoi,

your post raises the following question(s):

just how many "Holy Spirits" are there?

you have the one speaking at Jesus' baptism,and another telling him what to say when arrested and YET ANOTHER promised to come?

from a non Christian view that seems like more than one!



Assalamu Alaykum Sister,

i just read an interesting view last night that says that the word in question Periklytos is NOT a Greek word but a Greek corruption of an Aramaic word. is this something you can determine?

here's the Article:

http://answering-islam.com/aramaic_bible.htm

i was hopping around and haven't read the complete website, so i hope there is nothing offensive to Islam on there!



Aye, for a Muslim, that's the BEST proof!



somthing similar to your above post, eh?

:sl:

I don't see how you come away with the idea that those verse point to more than one Holy Spirit...they are speaking about the one and only Spirit of God. What Christ was addressing was the idea that His leaving would dishearten His disciples, which is why He reminded them of the Holy Spirit which would always be with them.

As for the language of these verses, they were all written in Greek. As to whether that particular word was a corruption of an Aramaic word...I have my doubts, as Greek was the language of the NT and generally the language of writing during this time period.

[*Hana*]

(Luke 3:21-22 NASB)

(John 14:26 NASB)

Mark 13:11 NASB)

(1 Cor 6:19 NASB)

(Eph 1:13 NASB)

These are only a few of the verses that deal with the Holy Spirit. In was in this context that the disciples understood what Christ was referring to when He spoke of the "Comforter" who will be with them.

Peace Keltoi:

Thanks for that! I'm at work right now so I'll look them up when I get home and read them in more detail.

Peace,
Hana

[truemuslim]

we proved jesus isnt god using BOTH books

[جوري]

I don't use the King James, too many "thee's" and "thou's"

As for the rest of it, it was a long way of saying absolutely nothing. No offense.

How can I be offended by someone so confused?
cheers

[IntroC]

All the proof you need!!!!LINK REMOVED PROMOTES A RELIGION OTHER THAN ISLAM

[جوري]

whaooooooo that was convincing
if you can contribute by way of 'proof' please do so, this site isn't for promoting your religion..

cheers

[Whatsthepoint]

All the proof you need!!!!http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/jesus-is-god.htm

I think the signature of the poster above you says it all...

[*Hana*]

(Luke 3:21-22 NASB)

(John 14:26 NASB)

Mark 13:11 NASB)

(1 Cor 6:19 NASB)

(Eph 1:13 NASB)

These are only a few of the verses that deal with the Holy Spirit. In was in this context that the disciples understood what Christ was referring to when He spoke of the "Comforter" who will be with them.

Peace Keltoi:

(Luke 3:21-22 NASB)

I guess the first problem I would have with this verse is the fact it came BEFORE Jesus said, “…for if I do not go, he will not come unto you…”

(John 14:26 NASB)

In John 14, Jesus tells us that the comforter will come and teach us all things and will remind us of the teachings of Jesus.

The Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest codex of the bible, does not translate Paraklaytos pneuma to “Holy Ghost” or “Holy Spirit”. It translates it as “The comforter, the spirit”. This, in no way, can be taken to be divine. The word “holy” had been added later.

Jesus said he would send ANOTHER comforter….who was the first? In 1 John 2:1, it uses the word “advocate” to describe Jesus, however, in Greek, the word is Paraklaytos. So, Jesus has to be the first comforter and he’s sending another, which means a never before sent, comforter and he will be with us forever, (meaning his teachings).

This cannot be referring to the Holy Spirt.

Mark 13:11 NASB)

This verse, in English, only refers to the Holy Ghost and in no way implies a new comforter is speaking. So, I’m not really sure why you have included this verse as “proof” this is the Comforter.

(1 Cor 6:19 NASB) (Eph 1:13 NASB)

Jesus, did not teach this. These are the words of Paul who was never taught by Jesus. Still, this doesn’t say anything about the Holy Ghost being the new comforter.

There was an early Christian sect known as Montanists, (around 150 AD). They got their name from their founder Montanus. This group was rejected for many reasons, but one was because he not only claimed to receive revelation directly from the Holy Ghost, but also claimed to be the paraclete (comforter) from the Gospel of John.

Early Christians understood the Holy Ghost/Spirit and Comforter to be 2 different entities…not one and the same.

So, that being said (typed), anything I note here isn't going to change your understanding and belief, so if nothing else, I hope it gives you some insight as to how we look at these verses and why we can't accept the Holy Ghost/Spirit as being the Comforter promised by Jesus, pbuh.

Peace,
Hana

[snakelegs]

[QUOTE=IntroC;902572]All the proof you need!!!!LINK REMOVED PROMOTES A RELIGION OTHER THAN ISLAM
aha! now i know jesus is god! and all along i thought God was one!
thanks for clearning up my maths. :D

[truemuslim]

^^^ god IS one.. bible has proof that jesus ISNT god and IS god.. so its all a lie.. bible is a lie they cant make up there minds

[Keltoi]

Peace Keltoi:

(Luke 3:21-22 NASB)

I guess the first problem I would have with this verse is the fact it came BEFORE Jesus said, “…for if I do not go, he will not come unto you…”

(John 14:26 NASB)

In John 14, Jesus tells us that the comforter will come and teach us all things and will remind us of the teachings of Jesus.

The Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest codex of the bible, does not translate Paraklaytos pneuma to “Holy Ghost” or “Holy Spirit”. It translates it as “The comforter, the spirit”. This, in no way, can be taken to be divine. The word “holy” had been added later.

Jesus said he would send ANOTHER comforter….who was the first? In 1 John 2:1, it uses the word “advocate” to describe Jesus, however, in Greek, the word is Paraklaytos. So, Jesus has to be the first comforter and he’s sending another, which means a never before sent, comforter and he will be with us forever, (meaning his teachings).

This cannot be referring to the Holy Spirt.

Mark 13:11 NASB)

This verse, in English, only refers to the Holy Ghost and in no way implies a new comforter is speaking. So, I’m not really sure why you have included this verse as “proof” this is the Comforter.

(1 Cor 6:19 NASB) (Eph 1:13 NASB)

Jesus, did not teach this. These are the words of Paul who was never taught by Jesus. Still, this doesn’t say anything about the Holy Ghost being the new comforter.

There was an early Christian sect known as Montanists, (around 150 AD). They got their name from their founder Montanus. This group was rejected for many reasons, but one was because he not only claimed to receive revelation directly from the Holy Ghost, but also claimed to be the paraclete (comforter) from the Gospel of John.

Early Christians understood the Holy Ghost/Spirit and Comforter to be 2 different entities…not one and the same.

So, that being said (typed), anything I note here isn't going to change your understanding and belief, so if nothing else, I hope it gives you some insight as to how we look at these verses and why we can't accept the Holy Ghost/Spirit as being the Comforter promised by Jesus, pbuh.

Peace,
Hana

Early Christians did not see the Holy Spirit and the Comforter to be two different entities at all, and I'm a little confused as to how you came to that conclusion in the first place.

I also find it odd that you ignore the most telling part of the passage many Muslims wish to believe refers to Muhammed...

John 14:16 —" And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth". Muhammed wasn't alive until 500 years later..how could Muhammed be with the disciples when he wasn't even born?

John 14:17 — "But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you". Another obvious problem for those who wish to believe this verse is in reference to Muhammed. Not to mention the fact that Muhammed cannot dwell inside of them...what can? A Spirit..namely the Holy Spirit.

John 14:26 — But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." Another issue here...Muhammed never taught the disciples anything, and most certainly did not remind them of what Christ said.

and finally...

John 16:14 — He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you." There is that pesky little word again...SPIRIT

Jesus is speaking to His disciples knowing it was near the end of their time together. These verses are directed to the disciples and they are about the disciples, not some future "prophet"...

[snakelegs]

^^^ god IS one.. bible has proof that jesus ISNT god and IS god.. so its all a lie.. bible is a lie they cant make up there minds

you can't honestly expect a christian to agree that jesus is not God!
their religion is based on it.

[Keltoi]

you can't honestly expect a christian to agree that jesus is not God!
their religion is based on it.

I don't know...that post was so convincing my faith was almost shattered...:D

*sarcasm of course*

[جوري]

John 14:16 —" And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth". Muhammed wasn't alive until 500 years later..how could Muhammed be with the disciples when he wasn't even born?

I am curious as to how the holy spirit was a comforter? further how is he 'another' when you claim that the 'holy spirit' is one and the same with God who is also Jesus? was God confused at to his three parts, and preferred to play hide and seek?

John 14:17 — "But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you". Another obvious problem for those who wish to believe this verse is in reference to Muhammed. Not to mention the fact that Muhammed cannot dwell inside of them...what can? A Spirit..namely the Holy Spirit.

'Periclytos' the Greek word for 'advocate' or 'friend' not a 'spirit' and his message is indeed living with us still, and shall forever insha'Allah!

John 14:26 — But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." Another issue here...Muhammed never taught the disciples anything, and most certainly did not remind them of what Christ said.

lol.. and what did the 'holy spirit' teach them? Do you always reflect on the literal or only when suitable for a moot point? Did the holy spirit meet up with the disciples and speak to them of Jesus?

and finally...

John 16:14 — He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you." There is that pesky little word again...SPIRIT

interesting, that is if Periclytos actually denoted 'spirit' which doesn't!

Jesus is speaking to His disciples knowing it was near the end of their time together. These verses are directed to the disciples and they are about the disciples, not some future "prophet"...

So you admit that christianity was only meant for the disciples? I am glad you wrote that, and I agree.. Jesus was only sent for the lost sheep of bani Israel not for man-kind!

cheers

[جوري]

you can't honestly expect a christian to agree that jesus is not God!
their religion is based on it.

I have personally no problems if they think Jesus is God, or 'Holy spirit' is God, or the pope or Mary or whomever, I just expect that they admit that, such a conclusion has positively nothing to do with Monotheism!


peace

[Amadeus85]

I have personally no problems if they think Jesus is God, or 'Holy spirit' is God, or the pope or Mary or whomever, I just expect that they admit that, such a conclusion has positively nothing to do with Monotheism!


peace

Christians believed in one God hundred years before Muahmmed was born and before islam was created. Thats my opinion. Peace.

[snakelegs]

I have personally no problems if they think Jesus is God, or 'Holy spirit' is God, or the pope or Mary or whomever, I just expect that they admit that, such a conclusion has positively nothing to do with Monotheism!


peace

this too, they will never agree to. they are very advanced in higher maths!

[جوري]

this too, they will never agree to. they are very advanced in higher maths!

gotcha--:X

[Keltoi]

I am curious as to how the holy spirit was a comforter? further how is he 'another' when you claim that the 'holy spirit' is one and the same with God who is also Jesus? was God confused at to his three parts, and preferred to play hide and seek?



'Periclytos' the Greek word for 'advocate' or 'friend' not a 'spirit' and his message is indeed living with us still, and shall forever insha'Allah!


lol.. and what did the 'holy spirit' teach them? Do you always reflect on the literal or only when suitable for a moot point? Did the holy spirit meet up with the disciples and speak to them of Jesus?


interesting, that is if Periclytos actually denoted 'spirit' which doesn't!


So you admit that christianity was only meant for the disciples? I am glad you wrote that, and I agree.. Jesus was only sent for the lost sheep of bani Israel not for man-kind!

cheers

Here we go again. I have to assume this is a serious reading comprehension issue or ignorance truly is bliss.


1. How was the Holy Spirit a Comforter? Because the Holy Spirit would indwell within them, guide them, and be a reminder of Christ's words to them. The verses I cited earlier spell that out fairly clearly.

2. Christ referred to "another" because His time with the disciples was nearly up. "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." John 14:18 Yes, sometimes you have to read a little bit further to understand things...:D

3. Parakletos: an intercessor, counselor, advocate, comforter. What Christ is speaking of is a change in roles. No longer will Christ be among them in the flesh, but He will remain with them in Spirit. If you really wish to dwell over the Greek translation, the Greek word used here(another) is actually allos and not heteros....allos in this context would mean another of equal quality, and not heteros, which means of different quality. Christ was speaking of an entity equal to Himself, thereby God.

4. What did the Holy Spirit teach? As Christ Himself states, the Holy Spirit will remind them of all He has said, as the Spirit will dwell within them. "Dwell within" being the key phrase there.

5. Do I admit that Christianity was only meant for the disciples? Is this another example of bad reading comprehension or just self-imposed ignorance? I stated that in these verses Christ is speaking to and about His disciples. He wasn't making some cryptic prophecy concerning some future prophet.

[جوري]

Here we go again. I have to assume this is a serious reading comprehension issue or ignorance truly is bliss.

perhaps a dash of both, but from your end? :sunny:

1. How was the Holy Spirit a Comforter? Because the Holy Spirit would indwell within them, guide them, and be a reminder of Christ's words to them. The verses I cited earlier spell that out fairly clearly.

A great job the holy spirit did, considering you have no two bibles that are actually true to what Jesus taught!

2. Christ referred to "another" because His time with the disciples was nearly up. "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." John 14:18 Yes, sometimes you have to read a little bit further to understand things...:D

Further reading doesn't begin to address the flaws that lie therein...Seems like a God with many identity crisis?

3. Parakletos: an intercessor, counselor, advocate, comforter. What Christ is speaking of is a change in roles. No longer will Christ be among them in the flesh, but He will remain with them in Spirit. If you really wish to dwell over the Greek translation, the Greek word used here(another) is actually allos and not heteros....allos in this context would mean another of equal quality, and not heteros, which means of different quality. Christ was speaking of an entity equal to Himself, thereby God.

or 'another' like him as in a humble 'man' not a God or a spirit. ahhhhhhhhhhhh :eek:

4. What did the Holy Spirit teach? As Christ Himself states, the Holy Spirit will remind them of all He has said, as the Spirit will dwell within them. "Dwell within" being the key phrase there.

so we should ignore teach?

5. Do I admit that Christianity was only meant for the disciples? Is this another example of bad reading comprehension or just self-imposed ignorance? I stated that in these verses Christ is speaking to and about His disciples. He wasn't making some cryptic prophecy concerning some future prophet.

Again, I'll go for both, but from your end..

cheers

[InToTheRain]

Proof "FOR ME" that He(AS) wasn't God:

1) He never claimed to be God (I'm talking about the Red Letters)

2) You can't be God and Man AKA Mangod at the same time! if you change a clay which is spherical to a sqaure, You can't claim that sqaure is still "Round" hence he was either a man or God! Decide!

If you claim he was God when he came down, it means he GOD DIED! DIEEED I TELL YOU DIEED. And both christians and Muslims agree that's impossible, therefore he was a MAN!

3) The whole "kill a sinless man for the crime of mankind" is just too unjust. I don't see why a sinless man has to pay for rest of mankinds SIN!

4) As we all know (well the Muslims anyway :ooh:) the Bible wasn't preserved, it was made some 300 years later after the death of Jesus(AS). The Bible was never it the hands of the People, it was always in the hands of the Church. It was also written in a dead Language (Aramaic/Greek?) unlike Arabic hence the preservation decreased. Therefore there are MASS errors in it! Even the Bible itself says in Chapter 8 verse 8 of the book of Jeremiah that there Scribes who wrote it made it into a LIE:


8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. 9 The wise men shall be put to shame, they shall be dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD, and what wisdom is in them? "

5) The manner and language they used were such that they would call God Father. Now if you are going to follow it literally then why don't the christians also call themselves Sons of God? That's what Jesus called them according to this verse:

Blessed are the peace makers they are called sons of God (Mathew 5:19)

And I believe SisterAmbrosia touched on the rest already.

[Mikayeel]

why would god take the form of a human? Humans eat and ''poo'' very not god like characteristics wouldnt you agree? if god wanted to come down in a form that we can see then surely it wouldnt be a human?? it would be something much higher than that!! and something much more perfect...
why did jesus eat? Why did he use the bathroom?(we as humans are ashamed of that, thats why we do our business in a private area) if he was god than surely he woudnt need doing all this..?

wa allahu a3lam

salam

[جوري]

God couldn't relate to the humans he created so in a sacrificial moment decided to take the human plunge, but also wanted to be a ghost/spirit so he can do an annunciation of himself... in the process taking a rest and a break from the cosmos and the creation to be an infant, suckle, eat, know of a loving mother, d a m n trees that didn't brear fruit in the earth he created and then die so he can absolve us ingrates from our sins, and so long as you accept that you'll have a carte blanche to all the sins you can indulge in.. just so long as you don't listen to 'false prophets' that ask you to worship the one God!

:w:

[YusufNoor]

I don't see how you come away with the idea that those verse point to more than one Holy Spirit...they are speaking about the one and only Spirit of God. What Christ was addressing was the idea that His leaving would dishearten His disciples, which is why He reminded them of the Holy Spirit which would always be with them.

John 14:16 —" And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth".

there are plenty of references to the Holy Spirit assisting Jesus before he left, ERGO ANOTHER HOLY SPIRIT would have to be sent to fulfill the verse


As for the language of these verses, they were all written in Greek. As to whether that particular word was a corruption of an Aramaic word...I have my doubts, as Greek was the language of the NT and generally the language of writing during this time period.

aye, but the New Testament wasn't put together until 3 Centuries AFTER Jesus was here! BUT even if they were written in Martian, we would still look back to see what words Jesus ACTUALLY SPOKE!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance!

Greeting Keltoi,

let's look at this:

And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth

IF the Holy Spirit, ONE THIRD of God(!!) were here "teaching and dwelling" within Christians, would we not be able to find the ORIGINAL church that TWO THIRDS of God started?????? you would be Catholic IF that were true! are you Catholic? or are you a Protestant? wouldn't that make you a protester of the "Holy Spirit?"

unless your version of the Holy Spirit left, which would disprove the whole "forever" thing!

btw, what's the Holy Spirits name?

:w:

[Muslim Woman]

salaam/peace;

PurestAmbrosia : I have personally no problems if they think Jesus is God, or 'Holy spirit' is God, or the pope or Mary or whomever, I just expect that they admit that, such a conclusion has positively nothing to do with Monotheism!

this too, they will never agree to. they are very advanced in higher maths!

lol :giggling:

[Omari]

But jesus christ never claimed divinity, the verses in the bible are mistranslated into english, or are changed by the people to make it look as if he did. OR he was misunderstood by his followers.

The concept of Jesus Christ is very clear in Islam, he was raised BODILY to the heavens and somone else was replaced to be cruicified.

Peace, Omari

[truemuslim]

why would god take the form of a human? Humans eat and ''poo'' very not god like characteristics wouldnt you agree? if god wanted to come down in a form that we can see then surely it wouldnt be a human?? it would be something much higher than that!! and something much more perfect...
why did jesus eat? Why did he use the bathroom?(we as humans are ashamed of that, thats why we do our business in a private area) if he was god than surely he woudnt need doing all this..?

wa allahu a3lam

salam

lol verry good point... but we all kno they are gonna regret it all... even if god came down with all the angels they prolly still wouldnt believe it.. if they did they would bring a NEW book and write all about it...then mix the words up a bit..

[Omari]

lol verry good point... but we all kno they are gonna regret it all... even if god came down with all the angels they prolly still wouldnt believe it.. if they did they would bring a NEW book and write all about it...then mix the words up a bit..

LOL,
how true

Salam
Omari

[truemuslim]

^^^ hey watch this a minute later with a bunch of athest and christys and agnostic pplz fighting bout this...

"its all lies"
"where is ur proof?"
"jesus is god no matter what"
"im too busy making my site...i dunt have time for this!! here is my site quraniswrong.net.hell.com "

[Omari]

LOL. i am so ready for it :)

[truemuslim]

LOOOLLL bro.. ok debater... enjoy..and ignore everything not worth it.. lol... here they come...any sec now...

alrighty then...
i be back tomorow... there isl ike 100 posts right now... i be back and there is gonna be llike 200...i isnt kiddin...byebye ..and :w:

[Keltoi]

Honestly I've had enough with this thread. I made the mistake of getting involved because I saw such atrocious misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Scripture. So as always we're back to square one...Christians have their faith and Muslims have theirs.

[Omari]

Honestly I've had enough with this thread. I made the mistake of getting involved because I saw such atrocious misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Scripture. So as always we're back to square one...Christians have their faith and Muslims have theirs.

The point isn't exactly to prove anything. Atleast not to me, when I get involved in these debates I WANT to learn more, about christianity, about islam, about all the religions. So being back to square one...isn't a problemo :)

Omari

[Intisar]

I don't think that's correct. God already knew the human condition as he is the creator and all. Didn't he come down as more of an example and offer a way for mankind to redeem their sins?

Hopefully one of the Christians will set us straight on this.

I was understand the impression that he was crucified for humanities sins.

Why would God need to do such a thing for his creations? Wouldn't he already know our capabilities and what road we're headed in? What would come out of God coming in the form of one of his OWN creations to understand us? God is omnipotent, that means he's above us and therefore made everything (nothing was made without his knowledge) in different proportions. What would God get out of taking on humanities sins? What would be the point in heaven or hell? Aren't we already sinless?

[truemuslim]

Honestly I've had enough with this thread. I made the mistake of getting involved because I saw such atrocious misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Scripture. So as always we're back to square one...Christians have their faith and Muslims have theirs.

ok bye.. no one told u to come.. u wanna see the proof u saw it (i think) and if u dont then leave... like seriously are u even typing in a language right there??
I made this thread to proof that christianity is not true, jesus is not god... why would u worship jesus wen u say that he is the son of god?? y dont u worship the god?? jesuus is a prophetnot a god...there sadly is proof FROM THE BIBLE that he is not god and its all in the links i gave u... but noooo..some ppl dont wanna admit that its not the true religion...i kno y.. because u wanna kep doing all that sick stuff until u die even if u knew the trrue religion .. (sorry bout the double letters in all thesee i is freeeeezin ...just woke up..and i gotta class in like 3 minute...online of course...so let me continue then im out) if you really went the right way u would be a muslim right now.. there isnt anything to prove wrong about islam unless its at the website ihatequran.hell.com... k? k... anyway i omari is right ppl come here to GAIN knowledge and they WANT to... u come here to gain knowledge but not gain it all...(islam)...and u act like u was forced here...hehe :thumbs_do

:okay: bye
:w:

p.s.dang my teacher is gonna be mad now...nah im kiddin theres like 60 students. hehe

[wilberhum]

I was understand the impression that he was crucified for humanities sins.

Why would God need to do such a thing for his creations? Wouldn't he already know our capabilities and what road we're headed in? What would come out of God coming in the form of one of his OWN creations to understand us? God is omnipotent, that means he's above us and therefore made everything (nothing was made without his knowledge) in different proportions. What would God get out of taking on humanities sins? What would be the point in heaven or hell? Aren't we already sinless?

I fully agree with you. None of the "Jesus = God" stuff makes any sense. It is all illogical.

My whole kick with this thread is that our opinions are not proof. Keltoi opinion is not proof either. To call it "100% proof" is an insult to intelligence.

Further more, IMHO, the author insults her own intelligence when she uses, what she considers a corrupted document, as proof.

Keltoi said it quite well.

I made the mistake of getting involved because I saw such atrocious misunderstanding and misrepresentation of Scripture. So as always we're back to square one...Christians have their faith and Muslims have theirs.

Too bad people can not accept that it is all about faith and stop feeling the need to insult those that believe different than they do.

[truemuslim]

I fully agree with you. None of the "Jesus = God" stuff makes any sense. It is all illogical.

My whole kick with this thread is that our opinions are not proof. Keltoi opinion is not proof either. To call it "100% proof" is an insult to intelligence.

Further more, IMHO, the author insults her own intelligence when she uses, what she considers a corrupted document, as proof.

Keltoi said it quite well.


Too bad people can not accept that it is all about faith and stop feeling the need to insult those that believe different than they do.

i think u should review your self first



actually yes it defidently is proof some people are just too stubborn to realize that tho..like u. if you aint a christian than why will you come here and defend them by saying my PROOF is not proof???????????!!!!! its defidently proof

[Mikayeel]

its like saying, if my dad kills some one.... i got to take blame for his action?? That doesnt sound right does it..?

[wilberhum]

i think u should review your self first



actually yes it defidently is proof some people are just too stubborn to realize that tho..like u. if you aint a christian than why will you come here and defend them by saying my PROOF is not proof???????????!!!!! its defidently proof

Again, you give proof a bad name. :uuh:

[truemuslim]

^^^ you give life a bad name...yea hamada thats exactly what i thought...

what do u expect proof to be??? allah coming down???and givving you WHATEVER you want until u believe..you wanna believe or not your choice no one is going to go give you whatever you want until you believe it... i want to see allah... i wanna see how he made the moon..the earth..me!! my mom...ok he showed me now let me see the angels..NOW!!! fine i wont be a muslim i just stay this agnotic...and make fun of other things then say ppl make fun of other thing and i dont...

too bad wilbrhum..it aint gonna happen...take it or leave it.. lakum deenukum waliya deen

[wilberhum]

^^^ you give life a bad name...

Is that an opinion or do you have proof? :giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling: :giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling: :giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling:

[truemuslim]

proof... i dunt wanna live knowing ur still in the world... oh and what u said iisnt even funny.. plus where ur proof my proof is wrong??????? ....anyway... u kill the threads when u come.. (no offence )

now lets get back on topic

[wilberhum]

proof... i dunt wanna live knowing ur still in the world... oh and what u said iisnt even funny.. plus where ur proof my proof is wrong??????? ....anyway... u kill the threads when u come.. (no offence )

now lets get back on topic

Wow,"i dunt wanna live knowing ur still in the world" sounds like a physical threat.

[mohsen1985]

Let's forget the Bible, Qur'an, religion, and everything else . . .

Answer me this . . .
.
.
.
IF Jesus is in fact "God", and he came down to earth to save mankind . . .
.
.
.
Why did he come as a baby? Why didn't "God" come right down to earth as a man?
.
.
.
As a baby he was very vulnerable, at least as a grown man he could have protected himself . . . :confused:

[truemuslim]

^^^ u ahve GOT to be kiddin me... u kno im gonna leave now... KNOWING UR IN LI RIGHT NOW>.... ( this is one of those days i leave LI angry...) now im shivering from anger knowing how DUMB u r...

i dont need to waste time here i gonna go see if i got homework..if not.. i gonna do something else..like other school stuff..or seeing hamada's PEACEFUL thread of most dangerous animals...please dont go there...

[wilberhum]

^^^ u ahve GOT to be kiddin me... u kno im gonna leave now... KNOWING UR IN LI RIGHT NOW>.... ( this is one of those days i leave LI angry...) now im shivering from anger knowing how DUMB u r...

i dont need to waste time here i gonna go see if i got homework..if not.. i gonna do something else..like other school stuff..or seeing hamada's PEACEFUL thread of most dangerous animals...please dont go there...

For additional "Homework", why don't you look up the definition of "Proof". :D


It is way past time for the "Delete Squad" to come in.

[truemuslim]

^^^ nah they aint comin cuz this thread is proof of jesus not being god if u cant stand the truth then leave this thread.. u seem to know nothing bout proof

yes mohsen those are the questions they really need to answer...try to answer

[truemuslim]

...question...why do u CHRISTIANS (meaning NOT wilberhum) worship jesus and not god?? and how would 'god' come in a human form and actually be BORN and be a baby and live like normal ppl then grow up say things and u think he said he is god?? if he is god he couldve saved HIMSELF from the death on the cross, not let himself suffer on it...after all isnt he god? son of god..watever... he can do anything..

[john316]

OBJECTION #1. Jn. 14:28 reads, "... my Father is greater than I." If Jesus is equal to the Father, as the Trinity definition states, then why did Jesus say His Father was "greater" than He?

ANSWER: Jesus spoke these words after He humbled Himself and became a servant (Phil. 2:5-8). Furthermore, the word "greater" refers to OFFICE or POSITION and not NATURE! God is God because of His "NATURE" (Gal. 4:8). Jesus is saying in Jn. 14:28 that His Father has a "greater" OFFICE or POSITION than He does. This is how the word "greater" is used as clearly seen in Gen 41:40. That verse reads, "You [Joseph] shall be in charge of my palace, and all my people are to submit to your orders. Only with respect to the throne will I [Pharaoh] be GREATER than you," (NIV). Pharaoh was "greater" than Joseph only by OFFICE or POSITION, but not NATURE. The nature of Pharaoh and Joseph was the same, that is, human being. Similarly, the president of the USA is GREATER than we are, as far as OFFICE or POSITION is concerned, but certainly not by NATURE!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OBJECTION #2. 1 Cor. 11:3 reads, "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." If Christ has a "head," then He can't be God.

ANSWER: Does this show Jesus inferior to the Father by NATURE? If one will insist that it does, then to be consistent, he would have to say the same regarding the woman to the man! Though a wife is subject to her husband in the Lord, she is NOT inferior to him by nature. The same is true with the relationship between the Lord Jesus and the Father.



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OBJECTION #3. 1 Cor. 15:28 says, "And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." If Jesus is "subject" to the Father, He can't be God.

ANSWER: Again, this argument is similar to Arguments #1 and #2. This verse doesn't refer to NATURE either, but only to OFFICE or POSITION! In Lk. 2:51, the SAME GREEK WORD translated "subject" is found. No one would say that Jesus was inferior BY NATURE to Joseph and Mary from Lk. 2:51, which would be the natural conclusion if the word "subject" refers to NATURE! Likewise, Jesus is NOT inferior BY NATURE to the Father, since He is God. See Jn. 1:1, Greek; Jn. 20:28; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1 and 1 Jn. 5:20.



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OBJECTION #4. Mk. 13:32 declares, "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." If Jesus was God, then He would have had this knowledge.

ANSWER: Again, we must bear in mind that Jesus is true man besides true God. The Lord Jesus spoke these words when He was limited by His humanity and was relying upon the Father entirely (Acts 10:38; Jn. 12:49). After His resurrection, however, Jesus would have to be all-knowing, since He can be prayed to (Jn. 14:14, Greek; Acts 7:59; 9:14,21; 1 Cor. 1:2). In other words, if a group of Christians is praying to Jesus in Canada, Mexico and Japan at the same time, He would have to be all-knowing to know their requests! Also, since prayer is a form of worship, it would be idolatry to pray to Jesus unless He was and is God by NATURE. (If He wasn't God by NATURE, then the early Church was guilty of idolatry by praying to Jesus, which is IMPOSSIBLE!)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OBJECTION #5. Lk. 18:19 reads, "And Jesus said unto him, 'Why callest thou me good? None is good, save one, that is, God.'" God is "good," but Jesus isn't. Therefore, Jesus isn't God.

ANSWER: If one would look closely at this verse, he should quickly notice that Jesus NEVER said that He Himself was NOT 'good'! He merely asked, "Why callest thou me good?" Jesus wanted to know "WHY," that's all! Furthermore, Jesus openly declared elsewhere that He Himself was the "GOOD shepherd" (Jn. 10:11). Psalm 23 declares YHWH as the "shepherd," but He isn't called the "GOOD" shepherd, the description Jesus reserved for Himself!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OBJECTION #6. Jesus is shown in the Scriptures as being created in Rev. 3:14; Col. 1:15; Prov. 8:22 and Psa. 2:7. If He was created, He can't be God, since God is eternal.

ANSWER: (A) Rev. 3:14 states that Jesus is "the beginning of the creation of God." The word translated "beginning" is ARCHE in the Greek. It also means ORIGIN besides BEGINNING. Since ORIGIN and SOURCE are synonymous, we can now understand why this verse reads in the N. A. B. "the SOURCE of God's creation." This verse doesn't show Jesus is created, but that He is the Creator! After all, since Jesus created EVERYTHING that was created (Col. 1:16), how could He be part of His own creation?


(B) Col. 1:15 reports that Jesus is "the firstborn of every creature." Please notice that it does NOT say "first-created"! This word, "firstborn," has more than one possible meaning. If one would read Gen. 41:51,52; 48:17-19 and Jer. 31:9 he would see that it can mean PREEMINENT. That is how it is used in Col. 1:15 as the context reveals from verses 15 through 18. Jesus is PREEMINENT over creation because: (1) He created everything that was created, (2) ALL created things were created for Him, (3) He existed before ALL created things and (4) ALL created things are held together because of Him.


(C) Prov. 8:22 states that Wisdom was brought forth in the beginning. Since Jesus is called the "Wisdom of God" (1 Cor. 1:24), He was created, according to the argument.

What one must decide is: IS THIS WISDOM MENTIONED IN PROV. 8 REFERRING TO JESUS, BEFORE HE CAME TO EARTH? According to Jn. 1:1,14, Jesus was called the "Word" before He came to earth, NOT Wisdom (or even "Michael" as some groups teach)!

Secondly, the chapter reveals Wisdom in verse 19 as the PROPER USE OF KNOWLEDGE as shown by Job 28:15. Therefore, the Wisdom of Prov. 8 is personified and not really a person at all!

Finally, since Jesus is the WISDOM OF GOD and the POWER OF GOD (1 Cor. 1:24), for one to say that He was created is to say that there was a point in time in the distant past when God existed WITHOUT Wisdom and Power, which is ludicrous!


(D) Psa. 2:7; Jn. 3:16; etc. state that Jesus was "begotten." Does this mean that Jesus had a beginning as we did, since we were begotten by our fathers and at that point we had our beginning? The answer to Psa. 2:7 is found in Acts 13:30-33. There we learn that this verse from Psalms refers to the resurrection of Christ! Secondly, the word translated "only begotten" in Jn. 3:16,18 and 1 Jn. 4:9 in regards to Christ is also used in Heb. 11:17 in regards to Isaac. Was Isaac the FIRST child of Abraham? No! See Gen. 16:15,16. Was Isaac the ONLY child of Abraham? No! See Gen. 16:15,16; 25:1,2. Was Isaac the UNIQUE ONE-OF-A-KIND son of Abraham? Yes! This is how this same Greek word is used in reference to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the UNIQUE ONE-OF-A-KIND Son to the Father, but NOT created. Micah 5:2 refers to Jesus the SAME WAY Psa. 93:2 refers to God. Jesus is "from everlasting" and therefore can't be part of creation. Since He isn't part of creation, then He must be God, since only God is eternal!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OBJECTION #7. In the Bible, Jesus is NEVER called "God the Son," but instead "the Son of God." Therefore, He can't be God.

ANSWER: This argument has a trace of truth in it for the words, "God the Son," are NOT found in the Bible. However, when an "open" student of the Scriptures examines all the verses relevant to the deity of Christ, he will conclude that Jesus is both God and man. How can this be? It's possible the same way Jesus can be both shepherd and lamb and the high priest and sin offering at the same time! Concerning words NOT found in the Bible, the word, "Bible," isn't found in the Bible! Neither is the word "Millennium" found in the Bible, even though it is certainly taught in Rev. 20.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OBJECTION #8. If Jesus is God, who was He praying to in the Garden, Himself?

ANSWER: This question stems from a misconception about HOW Christians believe Jesus is God. We believe Jesus is God BY NATURE. We do NOT believe Jesus is the person of the Father! He can NOT be the Father, since He prayed to the Father in Jn. 17! He certainly wasn't praying to Himself. The Bible teaches that Jesus is God by NATURE, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. There is only one true God by NATURE. See Gal. 4:8. The Trinity is NOT defined as three Gods in one, but instead three Persons in one God. God is the NATURE of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OBJECTION #9. If Jesus is God, then who ran the universe while He was dead for three days?

ANSWER: Again, this is no problem to answer when one understands that Jesus is NOT the person of the Father. The Father and the Son are two separate and distinct personalities.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OBJECTION #10. Jesus can't be God, since God can't die!

ANSWER: Remember, Jesus isn't only God by nature, but also man! Jesus could die as any other human, because He became man (and still is man) besides being God by NATURE.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

OBJECTION #11. Jesus can't be God, because He said that the Father was His God in Jn. 20:17.

ANSWER: Jesus said this as a man. This, however, doesn't change the clear evidence that shows Jesus is God! The Apostle Thomas called Jesus, "My Lord and my God," Jn. 20:28. The Greek literally says, "The Lord of me and the God of me." Remember also that Thomas was a strict MONOtheistic Jew. Was the Apostle Thomas "in the truth?" Obviously he was. Was the Apostle Thomas part of the early church? Obviously he was. Therefore, the early church believed that Jesus is God. If you claim to believe and teach like the early church, then shouldn't you proclaim the same? Are you in the same "light" that the Apostles were in? Furthermore, the Father identifies Jesus as "God" in Heb. 1:8. Again, the Greek says, "the God." Certainly the Father knows the true identity of the Son. Also, Heb. 1:6 declares that "ALL the angels worship Him [Jesus]." Who do the angels worship, according to Rev. 19:10? According to Heb. 1:6, the angel of Rev. 19:10 WORSHIPS Jesus! In fact, Jesus' disciples WORSHIPED Him too (Matt. 28:9). Why do you think Jesus received this WORSHIP from His disciples? Are you following the example of the early disciples regarding this? Did you know it would have been idolatry for those early disciples, who were "in the truth" to worship Jesus, unless He was God?
(taken from another source)

[جوري]

these replies plastered and generic, they don't satisfy one on a spiritual or a cerebral level..

Again most of us have no problem here if christians accept Jesus as a God.. but it doesn't reconcile with monotheism!
God can't be multiplied, procreated, reproduced, added, subtracted, or divided..
peace

[john316]

Think about it this way. The pinnacle or apex of a cone or a pyramid is lenght breath & height at same time. The height is the pinnacle, the lenght is the pinnacle and the width is the pinnacle. The pinnacle is lenght, the pinnacle is breath, the pinncale us height.

God is the Father, God is Jesus and God is te Holy Spirit. The Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

Hope this helps.

[جوري]

it really doesn't.. God is not an object for analogies even--but I respect that, that is what you believe..

peace!

[MartyrX]

Think about it this way. The pinnacle or apex of a cone or a pyramid is lenght breath & height at same time. The height is the pinnacle, the lenght is the pinnacle and the width is the pinnacle. The pinnacle is lenght, the pinnacle is breath, the pinncale us height.

God is the Father, God is Jesus and God is te Holy Spirit. The Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

Hope this helps.

So God is three? I thought God was one.

[*Hana*]

Think about it this way. The pinnacle or apex of a cone or a pyramid is lenght breath & height at same time. The height is the pinnacle, the lenght is the pinnacle and the width is the pinnacle. The pinnacle is lenght, the pinnacle is breath, the pinncale us height.

God is the Father, God is Jesus and God is te Holy Spirit. The Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

Hope this helps.

Now, take away one side of the pyramid and what happens?? It's no longer a pyramid. Therefore, when Jesus died, so did the trinity, which means, so did God.

Sorry, doesn't work.

Peace,
Hana

[john316]

God is not created. Jesus is also not created. Jesus preexisted before creation. As Phillipians 2 says he humbled himself.

"God can't be multiplied, procreated, reproduced, added, subtracted, or divided.."

Agreed The doctrine of the Trinity perhaps depicts that God has a capability of having a relationship. We Christians believe that it is more of a parent child relationship that God wants to share with us.

[john316]

Now, take away one side of the pyramid and what happens?? It's no longer a pyramid. Therefore, when Jesus died, so did the trinity, which means, so did God.

Sorry, doesn't work.

Peace,
Hana

your analogy doesnt work to be honest.

If you have a flat A4 size paper how many dimesions does it have?

[جوري]

God humbled himself?
Astghfor Allah al3li il3atheem!

peace!

[Intisar]

I just don't get it, why would God have to come into the form of one of his own creations?

[*Hana*]

your analogy doesnt work to be honest.

If you have a flat A4 size paper how many dimesions does it have?

lol sorry friend, I didn't give the analogy...you did. I'm very happy to see you realize it doesn't work. :)

How many dimensions does a piece of paper have to make it whole? What happens if you remove one of the dimensions? Is it still paper? Does it maintain it's strength? etc.

Peace,
Hana

[snakelegs]

Hope this helps.

nope. i find that christians have their own maths, understood only by themselves. :D

[john316]

no two dimesionsal system will never really exist. In the flat A4 size paper there are not two but three dimensions. lenght breath and thickness. If there was no third dimension that is thichness then the thickness would be zero and th paper would not exist. Please consider this.

[*Hana*]

no two dimesionsal system will never really exist. In the flat A4 size paper there are not two but three dimensions. lenght breath and thickness. If there was no third dimension that is thichness then the thickness would be zero and th paper would not exist. Please consider this.

Dude, lol, I didn't answer how many dimensions it had, but you were so counting on me saying 2, weren't you. :okay: But, you totally miss the point. It doesn't matter if it has 10, if you remove one it is no longer whole. See?? When Jesus, as part of a tri-union....indivisible and all co-equal....died, so did any concept of a trinity, and therefore God.

Understand now?

Peace,
Hana

[snakelegs]

"God can't be multiplied, procreated, reproduced, added, subtracted, or divided.."

i agree! no 3-some, only 1.

[john316]

OBJECTION #10. Jesus can't be God, since God can't die!

ANSWER: Remember, Jesus isn't only God by nature, but also man! Jesus could die as any other human, because He became man (and still is man) besides being God by NATURE.

[truemuslim]

why would god be human?

[جوري]

OBJECTION #10. Jesus can't be God, since God can't die!

ANSWER: Remember, Jesus isn't only God by nature, but also man! Jesus could die as any other human, because He became man (and still is man) besides being God by NATURE.

May I ask.. what sort of audience are these answers addressing or appeasing? I read them the first time, they weren't satisfactory then, and still illogical now.. that aside though, let me ask you this.. would you ever convert back to Judaism now that you've found God in christ? try to carry that analogy over, because I assure you no thinking, reflecting Muslim can ever accept the 'trinity' after consciousely and freely making the decision to be a Muslim insha'Allah....

2: 256

THERE SHALL BE no coercion in matters of faith.* Distinct has now become the right way from [the way of] error: hence, he who rejects the powers of evil** and believes in God has indeed taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way: for God is all-hearing, all-knowing.



* The term din denotes both the contents of and the compliance with a morally binding law; consequently, it signifies "religion" in the widest sense of this term, extending over all that pertains to its doctrinal contents and their practical implications, as well as to man's attitude towards the object of his worship, thus comprising also the concept of "faith". The rendering of drn as "religion", "faith","religious law" or "moral law" (see note 3 on 109: 6) depends on the context in which this term is used. - On the strength of the above categorical prohibition of coercion (ikrah) in anything that pertains to faith or religion, all Islamic jurists (fugahd'), without any exception, hold that forcible conversion is under all circumstances null and void, and that any attempt at coercing a non-believer to accept the faith of Islam is a grievous sin: a verdict which disposes of the widespread f allacy that Islam places before the unbelievers the alternative of "conversion or the sword".



**250 At-tdghut denotes, primarily, anything that is worshipped instead of God and, thus, all that may turn man away from God and lead him to evil. It has both a singular and a plural significance (Razi) and is, therefore, best rendered as "the powers of evil".

peace

[john316]

Do you consider yourself to be a good person? If so are you good enough to go to heaven? Have you obeyed God's mpral laws perfectly

1)"You shall have no other gods before me."

Have you ever put something in your life before God. You have broken this commandment if on a list of your priorities God is not number 1.

2)"You shall not make for yourself any idols."

If you have an idea of God that is not one of scripture, a God not described in the bible, then you are worshipping a fasle god, an idol. You have broken this commandment if you make God into what you want God to be and not what he is. Pride is also another form of idolatory.

3)"You shall not take the name of God in vain."

Taking God's name in vain name is using the name of God as a cuss word. If you have EVER done that you've broken this commandment.

4)"Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy."

If you haven't ALWAYS set aside 1 out of 7 days for God you have broken this commandment.

5)"Honor your father ad your mother."

Have you EVER disobeyed your parents? Once is enough. That would be breaking this commandment.

6)"You shall not murder."

This one seems easy, but Jesus said if you hate someone you are guilty of murder. Have you EVER hated someone WITHOUT CAUSE? That would be breaking this commandment.

7)"You shall not commit adultery."

This is one seems like another one you may have kept, but Jesus said if you look at someone with lust in heart then you have committed adultery. Ever thought about another person with lust? Have you desired someone sexually. It's ok to appreciate the beauty but did you ever have an intent have having illegitimate sex with himor her? Then you broke this one too.

8)"You shall not steal."

Anything you have taken that is not yours without permission is stealing. A crayan or a car, both if taken without permission are stolen. If you have done that then you have broken number 8.

9)"You shall not lie."

One lie is all it takes to become a liar. Do that, and you have broken another commandment.

10)"You shall not covet."

If you want something that is someone else's, anything from anyone, then you have covetted. That is another broken commandment.


Please examine yourself with a sincere heart......If you truly love your God then please examine yourself I request you.

[*Hana*]

OBJECTION #10. Jesus can't be God, since God can't die!

ANSWER: Remember, Jesus isn't only God by nature, but also man! Jesus could die as any other human, because He became man (and still is man) besides being God by NATURE.

Nope, sorry again. Do you understand the Athanasian Creed? It absolutely, positively, in no way says what you are saying here. In actuality, it says completely different.

Peace,
Hana

ps: Please don't "over post". It's why I didn't bother reading your first one. We are talking of one thing here for now....not 10. :) HOwever, in response to the very first commandment...you're breaking that...not me. :) I only pray to God.

Hana

[MartyrX]

God is not created. Jesus is also not created. Jesus preexisted before creation. As Phillipians 2 says he humbled himself.

"God can't be multiplied, procreated, reproduced, added, subtracted, or divided.."

Agreed The doctrine of the Trinity perhaps depicts that God has a capability of having a relationship. We Christians believe that it is more of a parent child relationship that God wants to share with us.

So Jesus was not created yet he existed. So was he created or was he not?

[john316]

Nope, sorry again. Do you understand the Athanasian Creed? It absolutely, positively, in no way says what you are saying here. In actuality, it says completely different.

Peace,
Hana

ps: Please don't "over post". It's why I didn't bother reading your first one. We are talking of one thing here for now....not 10. :) HOwever, in response to the very first commandment...you're breaking that...not me. :) I only pray to God.

Hana

then go through the other commandments and see how you do....

[*Hana*]

then go through the other commandments and see how you do....

lol, And this answers to what I said how????

Please stay with the topic and respond to the questions/comments at hand rather than trying to jump to another topic. If you don't know the answer or can't respond, it's not a problem, just say so and we can move on to something else. :)

Peace,
Hana

[جوري]

Do you consider yourself to be a good person? If so are you good enough to go to heaven? Have you obeyed God's mpral laws perfectly

Have you?

1)"You shall have no other gods before me."

so why do you take Jesus and the 'holy spirit' for Gods?

Have you ever put something in your life before God. You have broken this commandment if on a list of your priorities God is not number 1.

Do you?

2)"You shall not make for yourself any idols."

Why is there a statue of Jesus in every church? and between bratz dolls.. is that your God at wallmart? Why do you comission artists to use dead w h o r e s to depict the virgin mary? caravaggio death of the virgin

If you have an idea of God that is not one of scripture, a God not described in the bible, then you are worshipping a fasle god, an idol. You have broken this commandment if you make God into what you want God to be and not what he is. Pride is also another form of idolatory.

well you only have yourselves to thank for the mockery that Paul has made of his commandments..

3)"You shall not take the name of God in vain."

I see many christians do so every day.. a crying shame

4)"Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy."

Do you keep the sabbath holy? sabath is saturday youm asabt.

If you haven't ALWAYS set aside 1 out of 7 days for God you have broken this commandment.

Muslims dedicate every day five times a day to God not just one!

5)"Honor your father ad your mother."

Have you EVER disobeyed your parents? Once is enough. That would be breaking this commandment.

indeed

6)"You shall not murder."

What is America doing in Afghanistan, and Iraq while keeping the ultimate goal on Iran?

This one seems easy, but Jesus said if you hate someone you are guilty of murder. Have you EVER hated someone WITHOUT CAUSE? That would be breaking this commandment.

You got to make rounds on various blogs then and undo all that hatred toward Muslims or do they not count?

7)"You shall not commit adultery."

I find this the most refreshing, considering half of the girls in my catholic high school were knocked up and pregnant before they even turned 14!

This is one seems like another one you may have kept, but Jesus said if you look at someone with lust in heart then you have committed adultery. Ever thought about another person with lust? Have you desired someone sexually. It's ok to appreciate the beauty but did you ever have an intent have having illegitimate sex with himor her? Then you broke this one too.

You'd have to censor half of the programming here, practically 90&#37; of sexual relations on TV break those commandments (for a nation under God) not very puritanical-- a shame

8)"You shall not steal."

Anything you have taken that is not yours without permission is stealing. A crayan or a car, both if taken without permission are stolen. If you have done that then you have broken number 8.

we can only hope..

Please examine yourself with a sincere heart......If you truly love your God then please examine yourself I request you.

hope you do the same

cheers

[john316]

Have you?


so why do you take Jesus and the 'holy spirit' for Gods?


Do you?


Why is there a statue of Jesus in every church? and between bratz dolls.. is that your God at wallmart? Why do you comission artists to use dead w h o r e s to depict the virgin mary? caravaggio death of the virgin


well you only have yourselves to thank for the mockery that Paul has made of his commandments..

I see many christians do so every day.. a crying shame


Do you keep the sabbath holy? sabath is saturday youm asabt.

Muslims dedicate every day five times a day to God not just one!

indeed


What is America doing in Afghanistan, and Iraq while keeping the ultimate goal on Iran?


You got to make rounds on various blogs then and undo all that hatred toward Muslims or do they not count?


I find this the most refreshing, considering half of the girls in my catholic high school were knocked up and pregnant before they even turned 14!


You'd have to censor half of the programming here, practically 90% of sexual relations on TV break those commandments (for a nation under God) not very puritanical-- a shame

we can only hope..








hope you do the same

cheers

I have taken this test. And I have found out that I have broken every one of these ten commandments

I never always put God first in my life.
I made up my own version of god in my life. a god with whom i am more comfortable with.
I never always set one day aside for God.
I never always honoured my parents.
I use to hate people and show respect for persons.
I never had an intercourse. But I use to be a pornagrapher, masturbater
I remember trying to steal.
I lied a lot
I use to covet other people's lifestyle.

That's all I did my entire life nothing but sin. Even my best noblest works were like filthy rags not enough to please. Isaiah 64:6.

All I deserved was God's holy wrath of hell. God is holy and I was sinner. God hates wickedness and has to punish. An eternity in hell is just a sign of offending a holy God and the seriousness of sin. Satan commoted just one sin to be kicked out of heaven. I am no different. But God did not want me perish. I came to repentance but I had to pay for my sins in eternity. Which is why God(Jesus) became a man, humbled himself, walked a blameless life. but laid down his life for me.(John 10:17-18). suffered and died on the cross. suffered in hell and rose on the third day. It's as simple as this I broke the law. Jesus paid my fine. I am saved not by my own works by by God's grace through faith. Grace applies to my past sins that has been repented off. I cannot turn God's grace to a license to immorality(Jude 4) or else he will take that away(Hebrews 10:26-31). I am a living sacrfice t my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God is no respector of persons. The God of the old testament in no different from the God of the new testament. Israel was God's people for a long time. but they were acting like the world smelling like the world, doing the things that God hates that God literaaly divorced them. He is no different.

Matthew 7:13-28
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The Wise and Foolish Builders
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

[جوري]

????

what this all about?

[john316]

that is what i believe and that is what i cant deny.

[جوري]

Ok.. congratulations. I wish you well on your path..

cheers

[mohsen1985]

OBJECTION #10. Jesus can't be God, since God can't die!

ANSWER: Remember, Jesus isn't only God by nature, but also man! Jesus could die as any other human, because He became man (and still is man) besides being God by NATURE.

"He became man and is still man besides being God by NATURE" . . . So when he died, God died. How can he resurrect himself after being dead?^o)

[john316]

you have to consider the 11 objections I posted earlier and some other rebuttals from me that follow in this thread itself. I think it is from page 10 or 11

[Mikayeel]

WE came to a conlclusion! JESES is not god! (it works fine for me) its like saying an ant is an elephant??? HUH ye HUH!!!!

[john316]

prove it.

[Mikayeel]

Prove that an ant is not an elephant?? That requires some basic knowledge and and some faith!(and a tiny but of understanding/wisdom)

[john316]

you need some evidennce rather than just a random statement. Even the least educated know that an ant is not an elephant.

And you know what
For with God nothing will be impossible.
-Luke 1:37

[mohsen1985]

you need some evidennce rather than just a random statement. Even the least educated know that an ant is not an elephant.

And you know what
For with God nothing will be impossible.
-Luke 1:37

hmmmm, so answer me these questions:

Can God create a human being (or any other creature for that matter) so powerful, that he himself will not be able to destroy?

Can God create a rock so big that he won't be able to lift it?

Can God fit the universe in a regular sized egg?

[john316]

The humble side of God
Phillipians 2:5-7
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men

The powerful side of God
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[جوري]

your beliefs are bordering upon sacrilegious. I understand that christian need for anthropomorphism and theanthropism- but that to us is frank shirk. An unforgivable cardinal sin!
it is such a shame that christianity has so deviated from monotheism, but you are entitled to your beliefs, they don't make sense to the rest of us!

cheers

[john316]

Proverbs 1:28-30
28 “ Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.

[جوري]

prove it.

God doesn't eat, he doesn't die, he doesn't poo, he doesn't D A M N trees in the world he created, he doesn't have personality disorder and pray to himself garden of gethsemane, he doesn't suckle, he doesn't have a mother, he doesn't have a helper to annunciate that he'll now become a zygote.

All God needs to do is tell something be and it shall be. HE DOESN'T HAVE HUMAN NEEDS, Frankly, I can't believe someone in this day and age would believe in that wonderful Greek myth of the divine Zeus copulating with the mortal Hera to have Hercules. except even that makes a little sense for they don't claim that they are all one in the same!

And all of this nonesense for what really? so you can sin and get away with it so long as you accept that your God died?
pls man.. get a dose of pragmatism!

cheers

[جوري]

Proverbs 1:28-30
28 “ Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.

I really think you ought to consider yourself and fellow christians the subject of that proverb!

cheers

[john316]

Who are you to tell what God can or cannot do. If I can become a man, why can't God. Is it sin for God to become a man.

Well you have
Numbers 23:19
19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

If you read that in context. It says God's nature is not inclined to that of sinful man. Man can be tempted but God cannot. Jesus from God he became man. He was tempted because he was man. He didnt sin because he was God. Jesus was full man full God.

[جوري]

Who are you to tell what God can or cannot do. If I can become a man, why can't God. Is it sin for God to become a man.

Well you have
Numbers 23:19
19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

If you read that in context. It says God's nature is not inclined to that of sinful man. Man can be tempted but God cannot. Jesus from God he became man. He was tempted because he was man. He didnt sin because he was God.

you believe what you will of God on your own time and your own terms...
you are constantly contradicting yourself.

cheers

[john316]

1 Corinthians 1:27
27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

Gotta go to bed. In any case I would really like to thank you for bearing up with me. I joined another Islamic forum earlier and guess what they blocked me. I'm doing this not out of hatred. But out of love. You can curse me to a great extent but your salvation is what I am here for.

PS my parents are not saved yet. So if you get saved one day, you will not regret this moment.

God bless

[*Hana*]

1 Corinthians 1:27
27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

Gotta go to bed. In any case I would really like to thank you for bearing up with me. I joined another Islamic forum earlier and guess what they blocked me. I'm doing this not out of hatred. But out of love. You can curse me to a great extent but your salvation is what I am here for.

PS my parents are not saved yet. So if you get saved one day, you will not regret this moment.

God bless

Peace:

You would be hard pressed to find a Muslim that would accept the Christian idea of salvation. When your entire salvation is based on something totally illogical and something that can't be understood, it is our hope Allah, swt, will guide you to truth so you will not regret this life. :)

All you do is post verses and with all sincerity, it seems you are doing so blindly. You really don't understand what you're posting quite frankly. Maybe some day you will look objectively at your own faith and ask questions. I hope so...your salvation depends on it. :)

Peace,
Hana

[rahul_89]

salma bros sistas.....dz ne1 knw ne gd websites for downloading Ahmed Deedat vids??

[------]

:salamext:

^^ Here..

http://www.islamonline.net/discussio...essageID=91802

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:

salma bros sistas.....dz ne1 knw ne gd websites for downloading Ahmed Deedat vids??

Try youtube, akh http://youtube.com/results?search_qu...&search=Search
and here
also, can you please write in clearer English, i have trouble reading it :hiding:
:sl:

[------]

:salamext:

For with God nothing will be impossible.
-Luke 1:37

Yo refer to my post mate:

Let me give another example here (Zakir Naik's): Some Christians say to describe the trinity that water is still water, whether its water vapour in the gas form, water in the liquid form, or ice in the solid form. The formula remains the same. This is like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

However, the properties of H20 (Water) remains the same throughout all three processes. It does not 'change' the formula of the water. It remains H20.

If we put this into perspective, we can see that God, Human and 'bird' [excuse my lack of vocabulary] do not have the same properties, functions etc, when they are known to be as one.

[ummsara1108]

I thought this was a debate?

But it has obviously turned into a I hate you, your stupid, wish you were dead thread...

I have 100% proof that in all the different religions hatred or belittling another person is Bad/Harram where's the peace? I am directing this to everyone, not anyone particular.

Let's just all take a breath and start a better day..

[mohsen1985]

1 Corinthians 1:27
27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.

Gotta go to bed. In any case I would really like to thank you for bearing up with me. I joined another Islamic forum earlier and guess what they blocked me. I'm doing this not out of hatred. But out of love. You can curse me to a great extent but your salvation is what I am here for.

PS my parents are not saved yet. So if you get saved one day, you will not regret this moment.

God bless

Saved? Salvation? What what? So you're saying the only way we get into heaven is if we accept Jesus into our hearts?

:blind:

Guess what, you can have no religion, follow no prophets' teaching, and still get into heaven. As long as you believen in God, and you're a good person, you're in!. It doesn't work like that if you already have a religion and just say goodbye to it, no. If you're a Muslim you must perform your duties as a muslim. But let's say someone who's born in the jungle, has no contact with the rest of the world, etc . . .


Here's a question for our Christian friends . . .

What's Jesus's real name?

I've asked this question from many of my "saved" Christian friends. It's funny how they have accepted him and been saved and they don't even know his name:'(

[------]

:salamext:

^ Thread should be locked yeh? Until a mod sorts it out?

[YusufNoor]

Proverbs 1:28-30
28 “ Then [ Christians] they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They [ Christians] will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.

Because the have rejected the Lord God Almighty and replaced him with a pantheon of associates...

29 Because they [Christians] hated knowledge

Because they refused to accept the Seal of the Prophets, Mohammad ibn Abdullah ibn Abdul Muttaalib, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam

And did not choose the fear of the LORD,

Instead, they pretend that Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, Alaihe Salaam erased all laws and they no longer need to obey the Lord God Almighty

30 They [Christians] would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.

That's correct, they put their fingers in their ears and refused to hear the word of the Lord God Almighty in the Qur'an and Sunnah; preferring polytheism and pork...

But hey if it works for you...

:w:

[*Hana*]

:salamext:

^ Thread should be locked yeh? Until a mod sorts it out?

Not necessary to lock or close a thread because of a few bad posts...simply remove them or ignore them and continue with the discussion at hand. :)

Wasalam,
Hana

[Whatsthepoint]

your beliefs are bordering upon sacrilegious. I understand that christian need for anthropomorphism and theanthropism- but that to us is frank shirk.

All religions are antropomorphic, including Islam.
All Gods are basically humans with super powers, Christianity went one step further and made (a part of) their god an actual human...

[Whatsthepoint]

I've heard many times on these boards that God/Allah is above human logic, hat it cannot be fully understood etc etc.

The trinity and the trinitarian monotheism may be a good example...although I, as a former Christian, get the general idea and can imagine the concept... it does make sense, it just takes a bit of faith.

[------]

:salamext:

The trinity and the trinitarian monotheism may be a good example...although I, as a former Christian, get the general idea and can imagine the concept... it does make sense, it just takes a bit of faith.

No it doesn't!! Think with a clear mind for heavens sake.

:salamext:

Let me give another example here (Zakir Naik's): Some Christians say to describe the trinity that water is still water, whether its water vapour in the gas form, water in the liquid form, or ice in the solid form. The formula remains the same. This is like the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

However, the properties of H20 (Water) remains the same throughout all three processes. It does not 'change' the formula of the water. It remains H20.

If we put this into perspective, we can see that God, Human and 'bird' [excuse my lack of vocabulary] do not have the same properties, functions etc, when they are known to be as one.

[Whatsthepoint]

:salamext:
No it doesn't!! Think with a clear mind for heavens sake.

It does make sense.
And anyway, it doesn't have to. It's god we're talking about.

[------]

:salamext:

Lol whats the point of debating if ur going to stick to ur blank theory that is not making any sense, and above all u say God is illogical?! Lol....am out.

Peace.

[Whatsthepoint]

:salamext:

Lol whats the point of debating if ur going to stick to ur blank theory that is not making any sense, and above all u say God is illogical?! Lol....am out.

Peace.

It doesn't make any sense to you, it does to me.
By my logic, a perfect, self-sufficient being would never have created the universe, but then religious people tell me I am wrong...
I guess I am saying god is illogical, as it is (if it exists) above our comprehension.

[Woodrow]

It is impossible for a theist, agnostic and atheist to have the same concept of what is the nature of God(swt). If we all agreed an the same nature and attributes we would all be one or the other.

as there is no mutually acceptable reference points, there can be no debate, only argument that results in anger, name calling and very childish behavior.

:threadclo: