What would you say to people who may ask a question "Is Islam peaceful religion at all?"
Here is something that I have learned about Islam.
Telling a lie is accebtable in Islam, if it protects person himself, keeps peace among family or ecpecially protects Islam. A muslim can tell a lie to another muslim too and a muslim man can tell a lie to his wife ("A tagiya"). Even Mohammed himself order to lie in Quran.
When Islam meets with defeat, they can make a a peace ("hudna"). If Islam is winning, there is no place for "hudna". You can find these two cases from Quran. It sounds peculiar, isn't it?
When you read Quran (a bundle of orders), it is said clearly: If it is necessary, Islam must be brought to everywhere on earth with outrage. People who defends Islam being a peaceful religion always talks about writings that talk about time of Mecca. In Mecca Mohammed was weak and was gathering others. Mohammed hadn't a chance to take the risk of being violent. He needed a lot of supporters. Who would have supported a violent religion? Well, Islam is not only religion it's also way to rule.
Time of Mecca was peaceful, but when Mohammed became a leader, laws of Medina became above all! If there is possibility for interpretation in Quran, law of Medina is above the other law. Peaceful verses were overruled by laws of Medina. ("mansukh")
Are there any moral laws in Islam at all?
If other than muslim doesn't approve of Islamic rules (Quran), you have to fight against them. There are no place for friends ("auliya") If you take other than muslim for your "auliya", you become also similar.
Muslims have to fight to get Islam in power. If there are muslims who tend to be peaceful and moderate, they have to deny Quran and they become like others (than muslims). Only way to act like this is to leave Islam. Otherwise you need to obey Quran, words of Mohammed (or Allah).
"In west, facade of muslim fundamendalism is religion of peace, because they are waiting more muslim immigrants: increasing number and increasing political strenght. When this happens, be aware!" (Walid Shoevat, former muslim, present christian)
How peaceful is Islam? Are you only being polite for non-muslims and waiting to get enough strenght to start "Holy War"? Or do you think that Islam is one among other religion and everybody can believe in what ever - you don't mind it?
If someone would give an order "start Holy War" now, what would you do? Watching beside and seeing what happens? Taking a part of war helping muslim to win a war or non-muslim to end the war?
It is actually very interesting. Every laws, rules and orders, that Mohammed said on Medina, are very violent and those laws are above others. When Islam was born it was tied into goverment and it is not kept only as religion but it is also being part of community. Some groups in Islam keep jihad as physical jihad, some keep it only as mental jihad - battle inside person itself.
I saw a sad document where only 12yo kid was prepared to be a martyr. The kid was brainwashed totally, he said he remember Quran entirely. When kid asked a question will he get every toys on paradise, father said "Of course, what ever you want!" I only wonder if the kid was even realizing the whole situation.
The whole text above sounds quite negative, but this is often the case, when you talk about Islam with non-muslim. But on the other hand media and politicians are making a picture of peaceful Islam stepping into modern world. This is the correct way to introduce it. But how tolerant and modern is Islam? They are lots of muslims who have left Islam, because they kept it as a violent religion that doesn't fit nowadays world.
I haven't lived among muslims so I have no subjective experiences of Islam. Only knowledge I have learned from several books and so on (including Quran). I haven't study Islam for years like I was studying bible from perspective of Jehovah's witness or studying Christianity from perspective being an christian and so on.
So, I would like to hear what nowadays muslims think about Islam. Of course this will be a view of modern muslim, who is capable of using internet and so on...
What would you Of course this will be a view of modern muslim, who is capable of using internet and so on...
LMAO!
You think Muslims are still riding around the desert on camels wrapped in flowing robes?
Oooohh deary me!
Anyway, i'll just grab my popcorn, Im watching this one from the sides.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
Time of Mecca was peaceful, but when Mohammed became a leader, laws of Medina became above all! If there is possibility for interpretation in Quran, law of Medina is above the other law. Peaceful verses were overruled by laws of Medina. ("mansukh")
LOL
times of mecca were peaceful?
yeah burying daughters etc was really peaceful eh? oh and the flags inviting men to have orgies? very peaceful!
and as for the lying, ever heard of a white-lie? so if someone wants to unjustly torture you i should just give your name away? yeah thats so righteous right *rolls eyes*
*joins barney at the side and steals his popcorn*
-
My tears testify that i have a heart
yet i feel me and shaytan never part
-
LMAO!
You think Muslims are still riding around the desert on camels wrapped in flowing robes?
Oooohh deary me!
Anyway, i'll just grab my popcorn, Im watching this one from the sides.
Well, there are lots of muslim living areas where are not internet connections, no possibilities to use internet and if there are, internet might be prohibited. Of course, every answers will be only from people living modern home/schools/...
Yes, I don't think that people who live in desert are answering on this message
Ehm, you don't see the difference between laws, rules and orders when Mohammed started Islam and when Mohammed were a leader? Take your popcorn and read the history. You should see the grat difference these all laws etc. Im quite sad, you are only making jokes.
I probably need to change a forum another where people take question more seriously. It seems to be, that it's not possible here.
What would you say to people who may ask a question "Is Islam peaceful religion at all?"
Here is something that I have learned about Islam.
Telling a lie is accebtable in Islam, if it protects person himself, keeps peace among family or ecpecially protects Islam. A muslim can tell a lie to another muslim too and a muslim man can tell a lie to his wife ("A tagiya").
Taqiya is a Shi'a concept which isn't a part of mainstream Sunni Islam, and it is prohibited by Allah in the Qur'an and by the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) in the Sunnah.
No, he never. You'll have to bring proof for that.
When Islam meets with defeat, they can make a a peace ("hudna"). If Islam is winning, there is no place for "hudna". You can find these two cases from Quran. It sounds peculiar, isn't it?
Muslims are permitted to make peace treaties with other nations.
When you read Quran (a bundle of orders), it is said clearly: If it is necessary, Islam must be brought to everywhere on earth with outrage.
Please prove that by quoting from the Qur'an, thanks.
People who defends Islam being a peaceful religion always talks about writings that talk about time of Mecca. In Mecca Mohammed was weak and was gathering others. Mohammed hadn't a chance to take the risk of being violent. He needed a lot of supporters. Who would have supported a violent religion? Well, Islam is not only religion it's also way to rule.
He was told by God to remain patient, and when he entered Medinah for safety for him and his followers - the polytheists continued to pursue them to eradicate them from the face of the earth. So permission was given to fight back.
If you feel that innocent people shouldn't have the right to defend themselves, then i think that's unjust of you.
Time of Mecca was peaceful, but when Mohammed became a leader, laws of Medina became above all! If there is possibility for interpretation in Quran, law of Medina is above the other law. Peaceful verses were overruled by laws of Medina. ("mansukh")
Mecca wasn't peaceful, the polytheist pagans tortured, rape and killed many muslims. Yet the muslims remained patient upon their faith until they found a way to practise their religion freely in Medinah. However, like explained before - the polytheists continued to wage war against them.
Are there any moral laws in Islam at all?
to mention just a few:
Equality
The Prophet said: 'There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a fair-skinned person over a person with dark skin, nor for a dark-skinned person over a person with fair skin. Whoever is more pious and God-fearing is more deserving of honour.' (Musnad Ahmad)
Sincerity
The Prophet said: 'Actions will be judged according to their intentions.' (Sahîh Bukhârî, Sahîh Muslim)
Mercy
The Prophet said: 'Show mercy to those on earth so that He who is in heaven will have mercy on you.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
Gentleness
The Prophet said: 'Whoever is deprived of gentleness is deprived of all good.' (Sahîh Muslim)
Forgiveness
The Prophet said: 'Whoever suffers an injury done to him and forgives (the person responsible), Allah will raise his status to a higher degree and remove one of his sins.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
Virtue
The Prophet said: 'Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong if they do evil.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
Justice
The Prophet said: 'The most virtuous jihâd is when one speaks a word of truth before an unjust ruler.' (Sunan Abî Dawûd, Sunan At-Tirmidhî, Sunan Ibn Mâjah)
Civility
The Prophet said: 'The Muslim does not slander, curse, speak obscenely, or speak rudely.' (Sunan At-Tirmidhî)
If other than muslim doesn't approve of Islamic rules (Quran), you have to fight against them. There are no place for friends ("auliya") If you take other than muslim for your "auliya", you become also similar.
In the Qur'an, God mentions;
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
[Qur'an 60:8-9]
Muslims have to fight to get Islam in power. If there are muslims who tend to be peaceful and moderate, they have to deny Quran and they become like others (than muslims). Only way to act like this is to leave Islam. Otherwise you need to obey Quran, words of Mohammed (or Allah).
Doesn't the US have to fight to get in power? Doesn't any nation need to fight a force which is opposing them?
Muslims who are more peaceful are more peaceful because of Qur'an, yet they stand up for their rights when need be - that's how the muslim should be.
"In west, facade of muslim fundamendalism is religion of peace, because they are waiting more muslim immigrants: increasing number and increasing political strenght. When this happens, be aware!" (Walid Shoevat, former muslim, present christian)
No, muslims just want to live in certain lands because they want to practise their religion freely, while being law abiding citizens.
How peaceful is Islam? Are you only being polite for non-muslims and waiting to get enough strenght to start "Holy War"? Or do you think that Islam is one among other religion and everybody can believe in what ever - you don't mind it?
No, we're not. We believe that people have the right to follow the religion they choose to;
Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. [Qur'an 2:256]
If someone would give an order "start Holy War" now, what would you do? Watching beside and seeing what happens? Taking a part of war helping muslim to win a war or non-muslim to end the war?
Living in a non muslim state while having a visa means that we are to live at peace with the people. Killing innocent people is not permitted in Islam, therefore how could people have a 'holy war' within a nation where there is no war zone or leader?
It is actually very interesting. Every laws, rules and orders, that Mohammed said on Medina, are very violent and those laws are above others. When Islam was born it was tied into goverment and it is not kept only as religion but it is also being part of community. Some groups in Islam keep jihad as physical jihad, some keep it only as mental jihad - battle inside person itself.
Ji had is real, but it is done in the right circumstances. Not what you see of innocents being killed, that isn't a part of Islam.
They are lots of muslims who have left Islam, because they kept it as a violent religion that doesn't fit nowadays world.
That's because they never properly understood the religion in the first place, or they followed their desires instead of the true guidance.
I haven't lived among muslims so I have no subjective experiences of Islam. Only knowledge I have learned from several books and so on (including Quran). I haven't study Islam for years like I was studying bible from perspective of Jehovah's witness or studying Christianity from perspective being an christian and so on.
I'm glad you're still open minded and willing to read more about Islam from Muslims
So, I would like to hear what nowadays muslims think about Islam. Of course this will be a view of modern muslim, who is capable of using internet and so on...
Ehm, you don't see the difference between laws, rules and orders when Mohammed started Islam and when Mohammed were a leader? Take your popcorn and read the history.
and just what have you read?
-
My tears testify that i have a heart
yet i feel me and shaytan never part
-
Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a kind form in order to bring reconciliation between them).
Next bus to zagraba now boarding..
step write up and tie your camel in the designated area..
All technologies strictly prohibited, that goes for your nail clippers, your seamless panties, any toiletry applied to the skin in order to mask unpleasant odors..
proceed to the next car where you'll take a quick refresher course in bugaboos in order to send afright unsuspecting civilized westerners.. 5 minutes for gesticulating, another five in loud yammering.. learning how to burn flags optional but recommended..
next car, where a small frontal lobotomy will be preformed to strip you of any proper recorded knowledge of Islamic history, so that you are not having a gelastic seizures everytime you meet with an enlightened foreigner (see above) who seems to know more about Islam both in theology, history and jurisprudence ..
next car another quick refresher on how to oppress your women folk..once graduated, please grab your caps and gowns and foot flip flops on the way off, you are now ready for jihad 101 as defined by the OP...
cheerio
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
Next bus to zagraba now boarding..
step write up and tie your camel in the designated area..
All technologies strictly prohibited, that goes for your nail clippers, your seamless panties, any toiletry applied to the skin in order to mask unpleasant odors..
proceed to the next car where you'll take a quick refresher course in bugaboos in order to send afright unsuspecting civilized westerners.. 5 minutes for gesticulating, another five in loud yammering.. learning how to burn flags optional but recommended..
next car, where a small frontal lobotomy will be preformed to strip you of any proper recorded knowledge of Islamic history, so that you are not having a gelastic seizures everytime you meet with an enlightened foreigner (see above) who seems to know more about Islam both in theology, history and jurisprudence ..
next car another quick refresher on how to oppress your women folk..once graduated, please grab your caps and gowns and foot flip flops on the way off, you are now ready for jihad 101 as defined by the OP...
Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a kind form in order to bring reconciliation between them).
(Sahih Muslim, Hadith number 6303-05)
Yup, and that's been explained;
It was reported that lying was legitimatized to benefit (someone or something), not to impair (the same). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “A person who reconciles between two people and says good things, even if it is not true, is not a liar” (Al-Bukhari and Muslim). Umm Kulthum bint `Uqbah also said, in an addition to the hadith, “I never heard the Prophet permitting lying except in three cases: during war, to reconcile between two belligerent parties, the usual talk between the spouses.” What is meant by this talk is love talk to relieve the sufferings of life.
And in regard to war, deception can be used in circumstances since war is deception by both sides anyway - since both sides are trying to harm the other.
In regard to using words to make his wife happy such as if she asks "do i look fat" - he can say 'no' - even if he thinks she does look fat, so that he doesn't hurt her feelings.
And for jyry, here's more evidences that lying is prohibited
Telling lies is bad conduct. It is not proper for righteous people and true believers; rather, it is a sign of hypocrisy, as the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “The hypocrite has three characteristics: he tells lies, breaks his promise, and breaches the trust” (Al-Bukhari and Muslim).
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) warned against lying for the purpose of entertaining people. He said, “Woe on anyone who speaks to entertain the people by lying, woe on him, woe on him…” (Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi, and An-Nasa’i).
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also said, “One is not considered a true believer till he abandons lying for fun and arguing even if he was telling the truth” (Ahmad and At-Tabarani). Several Prophetic hadiths warned the Muslims against frightening others seriously or jokingly. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, “It is not permissible for anyone to frighten a Muslim” (Abu Dawud).
No, he never. You'll have to bring proof for that.
Didn't found it.. But this happens when Mohammed give an order to kill a man, but murderer's weren't able to do that. Mohammed ask them to lie. If I find this, I will add the quote here.
Muslims are permitted to make peace treaties with other nations.
Please prove that by quoting from the Qur'an, thanks.
Permitted to make a peace when muslims are on weaker position? From Quran
9:29 "Fight against those who believe not into Allah.. until they feel themselves subdueded."
2:256 "There is no compusion in religion" (This is a peaceful verse) but it was overruled by 9:5 "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them..."
Mecca wasn't peaceful, the polytheist pagans tortured, rape and killed many muslims.
I ment to say that when Islam was born, thera are peaceful writings in Quran. I didn't mean that Mecca was a peaceful. Sorry for that. I tried to mean a chronological order. When Mohammed got his positions and was powerful leader, all those kind words and verses were overruled.
Doesn't the US have to fight to get in power? Doesn't any nation need to fight a force which is opposing them?
Fight against the wrong is justified. But fights a name of god/religion is absolutely wrong. Islam and Christianity have terrible fighst in their history. Both made in the name of god. They don't need to be repeated.
But you still see this happening...
Although I was against US attack in Iraq, I hope this would be the new beginning for democracy and equality in human rights in Iraq. It seems to be hard still and seems to impossible...
No, muslims just want to live in certain lands because they want to practise their religion freely, while being law abiding citizens.
This is same for all nation. But every religions must also adapt the laws of the country where they live. However, some of us thinks that you should make changing in a name of god/religion. But then we have to make a question: Which religion is the right one? Why the religion, that I believe in, is the only right religion? When you read more about religions there is always the same statement: This religion is only the right religion. So which one is the right one? When you ask this question among muslims, they will say Islam, christians will say Christianity and so on..
Killing innocent people is not permitted in Islam, therefore how could people have a 'holy war' within a nation where there is no war zone or leader?
Is non-muslim an innocent people? Fundamendal muslims keep non-muslims as people who must be converted or destroy and Islam must rule the world. And if you think about "holy war", there will be muslims and non-muslims, who or where are the innocent people?
those verses are all out of context ^, these are when God gave permission to fight back when muslims were under constant attack from the arabs in Makkah
He it is Who sends blessings on you, as do His angels, that He may bring you out from the depths of Darkness into Light: and He is Full of Mercy to the Believers. [Quran {33:43}] www.QuranicAudio.com www.Quran.com
Didn't found it.. But this happens when Mohammed give an order to kill a man, but murderer's weren't able to do that. Mohammed ask them to lie. If I find this, I will add the quote here.
Please do find it if you can, i'm not sure what you mean.
Permitted to make a peace when muslims are on weaker position? From Quran
9:29 "Fight against those who believe not into Allah.. until they feel themselves subdueded."
I want you to read this link with an open mind like you've read some past books with an open mind;
2:256 "There is no compusion in religion" (This is a peaceful verse) but it was overruled by 9:5 "Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them..."
No, it wasn't abrogated. You see, you're reading from the wrong sources. If you want to read about Islam - you read about it from Islamic sources. The author can make any false claim against Islam, but it doesn't mean its true.
Judaism, Christianity, and many of the world religions were under the protection of the Muslims throughout history. If you look at history, the Jews ran away from the Crusaders and Christian nations and sought refuge in Muslim lands - lands in which Muslims were obligated by God to defend, if they payed a tax {jizyah] - the same way Muslims payed a tax [Zakaah.]
I ment to say that when Islam was born, thera are peaceful writings in Quran. I didn't mean that Mecca was a peaceful. Sorry for that. I tried to mean a chronological order. When Mohammed got his positions and was powerful leader, all those kind words and verses were overruled.
Oh ok I understand.
Fight against the wrong is justified. But fights a name of god/religion is absolutely wrong. Islam and Christianity have terrible fighst in their history. Both made in the name of god. They don't need to be repeated.
I'll quote you what a respectable non muslim author said;
In this formulation the claim was that jihad was better than secular conquest. Unlike Alexander the Great, Mohammed incorporated people in a polity in which they had the option of being saved, in which they had the ability to see for themselves, in which they could choose to become true believers. But it left inner conviction as something over which the individual had full control.
This argument ought to be easy for modern people to understand, or at least Americans, for they also tend to think that war can be legitimated by a high moral purpose - as long as that purpose hasn’t got anything to do with individual faith. The moral purposes they have in mind are wholly secular, not the lower level of religion, and the salvation they talk about is in this world. But they too tend to be eager to rescue other people by enabling them to become more like themselves: richer, freer, more democratic. What do you do when your fingers are itching to intervene, when you have the power to do it, when you are sure you are right and you are convinced that the victims will be grateful - quite apart from all the advantages that may redound to yourself from intervening? Aren’t you allowed to use force? Indeed, aren’t you obliged to use it? Is it right to save people against their will? Should you force them to be free? If you say yes to these questions, you are in effect a believer in jihad.
Although I was against US attack in Iraq, I hope this would be the new beginning for democracy and equality in human rights in Iraq. It seems to be hard still and seems to impossible...
Muslims in Iraq are not happy with what they are facing, this is said by even the US soldiers who have served within Iraq. They just want their lives back, yet so much innocents are being killed.
This article says that a study shows that over 650,000 (six hundred and fifty thousand!) innocent people have been killed in Iraq alone, and i don't think they're happy with what is happening to their people.
This is same for all nation. But every religions must also adapt the laws of the country where they live. However, some of us thinks that you should make changing in a name of god/religion. But then we have to make a question: Which religion is the right one? Why the religion, that I believe in, is the only right religion? When you read more about religions there is always the same statement: This religion is only the right religion. So which one is the right one? When you ask this question among muslims, they will say Islam, christians will say Christianity and so on..
The true religion of God does not have to be changed, don't you see how thousands of Muslims were living peacefully in the west? It's only lately that Islam has been blamed for some evil attacks which aren't even part of the religion.
Is non-muslim an innocent people? Fundamendal muslims keep non-muslims as people who must be converted or destroy and Islam must rule the world. And if you think about "holy war", there will be muslims and non-muslims, who or where are the innocent people?
The innocent people are those who don't participate in the war. Therefore, innocent people living their daily lives in the UK, US, Europe etc. should not be killed or harmed. This is a part of Islam, so we don't need to change Islam. But we do need to speak out against those who kill innocent people, no matter what faith group they are from.
In the Qur'an, God/Allah says (translation of the meaning);
Whosoever kills a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saves the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind.
[Qur'an 5:32]
Even in combat, the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) said to his companions;
Allah’s Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) used to say the following words to his troops before sending them to war: “Go forward in the name of Allah. Do not kill an elderly person, nor a child, nor a woman, and do not exceed the bounds.” [Recorded in al-Muwatta’]
i wanna ride around in the desert on a camel wrapped in flowing robes!!!!! - if i become a muslim can i????
Munch Munch Munch.
Oh Hai Snakey! 'scuse the popcorn crumbs.
Yah, get me a camel too! I want one of those Parthian Kataphracktoi Camels. Theyre Like Camels but wearing steel armour! Whoo!
Munch Munch Munch.
Occupation: The term of control of a territory by foreign military forces: Iraq 2003-2005 Liberation:when something or someone is freed: Operation Telic 2003
you want a camel? I'll sell you a camel, he has three horse power, all my camels come standard with a second hump for driver back protection, a two side way climbs for easy access, sun and moon view, offered in three trim level, driver's side windbag and a ventbag, inferior camels detecting sensors for fast maneuverability and steering, adjustable seatings, mouth nozzles, and new side markers in dashing colors of maroon and jade, all my camels guranteed or your money back...
we also do leasing and financing on older but still great working models...
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
The Prophet saws told us not to throw our pearls to swine. - This persson does not want to know, he wants to speak in the megaphone and bait Muslims with his argumentation.
Let him do some digging in previous threads i have posted if he really wants to know...
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