Sikhism

[starfortress]

i've heard that the reason we dont eat halal, is because your are chanting the name of God while you are killing an animal. killing is impure, blood and fear is in the room, panic scenes occour and while this happends, u say the Lords name..its like praying in the bathroom astagfarallah..

if you kill, be a man and do it in your own name .dont blasfemise Gods name by doing so..

salam and peace to u bhai

Thats was a common question from sikh to the muslim, i heard that before, infact my singh friend asking that,but i dont want to get involve interfaith dialogue directly from conversation.it could bring a bad consequence due to lack of knowledge about sikh/islam relegion.

Until im asking about your sikh common practice, especially the meat slaughtered by muslim way.I never expect to get an answer such like that,infact you condem us with something thats u never understand, but its ok thats your opinion you deserve it.Thats why you being a sikh and im being a muslim.

your are chanting the name of God while you are killing an animal

We said god name is becuse to get a bless,strength and mercyful.Its funny to say your own name or"acha"or"amma"or"bhaiaa" or whatever.

you are killing an animal

We are slaughtering not killing.We not doing thats for fun or revenge or hunting.Killing is practice in battlefield,hunting,revenge,fighting and something like thats,dont you get it.Unlike the animal that raised by human.

if you kill, be a man and do it in your own name .dont blasfemise Gods name by doing so..

At least we have face to face with the subject to slaughter, we are not just chopping like that from behind.

And when youre talking or writing do it whith a mind and heart.And never using one of thats alone.

1. ISLAMIC METHOD OF SLAUGHTERING ANIMAL
ZAKKAYTUM IS A VERB DERIVED FROM THE ROOT WORD ZAKAH (TO PURIFY). ITS INFINITIVE IS TAZKIYAH WHICH MEANS PURIFICATION. THE ISLAMIC MODE OF SLAUGHTERING AN ANIMAL REQUIRES THE FOLLOWING CONDITIONS TO BE MET:
A. ANIMAL SHOULD BE SLAUGHTERED WITH SHARP OBJECT (KNIFE)
THE ANIMAL HAS TO BE SLAUGHTERED WITH A SHARP OBJECT (KNIFE) AND IN A FAST WAY SO THAT THE PAIN OF SLAUGHTER IS MINIMISED.
B. CUT WIND PIPE, THROAT AND VESSELS OF NECK
ZABIHA IS AN ARABIC WORD WHICH MEANS ‘SLAUGHTERED’. THE ‘SLAUGHTERING’ IS TO BE DONE BY CUTTING THE THROAT, WINDPIPE AND THE BLOOD VESSELS IN THE NECK CAUSING THE ANIMAL’S DEATH WITHOUT CUTTING THE SPINAL CORD.
C. BLOOD SHOULD BE DRAINED
THE BLOOD HAS TO BE DRAINED COMPLETELY BEFORE THE HEAD IS REMOVED. THE PURPOSE IS TO DRAIN OUT MOST OF THE BLOOD WHICH WOULD SERVE AS A GOOD CULTURE MEDIUM FOR MICRO ORGANISMS. THE SPINAL CORD MUST NOT BE CUT BECAUSE THE NERVE FIBRES TO THE HEART COULD BE DAMAGED DURING THE PROCESS CAUSING CARDIAC ARREST, STAGNATING THE BLOOD IN THE BLOOD VESSELS.
2. BLOOD IS A GOOD MEDIUM FOR GERMS AND BACTERIA
BLOOD IS A GOOD MEDIA OF GERMS, BACTERIA, TOXINS, ETC. THEREFORE THE MUSLIM WAY OF SLAUGHTERING IS MORE HYGIENIC AS MOST OF THE BLOOD CONTAINING GERMS, BACTERIA, TOXINS, ETC. THAT ARE THE CAUSE OF SEVERAL DISEASES ARE ELIMINATED.
3. MEAT REMAINS FRESH FOR A LONGER TIME
MEAT SLAUGHTERED BY ISLAMIC WAY REMAINS FRESH FOR A LONGER TIME DUE TO DEFICIENCY OF BLOOD IN THE MEAT AS COMPARED TO OTHER METHODS OF SLAUGHTERING.
4. ANIMAL DOES NOT FEEL PAIN
THE SWIFT CUTTING OF VESSELS OF THE NECK DISCONNECTS THE FLOW OF BLOOD TO THE NERVE OF THE BRAIN RESPONSIBLE FOR PAIN. THUS THE ANIMAL DOES NOT FEEL PAIN. WHILE DYING, THE ANIMAL STRUGGLES, WRITHERS, SHAKES AND KICKS, NOT DUE TO PAIN, BUT DUE TO THE CONTRACTION AND RELAXATION OF THE MUSCLES DEFECIENT IN BLOOD AND DUE TO THE FLOW OF BLOOD OUT OF THE BODY.

[ISDhillon]

If you were to ask the relatives of the american contractors, which would you have preferred a slow frontal cutting of the throat or a single blow to the head which one do you think they would have preferred for their loved ones? the method of killing is nasty QED no science no nothing is needed to proove it whther it be an animal or a human, their can be no justification.

No offence but I do not agree with the method of halal,

ISDhillon

[Mohsin]

No offence but I do not agree with the method of halal,

ISDhillon

its the best and the cleanest way

[ISDhillon]

its the best and the cleanest way

I have seen the videos of those executions all of them!, do you think they were clean and best for the victim, the harrowing screams and the belching of blood, watching the videos a part of me died also:offended:

Why do you think the animal is not worth more than this? is this from sunnah or koran?

ISDhillon

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Mohsin]

I have seen the videos of those executions all of them!, do you think they were clean and best for the victim, the harrowing screams and the belching of blood, watching the videos a part of me died also:offended:

Like starfortress said, they die immediately, but its only due to cardiac unrest that it happens

Why do you think the animal is not worth more than this?

We are encouraged to be kind to animals. Read this article Does Islam Encourage Kindness to Animals?

Although we are expected to be kind to animals, animals permissable to us, when required by us, can be slaughtered to eat. I will post what your favourite man Dr Zakir Naik said on this ;)

[Mohsin]

Question:

Killing an animal is a ruthless act. Why then do Muslims consume non-vegetarian food?

Answer:

‘Vegetarianism’ is now a movement the world over. Many even associate it with animal rights. Indeed, a large number of people consider the consumption of meat and other non-vegetarian products to be a violation of animal rights.

Islam enjoins mercy and compassion for all living creatures. At the same time Islam maintains that Allah has created the earth and its wondrous flora and fauna for the benefit of mankind. It is upto mankind to use every resource in this world judiciously, as a niyamat (Divine blessing) and amanat (trust) from Allah.

Let us look at various other aspects of this argument.


1. A Muslim can be a pure vegetarian


A Muslim can be a very good Muslim despite being a pure vegetarian. It is not compulsory for a Muslim to have non-vegetarian food.


2. Qur’an permits Muslims to have non-vegetarian food


The Qur’an, however permits a Muslim to have non-vegetarian food. The following Qur’anic verses are proof of this fact:

"O ye who believe! Fulfil (all) obligations. Lawful unto you (for food) are all four-footed animals with the exceptions named."
[Al-Qur’an 5:1]

"And cattle He has created for you (men): from them Ye derive warmth, and numerous benefits, And of their (meat) ye eat."
[Al-Qur’an 16:5]

"And in cattle (too) ye have an instructive example: From within their bodies We produce (milk) for you to drink; there are, in them, (besides), numerous (other) benefits for you; and of their (meat) ye eat."
[Al-Qur’an 23:21]


3. Meat is nutritious and rich in complete protein


Non-vegetarian food is a good source of excellent protein. It contains biologically complete protein i.e. all the 8 essential amino acid that are not synthesized by the body and should be supplied in the diet. Meat also contains iron, vitamin B1 and niacin.


4. Humans have Omnivorous set of teeth


If you observe the teeth of herbivorous animals like the cow, goat and sheep, you will find something strikingly similar in all of them. All these animals have a set of flat teeth i.e. suited for herbivorous diet. If you observe the set of teeth of the carnivorous animals like the lion, tiger, or leopard, they all have a set of pointed teeth i.e. suited for a carnivorous diet. If you analyze the set of teeth of humans, you find that they have flat teeth as well as pointed teeth. Thus they have teeth suited for both herbivorous as well as carnivorous food i.e. they are omnivorous. One may ask, if Almighty God wanted humans to have only vegetables, why did He provide us also with pointed teeth? It is logical that He expected us to need and to have both vegetarian as well as non-vegetarian food.


5. Human beings can digest both vegetarian and non-vegetarian food


The digestive system of herbivorous animals can digest only vegetables. The digestive system of carnivorous animals can digest only meat. But the digestive system of humans can digest both vegetarian and non-vegetarian food. If Almighty God wanted us to have only vegetables then why did He give us a digestive system that can digest both vegetarian as well as non-vegetarian food?


6. Hindu scriptures give permission to have non-vegetarian food


There are many Hindus who are strictly vegetarian. They think it is against their religion to consume non-vegetarian food. But the true fact is that the Hindu scriptures permit a person to have meat. The scriptures mention Hindu sages and saints consuming non-vegetarian food.


It is mentioned in Manu Smruti, the law book of Hindus, in chapter 5 verse 30

"The eater who eats the flesh of those to be eaten does nothing bad, even if he does it day after day, for God himself created some to be eaten and some to be eater."


Again next verse of Manu Smruti, that is, chapter 5 verse 31 says

"Eating meat is right for the sacrifice, this is traditionally known as a rule of the gods."


Further in Manu Smruti chapter 5 verse 39 and 40 says

"God himself created sacrificial animals for sacrifice, ...., therefore killing in a sacrifice is not killing."


Mahabharata Anushashan Parva chapter 88 narrates the discussion between Dharmaraj Yudhishthira and Pitamah Bhishma about what food one should offer to Pitris (ancestors) during the Shraddha (ceremony of dead) to keep them satisfied. Paragraph reads as follows:

"Yudhishthira said, "O thou of great puissance, tell me what that object is which, if dedicated to the Pitiris (dead ancestors), become inexhaustible! What Havi, again, (if offered) lasts for all time? What, indeed, is that which (if presented) becomes eternal?"

"Bhishma said, "Listen to me, O Yudhishthira, what those Havis are which persons conversant with the rituals of the Shraddha (the ceremony of dead) regard as suitable in view of Shraddha and what the fruits are that attach to each. With sesame seeds and rice and barely and Masha and water and roots and fruits, if given at Shraddhas, the pitris, O king, remain gratified for the period of a month. With fishes offered at Shraddhas, the pitris remain gratified for a period of two months. With the mutton they remain gratified for three months and with the hare for four months, with the flesh of the goat for five months, with the bacon (meat of pig) for six months, and with the flesh of birds for seven. With venison obtained from those deer that are called Prishata, they remaingratified for eight months, and with that obtained from the Ruru for nine months, and with the meat of Gavaya for ten months, With the meat of the bufffalo their gratification lasts for eleven months. With beef presented at the Shraddha, their gratification, it is said , lasts for a full year. Payasa mixed with ghee is as much acceptable to the pitris as beef. With the meat of Vadhrinasa (a large bull) the gratification of pitris lasts for twelve years. The flesh of rhinoceros, offered to the pitris on anniversaries of the lunar days on which they died, becomes inexhaustible. The potherb called Kalaska, the petals of kanchana flower, and meat of (red) goat also, thus offered, prove inexhaustible.

So but natural if you want to keep your ancestors satisfied forever, you should serve them the meat of red goat.


7. Hinduism was influenced by other religions


Though Hindu Scriptures permit its followers to have non-vegetarian food, many Hindus adopted the vegetarian system because they were influenced by other religions like Jainism.


8. Even plants have life


Certain religions have adopted pure vegetarianism as a dietary law because they are totally against the killing of living creatures. If a person can survive without killing any living creature, I would be the first person to adopt such a way of life. In the past people thought plants were lifeless. Today it is a universal fact that even plants have life. Thus their logic of not killing living creatures is not fulfilled even by being a pure vegetarian.


9. Even plants can feel pain


They further argue that plants cannot feel pain, therefore killing a plant is a lesser crime as compared to killing an animal. Today science tells us that even plants can feel pain. But the cry of the plant cannot be heard by the human being. This is due to the inability of the human ear to hear sounds that are not in the audible range i.e. 20 Hertz to 20,000 Hertz. Anything below and above this range cannot be heard by a human being. A dog can hear up to 40,000 Hertz. Thus there are silent dog whistles that have a frequency of more than 20,000 Hertz and less than 40,000 Hertz. These whistles are only heard by dogs and not by human beings. The dog recognizes the masters whistle and comes to the master. There was research done by a farmer in U.S.A. who invented an instrument which converted the cry of the plant so that it could be heard by human beings. He was able to realize immediately when the plant itself cried for water. Latest researches show that the plants can even feel happy and sad. It can also cry.


10. Killing a living creature with two senses less is not a lesser crime


Once a vegetarian argued his case by saying that plants only have two or three senses while the animals have five senses.

Therefore killing a plant is a lesser crime than killing an animal. Suppose your brother is born deaf and dumb and has two senses less as compared to other human beings. He becomes mature and someone murders him. Would you ask the judge to give the murderer a lesser punishment because your brother has two senses less? In fact you would say that he has killed a masoom, an innocent person, and the judge should give the murderer a greater punishment.

In fact the Qur’an says:

"O ye people! Eat of what is on earth, lawful and good"
[Al-Qur’an 2:168]


11. Over population of cattle


If every human being was a vegetarian, it would lead to overpopulation of cattle in the world, since their reproduction and multiplication is very swift. Allah (swt) in His Divine Wisdom knows how to maintain the balance of His creation appropriately. No wonder He has permitted us to have the meat of the cattle.


12. Cost of meat is reasonable since all aren’t non-vegetarians


I do not mind if some people are pure vegetarians. However they should not condemn non-vegetarians as ruthless. In fact if all Indians become non-vegetarians then the present non-vegetarians would be losers since the prices of meat would rise.

Source http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

[Mohsin]

Theres a sikh joke in here just for you ;)


Question:

Why do Muslims slaughter the animal in a ruthless manner by torturing it and slowly and painfully killing it?

Answer:

The Islamic method of slaughtering animals, known as Zabiha has been the object of much criticism from a large number of people.

Before I reply to the question, let me relate an incidence about a discussion between a Sikh and a Muslim regarding animal slaughter.

Once a Sikh asked a Muslim, "Why do you slaughter the animal painfully by cutting the throat instead of the way we do with one stroke i.e. jhatka?" The Muslim replied "We are brave and courageous and attack from the front. We are marad ka baccha (macho men), you are cowards and attack from behind".

Jokes apart, one may consider the following points, which prove that the Zabiha method is not only humane but also scientifically the best:


1. Islamic method of slaughtering animal


Zakkaytum is a verb derived from the root word Zakah (to purify). Its infinitive is Tazkiyah which means purification. The Islamic mode of slaughtering an animal requires the following conditions to be met:

a. Animal should be slaughtered with sharp object (knife)

The animal has to be slaughtered with a sharp object (knife) and in a fast way so that the pain of slaughter is minimised.

b. Cut wind pipe, throat and vessels of neck

Zabiha is an Arabic word which means ‘slaughtered’. The ‘slaughtering’ is to be done by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord.

c. Blood should be drained

The blood has to be drained completely before the head is removed. The purpose is to drain out most of the blood which would serve as a good culture medium for micro organisms. The spinal cord must not be cut because the nerve fibres to the heart could be damaged during the process causing cardiac arrest, stagnating the blood in the blood vessels.




2. Blood is a good medium for germs and bacteria


Blood is a good media of germs, bacteria, toxins, etc. Therefore the Muslim way of slaughtering is more hygienic as most of the blood containing germs, bacteria, toxins, etc. that are the cause of several diseases are eliminated.

3. Meat remains fresh for a longer time


Meat slaughtered by Islamic way remains fresh for a longer time due to deficiency of blood in the meat as compared to other methods of slaughtering.

4. Animal does not feel pain


The swift cutting of vessels of the neck disconnects the flow of blood to the nerve of the brain responsible for pain. Thus the animal does not feel pain. While dying, the animal struggles, writhers, shakes and kicks, not due to pain, but due to the contraction and relaxation of the muscles defecient in blood and due to the flow of blood out of the body.

Source http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

[Mohsin]

Question:

Science tell us that whatever one eats, it has an effect on one’s behaviour. Why then, does Islam allow Muslims to eat non-vegetarian food, since eating of animals could make a person violent and ferocious?

Answer:


1. Only eating of herbivorous animals allowed


I agree that, what a person eats has an effect on his behaviour. This is one of the reasons why Islam prohibits the eating of carnivorous animals like lion, tiger, leopard, etc. who are violent and ferocious. The consumption of the meat of such animals would probably make a person violent and ferocious. Islam only allows the eating of herbivorous animals like cow, goat, sheep, etc. that are peaceful and docile. We Muslims eat peaceful and docile animals because we are peace loving and non-violent people.


2. The Qur’an says Prophet prohibits what is bad


The Qur’an says:

"The Prophet commands them what is just and prohibits what is evil". "He allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them what is bad (and impure),"
[Al-Qur’an 7: 157]

"So take what the Messenger assigns to you and deny yourselves that which he withholds from you."
[Al-Qur’an 59: 7]

For a Muslim, the Prophet’s statement is sufficient to convince him that Allah does not wish humans to eat some kinds of meat while allowing some other kinds.


3. Hadith of Mohammad (pbuh) prohibiting eating of carnivorous animals

According to various authentic Ahadith narrated in Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim including hadith narrated by Ibn Abbas in Sahih Muslim, Book of hunting and slaughter, Hadith No. 4752 and Sunan Ibn-I-Majah chapter 13 Hadith no. 3232 to 3234, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) prohibited the eating of:

Wild animals with canine teeth, i.e. meat eating carnivorous animals. These are animals belonging to the cat families such as lion, tiger, cats, dogs, wolfs, hyenas, etc.

Certain rodents like mice, rats, rabbits with claws, etc.

Certain reptiles like snakes, alligators, etc.

Birds of prey with talons or claws, like vultures, eagle, crows, owl, etc

Source http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

[ISDhillon]

I have seen this on the islam channel the stuff about sikhs attack from behind cos their cowards or somthin like that funny story is all it is, however i will read this more carefull and then get back to yah.

[Mohsin]

I have seen this on the islam channel the stuff about sikhs attack from behind cos their cowards or somthin like that funny story is all it is, however i will read this more carefull and then get back to yah.

Yes like i said its just a joke. i don't know why it was on islam channel, why on earth would it be on there???? it's just a joke that must have happened between a muslim and a sikh

anyway, your question

is this from sunnah or koran?

ISDhillon

It's from the sunnah as far as i am aware, the Prophet SAW taught us how, but it doesn't matter if it was from the sunnah or the Qur'an, both count in our eyes

[ISDhillon]

OK Moss post 1 and 3 i am not concerned with i dont think its wrong to eat meat and dont think its important if it effects youre behaviour i will focus on the second post I will respond soon.

btw did someone hack into the computers last night or something i couldnt get in all night :? and then i noticed something suspicious just now, half my reps have disappeared:confused: i had well over a hundered:omg: and i have noticed moss that your reps have significantly increased since the last time you were on the forum? is their something you would like to come clean about:giggling:

ISDhillon

[ISDhillon]

Moss Ji,


“which prove that the Zabiha method is not only humane but also scientifically the best”

I prefer it to be more humane rather than scientifically the best. Meat is meat at the end of the day I have stopped cos I don’t need to eat it anymore not out of religious conviction either I just don’t feel like it is what I should be putting into my body.

“The animal has to be slaughtered with a sharp object (knife) and in a fast way so that the pain of slaughter is minimised.”

I agree the blade must be sharp and the blow must be swift.

“by cutting the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord.”

This is slower therefore less humane than one blow behind the neck and you know its comin.

“The purpose is to drain out most of the blood which would serve as a good culture medium for micro organisms.”

The slowness of death cause psychological trauma to victim this is what is known as a torturous death. Prolonging the inevitable.

“Blood is a good media of germs, bacteria, toxins, etc. Therefore the Muslim way of slaughtering is more hygienic as most of the blood containing germs, bacteria, toxins, etc. that are the cause of several diseases are eliminated.”

Agreed however blood is a good source of vitamins and nutrients also, nihang Sikhs drink the blood of sheeps during sikh festivals by chopping of the head of a sheep and drinking all the blood, they don’t seem to suffer from medical diseases. But they are a sectilike group it is not a sikh thing.


“Meat slaughtered by Islamic way remains fresh for a longer time due to deficiency of blood in the meat as compared to other methods of slaughtering.”

Agreed however bloody meat especially steak is tasty it adds to the flavour of the meal believe it or not. The problem with this argument is your either against 20 mins for death or youre getting a better meal at the end of it you see people will say “endocrine glands secrete defensive chemicals into its body system and The resulting meat will naturally be toxic and unsuitable for human consumption as opposed to meat produced from animal killed with a clean,single,sudden blow or beheading”. But I couldn’t care less about all of that if the question is about the path least torturous for an animal then the arguments are not about all this other stuff. I don’t care for science I want the animals death to be more or less instantaneous.


Anyways we are not against halal cos of the method or any of that kabir says that those who kill animals in the name of god are one thing, people who thank god for food are quite another, so by all means thank god for the food you are about to eat but don’t justify the slaughter with you’re religion as it will not be accepted by god in the hereafter as his decree. My conclusion you might have got the scientific stuff right although I have not looked into that but not the human stuff and that’s more important anybody would think their was an epidemic of dodgy non-halal.

I think that’s about the gist of it,

ISDhillon

[Mohsin]

I didn't know there were sects in sikhism, how did they come about

[ISDhillon]

I didn't know there were sects in sikhism, how did they come about

go to sikh movements:

http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/frame.htm

[unbreakable]

Yes....Kissing is not cumpolsory...Just touching is sufficient....

Iqram. Forgive me, but why would you "just touch" it?

What would be the benefit of touching this?

Does it move you closer to Waheguru/Allah?

I know that the prophet kissed it, is this why the rest of the muslims kiss it?

Can I ask, what is Sunnah?

For the record, I appologise for calling one of my Muslim brothers here stupid. But if anymore people ask stupid questions, then I shall not refrain from calling them what they are. We are extremely humble, but don't take that for our weakness.

[Abdullah4ever]

:sl:

Sunnah is the second source of sharia' after the quran. It is the way of life of the prophet (saws) wat he used to do and it is recorded in books. it is the deeds sayings and approvals of our prophet (saws)

[unbreakable]

:sl:

Sunnah is the second source of sharia' after the quran. It is the way of life of the prophet (saws) wat he used to do and it is recorded in books. it is the deeds sayings and approvals of our prophet (saws)

Thanks, would it be possible to get answers to the other questions aswell?

[Abdullah4ever]

:sl:

Ill try but explain ur question i dont get it

[unbreakable]

:sl:

Ill try but explain ur question i dont get it

Sure.

Originally Posted by Iqram
Yes....Kissing is not cumpolsory...Just touching is sufficient....

Iqram said that you don't have to kiss the stone, like many muslims do, but touching is acceptable aswell.

My question is really "simple".

What would be the benefit of touching this? From a Muslim prespective.

Does touching the stone move you closer to Waheguru/Allah?

From what Iqram said, the prophet kissed it, is this why the rest of the muslims kiss it? (or touch it)

Or is this merely a ritual?

Its really simple, if the prophet said "touch this stone and you shall have xyz benefits", then I can understand.

I guess what I am trying to understand here is, why did the prophet kiss it?

Could somebody possibly inform us about the history behind this?

[starfortress]

Sure.



Iqram said that you don't have to kiss the stone, like many muslims do, but touching is acceptable aswell.

My question is really "simple".

What would be the benefit of touching this? From a Muslim prespective.

Does touching the stone move you closer to Waheguru/Allah?

From what Iqram said, the prophet kissed it, is this why the rest of the muslims kiss it? (or touch it)

Or is this merely a ritual?

Its really simple, if the prophet said "touch this stone and you shall have xyz benefits", then I can understand.

I guess what I am trying to understand here is, why did the prophet kiss it?

Could somebody possibly inform us about the history behind this?

Salam and hallo bhai

regarding to your question, as a muslim ill trying to answer it with my knowledge.

Praise be to Allaah

What would be the benefit of touching this? From a Muslim prespective.


In my opinion the idea to touch or kiss the stone is to encourage that all muslims need to unite as one entity(uniform) by doing the same thing.In the other hands its only a Sunnah.
Sunnah means the way of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It includes everything he said, did, and approved of. We know the Sunnah from the statements called Hadiths that have been handed down from the Companions of the Prophet.
According to Islamic jurists, the Sunnah is second to fard. Fard means something is obligatory and it must be done; to neglect it without any excuse is a sin. The Sunnah is divided into confirmed (Sunnah mu’akkadah) and optional (Sunnah ghair mu’akkadah). The confirmed Sunnah also should not be neglected, though it is not as important as the fard. The optional Sunnah is recommended, but if someone neglects it, there is no sin or blame on that person.

Does touching the stone move you closer to Waheguru/Allah?

Allah(swt)will happy when his ummat are unite.

Or is this merely a ritual?

Thats not a ritual its only a Sunnah like im explain above

I guess what I am trying to understand here is, why did the prophet kiss it?

Sometimes an action is misinterpreted by people who do not know the background giving cause to it. One such action is the reverence with which Muslims look at the Black Stone in the Kaaba. Some people tend to think that Muslims worship the Black Stone or the Kaaba itself when they learn that we kiss the Black Stone during tawaf. Hence, an explanation is necessary to be given from time to time.

The Black Stone is an easily distinguished stone, placed a little below shoulder level at one corner of the Kaaba. The act of worship which is particularly associated with the Kaaba, and never stops except when the congregational prayer is held, is tawaf, which means walking round the Kaaba seven times in an anti-clockwise direction. Tawaf is one of the duties of Islamic pilgrimage and Umrah (i.e. mini-pilgrimage). It is also a recommended act of worship at all times. Moreover, it is the way to offer greeting to the Kaaba.

It is said that when Abraham completed the building of the Kaaba, with the help of his son, Ishmael, God commanded him to do the tawaf. He was not able to keep a correct count of the rounds he made. He felt that other worshipers would be similarly confused. He prayed God to give him a sign to be used for counting rounds. The Angel Gabriel brought him the Black Stone.

When one starts tawaf, and at the completion of every round, one should kiss the Black Stone or touch it with one's hands, if that is possible, or signal to it from a distance, if the place is too crowded. As one does so, one should repeat this declaration: "There is no deity save God; God is supreme." The significance of this particular action is best expressed by Omar ibn Al-Khattab, the second greatest figure among the companions of Prophet Muhammad and his second successor as ruler of the Islamic state, and a distinguished scholar. He addressed the Black Stone in these words:

"I know that you are a stone which can cause no harm or benefit. Had it not been for the fact that I saw God's messenger (peace be upon him) kissing you, I would not have kissed you."

Hope you will statisfied with this answer

chaloo

[------]

I was going to answer it but.......the bro answered it very nicely :D

[Mohsin]

We are all meant to kiss it, but its highly impossible at times so it is suffiecient to touch it. Because it came from heaven, it is said by kissing it our sins are removed

[muslimah19]

You know wat, all that we do, we will be questioned about. Allah will not not be unjust hence for every action that we do there will be proof infornt of mankind as to what we did and didnt do.

For example, had you stolen something, ofcourse on the day of judgement you will say ya allah i did not do this that and the other, you will try to hide your mistakes, but your hands will be witnesses to that act. Does that make sense. So in terms of the stone, it be act as a witness, and speak out on your behalf, and say yes so and so did perform this pilgrimage. But other than that allah knows best.

[Mohsin]

Hey Dhillon, i wana ask about the groiwng of your hair

1) Do all sikhs have to grow hair?

2) Can you show me refernces from SGGS showing you do or don't please?

3) If you do have to grow hair, can i ask why?

4) If you don't have to grow hair, then why do some people grow hair and others don't, i meet so many sikhs who don't grow their hair, yet everyone tells me you don't have to. is it simply because they are not practising

[Lion King]

Moss, I'l lattempt to answer, :)

1) Do all sikhs have to grow hair?

Yes, it was Guru Gobind Singh Ji's wish that Sikhs maintain the 5 K's. It was his hukam (order). (quote in the second answer). A Sikh is to believe in the Guru Granth Sahib as the eternal Guru, and also in the 10 Gurus (their lives & teachings - verbally or demonstrated) who led their lives as examples for Sikhs to follow.

2) Can you show me refernces from SGGS showing you do or don't please?

But you will not find it directly implemented in Guru Granth Sahib Ji because what you are looking for is a direct/superficial statement ordering you to keep hair - without the proper reason/inner depth of understanding of which, is mere ritualism.


3) If you do have to grow hair, can i ask why?

"If you wish to play the game of love, then come onto my path with your head in the palm of your hand; and once you step onto this path, give no attention to public opinion." - Guru Nanak Dev, SGGS, p.1412 (or was it p.1214??)

On Vaisakhi, 1699, Guru Gobind Singh Ji enacted this statement of Guru Nanak Dev Ji by asking the crowd for a head.

It was to implement that religion is not about passive theories about God, but a dynamic, practical relationship of love of the highest order between oneself, his divine teacher & God; and that one must be willing to let go of the attachment to live and embrace death by passing the test of true love through sacrifice. When we give our head the Guru, we sacrifice our selfish life and consciously agree to live life in accordance to the Guru by serving the community/mankind without any fear of dying.

As mentioned in one of my answers to the 5K's questions in earlier posts, when we take up the 5K's, then we take the very form of our prophet. There then is direct relation between, belief, faith & living (courageously).

It is also hard for some Sikhs to understand why thye have to keep hair, unless they know that the driving intention behind all this is Pure Love and gift of the Guru's very own personality.



4) If you don't have to grow hair, then why do some people grow hair and others don't, i meet so many sikhs who don't grow their hair, yet everyone tells me you don't have to. is it simply because they are not practising

Though Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked Sikhs to maintain their hair uncut, he never punished or put an end to those who went against or could not live upto his ideal. Sikhism is very liberal, there is no punishment for disobedience. Those who understand what a relationship is all about, will understand that it's all about 'commitment' , not commandment. Those who understand the inner meaning of the 5Ks, they understand the value and see it as a test to their commitment and embrace it as a boon of a commandment from the Guru; but those who don't understand, only see it as a meaningless commandment and think that it's all superficial and about appearances only.
Sikhs who cut their hair and still call themselves Sikhs - their own opinion and viewpoint; for the main aim of Sikhism, more than trying to categorize people into religions, is to make them realize God.

Hope this is helpful,
Lion King

[*charisma*]

Assalamu Alaikum and Greetings,

What would be the benefit of touching this? From a Muslim prespective.

Does touching the stone move you closer to Waheguru/Allah?

From what Iqram said, the prophet kissed it, is this why the rest of the muslims kiss it? (or touch it)

Or is this merely a ritual?

Its really simple, if the prophet said "touch this stone and you shall have xyz benefits", then I can understand.

I guess what I am trying to understand here is, why did the prophet kiss it?

Could somebody possibly inform us about the history behind this?

There are various reports from the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) concerning the origin of the Black Stone, but most of them are of doubtful origins. In Islam, we should not base our belief on sources which we cannot verify one hundred percent. The only fact that we can certainly establish is that it was put there by Prophet Ibrahim and Isma’eel (peace be upon them both) by the order of Almighty Allah, and the purpose of it was to indicate the beginning of Tawaf (Circumambulation of the Ka`bah).

Thus we as Muslims do not attach divine power to the stone. As `Umar ibn Al-Khattab (may Allah be pleased with him) is reported to have said: “You are just a stone that does not benefit or harm anyone, and if I had not seen the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) kissing you, I would have not done so."

So, we are simply touching or kissing the Black Stone in order to honor us with association with the great Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him); it does not imply any reverence whatsoever.

However, some other scholars have classified some of the Hadith reports concerning the Black Stone as sahih (authentic) and as such they relate some importance to the Black Stone. The prominent Saudi scholar Sheikh Muhammad Salih Al-Munajjid, quotes some of those hadiths:

Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The Black Stone came down from Jannah (Paradise).” (At-Tirmidhi)

Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) also narrated that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “When the Black Stone came down from Paradise, it was whiter than milk, but the sins of the sons of Adam made it black.” (At-Tirmidhi)

Ibn `Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) further related that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “By Allah, Allah will bring it forth on the Day of Judgment, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favor of those who touched it in sincerity.” (At-Tirmidhi)

Ibn `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) quoted the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) as saying: “Touching them both [the Black Stone and Ar-Rukn Al-Yamani] is an expiation for one’s sins.” (At-Tirmidhi)

fi aman Allah
w'salaam

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal MOSS Ji,

Apart from Lion Kings excellent response let me add further here the possible reasons why people ask this question firstly, were the gurus different from one another, Where did this idea come from of "i believe in guru number 1 or guru number 5 etc" there is only flesh of 1,2,3 etc gurshabad is one throughout all this jot is the same in all, when you say i believe in guru number 1 then what you believe in is not guru but body of number 1 which eventually died but gurshabad which is guru continued onto the next guru, and there is more to sikhism than just belief, its putting the gurus faith into practice and obeying guru ji's hukum:

Verse 214 translation by Dr Jodh Singh and Dr Dharam Singh Bachitar Natak Guru Gobind Singh ji says about guruship:

Ordinary persons consider them different in forms but the rare ones understood them as one. Those who knew them as one attained the high spiritual stages but without understanding nothing can be procured.

Therefore sri guru gobind singh is very much a 10th nanak .

Guru gobind singh created the khalsa for dharma to destroy the tyrants and guru nanak also talked about revolutions in a country ruled by tyrants in page 417 of sri guru granth sahib ji asa M1:

Sahan surti gavaiyaia sangi tamasai chaye

The kings had lost their higher consciousness, reveling in pleasure and sensuality

Babarvani phiri gayi kuyiru na roti khaye

Since Baabar's rule has been proclaimed, even the princes have no food to eat. ||5||


The guru granth sahib ji also talks about wielding the sword against the evil:

Var majh M1 p 145

Ja tudhu bhavai teg vagavahi
Sir mundi kati javahi
When it pleases You, we wield the sword, and cut off the heads of our enemies.



So the 1st and 10th guru were the same and the ideology from guru nanaks bani backs up the formation of a group of people who would fight for dharma-yudh ie sant-sipahi which is khalsa.


Rehat nama which is the code of conduct is a way of living which is espoused by the sri guru granth sahib itself for example naam and isnan:

Sri guru granth sahib var gauri M4 305-306:

Whosoever calls himself a sikh of the true guru, he gets up early in the morning and remembers the name of the true lord. He makes effort to rise early and take a bath in the ambrosial pool. Following the instructions of the guru he repeats the name of the lord and washes away his sins. And when the day dawns he sings the bani of the guru and remembers the name of the lord while sitting or standing. He who remembers my lod with every breath and loaf that gursikh wins the affection of the guru. I crave for the dust of the feet of that gursikh who not only repeat himself but also makes others repeat the name of the lord.

So the above indicates the way of practice, and the khalsa makes such a practice a requirement through its manifesto of rehat maryada therefore khalsa is the fulfilment of guru nanaks mission


Parts which ask you to be initiated? please refer to page 350 of the sri guru granth sahib ji:

Sikh sabha dikhya ka bhao,
Gurmukh sunana sacha nao

Love of the guru is initiation in the sikh congregation,
And hearing of the truthful name of the lord

This clearly indicates that naam simran and amrit initiation is important. Amrit is always equated with turning donkeys into lions, page 323 the sri guru granth sahib ji says:
Prethon kiton devta,
Tin karne hare sabhe sikh ubarian,
Prabhu kaj swarey

Turning devils into gods,
God, the doer, resurrects all the Sikhs,
And accords their task with perfection.

Finally a praise by the guru for the initiation page 171 sri guru granth sahib ji:

Hamre mastak daag dagana,
Hum karaj guru bahu sadhe,

I’m heavily indebted to the guru
And have got my forehead branded

The amrit ceremony binds a sikh to the discipline to the ceremony of truthful living.

Please ask more questions,:thankyou:

ISDhillon

[Mohsin]

masha'allah both answers r similar in ways of our islamic beliefs

a true muslim wakes up for fajr, the morning prayer. our 5 times a day prayers are like what you would see us do in the mosque, prostrating standing etc what we call salah

But we also have other prayers, throughout the day. because we believe Islam is more than a religion it's a way of life

we have a prayer (du'a) before going to sleep, waking up, changing our clothes, before eating, after eating, before relieving ourselves in the toilet, after relieving ourselves, looking in the mirror, before having sex, leaving the house, entering the house, a journey... the Prophet SAW gave us a du'a to learn for everything, they just a couple of lines long. it helps us remember allah in everything we do, to know that everything is for his sake and that all praise is due to him. Hmm interesting

Thanks for the replies. I basically have a friend who's dead proud of being a sikh, but he fashions his hair like J-Sean and is usually clean shaven. He goes parties talks 2 girls goes parties and dances and everything. he doesn't drink, and has never done anything with girls, and is genuinely a terrific guy, but he says he dnt grow his hair cos it dnt make sense to him.

But i just wana know, if it doesnt say so in the SGGS then how do u know you are supposed to grow the hair?

[ISDhillon]

Hi Moss,

When Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the khalsa he administered amrit to the 5 beloved ones after doing do he then went down on one knee himself and said to the 5 beloved ones "now give me amrit", the 5 beloved ones responded "but we gave you our heads what will you give us" and he responded I am giving you gurgaddi/guruship, this is referred to as the cosmic play because 1 guru gave 5 men amrit but it took 5 khalsa sikhs to give amrit to one guru, the guru therefore became a sikh and temporal authority became invested in the 5 beloved ones, the sri guru granth sahib ji becomes the spritual repository of the divine and he khalsa becomes the temporal repository of the divine, the guru was split. then 5 thrones of authority were created which stretch the lenght of india, and each throne has whats known as a jathedar, the jathedar is selcted through meritocracy as a spokesman for the will of the community, when the 5 jathedars gather they can issue hukumnammas (edicts) or gurmattas (divine order), this is because the 5 jathedars represent the temporal authority of the once 1 guru. Now the code of conduct was originally written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji it included 4 prohibitions : use of intoxicants, no cutting of hair, no eating of halal meat and finally no adultry. these are known as kurehits and if you break one you have to submit yourself before any 5 beloved ones and ask for punishment they may asy you to retake amrit or impose a penalty such as seva/selfless service like community service. We take authority and live according to panthic maryada and hukum because baptism is a holy sacrament where you make a personal covenent with god therefore we are architects of our own destiny and adhere to no other law system other than our bibek/conscience.

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[Mohsin]

Hi Moss,

When Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the khalsa he administered amrit to the 5 beloved ones after doing do he then went down on one knee himself and said to the 5 beloved ones "now give me amrit", the 5 beloved ones responded "but we gave you our heads what will you give us" and he responded I am giving you gurgaddi/guruship, this is referred to as the cosmic play because 1 guru gave 5 men amrit but it took 5 khalsa sikhs to give amrit to one guru, the guru therefore became a sikh and temporal authority became invested in the 5 beloved ones, the sri guru granth sahib ji becomes the spritual repository of the divine and he khalsa becomes the temporal repository of the divine, the guru was split. then 5 thrones of authority were created which stretch the lenght of india, and each throne has whats known as a jathedar, the jathedar is selcted through meritocracy as a spokesman for the will of the community, when the 5 jathedars gather they can issue hukumnammas (edicts) or gurmattas (divine order), this is because the 5 jathedars represent the temporal authority of the once 1 guru. Now the code of conduct was originally written by Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji it included 4 prohibitions : use of intoxicants, no cutting of hair, no eating of halal meat and finally no adultry. these are known as kurehits and if you break one you have to submit yourself before any 5 beloved ones and ask for punishment they may asy you to retake amrit or impose a penalty such as seva/selfless service like community service. We take authority and live according to panthic maryada and hukum because baptism is a holy sacrament where you make a personal covenent with god therefore we are architects of our own destiny and adhere to no other law system other than our bibek/conscience.

ISDhillon:thankyou:

High Dhillon i got the jist of what you were saying but i didn't understand a lot because you were using a lot of vocabulary foreign to me

what is amrit and panthic maryda

so you say you now live to your own conscience, why were the laws of before not still adhered to? So basically you don't have to do those 4 things?

[ISDhillon]

High Dhillon i got the jist of what you were saying but i didn't understand a lot because you were using a lot of vocabulary foreign to me

what is amrit and panthic maryda

so you say you now live to your own conscience, why were the laws of before not still adhered to? So basically you don't have to do those 4 things?

Amrit - the baptismal ceremony

Panthic maryada - the code of conduct which is not static and can change with reality of the times

4 kurehits are still adhered to cos thats was gods hukum to the sikhs, the consciecnce is about your instinct.

[Mohsin]

Amrit - the baptismal ceremony

Panthic maryada - the code of conduct which is not static and can change with reality of the times

4 kurehits are still adhered to cos thats was gods hukum to the sikhs, the consciecnce is about your instinct.

Ok so you are sinning if you don't grow your hair right?

So what happens if you disobey the commands? I mean you guys don't believe in heaven/hell right? So what would happen if you were to disobey these commands

[ISDhillon]

Ok so you are sinning if you don't grow your hair right?

So what happens if you disobey the commands? I mean you guys don't believe in heaven/hell right? So what would happen if you were to disobey these commands

No there is no such thing as sin, if you dont grow youre hair then you dont grow your hair period, when you are ready in youre life you take amrit it is not forced on anyone you have to prepare yourself for this step.

nothing happens if you disobey the commend, sikhism is not about do this and that will happen, when you take amrit you aspire to be gurmukh it is a gradual life commitment not an overnight transformation.

nothing happens if you dont obey these commandments, you do what you do out of love, this is the idea of submission that islam has forsaken.

ISDhillon:thankyou:

[max314]

Guru Gobind Singh ji discussed this with muslim emperor Mohammad Azam (third son of Aurangzeb), he told him there may be three gods. Emperor replied in anger "What three gods!"

Guru ji smiled and said " Your father hindered the Hindus from worshipping Rama and instead asked them to utter the name of another God, Allah Pak or Khuda. He proclaimed that heaven is made for Muslims and hell for Hindus. Hindus on the other hand do not worship Khuda and claim that the Muslims will go to hell. I believe in a God whom neither of these acknowledge. He is the merciful father of all, and loves the Hindus and Muslims alike, and sends them to heaven or hell on the basis of their actions".

[Pukandi baba]

kbIru pUMgrw rwm Alh kw sB gur pIr hmwry ]5]

kabeer poo(n)garaa raam aleh kaa sabh gur peer hamaarae ||5||

Kabeer is the child of God, Allah, Raam. All the Gurus and prophets are mine. ||5||

as i have shown sikhs belive that god had a wife and now a child

Is/was Mohammed not the son of God? Was Jesus not the son of God? are YOU not the son of God is my neighbour not the Son/Daughter of God? I'm sure you have enough intelligence to work out what Kabir Ji meant when he says he is ths Son of god! :happy:

[Pukandi baba]

revealed[/B] to Prophet Muhammed SAW.

2 - Also you still haven't explained the "useless" ritual that Guru nanek went on, Hajj, was he a muslim then and not a sikh? How did he go there, did he say he was a muslim?

Firstly the Arch angel Gabriel revealed the Koran to Mohhmmed - OK so your disputing that that Guru Granth Sahib is not the Word of God but the Koran is - Let's see the facts. Guru Nanak utters the Word which he receives directly from God. Mohammed gets it via a 'go-between' who happens to be Gabriel. So God revealed the Word to Gabriel he then passed it on to Mohammed who then recites it to his disciples who then compile the Koran. So God decided to go around the tree's and bushes to reveal the Koran as apposed to directly to Mohammed? Speaks volumes don't you think!:rollseyes

[Pukandi baba]

Firstly the Arch angel Gabriel revealed the Koran to Mohhmmed - OK so your disputing that that Guru Granth Sahib is not the Word of God but the Koran is - Let's see the facts. Guru Nanak utters the Word which he receives directly from God. Mohammed gets it via a 'go-between' who happens to be Gabriel. So God revealed the Word to Gabriel he then passed it on to Mohammed who then recites it to his disciples who then compile the Koran. So God decided to go around the tree's and bushes to reveal the Koran as apposed to directly to Mohammed? Speaks volumes don't you think!:rollseyes

BTW Guru Nanak didn't go to Mecca to do hajj....

When Guru Nanak reached Mecca, he went inside the mosque where the pilgrims were engaged in their devotions. Muslims bow their head toward the mosque in Mecca because they believe that God resides there. When Guru Nanak Dev ji lay down to sleep at night, he turned his feet towards the Mosque. Watching Guru Nanak sleeping with his feet towards the Mosque, the qazi (Muslim priest), Jiwan kicked him and asked who this infidel was. Why is this person sleeping with his legs spread towards God? Guru ji replied, turn my feet in the direction in which God is not. Upon this, he seized Guru ji’s feet and dragged them in the opposite direction and what he saw was astonishing. Wherever he moved the Guru’s feet, the mosque revolved in that direction. The qazi then came to the realization that God is everywhere. Those who witnessed this miracle were astonished and saluted Guru ji

[max314]

BTW Guru Nanak didn't go to Mecca to do hajj....

When Guru Nanak reached Mecca, he went inside the mosque where the pilgrims were engaged in their devotions. Muslims bow their head toward the mosque in Mecca because they believe that God resides there. When Guru Nanak Dev ji lay down to sleep at night, he turned his feet towards the Mosque. Watching Guru Nanak sleeping with his feet towards the Mosque, the qazi (Muslim priest), Jiwan kicked him and asked who this infidel was. Why is this person sleeping with his legs spread towards God? Guru ji replied, turn my feet in the direction in which God is not. Upon this, he seized Guru ji’s feet and dragged them in the opposite direction and what he saw was astonishing. Wherever he moved the Guru’s feet, the mosque revolved in that direction. The qazi then came to the realization that God is everywhere. Those who witnessed this miracle were astonished and saluted Guru ji

If I might be so bold: there was no "miracle" and the Mosque stayed put.

What actually happened was the qasi said to Nanak, "you are pionting your feet towards where God resides".

The Master responded by saying "you have my appologies...would you be so kind as to point my feet in a direction where God does not reside".

The qasi picked up the Guru's feet, and as he moved them around, he realised that there was no direction in which God did not reside. These empty ritualisms of 'showing respect'? God has no need for them. The prayer of any religion is not to 'please' God, for he has no such human desires. The prayer of any religion is merely to humble oneself to realise that they are part of the All, so as to help absolve foolish ego and to respect all men and women as one.

"Love man if you wish to love God." ~ Guru Nanak

[Pukandi baba]

If I might be so bold: there was no "miracle" and the Mosque stayed put.

What actually happened was the qasi said to Nanak, "you are pionting your feet towards where God resides".

The Master responded by saying "you have my appologies...would you be so kind as to point my feet in a direction where God does not reside".

The qasi picked up the Guru's feet, and as he moved them around, he realised that there was no direction in which God did not reside. These empty ritualisms of 'showing respect'? God has no need for them. The prayer of any religion is not to 'please' God, for he has no such human desires. The prayer of any religion is merely to humble oneself to realise that they are part of the All, so as to help absolve foolish ego and to respect all men and women as one.

"Love man if you wish to love God." ~ Guru Nanak

It's my own personal opinion on this but i believe it did take place as i wrote... Just as Jesus turned water into wine i believe that Guru Nanak ji did perform a miracle. Just as Mohammed performed the miracle of (Splitting of the Moon)

WaheGuru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke fateh

[jss]

If I might be so bold: there was no "miracle" and the Mosque stayed put.

What actually happened was the qasi said to Nanak, "you are pionting your feet towards where God resides".

The Master responded by saying "you have my appologies...would you be so kind as to point my feet in a direction where God does not reside".

The qasi picked up the Guru's feet, and as he moved them around, he realised that there was no direction in which God did not reside. These empty ritualisms of 'showing respect'? God has no need for them. The prayer of any religion is not to 'please' God, for he has no such human desires. The prayer of any religion is merely to humble oneself to realise that they are part of the All, so as to help absolve foolish ego and to respect all men and women as one.

"Love man if you wish to love God." ~ Guru Nanak

Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 1


bwbw iPr m`ky gXw nIl bsqR Dwry bnvwrI]
Awsw h`Q ikqwb k`C kUjw bWg mus`lw DwrI]
bYTw jwie msIq ivc ijQy hwjI h`j gujwrI]
jW bwbw su`qw rwq nUM v`l mihrwby pWie pswrI]
jIvn mwrI lq dI kyVHw suqw ku&r ku&wrI]
lqW vl ^udwie dy ikauNkr pieAw hoie bjgwrI]
tMgoN pkV GsIitAw iPirAw m`kw klw idKwrI]
hoie hYrwn kryn juhwrI ]óò]


baabaa fir maakae gayaa neel basathr dhhaarae banavaaree||
aasaa haathh kithaab kaashh koojaa baa(n)g musaalaa dhhaaree||
bait(h)aa jaae maseeth vich jithhae haajee haaj gujaaree||
jaa(n) baabaa suthaa raath noo(n) vaal mehiraabae paa(n)e pasaaree||
jeevan maaree lath dhee kaerrhaa suthaa kur kuaaree||
lathaa(n) val khhudhaae dhae kiou(n)akar paeiaa hoe bajagaaree||
tta(n)go(n) pakarr ghaseettiaa firiaa maakaa kalaa dhikhaaree||
hoe hairaan karaen juhaaree ||aa||


Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.
He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.
Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.
When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,
the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.
Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.
Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving.
All got surprised and they all bowed.


bhul chuk maaf

[Pukandi baba]

:alright: :bravo:

Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 1


bwbw iPr m`ky gXw nIl bsqR Dwry bnvwrI]
Awsw h`Q ikqwb k`C kUjw bWg mus`lw DwrI]
bYTw jwie msIq ivc ijQy hwjI h`j gujwrI]
jW bwbw su`qw rwq nUM v`l mihrwby pWie pswrI]
jIvn mwrI lq dI kyVHw suqw ku&r ku&wrI]
lqW vl ^udwie dy ikauNkr pieAw hoie bjgwrI]
tMgoN pkV GsIitAw iPirAw m`kw klw idKwrI]
hoie hYrwn kryn juhwrI ]


baabaa fir maakae gayaa neel basathr dhhaarae banavaaree||
aasaa haathh kithaab kaashh koojaa baa(n)g musaalaa dhhaaree||
bait(h)aa jaae maseeth vich jithhae haajee haaj gujaaree||
jaa(n) baabaa suthaa raath noo(n) vaal mehiraabae paa(n)e pasaaree||
jeevan maaree lath dhee kaerrhaa suthaa kur kuaaree||
lathaa(n) val khhudhaae dhae kiou(n)akar paeiaa hoe bajagaaree||
tta(n)go(n) pakarr ghaseettiaa firiaa maakaa kalaa dhikhaaree||
hoe hairaan karaen juhaaree ||aa||


Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.
He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.
Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.
When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,
the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.
Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.
Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving.
All got surprised and they all bowed.


bhul chuk maaf

Satnaam Shri Waheguru!

[max314]

Bhai Gurdaas Ji in Vaars Bhai Gurdaas on Pannaa 1

Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.
He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.
Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.
When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,
the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.
Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.
Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving.
All got surprised and they all bowed.


bhul chuk maaf

Oh, Nanak...how your poetry is wasted on the literal minded.

[max314]

Ok so you are sinning if you don't grow your hair right?

So what happens if you disobey the commands? I mean you guys don't believe in heaven/hell right? So what would happen if you were to disobey these commands

These are not "commands" but recommended conduct.

Try to remember the context under which Sikkhism was created.

Like the pagans of Arabia who would worship anything and lived uncicilised, unclean lives, Prophet Mohammad realised that these barbaric people needed to be taught even the most basic things such as how to be clean, etc. He subsequently made it compulsory for his followers to wash before prayers (the prayers themselves were designed as a routine to be followed to instill discipline and focus towards God).

Similarly, the Sikkh Gurus lived in the world of pagan India whereby stone idols were also worshipped, uncivilised behaviour reigned supreme. As such, the Guru Gobind Singh designed a 'uniform' and a way of life that was clean, disciplined, focussed on God, and routed in family life.

We must understand that both the Prophet Mohammad and the Sikkh Gurus were essentially on the same quest: to educate the barbaric masses how to do the things that - in today's world - we take for granted. Things such as equal rights and living cleanly etc that we wouldn't even bat an eyelid at were once considered alien things.

This is why religions today should be taken in context. Sometimes, people get so focussed in on the little details that they fail to see the forest for the trees, and forget the fundamental principles that governed the creation of these systems.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Oh, Nanak...how your poetry is wasted on the literal minded.

If it revolved or not Guru Nanak's point was God does not reside in one direction. just as Jesus said ''The kingdom of God is inside you and all around you''

[unbreakable]

Howdy people.

hmm. party's :rant: still going on eh.

haha

:giggling: ;D :happy: :statisfie :grumbling

[AvarAllahNoor]

Howdy people.

hmm. party's :rant: still going on eh.

haha

:giggling: ;D :happy: :statisfie :grumbling

What party is the mate?

[unbreakable]

What party is the mate?

hmmmm.

This thread, which I referred to as a party.

Surprised its still going on.

btw its Aval Allah Noor.

"..aval alah noor upaa-i-aa kudrat kay sabh banday.
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
ayk noor tay sabh jag upji-aa ka-un bhalay ko manday. ||1||
From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad? ||1|| ..." Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.:)

Waheguru. Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. :)

Waheguru Waheguru.

Well I'm off, its a nice day today, lets play some footy. :giggling: :grumbling :giggling:

[max314]

If it revolved or not Guru Nanak's point was God does not reside in one direction. just as Jesus said ''The kingdom of God is inside you and all around you''

Precisely.

The qasi probably said to someone "oh, it was as if Mecca was everywhere!"

"Mecca was everywhere, huh? Wow!"

And thus start the Chinese Whispers :giggling:

[jss]

Precisely.

The qasi probably said to someone "oh, it was as if Mecca was everywhere!"

"Mecca was everywhere, huh? Wow!"

And thus start the Chinese Whispers :giggling:

Veer ji what daas provided was a translation of bhai gurdas ji's vaar

bhul chuk maaf

[Mohsin]

So is that the authentic story behind Guru Nanek pointiong his feet towards the Ka'bah, because its completely incorrect to believe muslims believe God resides there or that is the only direction of God and you can't pray to God unless you face there.

[AvarAllahNoor]

So is that the authentic story behind Guru Nanek pointiong his feet towards the Ka'bah, because its completely incorrect to believe muslims believe God resides there or that is the only direction of God and you can't pray to God unless you face there.

Well that's what people believed at the time. Guru ji wasn't out to offend, he was making a point, and very well made i'd say!

[AvarAllahNoor]

btw its Aval Allah Noor.

I know Khalsa, once i'd submitted it, it was too late to rectify!

[Mohsin]

Well that's what people believed at the time. Guru ji wasn't out to offend, he was making a point, and very well made i'd say!

Well if he was a prophet/God surely he'd know muslims dont believe God resides in kab'ah.

Also i find the whole story very unlikely. Number one there is no historical narration of it anywhere.Muslims are doing tawaf of Ka'bah constantly, yet noone noticed Kab'ah move :?
Also if muslims saw a man do this they'd think he was the devil or something and wouldn't bow down to him they'd kill him

[AvarAllahNoor]

Well if he was a prophet/God surely he'd know muslims dont believe God resides in kab'ah.

Also i find the whole story very unlikely. Number one there is no historical narration of it anywhere.Muslims are doing tawaf of Ka'bah constantly, yet noone noticed Kab'ah move :?
Also if muslims saw a man do this they'd think he was the devil or something and wouldn't bow down to him they'd kill him

First point -

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...+and+the+kaaba

Second point -

''Also if muslims saw a man do this they'd think he was the devil or something and wouldn't bow down to him they'd kill him''

That's the difference between the real Muslims and ignorant folk like yourself!

[Mohsin]

First point -

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...+and+the+kaaba

Second point -

''Also if muslims saw a man do this they'd think he was the devil or something and wouldn't bow down to him they'd kill him''

That's the difference between the real Muslims and ignorant folk like yourself!

Bro you shouldn't always assume these things. Where did i ever say i would do that? I suppose i should stoop down to your level and your assumption is the difference between real sikhs and ignorant assuming sikhs? Would that be fair? No. So why did you say that?

Now its totally different, if a muslim in mecca saw someone move the kab'ah he would think its the devil, and would kill the guy not worship him


And regarding the very first link you provided, its full of errors

He put on the blue dress, worn by hajjis

:? Was Guru nanek inventing his own hajj. this is completely false

Hajjis carry under their arms their sacred Book, the Koran

What, who is telling you guys this. I'm sorry but based on these clear false facts, how can one believe the story of the Ka'bah moving. Muslims would have gone crazy, liek i said before someone is always performing tawaf of the Ka'bah, so how could this have happened. People would have gone crazy they wouldn't have known what is going on, the ka'bah moving?! There would have been crazy riots and big time questions asked, and it would be written is the history books, but yet there is no evidence for this.

And also, you haven't refurted the point how sikhs always mistakenly think Ka'bah is God's residing place. Surely Guru Nanek being a prophet of an all-knowing God would have known this is not what islam teaches

[AvarAllahNoor]

And also, you haven't refurted the point how sikhs always mistakenly think Ka'bah is God's residing place. Surely Guru Nanek being a prophet of an all-knowing God would have known this is not what islam teaches

Islam does not teach beaheadings, Forced conversion, rape etc etc but it occurs! In those times this is what people were doing just as they did in Mohammeds (pbuh) time. Guru ji came to teach them that they had drifted off the path of God! So this is the way he chose to do it (as God instructed).

If you believe it or not, is of irrelevance. Just as you believe the miracle perfomed by Mohammed (pbuh) 'Splitting of the Moon' (are you even aware of it?) we believe Guru Nanak performed a miracle!

Good day to you sir!

[Mohsin]

Bro sorry if i offended you. I didn't intend to come accross in such a way. I have great respect for your open-mindedness and respect you show in your posts

Yes i'm aware of the moon but there are narrations of people from other places seeing the splitting of the moon.

And even if i was to agree with you that Guru nanek was only talking to a few muslims who thought that, why did he make it out as if all muslims believe this.
Also, i doubt any muslims would have honestly thought God lives in the Ka'bah. Its self-contradicting illogical and goes agianst God's attributes. if the stroy relating to Guru Nanek is true, then the only reason the muslims would have told him to move his feet away is out of respect for the Ka'bah, since Abraham PBUH and his son Ismail PBUH built it together for the worship of God and God purified the land around it. So it doesn't give Guru Nanek any reason to wrongly perceive Muslims as believing God lives in there

[unbreakable]

Can I step in? Thanks.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh.

So is that the authentic story behind Guru Nanek pointiong his feet towards the Ka'bah, because its completely incorrect to believe muslims believe God resides there or that is the only direction of God and you can't pray to God unless you face there.

Bhai Gurdas Ji's work is the only work in Sikh history to be authorized by Guru Arjan Dev Ji. So yes it is authentic. There have been many other scholars after him, but his work is the most important.

Well if he was a prophet/God surely he'd know muslims dont believe God resides in kab'ah.
Also i find the whole story very unlikely. Number one there is no historical narration of it anywhere.Muslims are doing tawaf of Ka'bah constantly, yet noone noticed Kab'ah move :?
Also if muslims saw a man do this they'd think he was the devil or something and wouldn't bow down to him they'd kill him

What you believe to be unlikely doesn't really matter, you not believing will not change the facts. Just as me not believing that Islam is the true way will not change your view.

Sorry brother, but facts are facts. Sikhism is the True way for all of mankind. Islam is the true way for all of the Muslims.

Bro sorry if i offended you. I didn't intend to come accross in such a way. I have great respect for your open-mindedness and respect you show in your posts

Yes i'm aware of the moon but there are narrations of people from other places seeing the splitting of the moon.

And even if i was to agree with you that Guru nanek was only talking to a few muslims who thought that, why did he make it out as if all muslims believe this.
Also, i doubt any muslims would have honestly thought God lives in the Ka'bah. Its self-contradicting illogical and goes agianst God's attributes. if the stroy relating to Guru Nanek is true, then the only reason the muslims would have told him to move his feet away is out of respect for the Ka'bah, since Abraham PBUH and his son Ismail PBUH built it together for the worship of God and God purified the land around it. So it doesn't give Guru Nanek any reason to wrongly perceive Muslims as believing God lives in there

You said it there. The Kabba was built for the worship of God and the land was purified by God. Hence why Muslims pray in that direction.

Why do Muslims pray to the direction of the kaba? Why not pray in any other direction?

You need to understand that during those times (500 years), times were not as bad as today. People were corrupt and extensively ritualistic. I know alot of Muslims who believe that Allah resides in the kaba and that you should worship the kaba.

But you and I know they are misguided.

Its good to know that you are one of few muslims who doesn't believe that.

But, I also know why you are in doubt, its not your fault, its what you are taught. The line of messengers from God for the Muslims ended with Mohammed (may end with the second coming of Jesus).

That's good, you have firm belief. But that does not give you the right to call the prophets of other followers false or wrong.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji was no ordinary man, he did not recieve a message from an angel, but had a direct constant contact with Waheguru/Allah.

I know alot od Muslims who believe in Guru Nanak Dev Ji, but call him a phir and alot of hindus aswell. No other prophet in history has had this kind of following from different followers of faiths.

Waheguru.

Of course you may disagree, but this is the Sikh belief and I don't believe we have to provide evidence to you or anybody for that matter.

Please show some respect.

Again, I say, if you have questions, then ask them and also respect the answers.

"..
Donning blue attire then Baba Nanak went to Mecca.
He held staff in his hand, pressed a book under his armpit, caught hold of a metal pot and mattress.
Now he sat in a mosque where the pilgrms (hajis) had gathered.
When Baba (Nanak) slept in the night spreading his legs towards the alcove of mosque at Kaba,
the qazi named Jivan kicked him and asked who was this infidel enacting blasphemy.
Why this sinner is sleeping his legs spread towards God, Khuda.
Catching hold of the legs he lynched (Baba Nanak) and lo and behold the miracle, the whole of Mecca seemed to be revolving.
All got surprised and they all bowed.
.."

The main purpose of the Visit was to show people that God did not exist in the direction of the kaba.

But you don't believe in this and that's fine and understandable.

Take care and peace.

[Mohsin]

Sorry if i haven't been asking in a respectful manner, i been trying. Apologies

Sikhism is the True way for all of mankind. Islam is the true way for all of the Muslims

Surely if Sikhism is for all mankind then it is for muslims too :?

You said it there. The Kabba was built for the worship of God and the land was purified by God. Hence why Muslims pray in that direction

See you have a common misconception. Muslims have 3 types of prayers. Theres the formal prayer where we prostrate etc 5 times a day. Now that is a command from God to pray 5 times a day, and since most likely most muslims will be praying he has ordained that wer have a common direction to pray in, it is a Kiblah- a direction. Even if somehow God forbid it was blown up or something, we would still be praying in that direction. People in mecca in the msoque around Kabah sometimes pray on the top floor where it is above Kabah, so they aren't even looking at it, but they are praying in that direction for unity since everyone else also is and simply because God has ordered nus to do it. If God was to order us to do otherwise we would pray in another direction. In fact Muslims at the beginning used to pray to Musjid Al Aqsa in Jerusalem, all of them, as it was a direction for that time and for purposes of unity they all had a common direction to face. It later got abbrogated anmd now they all face Mecca

Now we have two other forms of worship that we havent been commanded to do by God at all. And nowhere does it say for them that you have to face Kabah. These two other forms of worship are Dua and Dhikr. In ours Duas we just pray directly to God in our own language raising our hands up. In Dhikr of Allah we just praise God continuously. Now surely if Kabah was the residing place of God we would also have to face Kabah for that. But since its not obligatory to do these prayers, its unlilely others will be doing them same time as you so unity doesn't exist so no need to pray in that direction

Now back to your point about Guru Nanek. No man in his right mind would have said God lives in kabah. Only children at a youbng age believe that. Even muslims with the lowest IQs today will know God doesn't physically live there. Now what i think happened was the Arabs got offended by Nanak for pointing his feet towards the Kabah. In arab culture even today its offensive and disrespectful to point your feet at someone. And since we consider the Kabah to be holy its disliked to point our feet at it.
Now how about the SGGS. You put that at a high place don't you. Why don't you put it on the floor? Does God reside there? Of course not, but yet you still treat it with respect and have it at a high place

[unbreakable]

See you have a common misconception. Muslims have 3 types of prayers. Theres the formal prayer where we prostrate etc 5 times a day. Now that is a command from God to pray 5 times a day, and since most likely most muslims will be praying he has ordained that wer have a common direction to pray in, it is a Kiblah- a direction. Even if somehow God forbid it was blown up or something, we would still be praying in that direction. People in mecca in the msoque around Kabah sometimes pray on the top floor where it is above Kabah, so they aren't even looking at it, but they are praying in that direction for unity since everyone else also is and simply because God has ordered nus to do it. If God was to order us to do otherwise we would pray in another direction. In fact Muslims at the beginning used to pray to Musjid Al Aqsa in Jerusalem, all of them, as it was a direction for that time and for purposes of unity they all had a common direction to face. It later got abbrogated anmd now they all face Mecca

Now we have two other forms of worship that we havent been commanded to do by God at all. And nowhere does it say for them that you have to face Kabah. These two other forms of worship are Dua and Dhikr. In ours Duas we just pray directly to God in our own language raising our hands up. In Dhikr of Allah we just praise God continuously. Now surely if Kabah was the residing place of God we would also have to face Kabah for that. But since its not obligatory to do these prayers, its unlilely others will be doing them same time as you so unity doesn't exist so no need to pray in that direction

Now back to your point about Guru Nanek. No man in his right mind would have said God lives in kabah. Only children at a youbng age believe that. Even muslims with the lowest IQs today will know God doesn't physically live there. Now what i think happened was the Arabs got offended by Nanak for pointing his feet towards the Kabah. In arab culture even today its offensive and disrespectful to point your feet at someone. And since we consider the Kabah to be holy its disliked to point our feet at it.
Now how about the SGGS. You put that at a high place don't you. Why don't you put it on the floor? Does God reside there? Of course not, but yet you still treat it with respect and have it at a high place

Well you are answering your questions yourself.

As commanded by God, the Sikhs do not believe that you are required to pray in a specific direction to pray to God.

All prayers, as you shall agree with me, go to god, weather I pray standing up or sitting down. The Sikh constantly is praying, its practice, but it is possible, as it becomes second nature, like breathing.

Sikhs are commaned to pray 24hours a day, whilst walking, talking, sleeping..etc. This is achieveable.

I know muslims, hindus and Sikhs who do this.

The placement of Sri Guru Granth Sahib does not have anything to do with where God is. Hence this point you made is irelvant to this discussion.

Bottom line is Guru Nanak Dev Ji, did indeed go to Mecca, on his way back he met the calpha of Baghdad, where there is "Gurdwara Baba Nanak" in honour of Guru ji.

Guru Nanak's mission in Mecca was to demonstrate by example that the rituals they are stuck in, will not bring them closer to God. Of course they were offended, but whilst trying to put Guru Ji right, through Guru Ji they learnt the error of their ways.

Mecca did not rotate around. The writings of Bhai Gurdas Ji is written in a poetic style, they cannot be understood just by reading a english translation of them. I am sure you can understand that.

I feel that discussions like these take us away from the truth. Rather than eat at each other, we should be helping each other.

If you have anymore questions, let me know. I'll be back in about a week, out on business.


Can I ask, are you a Shia Muslim or Sunni?

[unbreakable]

Please forgive the spelling mistakes.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Bottom line is Guru Nanak Dev Ji, did indeed go to Mecca, on his way back he met the calpha of Baghdad, where there is "Gurdwara Baba Nanak" in honour of Guru ji.

Guru Nanak had a large following including the successors of Sheikh Bahlol Dana (the Wise) and those of Sheikh Muhy-ud-din Abdul Qadir Jilani

http://www.sikhspectrum.com/072002/images/plate8.jpg
http://www.sikhspectrum.com/072002/baghdad.htm

A shrine in Baghdad!

[Mohsin]

I'm sunni but i don't know the relevance of that question

Look it doesn't matter what sikhism believes its besides the point. muslims too are encouraged to dhikr of the tongue coinstantly wherever they walk to and stuff. We have a prayer taught to us by Prophet Muhammed PBUh for virtually every act. But you guys were questioning why is it that we pray in a cxertain direction and i answeredf you saying it is a commandment of god to pray our formal prayers in that direction, but other than these prayers we can pray wherever whenever we want.

[AvarAllahNoor]

But you guys were questioning why is it that we pray in a cxertain direction and i answeredf you saying it is a commandment of god to pray our formal prayers in that direction, but other than these prayers we can pray wherever whenever we want.

Is there a quote in the Kuran that states this? If so can you post a link.

[Mohsin]

Is there a quote in the Kuran that states this? If so can you post a link.

Link for what?

[AvarAllahNoor]

Link for what?

That you should pray in the direction of Mecca?

[muslim_friend]

"We see the turning of thy face (for guidance to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The people of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is God unmindful of what they do." (2:144)

[Mohsin]

That you should pray in the direction of Mecca?

Yes there are several, but what has that got to do with anything. That's not what we're discussing here

[unbreakable]

Yes there are several, but what has that got to do with anything. That's not what we're discussing here

I'm sunni but i don't know the relevance of that question

Look it doesn't matter what sikhism believes its besides the point. muslims too are encouraged to dhikr of the tongue coinstantly wherever they walk to and stuff. We have a prayer taught to us by Prophet Muhammed PBUh for virtually every act. But you guys were questioning why is it that we pray in a cxertain direction and i answeredf you saying it is a commandment of god to pray our formal prayers in that direction, but other than these prayers we can pray wherever whenever we want.

Thank you Moshin, like it doesn't matter to you what the Sikhs believe, the same way Islam and its ways are irrelevant to us.

Its quite funny how you guys start up a thread on Sikhism and then call Sikh beliefs irrelevant.

So, Moshin, what are we discussing?

[AvarAllahNoor]

Yes there are several, but what has that got to do with anything. That's not what we're discussing here

What else are we discussing? You're saying Allah is requesting that you all pray in the direction of Makkah. If you can't back it up then i'd say it's all concocted, hence why Guru Nanak Ji went to Makkah to enlighten the ignorant. :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Turn then Thy face in the direction of the sacred Mosque: (2:144)

Does that not refer to any mosque? As all mosques are sacred

[Mohsin]

Does that not refer to any mosque? As all mosques are sacred

No its referring to THE sacred Mosque, referring to the ka'bah.

2:148. For every nation there is a direction to which they face (in their prayers). So hasten towards all that is good. Wheresoever you may be, Allâh will bring you together (on the Day of Resurrection). Truly, Allâh is Able to do all things.
2:149. And from wheresoever you start forth (for prayers), turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), that is indeed the truth from your Lord. And Allâh is not unaware of what you do.

2:150. And from wheresoever you start forth (for prayers), turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), and wheresoever you are, turn your faces towards, it (when you pray) so that men may have no argument against you except those of them that are wrong-doers, so fear them not, but fear Me! - And so that I may complete My Blessings on you and that you may be guided.

Theres many more aswell

[Mohsin]

What else are we discussing? You're saying Allah is requesting that you all pray in the direction of Makkah. If you can't back it up then i'd say it's all concocted, hence why Guru Nanak Ji went to Makkah to enlighten the ignorant. :)

Lol well if thats why he went there to prove to the ignorant that God hasn't told us to pray that way, i guess my above post has refuted that hasn't he. Surely a messenger of God would know what was written in the scriptures

[Mohsin]

Thank you Moshin, like it doesn't matter to you what the Sikhs believe, the same way Islam and its ways are irrelevant to us.

Its quite funny how you guys start up a thread on Sikhism and then call Sikh beliefs irrelevant.

So, Moshin, what are we discussing?

Bro you've seriously misquoted me out of context and i think you've missed the point of what the thread has developed into.

Number one we were talking about why guru nanek said to people dont point your feet towards Mecca. I said why did he say that, since muslims don't believe god resides there. Then it developed into why we face Mecca. Then one of you said Sikhs pray 24 hours a day, and i meant it doesn't matter what Sikhs believe on how to pray, its irrelevant to the discussion we were having on why Muslims pray the way we do

When i said Sikh beliefs are irrelevant i was referring to the current context of the discussion we were having

Hope that clarifies bro. Sorry for coming about rude, wasn't my attention

[Khoza]

It seems the Muslims and the Sikhs alike on this thread seem to be going around in circles, at the end of the day the one God is everywhere.

[AvarAllahNoor]

No its referring to THE sacred Mosque, referring to the ka'bah.

2:148. For every nation there is a direction to which they face (in their prayers). So hasten towards all that is good. Wheresoever you may be, Allâh will bring you together (on the Day of Resurrection). Truly, Allâh is Able to do all things.
2:149. And from wheresoever you start forth (for prayers), turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), that is indeed the truth from your Lord. And Allâh is not unaware of what you do.

2:150. And from wheresoever you start forth (for prayers), turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah), and wheresoever you are, turn your faces towards, it (when you pray) so that men may have no argument against you except those of them that are wrong-doers, so fear them not, but fear Me! - And so that I may complete My Blessings on you and that you may be guided.

Theres many more aswell

Muslims believe was the first place built by Adam (the first human) for the worship of God. So if Allah is everywhere why do you need a particular place to focus on?

[AvarAllahNoor]

Number one we were talking about why guru nanek said to people dont point your feet towards Mecca.

No Bhai, he didn't say that. He said it don't matter if your feet are pointed towards Kaabah. Because God is everywhere!

[AvarAllahNoor]

Lol well if thats why he went there to prove to the ignorant that God hasn't told us to pray that way, i guess my above post has refuted that hasn't he. Surely a messenger of God would know what was written in the scriptures

Exactly, so why do Muslims pray towards it?

[Skillganon]

because it is ordained to pray in that direction.

[Mohsin]

We don't believe God is everywhere. We don't believe he's in the toilet, or in a dog or anything. We believe his prescence is everywhere

2:142. The fools (pagans, hypocrites, and Jews) among the people will say, "What has turned them (Muslims) from their Qiblah [prayer direction (towards Jerusalem)] to which they were used to face in prayer." Say, (O Muhammad ) "To Allâh belong both, east and the west. He guides whom He wills to a Straight Way."

We believe his prescence is everwhere. I feel you havent been reading what i've been posting

I said our formal prayer usually requres us to pray together since that is what God has ordained. Now for purposes of unity we have been given a Qibla, a universla direction to pray in, just as other previous nations have also been given a certain direction to pray in

2:148. For every nation there is a direction to which they face (in their prayers). So hasten towards all that is good. Wheresoever you may be, Allâh will bring you together (on the Day of Resurrection). Truly, Allâh is Able to do all things.

Now i can't emphasise its for unity that we pray in that direction. I dont understand whats so hard to understand.

I also explained to you we jhave other forms of worship where we simply do dua or dhikr. We dont have to face any certain direction since we don't do this as a congegration, so purposes of untiy does not exist. In such instances we simply raise our hands to God whichever direction we are in

[Mohsin]

It seems the Muslims and the Sikhs alike on this thread seem to be going around in circles, at the end of the day the one God is everywhere.

is he in the toilet? Is he in our bedroom. We believe his prescence and his signs are everwhere, and he watches all we do. But physically we believe he's up in heaven

[AvarAllahNoor]

We don't believe God is everywhere. We don't believe he's in the toilet, or in a dog or anything. We believe his prescence is everywhere

Your condraticting yourself here. Why would God not be in the toilet if he's everywhere?

I understand now that it is out of unity you pray to mecca. What is found in the Kabba? I've heard many rumours. Some say the bones of Adam, some say Guru Nanaks Slippers. And some say it's just an empty box.

Just curious like

[Khoza]

is he in the toilet? Is he in our bedroom. We believe his prescence and his signs are everwhere, and he watches all we do. But physically we believe he's up in heaven

God sees all but non see him

[Mohsin]

Your condraticting yourself here. Why would God not be in the toilet if he's everywhere?

I understand now that it is out of unity you pray to mecca. What is found in the Kabba? I've heard many rumours. Some say the bones of Adam, some say Guru Nanaks Slippers. And some say it's just an empty box.

Just curious like

By prescence i mean wherever you are you know God is watching you. Everything belongs to God, his signs are everwhere. His spiritual prescence is everwhere. Physically he's in heaven


The Ka'bah was the first place ever created to worship god. it has a large history. Adam PBUH built it. Then Abraham, and his son ismail PBUT built it, so people could do pilgrimage to it. We don't consider it to be holy such that we pray to it, rather we pray towards it, as a direction. In the early days of islam people used to stand on the ka'bah and perform Adhan, a call for prayer

Someone else can maybe explain what is inside the ka'bah, but certainly noones bones, and for certain not guru naneks slippers. we dont believe in the stories about him in mecca. No shrine was built in his name

[AvarAllahNoor]

Someone else can maybe explain what is inside the ka'bah, but certainly noones bones, and for certain not guru naneks slippers. we dont believe in the stories about him in mecca. No shrine was built in his name

Not in mecca i know, but in Baghdad there was, i provided links. Do you refute that?

[Mohsin]

Not in mecca i know, but in Baghdad there was, i provided links. Do you refute that?

I didnt remember going on to it. But i think iot was Dhillon who told me that the muslims have hidden it so none can see it. Immediately doubts arose in my head that there is any such shrine

[AvarAllahNoor]

I didnt remember going on to it. But i think iot was Dhillon who told me that the muslims have hidden it so none can see it. Immediately doubts arose in my head that there is any such shrine

http://www.sikhspectrum.com/072002/baghdad.htm

Scroll down to see the pictures. It exists and i'm not sure that it's been hidden as such. Although i do wonder state it is in now that the war is going on :X

[starfortress]

Your condraticting yourself here. Why would God not be in the toilet if he's everywhere?

I understand now that it is out of unity you pray to mecca. What is found in the Kabba? I've heard many rumours. Some say the bones of Adam, some say Guru Nanaks Slippers. And some say it's just an empty box.

Just curious like

:sl:
Peace to all

Like you said, that was only a rumours anything that you heard previous,and about the Kaabah ill try to answer it later..
challo

[starfortress]

Does that not refer to any mosque? As all mosques are sacred

And all Mosque are facing towards Kaaba the center point of Islam.

[amardeep]

002.115
To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing


there you have it..allah is everywhere..

[Mohsin]

002.115
To Allah belong the east and the West: Whithersoever ye turn, there is the presence of Allah. For Allah is all-Pervading, all-Knowing


there you have it..allah is everywhere..

Lol grossly out of context. it says his prescence is everywhere. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong but i think its referring to when Allah SWT ordained for change of Kibla from Musjid Aqsa in Palestine to the ka'bah, and people started wondering why. Then Allah SWT said it doesn't matter where you turn i can see you everywhere, thge west and the east belongs to me, i can hear you everywhere. But like i explained before, because we pray in congregation Allah SWT ordered us all tp pray in the direction of the ka'bah for unity.

[Sarmad]

Lol grossly out of context.

ok so other than the translation itself you use your opion which states:

i think its referring to when Allah SWT ordained for change of Kibla from Musjid Aqsa in Palestine to the ka'bah, and people started wondering why. Then Allah SWT said it doesn't matter where you turn i can see you everywhere, thge west and the east belongs to me, i can hear you everywhere. But like i explained before, because we pray in congregation Allah SWT ordered us all tp pray in the direction of the ka'bah for unity

I hope you realise that anyone could just say that you need to provide proof other than what you think unfortunately you have not been able to counterargue I will look forward to a more logical response.

Have a devilish day:)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Lol grossly out of context. it says his prescence is everywhere. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong but i think its referring to when Allah SWT ordained for change of Kibla from Musjid Aqsa in Palestine to the ka'bah, and people started wondering why. Then Allah SWT said it doesn't matter where you turn i can see you everywhere, thge west and the east belongs to me, i can hear you everywhere. But like i explained before, because we pray in congregation Allah SWT ordered us all tp pray in the direction of the ka'bah for unity.

Ok, why is it essential to go to Hajj, and from what i hear to touch, embrace the black stone, is this not Idoltary?

BTW - After you write 'Allah' why do you write 'SWT' and what does it stand for?

[amardeep]

it says all pervading in the ayat. all pervading means he is within all...

[amardeep]

the same way the mother gives her DNA to her child, dont you think God gives somesort of "sign" from himself to the creation? we as sikhs say that our Soul comes from God, therefore God is a part of us.
what do you say?

[Umar001]

Ok, why is it essential to go to Hajj, and from what i hear to touch, embrace the black stone, is this not Idoltary?

BTW - After you write 'Allah' why do you write 'SWT' and what does it stand for?

Theres a really nice quote of one of the companions which is something along the lines of 'I know your a stone and you can neither profit me nor harm me' or something and he goes on to say that he only done it cos he saw the prophet do it.

peace be upon him.

G-d wiling someone will get the proper translation for that.

And SWT, I think that is Glorified and High is he or something.

Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala or something along those lines.

[Umar001]

the same way the mother gives her DNA to her child, dont you think God gives somesort of "sign" from himself to the creation? we as sikhs say that our Soul comes from God, therefore God is a part of us.
what do you say?

Im confused.

Do you mean G-d splits parts of His own soul and gives em to ya.

Or do you mean G-d creates a soul and gives it to u so its from Him in that sense?

[Sarmad]

Im confused.

Do you mean G-d splits parts of His own soul and gives em to ya.

Or do you mean G-d creates a soul and gives it to u so its from Him in that sense?

Neither, spirit does not have spatial parameters, its something which is knowable but not comprehendable. Its pure bliss unlike anything material.

[amardeep]

i'll answar you later cause i have to go now, but why do you say G-d..what does that mean? does it say God, and why dont u write God?

[Tania]

What it means Guru? Are priests?

[AvarAllahNoor]

What it means Guru? Are priests?

No the word Guru means...

(literally the word guru means teacher) Second level of its meaning is that the guru is a spiritual leader, a saint, a maharishi, a yogi or a swami.

However, the meaning of the word Guru in Sikh terminology is at a further higher level, and it stands for the 'prophet'.

[Sarmad]

No the word Guru means...

(literally the word guru means teacher) Second level of its meaning is that the guru is a spiritual leader, a saint, a maharishi, a yogi or a swami.

However, the meaning of the word Guru in Sikh terminology is at a further higher level, and it stands for the 'prophet'.

With respect its not prophet either just guru, guru in sikhism is one who is "one" with god, prophet is a messenger that receives a revelation from an angel about god. Sikhs only believe in guru.:)

No offence

[AvarAllahNoor]

With respect its not prophet either just guru, guru in sikhism is one who is "one" with god, prophet is a messenger that receives a revelation from an angel about god. Sikhs only believe in guru.:)

No offence

And Guru Nanak Ji received just that, but not via an angel, but directly from God.

We do not believe in the Guru as a form of worship he uttered the words of God. And God is what we worship!

[Sarmad]

And Guru Nanak Ji received just that, but not via an angel, but directly from God.

We do not believe in the Guru as a form of worship he uttered the words of God. And God is what we worship!

Sikhs meditate on gods name this is a very important distinction, worship is a form of devotion like dharmic geet its not a spiritual technique, wheras simran, paath and kirtan is for soul. I feel uncomfortable with the word worship it reminds me of incas and aztecs. But yes the words were recieved directly from god.:)

[starfortress]

Ok, why is it essential to go to Hajj, and from what i hear to touch, embrace the black stone, is this not Idoltary?

BTW - After you write 'Allah' why do you write 'SWT' and what does it stand for?

:sl:
Peace to all

I guess that was a similar question in few weeks back,ok these are the answer for it:

Bismi-llah

why is it essential to go to Hajj

Hajj as an obligatory act of worship, means to visit the Kaa'ba in Makkah on the specified dates in the month of Dhil-hajj and perform the religious rites in accordance with the Islamic Laws, the word Hajj means to make a resolve to visit a holy place,The Kaabah.The Origin of Hajj is rooted in the Prophet Ibrahim(PBUH) life. Hajj, or the Pilgrimage, was instituted by the prophet Ibrahim to serve as the focal meeting place for all believers in the One God(Allah).Thus he made Makka the center of the worldwide Islamic movement and also to make all the Muslim being unite as single entity.

from what i hear to touch, embrace the black stone, is this not Idoltary?

There is nothing to do with Idoltary,there is only an action that misinterpreted by people who do not know the background giving cause to it.The circumambulation(Tawaf) of the Ka’ba starts where the Black Stone is fixed and, during the seven rounds, it is either kissed or touched, or a sign is made towards it at the end of every round,to use as a marking point.Moreover, it is the way to offer greeting to the Kaaba.

It is said that when Abraham completed the building of the Kaaba, with the help of his son, Ishmael, God commanded him to do the tawaf. He was not able to keep a correct count of the rounds he made. He felt that other worshipers would be similarly confused. He prayed God to give him a sign to be used for counting rounds.And the Angel Gabriel brought him the Black Stone.

There is not the slightest vestige in this or worshipping it.That the Stone itself is ascribed no power is demonstrated very well in what ‘Umar is reported to have said while kissing it: You are a mere stone. If the Prophet(PBUH) had not kissed you, I would have never kissed you.

After you write 'Allah' why do you write 'SWT' and what does it stand for?

That mean to glorified to our god. And 'SWT' mean "Subhanahu wa Ta`ala" = "Glorified and Exalted is He"

[AvarAllahNoor]

For those that want to know more about the Sikh religion...

"If a hundred moons were to come out,
and a thousand suns were to rise;
in spite of all this illumination,
all would be pitch dark without the Guru."
(Guru Angad, 2nd prophet of the Sikhs)


Guru Nanak received a Hukam (commandment) from God instructing him to spread a message of truth based on devotion to One God, honesty, and compassion. The soul of Guru Nanak passed on to nine successors, who elaborated on the first Guru's teachings to give form to this new religion. The final form was given by the tenth and last Guru, Gobind Singh, who started the Sikh initiation ceremony: initiated Sikhs formed a community of saint-soldiers known as Khalsa, the Pure Ones. Guru Gobind Singh also made it clear that, after him, the Guru-eternal for Sikhs would be their holy scripture, Guru Granth Sahib.


GURU NANAK DEV JI

Born in 1469 to a Hindu family near the city of Lahore (now a part of Pakistan), Guru Nanak was the founder of Sikhism. The young Nanak enjoyed the company of holy men and engaged them in long discussions about the nature of God. Around the year 1500, Nanak had a revelation from God; and shortly thereafter, he uttered the words:

There is No Hindu, There is No Muslim

This pronouncement was substantial as it referred to the day and age in which Guru Nanak lived: Hindus and Muslims of India constantly and bitterly fought each other over the issue of religion. The Guru meant to emphasize that, ultimately, in the eyes of God, it is not religion that determines a person's merits, but one's actions.

The Guru witnessed the Mughal invasion of India, and saw the horrors inflicted upon the common people by the invaders. Though a pacifist, Guru Nanak did not hesitate to speak up against injustice:

The kings are ravenous beasts, their ministers are dogs.

The Age is a Knife, and the Kings are Butchers
In this dark night of evil, the moon of righteousness is nowhere visible.

Guru Nanak laid forth three basic principles by which every human being should abide:
1. Remember the name of God at all times.
2. Earn an honest living as a householder.
3. Share a portion of your earnings with the less fortunate.

Besides rejecting the Hindu caste system, idolatry, and ritualism, Guru Nanak preached universal equality. In consistence with his message of equality, Guru Nanak scorned those who considered women to be evil and inferior to men by asking:

Why should we call her inferior, when it is she who gives birth to great persons?

Guru Nanak has been documented to have traveled across India and the Middle East to spread his message. Once, at Mecca, the Guru was resting with his feet pointing toward the holy shrine. When a Muslim priest angrily reprimanded the Guru for showing disrespect to God, the Guru replied, "Kindly point my feet toward the place where God does not exist." Among the many philosophical foundations laid by Guru Nanak , his characterization of God, as illustrated by his visit to Mecca, is most recognizable. It forms the opening lines of the 1430 page Sikh holy scripture, Guru Granth Sahib. The translation is as follows:

There is but One God, The Supreme Truth; The Ultimate Reality, The Creator, Without fear, Without enemies, Timeless is His image, Without Birth, Self Created, By His grace revealed.

Like all the Gurus after him, Guru Nanak preached by example. During a time of great social disarray and religious decay, his message served as a fresh, uncorrupted approach toward spirituality and God. The message of the Guru took almost 240 years to unfold, and so, in accordance with the Will of God, the soul of Guru Nanak merged into the souls of his nine successors.


2. GURU ANGAD


Besides maintaining and upholding the traditions laid forth by Guru Nanak, the second Guru created the Gurmukhi script, a medium through which the writings and teachings of the Sikh gurus could be readily understood by their followers. By disassociating the Sikh tradition from Sanskrit influence, a script and language largely unknown to the masses, the Guru emphasized the universality and widespread accessibility of Sikh religious thought. Moreover, it solidified the idea that Sikhism started as a distinct and revealed religion.


3. GURU AMAR DAS


The third Sikh Guru reinforced the teachings of the previous Gurus by organizing the construction of twenty-two centers of religious learning for the Sikhs. Like his predecessors, he sharply criticized the practice of sati, where widows immolated themselves on the funeral pyres of their dead husbands. The Guru also required that anyone wishing to meet him would have to first partake in the common kitchen, called Langar, as a sign of equality. The Emperor Akbar, Muslim ruler of India, himself followed this tradition before meeting with the Guru.


4. GURU RAM DAS

Founder of the city of Amritsar, site of the Golden Temple, Guru Ram Das worked to ensure the city's growth by encouraging commercial and trade ventures in the town. Soon, with the city flourishing as a trade center and place of pilgrimage, the Sikhs had a distinct religious center of their own.


5. GURU ARJAN

The fifth Guru started the construction of the Golden Temple. To emphasize the universality of Sikhism, the foundation stone of the shrine was laid by a Muslim saint, named Mian Mir. Also, the temple featured four entrances to represent access to all communities. Guru Arjan compiled the Adi Granth, the Sikh scripture containing the writings of all the Gurus up until that time (the writings of the eighth Guru were added by Guru Gobind Singh). As another sign of the universality of Sikh philosophy, the Guru added the writings of several Muslim and Hindu saints, whose ideas corresponded to Sikh beliefs. With the passage of time, the Guru attracted a substantial following; and therefore, the Sikh community assumed a socio-political character. In 1606, Emperor Jehangir, the Muslim ruler of India, summoned the Guru to his court on the charge of blessing a rebellious relative of the Emperor's. Upon the Guru's refusal to embrace Islam to escape death, the fifth prophet of the Sikh religion was subject to inhumane torture and killed. Thus, the martyrdom tradition of Sikhism began with the martyrdom of the Guru himself. From this point forward, Sikhism began to form itself into a community of saint-soldiers.


6. GURU HAR GOBIND

Responsible for establishing idea of the inseparability of spiritual and temporal matters, the sixth Guru maintained an army for the purpose of protecting the poor and destroying tyrants. He constructed the Akal Takht, center of temporal affairs in the Sikh religion, across from the Golden Temple in Amritsar. By this time, the Sikh community was a full-fledged social, religious, and political entity.


7. GURU HAR RAI

The seventh Guru continued the mission of organizing the Sikhs into a military force that would be equipped and ready, both spiritually and physically, to counter the repressive Mughal empire.


8. GURU HAR KRISHAN

At only five years of age, the eighth Sikh Guru was the youngest. He worked to alleviate the suffering of the common man during a smallpox epidemic in Delhi, but succumbed to the disease himself at the age of eight.


9. GURU TEGH BAHADUR

The Mughal Emperor of India, Aurangzeb, attempted to consolidate India into one Islamic nation. In order to achieve this aim, he set out to virtually eliminate Hinduism from India. When the eighth Guru heard of this from a desperate group of Hindus, he challenged the Emperor that, in order to convert all the Hindus, the Guru himself would have to embrace Islam. When the Guru was imprisoned at the request of Aurangzeb in 1675, despite being forced to watch the torture and execution of two disciples, the Guru simply refused to concede to the Emperor's demand. Finally, the Guru was ordered to get beheaded. Unparalleled in the history of humankind, the martyrdom of Guru Teg Bahadur was an act of sacrifice for another religious community. The Guru's martyrdom served to awaken the collective conscience of the Sikh community, which was about to undergo a final transformation in the years to follow.


10.GURU GOBIND SINGH

Upon the death of his father, Guru Gobind Singh felt compelled to organize the Sikhs into a community of saint-soldiers. During the spring of 1699, the Guru called his followers for a special gathering. During the day, thousands of people assembled in front of a stage and a tent, out of which emerged the Guru to address the massive audience. With sword in hand, the Guru asked the congregation if anyone would be willing to sacrifice their head for him. Naturally, the audience was stunned by the Guru's request, and many followers began to disperse out of sheer terror. Still, the Guru pressed for one of his followers to give their life for him. Finally, one of the assembled stood, with hands folded, and approached the Guru in full submission. The lone disciple was led into the tent by the Guru. After some time, the Guru emerged with a blood-stained sword and asked for another head. Overcome with shock, the audience could not believe what they were seeing; however, another devoted follower stood and offered his head to the Guru. Eventually, with the same outcome, three more devoted disciples offered their lives to the Guru. After the fifth devotee was led into the tent, to the surprise of the massive audience, the Guru emerged with the five followers fully clothed in the uniform of the Khalsa, or Pure. The Guru's demonstration symbolized a revitalization of the Sikh identity and the definitive evolution of the Sikh community into a community of saint-soldiers. After initiating the five "beloved ones" into the new order of the Khalsa, the Guru knelt before them and requested that they initiate him. In the annals of human history, such a transformation into a distinct and solidified community, culminating in the baptism of the prophet by his followers, remains a unique and defining moment.

Guru Gobind Singh and his Khalsa army were engaged in several battles against the imperialist Mughal army during the Guru's life. Through the course of those turbulent times, the Guru lost his four children and his mother to the cause of righteousness; but nevertheless, the Khalsa stood firm as a distinct and sovereign entity, able to withstand the onslaught of a mighty enemy.

In the face of persecution, the Guru wrote:

When all peaceful means of resolution have failed, it is righteous to draw the sword.

Before his death at the hands of an assailant in 1708, the Guru added the writings of Guru Tegh Bahadur to the Sikh scriptures, thereby giving a final revision to its form. The Guru also declared the lineage of living Gurus finished, and requested his followers to seek spiritual guidance from the Guru Granth Sahib. In essence, the light of Nanak, the first Guru, was to be forever enshrined within the pages of the Guru Granth Sahib.

Guru Granth Sahib Holy Book

To illustrate his point that the Guru Granth Sahib was the final Guru of the Sikhs, and as a sign of humility, Guru Gobind Singh did not include his writings, over 1400 pages worth of literature, in the Guru Granth Sahib. A separate volume, called Dasam Granth, features the writings of the tenth Sikh Guru.

[Tania]

"Hindus and Muslims of India constantly and bitterly fought each other over the issue of religion. The Guru meant to emphasize that, ultimately, in the eyes of God, it is not religion that determines a person's merits, but one's actions."
If the people from India would have turned to the new religion than the whole fight would have been stoped and India would have been not split :-[
I just read about sati. Who stopped the the funeral process because the hindu of today are not practising anymore?

Are priests, scholars in sikhism and where do you pray? in church, mosque?

[Khoza]

Are priests, scholars in sikhism and where do you pray? in church, mosque?

There are Granthi's in Sikhism who read the Guru Granth Sahib Ji in Gurdwaras (Sikh place of worship). There are also scholars in Sikhism.

[AvarAllahNoor]

I just read about sati. Who stopped the the funeral process because the hindu of today are not practising anymore?

Are priests, scholars in sikhism and where do you pray? in church, mosque?

Sati was stopped by Guru Ji, It's useless practice.

We have Granthis - They read from the Scriptures, although anyone is allowed to read providing you are able to read Gurmukhi (punjabi) Be it a woman or man. We have no hierarchy in Sikhism.

We pray in Gurdwara's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurdwara
Many can be found all over the UK and many other countries. Historical ones can be found in India.

This is to the Sikhs as is Mecca to the Muslims - Anyone is welcome (as seen with my own eyes last year, from Cauasians to chinese and Muslims)

http://www.sikhnet.com/GoldenTemple

Guru Arjan had it made and Muslim divine, Mian Mir of Lahore, is said to have been invited by Guru Arjan Dev to lay the foundation stone of the temple in A.D. 1588. The structure of the shrine also mixed the rectangular form of the Hindu temple with the dome and minarets of the Muslims

[Zohair]

what are you talking about?

how does that verse have anything to do with being allowed to marry relatives? in other places of the quran, specifically if you read surah nisaa (chapter 4) there is a verse which gives a list of people who you are not allowed to marry from, i.e immediate family

[Sarmad]

Hajj as an obligatory act of worship

or

make all the Muslim being unite as single entity.

which one is it?

There is nothing to do with Idoltary,there is only an action that misinterpreted by people who do not know the background giving cause to it.

Idolators use the same explanations when describing the impressive reasons behind tending to stone statues would you accept their reason? if not why should anyone accept the importance of your obligatory act of hajj? Simple its based on faith and guru nanak smashed these illusions by saying that god couldnt care less about hajj. no offence.

"Moreover, it is the way to offer greeting to the Kaaba."

why you greet an inanimate object?

"You are a mere stone. If the Prophet(PBUH) had not kissed you, I would have never kissed you"

so you kiss it out of devotion? what if idolators said they tend to their idols out of devotion? these arguments can be used by anyone, all people can give good reason for their acts of worship, guru nanak said that you are not obliged to perform any act as the body is in itself the temple of god, so in a sense belief in the reasons why people do hajj is a form of ritualised-thinking.

After you write 'Allah' why do you write 'SWT' and what does it stand for?

this is also a ritual, people get told off for not addressing god in this way yet no-one knows whats in a persons heart, you cant force someone to love god if they dont then they dont, simple as. It would be different if you said these words out of respect but you are telling me you do it to glorify god, must god be glorious for you to respect him? is it not enough that he is god?

Sarmad:)

[Zohair]

First off, there is not going to be another prophet to come after the Prophet SAW, so whoever said that god could care less about hajj, is just a liar. (no offence). it says this in the quran. It says that Muhammad SAW is the seal of the prophets, and this quran will last until the day of judgement as the shariah, the quran is the final guidance for mankind.

If you are a Muslim, you follow the quran, you don't follow guru nanak, or whatever other guru there is. Muslims follow the quran and the authentic hadith (sayings of the prophet SAW). and in the quran, there is even a chapter called Hajj. it is chapter number 22. It is one of the five pillars of the islamic faith, to preform the hajj.

now saying that the ka'bah is just like an idol, and so muslims are committing adultery is just wrong. the ka'bah is a shrine that was dedicated to allah, built by Prophet Ibrahim. the Makkan pagans desicrated it with the idols they built around it. I have a great article by Dr. Zakir Naik, addressing this accusation that muslims worship idols by worshipping the ka'bah, I will post it after this post inshallah.

you asked which one is hajj, is it obligitory, or is it to make all muslims united as one single entity. well the answer is quite simple, it is both ;D . it is both obligitory and it unites all muslims.

and about the black stone, this stone is from Jannah! (paradise) who wouldn't want to touch something from jannah, or kiss something from heaven. we don't worship the stone, it is just something that allah gave to us as a gift, and he allowed us to touch it or kiss it.

and your last statement is pretty illogical, it is a way of giving respect to Allah. Subhana wa ta'alah, it means glory be to him. what is wrong with saying that? you are praising god, maybe some people may not have it in their heart, only allah knows what is in your heart, and you will get reward according to the intention of your heart.

check my next post I will post the article

[Zohair]

here is the article as promised in my above post, hope this clears up your misconception

Question:

When Islam is against idol worship why do the Muslims worship, and bow down to the Kaaba in their prayer?

Answer:

Kaaba is the Qibla i.e. the direction Muslims face during their prayers. It is important to note that though Muslims face the Kaaba during prayers, they do not worship the Kaaba. Muslims worship and bow to none but Allah.

It is mentioned in Surah Baqarah:

"We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction."
[Al-Qur’an 2:144]


1. Islam believes in fostering unity


For instance, if Muslims want to offer Salaah (Prayer), it is possible that some may wish to face north, while some may wish to face south. In order to unite Muslims in their worship of the One True God, Muslims, wherever they may be, are asked to face in only one direction i.e. towards the Kaaba. If some Muslims live towards the west of the Kaaba they face the east. Similarly if they live towards the east of the Kaaba they face the west.


2. Kaaba is at the Centre of the World Map


The Muslims were the first people to draw the map of the world. They drew the map with the south facing upwards and north downwards. The Kaaba was at the centre. Later, western cartographers drew the map upside down with the north facing upwards and south downwards. Yet, Alhamdullilah the Kaaba is at the centre of the world map.


3. Tawaaf around Kaaba for indicating one God


When the Muslims go to Masjid-e-Haram in Makkah, they perform tawaaf or circumambulation round the Kaaba. This act symbolizes the belief and worship of One God, since, just as every circle has one centre, so also there is only one Allah (swt) worthy of worship.


4. Hadith of Umar (may Allah be pleased with him)


Regarding the black stone, hajr-e-aswad, there is a hadith (tradition), attributed to the illustrious companion of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh), Umar (may Allah be pleased with him).

According to Sahih Bukhari, Volume 2, book of Hajj, chapter 56, H.No. 675. Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm. Had I not seen the Prophet (pbuh) touching (and kissing) you, I would never have touched (and kissed) you".


5. People stood on Kaaba and gave the adhaan
At the time of the Prophet, people even stood on the Kaaba and gave the ‘adhaan’ or the call to prayer. One may ask those who allege that Muslims worship the Kaaba; which idol worshipper stands on the idol he worships?

[Zohair]

lol my third post in a row..

I just skimmed through the thread, and I will touch on the issues that was brought up with the sikh's, if I missed any please do remind me.

the first issue is the issue of the quran and its revelance. the quran is the direct and exact word from god. you can tell because out of all of the books written, the quran has the best language and best speech. the writing style is unique to any other book. all the chapters verses are rhyming!!! imagine rhyming 284 sentences together and having them to make sense and get a point! subhanallah. and the Prophet SAW did not go to school, the way he spoke and the way the qur'an was recited were two very different things, the qur'an is the highest elequonce of arabic literature. I doubt that the sikh book by the guru that you believe is god on the earth is as elequont as the quran. there are some links on the thread to qur'an recitation, listen to the flow of the verses, it is like medecine to the ears.

I already addressed the issue of the ka'bah in my above posts.

Hajj is something instructed in the quran, and as I mentioned earlier, chapter 22 is actually named "hajj" thats how important it is. when something is instructed in the quran. to ask why is it that you have to turn to the ka'bah or travel to the ka'bah, the answer is basically, its none of your business. Allah instructs many things with wisdom, and with reason.

hajj is a great test of patience, and so allah might want us to preform hajj so that he can test our obedience to allah and our patience that we have.

whoever has gone for hajj and umrah can share stories on how they were tested on the way to hajj or even during hajj. I myself went for umrah to makkah.

and the rest of the small issues, the answer is simple, its in the qur'an and in the ahadith (sayings of the prophet SAW)!!

any other issues you want to ask about, please post your concerns here and I will be happy to respond :).

[Zohair]

look at my other posts, I refuted all of his points.

after your post then I guess the debate is that we agree to disagree. its not going to get anywhere its a case of he said, she said.

the muslims follow the quran, sikhs follow guru nanak.

and for the record, the quran is not from an angel, the angel gave the words of god to Muhammad SAW, if god were to come into this earth and appear himself, the whole universe would burn up from allah's noor.

anyways, if this is the attitude your gonna have it is a pointless debate.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

Then your prophet was a liar no offence

Correction: there will be people who will claim to be a prophet after muhammed [saw] but they will not be prophets.

it is said in sggs that koran is false so your argument is disqualified

Book against book? it would be unwise to go down this path...

i only follow god which is sri guru granth sahib ji ,your koran is the word of an angel and irrelevant to me

But you still believe in a one true God, right? Muslims refer to the one true God as Allah.

There is a fine line between debating and fighting - the latter is not required.

[Zohair]

because the miracles are way to plentiful :giggling:, I will not post all of them, but rather a link where you can see all of them

http://www.-----------------------/scientific_index.html

explore the different links, you will be amazed.

[amardeep]

SGGS does not say the Quran is false. i challenge every sikh in here to bringe a verse that says so..

The Gurus never used the word "rasool" about themselves. the only place the word rasool is mentioned in the SGGS is when adresssing Muhammad. so no, Sikhi does not contradict Islam at this point..

Sikhism is all about love and respect..just like islam

[Mohsin]

You a sikh i take it? What do you want to debate on?

[AvarAllahNoor]

SGGS does not say the Quran is false. i challenge every sikh in here to bringe a verse that says so..

i second this!

Where does it state this in the Guru Granth Sahib?? Provide link!

[Mohsin]

i second this!

Where does it state this in the Guru Granth Sahib?? Provide link!

Um this is what i got from a sikh

On panna 1350, Satguru Granth Sahib tells us "Baed Kataeb kaho mat jhoothay jhootaa jo naa bichaarai" which means, "Call the Vedas and the Semitic scriptures FALSE teachings, false is that person who does not reflect". The shabad then goes on to highlight the hypocrisy of the Mullahs. Sikhi does not accept any other religion as being "true".

[Mohsin]

<<You a sikh i take it? What do you want to debate on?>>>

my religion and allegiance is irrelevant.

I posted earlier..i would like to discuss sikhism and Islam.

I am waiting for others to accept invitation. Will discuss with only those who respond till tomorrow.

Go for it bro, but remmeber this is a forum, everyone is entitled to join in

[AvarAllahNoor]

Um this is what i got from a sikh

That english translation is false!!

Even a person who understands urdu can work out what this bit means!!

Kaho mat jhoothay Those that dare say it's lies!

Mat = Dare

jhoothay = Lie

And the ending verse is right 'false is that person who does not reflect on these scriptures'

I'm assuming the Sikh you got it off, wasn't fluent in the understanding of Guru Granth Ji!

[Mohsin]

So basically the translation i was given was exact opposite to what it actually says. So it actually says don't call them false teachings, and reflect on what it says, am i right?

What does it mean by reflect on what it says

[AvarAllahNoor]

So basically the translation i was given was exact opposite to what it actually says. So it actually says don't call them false teachings, and reflect on what it says, am i right?

What does it mean by reflect on what it says

Yes!

To read, and to aknowledge what it preaches.

[Mohsin]

Yes!

To read, and to aknowledge what it preaches.

Well i thought sikhs thought what was said in the Qur'an is false. For example God says we shoud pray to the Ka'bah the holy mosque and non-muslims should not be allowed there. You have previously tried in vain to show how incorrect that was, but nevertheless Sikhs still disagree with that islamic rule, so obviously you think this is false, am i right?

Also people like Dhillon said Qur'an is not the word of God but quite comically he would argue it's the word of an angel. How can sikhs then "acknowledge",as you said, what it preaches?

[Zohair]

If sikhs believe in the quran and in prophet Muhammad SAW, why don't they follow him? and if they say the quran is true, why not follow it?

if sikh's believe in the qur'an, then why can't we use the quran to prove ones points?

[Tania]

If sikhs believe in the quran and in prophet Muhammad SAW, why don't they follow him? and if they say the quran is true, why not follow it?

if sikh's believe in the qur'an, then why can't we use the quran to prove ones points?

I think they just respect others religion, like never denny them or talking badly about them.

[amardeep]

the verse says:

bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.

which means that sikhs and all of humanity can not call the Koran or any other divine scripture false....if we should call anyone false, call the one falsem who says he is a muslim, but does not follow the Quran.

the Quran might be a divine scripture, but it is not an eternal scripture..it was only sent for the arabs......why did'n Muhammad travel the world to spread his message if he was a universel prophet? Guru Nanak visited large parts of the world to spread his message and was accepted by people of all religions, as they saw him as divine..

[Zohair]

the Quran might be a divine scripture, but it is not an eternal scripture..it was only sent for the arabs......why did'n Muhammad travel the world to spread his message if he was a universel prophet? Guru Nanak visited large parts of the world to spread his message and was accepted by people of all religions, as they saw him as divine..

Actually Muhammad did travel the world to spread his message. basically at the time of the Prophet, the world was runned by different empires, so he sent letters to the different emprerors, telling them to embrace islam. and also, he sent a group of muslims to ethiopa to spread islam there.

Also in the quran, it says clearly, that it is the final guidance for mankind, and that there are NO scriptures after it.

similarily it says that The Prophet SAW is the LAST prophet. and that he was sent to the worlds.

anymore questions?

[Zohair]

Surah (chapter) 33 verse 40:

*{Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of Allah and the seal of all the prophets. And Allah knows all things.}*

and the Prophet SAW said:

"O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray."

[jss]

If sikhs believe in the quran and in prophet Muhammad SAW, why don't they follow him? and if they say the quran is true, why not follow it?

if sikh's believe in the qur'an, then why can't we use the quran to prove ones points?

The Guru's acknowledge its existence but did not follow it.

'Ram Rahim Puran Quran Anek Kahain Par Ek Na Maniyo.'


Therefore the Sikhs (disciples) of the True Guru do not deny or call these scriptures false, personally out of respect too.
I'm sure you wouldn't like anyone dissing your religion by calling it false.

The Guru's bana (will) is the Guru Granth Sahib which has a universal message for all of mankind and does not discriminate against anyone.

GurFateh

[jss]

Well i thought sikhs thought what was said in the Qur'an is false. For example God says we shoud pray to the Ka'bah the holy mosque and non-muslims should not be allowed there. You have previously tried in vain to show how incorrect that was, but nevertheless Sikhs still disagree with that islamic rule, so obviously you think this is false, am i right?

Also people like Dhillon said Qur'an is not the word of God but quite comically he would argue it's the word of an angel. How can sikhs then "acknowledge",as you said, what it preaches?

People say alot of things but you can find out first hand by reading the Guru Granth Sahib.

The Guru's bana (will) is true.

GurFateh

[jss]

Surah (chapter) 33 verse 40:

*{Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of Allah and the seal of all the prophets. And Allah knows all things.}*

and the Prophet SAW said:

"O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray."

That is your belief- obviously there is no room for a open minded discussion.
Good luck in your journey:thankyou:

Gurfateh

[Zohair]

That is your belief- obviously there is no room for a open minded discussion.
Good luck in your journey:thankyou:

Gurfateh

lol I understand that but a person said that sikh's believe in the qur'an, but they don't believe it was the final scripture, and they don't believe Muhammad SAW, was hte last prophet, so I put those verses.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Well i thought sikhs thought what was said in the Qur'an is false. For example God says we shoud pray to the Ka'bah the holy mosque and non-muslims should not be allowed there. You have previously tried in vain to show how incorrect that was, but nevertheless Sikhs still disagree with that islamic rule, so obviously you think this is false, am i right?

Also people like Dhillon said Qur'an is not the word of God but quite comically he would argue it's the word of an angel. How can sikhs then "acknowledge",as you said, what it preaches?

As difficult as it may seem for others to comprehend, Guru Nanak was sent by God! How would it look if he said that he was the true messenger? He'd have faltered from his mission. God created all the main religions judaism/Christianity/Islam/Hinduism and then Sikhism! He could say that all the other's we're false, but no, because God created them, but God saw his creation was going astray once again, so then Guru Nanak took birth!


Mitee dhund Jag Chaanan hoya, Satgur Nanak Pargatiya

The fog of ignorance dispelled when Guru Nanak Dev came and all light shone.

[AvarAllahNoor]

If sikhs believe in the quran and in prophet Muhammad SAW, why don't they follow him? and if they say the quran is true, why not follow it?

if sikh's believe in the qur'an, then why can't we use the quran to prove ones points?

Why do we need to follow him? We have respect for him as he's a messenger of the Almighty, but we do not accept him to be anything else. We believe Sikhism is the true way as it is the last religion created by the Almighty. And every word uttered by Guru Nanak and the other Gurus are devine words from God himself!

Jaisi Main Aawe Khasam Ki Baani Taisra Kari Giaan Ve Lalo”.

As the Bani (revelation) comes to me from my Lord, so do I reveal!

[------]

SGGS has NO verse in DIRECT negation of muhammed's prophet hood or quran being word of God.

It has many references though :-

to misinterpretation of Quran

to rote learning of quran or other religious scriptures


to follow illogical rituals

to claims that they know all bout God and there is nothing left to be known

Erm................yh...........ok...............t his is an islamic forum mate..........don't u think u'd be better off NOT dissing Islam? :rollseyes

[AvarAllahNoor]

Erm................yh...........ok...............t his is an islamic forum mate..........don't u think u'd be better off NOT dissing Islam? :rollseyes

Where is the 'dissing'?


BTW - Your signature is very confusing, far too much text :)

[------]

Just cause u know its true :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Just cause u know its true :)

Of course it's true! :)

[------]

so as Guru Nanak said. "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim,

all are same in the eyes of God"

That means there is no religion! What the.....:?

[------]

donot understand your deductive logic.

Deductive logic?

Excuse me, u urself said

[S]so as Guru Nanak said. "There is no Hindu, there is no Muslim,

all are same in the eyes of God" [/S]

That means there is no religion according to your belief. :rollseyes

[Muhammad]

:sl: and Greetings,

I think there has been a misunderstanding, so let us not turn this into a harsh discussion please. I believe brother Zohair only mentioned the Qur'anic verses to explain the belief in Islam, and not to contribute to the debate. I would also urge us all to remain respectful while trying to understand each other's belief.

I have a couple of questions about Sikhism from reading the last bunch of posts...

Truthseeker provided a link to the translation of the SGGS, which mentions that:

Because of it's musical nature and poetic style, no translation can ever hope to fully capture all of the moods and nuances of the original Gurmukhi version. At the same time the celebration of God and the Gurus teachings on how one should live their life found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib transcends cultural and linguistic boundaries and are universal in their appeal.

This reminds me of the nature of the Qur'an, since the Qur'an uses language of the highest standard. Can you elaborate on the part about transcending "cultural and linguistic boundaries", and would it be possible to get a feel of the nature of the SGGS by perhaps hearing it being read?

Regarding this post:

As difficult as it may seem for others to comprehend, Guru Nanak was sent by God! How would it look if he said that he was the true messenger? He'd have faltered from his mission. God created all the main religions judaism/Christianity/Islam/Hinduism and then Sikhism! He could say that all the other's we're false, but no, because God created them, but God saw his creation was going astray once again, so then Guru Nanak took birth!

If God sent Guru Nanak to become the founder of Sikhism (correct me if I am wrong), does this mean that the other religions are considered false, since you said that "God saw his creation was going astray", although they are simply not stated as being false, out of respect?

Thank you all for your contribution to this thread,

Peace.

[------]

However i do find the recitation from the verses of Quran very soothing.

It says in the Qur'an -

Chapter 6, Verse 125

And whomsoever Allah wishes to show the way, He
opens his heart for Islam, and whomsoever wishes to lose
his way, He makes his heart narrow, straightened.

[AvarAllahNoor]

nd would it be possible to get a feel of the nature of the SGGS by perhaps hearing it being read?

Regarding this post:
If God sent Guru Nanak to become the founder of Sikhism (correct me if I am wrong), does this mean that the other religions are considered false, since you said that "God saw his creation was going astray", although they are simply not stated as being false, out of respect?


Peace.

Without a doubt!!


No, not false as i've stated before! but many practices that have crept up in Islam and Hinduism have led people away, no?


"There are five prayers, and accordingly five hours of the day for namaz, the five having five names. Let, then, the first be truthfulness, the second honest living and the third charity - all in the Name of God. Let the fourth be goodwill towards all, and the fifth the praise of the Lord God. Your kalma is only your good deeds, and this alone entitles you to call yourself a Muslim, O, Nanak, the false obtain falsehood, and nothing but falsehood...." *Note Guru is not saying that those that do the above are false!

There are four castes of Hindus and four sects of Muslims in the world
The members of both religions are selfish, jealous, proud, bigoted and violent.
The Hindus make pilgrimage to Hardvar and Banaras, the Muslim to the Kaaba of Mecca.
Circumcision is dear to the Muslims, sandal mark (tilak) and sacred thread to the Hindus.
The Hindus invoke Ram, the Muslims, Rahim, but in reality there is only One God.
Since they have forgotten the Vedas and the Katebas, worldly greed and devil have led them astray.
Truth hidden from both; the brahmins and maulvis kill one another by their animosities.
Neither sect shall find liberation from transmigration. (Guru Nanak dev Ji.)

[Silver Pearl]

:wasalamex


NOTE: If i put a pound aside for every time i warned people about their attitudes towards Muslims and non-muslims i'd be rich! rich i tell you! Please refrain from belittling others because it is not nice nor is it the sort of manners we should have as muslims. This thread was opened so that some of us would have a better understanding of Sikhism (i wonder where i got such notion from, wait, the title says Sikhism). If you can not reply in a civilised manner i suggest you refrain from contributing. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Ya muslimeen, do you think you will not be held accountable for the things you write? think twice....think thrice and then post.

Jizakallah khair

[Zohair]

It seems there's a double standard here (or whatever you call it). you said we are not allowed to use the qur'an, and yet you are using the sggs as a reference point.

[max314]

I believe Guru Nanak had Muslim teachers.

:sl:

Indeed. In fact, one of his most covetted friends was a Muslim; Bhagat Kabeer.

But that doesn't make him a Muslim. Especially since it was Guru Nanak who was re-educating his teachers and his colleagues.

[max314]

:sl:

I heard a story about when Sikhs people first came to saudi arabia, the people there thougt that they were muslims aswell.. because they also grow beards. So they strated to help them in getting them in the good places for work.. but later on they started to think because they never saw those men comming to the mosques on Juma :confused:
so from then they knew they werent muslim.....

pretty weird huh

:w:

Heh...I've got a funny story:

I was crossing the street about three or four months ago, and I hadn't shaved for a while since I was busy with exams. I knew I 'looked like a Muslim' since I had cut hair and about four weeks-worth of facial hair. As I crossed the street, a Muslim fellow crossed past me and made eye-contact. Then he said "asalam-à-likum [hope I spelled that right...] my Muslim brother" to me. I replied quickly: "I'm not Muslim, but I am most certainly your brother" :happy: Unfortunately, I think he was one of the less tolerant Muslims, because his face sunk just as I told him that... :giggling:

Then there was this other time (this was only about four weeks ago) when I was walking out of a high-rise car park and some Eastern European-lookin' guy shouts to me from about 20 yards away; "sorry, there aren't any Mosques around here!" I was stunned...not because he thought I was Muslim, but because I couldn't believe that he would hurl that kind of abuse at one of his fellow human beings :-\ I shouted back "well, I'm not Muslim", to which he replied "well, you look it". I said "if you mean I look like a human being, then thanks for the observation".

[max314]

sikhism is a made up new so called religion....it waz created in da Sikh Period: 1762-1849 A.D.
The Sikhs established their empire in the Punjab after the death of the Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb Alamgir in 1707. With the death of Aurangzeb the country saw a series of rapid governmental changes that stressed it in to the depths of anarchy.


-----

Well, that's a slant on the real history. The Mughal Empire was greater than just its Hindustani terrirories. It expanded Westwards, through Afghanistan and the Middle East. But the Khalsa Panth established by Guru Gobind Singh Ji literally forced the Mughal räj out of India.

The reason it started was because Guru Gobind Singh Ji disapproved of the fascist autocracy that the Mughals had going. In fact, he wasn't the only one. There were groups of Muslims and Hindus who also disagreed with it vehemently. What Guru Gobind Singh Ji created was a highly-effective army. He started with peaceful methods of negotiation, etc, but after a number of genocidal acts on the part of the Mughal government, the Guru's hand was forced into utilising his army.

After his death, the Khalsa went on to conduct a military campaign of guerilla warfare. Soon, the most feared army in the East was the only one that didn't have a country. Once the Khalsa räj of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh finally began, all religions were welcome to exist as they were with no discrimination. This humanism and equality had always been the goal of the Tenth Master, Guru Gobind Singh Ji.

There is in fact a story when a number of Hindu officials in Ranjeet Singh's kingdom came complaining that they didn't like the fact that the Mosque was calling Muslims to prayer five times a day. They made a request for him to stop allowing Mosques to do this. Ranjeet Singh agreed to this...as long as those same Hindus were willing to knock on the door of every Muslim in the kingdom and call them to prayers. Naturally, the Hindu leaders retreated.:giggling:

[Mohsin]

the Quran might be a divine scripture, but it is not an eternal scripture..it was only sent for the arabs........

If its divine then it means its from God. We both agree God can't lie. God says in the Qur'an that the Priophet Muhammed PBUH is sent for the rest of humanity. He also says the Prophet PBUH does not say anything of his own accord, thus everything Prophet Muhammed PBUH has said and done has been by the will of Allah. He said I am the last prophet sent to the whole of mankind. Ie implying Guru nanek or anyone else to come arfter him can't actually be a prophet/messenger/guru or whatever way you like to classify the gurus.

So either it is telling the truth or it is not. either it is divine or it is not. which one is it?

why did'n Muhammad travel the world to spread his message if he was a universel prophet? Guru Nanak visited large parts of the world to spread his message and was accepted by people of all religions, as they saw him as divine

Now not only did Prophet Muhammed send letters to different nations, but like Zohair also said he also sent his companions to different parts of the world, and today if you look at the graves of the noble companions, you will find not many of them are in mecca/medina, but they are buried in places as far as egypt Syrria palestine Iraq Iran and China even.

Now you say guru naneks message was accepted by all, but nobody converted to sikhism apart from a few small numkber of people in Punjab, and it was most probably due to the unrest that was being caused by the fighting between the muslims and hindus, and Sikhism provided answers at a time that provided some form of peace. it goes without saying if islam had ben practised properly there would never have been such blood shed between muslims and hindus. Islam on the other hand converted the whole Of Medina while it was still a minority and under under attack from the powerful pagans at the time. It peacefully spread to the whole of Arabia, and plces as far as Malaysia Indonesia peacefully without any need for force

[amardeep]

TWe say the followers of Islam and hinduism went astray.
Hindu scriptures only talks about One God..hinduism is a monoteistic religion, yet the followers worship several Gods..they fell astray from their scriptures in many ways.

same goes with muslims. Right after the death of Muhamad, Muslims started robbing and conquering the world. yet Muhammad never attacked a different tribe or nation. he only deffended himself. they killed people, and forced indians to become muslims...destroyed churches and hindu temples, even though muhammad never did such a thing..

Muslims focused more on this life, on creating a huge khilafah state, and forgot all about their Imaan and spirituality...therefore, Guru Nanak was sent to this earth by Allah Subhana Wa Tala..not as a Nabi, not as a rasool,,,but as a Guru...a spiritual teacher.

there are just a few examples on how people fell astray from the original teachings of Islam, hinduism and chrittianty...

[max314]

:sl:

yeah I heard also that they believe in the Prophet Muhammad (sws).. that its written is some of their books but then the prophet has an other name well, basicly its the same name only in their language. And that he is the last prophet to come..
Like this was already mention in their books, before the time of the prophet. so like their book predict the comming of the prophet :confused:

:w:

I haven't read any such lines from the Granth, but I am certain that Mohammad is mentioned. A lot of Guru Nanak's verses are direct reactions to Muslims and Hindus with whom he met on his travels, and he very often uses the Islamic and Vedic belief systems to illustrate certain points. Of course, some people like to take single words out of context (Muslims jump on mentions of Islamic things and Hindus jump on mentions of Vedic things to claim that he was a Muslim or a Hindu respectively, but neither are getting the point; Nanak rejected the notion of any religion, and hence neither argument from either side makes any sense). Guru Nanak attempted to teach human compassion and the existence of One God. He used both Muslim and Hindu imagery to explain this depending on with whom he was talking:

For example:

"It is not easy to be called a Mussalman:
If there were one let him be so known.
He should first take to his heart the tenets of his faith and purge himself of all pride.
He will be a Mussalman who pursues the path shown by the founder of the creed;
who extinguishes anxiety about life and death;
who accepts the will of God as supreme;
who has faith in the Creator and surrenders himself to the Almighty.
When he has established his goodwill for all - O, Nanak - then will he be called a Mussalman."

Guru Granth Sahib
Var Mag, p.141

Here, Guru Nanak is stating that the true Muslim is the one who understands that life and death is no object, that there is but one God, and that his Will shall always be done...and to make peace with this, as per the instruction of the Prophet Mohammad. With no pride and nothing but love and "goodwill for all", only then does one become worthy of the title of a 'Muslim'.

And what of religious practices? What does Guru Nanak have to say about Islamic (well, any religion's) rituals and their worth? In the following passage, Guru Nanak talks of how virtuous deeds - and not mere ritualisms whereby one only has to go through a set form of actions - should be what are valued above all else.

"Let compassion be your mosque,
Let faith be your prayer mat,
Let honest living be your Koran,
Let modesty be the rules of observance,
Let piety be the fasts you keep;
In such wisdom try to become a Muslim:
Right conduct the Ka'ba; Truth the Prophet;
Good deeds your prayer;
Submission to the Lord's Will your rosary;
Nanak, if this you do, the Lord will be yuor Protector."

Guru Granth Sahib
Asa, p.141

Now, I'm sure you can see why some Muslims might look at the number of terms from Islamic scripture in that passage and say "Guru Nanak is a Muslim!", but if you read the actual application of those terms, you will see that Guru Nanak is very respectfully saying that such practices - be they Muslim or Hindu practices - are of little merit. They do not make one a better person or make one 'a favourite of God'. The only thing worth anything is a humble and compassionate life. Exchanging the motions of rituals with such virtue is what makes one a happy and complete human being. The Muslim who embraces this is a 'True Muslim', and the Hindu who embraces this is a 'True Hindu'.

Ooh...didn't I go on?! ;D

Hope that clears up the issue :peace:

[amardeep]

Where does it say that Muhammad is for entire of mankind?

and if he was, yet again, why did'n he travel to the world?

i've read the letters he sent to persia and etopia...they only say he is the messenger of God and i invite you to Islam.....

how does this make him a universal prophet, if he did'n even leave the side of Arabia?

at the time of Muhammad, only the people near him were muslims. at the time of the Gurus, there were sikhs in afghanistan, iran and iraq as well as india..

[Zohair]

people commented on how the followers of a religion is false, but not the religion itself. this statement has no basis to it, as muslims deduct all of the teachings from the holy qur'an. and it is historically and scientifically proven to be the exact same words as it was at the time of Muhammad SAW, so there is absolutely no change from the qur'an then, and the qur'an now.

so how is it that the followers of islam are wrong, when we are following the same qur'an as Muhammad SAW. everything that we do is in the qur'an.

so the teachings of guru nanak don't really make any sense, they say that the qur'an is true, and that Muhammad SAW was a messenger of god. and yet if you follow Muhammad SAW, apparently you have gone astray. the teachings of Muhammad SAW state that no prophet and no new religion will come after him, and that there will be no more sacred books after the quran.

and the same person keeps on responding in the same way to me:

"we don't believe in the qur'an," but according to what I have heard from the other sikhs, apparently you believe in Muhammad SAW being the messenger of god. and his teaching state that sikhism is not a way to get into heaven...

its like someone is saying to people that he is a prophet. lets call this so called prophet, prophet1. so prophet1 says that this other person is a prophet. letse call this othe prophet, prophet 2. prophet1 says that prophet 2 is right, and he is sent by god. and yet prophet2 is saying that prophet1 is a liar.

thats a perfect analogyh.

[Zohair]

Where does it say that Muhammad is for entire of mankind?

and if he was, yet again, why did'n he travel to the world?

i've read the letters he sent to persia and etopia...they only say he is the messenger of God and i invite you to Islam.....

how does this make him a universal prophet, if he did'n even leave the side of Arabia?

at the time of Muhammad, only the people near him were muslims. at the time of the Gurus, there were sikhs in afghanistan, iran and iraq as well as india..

sighhh, read my posts! in the quran, it says that he was sent for mankind. thats what makes him a universal prophet.

[Mohsin]

As difficult as it may seem for others to comprehend, Guru Nanak was sent by God! How would it look if he said that he was the true messenger? He'd have faltered from his mission. God created all the main religions judaism/Christianity/Islam/Hinduism and then Sikhism! He could say that all the other's we're false, but no, because God created them, but God saw his creation was going astray once again, so then Guru Nanak took birth!


Mitee dhund Jag Chaanan hoya, Satgur Nanak Pargatiya

The fog of ignorance dispelled when Guru Nanak Dev came and all light shone.

No i don't agree. God is one. He can only have one way. There can't be two ideologies from the same God contradicting one another. either God is everywhere or he is in heaven, not both. Either jesus is son of god or he is a prophet not both. Either there is One god, or there is more than one God. Either we all came from adam/Eve or we didn't. there is either a day of judgment and heaven/hell for everyone, or there is re-incarnation.

This is the part where i don't understand sikhism. Islam answers this perfectly. Gos through the essence of time from the first person Adam PBUh to Muhammed PBUH sent just one religion. Islam. Meaning Submission and surrendering in peaceful means to god. We obey what he has told us, and whoever obeys him is in arabic called a Muslim. For more infromation on basic principles of Islam visit here

Now by definition Adam was a Muslim, so was Noah Abraham Moses and Jesus, as they all submitted to God's will. You say God created judaism and Christianity, but in the Bible the words Judaism and christianity are not mentioned anywhere, and nowhere does Moses AS say he is a Jew or for that matter Jesus PBUH does not say he is a Christian, but both say they bow and submitt to God. (Which is what a muslim means). even with religions like Hindusim and Buddhism Zorastianism there is strong evidence that these religions were originally islam, but people changed it. There are several prophecies of prophet Muhammed, some in name, some in description of him, some in events he takes part in, in all of those scriptures

God has sent down one religion, but people have created different religions

[amardeep]

post the ayat agian, i cant seem to find it..

Muhammad was a Prophet indeed, but Nanak Dev Mahraj was a Guru..its not the same thing..

do you think that when the muslims after the death of Muhammad pbuh went and conquered the world, killing tens of thousands of people, that they were following the sunnah? they fell astray...."muslims" started loving this world more than the afterlife..

we are not saying that the true muslims who follow the Quran, are astray..but the fact of the matter is, that there are more people claiming to be muslims not followin the teachings, then there are true muslims following the teachings.

same goes with christiand and hindues..God reacted to this by sending Guru Nanak Maharaj..the only spiritual leader in the world, to ever be accepted by people of all religions..

[amardeep]

No i don't agree. God is one. He can only have one way. There can't be two ideologies from the same God contradicting one another. either God is everywhere or he is in heaven, not both. Either jesus is son of god or he is a prophet not both. Either there is One god, or there is more than one God. Either we all came from adam/Eve or we didn't. there is either a day of judgment and heaven/hell for everyone, or there is re-incarnation.

i was going to india and was going to meat my friend there who lives in pakistan.. he took the train to india, while i took the plain.

we both took each of ours mean of transportation, yet we both ended up the same place.

how can u say there is only one way to attain God??? the plain and the train also contradict eachother..
we dont say all religions are true...we just say that people of all religions can attain paradise..

This is the part where i don't understand sikhism. Islam answers this perfectly. Gos through the essence of time from the first person Adam PBUh to Muhammed PBUH sent just one religion. Islam. Meaning Submission and surrendering in peaceful means to god. We obey what he has told us, and whoever obeys him is in arabic called a Muslim. For more infromation on basic principles of Islam visit here

yes according to Islam they were all muslims. but according to their own scriptures, they did lots of things which Islam forbid...Suleiman married 600 women, and all the prophet did lots of things which is not allowed in Islam.

its like, if i create a religion, and then just say that all previus prophets belonged to my religion, even though all of their scriptures proves me wrong..then i can just say that their scripture is corrupt and VOILA i have a complete platform to create a religion..

Now by definition Adam was a Muslim, so was Noah Abraham Moses and Jesus, as they all submitted to God's will. You say God created judaism and Christianity, but in the Bible the words Judaism and christianity are not mentioned anywhere, and nowhere does Moses AS say he is a Jew or for that matter Jesus PBUH does not say he is a Christian, but both say they bow and submitt to God. (Which is what a muslim means). even with religions like Hindusim and Buddhism Zorastianism there is strong evidence that these religions were originally islam, but people changed it. There are several prophecies of prophet Muhammed, some in name, some in description of him, some in events he takes part in, in all of those scriptures

yeah an all of these "propecies" about Muhammad have been proved wrong by christians, hindues and budhists... muslims take verses out of contex and only use the verses which fits to Muhamad..

God has sent down one religion, but people have created different religions

God sent One religion...Worship of God....and this worship can be done in several ways..

[Mohsin]

Why do we need to follow him? We have respect for him as he's a messenger of the Almighty, but we do not accept him to be anything else. ![/B]

if you accept him as a messnger, you will believe that he won't lie, as God only chooses noble trustowrthy pious god-fearing epople for his cause, and Muhammed PBUH even before the advent of islam was known for his honesty. He was called The Trustworthy one by the whole of mecca, even by the pagans, and even after he converted, people continued to keep their belongings with him as they trusted him. Yet he says he is the last prophet, with nobody to come after him, and he instrcucts all people from his time till the last day who hear of his mesage to follow his way Al-Islam.

We believe Sikhism is the true way as it is the last religion created by the Almighty

There are many other religions who have also claimed to be the last religion. just to name a few Ahmaddiyahs NOI Mormons bahaiism, so why not follow that?

Shahul Hameed says it quite right here

Qualities of a Prophet of God

No one can become a prophet of God by his own choosing or effort; Allah has to choose him to be His prophet. And Allah chooses only such persons who have all the qualities necessary for that role, and He does so at the appropriate time in history, and then He protects His prophets from falling into the kind of errors that do not suit a prophet.

The first duty that a prophet of God does is to tell his people that he has been appointed a prophet by God to invite people to His way. Thus, a genuine prophet claims to be a prophet of God, though this claim in itself is not enough. But first and foremost, a prophet has to claim himself to be a prophet of God. The people often question this claim and threaten him to give up his claim. They may even offer him all kinds of temptations that ordinary humans would fall for. But the genuine prophets ignore these and go forward with their God-given mission.

So, the first question you need to ask your Sikh friend is: Did Nanak really claim to be a prophet chosen by God to lead people out of darkness into light?

If the answer is “no,” tell him that this proves that prophethood was conferred on him by his zealous followers and it is meaningless to continue to argue that Nanak was a prophet.

If the answer is “yes,” the second question is: Did Nanak approve of the roles of earlier prophets of God, especially the prophet who came just before him, Muhammad (peace be on him)?

If he says “yes,” ask him then how one can reconcile the fact that Muhammad was the Last Prophet of God and the claim that Nanak was a prophet after the Last Prophet.

The third question is whether all the Sikhs believe that their holy book, called the Adi Granth, was revealed to Nanak by God. If they say “yes,” ask them whether there is any statement to that effect in the book itself and whether Nanak said that the Adi Granth had been fully revealed to him by God. If the answer is in the affirmative, your Sikh friend has to show the proof that the above statements are true, from the Adi Granth itself. This will not be possible for him to do for the following reasons:

1. The Adi Granth is a collection of the writings of many Gurus including Nanak. It was in 1604—Nanak died in 1539—that Arjan Dev, one of the ten Gurus, compiled the hymns of Guru Nanak along with the compositions of both Hindu and Muslim holy men like Jaidev, Surdas, Sheikh Farid and Kabir. The compiled book was enshrined by Arjan in the Golden Temple with the name “Adi Granth.”

2. A prophet of God is a model for all his followers in all aspects of life. But in the case of Sikhism, we find that it was not Guru Nanak, but the tenth Guru, Gobind Singh, who organized the community of Sikhs into a khalsa, “a spiritual brotherhood devoted to purity of thought and action.” He taught his followers to wear long hair (kesh, denoting saintly appearance), underwear (kachha, denoting self-control), an iron bangle (kara, denoting purity in acts), a comb (kangha, denoting cleanliness of mind and body), and a sword (kirpan, denoting fight for a just cause).

3. Towards the end of his life, the aged Nanak returned home to Punjab and settled down at Kartharpur with his family. People came from far and near to hear his hymns and preaching. After his death, his Hindu followers thought him to be a Hindu and his Muslim followers thought him to be a Muslim.

From the foregoing, we understand that Guru Nanak was not a prophet of God, but a religious reformer of his times.

And Allah knows best.

And every word uttered by Guru Nanak and the other Gurus are devine words from God himself!

Same as the Qur'an, every word has come from god. Also as i explained in the previous post Muhammed PBUH had no free will and only ever spoke by thye permission and will of God, so what he says is, in essence, an indriect revelation

Peace

[amardeep]

Muhammad was indeed a mennenger of God, aswell as Muhammad, Krishna, Isa, Musa, Visnnu and all others..

[Mohsin]

<<If God sent Guru Nanak to become the founder of Sikhism (correct me if I am wrong), does this mean that the other religions are considered false, since you said that "God saw his creation was going astray", although they are simply not stated as being false, out of respect?
>>

Mod,

your quote is a wrong deduction.

NOWHERE in SGGS is any scripture or religion falsified.

Creation doesnot mean religions, it means the followers of religion.

please, i hope you discern the difference between "religion" and "followers of religion"

SGGS speaks out against the ill practices of the followers of other religions. But nothing about the religions themselves.

those practices might/might not have been part of the religions.

e.g Guru Nanak and Guru Amardas spoke for widow remarriage and against Sati, this doesnot mean the called Hinduism false. but the denounced the wrong deeds of the people, who happened to be followers of Hinduism.

i hope i make my point clear.

Ok but then what about when sikhs say its wrong to have halal meet, or you shouldn't go on useless pilgrimages or mecca or shouldn't pray towards ka'bah. these aren't new innovations by followers of islam, but rather have come from orders from Allah and our prophet PBUH. You believe in him as a prophet but yet you questions the above things and other things like polygamy

[amardeep]

i dont know the answar to your questions above unfortunately..

[Mohsin]

There are four castes of Hindus and four sects of Muslims in the world
The members of both religions are selfish, jealous, proud, bigoted and violent.
The Hindus make pilgrimage to Hardvar and Banaras, the Muslim to the Kaaba of Mecca.
Circumcision is dear to the Muslims, sandal mark (tilak) and sacred thread to the Hindus.
The Hindus invoke Ram, the Muslims, Rahim, but in reality there is only One God.
Since they have forgotten the Vedas and the Katebas, worldly greed and devil have led them astray.
Truth hidden from both; the brahmins and maulvis kill one another by their animosities.
Neither sect shall find liberation from transmigration. (Guru Nanak dev Ji.)

ok guru nanek being a guru from god should know about the other religions, and can not tell lies or make things up, as with help of divine knowledge from god everything is known.
So why is it sais there are 4 sects of islam. Number one, from early on there were several different movements or sects, more than 4 for sure! Surely he would have known this. if he is referring to the various schools of thoughts, then again he is in grave error as they are not sects, but rather fiqh differences and contain the same theology and creed as each other, and believe in exactly the same thing

[amardeep]

the word sect could be a wrong translation, or it could talk about the "major" sects from which all the minor sects have sprung from..for instance.

Sunni, Shia, Sufi and a forth which i do not know...

[AvarAllahNoor]

There are many other religions who have also claimed to be the last religion. just to name a few Ahmaddiyahs NOI Mormons bahaiism, so why not follow that?

I think you'll find that the above mentioned are not recognised as religions but sects/cults breakaway groups!

Sikhism is recognised as the 5th largest religion in the world!!

Please note - If we talk about Sikhi not being a major religion Islam/Christainity were spread by the sword on crusades. If Guru Gobind Singh ji wanted to convert masses like the above did, he'd have done it, and it should be noted that he'd have acomplished it without hestitation, and it's possible Sikhism would be the dominating religion of today as the the 6th Guru and the 10th were known Saintly warriors!

But Sikhi isn't about quantity but quality :)

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Thank you for answering my questions. I think I was misunderstood about the SGGS - I was asking whether there are any recordings for us to listen to, and appreciate the musical way in which it is said to be read.

Peace :).

[max314]

yeh.. but i heard it too - that the guru nanak was a muslim and he worshipped one god. but the people imitated his actions and dress code instead of focusing on the beliefs that he had.. but yeh u are right that it was mentioned in the hindu scriptures about our beloved Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him and his family) but under a different name.

According to Guru Nanak, some call Him "Alläh", others call him "Räm"...and there are a thousand others who have a thousand different man-made names for him. None of them are 'true' and none of them are 'false'. They are just different names by which to call the same rose.

And as for the 'form' of Sikkhs, this did not begin to take shape until the sixth guru, Guru Hargobind. But yes, I do agree that there are many Sikkhs who - like the Muslim and Hindu practitioners encountered by Guru Nanak - value their rituals more than the virtue they were supposed to instill.

the same even applies in the persian scriptures:

http://www.geocities.com/islamicmira...arsi_scrip.htm

they even mentioned in the buddhist scriptures too!

http://www.geocities.com/islamicmira...scriptures.htm

I've got an idea: let's go through that list of Buddhist scriptures and see how closely it adheres to Guru Nanak. Just for fun :okay:

At his death bed his grief-stricken disciples asked him who will provide them guidance after him. The Buddha consoled them by saying; “Do not think I am the only Buddha. There had been many before me and will be many after me. (Compare this with the Qur’anic Verse 26:9 “say (O Muhammad): I am no new thing among Messengers (of Allah....). At appropriate time a great Buddha will come.”

Personally, I think that the Buddha is saying that wise men have come and gone. Indeed, Guru Nanak promotes associating with those who are devoted to näm (the indescribable 'name') as well. And, of course, Guru Nanak came after Buddha.

* He will be born in a country to west ( and not in India). Remember that Arabia is in the west of India.

It's important not to consider the word "country" in the modern context. Once upon a time, India was not one country, but a throng of warring kingdoms. Buddha was born in the city of Lumbini on what is today the India-Nepal border. Guru Nanak was born West of this, in the city of Lahore, that is now in present-day Pakistan.

* He will migrate from his homeland.

Yer damn straight, he will :happy: Click here to see a map that covers the extensive geography walked by Guru Nanak.

* He will look at the Universe face to face. (Compare this with Mi’raj).

He certainly did that. The mül mantra that he wrote after three days of meditation reflects this in its entirety, and is the passage that opens the Guru Granth Sahib:

"There is but one God. He is all that is.
He is the Creator of all things and He is all-pervasive.
He is without fear and without enmity.
He is timeless, unborn and self-existent.
He is the Enlightener
And can be realised by his grace alone.
He was in the beginning; He was in all ages.
The True One is, was - O Nanak - and shall forever be."

Guru Granth Sahib
Japji, p.1

Well, damn if that ain't the whole universe in one pretty-lookin' piece o' poetry ;)

* His countrymen cannot be reformed until his advent.

His cultural revolution made way for the succeeding nine gurus, the last of whom gave India its first real sense of identity and equality. India had never seen a reformation like this before or since. It was the first major step towards forming what is modern-day India.

* He will preach the same religion as mine but its perfection and success will reach peak stage only in his time (Compare this with the Qur’anic Verse 5:3 “..... I have perfected your religion for you.. . and have chosen Al Islam for you as religion... “).

Well, every religion claims "perfection". But I think that the purity of the mül mantra speaks for itself. And the way in which the form of the Khalsa proved so effective in forming the India's first secular government is a reflection on just how refined ("perfected", if you will) this form was.

* While my disciples are in hundreds, his will be in thousands.

I don't know how many there were in Guru Nanak's time, but by Guru Gobind Singh Ji's time, there were indeed "thousands".

The Chief disciple Ananda asked him how to identify the great Buddha when he eventually comes. Gautama told them,

* “His name will be Maitreya.”
The word maitreya means love, kindness, compassion, mercy, and so on.

If you take that literally, it obviously appears to mean that the name itself will have the definition of those virtous things. In actuality, one could interpret this as meaning that the 'next Buddha' would preach and practice those virtues. Guru Nanak certainly preached that. At the age of eleven, Guru Nanak was to wear a sacred thread called a janeu. He refused to wear it, saying:

"Out of the cotton of compassion
Spin the thread of contentment,
Tie the knot of contience, and the twist of virtue;
Make such a sacred thread;
O Pundit, for your inner self."

Guru Granth Sahib
Asa, p.471

i think nearly all scriptures must have had it mentioned (because the people who had the original scriptures were probably really pious - and every nation who is told about islam will get judged) but the people must have changed their scriptures to suit their own needs.

Allah u a'lam

wasalam o 'alykum warahmatulahi wabarakatuh.

Hopefully, I've shown that Mohammad is not the only historical 'holy man' whose coming can be seen as being prophecised in the Buddhist words you quoted. Like star signs, they're so vague that they could apply to just about any of them ;)

[AvarAllahNoor]

Greetings,

Thank you for answering my questions. I think I was misunderstood about the SGGS - I was asking whether there are any recordings for us to listen to, and appreciate the musical way in which it is said to be read.

Peace :).

Here are a few links

This is Snatan Kaur awesome voice and she reads/sings the bani beautifully!

http://www.spiritvoyage.com/shopping...ps.cfm?PC=1200

I'll find you some more!

[Zohair]

post the ayat agian, i cant seem to find it..

you said that people who follow the qur'an correctly will not go astray. in these ayats, and in what the Prophet Muhammad SAW says don't follow any other religions after Islam, because Islam is the final religion and the Prophet Muhammad SAW is the last and final messenger. you said guru and prophet are different things, well the prophet SAW also said that there is to be no religion after Islam.

here are the verses:

Surah (chapter) 33 verse 40:

*{Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of Allah and the seal of all the prophets. And Allah knows all things.}*

and the Prophet SAW said:

"O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray."

I think that if someone as big as guru nanek were to come, the prophet SAW would have told us of his coming, as the prophets in the past have told their people about the Prophet Muhammad SAW.

the Prophet Muhammad SAW gave accurate predictions of what would happen from the time of his death until the day of judgement. all the major signs and the minor signs, he spoke of Jesus christ returning to this earth and killing the anit-christ (dajjal). he did not speak about guru nanek. If guru nanek were to be a true person of god, Prophet Muhammad SAW would have surely told us about him.

Also, the Muslims after the Prophet Muhammad SAW, some of them went astray yes, but the majority were on the right path. and you don't need a messenger to come after and guide people to the right way again because the prophet SAW left the qur'an and sunnah so that mankind will always have the truth with them.

[amardeep]

the muslims went conquering the world, killing thousand of thousands of civilians..do you call this the sunnah of the prophet?

Yazid, the chaliph, murdered the Profets family in Kerbala..do you call this a just rule?? most muslims went astray..they forgot about God and started conquering the world.

nowhere in the Quran is it stated that Muhammad saws is for mankind. it says Wa Khattam al Nabeen, but Guru Maharaj never claimed to be a Nabi or a rasool..they were sent by God to put people back on their rightfull path, be it Islam or hinduism, or Sikhism if that is what they want and desire.

no scripture preaches of Muhammad..all of the prophecies has been debunked by budhist, hindues, christians and jews....

and u say "If guru nanek were to be a true person of god, Prophet Muhammad SAW would have surely told us about him.".

u say surely..which means that you are making a conclusion of your own..why would Muhammad talk about a person, who noone would be alive to see? Guru Nanak Maharaj was born 800 years after all of the remaining sahabas of Muhammad were dead..who would he say it to??

the Ahlul Bayt of Shii'sm actually talks about a divine crowd of people in India...here is your proof and prophecy...

[AvarAllahNoor]

I think that if someone as big as guru nanek were to come, the prophet SAW would have told us of his coming, as the prophets in the past have told their people about the Prophet Muhammad SAW.

the Prophet Muhammad SAW gave accurate predictions of what would happen from the time of his death until the day of judgement. all the major signs and the minor signs, he spoke of Jesus christ returning to this earth and killing the anit-christ (dajjal). he did not speak about guru nanek. If guru nanek were to be a true person of god, Prophet Muhammad SAW would have surely told us about him.

Also, the Muslims after the Prophet Muhammad SAW, some of them went astray yes, but the majority were on the right path. and you don't need a messenger to come after and guide people to the right way again because the prophet SAW left the qur'an and sunnah so that mankind will always have the truth with them.

Well you live by what the Koran says we live by what the Guru Granth Ji says!

If monahmmed didn't prophecise the coming of Guru Nanak that to us is of no relevence all we know is Guru ji came and Sikhi is the result! :)

[Zohair]

Muhammad is a mercy to the entire world - that is in the qur'an and it is a very famous line.

I use the word "surely" because I am "sure", he would have told us about him. because muhammad was not only for the arabs of his time, he was for the whole world and the people after him, so he gave us prophecies of people who would come. the Mahdi is a good example, none of the sahaba will be alive to see him.

and it says here that NO NEW FATIH will be born

"O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray."

[amardeep]

lol....are you using that quote as evidence?? even muslims are arguing on what he said that day..u say Quran and Hadith, while shia say Quran and Ahlul Bayt...that is not an evidence..

and so what if he talked about mahdi? he hasent come yet, and even Jesus talked about him..nothing new there..

[AvarAllahNoor]

Muhammad is a mercy to the entire world - that is in the qur'an and it is a very famous line.

I use the word "surely" because I am "sure", he would have told us about him. because muhammad was not only for the arabs of his time, he was for the whole world and the people after him, so he gave us prophecies of people who would come. the Mahdi is a good example, none of the sahaba will be alive to see him.

and it says here that NO NEW FATIH will be born

"O people! No prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore O people! And, understand words that I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Qur’an and the sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray."

If the koran claims that adam and moses etc are prophets, why do you not revert back to being Jews/christians as they were the first and your ancestors were jews/christians! Why even bother with Islam?

[Zohair]

No offence, but this debate is just pointless and a waste of time. I suggest you EDUCATE yourselves about islam before you try to debate it. some of your points are too nonsensical. don't believe things that people tell you, go to the direct source. there were many things in the last few posts that were just blatantly (if thats a word) WRONG.

aight, I'm outta here, peeaccee

[starfortress]

:sl:
greeting to all

After a long observation in sikh, i think sikh is pluralism in relegion,like someone describe in the last few post "different transport reach the same destination"
Islam never accept the concept of "pluralism in relegion practise" or as it doctrine,but we could accept it in other context(case) like a comparative religion or interfaith dialogue,...btw the the plurism theory is "easy on paper but hard to practise" isn't it?
Islam, like most other monotheistic faiths, views itself as the only true path for following the will of God and going to Paradise. Nonetheless, Muslims consider the monotheistic faiths that precededed it, Judaism and Christianity, as valid for their followers. (Qur'an, Sura 5, verse 44 and verses 46-7, verse 69)

peace

[AvarAllahNoor]

I came across these verses, if anyone could shed light please!

The Koran commands Muslims not to befriend Jews or Christists "0 ye who believe (Muslims) take not the Jews or the Christists for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them" (Surat AI-Maidah 5:51).

"Kill the Mushrikun (polytheists, Christists and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-salat (public prayer with Muslims) and give Zakat (Islamic alms), then leave their way free. Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful' (Surat At-Taubah 9;5).

[jss]

lol I understand that but a person said that sikh's believe in the qur'an, but they don't believe it was the final scripture, and they don't believe Muhammad SAW, was hte last prophet, so I put those verses.

The Guru Granth Sahib emphasises respect for all religions. If someone calls the Quran false then that is contrary to the Guru's teachings.
Furthermore there have been and many amazing Muslims who do alot of good deeds and serve humanity in this dark age. Therefore to malign a whole group of people due to their beliefs is totally wrong and not gurmat (the Guru's path)

Now the difference between the Guru Granth Sahib and other scriptures is this.
Guru means:-
Gu=from darkness
Ru=into light

The Guru Granth Sahib contains the treasure of the Lord and guides us on on a simpler and better path to be unison with the almighty. There is guidance on how to live and reach the highest goal, finding God within oneself and become God realised. There is only one command in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji-and that is jap (meditate).

Not everyone, due to their karam or karma has the chance to reach this stage of spiritual development. One would only step on this path of gurmat by Gurprasad (Guru's grace).

Hope that clarifies a few things.

bhul chuk maaf

GurFateh

[Mohsin]

TWe say the followers of Islam and hinduism went astray.
Hindu scriptures only talks about One God..hinduism is a monoteistic religion, yet the followers worship several Gods..they fell astray from their scriptures in many ways.

same goes with muslims. Right after the death of Muhamad, Muslims started robbing and conquering the world. yet Muhammad never attacked a different tribe or nation. he only deffended himself. they killed people, and forced indians to become muslims...destroyed churches and hindu temples, even though muhammad never did such a thing..

Muslims focused more on this life, on creating a huge khilafah state, and forgot all about their Imaan and spirituality...therefore, Guru Nanak was sent to this earth by Allah Subhana Wa Tala..not as a Nabi, not as a rasool,,,but as a Guru...a spiritual teacher.

there are just a few examples on how people fell astray from the original teachings of Islam, hinduism and chrittianty...

Yes but the problem here is you are generalising. Not all muslims had gone astray. A lot were still practising good muslims, its only the corrupt rulers in power who had gone astray due to the money they now had which got to their heads. There is nthinh wrong with the initial revelation that Allah SWT sent down, as some poeple were still practising it, some weren't. Now in islam this life is a test for us, so it's obvious that those who follow the laws will attain salvation on T.D.O.J. but those who don't follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, ie unpractising muslims, they could end up in hell.

But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the revelation, or for that matter it doesn't mean there is any need for God to send another teacher like Guru Nanek. For example he was sent right? Did he ALL bring muslims back to the true path? No. Even if you look at all the sikh followers, i know of so many sikhs who drink, gamble, do drugs have girlfriends withour parents knowing. These are going against the teachings of Guru nanek. So according to you if Guru Nanek came to bring all people back to the true path then i guess he failed pretty badly. So that leads me to ask why would God say the Shariah (The law) to prophet Muhammed PBUH is eternal for the rest of time, for the rest of mankind, and that there will be no Prophet to come, but yet God a few hundred years later sends 10 Gurus with new rules. Are you suggesting God changed his mind??

In Islam it is simple. This life is a test. We will be tested through many things, wealth, poverty, death to relatives and many others, all the time God is testing us to see how loyal we stay and there will be salvation for those who stayed loyal on The Day of Judgement.

[Mohsin]

Nanak rejected the notion of any religion, and hence neither argument from either side makes any sense)

Yes but then Why had the same God sent down religions previously to the other messengers

but if you read the actual application of those terms, you will see that Guru Nanak is very respectfully saying that such practices - be they Muslim or Hindu practices - are of little merit. They do not make one a better person or make one 'a favourite of God'. The only thing worth anything is a humble and compassionate life

There are many errors with your above statement. Firstly it also says in The Qur'an the only way we differ in front of God is by piety, not by what Sex we are, what race we come from, our lineage, age wealth, but our piety alone.

49:13 O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honourable of you with Allah is the most pious. Verily, Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.

Now we attain piety by following the rules and commands of God. Now all the rituals Guru nanek mentions above are what God (my God, your God, and the God that send Prophet Muhammed PBUH whom you believe in) has instruct3d us to do. is that clear, so these aren't useless rituals that are of little merit. I don't understand why would Guru nanek speak against what God had ordained for previous Prophets

[AvarAllahNoor]

Even if you look at all the sikh followers, i know of so many sikhs who drink, gamble, do drugs have girlfriends withour parents knowing. These are going against the teachings of Guru nanek. So according to you if Guru Nanek came to bring all people back to the true path then i guess he failed pretty badly. So that leads me to ask why would God say the Shariah (The law) to prophet Muhammed PBUH is eternal for the rest of time, for the rest of mankind, and that there will be no Prophet to come, but yet God a few hundred years later sends 10 Gurus with new rules. Are you suggesting God changed his mind??

.

They were brought back into the correct path, at that time. Yes, Sikhs have faultered but we could argue so have the muslims, christians, jews etc etc. But that has no reflection on the teachings of the prophets does it? It's solely on us!

As for God chaining his mind, ohi janae. But he felt it necessary to send Guru Nanak. Otherwise he wouldn't have sent him would he!

[Mohsin]

Where does it say that Muhammad is for entire of mankind?

and if he was, yet again, why did'n he travel to the world?

i've read the letters he sent to persia and etopia...they only say he is the messenger of God and i invite you to Islam.....

how does this make him a universal prophet, if he did'n even leave the side of Arabia?

at the time of Muhammad, only the people near him were muslims. at the time of the Gurus, there were sikhs in afghanistan, iran and iraq as well as india..

The Prophet said: 'Every Prophet used to be sent to his people alone but I have been sent to all mankind'. (Sahîh Bukhârî)

It says in The Qur'an he is the seal of the prophethood, and Allah also says he is the mercy for the rest of mankind, i will try and find it for you insha'allah

[Mohsin]

post the ayat agian, i cant seem to find it..

Which ayah?

do you think that when the muslims after the death of Muhammad pbuh went and conquered the world, killing tens of thousands of people, that they were following the sunnah? they fell astray...."muslims" started loving this world more than the afterlife..

we are not saying that the true muslims who follow the Quran, are astray..but the fact of the matter is, that there are more people claiming to be muslims not followin the teachings, then there are true muslims following the teachings

I replied to this here

Yes but the problem here is you are generalising. Not all muslims had gone astray. A lot were still practising good muslims, its only the corrupt rulers in power who had gone astray due to the money they now had which got to their heads. There is nthinh wrong with the initial revelation that Allah SWT sent down, as some poeple were still practising it, some weren't. Now in islam this life is a test for us, so it's obvious that those who follow the laws will attain salvation on T.D.O.J. but those who don't follow the Qur'an and Sunnah, ie unpractising muslims, they could end up in hell.

But that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the revelation, or for that matter it doesn't mean there is any need for God to send another teacher like Guru Nanek. For example he was sent right? Did he ALL bring muslims back to the true path? No. Even if you look at all the sikh followers, i know of so many sikhs who drink, gamble, do drugs have girlfriends withour parents knowing. These are going against the teachings of Guru nanek. So according to you if Guru Nanek came to bring all people back to the true path then i guess he failed pretty badly. So that leads me to ask why would God say the Shariah (The law) to prophet Muhammed PBUH is eternal for the rest of time, for the rest of mankind, and that there will be no Prophet to come, but yet God a few hundred years later sends 10 Gurus with new rules. Are you suggesting God changed his mind??

In Islam it is simple. This life is a test. We will be tested through many things, wealth, poverty, death to relatives and many others, all the time God is testing us to see how loyal we stay and there will be salvation for those who stayed loyal on The Day of Judgement.

Guru Nanak Maharaj..the only spiritual leader in the world, to ever be accepted by people of all religions..

he's not accepted by Muslims. if he's claimed to be a Prophet then Muslims consider him to be an Anti-Christ. Prophet Muhammed made prophecies of people who will come near the last day, like the return of Prophet Jesus PBUH, and the just ruler Imam Mahdi, but he never mentioned Guru Nanek

[AvarAllahNoor]

he's not accepted by Muslims. if he's claimed to be a Prophet then Muslims consider him to be an Anti-Christ. Prophet Muhammed made prophecies of people who will come near the last day, like the return of Prophet Jesus PBUH, and the just ruler Imam Mahdi, but he never mentioned Guru Nanek

Not by the ignorant ones obviously!

He never claimed to be anything other than a servant of God!

[Mohsin]

i was going to india and was going to meat my friend there who lives in pakistan.. he took the train to india, while i took the plain.

we both took each of ours mean of transportation, yet we both ended up the same place.

how can u say there is only one way to attain God??? the plain and the train also contradict eachother..
we dont say all religions are true...we just say that people of all religions can attain paradise..

God does not reqire false worship off us. of course if we are righteous and do good deeds then Allah will reward us, i'm not saying he won't. But there is only one path to God. How can there be Heaven or Hell for every single person to be born (As it says in the semetic religions), and at the same time how can there be reincarnation. How can Jesus be a Son of god and a prophet at the same time?

Look at what is says in the Quran here

And they say: the Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a Son. Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing, whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall to ruins, that ye ascribe to the Beneficent a son, when it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should chose a son. There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave. (Qur’an 19:88-93)

You can see how angry God is at people who claim jesus PBUH is more than a prophet. So how can God accept such people who accuse god and his prophets nof such blaspheomous allegations

yes according to Islam they were all muslims. but according to their own scriptures, they did lots of things which Islam forbid...Suleiman married 600 women, and all the prophet did lots of things which is not allowed in Islam.

its like, if i create a religion, and then just say that all previus prophets belonged to my religion, even though all of their scriptures proves me wrong..then i can just say that their scripture is corrupt and VOILA i have a complete platform to create a religion..

Under different periods of History to diifferent nations to different sets of epopel God sent different laws with different purposes. So the laws of before maybe slightly diffferent, ie The jews of prophet Moses PBUH didn't pray 5 times a day but if i'm correct they prayed 2 times a day as this is what God wnated of them. So there is no contradiction. Also even christians and Jews admit openly that some of their scriptures may have been changed. In the Old testament it accuses several priophets of great major sins, as muslims we don't believe that is possible as they are great people that God chose who can't disobey him, therefore these must be alterations by people later.

And you can't simply create a new religion and VOILA
A thats it, your scripture/call/character/religion will be scrutinised and checked to see the validity of the divinity in your message. Qur'an passes such a test everytime with no error or contradiction. Prophet Muhammed for 40 years was known by his people as the truthfuil one, not once was he know to lie, and all of a sudden he started leiing at 40 years of age, and not just that, lieing about the greatet of things, lieing about God?? Illogical in anyonmes opinion

yeah an all of these "propecies" about Muhammad have been proved wrong by christians, hindues and budhists... muslims take verses out of contex and only use the verses which fits to Muhamad..

Not true Hundreds of christians convert because of these prophecies, and as have loadsa Hindus. Of course some will deny, but thats the easy option to take, why don't you judge the prophecies for yourself?

God sent One religion...Worship of God....and this worship can be done in several ways..

Ok why would the prophet Muhammed PBUH tell us then that whovever hears of my message and rejects it will be in the hellfire, and also whoever doesn't pray 5 times a day will sin. Either he is right, or he is wrong

[Mohsin]

I think you'll find that the above mentioned are not recognised as religions but sects/cults breakaway groups!

Sikhism is recognised as the 5th largest religion in the world!!

Please note - If we talk about Sikhi not being a major religion Islam/Christainity were spread by the sword on crusades. If Guru Gobind Singh ji wanted to convert masses like the above did, he'd have done it, and it should be noted that he'd have acomplished it without hestitation, and it's possible Sikhism would be the dominating religion of today as the the 6th Guru and the 10th were known Saintly warriors!

But Sikhi isn't about quantity but quality :)

I find it sad and disappointing for you to make the staememts as above. Islam was not spread by the sword. Okay in india the mioghuls were corrupt rulers, but in places like Malaysia indonesia and the rest of arabia it was free will and choice. Ask yourself logically, today, look at the masses of epople converting to Islam everyday, where is the sword today? If it isn't needed today where everyone is more forward than they were 1400 years ago, then surely it wasn't needed before

[Mohsin]

the muslims went conquering the world, killing thousand of thousands of civilians..do you call this the sunnah of the prophet?

this is completely false, this never happened. Maybe a few times by corrupt rulers but in general no such thing ever happened

Yazid, the chaliph, murdered the Profets family in Kerbala..do you call this a just rule?? most muslims went astray..they forgot about God and started conquering the world.

You don't know the history, and context of what happened. there were corrupt rulers, but that doesn't mean there is need for another prophet PBUH. Don't you think God would have known such people will have gone astray? So why did he say no prophet was to come after Muhammed PBUH. And even after the guru came, he diodn't exactly fix this problem, there are still deviant muslims, and even deviant sikhs. According to you does that mean another prophet will come?

nowhere in the Quran is it stated that Muhammad saws is for mankind. it says Wa Khattam al Nabeen, but Guru Maharaj never claimed to be a Nabi or a rasool..they were sent by God to put people back on their rightfull path, be it Islam or hinduism, or Sikhism if that is what they want and desire

[33:40] Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the messenger of Allah and the seal of all the prophets.

[21:107] We sent thee not save as a mercy for the peoples

[Mohsin]

lol....are you using that quote as evidence?? even muslims are arguing on what he said that day..u say Quran and Hadith, while shia say Quran and Ahlul Bayt...that is not an evidence..

and so what if he talked about mahdi? he hasent come yet, and even Jesus talked about him..nothing new there..

We are using it as a quote as you believe the Prophet PBUH to be a true messenger, so whatever thta is in the Qur'an must be from God, and he has said no messenger is to come, so why would God lie then send someone else?

[Mohsin]

I came across these verses, if anyone could shed light please!

The Koran commands Muslims not to befriend Jews or Christists "0 ye who believe (Muslims) take not the Jews or the Christists for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them" (Surat AI-Maidah 5:51).

"Kill the Mushrikun (polytheists, Christists and non-Muslims), wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-salat (public prayer with Muslims) and give Zakat (Islamic alms), then leave their way free. Allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful' (Surat At-Taubah 9;5).

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Misquoted/#19

http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Misquoted/#9

[Mohsin]

<<No offence, but this debate is just pointless and a waste of time. I suggest you EDUCATE yourselves about islam before you try to debate it. some of your points are too nonsensical. don't believe things that people tell you, go to the direct source. there were many things in the last few posts that were just blatantly (if thats a word) WRONG.
>>>

same way for you, bro.

mere quoting from Koran cannot prove other texts and religions as false.


regarding educating ourselves on ISLAM, well i am trying to do so, independent study of Koran.


could you point out the irrrelevant, nonsensical points????


but i am not outta here

i am gonna be here and answer questions on sikhism and ask questions on islam and compare them

peace

truthseeker, you don't understand.

You guys claim to accept Prophet Muhammed PBUH, am i right? You also accept Qur'an as a divine revelation, am i right? We are saying if you believe Prophet Muhammed PBUH how can you believe Guru Nanek who preached something completely different???
All the Porphets beforer Muhammed PBUH all had different laws, but their basic beliefs were all the same, that this life is a test, and there will be heaven/hell. So why did God lie to Prophet Muhammed PBUh by telling him this??

[Mohsin]

They were brought back into the correct path, at that time. Yes, Sikhs have faultered but we could argue so have the muslims, christians, jews etc etc. But that has no reflection on the teachings of the prophets does it? It's solely on us!

As for God chaining his mind, ohi janae. But he felt it necessary to send Guru Nanak. Otherwise he wouldn't have sent him would he!

Yopu don't understadn, i wrote the above post in reply to what someone said that Guru nanek came to bring people back to the true path as they had gone astray. i said don't judge a religion on what some people do. just because some muslims have become deviant, it doesn't mean all have. If people were to follow their scriptures there would be no deviance from the true path. So there is no need for another Guru/messenger to come. basically it was being argued that guru nanek came to bring people to the true path. Well if that is why he came why did he not fulfill his mission. There are still ill-practising muslims, and ill-practising sikhs. The solution again is the same as it was before God is supposed to have sent nanek, Go back to your scriptures and follow what god has said. Thus i ask if this is the same as before, ie follow your scripture, then there was no need ever for nanek to come as all the deviant muslims had to do was follow their scripture

As for God chaining his mind, ohi janae. But he felt it necessary to send Guru Nanak. Otherwise he wouldn't have sent him would he

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. God can't change his mind. What is 4cm last year is still 4cm today. if he had said previously Muhammed PBUH is the last Prophet/Teacher/Guide/Light to creation, then that is what he has said and meant, and thus whoever comes after him can't be a guru or a prophet or a teacher or whatever you wnat to call them

Otherwise he wouldn't have sent him would he

Precisely my point, god didn't, as he can't change his mind

[Mohsin]

Not by the ignorant ones obviously!

He never claimed to be anything other than a servant of God!

What do you mean by this. We are all servants of God. If he claims to be a servant then yes we accept him. if he claims God has spoken to him, or has given him a status above that of a normal human, ie that of Prophethood or of being a Guru, then all muslims unanimously reject him as being a liar, as it goes against our teachings. Simple as that. Sorry if that has come out offensive but that is what we believe. Its the same as Christians who believe Muhammed PBUH to be a liar, and Jews who believe jesus PBUH to be a liar, its what we have to accept

[Mohsin]

If the koran claims that adam and moses etc are prophets, why do you not revert back to being Jews/christians as they were the first and your ancestors were jews/christians! Why even bother with Islam?

because if you look at what they said in the Torah/Gospel, they never claimed to be Jews/ Christians

Jews come from the tribe of Judah, and ironically Moses is not from the tribe of judah, technically spekaing he's not a Jew, but a levite. But anyway thats another discussion. Moses never claimed to be a jew, never claimed to be a starter of judaism or anything. he was the same as his forfather Abraham, one who submitted his will to god, ie a Muslim. Someobody who submitts their way to god is a muslim. You can claim sikhs to be submitting their will to god, but we say no you are committing false worship, and god has not ordained for you the3 things you do in your religion, and so you are not submitting your will to God. Again this is our beliefs, i didn't meant to insult you or your religion

[AvarAllahNoor]

Sorry, that doesn't cut it. God can't change his mind. What is 4cm last year is still 4cm today. if he had said previously Muhammed PBUH is the last Prophet/Teacher/Guide/Light to creation, then that is what he has said and meant, and thus whoever comes after him can't be a guru or a prophet or a teacher or whatever you wnat to call them



Precisely my point, god didn't, as he can't change his mind

He can't? And why not? And Sikhism is living proof that he did! Accept it or not, it's the truth brother!

Our religion, which was founded on principles of interfaith, is Sikhism, whose founders have since 1469 defined and preached the rule of interfaith dialogue and interfaith respect. A Sikh by definition must respect and accept all other world religions.

This is what the SGGS says regarding the different spiritual routes:

“Without the Lord’s Name, life is worthless.

Through doubt, the people are being destroyed.
One who recognizes that all spiritual paths lead to the One shall be emancipated.
One who speaks lies shall fall into hell and burn.
In the entire world, the most blessed and sanctified are those who remain absorbed in Truth.
One who eliminates selfishness and conceit is redeemed in the Court of the Lord. ((9))"

SGGS page 142

[Mohsin]

No brother you don't understand my point. I am saying why did God change his mind and go back on his word saying there will be no other prophet to come. You said you don't know why he changed his mind, but you said you felt it necessary to send guru nanek otherwise he wouldn't have. So all i am saying is God had known from the start what would have happened, so if he had said there will be no need to send another Prophet and Muhammed PBUH is the last, then he would have known it was not necessary to send another Prophet PBUH. So thus i don't believe he sent nanek. the fact that so many sikhs exist is besides the point. How many followers of nation Of islam exist, does that make it a true religion? of course not

As for God chaining his mind, ohi janae. But he felt it necessary to send Guru Nanak. Otherwise he wouldn't have sent him would he!

Number 1 God cabn't change his mind
Number 2 there was no need to send nank, as if he was sent to bring people back to the true path, then he failed, as un-muslims continued in their same ways, and many sikhs have also deviated

[AvarAllahNoor]

We're going around in circles dude!!

[Mohsin]

We're going around in circles dude!!

Lol i know what you're saying, but i feel you haven't answered my questions.

It says in your scriptures the Qur'an isn't false. But yet it contradicts your beliefs time and time again, so what is it, is it false or not.

If god has said Muahammed is the last prophet then why did he send another. in islam god is perfect he can't change his mind. in sikhism obviousluy he can and does not know the future (please correct me if i am wrong). Ask yourself, which ideology seems more correct, a perfect God who knows the future and can't err and contradict and change his mind, or a God who changes his mind because he realsies he needs to send another prophet (nanak)as the previous ones (Muhammed PBUH) followers have gone astray, but yet this again failas as many sikhs also do not follow their own scriptures and do sins

To me islam answers this perfectly, but Sikhism can't

[AvarAllahNoor]

Lol i know what you're saying, but i feel you haven't answered my questions.

It says in your scriptures the Qur'an isn't false. But yet it contradicts your beliefs time and time again, so what is it, is it false or not.

If god has said Muahammed is the last prophet then why did he send another. in islam god is perfect he can't change his mind. in sikhism obviousluy he can and does not know the future (please correct me if i am wrong). Ask yourself, which ideology seems more correct, a perfect God who knows the future and can't err and contradict and change his mind, or a God who changes his mind because he realsies he needs to send another prophet (nanak)as the previous ones (Muhammed PBUH) followers have gone astray, but yet this again failas as many sikhs also do not follow their own scriptures and do sins

To me islam answers this perfectly, but Sikhism can't

As i've said before, Sikhs are told to respect all the other scriptures but we believe in none of them! We have the Guru Granth Ji, this is the only true word of God to us! Just as the koran is to you!!

The Sikh Gurus were in direct communion with God and narrated only God’s Word. Guru Nanak Dev Ji writes, “When I speak, I speak as You make me speak” (Guru Granth Sahib, 565).

Furthermore, the fourth Guru, Guru Ram Das Ji writes, “O God, O Creator, Lord and Master of the devotee Nanak, as You wish, so do I speak” (Guru Granth Sahib, 800).

In addition, “O Sikhs of Guru, know that the Word of the True Guru is true, absolutely true. The Creator Lord Himself causes the Guru to chant it” (Guru Granth Sahib, 308).

Everything Sikh Gurus said was instructed to them by God. Guru Arjun Dev Ji (the fifth Guru) writes, “What can I say? I don't know what to say. Whatever pleases God, so do I speak” (Guru Granth Sahib, 1202).

In addition, “The Word of the Guru has been emanated from God. It eradicates all anxiety” (Guru Granth Sahib, 627).

Before the coming of the Gurus, India was filled with discrimination due to a very strong belief in the caste system. Most people believed in making pilgrimages, black magic and other such superstitions. Essentially people had forgotten God. God sent the Sikh Gurus in this world in order to enlighten people and showed them the path to salvation and eternal bliss.

The tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes, “I did not want to come in this world. My mind was immersed in God. Then somehow God explained me His purpose and sent me to this world with His directive. Then God said, ‘I establish thee as my son, You are to create a religion. Go and create a religion and stop people from doing unrighteousness and evil actions.’ I stood up, with my palms joined and bowing my head to God and said, ‘I will only be able to create a religion when You help me.’ This is the reason God send me in this world and I was born in this world. I speak as God told me. I have no enmity with anyone. Those who call me God, will fall into the pit of hell. Consider me as a humble servant of God and have no doubt about it. I am a servant of the Supreme Being and have come to witness His worldly play. I have come in this world for this purpose. God sent me for the purpose of religion. Wherever you will spread this religion, evil and wicked will be eliminated. I have taken birth for this purpose. Let the holy men understand this well. I have come to spread the divine religion, protection of the devotees of God and the annihilation (elimination) of all evils.” (Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Vachitar Natak).

Hence Guru Gobind Singh Ji completed the purpose for which he and the nine Gurus before Him were sent: by creating the Sikh religion. God’s purpose of enlightening people was started by sending Guru Nanak Dev Ji in this world, carried on by sending the next eight Gurus and completed by sending Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Hence Sikhism is a religion created by God through the Sikh Gurus.

This is it in a nutshell! Doubt all you want, but it is the will of ALLAH!

[AvarAllahNoor]

Sikhism is a religion on its own.

It disapproves neither of the religions, hinduism, islam, christianity........ it disapproves false rituals and promotes harmonious, simple living while remembering One God.

I'm hoping my last post will be of much benefit to him!

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Thank you AvarAllahNoor for the link, it was interesting :).

who keeps deleting my posts?????

moderators????
is this fair ????

I don't think any of your recent posts have been deleted; the only ones which have were those in response to disrespectful posts that were also deleted.

Peace.

[AvarAllahNoor]

hi

just wanted to add to post of AAN

the quote he provided from vachitar Natak is from the autobiographical text by Guru Gobind singh.

that is not a part of SGGS

regards,

Yeh i know - where it's from the Bani i've made refrence to it!

You've got mail btw! :)

[amardeep]

mohsin.

u wrote :

The Prophet said: 'Every Prophet used to be sent to his people alone but I have been sent to all mankind'. (Sahîh Bukhârî)

so i guess bukhari is sahih for you, otherwise you would not have quoted him.
lets use bukhari then, and see wheter if Muhammad fits to being a "universal" and last prophet..


look at this hadith.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...t.html#006.061.

it says that Muhammad forgot a verse from the Quran. how can a universel and the seal of prophets forget a verse from the Quran????
Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj, The final Guru, remembered and dictated the entire Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee from his mind.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen....html#003.0671

How can a prophet of God go naked in public? isent he suppose to be a holy person and have chastity.
lets not forget:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#007.062.006

how he slept with all of his wives.. isent a Prophet of God supposed to be able to control his earthly desires??

here are two hadith saying he forgot his prayers.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#002.022.321

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#001.008.394


seal of prophets ?? i think not...

im not syaing this to offend Muhammad..im just saying that, he could not possibly have been the last messenger of God, when he did all these things...

there will always be messengers..maybe not rasools, and nabis...but messengers, sure htere willl

[amardeep]

mohsin u wrote

Number 1 God cabn't change his mind
Number 2 there was no need to send nank, as if he was sent to bring people back to the true path, then he failed, as un-muslims continued in their same ways, and many sikhs have also deviated

so God cant change his mind? i see..what about when the Quran says that verses are being abrogated??
like this one:

002.106
YUSUFALI: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

and:

016.101

PICKTHAL: And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.



so you say God cant change his mind? how come the first punishment for Zina was to sent a woman to her house untill she dies, which was later abrogated and the punishment was hereafter whippings..

are u still saying God cant change his mind according to Islam??

how come the Gospels talk about Eye for An Eye, and the Quran clearly backs this up, but then says that it is beter not to take revenge??

i have said again and again brother, that Guru Nanak was NOT a nabi or a rasool. he was a Guru...a Man to put righteusness into this world. the Gurus never tried to convert anyone..instead, they tried to make people righteus, and follow their own religions...The Guru Granth Sahab even tells muslim to do their 5 prayers...

[amardeep]

God has changed his mind according to the Quran many times. Allah sent the lav of Musa down, but why did'n Muhammad follow these laws?.. they were changed in the days of Muhammad..

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

so God cant change his mind? i see..what about when the Quran says that verses are being abrogated??

Abrogation is not changing one's mind - this baseless claim has been refuted here:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttal...e_Word_of_God/

The Professor told his class at the beginning of the course, "I've written down what we will do during this course. I've planned it carefully, and written down everything we will do, word for word. No one can change my words." Then, during the second week when the Professor changes the ruling from 30 minutes of homework to 1 hour, a student complains and says, "But sir, you've changed your words!" The Professor responds by saying, "No, I haven't changed my words, I had planned this right from the beginning." Evidently, he is referring to his plan as his words.

Allah sent the lav of Musa down, but why did'n Muhammad follow these laws?.. they were changed in the days of Muhammad..

Show me where Allah swt said that the laws of Musa were also for Muhammad saws and then changed His mind? He never did. The laws of Musa as were intended for his nation and the laws of Muhammad saws were intended for his nation. God intended from the very beginning that Musa as would have a specific set of laws suitable for his people and that Muhammad saws would have a specific set of laws intended for his people. The beliefs, creed and fundamentals of all the prophets is the same.

look at this hadith.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...t.html#006.061.

it says that Muhammad forgot a verse from the Quran. how can a universel and the seal of prophets forget a verse from the Quran????

He didn't 'forget' anything in the sense that he was unable remember it or failed to act upon it. The hadith says he heard a man reciting these verses and was thus reminded of verses he had not contemplated upon recently.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen....html#003.0671

How can a prophet of God go naked in public? isent he suppose to be a holy person and have chastity.

First, this was before he became a Prophet, before there was legislation on clothing requirements. Secondly, as is obvious from the text of the narration itself, this happened unintentionally - he fell unconcious! In the hadith itself it says that this was the only time this ever occured (when he lost conciousness) despite the fact that in the jahiliyyah times, arabs used to even perform circumambulation around the Ka'bah naked. This is actually in support of his prophethood because it states that despite local customs the Prophet felt it wrong inside him to be seen undressed and as such he was never seen that way in his entire life even before prophet, except the one instance when he lost conciousness.

lets not forget:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#007.062.006

how he slept with all of his wives.. isent a Prophet of God supposed to be able to control his earthly desires??

What has that to do with controlling one's earthly desires? Does that mean if someone marries they are unable to control their earthly desires? Controlling one's desires means to control them from sin.

here are two hadith saying he forgot his prayers.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#002.022.321

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#001.008.394

He didn't forget his prayers, he missed a rak'ah, and Allah swt caused him to do that so that the ummah would see the correct manner of correcting one's prayer in the case of missing rakaat. None of this contradicts prophethood in the least.

Regards

[amardeep]

Show me where Allah swt said that the laws of Musa were also for Muhammad saws and then changed His mind? He never did. The laws of Musa as were intended for his nation and the laws of Muhammad saws were intended for his nation. God intended from the very beginning that Musa as would have a specific set of laws suitable for his people and that Muhammad saws would have a specific set of laws intended for his people. The beliefs, creed and fundamentals of all the prophets is the same.

thats good. then Islam was ment for the arabs, while Guru Nanak's message which is universal, as he travelled the world, is for the human nation(all of mankind)..

there is no contradiction in Guru Nanak being a "prophet" then if i use your logic, saying Allah had intended it from the very beginning, that Guru Nanak would come to this earth as a messenger..

Guru Nanak is a messenger of God..there is no doubt. in Islam God can change his word from time to time..why not also change his word on"last prophet" ????+

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

thats good. then Islam was ment for the arabs

I'm afraid not. I said the laws of Muhammad pbuh were intended for his people - 'his people' includes everyone after his time, not those before his time. The laws of Prophet Muhammad pbuh were not intended for the people who lived with Moses, Lot, Jesus, etc. They are intended for everyone in the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh and after him; the previous Prophet's were sent only to a specific nation, but Prophet Muhammad saws has been sent to all mankind during his time or after him.

Secondly, we're not discussing Islam because Islam is the religion of all creation; we're discussing the different Shari'ahs [legislations] of the different Prophets.

God can change his word from time to time..why not also change his word on"last prophet" ????+

It should be obvious that this is two different concepts. Take the professor example again.
If the professor says "After today, I will never give you anymore homework", then the next day if he assigns homework the students will call him a liar.
That is very different from the example I gave where the Professor initially assigns 30 mins of homework and later changes it to 1 hour of homework, later on in the course. The difference being that in the first example, the professor is contradicting his earlier statement by assigning homework after having said he never would, while in the second example he is not contradicting himself at all because he never said that the students would only have 30 mins of homework throughout the entire course.

Regards

[AvarAllahNoor]

thats good. then Islam was ment for the arabs, while Guru Nanak's message which is universal, as he travelled the world, is for the human nation(all of mankind)..

there is no contradiction in Guru Nanak being a "prophet" then if i use your logic, saying Allah had intended it from the very beginning, that Guru Nanak would come to this earth as a messenger..

Guru Nanak is a messenger of God..there is no doubt. in Islam God can change his word from time to time..why not also change his word on "last prophet" ????+

Guru Ji's arrival was prophized (sp)


In the Hindu epic the RIG VEDA

(i) In Mandala 7, Ush 5, Mantra 5 and Chapter 6


"Bee chakram prithoi aishai ta khestraaeh Vishnu mansai das sayaan throvaah so asaya keeryo janaas oeroo khashatra so janama chakaar (8)"
meaning


"when in the world the sinful ways will be on the rise and noble behavior will vanish, as the disappearance of the moon when on its wane on the darkest night, there will appear Vishnu as a prominent Prophet from the Keshatra Clan and will manifest in consecutive form through 10 Prophets to bring back the ways of virtue to the ailing world."
(ii) In the same Vedas, in another part even in the name NANAK and the clan he belongs to is recorded thus


"Sri Nanak gureng vareng saklaath heythoo. Heitha samasth jagathaa va veithee kaetheng"
meaning


"For the preaching of religious ways and the earning of good karma, there will manifest Guru NANAK from the clan of the Veithees"
(iii) At another position in the same Vedas is entered under Mandala 1 Soothak 5 and in the 7th Mantra thus -


"Eeth eethei Vishnu reinn chakramei threihaa nathathei patham"
meaning


"The Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three attributes. As an Avtar propounding Truth, as a Householder establishing family life and at the same time be a Raja Yogi"


2. The YUJAR VEDA

As in the RIG VEDA quoted above, in the YUJAR VEDA also the Prophet in the Kali Yuga will manifest three main characteristics thus -


"Vishnu bee chakrageih treithaa neikthei patham samudhseiaa paaeh serei swahaa"
meaning


"Vishnu will appear again, manifesting three main characteristics, Avtarhood, Householder family life and be a Rajah Yogi as well"
Although in the above two quotations the name of Nanak does not directly appear, reference to being a householder family man, would point to him because he was among the first few Avtars (prophets) who was married and begetting children.

Incidentally in Hindu mythology, VISHNU is the primordial Godhead Prophet, who incarnates on Earth taking many differing forms and the ensuing names thereto.



3. In the BHAVEKHATH PURANA

"Baavekhath" means "future foretelling". There are numerous places in this famous Hindu epic where the advant of Guru NANAK is directly alluded to. These instances are listed hereunder -

(i)

"Theraa bhaareng thereshtwah keli krethem maha krethyaa. Aeveng vaee tharam parchaariang bhavekhthee thaa kalau. Thatha vei loka rakheiaartheng maleishana naas heithwei paschmeitlheng subh theisay vath wensei chei Nanaka naam nach rekhiang brahem geaanaik manas bhavekhet kaloe skunth thatar verth kaleaah har (35)."
meaning


"In the Kali Yuga when goodness in the world is deteriorating there will appear a Prophet from the Beithi clan named NANAK who from birth will be endowed with extra-ordinary spiritual power. He will preach on the nobility of life and the eradication of the sinful ways"

[amardeep]

i see where you are going, and i understand your point of view but yet i see nothing contradicionaty between "wa khattam al nabeen" and Guru Nanak Maharaj being a messenger(not rasool or nabi) of God.

[jss]

I think everyone needs to remember the difference between SatGuru and any prophets that have arrived on this sansaar. Only the True (sat) Guru can give mukhti from the cycle of reincarnation. This no prophet can do.

[starfortress]

I find it sad and disappointing for you to make the staememts as above. Islam was not spread by the sword. Okay in india the mioghuls were corrupt rulers, but in places like Malaysia indonesia and the rest of arabia it was free will and choice. Ask yourself logically, today, look at the masses of epople converting to Islam everyday, where is the sword today? If it isn't needed today where everyone is more forward than they were 1400 years ago, then surely it wasn't needed before

yeah, agreed by that bro,no war has happent or recorded during the Islamization process to the Malay Archipelago population,though they are plenty of tribe were settled there.The war only happen,when the portugese and spain came to occupied the land and force the local to convert to Christian.

peace

[amardeep]

starfortress:

u gotta be kiddin me right?

Syria, Egypt, Iran, Afghanistan, Yemen, Turkey, Spain, France, India, Pakistan, Irak, Tunesia, Somalia etc. all of these countries were invaded and conquered by arab rulers, hereby converting the entire nation to Islam.

look at the arabs history and see one country after the other being invaded be the arabs..wah wah Rasool ka kya sunnaht hai...

[jss]

yeah, agreed by that bro,no war has happent or recorded during the Islamization process to the Malay Archipelago population,though they are plenty of tribe were settled there.The war only happen,when the portugese and spain came to occupied the land and force the local to convert to Christian.

peace

Why is everyone still going over these issues like a broken record. All the answers to Sikhi were provided by Sikh brothers and sisters on this thread and others. Moreover viable links were provided so Muslim brothers and sisters could further find the answers to their questions. But still the same questions are being asked over and over again along with the same issues.
One benti (request) is that everyone reads over past comments on this and similar topics and access links rather than referring to Dr Z. Naik'S limited and distorted understanding.

In reference to the above quote, this was again debated before and mass forced conversions did happen (in other parts of the world- ie Indian subcontinent). With a bit of research you can discover this yourself.

I'm outta here :thankyou:

bhul chuk maaf

[AvarAllahNoor]

Bismillah of the Quran and the Mul Mantra of the Guru Granth Sahib are both dedicated to One Merciful God and are placed at the beginning of every new chapter. In both the nature of God transcends all concepts of time.

Ek Ong Kar - One, Creator

Sat Nam -Truth, Name

Kartaa Purka - Doer of Everything

Nirbahao - Fearless

Nirvair - Revengeless

Akaal Moorat - Undying

Ajoonee - Unborn

Saibhang - Self-Illumined

Gur Prasad - Guru’s Grace

Jap! - Repeat

Aad Sach - In the beginning: Truth

Jugaad Sach -Throughout the ages: Truth

Hai Bhee Sach - Even now: Truth


"God is one. His name is True. He is the Creator. His is without fear. He is inimical to none. His existence is unlimited by time. He is beyond the cycles of birth and death, self existent and can be realized through the grace of the Guru." (Guru Nanak)

Emphasis on the Will of God in Quran is similar to the idea of Hukam in Guru Granth Sahib.

"Everyone is under the Hukam of the Lord; there is none outside it." (Guru Nanak, Japji)

Theory of creation of the world by the mere will of God.

"The night and day, the Lord created, for the world to do the deeds. Through the Guru's instruction, the mind is illuminated and the darkness is dispelled. In His will, He creates all and pervades all the woods and grass blades." (Guru Amar Das, pg. 948)

Encouragement of alms for the needy and poor

Condemnation of idol worship.

Condemnation of asceticism.

Concept of Holy War, but in Sikhism it is only limited to fighting injustice.


Differences

Sikhism does not believe that any Holy Book takes precedence over all others or any religions prophet is the final messenger of God.
"Say not that the Vedas and Muslim books are false. False is he, who reflects not on them." (Bhagat Kabir, Parbhati, pg. 1350)

"The followers of the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran, standing at Your Door, meditate on You. Uncounted are those who fall at Your Door." (Guru Arjan Dev, pg. 518)

"And many have been orthodox amongst the Muslims, and men of miracles, and Ashvini Kumaras, and the part-incarnations of Vishnu, all O all went the way of death. And many were the prophets and spiritual guides, yea, countless were they: they sprang from the dust and to dust they returned." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustati)


Purpose of the Holy Book

"Thus We have revealed the Koran in the Arabic tongue and proclaimed in it warnings and threats so that they may take heed and guard themselves against evil." (20:114 Quran)

"Upon this Plate, three things have been placed: Truth, Contentment and Contemplation. The Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam, the Name of our Lord and Master, has been placed upon it as well; it is the Support of all. One who eats it and enjoys it shall be saved. This thing can never be forsaken; keep this always and forever in your mind. The dark world-ocean is crossed over, by grasping the Feet of the Lord; O Nanak, it is all the extension of God." (Guru Arjan Dev, Mundavanee, pg. 1429)

Sikhism believes that people of different religions are equally capable of achieving salvation while still following their own religion.

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers." (5:49, Quran)

"Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (48:29, Quran)

"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and pay the alms-tax, let them go their way. Allah is forgiving and merciful." (9:4, Quran)

"There is a garden, in which so many plants have grown. They bear the Ambrosial Nectar of the Naam as their fruit. Consider this, O wise one, by which you may attain the state of Nirvaanaa. All around this garden are pools of poison, but within it is the Ambrosial Nectar, O Siblings of Destiny. There is only one gardener who tends it. He takes care of every leaf and branch. He brings all sorts of plants and plants them there. They all bear fruit - none is without fruit." (Guru Arjan Dev, Asa, pg. 385)

"The temple or the mosque are the same, the Hindu worship or the Musalman prayer are the same; all men are the same; it is through error they appear different. Deities, demons, Yakshas, heavenly singers, Musalmans and Hindus adopt the customary dress of their different countries. All men have the same eyes, the same ears, the same body, the same build, a compound of earth, air, fire, and water. Allah and Abhekh are the same, the Purans and the Quran are the same; they are all alike; it is the one God who created all. The Hindu God and the Muhammadan God are the same; let no man even by mistake suppose there is a difference." (Guru Gobind Singh, Akal Ustat, pg. 275)

Sri Guru Granth Sahib places greater emphasis on love of God as the main motivation for man rather than fear of God.

"Truly, none will take heed but the wise: those who keep faith with Allah and do not break their pledge; who join together what He has bidden to be united; who fear their Lord and dread the terrors of Judgement-day; who for the sake of Allah endure with fortitude..." (13:18, Quran)

"Allah's reward is great. Therefore fear Him with all your hearts and be attentive, obedient, and charitable. That will be best for you." (64:13, Quran)

"Within my heart, I sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and celebrate the Word of the Lord's Shabad. The Lord Himself is pervading and permeating the world; so fall in love with Him!" (Guru Nanak Dev, pg. 790)

"Remembering Him in meditation, one abides in peace; one becomes happy, and suffering is ended. Celebrate, make merry, and sing God's Glories. Forever and ever, surrender to the True Guru." (Guru Arjan Dev, Asa, pg. 386)

Sikhism does not believe in the idea of Gods name being only those authorized in a religious tradition or Holy Book.

"Many are Thy Names and infinite Thine forms and it cannot be told how many merits Thou hast." (Guru Nanak, Asa, pg. 358)

Non-Sikhs are allowed to visit and enter the most sacred shrine of the religion, The Golden Temple.

"Believers, know that the idolaters are unclean. Let them not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year is ended" (9:26, Quran)

"Blessed is the place, and blessed are those who dwell there, where God's Name is meditated upon. The sermons and songs of God's praises are sung there and there is nothing but peace, poise and tranquillity." (Guru Arjan Dev, Raga Bilaval, pg. 816)

"If the Lord Allah lives only in the mosque, then to whom does the rest of the world belong? …The God of the Hindus lives in the southern lands, and the God of the Muslims lives in the west. So search in your heart - look deep into your heart of hearts; this is the home and the place where God lives." (Bhagat Kabir, pg. 1349)

Attitude towards women. Sikh women are allowed to lead congregations of men at the temple or administer all religious ceremonies involving either men or women.

"Man have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them." (4:34, Quran)

"We are born of woman, we are conceived in the womb of woman, we are engaged and married to woman. We make friendship with woman and the lineage continued because of woman. When one woman dies, we take another one, we are bound with the world through woman. Why should we talk ill of her, who gives birth to kings? The woman is born from woman; there is none without her. Only the One True Lord is without woman" (Guru Nanak Dev, Var Asa, pg. 473)

Sikhism does not believe in fasting or pilgrimages.

"The mind is not softened by fasting or austerities. Nothing else is equal to worship of the Lord's Name." (Guru Nanak Dev, Ramkali, pg. 905)

"The pilgrimage to shrines, fasting, cleanliness and self-mortification are not of any avail, nor are the rituals, religious ceremonies and hollow adoration's. Deliverance, O! Nanak! is in the devotional service of God. Through duality the mortal is engrossed in worldliness. (Guru Nanak, Sri Rag, pg. 75)

Sikhism rejects the killing of any animal.

"Yet holding the knife, the world they butcher. Wearing blue the rulers approval they seek; With money derived from mlechhas the Puranas they worship. Goats slaughtered over the unapproved Muslims texts they eat." (Guru Nanak, Raga Asa, pg. 472)


Sikhism rejects the idea of circumcision.

"Because of the love of woman, circumcision is done; I don't believe in it, O Siblings of Destiny. If God wished me to be a Muslim, it would be cut off by itself. If circumcision makes one a Muslim, then what about a woman?" (Bhagat Kabir, Asa, pg. 477)

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Another question about your holy book: must there be music played in conjunction with the reading of the book, or can one read it without any other accompaniment?

Peace.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Greetings,

Another question about your holy book: must there be music played in conjunction with the reading of the book, or can one read it without any other accompaniment?

Peace.

When the SGGS is read, no insturment is played it is read like you would do the Kuran/Bible. Although if you want to sing the verses that is your choice. That then would be classed as Kirtan!

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Thanks for the reply. Can I request then, that if you are still planning on providing more links to the SGGS being read, to please try to find some that do not contain music?

Thank you :).

[AvarAllahNoor]

Greetings,

Thanks for the reply. Can I request then, that if you are still planning on providing more links to the SGGS being read, to please try to find some that do not contain music?

Thank you :).

Sure :)

This first one is the Jaapji Sahib

English Translation.

http://www.sikhs.org/english/eg1.htm

http://www.ektaone.com/audio/Collect...Ji%20Sahib.mp3

http://www.ektaone.com/audio/index.p...i+Thakur+Singh

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

It's a pity that some Sikhs cannot expound their beliefs without misquoting the Qur'an or slandering Islam.

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrongdoers." (5:49, Quran)

Answered:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Misquoted/#19

"Mohammed is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another." (48:29, Quran)

Answered:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Misquoted/#15

"When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and pay the alms-tax, let them go their way. Allah is forgiving and merciful." (9:4, Quran)

Answered:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/rebuttals/Misquoted/#9

"Man have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because Allah has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them." (4:34, Quran)

Answered:
http://www.load-islam.com/C/Women/TafsirAyah34

Why not quote the teachings of Islam properly, and not out of context?

25:63. And the true servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk the earth with humility and when the ignorant address them, they respond with words of peace.

16:125 Call unto the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching and reason with them in the best manner. Verily your Lord knows best who has strayed from His path and and best knows He as to who are the rightly-guided.

3:159 And it was by God's mercy that you [O Prophet] dealt gently with them. And had you been harsh and hard of heart they would have disbanded from around you. So pardon them, then, and pray that they be forgiven. And take counsel with them in all matters of public concern; then, when you have decided upon a course of action, trust in God: for, verily, God loves those who place their trust in Him.

41:34 The good deed and the evil deed cannot be not equal. Return an evil deed with one that is good. Then he between whom and thyself was mutual enmity shall become as though he were an intimate friend.

3:133-134. And hasten to forgiveness from your Lord and a garden as wide as the heavens and earth, prepared for the righteous, who spend [in the cause of Allah ] during ease and hardship and who restrain anger and who pardon all people - and Allah loves the doers of good.

See also the pages of prophetic teachings on good character and women I have listed on my personal page:
http://www.islamicboard.com/userpage-user49.html

[AvarAllahNoor]

It's a pity that some Sikhs cannot expound their beliefs without misquoting the Qur'an or slandering Islam.

Brother i have little knowledge of the Kuran, so forgive me, but these link are googled and i link up the results. But thankyou for correcting me! :)

[amardeep]

do you, my brothers and sisters, have any more questions?

[Mohsin]

<<<You guys claim to accept Prophet Muhammed PBUH, am i right? You also accept Qur'an as a divine revelation, am i right? We are saying if you believe Prophet Muhammed PBUH how can you believe Guru Nanek who preached something completely different???
>>>

no where SGGS says that Muhammed was the LAST prophet.

so for me, considering he was a holy and divine man, still considering him the last prophet is not acceptable.

No where SGGS says that Quran was given to Muhammed from God. Can you provide reference to same ?


I am not sure brother how you came to those above conclusions.

Sikhism is a religion on its own.

It disapproves neither of the religions, hinduism, islam, christianity........ it disapproves false rituals and promotes harmonious, simple living while remembering One God.

Brother firstly can you use the quote tool, it makes it far easier to read, see this post here http://www.islamicboard.com/306399-post17.html. thankyou very much

Okay you say nowhere in SGGS does it say that, but that is not what we are saying. Do you or do you not deny that it says in the SGGS that the Qur'an is not false, ie it is a divine scripture and the word of God. Well in the Qur'an it says Muham,med PBUH is the last messenger, so since Qur'an is not false, and it is the word of God, which SGGS accepts, therefore anything contained within the Qur'an is also true, and it says time and time again Muhammed PBUH is the last messenger sent for thw whole of mankind. See my previous posts where it says this, and i'll add some more here now aswell insha'allah courtesy of Br. Muhammed the Super mod!

5:67 O Messenger. proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.

6:92 And this is a Book which We have sent down, bringing blessings, and confirming (the revelations) which came before it: that thou mayest warn the mother of cities and all around her. Those who believe in the Hereafter believe in this (Book), and they are constant in guarding their prayers.

42:7 Thus have We sent by inspiration to thee an Arabic Qur'an: that thou mayest warn the Mother of Cities and all around her,- and warn (them) of the Day of Assembly, of which there is no doubt: (when) some will be in the Garden, and some in the Blazing Fire.

[Mohsin]

Before the coming of the Gurus, India was filled with discrimination due to a very strong belief in the caste system. Most people believed in making pilgrimages, black magic and other such superstitions. Essentially people had forgotten God. God sent the Sikh Gurus in this world in order to enlighten people and showed them the path to salvation and eternal bliss.

Ok a couple of problems here brother. Number one you say you respect all religions but then right here you say

Most people believed in making pilgrimages, black magic and other such superstitions. Essentially people had forgotten God

islams 5th pillar is Hajj, a religious pilgrimage, it is very sacred to us, and muslims always continuously try and make pilgrimage to it, so calling it superstitious is uncalled for if that is what you are referring to. If you are referring to hajj being a superstition, i find it hard to believe Sikhism respects all faiths. If you are not referring to ghajj please clarify your statement, remember Guru nanek also performed Hajj.

Sikhs are told to respect all the other scriptures but we believe in none of them

Okay now i'm confused, i thought it says in the SGGS Don't call the qur'an false??

Hence Guru Gobind Singh Ji completed the purpose for which he and the nine Gurus before Him were sent: by creating the Sikh religion. God’s purpose of enlightening people was started by sending Guru Nanak Dev Ji in this world, carried on by sending the next eight Gurus and completed by sending Guru Gobind Singh Ji. Hence Sikhism is a religion created by God through the Sikh Gurus.

What about before Guru Nanek? Humanity has lived for thousands of years before Nanak. Some have been so misguided that surely they would have needed guidance before. of course as muslims we believe God sent other messengers to other nations when they transgressed, but as you said in your post you don't believe in the other religions, so why did God decide to let people go astray for hundreds of thousands of years and all of a sudden send 10 gurus to India of all places?

[Mohsin]

do you, my brothers and sisters, have any more questions?

brother i have loads, and yet so far none have been answered.

See my two posts above.

i also want to ask you although you don't claim nanak to be a Nabi or a rasool, you claim him to be someone who God has spoken to or sent revelation to or elevated him with contact from god. All these things would mean another messenegr whether you like it or not, and Muhammed SAW clearly said this will not happen.

Now do you or do you not believe in the prophet Muhammed PBUH and the other prophets PBUT. Now please brothers don't play around with your answer by saying we respect the other prophets bhut don't believe in them. this would clearly mean you think they are all false and all liars, since they all said god created us for the sole purpose of worshipping him and this whole life is a test for the hereafter, where everyone enters either heaven or hell, which completely contradicts sikh teachings

Now what does it mean when it says Don't say the Qur'an is false. Surely that implies it is true in what it says, in which it says it is the word of god, Muhammed PBUH is the last messenger, we are allowed to eat halal meat, we have to do hajj, we have to pray towards ka'bah, and we will have a day of judgement after which we enter Heaven or hell, which all contradict Sikh teachings. so can you please explain the meaning of this verse to me

What about the people before the Gurus, if you don't believe in the previous messengers and other religions why did god allow the rest of his creation to be misguided for thousands of years and then finally send the gurus to india?

[AvarAllahNoor]

Ok a couple of problems here brother. Number one you say you respect all religions but then right here you say


islams 5th pillar is Hajj, a religious pilgrimage, it is very sacred to us, and muslims always continuously try and make pilgrimage to it, so calling it superstitious is uncalled for if that is what you are referring to. If you are referring to hajj being a superstition, i find it hard to believe Sikhism respects all faiths. If you are not referring to ghajj please clarify your statement, remember Guru nanek also performed Hajj

I'm talking about Hinduism/Islam in general perhaps i should have not mixed the superstiton etc - But it was appropriate as they main reason for Sikhi was that these two beliefs were in turmoil!

[AvarAllahNoor]

Okay now i'm confused, i thought it says in the SGGS Don't call the qur'an false??

You don't have to believe in something in order to respect it correct? It can be done by aknowledging it! :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

What about before Guru Nanek? Humanity has lived for thousands of years before Nanak. Some have been so misguided that surely they would have needed guidance before. of course as muslims we believe God sent other messengers to other nations when they transgressed, but as you said in your post you don't believe in the other religions, so why did God decide to let people go astray for hundreds of thousands of years and all of a sudden send 10 gurus to India of all places?

How many years afer Judaism did islam come into being?

How many years after christianity did islam come into being?

Your question is pointless it means nothing brother! [B]

God does as he feels.


jo tis bhaavai so-ee karsee fir hukam na karnaa jaa-ee.

He does whatever He pleases. No one can issue any order to Him(Guru Granth Ji)

This is all you need to know on this! Unless you believe Allah is incapable of creating anything other than islam? :)

[AvarAllahNoor]

brother i have loads, and yet so far none have been answered.

See my two posts above.

i also want to ask you although you don't claim nanak to be a Nabi or a rasool, you claim him to be someone who God has spoken to or sent revelation to or elevated him with contact from god. All these things would mean another messenegr whether you like it or not, and Muhammed SAW clearly said this will not happen.

Now do you or do you not believe in the prophet Muhammed PBUH and the other prophets PBUT. Now please brothers don't play around with your answer by saying we respect the other prophets bhut don't believe in them. this would clearly mean you think they are all false and all liars, since they all said god created us for the sole purpose of worshipping him and this whole life is a test for the hereafter, where everyone enters either heaven or hell, which completely contradicts sikh teachings

Now what does it mean when it says Don't say the Qur'an is false. Surely that implies it is true in what it says, in which it says it is the word of god, Muhammed PBUH is the last messenger, we are allowed to eat halal meat, we have to do hajj, we have to pray towards ka'bah, and we will have a day of judgement after which we enter Heaven or hell, which all contradict Sikh teachings. so can you please explain the meaning of this verse to me

What about the people before the Gurus, if you don't believe in the previous messengers and other religions why did god allow the rest of his creation to be misguided for thousands of years and then finally send the gurus to india?

A Sikh does not exclude or condemn any religion. He does not believe that only he deserves heaven and all others are going to burn in hell, etc. We are all children of the same God. A Sikh respects everyone's religious sentiment and freedom to choose their own way to Truth. He believes that all religions originally lead to the same truth if we simply understood and followed the real teaching correctly.

The Sikh scripture, Guru Granth Sahib, contains authentic Gurbani from Saints of diverse religious origins. The Gurus also rejected many writings alleged to be of the same Saints because they did not meet the criteria to be worshipped as Gurbani. They included all Gurbani they could find, regardless of its cultural or religious origin. Though the Sikhs are the custodians of Gurbani, the Gurus addressed it to people of all faiths. Unlike some religious writings, Gurbani is not a history or prediction, related to some nation, etc. It is God's truth written in verse. It is for everyone. God put you in your religion for a special purpose. You do not need to convert in order to enjoy, understand, and take advantage of the Sikh Gurus' teachings. For example, anyone can learn to be always mentally aware of a unity (God) being present inside everyone.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Moshin

Does the Kuran not say?

Allah said:

"And certainly I've sent messengers before you: there are some of them that i have mentioned to you and there are others whom i have not mentioned to you..." [40:78]

Does the Ahadeeth not mention many more in number? More than 25 in the Kuran!


Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh
The pure ones (Khalsa) belong to God, Victory to God

[Idris]

How many years afer Judaism did islam come into being?

How many years after christianity did islam come into being?

Your question is pointless it means nothing brother! [B]

God does as he feels.


jo tis bhaavai so-ee karsee fir hukam na karnaa jaa-ee.

He does whatever He pleases. No one can issue any order to Him(Guru
Granth Ji)

This is all you need to know on this! Unless you believe Allah is incapable of creating anything other than islam? :)

Can god make another God?
Can god kick you out of his kingdom?

It’s Illogical to say god can do as he likes.
No in Islam we believe that god even has his limits to doing godly things

[AvarAllahNoor]

Can god make another God?
Can god kick you out of his kingdom?

It’s Illogical to say god can do as he likes.
No in Islam we believe that god even has his limits to doing godly things

Who is this other God? He does as he likes. Carry on being ignorant brother! :)

GOD HAS LIMITS?? lol that shows you think God does not possess the power to do as he likes, should he consult you or me when deciding on what should be done! :rollseyes

[Abdul Fattah]

The notion of an omnipotent God doesn't have natural limits, but as a result of choice even an omnipotent waves some of his abilitys. If God says he is the most just, then he waves his ability to be the most unjust. It's not because omnipotence is flawed, it's a natural result from a decision not to have an ability.

[AvarAllahNoor]

The notion of an omnipotent God doesn't have natural limits, but as a result of choice even an omnipotent waves some of his abilitys. If God says he is the most just, then he waves his ability to be the most unjust. It's not because omnipotence is flawed, it's a natural result from a decision not to have an ability.

kudrat kavan kahaa veechaar.

What power have I to describe Thine doctrines (Thee)?

jayvad aap jaanai aap aap.

How great He is, only He Himself knows.

hor aakh naa sakai ko-i.

No one else has any say in it. (SGGS)


jay ko aakhai boluvigaarh.

If some prater says that he can describe God


taa likhee-ai sir gaavaaraa gaavaar. ||26||

then write him down as the most foolish of the foolish.

[AvarAllahNoor]

Here's a little more information. :)

Karni Nama


While Guru Nanak was in Mecca and Medina, Qazi Rukan Din asked, ?True King, tell us your prophecy again. Tell us how you will unfold the future?.
Your name is Nanak Nirankari and you are from the Nation of the Lord. What are the instructions for the future?

Nanak replied Rukan Din, listen to the true answer
Whosoever reads or listens to this shall be content. All doubts shall be removed.

In the tenth dress shall reside The Lord.

I shall fight many battles against Emperor Aurangzeb.

I shall then send a letter of victory (Zafarnamah) to Aurangzeb with my Singh (Bhai Daya Singh).

Upon seeing him, Power shall lessen and he shall forget his devious ways.

Emperor Aurangzeb will be overwhelmed by the sight of Daya Singh and will start to tremble.

The Khalsa been resurrected! Good has not been done by Gobind Singh?

I shall leave having given a kingdom; My name being Gobind

There will be a time when the Khalsa shall forget the teachings I have given them. Sikhi will only be left in name. Many Wars shall occur.

I will have to return again to resurrect the Khalsa. They shall reside in the Punjab.

I shall make people from all four corners into one.

They will be in Majjha; They will raid Lahore.

They will bring Potohaar to justice; They will take Peshawar.

They will set up a cantonment at Attock and then open the Khyber Pass.

They will establish a kingdom in Kabul and then take Ghazni.

After bringing Hazaara to justice they will march on to Kandahar.

After taking Balack and Buckaara, they will conquer Sindh and Baloch.

After gaining victory over these lands they shall govern all the people.

Mecca, Medina and Rome shall tremble.

They shall gain victory in battle over south and west India.

The Guru's Army shall sit at the throne of Delhi.

Umbrellas of kingship shall sway over their heads. All shall be content.

From East to West all shall be conquered. None shall challenge the Khalsa. All humanity shall become one.

In the kingdom of the True King, Satjug shall be established.

The Khalsa Panth shall rule. The arrows of death shall not touch them.

The Army of the Timeless shall grow and spread like locusts.

All shall wear vestments of blue; no one else shall be seen.

Listen Qazi Rukan Din, The Singhs shall rule.

The Unholy Sheikhs shall be destroyed. Pirs and Mureeds shall be no more.

All shall recite the one name of the Lord. Then he shall come himself.

The untrue shall not be able to see his glory.

All humanity shall unite and he will distribute provinces.

The Earth shall give food and the mountains shall give diamonds.

Fruits of many kinds there shall be, upon the sight of the timeless.

All shall recite VAHEGURU and achieve salvation.

Many Dharamsalas (places of discussion) shall exist.
The Lord shall manifest himself in body (as man).

He will make all utter VAHEGURU. All Singhs shall flock under his banner.

All shall know him as the True One. He will sit at the throne of Delhi.

He will establish a kingdom of peace and no enemies will remain.

Wherever the Khalsa turns his eye, the 14 realms shall tremble.

For 14,000 years, this kingdom shall remain.

Wealth will be collected and food shall be distributed.

The naked and the starving shall all receive; no one will go without.

Sayeth Nanak, Rukan Din, This is how it shall be.

Whosoever reads the Karni Namah, his love with The Lord shall grow.

The Word of the Timeless shall prevail. Those uttering falsehood shall not remain.

After the effect of The Akaal, forests, mountains and the world shall see salvation.

The Khalsa shall Rule. There will be no-one left to oppose them.

All who are lost shall gain the safety of the Khalsa

Raj Nama


Spoken by the First Master

First, Nanak went to Mecca;

Medina he afterwards visited.

The lord of Mecca and Medina,

Kaarun, he made his disciple.

When Nanak was about to depart,

Kaarun, the fortunate, thus spoke:

Now thou art about to go,

But when wilt thou return?

Then the Guru thus answered:

When I put on my tenth dress

I shall be called Gobind Singh;

Then shall all Singhs wear their hair;

They shall accept the 'Pahal' of the two-edged Sword

Then shall the Khalsa be established;

Then shall men exclaim 'Vaheguru'

The four races shall become one and the same;

The five weapons shall be worn by all.

In Kalyug they shall array themselves in vestments of blue;

The name of the Khalsa shall be everywhere.

In the time of Aurangzeb

The wondrous Khalsa shall arise.

Then shall battles be waged,

Endless war shall ensue,

And fighting shall follow year after year.

They shall place the name of Gobind Singh in their hearts.

When many heads shall be rendered up,

The Empire of the Khalsa shall prevail.

First, they shall conquer Punjab;

Then other countries shall be theirs;

Hindustan and the North shall be possessed by them;

Then the west shall bow to them.

When they enter Khorasan,

Kabul and Kandahar shall lie low.

When Iran has been laid prostrate,

Arabia shall be conquered and they shall march on to Mecca.

Mecca shall be beheld,

And Medina shall be seized.

Mighty shall be the rejoicing,

And all shall exclaim 'Vaheguru'.

Unbelievers shall everywhere be destroyed;

The holy Khalsa shall be exalted.

Beasts and Birds shall tremble in the presence of the Lord.

Men and Women shall everywhere call on God.

The Earth, the Oceans and the Heavens shall call on God.

By calling on the Guru shall men be blessed.

Every faith shall become of the Khalsa;

No other religion will remain.

'Vaheguru' shall everywhere be repeated,

And pain and trouble shall depart.

In the Kalyug shall the Kingdom be established,

Which Nanak received from the Lord.

Worthless, I fall before God;

Nanak, the slave, cannot comprehend the ways of the Lord.

Thus replied Nanak to Kaarun's question.


http://www.info-sikh.com/LLPage41.html


The Karni Namah and the Raj Namah are two significant chapters of the Sau Sakhi, the Sikh book of prophecy. The Raj Namah appears in, The History Of The Sikhs, by J D Cunningham on p. 340. Cunningham came across this document during the mid 19th century. He states that these “compositions are of course fabulous as regards Nanak, and appear to be the compositions of the commencement or middle of the last century”.

The Karni Namah was told to Qazi Rukan Din, Pir Bahaoud Din, Ghous, Kuthab, Saalaar, Hajji, Sheikh and Mushaikh Aulviya, who sat with Guru Nanak at religious discussions. The Raj Namah was told to Kaarun, the Emperor of Rome, on Guru Nanak’s return from medina.

These prophecies were in the Old Janam Sakhi’s written by Bhai Bala, who accompanied Guru Nanak on his travels. However, the British removed them.

‘Raaj Karega Khalsa Aaki Rahai Na Koe.

Khuaar Hoe Sab Milengai Bachai Sharan Jo Hoe’.

This is said by the Sikhs in their daily Ardas. As it can be seen, the Karni Nama is the only source of these words.

[AvarAllahNoor]

brother i have loads, and yet so far none have been answered.

See my two posts above.

i also want to ask you although you don't claim nanak to be a Nabi or a rasool, you claim him to be someone who God has spoken to or sent revelation to or elevated him with contact from god. All these things would mean another messenegr whether you like it or not, and Muhammed SAW clearly said this will not happen.

The coming of Nanak was prophesised thousands of years before his arrival. These prophecies are explicitly detailed in the Vedas and the Puranas, which are amongst the oldest scriptures on Earth.

Whilst at Mecca and Medina, Guru Nanak unfolded futuristic events in the Karni Nama and the Raj Nama. He clearly states that he will have to return to ressurect the Khalsa.

Prophets of the world have all established their religions. Each religion was a requirement of its age, which the prophet was sent to fulfil. The way of the Khalsa is the requirement in the age of Kaljug. It is the tool necessary to defeat Kaljug and establish the kingdom of Satjug.

Presently, the Khalsa appears to be in a state of dormancy. What is required for the Great Guru to show himself? What conditions are required, i.e., how much more of a decline of humanity is required?

Is this decline necessary? What can we do, as Khalsa, to stop this decline from occurring?

What we are currently doing is OBVIOUSLY not working!

[bint_muhammed]

does sikhs believe in God and what are their main beliefs? i have no clue at all!

[bint_muhammed]

sorry for my question above i've found the answers! and please use english and not other languages as its hard for people to understand!
thankyou!

[AvarAllahNoor]

does sikhs believe in God and what are their main beliefs? i have no clue at all!

This will help you understand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism

[Mohsin]

I'm talking about Hinduism/Islam in general perhaps i should have not mixed the superstiton etc - But it was appropriate as they main reason for Sikhi was that these two beliefs were in turmoil!

Sorry for taking so long to reply

This still doesn't answer the question i posed. The religion was still intact. the scriptures were still there, The Qur'an was still the same as it had been during the prophet PBUH's time, and all of the Prophet PBUH's teachings had been authenticated, so all of Islam's teachings was still there. This is different to before when Allah would send Prophets to people, where the original message had been completely lost. This would have happened by a change in the scriptures over many years by corrupt individuals, such that the meaning of the religion had completely changed from the one God sent down. In such an instance, god sent a new messenger to re-affirm the truth

Now the problem here is Guru Nanek was sent according to you as islam and Hinduism had gone astray. Now, Hindus themselves admit their scriptures is no longer the same as it was, but no muslim has ever said the same about the Qur'an. The message was still there, it was just people were no longer following it. So in such an instance there was no need to send a new law/rules/religion/messenger/guru as the religion (Islam) God had sent previously was still intact, and God had said in the Qur'an it is the last and final message

Now the flaw in your argument is that even after Guru Nanak came, Muslims and Hindus continued to not follow their respective scriptures, there are still many non-practising muslims today. So what did Guru nanak achieve? I can argue today that the Muslim Christian Hindu Sikh Jewish beliefs are all in turmoil, as they all contain many non-practising followers. So does that mean god is going to send another teacher to the earth now?

Please clarify what you mean. Do you or do you not believe the Qur'an is the word of God. please no ambiguity. Do you believe Muhammed PBUH is a messenger or not? Do you believe the Qur'an is 100% the word of God or not?

[Mohsin]

You don't have to believe in something in order to respect it correct? It can be done by aknowledging it! :)

Yes, but it says don't call it false, false is someone who does not contemplate on it. Surely this means if you can't call it false. Ie you can't say its a lie, ie you can't say it is not divine.

What does it mean contemplate on it? If you believe it not to be divine then why bother contemplating on the words of mere men who have committed serious sins by writing claiming it to be the word of God

[Mohsin]

How many years afer Judaism did islam come into being?

This is besides the point. Number one you are probably unaware Moses PBUH was not a jew. Anyway God continually sent messengers to Israel. Each time the followers began to astray, another messenger was sent.

How many years after christianity did islam come into being?

Again irrelevant. But about 600 years after. Again here, many of the teachings had become distorted, and Islam's views are that many pagan beliefs had been introduced into the religion. However there were still many Unitarians around at the time, and also many Christians who were waiting for the last prophet PBUH

Islam has continually sent prophets throughout time. there have been over 124,000 prophets sent to mankind, and each nation has received a Prophet. This is an islamic belief and we have to believe this

God does as he feels

Of course, i have no issue with that! But i believe God is most just and God would not have left people to go astray for thousands of years without guidance. If Sikhism teaches you that God would allow such a thing to happen then so be it

Unless you believe Allah is incapable of creating anything other than islam?

The flaw in this statement is probably due to the fact you don't know what islam is. islam in essenmce means submitting your will to God. So God would only send down a religion per se that would submitt to his will. God would not want people to worship him in man made ways. So God can only send down islam

[Mohsin]

A Sikh does not exclude or condemn any religion

Yet you ahve questioned on many occasions on why we do Hajj, why we pray to the ka'bah, why we allow polygamy, why we apparently oppress the women by not giving them equal status. This is clearly saying islam is wrong

He does not believe that only he deserves heaven and all others are going to burn in hell, etc. We are all children of the same God

We believe islam is the truth, the most true religion as it is unchanged from when god revealed it. But that doesn't mean we believe all other people are doomed for the hell-fire see this thread http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...aven-hell.html

A Sikh respects everyone's religious sentiment and freedom to choose their own way to Truth

So does a Muslim. Everyone is entitled to their own way of thinking. However, that doesn't change the fact there is only One god, and thus only one way to god, as god can't contradict himself and have two different religions with differing beliefs

The Sikh scripture, Guru Granth Sahib, contains authentic Gurbani from Saints of diverse religious origins

Interesting i did not know this. Islam only contains the word of God, not by any man. Especially in this case of men who are of other religions associating lies with god

Unlike some religious writings, Gurbani is not a history or prediction, related to some nation, etc. It is God's truth written in verse

same with the Qur'an, it was sent to the whole of mankind as i've shown you clearly in many verses in the qur'an and in the hadeeth

God put you in your religion for a special purpose. You do not need to convert in order to enjoy, understand, and take advantage of the Sikh Gurus' teachings.

God has only ever had one religion, the religion in submission to him. All other religions are man made. Yes God then put us into different religions, but we have been created to be tested by god in this life. God will test us to see if we follow the true religion. being born as a muslim simply is not enough. there are many non-practising muslims. A muslim has different tests. A muslims has to call others to the way of islam

[Mohsin]

Moshin

Does the Kuran not say?

Allah said:

"And certainly I've sent messengers before you: there are some of them that i have mentioned to you and there are others whom i have not mentioned to you..." [40:78]

Does the Ahadeeth not mention many more in number? More than 25 in the Kuran!


Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh
The pure ones (Khalsa) belong to God, Victory to God

Yes it does. I don't see the relevance. This is different to Sikhism which you admitted to earlier God only sent 10 gurus and nothing to the mankind before it

[Mohsin]

Posted by Mohsin
<Okay you say nowhere in SGGS does it say that, but that is not what we are saying. Do you or do you not deny that it says in the SGGS that the Qur'an is not false, ie it is a divine scripture and the word of God. Well in the Qur'an it says Muham,med PBUH is the last messenger, so since Qur'an is not false, and it is the word of God, which SGGS accepts, therefore anything contained within the Qur'an is also true, and it says time and time again Muhammed PBUH is the last messenger sent for thw whole of mankind. >

Please use the quote tool

Well SGGS say Quran is not false, so by your logic as you assert that Koran is not false hence you also believe that SGGS is also true , as it recognises the truth of Koran..

Nooo. I believe SGGS is written/inspired by men with many contradictions. It comes with a new religion but in some places says all religins are right.
So:
SGGS says Sikhism is the right path. It also says Qur'an is not false. Qur'an says it is the word of God. God says islam is the right path. Therefore according to Sikhism both Sikhism and islam are right, therefore contradiction
hows that? :brother:

[Mohsin]

<<<i also want to ask you although you don't claim nanak to be a Nabi or a rasool, you claim him to be someone who God has spoken to or sent revelation to or elevated him with contact from god. All these things would mean another messenegr whether you like it or not, and Muhammed SAW clearly said this will not happen.>>>

this is based on YOUR belief that Quran and Prophet muhammed knew the complete truth. We donot believe so. peace. So this is a point i think we will have to agree to disagree.
.

Okay so you don't accept him as a Prophet. So what guidance did God send to the rest of creation before the 10 gurus?

this is the difference in sikhism and Islam, SGGS does not call any religion as False and its prophets as LIARS. It is the false and illogical practices which are condemned in sikhism.

Indirectly however you are calling them liars. Prophet Muhammed PBUH clearly said he is a Prophet, and the last guide to mankind. By not following his religion you must believe he was not telling the truth when he said he is a messenger, or he is the last teacher to mankind. So you are calling him a liar.

please stop reading only one line which says "quran is not false"

this is the complete line

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਕਹਹੁ ਮਤ ਝੂਠੇ ਝੂਠਾ ਜੋ ਨ ਬਿਚਾਰੈ ॥
बेद कतेब कहहु मत झूठे झूठा जो न बिचारै ॥
bayd katayb kahhu mat jhoothay jhoothaa jo na bichaarai.
Do not say that the Vedas, the Bible and the Koran are false. Those who do not contemplate them are false.


peace

so if u want to consider SGGS as accepting Koran as the final word, ...you are mistaken.

well explain to me by what it means? Those who do not contemplate them are false. What does thsi line mean. What is there to contemplate on. Sikhs don't believe any of these religions to be divine so why contemplate, or rather what do you contemplate on it???

[AvarAllahNoor]

Okay so you don't accept him as a Prophet. So what guidance did God send to the rest of creation before the 10 gurus?



Indirectly however you are calling them liars. Prophet Muhammed PBUH clearly said he is a Prophet, and the last guide to mankind. By not following his religion you must believe he was not telling the truth when he said he is a messenger, or he is the last teacher to mankind. So you are calling him a liar.



well explain to me by what it means? Those who do not contemplate them are false. What does thsi line mean. What is there to contemplate on. Sikhs don't believe any of these religions to be divine so why contemplate, or rather what do you contemplate on it???

Those that are believers of these faiths, are false if they do not contemplte on it! - Does not apply to a Sikh who believes in nothing but Shabad Guru! The verse is self explanatory!

[AvarAllahNoor]

Okay so you don't accept him as a Prophet. So what guidance did God send to the rest of creation before the 10 gurus?

He sent Moses, Abraham, Jesus Mohammed, Buddha etc etc. Who's questiong that? I'm not!

He's sent thousands of prophets. I couldn't care less if you think the 10 Gurus were prophets or not. They are and were in the eyes of millions, and it's stated in the SGGS!

[AvarAllahNoor]

Nooo. I believe SGGS is written/inspired by men with many contradictions. It comes with a new religion but in some places says all religins are right.
So:

So was the Kuran, it was written by man, through numerous disciples. With different views on certain matters i don't doubt!