If I can't speak it well enough here...

[PRISONERofJOY12]

Imagine that you are standing in front of a judge, guilty of very serious crimes. All the evidence has been presented and there is no doubt about your guilt. The fine for your crime is $250,000 or imprisonment, but you haven't two pennies to rub together. The judge is about to pass sentence...he lifts his gavel, when someone you don't even know steps in and pays the fine for you. The moment you accept that payment, you are free to go. Justice has been served, the law has been satisfied, and what's more, the stranger who paid your fine showed how much he cares for you.

That's what God did for you, in the person of Jesus Christ. You are guilty. He paid the fine 2,000 years ago. It is that simple. The Bible puts it this way: "he was bruised for our iniquities...Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law being made a curse for us...God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Isaiah 53:5, Galatians 3:13, Romans 5:8)

It was no small thing for Jesus to die for us. The only thing that would satisfy the demands of Eternal Law was the suffering death of the sinless Son of God. What love God must have for you! He suffered unspeakable agony, so that you wouldn't have to be punished for your sins. His sacrificial death and resurrection mean that you need no longer be in debt to the Law, and God can now grant you everlasting life if you obey Him -- death no longer has a legal hold upon those who belong to Jesus Christ.

[Abdul Fattah]

Sorry but I find this illogical.

1. I wasn't even born 2000 years ago but I was already sinful?

2. How can someone be born guilty? Wouldn't that indicate that the guilt is of God? That's like a programmer who writes a piece of software. Then the software doesn't do what it's supposed to do; and the programmer says: bad software! You're guilty of not functioning well.

No the truth is we were born with freedom of choice. If we do something wwrong then we are guilty. Being born guilty is a contradiction in terms.

What love God must have for you! He suffered unspeakable agony, so that you wouldn't have to be punished for your sins.

3. A God that suffers by the hand of man. You mean God as in omnipotent? As in creator?

[PRISONERofJOY12]

I see your arguements pointless in some degrees.... by nature we are born to sin.... of course.. so your saying that a mother with aids who has aids can't bring out a child who has aids?
if we never had the desease it means we don't have it... perfect as that.. if we were born without sin it wouldn't be with us the perfect example is JESUS CHRIST.. what did muhammad do besides walk in the middle of a field and said "I FORGIVE YOU" only GOD HIMSELF as the power of that... which JESUS showed to do.... Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." ....
what does MASSIAH mean?

[Abdul Fattah]

I'm not saying anything about aids, but following that anolgy, are you suggesting God is imperfect?

Let me put it this way:
Either you believe sin is a choice.
Or you believe were born to sin.

If it's a choice then we're guilty.
If we are born that way, we do not carry any responsability since it isn't the result of our actions. Then we are just victems to our born sin. We have no hand in it.

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[PRISONERofJOY12]

I'm not saying anything about aids, but following that anolgy, are you suggesting God is imperfect?

Let me put it this way:
Either you believe sin is a choice.
Or you believe were born to sin.

If it's a choice then we're guilty.
If we are born that way, we do not carry any responsability since it isn't the result of our actions. Then we are just victems to our born sin. We have no hand in it.

I FIGURED you would be smart enough to realize that it was more on the first human being side... GOD is perfect which JESUS showed how perfect GOD was... O yeah... God had a plan long before He made His first creation..
yes it is a choice... but if we weren't born with sin then it would be a lot easier to make the right decision...

[Silver Pearl]

Greetings PRISINERofJOY12,

That's what God did for you,

What is the purpose of our creation then if you state that God saved us when created us? and how about those before Jesus (pbuh)? Is hell their only dominance?

in the person of Jesus Christ.

Did Jesus (pbuh) ever say himself that 'I am your lord?'

You are guilty.

How can a child that was born today have possibly sinned?

It is that simple.

Sadly it isn't, many christians themselves don't Understand this concept.

The Bible puts it this way: "he was bruised for our iniquities...Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law being made a curse for us...God commended His love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Isaiah 53:5, Galatians 3:13, Romans 5:8)

Did Jesus (pbuh) ever utter these words himself?

It was no small thing for Jesus to die for us.

Unless he never died for us....

The only thing that would satisfy the demands of Eternal Law was the suffering death of the sinless Son of God.

Once again did Jesus (pbuh) ever call himself "son of God?"

What love God must have for you! He suffered unspeakable agony, so that you wouldn't have to be punished for your sins.

Then why don't we all go around and commit sins and say 'But we are saved?' it is illogical.

His sacrificial death and resurrection mean that you need no longer be in debt to the Law, and God can now grant you everlasting life if you obey Him -- death no longer has a legal hold upon those who belong to Jesus Christ.

Isn't the worst sin in christianity to associate partners with the lord? Knowing that, how can you attribute human as his offspring when he (jesus-pbuh) is merely his creation?

Islam says the following about Jesus son of Mary (pbuh):And (remember) when Allah said: "O jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that jesus is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad, jesus, Moses, etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Torah, the Gospel, the Qur’an] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute." (3:55)


And because of their saying (in sarcastic boast), "We killed Messiah jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of jesus was put over another man, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they did not kill him (4:157)

But Allah raised him [jesus] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he alayhis-salaam is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All Powerful, All Wise. (4:158)

Regards,

Silver Pearl :)

[Abdul Fattah]

I FIGURED you would be smart enough to realize that it was more on the first human being side... GOD is perfect which JESUS showed how perfect GOD was... O yeah... God had a plan long before He made His first creation..
yes it is a choice... but if we weren't born with sin then it would be a lot easier to make the right decision...

So God is perfect, created man in a way that he is born with sin, and cals him guilty from birth? Am I the only one who sees the contradiction in this?

[- Qatada -]

Hey..

Imagine you've been an evil dictator whos been killing thousands of people in your life. Your heartless and you dont care about how they feel, all you care about is yourself and how much money you can waste, and how much enjoyment you can have in your life before your time is up.

You never pay the poor, you never even obey your Lord, what orders does your Lord actually give you? why should you obey your Lord if hes going to save you anyway?

A person rises up and asks for justice, but you pull your gun out and shoot him dead, you dont need people like him - why should someone stop you from your fame? why should the truth come out if it means you losing your riches?

what a fair world we live in.. where the sinners go to heaven, and the good doers wont go paradise if they've never even heard of this saviour?

But wait.. no matter what i do in this life, if i believe in one man - he will let me go heaven? even after all these crimes i've commited? i wont even get judged on what i've done, and the people who i killed mercilessly, wont get rewarded in the afterlife too..


Have you seen him who takes his low desires for his God? Will you then be a protector over him? (25:43)

[PRISONERofJOY12]

So God is perfect, created man in a way that he is born with sin, and cals him guilty from birth? Am I the only one who sees the contradiction in this?

because of sin we are not perfect... if we lived a sinless life then we would virtually be a god of our own.

we are evil to the start of our birth born into sin as a song states...

what would you rather be judged by acts or mercy?

[- Qatada -]

We know we are not perfect and we do commit sins in our life, but why should we have carry the sin of another person?

That no bearer of burden shall bear the burden of another- (53:38)


Yes we do commit sins in this life, and that is why God is prepared to forgive us if we do turn to Him. isn't that fair?


Our Lord! surely we have heard a preacher calling to the faith, saying: Believe in your Lord, so we did believe; Our Lord! forgive us therefore our faults, and cover our evil deeds and make us die with the righteous. (3:193)


You be judged on your acts because that is just, you do good - so you get rewarded with good, you do bad, and if you dont ask for forgiveness - it is upto God if you will get punished for that situation or not. thats perfectily easy to understand by an average mind dont you think?

[Abdul Fattah]

I alrady told you, it's not about what I would prefer. It's not because somethings preferable that it is also true.

Also you're assuming that because we will be judged by our actions that that means there's no room for mercy. Allah will have mercy on whoever it pleases him to have.

But to get back to the main issue. There's a difrence between being imperfect (weak) and being guilty by default.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

Greetings PRISINERofJOY12,




What is the purpose of our creation then if you state that God saved us when created us? and how about those before Jesus (pbuh)? Is hell their only dominance?

the purpose is to show that a GOD would care enough to create me and you... yes?




Did Jesus (pbuh) ever say himself that 'I am your lord?'

LUKE 6:5 the son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath
Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'LORD


How can a child that was born today have possibly sinned?


I really don't understand if we were perfect from birth then why didn't God say take those little childeren and put them on the ark..? I mean they were perfect... blameless of any sin at all.. can't believe that God did not w



Sadly it isn't, many christians themselves don't Understand this concept.
well you have to study to believe it..


Did Jesus (pbuh) ever utter these words himself?



Unless he never died for us....

not a good statement there




Once again did Jesus (pbuh) ever call himself "son of God?"






Then why don't we all go around and commit sins and say 'But we are saved?' it is illogical.




Isn't the worst sin in christianity to associate partners with the lord? Knowing that, how can you attribute human as his offspring when he (jesus-pbuh) is merely his creation?

Islam says the following about Jesus son of Mary (pbuh):And (remember) when Allah said: "O jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you [of the forged statement that jesus is Allah's son] of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you (Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve [in the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad, jesus, Moses, etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Torah, the Gospel, the Qur’an] till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between you in the matters in which you used to dispute." (3:55)


And because of their saying (in sarcastic boast), "We killed Messiah jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of jesus was put over another man, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they did not kill him (4:157)

But Allah raised him [jesus] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself (and he alayhis-salaam is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All Powerful, All Wise. (4:158)

Regards,

Silver Pearl :)

hmm

[Ghazi]

I see your arguements pointless in some degrees.... by nature we are born to sin.... of course.. so your saying that a mother with aids who has aids can't bring out a child who has aids?
if we never had the desease it means we don't have it... perfect as that.. if we were born without sin it wouldn't be with us the perfect example is JESUS CHRIST.. what did muhammad do besides walk in the middle of a field and said "I FORGIVE YOU" only GOD HIMSELF as the power of that... which JESUS showed to do.... Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." ....
what does MASSIAH mean?

:sl:

So tell me what sins a new born could be guilty of.

[PRISONERofJOY12]

I alrady told you, it's not about what I would prefer. It's not because somethings preferable that it is also true.

Also you're assuming that because we will be judged by our actions that that means there's no room for mercy. Allah will have mercy on whoever it pleases him to have.

But to get back to the main issue. There's a difrence between being imperfect (weak) and being guilty by default.

o so basicly you arent promised anything

[Abdul Fattah]

No of course we arent.
This life is a test. If we would already be graded on it, taking the test would be rather futile, right?

[- Qatada -]

o so basicly you arent promised anything

"Say, 'Shall I bring your attention to things far better than those? For the righteous are gardens in nearness to their Lord, with rivers flowing beneath, eternal therein, with pure companions and the good pleasure of Allah. For within Allah's sight are all His servants – especially those who say, "Our Lord, we have indeed believed, so forgive us our sins and protect us from the agony of the Fire." Those who are patient, are truthful, who worship devoutly, who spend in the way of Allah and who prays for forgiveness in the pre-dawn hours.'"
[ali'-Imran, 3: 15-17]



"Allah has promised to believers, men and women, gardens under which rivers flow to dwell therein eternally and good homes in gardens of everlasting bliss. But the pleasure of Allah is greatest. That is the supreme triumph."
[Tawbah, 9: 72]


"Their salutation on the day they meet Him will be 'Peace!; and He has prepared for them a generous reward."
[Ahzab, 33: 44]


"Allah will admit those who believe and work righteous deeds to gardens beneath which rivers flow, they shall be adorned with bracelets of gold and pearls, and their garments therein will be silk. They have been guided in this life to good speech, and they have been guided to the path of Him, the All Praised."
[Hajj, 22: 23-24]


"For them will be gardens of eternity, rivers flowing beneath them. They will be adorned with bracelets of gold, and they will wear green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade, reclining on raised thrones. How good the reward! How beautiful a place of rest!"
[Kahf, 18: 31]


"Upon them will be green garments of fine silk and heavy brocade. They will be adorned with bracelets of silver, and their Lord will give them a pure drink. 'Verily, this is a reward for you, and your endeavor has been appreciated."
[Insan, 76: 21-22



:) thats just some verses from the qur'an regarding paradise..

[PRISONERofJOY12]

Luke 23:3 "Are you the KING of the jews? Yes..

I will give you what the Bible says in just a bit

[Silver Pearl]

Hi,

by nature we are born to sin....

True, none of us are immune to sinning, that is part of being a human, so by saying God became human you also strip him of being perfect, which he is.

of course.. so your saying that a mother with aids who has aids can't bring out a child who has aids?

If a mother who has aids gives birth to a child, the chance of the child having aids is very high, that is a scientifically known fact.

if we never had the desease it means we don't have it...

But one can easily get the disease, so your point doesn’t support much weight.

if we were born without sin it wouldn't be with us the perfect example is JESUS CHRIST..

God is compassionate and merciful and thus every one is born sinless and only when we are able to comprehend and distinguish between right and wrong does our sins get recorded. That is the mercy of Allah (swt). Just because one is not born with sin does not mean they will stay that way forever. It is like comparing a child understanding to a scientist and saying they are equal in knowledge.

what did muhammad do besides walk in the middle of a field and said "I FORGIVE YOU"

The prophet (pbuh) didn't walk saying I forgive you, as Muslim we are supposed to forgive those who have wronged us. Then the merciful lord will forgive you if you ask for his forgiveness. Muhammad (pbuh) was a messenger just like Jesus son of Mary (pbuh). Verily the lord of the heavens and the earth does not lie and he does not send falsehood. It is humans who have spread falsehood of God bearing a son.

only GOD HIMSELF as the power of that... which JESUS showed to do....

But you have said that Jesus (pbuh) is God's son, when God is beyond such thing. "He begets not, nor was He begotten; "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (112:3-4)

Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven." ....

Did it not occur to you that perhaps God had told Jesus, his messenger (pbuh) that he forgave the man? God reveals the unknown to some….


what does MASSIAH mean?[/QUOTE]

Messiah

And verily Jesus son of Mary (pbuh) will return, and he shall demolish the lie which was spread about him. He is but a messenger of our lord, born from a virgin.

You never addressed my last post, "hmmm", doesn't qualify as an answer :)