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Verse 11 Surah 41.

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    Verse 11 Surah 41. (OP)


    Assalamu Alykum.

    41.11 Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."

    We notice that Allah tells us that the universe had been as smoke (Alright,has been prouved by science).
    But the problem is not here. We understand that Allah spoke to the Earth when the uiverse was as smoke. Now, we know Earth did not exisit when the universe was smoke.

    Some light please.

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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

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    format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint View Post
    Could you analyze the meanings of thumma in the verses we have been discussing?
    Does the meaning of the thumma depends on the meaning? - does that mean it may depend on interpretation? Say, someone believes the earth and the skies were created simultaniously, so they will translate thumma to "and", whereas another person will translate it to "then"...
    I think if you are going to approach a particular sura, that you should take it in whole and not in part..
    if you are familiar with antonio machado poems, you'll know that there are several translations floating out there, with Robert Bly, being a foremost authority, well as it so happens, native spanish speakers from what they have told me, that Bly is a competent linguist, but doesn't evoke the actual feeling of the poems.. some others state that he evokes it in such a way as if making a new poem all together.. you have to accept that something will be lost to you in the translation.. you can go literal, and have it lose the proper impression its meant to evoke, there is a thousand equivalence for each word between languages. or you can have the evocation and feel it somehow a re-creation of something as it doesn't convey its proper meaning... you can also learn a language that doesn't appeal to you, but that is in fact what many people do when they embrace Islam, least of which on a bare minimum level to perform their prayers!

    bottom line is, I am not going to argue semantics about and or then, the commentary and translation of weiss, was/is the best I have seen from all other translation.. do I get the same feeling reading it, as if I were reading it in Arabic? absolutely not, I am blessed in that regards in a way many others aren't..
    if you are interested in the sura as a whole then I reference you to
    THE FORTY-FIRST SURAH

    FUSSILAT (CLEARLY SPELLED OUT)

    MECCA PERIOD

    REVEALED immediately after the preceding surah, this one continues the theme begun in the latter: man’s reasoned acceptance or willful rejection of divine revelations. The title is derived from the verb fussilat occurring in verse 3, where it relates to the “clearly spelled-out” messages of the Quran.

    DIVINE WRIT IN ARABIC

    IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE: (1) Ha. Mim. [See Appendix II.] (2) THE BESTOWAL from on high [of this revelation] issues from the Most Gracious, the Dis*penser of Grace: (3) a divine writ, the messages whereof have been clearly spelled out as a discourse in the Arabic tongue for people of [innate] knowl*edge, [See 12: 2 and the corresponding note.] (4) to be a herald of glad tidings as well as a warning. And yet, [whenever this divine writ is offered to men,] most of them turn away, so that they cannot hear [its message]; [The “people of [innate] knowledge” mentioned in the preceding verse are obviously those who understand the spiritual purport of this divine writ and, therefore, submit to its guidance: hence, it cannot be “most of them” who are referred to in the above phrase and in the next verse but, on the contrary, people who are devoid of such knowledge and to whom, in consequence, the Quran is meaningless. This elliptically implied differentiation - overlooked by almost all of the commentators (with perhaps the sole exception of Ibn Kathir) - can only be brought out by means of an interpolation at the beginning of the sentence.] (5) and so they say, [as it were:] “Our hearts are veiled from whatever thou callest us to, [O Muhammad,] and in our ears is deafness, and between us and thee is a barrier. [For this rendering of the term hijab, see note on the first sentence of 7: 46. See also 6: 25. The “saying” of those who turn away from the message of the Quran is, of course, figurative, describing only their attitude.] Do, then, [whatever thou wilt, whereas,] behold, we shall do [as we have always done]!”

    BELIEF IN GOD’S ONENESS AND CHARITABLENESS

    (6) Say thou, [O Prophet:] “I am but a mortal like you. [Cf. 6: 50 and the corresponding note.]

    It has been revealed to me that your God is the One God: go, then, straight towards Him and seek His forgiveness!” And woe unto those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him, (7) [and] those who do not spend in charity: for it is they, they who [thus] deny the truth of the life to come! [Belief in God’s oneness and charitableness towards one’s fellow-men are two cardinal demands of Islam. Conversely, a deliberate offence against either of these two demands amounts to a denial of man’s responsibility before God and hence, by implication, of a continuation of life in the hereafter. (For my rendering of zakah, in this context, as “charity”, see note on 2: 43. It is to be borne in mind that the application of this term to the obligatory tax incumbent on Muslims dates from the Medina period, whereas the present surah is a Meccan revelation.)] (8) [But,] verily, they who have attained to faith and do good works shall have a reward unending!

    CREATION OF EARTH

    (9) SAY: “Would you indeed deny Him who has created the earth in two aeons? [For the above rendering of the term yawm (lit., “day”), as “aeon”, see last third of note on 7: 54. As in so many verses of the Quran which relate to cosmic events, the repeated mention of the “six aeons” during which the universe was created - “two” of which, according to the above verse, were taken by the evolution of the inorganic universe, including the earth - has a purely allegorical import: in this case, I believe, an indication that the universe did not exist “eternally” but had a definite beginning in time, and that it required a definite time-lapse to evolve to its present condition.] And do you claim that there is any power that could rival Him, the Sustainer of all the worlds?” [Lit., “do you give Him compeers (andad)?” For an explanation, see note on 2: 22.] (10) For He [it is who, after creating the earth,] placed firm mountains on it, [towering] above its surface, and bestowed [so many] blessings on it, and equitably apportioned * its means of subsistence to all who would seek it: [I.e., in accordance with divine justice, and not with human concepts of “equity” or “need”.] [and all this He created] in four aeons. [Almost all the classical commentators agree in that these “four aeons include the “two” mentioned in the preceding verse: hence my interpolation of the words “and all this He created”. Together with the “two aeons of verse 12, the entire allegorical number comes to six.] (11) And [Whenever the particle thumma is used, as in the above instance, to link parallel statements – i.e., statements not necessarily indicating a sequence in time - it has the function of a simple conjunction, and may be rendered as “and”.] He [it is who] applied His design to the skies, which were [yet but] smoke; [I.e., a gas - evidently hydrogen gas, which physicists regard as the primal element from which all material particles of the universe have evolved and still evolve. For the meaning of the term sama (“sky” or “skies” or “heaven”) in its cosmic connotation, see note on 2: 29.] and He [it is who] said to them and to the earth, “Come [into being], both of you, willingly or unwillingly!” - to which both responded, “We do come in obedience.” [Explaining this passage, Zamakhshari observes: “The meaning of God’s command to the skies and the earth to ‘come’, and their submission [to His command] is this: He willed their coming into being, and so they came to be as He willed them to be and this is the kind of metaphor (majaz) which is called ‘allegory’ (tamthil). Thus, the purport [of this passage] is but an illustration (taswir) of the effect of His almighty power on all that is willed [by Him], and nothing else.” (It is obvious that Zamakhshari’s reasoning is based on the oft-repeated Quranic statement, “When God wills a thing to be, He but says unto it, ‘Be’ - and it is.”) Concluding his interpretation of the above passage, Zamakhshari adds: “If I am asked about the meaning of [the words] ‘willingly or unwillingly’, I say that it is a figurative expression (mathal) indicating that His almighty will must inevitably take effect.”] (12) And He [it is who] decreed that they become seven heavens * in two aeons, and imparted unto each heaven its function. [*I.e., a multiplicity of cosmic systems (cf. note on

    2: 29).] And We adorned the skies nearest to the earth with lights, and made them secure: [Cf. 15: 16-18 and the corresponding notes; also 37: 6ff.] such is the ordaining of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.

    THUNDERBOLT OF PUNISHMENT FOR TRIBE OF AD AND THAMUD

    (13) BUT IF they turn away, say: [This connects with the opening sentence of verse 9 above: “Would you indeed deny Him who has created…”, etc.] “I warn you of [the coming of] a thunderbolt of punishment [See note on 2: 55.] like the thunderbolt [that fell upon the tribes] of Ad and Thamud!” [For the story of these two ancient tribes, see 7: 65-79 and the corresponding notes; also 26: 123-158.] (14) Lo! There came unto them [God’s] apostles, speaking of what lay open before them and what was [still] beyond their ken, * [and calling unto them,] “Worship none but God!” [*Lit., “from between their hands and from behind them”: i.e., reminding them of something that was known to them - namely, what happened to sinners like themselves who lived before their time - and warning them of what was bound to happen in the future to them, too, if they persisted in their denial of the truth (Al-Hasan al-Basri, as quoted by Zamakhshari). However, it is possible to understand the above phrase (which has been explained in note on 2: 255) in yet another, more direct way: God’s message-bearers pointed out to those sinning communities something that should have been obvious to them (lit., “between their hands”) - namely, their patently wrong attitude in their worldly, social concerns and moral concepts - as well as the unreasonableness of their denying something that was still beyond their ken (lit., “behind them”): namely, life after death and God’s ultimate judgment.] They answered: “If our Sustainer had willed [us to believe in what you say], He would have sent down angels [as His message-bearers]. [Cf. 6: 8-9 and 15: 7.] As it is, behold, we deny that there is any truth in what you [claim to] have been sent with!” (15) Now as for [the tribe of] Ad, they walked arrogantly on earth, [offending] against all right, and saying, “Who could have a power greater than ours?” Why - were they, then, not aware that God, who created them, had a power greater than theirs? But they went on rejecting Our messages; (16) and thereupon We let loose upon them a storm wind raging through days of misfortune, [See 69: 6-8.] so as to give them, in the life of this world, a foretaste of suffering through humiliation: but [their] suffering in the life to come will be far more humiliating, and they will have none to succour them. (17) And as for [the tribe of] Thamud, We offered them guidance, but they chose blindness in pre*ference to guidance: and so the thunderbolt of shame*ful suffering fell upon them as an outcome of all [the evil] that they had wrought; (18) and We saved [only] those who had attained to faith and were conscious of Us.

    SINNERS BEARING WITNESS AGAINST THEMSELVES ON THE JUDGMENT DAY

    (19) Hence, [warn all men of] the Day when the enemies of God shall be gathered together before the fire, and then shall be driven onward, (20) till, when they come close to it, their hearing and their sight and their [very] skins will bear witness against them, speaking of what they were doing [on earth]. (21) And they will ask their skins, “Why did you bear witness against us?” - [and] these will reply: “God, who gives speech to all things, has given speech to us [as well]: for He [it is who] has created you in the first instance - and unto Him you are [now] brought back. (22) And you did not try to hide [your sins] lest your hearing or your sight or your skins bear witness against you: nay, but you thought that God did not know much of what you were doing - (23) and that very thought which you thought about your Sustainer has brought you to perdition, and so now you find yourselves among the lost!” (24) And then, [even] if they endure [their lot] in patience, the fire will still be their abode; [Sc., “unless God wills to reprieve them”: see the last paragraph of 6: 128 and the corresponding note; also the hadith quoted in note on 40: 12.] and if they pray to be allowed to make amends, they will not be allowed to do so: [Lit., “they will not be of those who are allowed to make amends”: an allusion to the request of the doomed, on the Day of Judgment, to be granted a “second chance” on earth, and to God’s refusal of this request (cf. 6: 27-28 and 32: 12).]

    EVIL SOUL-MATES

    (25) for [when they became obli*vious of Us,] We assigned to them [their own evil impulses as their] other selves, [Or: “soul-mates” (cf. 4: 38). The verb qarana, from which the noun qarin is derived, signifies “he linked” or “intimately associated” or “yoked together [one thing with another]”. Cf. 43: 36 - “as for anyone who chooses to remain blind to the remembrance of the Most Gracious, to him We assign an [enduring] evil impulse [lit., “a Satan”], to become his other self”.] and these made appear goodly to them whatever lay open before them and whatever was beyond their ken. [Lit., “that which was between their hands and that which was behind them”: i.e., their own evil impulses (which had become their “other selves”, as it were) made alluring to them the unrestrained enjoyment, without any moral discrimination, of all the worldly attractions which lay open before them, causing them, at the same time, to dismiss as an illusion the idea of resurrection and of God’s judgment - thus giving them a false sense of security with regard to something that was beyond their ken.] And so, the sentence [of doom] will have fallen due upon them together with the [other sinful] com*munities of invisible beings [For this rendering - and the meaning - of the term jinn, see Appendix III.] and humans that passed away before their time: verily, they [all] will indeed be lost!

    SUFFERING FOR KNOWINGLY REJECTING GOD’S MESSAGES

    (26) NOW THOSE who are bent on denying the truth say [unto one another]: “Do not listen to this Quran, but rather talk frivolously about it, so that you might gain the upper hand!” [This is an allusion to efforts aimed at discrediting the Quran by describing it as “invented” by Muhammad for his own - personal and political - ends, as a series of “misunderstood quo*tations” from earlier scriptures, as the result of “hallucinations”, and so forth: all of which implies that the opponents of the Quranic message instinctively feel its force, realizing at the same time that it endangers their self-complacent, materialistic outlook on life and ought, therefore, to be combated. This explains the statement, at the end of verse 28, that they “knowingly reject” God’s messages.] (27) But We shall most certainly give those who are [thus] bent on denying the truth a taste of suffering severe, and We shall most certainly requite them according to the worst of their deeds! (28) That requital of God’s enemies will be the fire [of the hereafter]: in it will they have an abode of immeasurable duration as an outcome of their having knowingly rejected Our messages. [For the above rendering of the verb jahada, see the third note on 29: 47.] (29) And they who [in their life on earth] were bent on denying the truth will [thereupon] exclaim: “O our Sustainer! Show us those of the invisible beings and humans that have led us astray: [See 6: 112 - “against every prophet We have set up as enemies the evil forces (shayatin) from among humans as well as from among invisible beings” - and the corresponding note.] we shall trample them underfoot, so that they shall be the lowest of all!” [Cf. 7: 38.]

    DESCENDING OF ANGELS ON DOERS OF GOOD

    (30) [But,] behold, as for those who say, “Our Sustainer is God,” and then steadfastly pursue the right way - upon them do angels often descend, [say*ing:] “Fear not and grieve not, but receive the glad tiding of that paradise which has been promised to you! (31) We are close unto you in the life of this world and [will be so] in the life to come; and in that [life to come] you shall have all that your souls may desire, and in it you shall have all that you ever prayed for, (32) as a ready welcome from Him who is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!” (33) And who could be better of speech than he who calls [his fellow-men] unto God, and does what is just and right, and says, “Verily, I am of those who have surrendered themselves to God”?

    REPEL EVIL WITH GOOD

    (34) But [since] good and evil cannot be equal, repel thou [evil] with something that is better [See note on 13: 22. In the present instance, the injunction to “repel [evil] with something that is better” relates to scurrilous objections to, and hostile criticism of, the Quran. The whole of this passage (verses 33 ff.) connects with verse 26.] - and lo! he between whom and thyself was enmity [may then become] as though he had [always] been close [unto thee], a true friend! [You foil hatred with love and liberate those from sin and make them your true friends.] (35) Yet [to achieve] this is not given to any but those who are wont to be patient in adversity: it is not given to any but those endowed with the greatest good fortune! (36) Hence, if it should happen that a prompting from Satan stirs thee up [to blind anger], seek refuge with God: behold, He alone is all-hearing, all-knowing! [I.e., He alone sees what is in the hearts of men, and He alone understands the innermost motivations, of which they themselves are unconscious, of those who criticize the Quran adversely. See 7: 199-200 and the corresponding notes.]

    GOD AS CAUSE AND SOURCE OF ALL THAT EXISTS

    (37) Now among His signs are the night and the day, as well as the sun and the moon: [hence,] adore not the sun or the moon, but prostrate yourselves in adoration before God, who has created them - if it is Him whom you [really] worship. [This, according to Razi, connects with the phrase “calling [one’s fellow-men] unto God” in verse 33 above. God is the sole cause and source of all that exists; and whatever exists is but a wondrous sign of His creative power. Hence, it is a blasphemy - apart from being unreasonable - to ascribe real power (which is the meaning of “adoration” in this context) to anything created, whether it be a concrete phenomenon, or an abstract force of nature, or a set of circumstances, or even an idea.] (38) And though some be too proud [to listen to this call], they who [in their hearts] are with thy Sustainer extol His limitless glory by night and by day, and never grow weary [thereof]. (39) For among His signs is this: thou seest the earth lying desolate - and lo! when We send down water upon it, it stirs and swells [with life]! Verily, He who brings it to life can surely give life to the dead [of heart as well]: for, behold, He has the power to will anything. [Although the allusion to the reviving earth often occurs in the Quran as a parable of man’s ultimate resurrection, in the present context (and in tune with the entire passage comprising verses 33-39) it appears to be an illustration of God’s power to bestow spiritual life upon hearts that have hitherto remained closed to the truth of His existence and omnipotence. Hence, it implies a call to the believer never to abandon the hope that “those who deny the truth” may one day grasp the truth of the Quranic message.]

    REJECTION OF THE THEORY OF ABROGATION

    (40) VERILY, they who distort the meaning of Our mes*sages are not hidden from Us: hence, which [of the two] will be in a better state - he that is [destined to be] cast into the fire, or he that shall come secure [before Us] on Resurrection Day? Do what you will: verily, He sees all that you do. (41) Verily, they who are bent on denying the truth of this reminder as soon as it comes to them - [they are the losers]: for, behold, it is a sublime divine writ: (42) no falsehood can ever attain to it openly, and neither in a stealthy manner, * [since it is] bestowed from on high by One who is truly wise, ever to be praised. [*Lit., “neither from between its hands, nor from behind it”, i.e., it cannot be openly changed by means of additions or omissions (Razi), and neither surreptitiously, by hostile or deliberately confusing interpretations. The above is one of the Quranic passages on which the great com*mentator Abu Muslim al-Isfahani (as quoted by Razi) bases his absolute rejection of the theory of “abrogation” (for which see note on 2: 106). Since the “abrogation” of any Quran-verse would have amounted to its ibtal - that is, to an open or implied declaration that it was henceforth to be regarded as null and void - the verse in question would have to be considered “false” (batil) in the context of the Quran as it is before us: and this, as Abu Muslim points out, would clearly contradict the above statement that “no falsehood (batil) can ever attain to it”.]

    MEN’S ATTITUDES TOWARDS THE EARLIER SCRIPTURES AND THE QURAN

    (43) [And as for thee, O Prophet,] nothing is being said to thee but what was said to all [of God’s] apostles before thy time. [This is an allusion to the allegation of the Prophet’s opponents that he himself was the “author” of what he claimed to be a divine revelation, as well as to their demand that he should “prove” the truth of his prophetic mission by producing a miracle: a scornful attitude with which all the earlier prophets had been confronted at one time or another, and which is epitomized in the “saying” of the unbelievers mentioned in verse 5 of this surah.] Behold, thy Sustainer is indeed full of forgiveness - but He has also the power to requite most grie*vously! (44) Now if We had willed this [divine writ] to be a discourse in a non-Arabic tongue, they [who now reject it] would surely have said, “Why is it that its messages have not been spelled out clearly? [Sc., “in a tongue which we can understand”. Since the Prophet was an Arab and lived in an Arabian environment, his message had to be expressed in the Arabic language, which the people to whom it was addressed in the first instance could understand: see in this connection note on the first sentence of 13: 37, as well as the first half of 14: 4 - “never have We sent forth any apostle otherwise than [with a message] in his own people’s tongue, so that he might make [the truth] clear unto them”. Had the message of the Quran been formulated in a language other than Arabic, the opponents of the Prophet would have been justified in saying, “between us and thee is a barrier” (verse 5 of this surah).] Why - [a message in] a non-Arabic tongue, and [its bearer] an Arab?” Say: “Unto all who have attained to faith, this [divine writ] is a guidance and a source of health; but as for those who will not believe - in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them: they are [like people who are] being called from too far away. [Lit., “from a far-off place”: i.e., they only hear the sound of the words, but cannot understand their meaning.] (45) Thus, too, have We vouchsafed revelation unto Moses aforetime, and thereupon disputes arose about it. [As was and is the case with the Quran, some people accepted the divine message revealed to Moses, and some rejected it (Zamakhshari, Razi), while others disagreed about the import and application of its tenets (Tabari).] And [then, as now,] had it not been for a decree that had already gone forth from thy Sustainer, all would indeed have been decided between them [from the outset]. [For an explanation of this passage, as well as of the above parallel between men’s attitudes towards the earlier scriptures and the Quran, see the second sentence of 10: 19 and the corresponding note.] As it is, behold, they [who will not believe in this divine writ] are in grave doubt, amounting to suspicion, about what it portends. [Lit., “about it”, i.e., doubts as to whether the Quranic approach to problems of man’s spirit and body - and, in particular, its stress on the essential unity of these twin aspects of human life (cf. note on the first sentence of 2: 143) - is justified or not. In a wider sense, these doubts of the deniers of the truth relate to the question of whether religion as such is “beneficial” or “injurious” to human society - a question which is posed and answered by them with a strong bias against all religious faith.] (46) WHOEVER does what is just and right, does so for his own good; and whoever does evil, does so to his own hurt: and never does God do the least wrong to His creatures.

    JUDGMENT DAY

    (47) In Him alone is vested the knowledge of when the Last Hour will come. And no fruit bursts forth from its calyx, and no female ever conceives, nor ever gives birth, save with His knowledge. And so, on the Day when He shall call out to them, “Where, now, are those [alleged] partners of Mine?” - they will [surely] answer, “We confess unto Thee that none of us can bear witness [to anyone’s having a share in Thy divinity]!” (48) And so, all that they were wont to invoke aforetime will have forsaken them; and they shall know for certain that there is no escape for them.

    (49) MAN NEVER TIRES of asking for the good [things of life]; and if evil fortune touches him, he abandons all hope, giving himself up to despair. [See note on 11: 9.] (50) Yet whenever We let him taste some of Our grace after hardship has visited him, he is sure to say, “This is but my due!” - and, “I do not think that the Last Hour will ever come: [I.e., man is, as a rule, so blinded by his love of this world that he cannot imagine its ever coming to an end. Implied in this statement is a doubt as to whether there will really be an afterlife, and whether man will really be judged by God on resurrection.] but if [it should come, and] I should indeed be brought back unto my Sus*tainer, then, behold, the ultimate good awaits me with Him! [Being fully convinced of his own merit (as expressed in the words, “This is but my due”), he is confident that - in case there should really be a life after death - his own flattering view of himself will be confirmed by God.] But [on the Day of Judgment] We shall most cer*tainly give those who were bent on denying the truth [I.e., the truth of resurrection and of God’s judgment.] full understanding of all that they ever did, and shall most certainly give them [thereby] a taste of suffering severe. [I.e., the realization of the spiritual blindness in which they spent their life will in itself be a source of their suffering in the hereafter: cf. 17: 72 - “whoever is blind [of heart] in this [world] will be blind in the life to come (as well)”.] (51) And, too, when We bestow Our blessings upon man, he tends to turn aside and keep aloof [from remembering Us]; but as soon as evil fortune touches him, he is full of wordy prayers! [Lit., “wide (i.e., prolonged or diffuse) prayers”.] (52) HAVE YOU given thought [to how you will fare] if this be truly [a revelation] from God, the while you deny its truth? Who could be more astray than one who places himself [so] deeply in the wrong? [According to Razi, this is an implied allusion to the attitude of people who - as mentioned in verses 4 and 5 of this surah - “turn away” from the message of the Quran, saying, as it were: “Our hearts are veiled from whatever thou callest us to, [O Muhammad,] and in our ears is deafness, and between us and thee is a barrier.] (53) In time We shall make them fully understand [Lit., “We will show them” or “make them see”.] Our messages [through what they perceive] in the utmost horizons [of the universe] and within them*selves, [I.e., through a progressive deepening and widening of their insight into the wonders of the universe as well as through a deeper understanding of man’s own psyche - all of which points to the existence of a conscious Creator.] so that it will become clear unto them that this [revelation] is indeed the truth. [Still,] is it not enough [for them to know] that thy Sustainer is witness unto everything? [I.e., that He is almighty and all-seeing: a fundamental truth which, by itself, should be enough to remind man of his responsibility before Him.] (54) Oh, verily, they are in doubt as to whether they will meet their Sustainer [on Judgment Day]! Oh, verily, He encompasses everything!

    peace and gnight!
    Verse 11 Surah 41.

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Verse 11 Surah 41.

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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.




    http://islamtoday.net/english/show_d...id=23&q_id=829


    Question: Does the Qur’ân teach us that the Earth was created first and then the heavens were created? Would this not contradict with our current scientific knowledge?

    Answered by the Scientific Research Committee - IslamToday.net




    The Qur’ân does not go into detail about the mechanics of the creation of the universe. Its focus is on the fact that Allah created everything and on reminding us of all the blessings that we have in what Allah has created for us.


    The verses in question are the following:

    “It is He who created for you all that is in the Earth, then turned to the heaven and made them seven heavens. And He has knowledge of all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 29]

    “Say: Is it that ye deny Him who created the Earth in two days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of all the Worlds. He set within it mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings upon the Earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days alike for (all) who ask. Then He turned to the heaven and they had been smoke. He said to it and to the Earth: ‘Come willingly or unwillingly.’ They said: We come willingly.’ So He completed them as seven heavens in two days…” [Sûrah Fussilat: 9-12]


    It is important to note that the word thumma” – translated in the above-mentioned verses as “then”does not always indicate chronology. Al-Razî, in his commentary on verse 29 of Sûrah al-Baqarah, states that in this verse, the word thumma it is not indicative of chronology. He writes:


    The word “then” (thumma) is not here for chronological order, but merely to enumerate blessings. It is like when one man says to another: “Did I not give you great benefits, then raised your status, then repelled your opponents?” It may be that some of what he mentioned later took place first. The same can be said here. [Mafâtîh al-Ghayb (2/143)]
    Al-Baydâwî writes:
    Perhaps the word “then” (thumma) here is to indicate the disproportion between the two creations and the greater merit of the creation of the heavens over the creation of the Earth. This is like when Allah says: “Then (thumma) he had been among those who believed”. This is not to indicate its occurring later chronologically. [Tafsîr al-Baydâwî (1/27)]

    Keep in mind that these commentators lived a long time ago (roughly 800 years back). They had no reason to worry about the scientific implications that we worry about today, because our current scientific knowledge about the formation of the universe and planets was not around back then. They were only concerned with the linguistic meaning of these verses and were speaking from a purely linguistic perspective.

    These verses are simply not discussing the sequential order of the events of creation.

    And Allah knows best.
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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    That's sufficient to close the case. walhamdulillah.
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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone View Post
    if in doubt there is always the dictionary

    Arabic - English
    ثُمَّ حــــــــــــرف حَرْفُ عَطْفٍ يُفِيدُ التَّرَاخِي = thouma
    after that , next , then




    http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidi...E-A&Sub=%cb%e3



    I agree sis! 'wa' means 'and'.
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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone View Post
    not all translators are scholars or vice versa, it doesn't change what it actually means!
    Will an Arab uneducated in the matters of islamic science read "youm" as "a day" or "an undefined period of time"?

    I think it couldn't be more clear, therein in that first (big bang) all the material for our known universe sprang forth.. no different than you having all the material you need to express yourself using only 26 letters of the alphabet.
    that's one way to intepret it.

    بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِ
    وَالنَّازِعَاتِ غَرْقًا {1}
    [Pickthal 79:1] By those who drag forth to destruction,
    وَالنَّاشِطَاتِ نَشْطًا {2}

    [Pickthal 79:2] By the meteors rushing,
    وَالسَّابِحَاتِ سَبْحًا {3}
    [Pickthal 79:3] By the lone stars floating,
    فَالسَّابِقَاتِ سَبْقًا {4}

    [Pickthal 79:4] By the angels hastening,
    فَالْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْرًا {5}

    [Pickthal 79:5] And those who govern the event,
    يَوْمَ تَرْجُفُ الرَّاجِفَةُ {6}
    [Pickthal 79:6] On the day when the first trump resoundeth.
    تَتْبَعُهَا الرَّادِفَةُ {7}
    [Pickthal 79:7] And the second followeth it,
    قُلُوبٌ يَوْمَئِذٍ وَاجِفَةٌ {8}
    [Pickthal 79:8] On that day hearts beat painfully
    that's interesting. May predictions were at least partly false. Are there any verses that indicate that the Earth is a planet around the sun?[/QUOTE]
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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint View Post
    Will an Arab uneducated in the matters of islamic science read "youm" as "a day" or "an undefined period of time"?
    An un-educated Arab, will probably not be able to read at all to issue some abstract thought to very sophisticated text.. I have visited with some mighty ignorant folks in Saudi Arabia who may as well have been living in pre-Islamic Arabia...

    Many verses in the Quran allude that we are given little knowledge and that those who are knowledgeable are but a handful..
    وَمَا أُوتِيتُم مِّن الْعِلْمِ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً {85}

    17:85 and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
    Also:

    إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ {28}

    3) In the Quranic view, true authentic knowledge should make scientists/scholars the most pious and humble people toward God: “Among his Servants are those who have knowledge” (The Quran 35: 28).

    we are also asked
    So ask the People of Knowledge if you do not know [Surah 21:7]


    And those who have been given Knowledge know that that which has been revealed to you from your Lord is the Truth [Surah 34:6]


    that is why it is my personal belief that it doesn't matter how many Muslims we have in the world, so long as they are quality Muslims, learned Muslims, and it is certainly our duty to educate those ignorant in our midst, or at least do our best to correct their misconceptions, before we start with islamophobes... can't argue or refute matters if you haven't perfected your own knowledge?!



    that's interesting. May predictions were at least partly false. Are there any verses that indicate that the Earth is a planet around the sun?
    I think you should purchase A Quran copy from amazon, the one I have suggested..

    here are some verses about our solar system
    When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets (Kawakib) and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me."

    which speaks of 11 planets in our solar system with sun and moon a seperate ..
    In many different suras celestial bodies are given different names, I am sure are unprecedented in previous scriptures.. such as khunas, kawakib, tariq, najm, shams, qamar, etc
    I am excerpting this next piece from:
    http://www.ummah.com/ifsa/pages/sect...my/astro5b.htm

    Khunnas, kawakib, tariq (not taraiq), shams, qamar and najm, are the Quranic words for heavenly or celestial bodies. The Khunnas are like planets, but other than these they appear and disappear in alternating phases, the kawakib are the orbiting planets, najm is a star, tariq a very bright night-or morning-star, in fact a planet, like Venus. Shams is the sun and qamar the moon. These bodies are clearly distinguished by their character and roles in the Quran. .
    you can read about it in more detail and, in this sura.. hopefully it will prove more cohesive for you?



    sura 81


    AT-TAKWIR (SHROUDING IN DARKNESS)

    THE EIGHTY-FIRST SURAH
    Total Verses: 29
    MECCA PERIOD



    Introduction



    THE conventional designation of this very early surah (most probably the seventh in the order of revelation) is derived from the verb kuwwirat, which occurs in the first verse and introduces the symbolic image of the Last Hour and, hence, of man's resurrection.



    IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST GRACIOUS, THE DISPENSER OF GRACE:



    81: 1

    WHEN THE SUN is shrouded in darkness,



    82: 2

    and when the stars lose their light,



    81: 3

    and when the mountains are made to vanish,*



    * See 20:105-107 and the corresponding note 90; also note 63 on 14:48.



    81: 4

    and when she-camels big with young, about to give birth, are left untended,



    81: 5

    and when all beasts are gathered together,*



    * I.e., when they crowd together in terror of the manifestation of the Last Hour, or as Mu’tazili commentators maintain - in order to be indemnified by God for man's cruelty to them (Razi). It is also said that the animals which were loved by human beings will live in the hereafter together with those who loved them (Zamakhshari). This interpretation is evidently based on 6:38 - "there is no beast that walks on earth and no bird that flies on its two wings which is not [God's] creature like yourselves" - followed almost immediately by the wordss, "Unto their Sustainer shall they [all] be gathered."



    81: 6

    and when the seas boil over,



    81: 7

    and when all human beings are coupled [with their deeds],*



    * I.e., when none will be able to divest himself of responsibility for his past deeds.



    81: 8

    and when the girl-child that was buried alive is made to ask



    81: 9

    for what crime she had been slain,*



    * The barbaric custom of burying female infants alive seems to have been fairly widespread in pre-Islamic Arabia, although perhaps not to the extent as has been commonly assumed. The motives were twofold: the fear that an increase of female offspring would result in economic burdens, as well as fear of the humiliation frequently caused by girls being captured by a hostile tribe and subsequently preferring their captors to their parents and brothers. Before Islam, one of the foremost opponents of this custom was Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nufayl, a cousin of Umar ibn al-Khattab and spiritually a precursor of Muhammad (cf. Bukhari, Fada'il Ashab an-Nabi on the authority of Abd Allah ibn Umar); he died shortly before Muhammad's call to prophethood (Fath al-Bari VII, 112). Another man, Sa‘sa‘ah ibn Najiyah at-Tamimi - grandfather of the poet Farazdaq - achieved equal fame as a saviour of infants thus condemned to death; he later embraced Islam. Ibn Khallikan (II, 197) mentions that Sa‘sa‘ah saved about thirty girls by paying ransom to their parents.



    81: 10

    and when the scrolls [of men's deeds] are unfolded,



    81: 11

    and when heaven is laid bare,



    81: 12

    and when the blazing fire [of hell] is kindled bright,



    81: 13

    and when paradise is brought into view:



    81: 14

    [on that Day] every human being will come to know what he has prepared [for himself].



    81: 15

    BUT NAY! I call to witness the revolving stars,



    81: 16

    the planets that run their course and set,



    81: 17

    and the night as it darkly falls,



    81: 18

    and the morn as it softly breathes:



    81: 19

    behold, this [divine writ] is indeed the [inspired] word of a noble apostle,*



    * By "calling to witness" certain natural phenomena which are familiar to man because of their permanent recurrence, attention is drawn to the fact that what we call "laws of nature" are but the observable elements of God's plan of creation - a plan in which His revelations (referred to in this and the subsequent verses) play a decisive role: and so, by implication, the divine writ granted to Muhammad is as intrinsically "natural" as any other phenomenon, concrete or abstract, in the realm of God's creation.



    81: 20

    with strength endowed, secure with Him who in almightiness is enthroned*



    * Lit., "with Him of the throne of almightiness". It is to be noted that the Qur'anic term ‘arsh - of which the above is the earliest occurrence in the order of revelation - invariably signifies God's absolute sovereignty and almightiness (cf. note 43 on 7:54).



    81: 21

    [the word] of one to be heeded, and worthy of trust!



    81: 22

    For, this fellow-man of yours is not a madman:*



    * See surah 68, note 3. The characterization of Muhammad as "this fellow-man of yours" is meant to stress his absolute humanness, and thus to counteract any possibility on the part of his followers to deify him. (See also note 150 on 7:184.)



    81: 23

    he truly beheld [the angel - beheld] him on the clear horizon;*



    * This is evidently a reference to the Prophet's vision of the Angel Gabriel which ended the break in revelation (fatrat al-wahy) mentioned in the introductory note to surah 74. See also 53:5 ff. and the corresponding notes.



    81: 24

    and he is not one to begrudge others the knowledge [of whatever has been revealed to him] out of that which is beyond the reach of human Perception.*



    * Sc., "and so he conveys this revelation to you".



    81: 25

    Nor is this [message] the word of any satanic force accursed.*



    * For my occasional rendering of shaytan as "satanic force", see first half of note 16 on 15:17.



    81: 26

    Whither, then, will you go?



    81: 27

    This [message] is no less than a reminder to all mankind –



    81: 28

    to everyone of you who wills to walk a straight way.



    81: 29

    But you cannot will it unless God, the Sustainer of all the worlds, wills [to show you that way].*



    * I.e., "you can will it only because God has willed to show you the right way by means of the positive instincts which He has implanted in you, as well as through the revelations which He has bestowed on His prophets": implying that the choice of the right way is open to everyone who is willing to avail himself of God's universal guidance. (Cf. a similar passage in 76:29-30.)


    peace
    Verse 11 Surah 41.

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Verse 11 Surah 41.

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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone View Post
    An un-educated Arab, will probably not be able to read at all to issue some abstract thought to very sophisticated text.. I have visited with some mighty ignorant folks in Saudi Arabia who may as well have been living in pre-Islamic Arabia...

    All I am asking is what the word youm's literal meaning is. does it have many literal meanings? Is an undefinite amount of time one of them?

    here are some verses about our solar system
    When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets (Kawakib) and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me."

    which speaks of 11 planets in our solar system with sun and moon a seperate ..
    If it weren't for the moon, I'd be impressed.

    In many different suras celestial bodies are given different names, I am sure are unprecedented in previous scriptures.. such as khunas, kawakib, tariq, najm, shams, qamar, etc
    I am excerpting this next piece from:
    Khunnas, kawakib, tariq (not taraiq), shams, qamar and najm, are the Quranic words for heavenly or celestial bodies. The Khunnas are like planets, but other than these they appear and disappear in alternating phases, the kawakib are the orbiting planets, najm is a star, tariq a very bright night-or morning-star, in fact a planet, like Venus. Shams is the sun and qamar the moon. These bodies are clearly distinguished by their character and roles in the Quran. .
    http://www.ummah.com/ifsa/pages/sect...my/astro5b.htm
    I don't know what other scriptures have to say about celestial bodies, it doesn't matter now, actually.

    Shall we dispute about the number of planets in our soalr system? No.
    Muslims may claim such disctinctions are miraculous, IMO they're just the opposite.. Thy indicate that Muhammad may have thought Venus is a star, didn't know the number of planets and I have yet to find out which celestial bodies are refered to as Khunnas.
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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint View Post

    All I am asking is what the word youm's literal meaning is. does it have many literal meanings? Is an undefinite amount of time one of them?
    Again depends on the context.. I can use youm with someone and mean an indefinite period of time!


    If it weren't for the moon, I'd be impressed.
    I don't see why?


    I don't know what other scriptures have to say about celestial bodies, it doesn't matter now, actually.
    It matters to Muslims, who have actually excelled in astronomy!

    Shall we dispute about the number of planets in our soalr system? No.
    Muslims may claim such disctinctions are miraculous, IMO they're just the opposite.. Thy indicate that Muhammad may have thought Venus is a star, didn't know the number of planets and I have yet to find out which celestial bodies are refered to as Khunnas.
    You can't dispute, because in fact you don't know how many planets there are.. recently pluto was demoted to non-planet, perhaps tomorrow one of the moon of jupiter will be promoted to a planet..
    Many people modern day think jupiter can be its own sun.. lots of articles out there.. the universe is still widely a mystery..

    You keep saying Muhammed (p), he didn't come with the book, if he did there would be error therein, it came from God, were it some other being, I would have had doubt.. but I don't...

    Time can only transcend to us, more of its miracles, which in fact never cease!

    peace
    Verse 11 Surah 41.

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Verse 11 Surah 41.

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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone View Post
    Again depends on the context.. I can use youm with someone and mean an indefinite period of time!
    Literally or metaphorically?
    I don't see why?
    Really?
    I asked you to proved a verse indicating that the Earth revolves around the sun.
    When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets (Kawakib) and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me."
    If it only mentioned the sun, it would imply in a way that the sun is connected to all the planets, that it is not common to the Earth only. However it mentions the moon, our moon only, despite the fact that there are other moons almost the size of Earth.
    See where I'm getting at?
    It matters to Muslims, who have actually excelled in astronomy!
    I don't understand.
    You can't dispute, because in fact you don't know how many planets there are.. recently pluto was demoted to non-planet, perhaps tomorrow one of the moon of jupiter will be promoted to a planet..
    Many people modern day think jupiter can be its own sun.. lots of articles out there.. the universe is still widely a mystery..
    I know, that's what I said "No"
    Although, with the latest definition of a planet, there are almost certainly only 8. By the old definition, there are much more, one of them being Pluto.

    You keep saying Muhammed (p), he didn't come with the book, if he did there would be error therein, it came from God, were it some other being, I would have had doubt.. but I don't...
    I think "..."'s are in place...

    Time can only transcend to us, more of its miracles, which in fact never cease!
    Yes, because most of them are rubbish.
    sorry.

    PS: Which celestial bodies are refered to as Khunnas?
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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint View Post
    Literally or metaphorically?
    Again, depends on the context and situation!
    Really?
    Really what?

    I asked you to proved a verse indicating that the Earth revolves around the sun.
    I told you, you need to read the Quran as a whole and not ask me to bring excerpts ( I myself am still learning).. other than that, you are not an exegetical scholar, as to subject any verses to scrutiny!

    When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets (Kawakib) and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me."
    If it only mentioned the sun, it would imply in a way that the sun is connected to all the planets, that it is not common to the Earth only. However it mentions the moon, our moon only, despite the fact that there are other moons almost the size of Earth.
    See where I'm getting at?
    No, I really don't!.. there are many meanings to that verse, the one most obvious being His siblings and Jacob P visiting him in awe and prostration when he held control over Egypt! which is in fact what happened in the end! You should read the whole sura.. other cryptic meanings to the verse, are subject to a million explanation!

    I don't understand.
    Don't understand what?

    I know, that's what I said "No"
    Although, with the latest definition of a planet, there are almost certainly only 8. By the old definition, there are much more, one of them being Pluto.
    How many solar systems do you know of are in existence? and how many do you know of our direct solar system? Again, no one knows what will be promoted or demoted in the next fifty years or so.. Neither of us is an astronmer! for now I'll take the Quran over an evolving science!


    I think "..."'s are in place...
    ???



    Yes, because most of them are rubbish.
    sorry.
    You may think so, millions of others don't-- by no means does your opinion upset me.. We walk different paths and I have already treaded on areas of doubt and drawn my conclusions.. surely no two people view something in the same exact way.. thus we part ways on what you deem rubbish and I deem providential!

    PS: Which celestial bodies are refered to as Khunnas?
    refer to page I have provided prior. I am sorry I am really pressed for time today..

    peace
    Verse 11 Surah 41.

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Verse 11 Surah 41.

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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone View Post
    Again, depends on the context and situation!

    Is its aeonic meaning ever literal or does one always have to refer to other verses? (such as the one about 1 day = 1000 years)

    Here's some english to arabic to english...
    َهَار اســــــــــــم ضِدّ لَيْل
    day , daytime
    http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidi...37;e4%e5%c7%d1
    This one is more like it:
    يَوْم اســــــــــــم 24 ساعَة
    today , day
    وَقْت
    point of time , period , time
    http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidi...b=%20%ed%e6%e3
    What is the literal maning of the word youm in the verses describing the creation?


    Don't understand what?
    format_quote Originally Posted by You
    format_quote Originally Posted by Me
    I don't know what other scriptures have to say about celestial bodies, it doesn't matter now, actually.
    It matters to Muslims, who have actually excelled in astronomy!
    This.

    How many solar systems do you know of are in existence? and how many do you know of our direct solar system? Again, no one knows what will be promoted or demoted in the next fifty years or so.. Neither of us is an astronmer! for now I'll take the Quran over an evolving science!
    Does the evrse apply to all solar systems in existence? Then it's way wrong, so far over 100 planets have been discovered in the Milky way alone...and there are probably billions.
    As I said, the number of planets depends on the definition of a planet so yeah, no one can really disprove the verse...
    I do however think only 8 planets exists by the current definition and I don't think new ones will be discovered, as the definition has become stricter and our solar system and its neighborhood rather well explored. As I said, the older definition covers more than 11 planets. But there might be a definition, that encompasses exactly 11 planets...

    ???
    I wanted to say I do not think the Quran is error-free.

    You may think so, millions of others don't-- by no means does your opinion upset me.. We walk different paths and I have already treaded on areas of doubt and drawn my conclusions.. surely no two people view something in the same exact way.. thus we part ways on what you deem rubbish and I deem providential!


    refer to page I have provided prior. I am sorry I am really pressed for time today..
    the page is the reason I posed the question..
    The Khunnas are like planets, but other than these they appear and disappear in alternating phases
    Last edited by Whatsthepoint; 02-08-2008 at 10:52 PM.
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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    You have posted in the first 'Nahar' not 'youm' with your first quote
    youm is well defined for you in your own 2nd quote as 'period' of time along with other defintions, thus, and I say this hopefully for the last time, it depends on the context of the text! to be compounded by the fact, as is in the Quran and cited prior, a 'day' for us isn't the same in God's measure.. there really can be no more argument left as to its meaning, short of folks who seek to give it, their own preferred meaning but in fact has no weight as far as understood by scholars!

    As for strict or loose interpretation, merely the last ten years have changed the definition of what we deem planets in our immediate solar system.. I have no doubt that will continue to change as time moves along!
    Whether obvious or cryptic.. The Quran is a sibylline book and IS infallible!



    فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالْخُنَّسِ {15}
    [Pickthal 81:15] Oh, but I call to witness the planets,

    الْجَوَارِ الْكُنَّسِ

    that recede (i.e. disappear during the day and appear during the night..

    none of the defintions are actually adequate.. to begin with the word 'fala' in the beginning of that sentence is in the negative, I find that no translator is able to find an adequate word to affirm in the negative.. it is as if to say 'I need not call you attention to, I need not swear by---


    * By "calling to witness" certain natural phenomena which are familiar to man because of their permanent recurrence, attention is drawn to the fact that what we call "laws of nature" are but the observable elements of God's plan of creation - a plan in which His revelations (referred to in this and the subsequent verses) play a decisive role: and so, by implication, the divine writ granted to Muhammad is as intrinsically "natural" as any other phenomenon, concrete or abstract, in the realm of God's creation.


    cheers
    Verse 11 Surah 41.

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Verse 11 Surah 41.

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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    [QUOTE]
    format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone View Post
    You have posted in the first 'Nahar' not 'youm' with your first quote
    youm is well defined for you in your own 2nd quote as 'period' of time along with other defintions, thus, and I say this hopefully for the last time, it depends on the context of the text! to be compounded by the fact, as is in the Quran and cited prior, a 'day' for us isn't the same in God's measure.. there really can be no more argument left as to its meaning, short of folks who seek to give it, their own preferred meaning but in fact has no weight as far as understood by scholars!
    Ok, and I ask for the last time, what is the literal (so without refering to other verses) meaning of the word in the verses describing the creation?

    As for strict or loose interpretation, merely the last ten years have changed the definition of what we deem planets in our immediate solar system.. I have no doubt that will continue to change as time moves along!
    It may.
    Whether obvious or cryptic.. The Quran is a sibylline book and IS infallible!
    It may be.

    فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِالْخُنَّسِ {15}
    [Pickthal 81:15] Oh, but I call to witness the planets,

    الْجَوَارِ الْكُنَّسِ

    that recede (i.e. disappear during the day and appear during the night..
    Why does the Quran make a distinction between orbiting planets (kawakib) and planets that "disappear during the day and appear during the night"(Khunnas)?
    First, I am not sure any planet is visible during the day, and second, all planets are orbiting planets...

    One question: why is it sometimes peace and sometimes cheers?
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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint View Post
    Ok, and I ask for the last time, what is the literal (so without refering to other verses) meaning of the word in the verses describing the creation?
    It isn't a word that I or most people use, there are many alternatives 'bokra' 'inaharda' 'sob7' 'ma'sa' 'fi khilal arba3a wa 3shreen sa3a'
    When something is meant for a very short period of time, you'll see it referred to as such, within the Quran itself. And I Quote


    كَأَنَّهُمْ يَوْمَ يَرَوْنَهَا لَمْ يَلْبَثُوا إِلَّا عَشِيَّةً أَوْ ضُحَاهَا {46}
    [Pickthal 79:46] On the day when they behold it, it will be as if they had but tarried for an evening or the morn thereof.
    common knowledge again, that the 'day of judgement' will not be a 'day' at all.. The period of standing will last for 50,000 years.. I reference you to http://www.islamworlduk.com/scripts/...a.asp?extra=13
    However, and the verse ends, when they see it (as in hell) they'll feel as if they have tarried for an evening or the morn thereof.. very specific, '3ashytan, aw da'7aha' this you can get technical about because it is very specific.
    Youm means a day or period.. a day not necessairly by 24 hour standards..




    Why does the Quran make a distinction between orbiting planets (kawakib) and planets that "disappear during the day and appear during the night"(Khunnas)?
    First, I am not sure any planet is visible during the day, and second, all planets are orbiting planets...
    I am not sure, there in fact many different names and I don't think they mean the same thing..you may give me a brief while to check it but I doubt it is a mere language.. I am truly not sure what they are..
    let me call to your attention that people often refer to 'paradise' as Janna, meaning heaven, eden whatever you call paradise, but the actual literal meaning of the word, is that which is hidden from sight.. you come to learn that when you see derivatives of the word like jinoon (craziness) or (jinn) .. one there is a state where we dont exactly know what has ailed the mind, (hidden) as well as Jinn (which are creatures also hidden from sight) so.. there is more to the words than just knowing Arabic.. I suspect they are celestial bodies that we may or may not have identified.. Allah knows best.. of this matter I'd PM someone like Ansar Al 'Adl, he seems like an exegetical expert. I don't wish to mislead you, with something well beyond my sphere of expertise!

    One question: why is it sometimes peace and sometimes cheers?
    depends on, whether I am feeling peaceful or cheerful

    now I feel awkward on how to close this encounter..
    Verse 11 Surah 41.

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Verse 11 Surah 41.

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    Re: Verse 11 Surah 41.

    format_quote Originally Posted by Eve Persephone View Post
    depends on, whether I am feeling peaceful or cheerful

    now I feel awkward on how to close this encounter..
    Rofl

    Otherwise, it seems the day-aeon dispute has been solved... and we'll never agree on the other issues, so I see is no point in keeping this thread open..
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