Was the Prophet Illiterate or Literate?

[AntiKarateKid]

I am confused about this because I have heard a couple different opinions. Does anyone have a definitive answer?

[truemuslim]

im not sure...BUT when the angel jibril came to him and told him to read he said he cant and the angel told him to read and he said he cant and all that then he somehow was able to read by the miracles of allah...mashallah...so i think he was only literate for the quran or maybe he was able to read after he read the quran..not sure.sorry

:w:

[truemuslim]

OH NEVERMIND I GOTTA ANSWER!!

Q. Muslims only claim that Muhammad was illiterate because they do not wish to admit that he wrote the Qur'an. They want to substantiate the miraculous nature of the Qur'an by claiming that Muhammad could not write.
A. The prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was indeed illiterate. This fact of history will not change even if Muslims or non-Muslims wish it were otherwise. The Qur'an is a source contemporary with the Prophet. This book acknowledges that the prophet could neither read nor write. Even Dr. Anis Shorrosh, admits that biological references in the Qur'an are invaluable because they are contemporary with Muhammad (Islam Revealed, p. 47).
Here are some Qur'anic references to the illiteracy of the prophet: 7:157; 29:46; 62:2
If Muhammad were indeed literate Muslims would not need to hide it. The fact that God revealed the Qur'an would not change even if Muhammad were literate. When his contemporaries heard the Qur'an many remarked: "This is no less than divine speech." Those who believed saw it not as the speech of a literate man but as the speech of no man whether literate or illiterate.

hope that helps...:w:

[sabah]

:sl:

The prophet (pbuh) was indeed illiterate, this makes the revalation a miracle in its self. In 610 AD he was visited in the cave during his sleep by the archangel Gabriel with a paper in his hand. Gabriel demanded, "read". Muhammad responded, "I don't read". Gabriel choked Muhammad for an instant then repeated his demand and Muhammad repeated his response. Gabriel choked Muhammad again for an instant and repeated his demand. Fearing to be choked for a third time, Muhammad asked, "Read what?" Gabriel responded, "Read in the name of your Lord who created... [Qur'an 96 :1]"

:w:

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[AntiKarateKid]

quick question, what do mean gabriel "choked" him?

[truemuslim]

^ lol seriously...angels 'choked' ?

[AntiKarateKid]

I am confused as this site says otherwise

[truemuslim]

that site is trying to confuse ppl... the prophet wasnt able to read anything until the quran was brought down and that was a miracle of allah both the quaan being brought down and that he was able to read..

[AntiKarateKid]

I understand well that the Prophet was illiterate but the fact that this is a MUSLIM site claiming otherwise is strange and I was looking for a refutation of their points bro.

[Samkurd]

Apparantly he was illiterate but Allah gave him the ability to read and write when he began to write the holy Qur'an.

[al-basit]

He didn't choke him, he squeezed the Rasool(SAWS).

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I understand well that the Prophet was illiterate but the fact that this is a MUSLIM site claiming otherwise is strange and I was looking for a refutation of their points bro.

A very interesting article - thanks for posting it.

It refers to letters written by the Prophet (pbuh). Is there anyone here with the knowledge to comment on how authentic these letters are meant to be? Are they forgeries of some kind, perhaps?

Peace

[truemuslim]

I understand well that the Prophet was illiterate but the fact that this is a MUSLIM site claiming otherwise is strange and I was looking for a refutation of their points bro.

sorry i cant prove they are wrong...

wait...i can...QURAN .lol

[truemuslim]

and ok that makes more sense abdul basit.

[Whatsthepoint]

[url]

LINK REMOVED

I am confused as this site says otherwise

I posted the link before but the mods deleted it as it is supposed to be unislamic.
There are many sites muslim by name that are in fact unislamic..

[truemuslim]

^yep...exactly

[Whatsthepoint]

The prophet (pbuh) was indeed illiterate, this makes the revalation a miracle in its self.

Why is that?
Quran is not that long of a book and it doesn't seem to be hard to remember, there's a topic about a guy who needed two months or so. How long did it take for the entire Quran to be revealed?
I'm sure you're gonna say, there's miracles in the Quran.... the only thing I perceive as "miracles" are the numerical oddities, which given the amount of time Muhammad had for the creation of the Quran and obvious intelligence he possessed, can't have been that hard to incorporate in a book, regardless of his (il)literracy. The human mind is an extraordinary thing.

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

I am confused as this site says otherwise

:sl:

Yeah that site's the problem. Don't take from them as they are not considered Muslims by the consensus of the Muslims. They follow a man called Rashad Khalifa who tried to remove verses from the Qur'an and claimed himself as a Prophet, and these people are his followers. Following them and reading their material will only lead one away from Islam, so guard yourself.

As for the original question, then yes, indeed the Messenger was illiterate, and this fact isn't something Muslims ought to hide or be ashamed of; in fact it is honor and a decisive proof of his Prophethood and truthfulness that he was illiterate as an illiterate man cannot come up with the likes of the literary perfection of the Qur'an. Therefore the Qur'an cannot be anything else except revelation from Allaah.

The proof of this is in the Qur'an itself:

{Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them. He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong. He will make lawful for them all good things and prohibit for them only the foul; and he will relieve them of their burden and the fetters that they used to wear. Then those who believe in him, and honour him, and help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him: they are the successful. Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth. There is no Allah save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.}[al-'Araf; 157-158]

[Rezvana]

Salams everyone

I believe that we should not refer to our beloved Prophet (pbuh) as illiterate as that is most disrespectful, the correct term is that the Prophet (pbuh) was unlearned.
Allah knows best
wasalam
Rezvana

[BlackMamba]

I think unlearned is more disrespectful than illiterate

[FatimaAsSideqah]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

First of all, I’d like to state that Almighty Allah chose Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) even though he had grown up as an orphan and was totally illiterate. All good qualities and virtues reached ultimate perfection and were firmly established in him, which no one else can attain except the prophets whom Allah has protected and guided. This combination of perfect qualities is one of the greatest proofs of the truth of his Prophethood (peace and blessings be upon him). He acquired his knowledge direct from Allah. He was not taught by any human being, but he was the "City of Knowledge".

Almighty Allah says: (And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood.) (Al-`Ankabut 29: 48) He also says: (Those who follow the messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them …) (Al-A`raf 7: 157)

Allah Hafiz
Sister Fatima

[snakelegs]

[url]

LINK REMOVED

I am confused as this site says otherwise

that site is for muslims who completely reject the hadith = not mainstream muslims.

[FatimaAsSideqah]

that site is for muslims who completely reject the hadith = not mainstream muslims.

Thats is right. This link is UnIslamic site. We Muslims who completely rejected it because the Hadith is unauthentic.

Peace be upon you.

Sister Fatima

[جوري]

Why is that?
Quran is not that long of a book and it doesn't seem to be hard to remember, there's a topic about a guy who needed two months or so. How long did it take for the entire Quran to be revealed?
I'm sure you're gonna say, there's miracles in the Quran.... the only thing I perceive as "miracles" are the numerical oddities, which given the amount of time Muhammad had for the creation of the Quran and obvious intelligence he possessed, can't have been that hard to incorporate in a book, regardless of his (il)literracy. The human mind is an extraordinary thing.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
there are 114 chapters 6236 verses in the Quran whilst there are 260 chapters 7958 verses in the NT... go ahead and confirm that for yourself... So I fail to see why it should take years to read the NT whereas the Quran or the OT can be covered in a shorter span of time say a (month)?... it is also one thing to read the book and a whole other thing to discern and understand what you are reading...

I can cover Marker a 672 page book by Robin Cook in as much time as it took me to board from London Heathrow to New York JFK, and it will be satisfactory read--whereas a comparable book in thickness--like Wheater's Functional Histology (413 pages) slightly less page wise ( would take me 3 months to read-- & a life time's experience to implement and become familiar with its contents as relates to my every day needs-- and maybe even supplement it with Robbins Review of Pathology) for the whole picture to be adequate!

that is from another post of mine
Now, I have nine volumes right here in my library of bukhari and Muslim.. they are the sayings of the prophet (could possibly be compared to the bible) writing wise.. until you can reconcile the difference in style/language/content/poetry of the Quran with that of hadith, it will remain the last and only existing 'miracle' to modern day!...


peace

[NYCmuslim]

Peace

Honest question: How was Muhammad (pbuh) able to conduct trading and business transactions being illiterate? Anyone know specifically how he or arabs in general did business back then? Were they done verbally? Thanks.

:w:

[truemuslim]

^ well im guessin it wasnt wit contracts and officework things and all..lol

[snakelegs]

Peace

Honest question: How was Muhammad (pbuh) able to conduct trading and business transactions being illiterate? Anyone know specifically how he or arabs in general did business back then? Were they done verbally? Thanks.

:w:

i don't know the answer to your specific question - altho i think you could learn how to write numbers and still be illiterate.
the vast majority of people were illiterate - but they had a rich oral culture, including poetry - and they had it all in their memory!

[جوري]

you can't have oral transactions?
I have seen many illitrate women, who could still go to the market place and do shopping, and tell numbers and distinguish between currencies by look.. can you tell the difference between a nickle and a dime without reading the numbers on them?
people possess the ability for visual object recognition.. people who fail to recognize objects have various types of agnosia, they have damage to the temporal/parietal/occipital lobes in part or in whole.. we have object recognition on many levels (Visual/apperceptive/associative/integrative/category specific) the majority don't require that you be literate for the process..

:w:

[snakelegs]

I think unlearned is more disrespectful than illiterate

i disagree. there is nothing negative about being illiterate - it just means you don't know how to read. you can be learned and illiterate at the same time. there were illiterate people who had a rich body of "literature" - all shared orally and stored in their memory.

[Whatsthepoint]

that is from another post of mine
Now, I have nine volumes right here in my library of bukhari and Muslim.. they are the sayings of the prophet (could possibly be compared to the bible) writing wise.. until you can reconcile the difference in style/language/content/poetry of the Quran with that of hadith, it will remain the last and only existing 'miracle' to modern day!...
peace

Is Muhammad's style the same in all collections of hadiths?

[Whatsthepoint]

Is Muhammad's style the same in all collections of hadiths?

And of course, how are the styles (Quran : ahdiths) different?
Do you think it is unuasual for someone to use different sytles in creating a work of literature and common communication?

[YusufNoor]

And of course, how are the styles different?
Do you think it is unuasual for someone to use different sytles in creating a work of literature and common communication?

:sl:

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

first of all, i believe the word we are all trying to remember is unlettered!

with that out of the way, i wanted to address Whatsthepoint. while not directly answering that quote above, check out this if you have the wherewithall:

http://www.nazirakoob.com/menk/Tafseer2005.html

Mufti Ismail Menk does a Tafseer after Taraweh every year and it is sent out live to 120 countries and is recorded as well. Mufti Menk's Tafseer that year was on Asbab un Nazool, or Reasons of Revelation. the 23 years of revelation are covered and Mufti Menk is SPECTACULAR in these lectures. one of the things you will note and Menk points out as well is that there is a DIFFERENCE between Qur'an and Hadeeth! you can HEAR IT! as unlettered as the Prophet, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam was, his speech was very good if not the best, just not as good as the Qur'an. you'll hear lots of both in these lectures. i highly recommend that you and every one else listen to these.

another point that i don't have time to make [gotta get ready for prayer] is that the Prophet ,Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam is REBUKED in the Qur'an and there are instances of the Qur'an CONTRADICTING him! you REALLY should listen to this!

:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

:sl:

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

first of all, i believe the word we are all trying to remember is unlettered!

with that out of the way, i wanted to address Whatsthepoint. while not directly answering that quote above, check out this if you have the wherewithall:

http://www.nazirakoob.com/menk/Tafseer2005.html

Mufti Ismail Menk does a Tafseer after Taraweh every year and it is sent out live to 120 countries and is recorded as well. Mufti Menk's Tafseer that year was on Asbab un Nazool, or Reasons of Revelation. the 23 years of revelation are covered and Mufti Menk is SPECTACULAR in these lectures. one of the things you will note and Menk points out as well is that there is a DIFFERENCE between Qur'an and Hadeeth! you can HEAR IT! as unlettered as the Prophet, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam was, his speech was very good if not the best, just not as good as the Qur'an. you'll hear lots of both in these lectures. i highly recommend that you and every one else listen to these.
:w:

I don't have time right now, and I don't think I'm ever gonna listen the entire lecture, so could you please summarize it? After you've done your praying, of course.

another point that i don't have time to make [gotta get ready for prayer] is that the Prophet ,Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam is REBUKED in the Qur'an and there are instances of the Qur'an CONTRADICTING him! you REALLY should listen to this!

So?
This could be a way of saying God is superior to Muhammad, that Muhammadad is a mere human and therefore fallible whereas Allah isn't. Or it could be his way of dealing with mistakes.
Muhammad may have believed what he was preachign so he could have percieved his internal spiritual/moral changes to come from God.
Etc etc.
IMHO we should always seek explanations other than supernatural ones.

[ummsara1108]

:sl:

The prophet (pbuh) was indeed illiterate, this makes the revalation a miracle in its self. In 610 AD he was visited in the cave during his sleep by the archangel Gabriel with a paper in his hand. Gabriel demanded, "read". Muhammad responded, "I don't read". Gabriel choked Muhammad for an instant then repeated his demand and Muhammad repeated his response. Gabriel choked Muhammad again for an instant and repeated his demand. Fearing to be choked for a third time, Muhammad asked, "Read what?" Gabriel responded, "Read in the name of your Lord who created... [Qur'an 96 :1]":w:

How can something so beautiful sent from God, choke someone and demand him to do anything? obsered, unbelieveable, not true...

But a for the rest of the story besides the choking and demanding, it's all a true story.

[ummsara1108]

I don't have time right now, and I don't think I'm ever gonna listen the entire lecture, so could you please summarize it? After you've done your praying, of course.

It's best to seek knowledge from a higher more educated person that studies these things, not just what someone might just say because they heard it one day.

I think if you don't have time, then perhaps one day you will make time, summerizing only cause's confusion.

There are some great speeches by Yusif Estes, A Christian Preacher Convert. @

www.Islamalways.com

and the korans in english/arabic are always free, get one today...

[YusufNoor]

I don't have time right now, and I don't think I'm ever gonna listen the entire lecture, so could you please summarize it? After you've done your praying, of course.

it's 30 lectures, only about 17 or 18 hours. why not learn something about the Qur'an, Prophet, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam or Religion before making all of your judgements? you'll be better equipped to make your points. and actually, i know a Hafz who was totally blown away by the first couple of cds[i have it on cd, mp3 as well]; he said he learned more about the Qur'an in 3 hours than he learned in his entire life! so instead of spamming for a while, don't be afraid to listen...

So?
This could be a way of saying God is superior to Muhammad, that Muhammadad is a mere human and therefore fallible whereas Allah isn't. Or it could be his way of dealing with mistakes.
Muhammad may have believed what he was preachign so he could have percieved his internal spiritual/moral changes to come from God.
Etc etc.
IMHO we should always seek explanations other than supernatural ones.

:sl:

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance



He Frowned Surah 80

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

[80.1] He frowned and turned (his) back,
[80.2] Because there came to him the blind man.
[80.3] And what would make you know that he would purify himself,
[80.4] Or become reminded so that the reminder should profit him?

the Prophet Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam was trying to convert the leaders of Quraish and literally turned his back on the blind man who was trying to ask him some questions about Islam. this blind man became Muslim and would be the Imam when the Prophet Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam was away on campaign. he later died a martyr in battle [he held the banner.]

[80.5] As for him who considers himself free from need (of you),
[80.6] To him do you address yourself.
[80.7] And no blame is on you if he would not purify himself
[80.8] And as to him who comes to you striving hard,
[80.9] And he fears,
[80.10] From him will you divert yourself.
[80.11] Nay! surely it is an admonishment.
[80.12] So let him who pleases mind it.
[80.13] In honored books,
[80.14] Exalted, purified,
[80.15] In the hands of scribes
[80.16] Noble, virtuous.
[80.17] Cursed be man! how ungrateful is he!
[80.18] Of what thing did He create him?
[80.19] Of a small seed; He created him, then He made him according to a measure,
[80.20] Then (as for) the way-- He has made it easy (for him)
[80.21] Then He causes him to die, then assigns to him a grave,
[80.22] Then when He pleases, He will raise him to life again.
[80.23] Nay; but he has not done what He bade him.
[80.24] Then let man look to his food,
[80.25] That We pour down the water, pouring (it) down in abundance,
[80.26] Then We cleave the earth, cleaving (it) asunder,
[80.27] Then We cause to grow therein the grain,
[80.28] And grapes and clover,
[80.29] And the olive and the palm,
[80.30] And thick gardens,
[80.31] And fruits and herbage
[80.32] A provision for you and for your cattle.
[80.33] But when the deafening cry comes,
[80.34] The day on which a man shall fly from his brother,
[80.35] And his mother and his father,
[80.36] And his spouse and his son--
[80.37] Every man of them shall on that day have an affair which will occupy him.
[80.38] (Many) faces on that day shall be bright,
[80.39] Laughing, joyous.
[80.40] And (many) faces on that day, on them shall be dust,
[80.41] Darkness shall cover them.
[80.42] These are they who are unbelievers, the wicked.

sorry after prayer, there's work!

:w:

[sur]

Peace

Honest question: How was Muhammad (pbuh) able to conduct trading and business transactions being illiterate? Anyone know specifically how he or arabs in general did business back then? Were they done verbally? Thanks.

:w:

u might not believe, but we have in my country businessmen who r billionires who r "angoothaa-chaap" = "can't even sign so use thumb print instead, for dealings" = "totally illiterate"


don't think 1400+ years back businesses were done with all those paper works/banks etc we have now.

[sur]

I am confused about this because I have heard a couple different opinions. Does anyone have a definitive answer?

these r evidences that site uses:-

"Read! In the name of your Lord who creates...." (96:1)

don't u know what Prophet replied to this, "I can't read"

Bukhari:1:3:-
Narated By 'Aisha : (The mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read."

"Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night," Quran 25:4-5

these were allegations of his opponants.
Like Quran says "they say God has taken a son," so would u believe that God has a son??? NO. It's just an allegation of those who don't know.



As far as letters that prophet wrote r concerned, when a head of state writes letter to another, he doesn't type it himself, he dictates & his assistant writes it down. Still we say "President wrote a letter". Same way Ahadees use word that Prophet wrote to so & so.


If prophet could write why would he have so many Khutabs who use to write revelation for him!!! Like this one:-
Bukhari:56:814:-
There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write for the Prophet

[YusufNoor]

It's best to seek knowledge from a higher more educated person that studies these things, not just what someone might just say because they heard it one day.

I think if you don't have time, then perhaps one day you will make time, summerizing only cause's confusion.

There are some great speeches by Yusif Estes, A Christian Preacher Convert. @

www.Islamalways.com

and the korans in english/arabic are always free, get one today...

you know she has a point:

Originally posted by ummsara1108
What no bithdays?

Would it make it ok, if we celebrated it in our birth place?

Don't muslims make a point to goto Muhammads birth place, Madina? Isn't it part of Hajj to pay visit to Madina as well as other places like Mecca?

:sl:

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

for the record the Prophet, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam was born in Makkah, he MAY have been conceived in Madinah; and unless i missed the news, we go to Makkah for Hajj! :D

back to work!

:w:

[sabah]

How can something so beautiful sent from God, choke someone and demand him to do anything? obsered, unbelieveable, not true...

But a for the rest of the story besides the choking and demanding, it's all a true story.

peace be upon you

The word choke is not taken from the quran, it was word of man. I can across it on an islamic website in which i believe shouldnt be taken literaly. so basicly my bad!! lol :okay:

[جوري]

Is Muhammad's style the same in all collections of hadiths?

yes they are..

the Quran however is written in its entirety like a poem..whether the verses were revealed in mecca or medina, 14 days apart or 22 years apart, it matched perfectly in style, context, meaning, rhyme.. if you think that is a small feat especially in a language like Arabic, then what can I say you are entitled to your convictions
as br. woodrow would say imagine the constitution to the Tune of the william Tell overture and still have it make sense.

cheers

[Fishman]

[URL]
LINK REMOVED

I am confused as this site says otherwise

:sl:
That's because the Submitters are Hadith-rejectors. They follow the 'Quran-Only' movement, a minor sect which believes either that all the Hadith are fake or, even worse, that Hadith don't matter.
:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

it's 30 lectures, only about 17 or 18 hours. why not learn something about the Qur'an, Prophet, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam or Religion before making all of your judgements? you'll be better equipped to make your points. and actually, i know a Hafz who was totally blown away by the first couple of cds[i have it on cd, mp3 as well]; he said he learned more about the Qur'an in 3 hours than he learned in his entire life! so instead of spamming for a while, don't be afraid to listen...

18 hours is a lot, especially if one has to listen a religious source talking about the religion they adhere to..

[sur]

yes they are..

the Quran however is written in its entirety like a poem..whether the verses were revealed in mecca or medina, 14 days apart or 22 years apart, it matched perfectly in style, context, meaning, rhyme.. if you think that is a small feat especially in a language like Arabic, then what can I say you are entitled to your convictions
as br. woodrow would say imagine the constitution to the Tune of the william Tell overture and still have it make sense.

cheers

Poetry always have little or more fiction & exaggerration.
Quran though rhyming at times is NOT poetry. Calling it poetry is like making same allegations that enemies of Prophet made.


[36:69] We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Quran making things clear:

[37:36] And say: "What! shall we give up our gods for the sake of a Poet possessed?"

[52:30] Or do they say:- "A Poet! we await for him some calamity (hatched) by Time!"

[069:041] It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!

[Whatsthepoint]

yes they are..
interesting..:smile:
the Quran however is written in its entirety like a poem..whether the verses were revealed in mecca or medina, 14 days apart or 22 years apart, it matched perfectly in style, context, meaning, rhyme.. if you think that is a small feat especially in a language like Arabic, then what can I say you are entitled to your convictions
as br. woodrow would say imagine the constitution to the Tune of the william Tell overture and still have it make sense.

cheers

Yes, I am entitled to my convictions.
Let's say I believe your claims are true.. It's perfectly possible to sustain the same style, rhyme, meaning etc in surahs produced years apart, considering the fact that Muhammad memorized every surah that had been produced before and perhaps had already been planning surahs to come.
An even if such an achievement were highly unlikely... it would be more likely than any God-related explanation.

[جوري]

I don't understand your explanation?
further it doesn't reconcile with the history behind the suras, take suret al-kahf for instance if you read the history behind it, you'd realize your explanation is nonsensical.

as for the likely or unlikely, you'll have to resolve that on your own time.. I was once there before.
I have gone through every logical explanation.
There is none!

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

I don't understand your explanation?
further it doesn't reconcile with the history behind the suras, take suret al-kahf for instance if you read the history behind it, you'd realize your explanation is nonsensical.
I have read the wiki article about it and failed to realize how it make my explanation nonsensical. It does make one part of it unlikely to be true for this particular surah.

as for the likely or unlikely, you'll have to resolve that on your own time.. I was once there before.
I have gone through every logical explanation.
There is none!
I disagree.

peace

Is there a surah, resulting in a question or a rebutal, that was produced/revealed at the spot?

[جوري]

you say

considering the fact that Muhammad memorized every surah that had been produced before and perhaps had already been planning surahs to come.

I say, in suret al kahf as a brief and one of many examples, he was expected to come up with a 'story' never told or known in all of Arabia or mentioned else where in previous scripturs, and he said (SAW) ok, but didn't say 'insha'Allah' if so Allah wills, which is another moral to the story, needless to say, no (wa7i) came unto him, for two weeks, as is in verse
18:23

THE CAVE

them. Hence, do not argue about them otherwise than by way of an obvious argument,32 and do not ask any of those [story-tellers] to enlighten thee about them."

(23) AND NEVER say about anything, "Behold, I shall do this tomorrow," (24) without (adding], "if God so wills."" And if thou shouldst forget [thyself at the time, and become aware of it later], call thy Sustainer to mind and say: "I pray that my Sustainer guide me, even closer than this, to a consciousness of what is right!"

afterwards the verses of zhu el-qarnyen and the dwellers of the cave were revealed unto him.

now that should cover the subject of memorized them before hand.. you'd think he'd have relieved himself from the taunting of the Jews and christians of Mecca..

I ask, do you not think we have all explored these options?
when the sura was revealed to produce a sura like ay of the Quran be it like the shortest (suret al-kawthar) not one poet at the was able to, it is inimitable..
someone came up with 'al feel ma alfeel maa adrak ma alfeel, zolomoho taweel wa zhylo qaseer' to match with the style of rhyme, but the subject was nonesense, it literally translates to ' the elephant what do you know of the elephant, his trunk is long, his tail is short'
yes that was the one of the many attempts tried by people of the time..

'when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth'
you work this out in your mind, and until you can come up with a convincing explanation, again it will remain what it is. The last and only remaining miracle to modern day!

you listen to a sura, and find me like it, in any previous scripture, you find me like it by the numerous teachings and sayings of the same man whom it was revealed to, you find me like it, in the community and the place where it was revealed, and after you are done with all of the above, you bring me a plausible motive for him to have done all of this, and then we'll consider different truths...

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peace

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


If the Prophet (peace be upon him) never got revelation from Allah, it's amazing how he could know so much events which would occur in the future.


http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...rophecies.html



That show's that he got some knowledge off a divine source - One who knows the past, present and future.


If you argue that the likes of nostradamous did similar, then indeed he had many false 'prophecies' which did not occur. Many of his 'prophecies' were also not clear cut, whereas the Prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) were so clear, all of them which are authentic did take place (hundreds if not thousands have taken place throughout our history) and there are many more which have to take place yet. You can refer to the link which i have given above for the details.

[YusufNoor]

Is there a surah, resulting in a question or a rebutal, that was produced/revealed at the spot?

:sl:

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

using the word "revealed," absolutely but for Ayats. once the community was set up in Medinah, the Mu'mins used to go to the Prophet, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam, with their problems and hope for revelation to instruct them.

there's an issue of divorce [that i haven't had time to find yet, but...] and older woman comes to the Prophet, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam, to tell him that her husband has divorced her and she demands that the divorce be put aside, iirc. the Prophet, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam tels her to have Sabr and that's it. she's NOT happy with the answer and listening to the story you can almost feel the tension in the air when suddenly, BOOM, revelation comes down and another Ayah dealing with divorce is revealed!

the SAME woman is in 2 other different stories that i have heard. one is that Umar ibn al Kittaab, RadiAllahu Anhu, stops the entire army while talking with this woman, folks start to get riled and want to move on but he [Umar] is NOT having it. after he tells them who she was and that if Allah Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala listen to her fom above the seventh heaven then who is he to not listen to her. [that is from Menk]

another is from the Seerah set that Qatada posted in which Umar ibn al Kittaab RadiAllahu Anhu, is the Kalifa and he's walking down the street with another of the believers and this woman approaches Umar and starts telling him how he needs to fear Allah Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala. his companion wants to dismiss her and Umar stops him. when she is finished admonishing him [Umar ibn al Kittaab RadiAllahu Anhu], he tells his companion who she was and that Allah Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala listen to her fom above the seventh heaven. he then tells him that if she chose to continue, he{Umar] would have left ONLY for Salah, but immediately returned to alllow her to continue!

however, rarely were whole Surahs revealed, excepting Yusuf and some of the smaller Mekkian Surahs. and Umar ibn al Kittaab RadiAllahu Anhu has an amazing relationship with revelation as more than once revelation came down as Umar had previously spoke!

you should listen to 3 or 4 parts of the Menk to get an idea of the history behind the Qur'an. if you KNOW the history, then regardless of what miracles are in the Qur'an, then you realize the Qur'an is itself the Miracle!

:w:

[Whatsthepoint]

PA:

It seems you may have misunderstood me...when I said he memorized every surah that had been produced before I wanted to show how I think he kept in touch with the style, rhyme etc. I don't think he thought of the entire Quran and decided to reveal it in parts.
I do think he produced the surahs though, I don't know why it ahd taken him 15 days to produce this one, perhaps he was feeling under the weather, he could have been afraid of something and therefore uncapable of poducing it, he might have wanted to make a true masterpiece and took 2 weeks to do it, perhaps the delay itself was a statement of some sort...the possibilities are endless.

I've hard about the challenge many times. I do not speak fluent arabic, that is to say I do not speak arabic at all, so you can't expect me to be convinced by this. First, I don't think there's a way to determine whether a certain text is better than a surah and I think there's some bias on your (muslim) part when comapring the beauty of the Quran and the beauty of everything else.

you listen to a sura, and find me like it, in any previous scripture, you find me like it by the numerous teachings and sayings of the same man whom it was revealed to, you find me like it, in the community and the place where it was revealed, and after you are done with all of the above, you bring me a plausible motive for him to have done all of this, and then we'll consider different truths...

There are many motives for prophets to be prophets, some are rational, some irrational...

[- Qatada -]

Elaborating on what i said earlier, nostradamous was not clear in what he stated.


Let's read one of his 'prophecies' (from a pro nostradamous site):

In the year 1999, in the seventh month,
from the sky will come the great King of Terror,
bringing back to life the great King of the Mongols.
Before and after, Mars to reign by good fortune.

Commentary: Although the date of the event appears to be two years too early, it is important to remember thatNostradamus often wrote in anagrams. The real clue is that the date 1999 is nothing more than a numeric anagram. If we reverse the order of the “1”s and “9”s, we arrive at the date 9-11-1 (the date of the 9-11 attacks).

http://www.nostradamus101.com/prophecies/part3/

It's already clear from that, that this 'prophecy' isn't even clear cut, yet alone not even clear in meaning. Why talk figuratively and not explain it as it is if you are so truthful? Why not clearly say that an aeroplane will crash into two towers? Does that really look like a prophecy, is it even fulfilled? No. Since it doesn't even make sense.





Let's compare this to a Prophecy of Muhammad (peace be upon him):

The Prophet predicted the forms of government after him


"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

[recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (/273)]


We're under the underlined stage, and all the events before it have occured in our islamic history. Inshaa'Allaah (God willing) the rest of the prophecy will soon come into effect.


According to the hadith, the prophet (peace be upon him) will be followed by rightly guided caliphs (Abu Baker, Omar, Uthman and Ali) and after those caliphs will come hereditary leadership (the other Caliphs) and after that will come tyrannical rule (today) and after that will come a rightly guided caliphs yet again inshaa'Allaah. [God willing.]

Looking at the narration above, even someone with basic language skills can understand what is being conveyed. They don't need to interpret it in a stranger manner to fit it into their own motives. Rather, it is clear cut, it is the truth [as we see the state of the muslims today under oppressive rule without a true Khalifah/caliph.]

So who truly is the Prophet? One who conveys a message clearly without error, or one who tries to give a statement a figurative meaning, something which is not clear at all - so that people may believe in his falsehood?


Indeed the true Messenger of Allah is the one who is truthful, the one who is known even by his close relatives and even enemies to lie not even once in his lifetime! So how could he lie about the Lord of the Worlds?

[جوري]

PA:

It seems you may have misunderstood me...when I said he memorized every surah that had been produced before I wanted to show how I think he kept in touch with the style, rhyme etc. I don't think he thought of the entire Quran and decided to reveal it in parts.

I don't think you've.. I have already demonstrated whether you choose to accept it or not, that no one else was able to immitate the style of the Quran in full, as in also meaning and not just rhyme.. he himself couldn't have, evidenced by his own style which differs greately from that of the Quran.

I do think he produced the surahs though,

Who has? you can't make vacuous comments as such without backing them up... we can all think any number of things that are utterly nonsensical if we can't back them up!

I don't know why it ahd taken him 15 days to produce this one, perhaps he was feeling under the weather, he could have been afraid of something and therefore uncapable of poducing it, he might have wanted to make a true masterpiece and took 2 weeks to do it, perhaps the delay itself was a statement of some sort...the possibilities are endless.

No the possibilities are endless, short of writing that they are.. it wasn't enough that he had to come up with something matching in rhythm, style, context meaning etc. it had to be something true of history itself, how would he know of zho el qarnyen and ahel al kahf? you think the possibilities are endless, bring me one plausible possibility then!

I've hard about the challenge many times. I do not speak fluent arabic, that is to say I do not speak arabic at all, so you can't expect me to be convinced by this. First, I don't think there's a way to determine whether a certain text is better than a surah and I think there's some bias on your (muslim) part when comapring the beauty of the Quran and the beauty of everything else.

I think anyone merely listening can distinguish if something is poetic, declamatory, notfying, assuring, threatening.. so tells is medical research, people often pick up on the tone and body language than they do of actual words spoken. Other than that bias or not, please do understand, I have no vested interest whatsoever, in getting you to be convinced of one thing or another.. I merely write this to tell you, it isn't enough for you to come up with 'the reasons are endless' bring a reason forth and follow it through!

There are many motives for prophets to be prophets, some are rational, some irrational...

that doesn't tell me anything.. God is in the details!

peace

[Whatsthepoint]

:salamext:


If the Prophet (peace be upon him) never got revelation from Allah, it's amazing how he could know so much events which would occur in the future.


http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...rophecies.html



That show's that he got some knowledge off a divine source - One who knows the past, present and future.


If you argue that the likes of nostradamous did similar, then indeed he had many false 'prophecies' which did not occur. Many of his 'prophecies' were also not clear cut, whereas the Prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) were so clear, all of them which are authentic did take place (hundreds if not thousands have taken place throughout our history) and there are many more which have to take place yet. You can refer to the link which i have given above for the details.

Those aren't really impressive, they're mostly "Islam will dominate and conquer the world", and part from that Muhammad was a military genius, so it can't have been that hard for him to predict the approximate spread of it.
The others are very vague and nothing but common sense predictions.
Of course, some are interesting, but as you said, there are interesting ones in other books, sources as well.
I don't know whether there aren't any unfulfilled prophecies in the Quran, there are many people claiming the opposite. many Christians will claim that there aren't any unfulfilled ones in the Bible and I'm quite sure, if Nostradamism were a religion, there'd be no falsehoods in his writings..

"Indeed those from before you from the People of the Book (christians and jews) divided into seventy-two groups. And, indeed, this group (Muslims) will divide into seventy-three. Seventy-two groups will be in the Hellfire and one of them will be in Paradise. And it is the Jamaa'ah (group).

And as it seems, this one is wrong, Christians have divided into thousands of groups...

[- Qatada -]

"Indeed those from before you from the People of the Book (christians and jews) divided into seventy-two groups.

And, indeed, this group (Muslims) will divide into seventy-three. Seventy-two groups will be in the Hellfire and one of them will be in Paradise. And it is the Jamaa'ah (group).

And as it seems, this one is wrong, Christians have divided into thousands of groups...

I think you never read it properly, read it again - the part in bold.

Divided, and 'before you' means past tense.




About your other explanations, no - all you've done is reject them when they've become clear. Why don't you comment on the one which i mentioned in the above post?


Did Muhammad (peace be upon him) have so much knowledge by himself that the Muslims would go through these stages, and coincidently these stages happened by chance in perfect order?

Or did the world choose to obey what he wanted to 'make up'? Or maybe the Lord of the Worlds informed Him because He chooses whoever He wills to inform mankind of what He wants to convey?



He chose Muhammad (peace be upon him), the truthful one - since when is God incapable of doing anything?

[Whatsthepoint]

I don't think you've.. I have already demonstrated whether you choose to accept it or not, that no one else was able to immitate the style of the Quran in full, as in also meaning and not just rhyme.. he himself couldn't have, evidenced by his own style which differs greately from that of the Quran.
Why do you assume an author has to speak in rhymes outside his work?
Have any recent attempts been made by non-muslims native arabic speakers?
And still, Quran being the greatest work of literature in Arabic of all times is still a more valid explanation that God-did-it.

No the possibilities are endless, short of writing that they are.. it wasn't enough that he had to come up with something matching in rhythm, style, context meaning etc. it had to be something true of history itself, how would he know of zho el qarnyen and ahel al kahf? you think the possibilities are endless, bring me one plausible possibility then!
The two-horned one does not impress me, sorry.

I think anyone merely listening can distinguish if something is poetic, declamatory, notfying, assuring, threatening.. so tells is medical research, people often pick up on the tone and body language than they do of actual words spoken. Other than that bias or not, please do understand, I have no vested interest whatsoever, in getting you to be convinced of one thing or another.. I merely write this to tell you, it isn't enough for you to come up with 'the reasons are endless' bring a reason forth and follow it through!
I don't like the Arabic language, to me it sounds rather ugly, so I don't feel reassured nor threatened..
I try to!

peace

peace

[جوري]

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't think you've.. I have already demonstrated whether you choose to accept it or not, that no one else was able to immitate the style of the Quran in full, as in also meaning and not just rhyme.. he himself couldn't have, evidenced by his own style which differs greately from that of the Quran.

Originally Posted by whatisthepoint Why do you assume an author has to speak in rhymes outside his work?

what does that mean?

Have any recent attempts been made by non-muslims native arabic speakers?
And still, Quran being the greatest work of literature in Arabic of all times is still a more valid explanation that God-did-it.

I believe many have attempted throughout the centuries, and it is still open to those interested in that challenge! I find no worldly explanation for the Quran, and you may certainly be free to not believe that it is!

No the possibilities are endless, short of writing that they are.. it wasn't enough that he had to come up with something matching in rhythm, style, context meaning etc. it had to be something true of history itself, how would he know of zho el qarnyen and ahel al kahf? you think the possibilities are endless, bring me one plausible possibility then!

The two-horned one does not impress me, sorry.

I don't think it was revealed to impress you.. I mean you no offense by that of course..

I think anyone merely listening can distinguish if something is poetic, declamatory, notfying, assuring, threatening.. so tells is medical research, people often pick up on the tone and body language than they do of actual words spoken. Other than that bias or not, please do understand, I have no vested interest whatsoever, in getting you to be convinced of one thing or another.. I merely write this to tell you, it isn't enough for you to come up with 'the reasons are endless' bring a reason forth and follow it through!

I don't like the Arabic language, to me it sounds rather ugly, so I don't feel reassured nor threatened..
I try to!

Many people don't like Arabic, it sounds harsh, another remarkable thing for me personality the disparity between how it sounds in the Quran and how it sounds in real life... as for the the assurance or the threatening was a mere analogy of how the style of the spoken word has more an impact than the actual word spoken..
peace

[Whatsthepoint]

I think you never read it properly, read it again - the part in bold.
Divided, and 'before you' means past tense.
I don't think there had been 72 christian sects before the time of Muhammad, let alone 71 jewish sects..

About your other explanations, no - all you've done is reject them when they've become clear. Why don't you comment on the one which i mentioned in the above post?

Did Muhammad (peace be upon him) have so much knowledge by himself that the Muslims would go through these stages, and coincidently these stages happened by chance in perfect order?
It lists four stages, only three of which have come true, however not necessarily in the right order. There was oppression of muslims before the end of the Caliphate, namely in the Iberian penninsula and during the crusades.

And as I said before, such prophcy does not impress me all that much.
The most impressive one IMHO is the one about bedouins and high buildings..

[- Qatada -]

I don't think there had been 72 christian sects before the time of Muhammad, let alone 71 jewish sects..

I think they had been, try looking into their history. Heck, i was surprised to find out some Jewish sects believe in reincarnation. So yeah, i do believe it occurred.

And as I said before, such prophcy does not impress me all that much.

I don't really mind if it doesn't impress you, what matters to me is the lesson we extract from it about our own ummah of muslims.

The most impressive one IMHO is the one about bedouins and high buildings..

That's kool.




So yeah, we learn from this that Muhammad (peace be upon him) couldn't have made all these Prophecies up. Since there too clear and real to have been guessed.

[Whatsthepoint]

what does that mean?
Muhammad might have used a poetic stlye, spoke in rhymes etc in the Quran and used normal language in real life (hadiths).
Many people don't like Arabic, it sounds harsh, another remarkable thing for me personality the disparity between how it sounds in the Quran and how it sounds in real life... as for the the assurance or the threatening was a mere analogy of how the style of the spoken word has more an impact than the actual word spoken..
peace

Yeah, however it depends on the indivual how they will percieve them.

[Whatsthepoint]

That's kool.
Although I've realized now, it's a bit vague..

So yeah, we learn from this that Muhammad (peace be upon him) couldn't have made all these Prophecies up. Since there too clear and real to have been guessed.

They aren't that clear and real, I think he could have made them up.

:D

[جوري]

Yeah, however it depends on the indivual how they will percieve them.

The Challenge Of The Qur'an

The primary source of the missionaries' argument is here. We have also retained their pattern so as to facilitate the identification of rebuttals.

What Is The Challenge Of The Qur'an With Respect To Arabic Poetry & Prose?

What Do The Orientalists Say About The Inimitability Of The Qur'an?
I'jaz al-Qur'an (Or Inimitability Of The Qur'an) & Its Exposition
Is The Bible Inimitable?

The Famous Arabs Who took The Challenge Of The Qur'an Only To Fail

Ibn al-Mukaffa'

Musaylimah

Abu'l-cAla al-Marri

Yahya b. al-Hakam al-Ghazal

Sayyid cAli Muhammad (Also known as Bab)

Ibn al-Rawandi

Bassar bin Burd, Sahib Ibn 'Abbad & Abu'l- 'Atahiya

Did The Following Meet The Challenge?

Quss bin Sa'idah's 'Verses'

Surah al-Nurain

Surah al-Wilayah

Musaylimah & His Surahs

What Do People Say About The Qur'an & Its Grammarians?

Orientalists View About The Arab Grammarians

How Did The Qur'an Influence The Interpretation Of The Jewish Bible?

Refutation Of Grammatical Errors In The Qur'an

Grammatical Shift For The Rhetorical Purposes: Iltifat And Related Features In The Qur'an (Should be read in conjunction with the above article)

Sudden Change In Person & Number: Neal Robinson On Iltifaat

Miscellaneous

cAli bin Rabban at-Tabari's (A Christian Convert To Islam) View On The Qur'anic Style

"Those Are The High Flying Claims" (Refutation of the Christian missionary writings on the so-called "Satanic verses")

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Miracle/



thank you br. Qatada
:w:

[- Qatada -]

Muhammad might have used a poetic stlye, spoke in rhymes etc in the Quran and used normal language in real life (hadiths).

It's amazing that you know more than the contemporaries of Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

All of them knew well that he never even had the ability to make up poetry, nor did he ever make up any in his life - in public or private.



So how is it possible that he could have 'poetry' which not even the most advanced poets in arabia could compete with?



Let's read what one the most advanced poet of arabia said about the Qur'an;

2 - Ibn 'Abbas narrated:

"al-Walid bin al-Mughirah (a polytheist) came to the Messenger of Allah. The Messenger of Allah recited the Qur'an to him, and al-Walid seemed to become affected and softened by it. Abu Jahl came to know of this, so, he came to al-Walid and said: "Don't you see that your people are collecting charity for you?"

He said: "And why is that?"

Abu Jahl replied: "So that they can give it to you, as they see that you went to Muhammad to get some of his food."

al-Walid said: "Quraysh knows that I am of the wealthiest of its sons."

Abu Jahl said: "So, say to Muhammad something that would convince your people that you oppose him."

al-Walid replied: "And what can I possibly say? There is not a single man who is more knowledgable of poetry or prose than I, or even that of the Jinn, and by Allah, what he says bears no resemblance to these things. By Allah, what he says has a sweetness to it, and a charm upon it; the highest part of it is fruitful and the lowest part of it is gushing forth with bounty; it dominates and cannot be dominated, and it crushes all that is under it.""


[Reported by al-Hakim in 'al-Mustadrak' (2/506-507) and at-Tabari in 'Jami' al-Bayan' (29/156), and it is authentic]

http://www.kalamullah.com/al-quran.html

What is your explanation to that?

[- Qatada -]

They aren't that clear and real, I think he could have made them up.

:D

This post proves that you're not truthful at all, to yourself or others. And indeed those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers' - then know that Allah is not unaware of what you do, and He will inform you of what you did - and no-one will be dealt with unjustly on that Day.

[chacha_jalebi]

They aren't that clear and real, I think he could have made them up.

:D

erm now now whatssy

which ones aint clear . . .

[Whatsthepoint]

This post proves that you're not truthful at all, to yourself or others. And indeed those who disbelieve in Allah and His Messengers' - then know that Allah is not unaware of what you do, and He will inform you of what you did - and no-one will be dealt with unjustly on that Day.

How does it show that I'm not truthful?
If you can't acknowledge that the Quran does not impress all people equally, you need to clear things up.

[- Qatada -]

erm now now whatssy

which ones aint clear . . .

Ignore him, he just wants a simple way to escape the discussion. I've explained to him the ahadith - which are self explanatory - but if he chooses to deny the signs of Allah, then that is upto him. He just needs to see what happened to those before him, and those who disbelieve or believe will also die. Then those who believed and did good works will be rewarded by Allah, but those who rejected the signs of Allah and chose disbelief over belief - they will have no helper, and be punished for their own sins.

[Whatsthepoint]

erm now now whatssy

which ones aint clear . . .

not clear = vague = open to interpretation

[Whatsthepoint]

Ignore him, he just wants a simple way to escape the discussion. I've explained to him the ahadith - which are self explanatory - but if he chooses to deny the signs of Allah, then that is upto him. He just needs to see what happened to those before him, and those who disbelieve or believe will also die. Then those who believed and did good works will be rewarded by Allah, but those who rejected the signs of Allah and chose disbelief over belief - they will have no helper, and be punished for their own sins.

Now, now, let's not be arrogant!

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

Hoe do you explain the oppression of muslims that happened before the fall of the caliphate, during the hereditary leaderships etc?

[- Qatada -]

Now, now, let's not be arrogant!

It's not arrogance, rather - the one who is arrogant is the one who rejects the truth when it becomes clear to him.

Hoe do you explain the oppression of muslims that happened before the fall of the caliphate, during the hereditary leaderships etc?

This is explained in many other ahadith, which again - are Prophecies:

http://www.islamicboard.com/908026-post15.html

[chacha_jalebi]

edit

[Whatsthepoint]

It's not arrogance, rather - the one who is arrogant is the one who rejects the truth when it becomes clear to him.
Have you ever thought that "the truth" may not become clear to everyone?

This is explained in many other ahadith, which again - are Prophecies:
http://www.islamicboard.com/908026-post15.html

The hadith says there will be biting oppression after the hereditary leadership. There was oppresion during the hereditary leadership.

[MustafaMc]

I believe that we should not refer to our beloved Prophet (pbuh) as illiterate as that is most disrespectful, the correct term is that the Prophet (pbuh) was unlearned.
Allah knows best

illiterate 1: having little or no education; especially : unable to read or write
unlearned 1: possessing inadequate learning or education; especially : deficient in scholarly attainments

It seems to me that these two terms are interchangeable. I see no disrespect in saying that Muhammad (saaws) was illiterate any more than saying that he was an orphan.

I accept what the Quran says, as illustrated by others above, is the Truth.

[- Qatada -]

Whatsthepoint, refer to what i linked you to:

http://www.islamicboard.com/908026-post15.html


The hadith mentioned is:

Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 9, Book 88, Number 180:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

I heard the truthful and trusted by Allah (i.e., the Prophet) saying, "The destruction of my followers will be through the hands of young men from Quraish."

Combining the lessons from both ahadith shows to us that there will be oppression during the time of hereditary leadership, i've explained this in the link i just gave above.

The oppression may be emphasised on further in the stages of Leadership, maybe due to the extent of the oppression the muslims will go through - hence the oppression during certain periods may be at a greater level compared to another time. Therefore it is emphasised on in one hadith, and then another time period is explained in another.



As i've stated before, in Islam we don't do selective reading, we take the whole package.

[Whatsthepoint]

Combining the lessons from both ahadith shows to us that there will be oppression during the time of hereditary leadership, i've explained this in the link i just gave above.

The oppression may be emphasised on further in the stages of Leadership, maybe due to the extent of the oppression the muslims will go through - hence the oppression during certain periods may be at a greater level compared to another time. Therefore it is emphasised on in one hadith, and then another time period is explained in another.

It was you who emphasized the correct order and all. I merely pointed out that the order was not correct and it was only then you provided the other hadith. ow am I supposed to be guilty of not taking the whole package.

As i've stated before, in Islam we don't do selective reading, we take the whole package.

So do Chistians, and guess what, they too claim their book is infallible.
That's why it's difficult and useless to debate with religious people. Centuries of theology, lead by devotion like no other, have come up with an explanation for virtually every mistake/contradiction.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

This is utterly vague, as are most "prophecies". It's about as impressive as saying "something will happen; or, it may not".

How can anyone take this sort of thing seriously?

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings,



This is utterly vague, as are most "prophecies". It's about as impressive as saying "something will happen; or, it may not".

How can anyone take this sort of thing seriously?

Peace

prophecies like these are mainly for the believers gibson.

You see when we see the prophecies we remember the sayings and see it exactly as said.

i understand that the skeptics will not rely on what is vague or ambiguous.


But if you research on his past, his childhood, his life, you'll see he really was illiterate. He was never taught how to read or write with a pen. It is testified by many non-muslims and muslim historians alike.


But most of the prophecies ive heard of (which are over 50) its like i forget them, and then i actually see them and im like "subhanAllaah thats what our prophet spoke of"


well, i hope you at least realise why we take these as miraculous. And i understand why you would not :) you need to at least see him as a prophet first, then you wont make excuses and you can see it more clearly...

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,



This is utterly vague, as are most "prophecies". It's about as impressive as saying "something will happen; or, it may not".

How can anyone take this sort of thing seriously?

Peace

As it stands it is specific enough for people to realise that ''hey this is what the prophecy was refering to''. It is not too vague to be an insignificant pre-judgement (such as a group of people will get hurt) and neither is it specific enough for it to be a self-fulfilling prophecy (such as there will be a righteous[sp] male who will lead a successful nation). Such is the nature of Islam - the middle path of truth.

:)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

well, i hope you at least realise why we take these as miraculous. And i understand why you would not :) you need to at least see him as a prophet first, then you wont make excuses and you can see it more clearly...

I think that's absolutely the key point. This sort of thing is only believable if you already believe.

What I don't understand is how someone gets to that stage, given that so many of these prophecies are wide open to sceptical criticisms.

We all believe what seems credible to us, I suppose.

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings,

What I don't understand is how someone gets to that stage, given that so many of these prophecies are wide open to sceptical criticisms.

Peace

ive had many deep discussions with all sorts of people from all sorts of faith. I've come across this question many times also.

To be honest the main reason is everyone is braught up different, we're all given different experiences, what you are use to i may dislike, what you are desensitised to i may detest, what i may find beautiful you may find repulsive. But i think the choices throughout life build up to these perceptions. So what im saying is i truelly believe Allaah guides whom he wills, and gives understanding to whom he wills.

So we've both looked at it from different angles, and we've both drawn conclusions.


Faith is indeed a key, but that also comes with much experience and understanding (i wont say research, research isnt the same as experience).


hope i didnt offend in anyway,

[czgibson]

Greetings,

You make lots of good points. I think you're right to say that our different experiences will lead to us drawing different conclusions.

hope i didnt offend in anyway,

Of course not. I hope I didn't either. :)

Peace

[YusufNoor]

Greetings,

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

This is utterly vague, as are most "prophecies". It's about as impressive as saying "something will happen; or, it may not".

How can anyone take this sort of thing seriously?

Peace

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

actually we're at the end of, but let me rephrase it:


"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away.

nice starter sentence, we keep it


Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away.


Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes.


Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes.


Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

let's look at it now:

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away.

Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood.

Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership

Afterwards, there will be biting oppression

Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood,"

so we were told that AFTER the Prophet, there will be some just rulers who rule just like him. this will be followed by some kind[s] of dynasty[s]; which will result in biting oppression. HOWEVER, before the end, we WILL have Just Ruler[s] who follow the ways of the Prophet!

it's not that opaque, is it?

:w:

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

How about "peace be upon everyone"? Why be so divisive?

it's not that opaque, is it?

:w:

It's clearer after you've rephrased it, yes, but it's vague as it stands before that.

And, if Whatsthepoint is right here, inaccurate too:

The hadith says there will be biting oppression after the hereditary leadership. There was oppresion during the hereditary leadership.

Peace

[YusufNoor]

Greetings,


How about "peace be upon everyone"? Why be so divisive?

it's Sunnah when talking to non-Muslims. if i understand it correctly, it's because the usual greeting Asalaamu Alaykum is a "guarantee" of peace to the other believer. you can't guarantee it to a non-Muslim unless they "follow/observe" the guidance. i could have it wrong


It's clearer after you've rephrased it, yes, but it's vague as it stands before that.

And, if Whatsthepoint is right here, inaccurate too:

i may have punctuated incorrectly: this will be followed by some kind[s] of dynasty[s] which will result in biting oppression. the mere fact that you are letting someone govern the ummah who doesn't rule "according to the ways of the Prophet" means you will stray from the STRAIGHT PATH [in the Fatihah, said at least 17 times a day we ask Allah to "guide us to the straight path]. this straying will result in biting oppression. THAT will happen individually and /or collectively if you follow someone who doesn't teach/live/govern "according to the ways of the Prophet" .

Peace

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

i was also meaning that since we're at the other end of the prophecy, that what we are concerned with is the "reinstatement of a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. the rest, while historical, is now preamble...
:w:

[czgibson]

Greetings,

it's Sunnah when talking to non-Muslims. if i understand it correctly, it's because the usual greeting Asalaamu Alaykum is a "guarantee" of peace to the other believer. you can't guarantee it to a non-Muslim unless they "follow/observe" the guidance. i could have it wrong

So your religion encourages you to be divisive?

i may have punctuated incorrectly: this will be followed by some kind[s] of dynasty[s] which will result in biting oppression. the mere fact that you are letting someone govern the ummah who doesn't rule "according to the ways of the Prophet" means you will stray from the STRAIGHT PATH [in the Fatihah, said at least 17 times a day we ask Allah to "guide us to the straight path]. this straying will result in biting oppression. THAT will happen individually and /or collectively if you follow someone who doesn't teach/live/govern "according to the ways of the Prophet" .

i was also meaning that since we're at the other end of the prophecy, that what we are concerned with is the "reinstatement of a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. the rest, while historical, is now preamble...
:w:

I'm sure you've done a good job of interpreting the words, but the very fact that you've had to write so much by way of explanation proves that the original text is not at all clear.

Peace

[Muezzin]

...What does this all have to do with literacy or illeteracy?

[YusufNoor]

Greetings,


So your religion encourages you to be divisive?

not at all. just careful. you cannot guarantee peace to someone who has no interest in peace with you. makes perfect sense.


I'm sure you've done a good job of interpreting the words, but the very fact that you've had to write so much by way of explanation proves that the original text is not at all clear.

it was clear to Muslims!

Peace

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

are non-Muslims NOT understanding it or just doing their best to say that it's not understandable? that's generally [with a sideglance at Whatsthepoint].

don't forget. i usually close with:
:w:

:happy:

[YusufNoor]

...What does this all have to do with literacy or illeteracy?

:sl:

meh, i thought i cleared that up: the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam, was UNLETTERED!

:w:

[Muezzin]

:sl:

:sl:

meh, i thought i cleared that up: the Messenger of Allah, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam, was UNLETTERED!

:w:

I know. It's just the later posts in the thread have sort of veered away into discussions about prophecies and things

Kindly stay on-topic everybody. Thanks to those who have.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

:sl:

I know. It's just the later posts in the thread have sort of veered away into discussions about prophecies and things

Kindly stay on-topic everybody. Thanks to those who have.

There is a clear connection if you follow the thread all the way through. If the Prophet (pbuh) genuinely was illiterate, then the prophecies might carry more weight.

The discussion has moved on from the original topic in a way that seems perfectly natural to me. Is there anything wrong with that? If you think we're now onto a different topic, why not simply turn the second half of the thread into a new one of its own? That's what used to happen.

Peace

[------]

:salamext:

Don't you think that there has been enough discussion on this? :-\