Muslim Seeking Refutation of Alleged Ad Hominem Fallacy in Quran

[AntiKarateKid]

Hey! I was recently confronted with the claim that when the Quran calls us to watch out for the disbelievers and that they may mislead us, it is an ad hominem fallacy. Can any of you help me clarify this?

[جوري]

Tell me what use does the Quran have for an atheist to be the crux of his/her argument?
Shouldn't you be discussing things from a mutual ground?
You'd have to establish that there is a God before you can discuss the content of his books and in what contexts they are used?...

It is as if you get a person who accuses you of not treating his son's chronic sinusitis, claims that you are discriminating against him because he is an atheist or that you must have an inadequate education to not be able to help them out, when his son in fact has primary ciliary dyskinesia and his lungs can't expell infections or mucus plugs.

His son is already born with an inherited syndrome, how are you responsible for the reoccurring maladies?

I am going to level with you, you are simply wasting your time on atheists, no sooner will you find this out on your own, but I am merely trying to save you wasted time. You don't have to defend your beliefs to people who can't defend theirs..

these are two paralleles which shall never intersect.. it is time you should be focusing on you.. because Allah has indeed warned us against vain discourse...

Yesterday I got a very hateful PM from a member here, who used every profanity on earth to mock me, every member, the mods and in closure wished me death, he is still around, I can't imagine why? but it is ok, a little contrast is always great.. I am pretty sure he wanted to provoke a response because of his own sense of inadequacy, and inferiority.. he hangs around a particular sphere, do you really think it wise to descend down to word play with degenerates who ultimately have one purpose in mind, which is to mock you and your beliefs...

Allah has already told you in his noble book, be patient and keep steadfast.. offer da3wa to those who seek it and those who deserve it. Otherwise and from my heart I say this, just blow 'em a sarcastic kiss, shrug your shoulders and be on your merry way

:w:

[Trumble]

Hey! I was recently confronted with the claim that when the Quran calls us to watch out for the disbelievers and that they may mislead us, it is an ad hominem fallacy. Can any of you help me clarify this?

It isn't an ad hominem fallacy, it is merely a warning. If it said something like "don't believe the disbelievers when they tell you such-and-such because they always lie" it would be an ad hominem fallacy. Assuming, of course, that they don't always lie!

[AntiKarateKid]

Thanks for the reply Trumble. Point well taken P.A.:peace:

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[snakelegs]

Tell me what use does the Quran have for an atheist to be the crux of his/her argument?
Shouldn't you be discussing things from a mutual ground?
You'd have to establish that there is a God before you can discuss the content of his books and in what contexts they are used?...

I am going to level with you, you are simply wasting your time on atheists, no sooner will you find this out on your own, but I am merely trying to save you wasted time. You don't have to defend your beliefs to people who can't defend theirs..
these are two paralleles which shall never intersect.. it is time you should be focusing on you.. because Allah has indeed warned us against vain discourse...

Allah has already told you in his noble book, be patient and keep steadfast.. offer da3wa to those who seek it and those who deserve it.

:w:

excellet advice!
antikatate,
if i remember right you said somewhere else that you have only recently become religious. so i assume you are just at the beginning of a lifetime of learning. learn your religion - don't waste time on refutations.

[AntiKarateKid]

Gotcha, good advice all around. Thanks alot for the help!!

[Trumble]

excellet advice!
antikatate,
if i remember right you said somewhere else that you have only recently become religious. so i assume you are just at the beginning of a lifetime of learning. learn your religion - don't waste time on refutations.

Don't waste time on arguing with people you will never convince,certainly. Refutations,though, work both ways. Whatever your religion, if you are aware of and understand points raised by others but can refute them to your own satisfaction, your faith is strengthened, not weakened, and that isn't a waste of time! In other words, look upon those pesky atheists as offering you a beneficial opportunity.

[Skavau]

I'm sorry, but the attitude of a specific user here infuriates me.

Tell me what use does the Quran have for an atheist to be the crux of his/her argument?

I note you immediately presume that the person the original poster is arguing with is an Atheist. Why is this?

I am going to level with you, you are simply wasting your time on atheists, no sooner will you find this out on your own, but I am merely trying to save you wasted time. You don't have to defend your beliefs to people who can't defend theirs..

Your tirade goes on. I honestly find your constant bigotry towards Atheists and Atheism hideous and an insult to the otherwise good discussion that can be found on this forum. I don't care if this is not the topic of this thread, I do not at all think it is at all fair for a single user be allowed to constantly make out Atheists to be rock bottom of humanity.

Yesterday I got a very hateful PM from a member here, who used every profanity on earth to mock me, every member, the mods and in closure wished me death, he is still around, I can't imagine why? but it is ok, a little contrast is always great.. I am pretty sure he wanted to provoke a response because of his own sense of inadequacy, and inferiority.. he hangs around a particular sphere, do you really think it wise to descend down to word play with degenerates who ultimately have one purpose in mind, which is to mock you and your beliefs...

Are you defining Atheists as degenerates or the particular user who sent you that private message?

[جوري]

I'm sorry, but the attitude of a specific user here infuriates me.
I note you immediately presume that the person the original poster is arguing with is an Atheist. Why is this?

that is what a disbeliever is by definition (an atheist)!

Your tirade goes on. I honestly find your constant bigotry towards Atheists and Atheism hideous and an insult to the otherwise good discussion that can be found on this forum. I don't care if this is not the topic of this thread, I do not at all think it is at all fair for a single user be allowed to constantly make out Atheists to be rock bottom of humanity.

an atheist who mocks and challenges will only be met with the same!

Are you defining Atheists as degenerates or the particular user who sent you that private message?

those who are, are! and those who aren't aren't!
peace

[Skavau]

that is what a disbeliever is by definition (an atheist)!

How do you know an Atheist raised the issue in the first post though? It does not matter if it addresses Atheists. Why could a Christian not have raised it?

an atheist who mocks and challenges will only be met with the same!

Are you referring to me? If so, then when in the past have I either mocked or challenged you?

those who are, are! and those who aren't aren't!

I don't know what this means. You referred to a group of people as 'degenerates'. Who was that group? Atheists or the type of people that threaten?

[جوري]

How do you know an Atheist raised the issue in the first post though? It does not matter if it addresses Atheists. Why could a Christian not have raised it?

Again, that is what a disbeliever is by definition 'Someone who refuses to believe (as in a divinity)' check it out in the dictionary if in doubt!

Are you referring to me? If so, then when in the past have I either mocked or challenged you?

I am not sure why you have even insuinated yourself into this post? did someone beckon you or you are just looking to get a rise out of me?

I don't know what this means. You referred to a group of people as 'degenerates'. Who was that group? Atheists or the type of people that threaten?

Some atheists are definite degenerates!

cheers

[Skavau]

Again, that is what a disbeliever is by definition 'Someone who refuses to believe (as in a divinity)' check it out in the dictionary if in doubt!

A disbeliever can be anyone who disbelieves in something. If I disbelieve in Thor, then I am a disbeliever in Thor.

Irrespectively, I know how you define disbeliever - but how do you the person who raised this criticism of the Quran was in fact - not a Christian?

I am not sure why you have even insuinated yourself into this post? did someone beckon you or you are just looking to get a rise out of me?

I happened to visit the Refutations and saw this. No-one beckoned me.

Irrespectively, you didn't answer the question: Are you referring to me? If so, then when in the past have I either mocked or challenged you?

Some atheists are definite degenerates!

cheers

Who were you referring to when you said 'degenerates'?

[جوري]

A disbeliever can be anyone who disbelieves in something. If I disbelieve in Thor, then I am a disbeliever in Thor.

Irrespectively, I know how you define disbeliever - but how do you the person who raised this criticism of the Quran was in fact - not a Christian?

That begs the question.. is thor all you don't believe in? or does that also aply to Akal Purakh, Ek Onkar, Waheguru, Bhao Khandan, Dukh Bhanjno, Bhagat, Vachhal, Hari, Govinda, Bhagavan? The meaning of disbeliever is quite defined.. we are not going to dance around in circles to conform to your needs as fits a particular post!... if it were a christian or a Jew the OP would have mentioned christian or jew or as we Muslims define them (people of the book)!

I happened to visit the Refutations and saw this. No-one beckoned me.

fascinating.. is this a cry for help?

Irrespectively, you didn't answer the question: Are you referring to me? If so, then when in the past have I either mocked or challenged you?

This seems to me in the ball park of paranoid schizophrenia or extreme narcissism.. which is it? are you the only atheist here, are you the atheist addressing the OP? are you the atheist PMing me with vile language? or you just in need of some attention?

Who were you referring to when you said 'degenerates'?

Atheists who have earned it!
with that said, if you don't like it here, don't like the members here, don't like the views shared here, then don't be a member here..
are we done?

cheers

[Heera Singh]

I have been told that a 'disbeliever' is one who doesn't believe in the Islamic way of life - is that wrong? (btw, I was told this by a muslim friend)

or is the 'right' definition of 'disbeliever' one that doesn't believe in God?

Just curious, for my own knowledge...

[جوري]

I have been told that a 'disbeliever' is one who doesn't believe in the Islamic way of life - is that wrong? (btw, I was told this by a muslim friend)

or is the 'right' definition of 'disbeliever' one that doesn't believe in God?

Just curious, for my own knowledge...

A kaffir literally means a disbeliever someone who refuses to believe (in a divinity).. I think what your friend is referring to is a Moshrik and not a kaffir, but it is best you ask him what he meant.

You may certainly stick the word 'disbeliever' in the dictionary and see what comes up.. whatever subjective views people hold as to what it actually denotes is a matter different all together..

cheers

[Heera Singh]

^^ Thanks ambrosia...

i never heard of the word "moshrik" but now i kno the diff!!

and i'll ask her what she meant by it..

Bless!

[Malaikah]

Actually as far as I know anyone who is not a Muslim is a disbelieve, regardless of whether they are atheist r not. I have never heard the word disbeliever (kafir) be used on for atheists.

Also a mushrik (or a moshrik as our sister spelled it), is type of disbeliever who associates others with God. I have seen it translated directly as "associator".

[جوري]

I disagree..
the word kaffir is clearely defined even in the Arabic dictionary

atheist noun person who disbelieves in God's existence Kaffir.. you can see it in Arabic here
جَاحِد , دَهْرِيّ , زِنْدِيق , كافِر , كَفَّار , كَفُور , مُلْحِد Arabic to English and English to Arabic Arabic - English
كافِر صـــــفـــــــة زِنْدِيق kaffir
godless , disbeliever , irreligious , infidel , heretic , atheist , apostate , miscreant , unbeliever

the meaning is clear.. doesn't say christian/jew/ sikh or whatever on the account they all believe in God!


http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidi...=E-A&sub=?????


:w:

[Malaikah]

:sl:

If that is the case, why does the Quran say

Ya ayyo hal kafiron, la a3bido ma ta3bidoon

Translation: O, you who disbelieve, I do not worship what you worship.

If kafir means atheist, then atheists do not worship, but the verse is saying that these kafirs are worshipping... therefore the meaning of kafir can't be limited to atheists only.

[جوري]

:sl:

If that is the case, why does the Quran say

Ya ayyo hal kafiron, la a3bido ma ta3bidoon

Translation: O, you who disbelieve, I do not worship what you worship.

If kafir means atheist, then atheists do not worship, but the verse is saying that these kafirs are worshipping... therefore the meaning of kafir can't be limited to atheists only.

You are probably right, I was just thinking about it before reading your latest... but the Quran also addresses 'Ahel ilkitab'--people of the book on multitudes of occasions..
perhaps kaffirs are those who deny his books and messengers (the divine books) Sikhs/hindues shintus/buddhists/atheists but I highly doubt ahel ilkitab are kaffirs.. it just doesn't go with the word in Arabic.. the actual meaning of the world means someone who disbelieves!!!

الَّذِينَ آتَيْنَاهُمُ الْكِتَابَ يَعْرِفُونَهُ كَمَا يَعْرِفُونَ أَبْنَاءَهُمْ وَإِنَّ فَرِيقًا مِنْهُمْ لَيَكْتُمُونَ الْحَقَّ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ

يُخْبِر تَعَالَى أَنَّ الْعُلَمَاء مِنْ أَهْل الْكِتَاب يَعْرِفُونَ صِحَّة مَا جَاءَهُمْ بِهِ الرَّسُول صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ كَمَا يَعْرِف أَحَدهمْ وَلَده وَالْعَرَب كَانَتْ تَضْرِب الْمَثَل فِي صِحَّة الشَّيْء بِهَذَا كَمَا جَاءَ فِي الْحَدِيث أَنَّ رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ لِرَجُلٍ مَعَهُ صَغِير اِبْنُك هَذَا " قَالَ نَعَمْ يَا رَسُول اللَّه أَشْهَد بِهِ قَالَ " أَمَا إِنَّهُ لَا يَخْفَى عَلَيْك وَلَا تَخْفَى عَلَيْهِ " قَالَ الْقُرْطُبِيّ : وَيُرْوَى عَنْ عُمَر أَنَّهُ قَالَ لِعَبْدِ اللَّه بْن سَلَام : أَتَعْرِفُ مُحَمَّدًا كَمَا تَعْرِف وَلَدك ؟ قَالَ نَعَمْ وَأَكْثَر نَزَلَ الْأَمِين مِنْ السَّمَاء عَلَى الْأَمِين فِي الْأَرْض بِنَعْتِهِ فَعَرَفْته وَإِنِّي لَا أَدْرِي مَا كَانَ مِنْ أُمّه قُلْت وَقَدْ يَكُون الْمُرَاد " يَعْرِفُونَهُ كَمَا يَعْرِفُونَ أَبْنَاءَهُمْ " مِنْ بَيْن أَبْنَاء النَّاس كُلّهمْ لَا يَشُكّ أَحَد وَلَا يَمْتَرِي فِي مَعْرِفَة اِبْنه إِذَا رَآهُ مِنْ أَبْنَاء النَّاس كُلّهمْ ثُمَّ أَخْبَرَ تَعَالَى أَنَّهُمْ مَعَ هَذَا التَّحَقُّق وَالْإِتْقَان الْعِلْمِيّ " لَيَكْتُمُونَ الْحَقَّ " أَيْ لَيَكْتُمُونَ النَّاس مَا فِي كُتُبهمْ مِنْ صِفَة النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ" وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ " .





2: 146] The people of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the truth which they themselves know.


Allah knows best

Baraka Allah feeki

:w:

[Skavau]

That begs the question.. is thor all you don't believe in? or does that also aply to Akal Purakh, Ek Onkar, Waheguru, Bhao Khandan, Dukh Bhanjno, Bhagat, Vachhal, Hari, Govinda, Bhagavan? The meaning of disbeliever is quite defined.. we are not going to dance around in circles to conform to your needs as fits a particular post!... if it were a christian or a Jew the OP would have mentioned christian or jew or as we Muslims define them (people of the book)!

The original poster might not have done that. Anyone could have made the original criticism. You just assumed it was an Atheist.

fascinating.. is this a cry for help?

Cry for help for what?

This seems to me in the ball park of paranoid schizophrenia or extreme narcissism.. which is it? are you the only atheist here, are you the atheist addressing the OP? are you the atheist PMing me with vile language? or you just in need of some attention?

Okay. I will assume you do not mean me then.

Atheists who have earned it!

So not people who have earned it then?

with that said, if you don't like it here, don't like the members here, don't like the views shared here, then don't be a member here..

But I do like it here and have no problem with the vast majority of members.

[جوري]

The original poster might not have done that. Anyone could have made the original criticism. You just assumed it was an Atheist.

Indeed a calculated assumption and in ts proper place!

Cry for help for what?

I don't know.. you tell me, why do you insinuate yourself in a topic that is of no concern to you?

Okay. I will assume you do not mean me then.

That is inconsequential to me.. do your assumptions on your own private time!

So not people who have earned it then?

Are you suffering from subacute sclerosing panencephalopathy? try to focus, so we are not here ad infinitum coaxing your bruised not to mention very confused ego!

But I do like it here and have no problem with the vast majority of members

You might want to avoid the ones your don't like then!..
little charades aren't amusing!

cheers

[Skavau]

Indeed a calculated assumption and in ts proper place!

I see no logic behind your assumption.

I don't know.. you tell me, why do you insinuate yourself in a topic that is of no concern to you?

I said my piece on my first reply. I did not like the attitude expressed.

That is inconsequential to me.. do your assumptions on your own private time!

Do you mean me then?

Are you suffering from subacute sclerosing panencephalopathy? try to focus, so we are not here ad infinitum coaxing your bruised not to mention very confused ego!

What precisely does this have to do with my ego? Why do you even bring it up? This has nothing to do with anything. I addressed originally what I thought was a bad attitude and you start commenting on my 'ego'?

I don't even know what you are talking about.

You might want to avoid the ones your don't like then!..

I don't avoid anyone on forums. I comment on posts that I deem relevant to me. If someone I feel is making a false assumption, or engaging in widespread erroneous generalisations - I will point it out. I type to a lot of people I do not respect on other forums.

little charades aren't amusing!

What 'charades'?

[جوري]

I see no logic behind your assumption.

this concerns me how?

I said my piece on my first reply. I did not like the attitude expressed.

Again, trivial and inconsequential!

Do you mean me then?

If you feel it applies to you, then so be it!

What precisely does this have to do with my ego? Why do you even bring it up? This has nothing to do with anything. I addressed originally what I thought was a bad attitude and you start commenting on my 'ego'?

Get a self-help book and gain some perspective before commenting on other people's attitudes.. yours leaves very little to be desired at the moment!

I don't even know what you are talking about.

You too can be a google scholar by sticking things over your head, in a search engine!

I don't avoid anyone on forums. I comment on posts that I deem relevant to me. If someone I feel is making a false assumption, or engaging in widespread erroneous generalisations - I will point it out. I type to a lot of people I do not respect on other forums.

You should, in the least out of respect for other people's time.. we don't all have the luxury to sit here all day to engage in vacuous discourse!

What 'charades'?

This crap.. want to keep it up?

cheers

[Skavau]

this concerns me how?

No idea.

Again, trivial and inconsequential!

Perhaps, perhaps not.

If you feel it applies to you, then so be it!

Only you know the answer to whether you mean me. I would appreciate it if you actually answered it rather than just assert that my conclusions are 'assumptions'. So as I have not actually received a direct answer: Are you referring to me? If so, then when in the past have I either mocked or challenged you?

Get a self-help book and gain some perspective before commenting on other people's attitudes.. yours leaves very little to be desired at the moment!

What about my attitude?

You should, in the least out of respect for other people's time.. we don't all have the luxury to sit here all day to engage in vacuous discourse!

I never said you did. There is no compulsion to respond to any of this for either of us.

[جوري]

No idea.

Great --then stop wasting my time!

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Oh how mysterious, and virtually appealing!......

Only you know the answer to whether you mean me. I would appreciate it if you actually answered it rather than just assert that my conclusions are 'assumptions'. So as I have not actually received a direct answer: Are you referring to me? If so, then when in the past have I either mocked or challenged you?

see all the previous replies, clever chap!

What about my attitude?

more of a mindless drivel!

I never said you did. There is no compulsion to respond to any of this for either of us.

Great..

cheers

[Skavau]

Great --then stop wasting my time!

You know, there is no compulsion for you to respond.

Oh how mysterious, and virtually appealing!......

The irony is interesting.

see all the previous replies, clever chap!

I have. They are all inconclusive.

more of a mindless drivel!

The above is meaningless rhetoric. What about my attitude?

[AvarAllahNoor]

That begs the question.. is thor all you don't believe in? or does that also aply to Akal Purakh, Ek Onkar, Waheguru, Bhao Khandan, Dukh Bhanjno, Bhagat, Vachhal, Hari, Govinda, Bhagavan? The meaning of disbeliever is quite defined.. we are not going to dance around in circles to conform to your needs as fits a particular post!... if it were a christian or a Jew the OP would have mentioned christian or jew or as we Muslims define them (people of the book)!

Well all these refer to God -Allah . Akal Purakh = Formless One. I may have misunderstood your point, are you stating anybody who refers to Allah with these names is regarded a non-believer also? :S

[جوري]

Well all these refer to God -Allah . Akal Purakh = Formless One. I may have misunderstood your point, are you stating anybody who refers to Allah with these names is regarded a non-believer also? :S

No, he stated he doesn't believe in Thor.. I made the point that 'Thor' isn't all he doesn't believe in..
I am quite aware that these are all names for God..
Have a sikh friend remember?

peace

[جوري]

You know, there is no compulsion for you to respond.

Does that not go both ways?

The irony is interesting.

So long as it isn't lost to you, then that is all that matters!

I have. They are all inconclusive.

A shame.. you might want to invest in some basic lingual training to foster greater comprehension!

The above is meaningless rhetoric. What about my attitude?

No-- not meaningless.. you are wasting web space on mindless drivel!.. and that in fact needs to be mentioned.
As for your attitude, it is exactly the leverage I needed to make a point on how engaging an atheist is a complete and utter waste of time!


cheers

[Skavau]

Does that not go both ways?

Yes.

A shame.. you might want to invest in some basic lingual training to foster greater comprehension!

I have been keeping up with this conversation. Not once have you offered a direct answer to my question.

No-- not meaningless.. you are wasting web space on mindless drivel!.. and that in fact needs to be mentioned.
As for your attitude, it is exactly the leverage I needed to make a point on how engaging an atheist is a complete and utter waste of time!

So how you perceive me is indicative of all Atheists?

[AvarAllahNoor]

You are probably right, I was just thinking about it before reading your latest... but the Quran also addresses 'Ahel ilkitab'--people of the book on multitudes of occasions..
perhaps kaffirs are those who deny his books and messengers (the divine books) Sikhs/hindues shintus/buddhists/atheists but I highly doubt ahel ilkitab are kaffirs.. it just doesn't go with the word in Arabic.. the actual meaning of the world means someone who disbelieves!!!



:w:

Sikhs do not deny the Messengers. You should try to find out what this word covers. It's said (trying to find article) that Sikhs were not regarded as Kaffirs by Muslims, because of our belief in the One Supreme Master.

[AvarAllahNoor]

No, he stated he doesn't believe in Thor.. I made the point that 'Thor' isn't all he doesn't believe in..

I am quite aware that these are all names for God..
Have a sikh friend remember?

peace

I know. Just misunderstood your post. :sunny:

Gur Fateh.

[جوري]

Sikhs do not deny the Messengers. You should try to find out what this word covers. It's said (trying to find article) that Sikhs were not regarded as Kaffirs by Muslims, because of our belief in the One Supreme Master.

Indeed, that is what I thought yesterday, a kaffir only = to an atheist as offered in all dictionaries including Arabic, but she offered evidence to the contrary.. I don't know that her opinion or interpretation of the verses is scholarly as certainly an atheist can indulge in self-worship, worldly worship, money worship or whatever as it is instinctive in all of us to seek fulfillment to that side of us? until such a time when a scholar can shed more light on this, each will hold on to his opinion..

I can't give you one either way and pass it as a fact.. laws in jurisprudence aren't subject to whim and desires, people go to school for this, just like people go to law school or medical school-- I can say in an uneducated way that to me it is obvious a kaffir to equal only to an atheist, but can't make that point with any assertion. I am not nor claim to be a Muslim scholar, and won't pass random opinion as fact simply to assert my position and save face!

I am here learning just like everyone else..

peace

[Woodrow]

The Qur'an does have ayyats that distinguish between Yahuda, Nazaar and Kufir.

I believe it is understandable to interpret Kafir as Atheist.

2:62. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. S P C


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation