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    Eeman's Avatar
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    Post Ahadith

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    Salam alaikum

    The word "Salat" and its derivates occur in the Scripture over 70 times and is emphasized by God Almighty as a critical aspect for the spiritual development and progress of believers.



    According to the Sunnis and Shia, the Salat was decreed by God to the prophet Mohammed during the night of ascension, in which God decreed 50 Salats per day, only to be reduced to 5 Salats per day due to pleading of the prophet.



    While the average Sunni or Shai may not have any problem with the above tale, it is not only blasphemous that God would not know what to decree upon His creation, but it is also historically false as God has showed us many times that all the prophets prior to Mohammed knew Salat and carried it out along with their families and followers (see Qur'an 6:162, 10:87, 11:87, 14:37, 19:31, 31:17).



    What is Salat?



    Not only do the Sunnis and Shia distort the truth regarding the origin of Salat, but they also confuse and confound its purpose by teaching that salat is a "ritual prayer" decreed by God to take place at specific times during the day and that non-adherence to this prayer will result in Hell fire.



    While there is no doubt that we are commanded to "hear & obey" any and all commands from our Lord (see 2:285), we are at the same time commanded not to uphold that which we have not verified ourselves (see 17:36).



    According to the Qur'an, the correct Salat is a vehicle by which help is sought and given and by which people are assisted to avoid evil and vice:



    "And seek help through patience, and through the Salat. It is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble" (2:45)



    "Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the Salat, for the Salat prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do." (29:45)



    Can those who carry out the "ritual prayer" claim to have achieved such goals?



    The closest match for the word "Salat" is the Arabic root word "Silla" which, in its most basic form, means: 'to link/connect.' Also, unlike "prayer," which is one-way in nature, the meaning of "link/connection" implies a more encompassing two-way relationship, where not only are prayers made, but also answers and guidance given.



    Therefore, the word Salat, using a more accurate and correct definition based on its usage in the Qur'an, would best be termed as:



    "a communion with God"



    However, the above needs to be qualified by stating that God chooses not to speak in person with most humans, and therefore the communion with God will always be through a 'barrier' of sorts:



    "And it is not for any human being that God would speak to him, except through inspiration, or from behind a barrier, or by sending a messenger to inspire whom He wills by His leave. He is Most High, Wise." (42:51)



    How to carry out the Salat?



    To commune with the Almighty requires certain steps and preparations that God has ordained with His knowledge. It must also be remembered that since humankind have been tainted by the forbidden tree and expelled from the higher plain of earthly paradise, then we are not worthy to approach the majesty and holiness of our Lord without carrying out His instructions and conditions.



    Timing for Salat



    According to the Quran, the times for which communion can be carried out are the hours around dusk and around dawn.



    "And you shall hold the Salat at the two edges of the day, during the near parts of the night*. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember." (11:114)



    "You shall hold the Salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed." (17:78)



    * The above verse is normally translated as referring to three Salat times (the two edges of the day and a part of the night), however, the Arabic word used is "zulfan" which is a plural form meaning "the near parts" (see 34:37, 39:3 for the singular use of the word). The correct meaning therefore is the two edges of the day, moving towards the adjacent parts of the night.



    The time frame that is being looked at for the Salat is around 45-60 minutes (from the beginning of sundown until the darkness of the night, and, from the dark part of the night until the first rays of light appear).



    A couple of observations that can be made regarding these times are:

    the ease with which such time-frame is remembered simply by having the marker of sundown and sunset;

    the tranquility that these two times posses both in terms of reduced sunlight, as well as the free-time that would be found being before the beginning of a work day or after its end.

    Purification/Cleansing of the Body



    Another step to holding the Salat is one of ritual washing/cleaning of the body using either water or clean dry soil:



    "O you who believe, if you rise to hold the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative." (5:6)



    Be of a Clear Mind



    "O you who believe, do not approach the Salat while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving." (4:43)



    Be in Groups or Alone



    "And if you are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution." (4:102)



    "The angels called to him whilst he was standing, Yusali (communing), in the temple enclosure: 'God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright.'" (3:39)



    Be in a Stationary Standing Position

    "Maintain the Salawaat, a balanced Salat; and stand dutiful for God. But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know." (2:238-239)

    The normal mode for achieving the Salat is to be in a stationary standing position. However, if there are impeding circumstances, then a person may attempt to achieve the Salat while walking or riding.



    Call on God's Attributes, Open with a Specific Prayer



    "Say: 'Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.' And do not be too loud in making your Salat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between." (17:110)



    "And say: 'Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.' And glorify Him greatly." (17:111)



    From the start Salat, a person is to seek God's help by calling on His many attributes. This calling on God may be continued throughout the process as and when required.



    Recite From the Scripture, Use an Audible Voice



    "Say: 'Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.' And do not be too loud in making your Salat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between." (17:110)



    "Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the Salat, for the Salat prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do." (29:45)



    "You shall hold the Salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed." (17:78)



    The words from the Scripture are the "key" to helping a person achieve the state of Salat. Various phrases may be read out from the Scripture, or various verses, each depending on the need and situation of the person conducting the Salat. Some verses are in the form of a plea, while others are an invocation upon God to assist and to protect from the devil and his whispers/influence. There is no right or wrong in which verses to select. Each verse from the Quran has its own unique aspects and its own unique purpose.



    Ask and You Shall Receive

    "Surely, those who have said: 'Our Lord is God,' then they did right, the angels will descend upon them: 'You shall not fear, nor shall you grieve. Rejoice in the good news of Paradise that you have been promised. We are your allies in this worldly life and in the Hereafter. In it you will have anything your soul desires, and in it you will have anything you ask for.'" (41:30-31)

    God has pledged that He will answer the calls of those who seek Him alone. To support such a statement, the reader is invited to examine the verse below which speaks of God sending the angels to answer specific requests/prayers and to notice the emphasis on the act that is being carried out while such response is received:

    "It was then that Zachariah called on his Lord, he said: 'My Lord, grant me from You a good progeny, You are the hearer of prayers.' The angels called to him whilst he was standing, Yusali (communing), in the temple enclosure: 'God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright..'" (3:38-39)

    End the Salat by Kneeling and Prostrating



    Once the person has communed with the Almighty, then the communion is to be ended through a physical prostration, which, by default, would involve kneeling to achieve the position of prostration.



    "And if you are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have [B]prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet communed come and commune with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution." (4:102)



    Believers Vs. Submitters

    While there is no doubt that any person may attempt to commune with God as he/she wishes, a study of the Scripture reveals that the main people who will be successful at making the communion on a regular basis are ones who have advanced to the stage of being Mumins (believers).

    “O you who believe, do not approach the Salat while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.” (The Message 4:43)



    “So when you are done making the Salat, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides; then, when you are relieved, you shall honor the Salat. Indeed, the Salat for the believers is a timed decree.” (The Message 4:103)



    While most people may not realize the difference, the Scripture has made a clear distinction between ‘Muslims’ (those who simply have submitted to God) and ‘Mumins’ (those who have advanced and strive with their wealth and lives in the sake of God):



    “The Nomads said: ‘We believe.’ Say: ‘You have not believed; but you should Say: 'We have submitted (Aslamna)’, for belief has not yet entered into your hearts.’ If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful. Believers (Muninoon) are those who believe in God and His messenger, then they became without doubt, and they strive with their money and their lives in the cause of God. These are the truthful ones.” (49:14-15)



    Therefore, if you are not able to commune with God, do not despair, the communion will happen eventually when you have calmed your mind through patience and have nourished your soul through good works.




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Beware!

    The benefits from being able to commune with the One true God and receive direct feedback and/or answers to prayers cannot be emphasized enough. It is for this reason that we must all be aware that the devil and his followers have this vehicle in their sights and that severing the communion with God and rendering the act to a an empty ritual has and will continue to be a priority item (cutting us off at the source):

    "The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the Salat. Will you be deterred?" (5:91)



    "Then generations came after them who lost the Salat, and followed desires. They will find their consequences." (The Message 19:59)



    "Those who believe, then reject, then believe, then reject, then they increase in rejection; God was neither to forgive them nor to guide them to the path." (4:137)

    Now that we have found the Salat once again, will we discard our ability to commune with God and turn the Salat into mindless empty rituals as the generations before us have done?

    Will we be deterred?

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    Eeman's Avatar
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    Re: Arrival of Imam Mahdi

    I am really sorry i apologise Abu sayad i am new to using forums but the above is proof to your question "can you please find for me a verse in the Qur'an that sets out how we are to pray?"

    well there is not just a verse there are many verses.

    Salam alaikum

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    Post Re: Arrival of Imam Mahdi


    Only an fool thows away over one thousand years of Islamic learning to interpret the Qur'an themselves...
    Ahadith


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    Eeman's Avatar
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    Re: Arrival of Imam Mahdi

    Quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian View Post
    It's not an obligatory duty to wait for Imam Al Mahdi right?

    Unless if you're a Shiite..

    I think we should do our work as usual...and be near to God.

    We need God's guidance more than an Al Mahdi right?

    But I believe that some day both Al Mahdi and Jesus will come and rule the world...

    Well...that's just my opinion.
    If it is not obligatory to wait for imam mahdi then why believe in him altogether? If it was a part of the true message of Allah swt then I am ver certain He swt would have made it known to His slaves.

    ****e sunnis and many other sects are nothing but sects, man made sects because unfortunately no matter how much we might not like it it is easier to follow the way of shaytaan by easily being misled and tempted than to hold fast on the path of Allah swt. Sects have and never has had anything to do with religion, it is nothing but mere politics created by mankind and only mankind. the message is simple and clear there is only One God and there is nothing before Him nor After Him, He begots not nor was He begotton and there is no one co-equal and comparable unto Him. So follow that God and submit to Him, praise and glorify Him and follow His commands for you to reach the everlasting destination of Jannah.

    by doing our work and being near to God we need to make the distinction between whats true, the wisdom that He swt Himself has revealed to us and what is not which is hear say stories about some imam that will come to save us.

    We need no reliance upon anyone or thing but Allah swt.
    True guidance comes from Him and only Him.

    everyone has opinions and beliefs but in order to accomplish our mission in this temporary life we need to look at verything with logic and sound proof from the Holy Qur'an itself otherwise your doing your own soul wrong by believing things that are not true and being misguided about the true religion of God.

    I do apologise if i have said anything to insult or offend your beliefs or opinions.

    salam alaikum.

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    Re: Arrival of Imam Mahdi

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishman View Post

    Only an fool thows away over one thousand years of Islamic learning to interpret the Qur'an themselves...
    Dear brother

    I have not tried to intepret the Holy Qur'an myself, Alhumdullilah Allah swt has bestowed upon me many favours and blessings, eyes to see and intellect to read. the holy Qur'an is self explanatory it is a message to mankind no matter wha race intellect gender or age you are.

    you do not need to go to a scholar to ask him "oh dear scholar what is the book called the Qur'an would u please read it for me and interpret it and tell me how i should understand it and implement it in my life?"

    It is plain and i have given many references to the Qur'an itself and i'm sorry but u can call me a fool for it or whatever you may please (i pray Allah swt for your forgiveness) but trying to dispute against words of the Almighty Himself is nothing but a foolish act in itself.

    salam alaikum.

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    Umar001's Avatar
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    Re: Arrival of Imam Mahdi

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeman View Post
    If it is not obligatory to wait for imam mahdi then why believe in him altogether? If it was a part of the true message of Allah swt then I am ver certain He swt would have made it known to His slaves.
    He has made it known. Else how would we speak of it today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeman View Post
    ****e sunnis and many other sects are nothing but sects, man made sects because unfortunately no matter how much we might not like it it is easier to follow the way of shaytaan by easily being misled and tempted than to hold fast on the path of Allah swt. Sects have and never has had anything to do with religion, it is nothing but mere politics created by mankind and only mankind. the message is simple and clear there is only One God and there is nothing before Him nor After Him, He begots not nor was He begotton and there is no one co-equal and comparable unto Him. So follow that God and submit to Him, praise and glorify Him and follow His commands for you to reach the everlasting destination of Jannah.
    There are requirements for an individual to follow, an individual must know the path before he can follow it, and he must also take the action else he will stand still.

    Some know the path but they do not follow it, they are the likes of the bad Jews, the ones who encour the anger of God.

    Others don't know the path and just walk, they are the likes of the Christians, who are misguided.

    You have to do both, taking some ayat and putting them together to conform to the way people pray and then saying we didn't learn the prayer from noone but the Qur'an is silly. There are hundred and one problems with your atttempt in reconstructing the prayer above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeman View Post
    by doing our work and being near to God we need to make the distinction between whats true, the wisdom that He swt Himself has revealed to us and what is not which is hear say stories about some imam that will come to save us.
    What is your methodology for making the distinction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeman View Post

    everyone has opinions and beliefs but in order to accomplish our mission in this temporary life we need to look at verything with logic and sound proof from the Holy Qur'an itself otherwise your doing your own soul wrong by believing things that are not true and being misguided about the true religion of God.

    I do apologise if i have said anything to insult or offend your beliefs or opinions.

    salam alaikum.
    One also has to establish the place of logic and what is sound proof. The Qur'an itself points to the Sunnah, as seen in the incident of Ibn Mas'ud. That the Prophet's teachings are copied by his followers is what logic demands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeman View Post
    The holy Qur'an is self explanatory it is a message to mankind no matter wha race intellect gender or age you are.
    Out of curiosity what does this verse speak of:

    Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeman View Post
    you do not need to go to a scholar to ask him "oh dear scholar what is the book called the Qur'an would u please read it for me and interpret it and tell me how i should understand it and implement it in my life?"
    That is the most illogical statement so far, in any field of knowledge, wether religous or worldly, this happens. What you have said is as absurd as me, a lay man, stating I do not need to go to a Doctor of Medicine/Pharmacy and get my medicine, rather, I can make my own medicine.

    Of course not, we go to the individuals who have studied the texts, whether a science medical book or a religious book, because they have more experience and have more knowledge on the matter.

    Wa Allahu Ta'ala A'lam.

    Wa Alaykum Salam.
    Ahadith

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

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    Re: Ahadith

    1#

    While there is no doubt that we are commanded to "hear & obey" any and all commands from our Lord (see 2:285), we are at the same time commanded not to uphold that which we have not verified ourselves (see 17:36).
    So we are commanded to uphold all that God commands us, as long as we can see that He has commanded it?

    2#

    To commune with the Almighty requires certain steps and preparations that God has ordained with His knowledge. It must also be remembered that since humankind have been tainted by the forbidden tree and expelled from the higher plain of earthly paradise, then we are not worthy to approach the majesty and holiness of our Lord without carrying out His instructions and conditions.
    Do you mean that we are suffering a spiritual stain from the actions/burdens of another person? Because of Adam's alayhi salam's actions my reletionship with God is suffering? SubahanAllah! I thought;

    That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins) of another

    3#

    According to the Quran, the times for which communion can be carried out are the hours around dusk and around dawn.
    How many prayers?

    4#

    "You shall hold the Salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed." (17:78)
    017.078
    YUSUFALI: Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.
    PICKTHAL: Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.
    SHAKIR: Keep up prayer from the declining of the sun till the darkness of the night and the morning recitation; surely the morning recitation is witnessed.

    It states from the declining of the sun, the sun starts declining after reaching zenith, is one expected to pray from 1ish until some day upto 10 at night? Also, what morning recitation? So everyone must recite Qur'an in the morning, it is obligatory?

    5#

    How many prayers are there?

    6#

    "Say: 'Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.' And do not be too loud in making your Salat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between." (17:110)
    What makes you think that it is saying Call on God... in the prayer, it just says AND, this could be like me saying, 'Do x.y.z. and do a.b.c' I could be giving two totally different rulings, what conbines them, what makes you ASSUME, that it is saying pray calling on God..'? Same with the next verse cited.

    7#

    Once the person has communed with the Almighty, then the communion is to be ended through a physical prostration, which, by default, would involve kneeling to achieve the position of prostration.
    No, for one to postrate it does not neccesitate kneeling. One can postrate bending his back with his hands landing first. Furthermore there are different methods of postration, which type is it?

    http://www.naorc.org/mjl/photos/ordi...e%20Saints.JPG

    http://www.franciscanfriars.com/Arti...rostration.jpg

    http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...icial%26sa%3DN

    http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/504...4720851_rs.jpg


    8#

    “So when you are done making the Salat, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides; then, when you are relieved, you shall honor the Salat. Indeed, the Salat for the believers is a timed decree.” (The Message 4:103)
    Why is the WA translated as THEN, and not AND? Do you remember God by standing, and then you do it by sitting and then on your sides? If so how long does each take, I mean, how long do you remember him for standing, and then how long for the sitting and then how long for the lying down? Is it the same for each or different?

    9#

    Unlike your translation these three for example speak about danger,

    004.103
    YUSUFALI: When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah's praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times.
    PICKTHAL: When ye have performed the act of worship, remember Allah, standing, sitting and reclining. And when ye are in safety, observe proper worship. Worship at fixed times hath been enjoined on the believers.
    SHAKIR: Then when you have finished the prayer, remember Allah standing and sitting and reclining; but when you are secure (from danger) keep up prayer; surely prayer is a timed ordinance for the believers.

    So when you are in danger do you do this prayer and then out of danger do a different one? If so what are the differences?

    10#

    "Then generations came after them who lost the Salat, and followed desires. They will find their consequences." (The Message 19:59)

    What is their consequence?
    Ahadith

    The path is long but I hope we meet,
    After the grave and the Day, in paradise in bliss upon a reclined seat.

    A traveler traveling - travelled from shirk to tawheed,
    If I'm remembered for anything - let it be the Mercy I seek.

    Your Bro. Abu Hurayra, al-Habeshi

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    Ibn Abi Ahmed's Avatar
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    Re: Ahadith

    Sister,

    First of all, I find it very deceptive that you would go to a website, and copy (in entirety!) the contents and paste it here and then present it forth as your argument. To me this indicates that either I) you are unaware of how a discussion between two individuals takes place or II) that you actually have no intention to learn or engage in a dialogue and are satisfied with what you follow regardless of whether it is true or not.

    Secondly, this action of yours proves to me, after debating with a number of hadeeth rejectors in the past, that beyond a shadow of a doubt, the mentality behind hadeeth rejection is the same. An individual comes across a hadeeth that he doesn't understand or doesn't make sense to him, and besides taking the common sense approach of asking the specialists in the field (as he would do in any other subject!!), he decides to just reject based on his own lack of understanding. He then proceeds online, finds a few other people that have gotten caught in the same fitnah and they strengthen each others doubts whilst never occuring to one of them that the problem might just not be in the hadeeth, but the incorrect way they approach it. You find that at the end of the day, not a single one of them have even the most basic understanding of Uloom al Hadeeth, which in and of itself speaks volumes about their sad state. It is like a layman giving medical advice without any formal education in medicine, he is misled and is misleading others. May Allaah protect the Ummah.

    Because of the aforementioned reasons, I will not bother myself with responding to your cut and paste article. I'll respond to the other points a little later Insha'Allaah. However, i want to ask you one question (in addition to my last which I still await the proper answer to):

    • Explain to me how Allaah has protected the Qur'an. Is there a book kept locked in a fortress somewhere? How was the Qur'an preserved?

    Please do not bypass and ignore my questions.

    Last edited by Ibn Abi Ahmed; 06-25-2008 at 08:27 PM.
    Ahadith

    Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun

    "It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl

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    Re: Ahadith

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad View Post
    Sister,


    • Explain to me how Allaah has protected the Qur'an. Is there a book kept locked in a fortress somewhere? How was the Qur'an preserved?

    Please do not bypass and ignore my questions.

    Dear Brother,

    If the Qur'an was not protected then why would Mohammad (saw) be the seal of the prophets and bring down to us the final revelation.
    why was the torah replaced by the injeel? then why was the injeel replaced by the Qur'an which i am sure as a muslim brother you would know and believe is the last book and the true divine message and mercy of Allah swt.

    How Allah swt protects the Qur'an only Allah swt knows!!
    You might as well ask me next if Allah swt took it to the fortress Himself and locked it up and what was He wearing whilst He was doing it!! (Astaghfirullah)

    Brother all i know is I read and i read and yet I read again the holy Qur'an
    now why i said that the Qur'an is guarded and protected by Allah swt is because He has mentioned it Himself in His book. Now unless your a rashid khalifa follower you would agree but if u believe in his theory of the mathematical miracle of the Qur'an then you would argue with me about how people i.e. scholars have tampered with the holy Qur'an and added their own verses to it.
    and to be honest with you thats not a debate i would want to get into. khalasss.

    Qur'an 15:9
    Lo! We, even We, reveal the Reminder, and lo! We verily are its Guardian. Picktall
    We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). Yusuf Ali
    Surely We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian. MH Shakir
    Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'ân) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption) Hilali and Khan.

    Qur'an 56:
    056.077 That (this) is indeed a noble Qur'an
    056.078 In a Book kept hidden
    056.079 Which none toucheth save the purified,
    056.080 A revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. Pickthall

    77. That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable,
    78. In Book well-guarded,
    79. Which none shall touch but those who are clean:
    80. A Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds. Yusuf Ali


    56.77] Most surely it is an honored Quran,
    [56.78] In a book that is protected
    [56.79] None shall touch it save the purified ones.
    [56.80] A revelation by the Lord of the worlds. MH Shakir


    77. That (this) is indeed an honourable recital (the Noble Qur'ân).
    78. In a Book well-guarded (with Allâh in the heaven i.e. Al-Lauh Al-Mahfûz).
    79. Which (that Book with Allâh) none can touch but the purified (i.e. the angels).
    80. A Revelation (this Qur'ân) from the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists). Hilali and Khan.

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    Re: Ahadith

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeman View Post
    Dear Brother,
    Sister,
    If the Qur'an was not protected then why would Mohammad (saw) be the seal of the prophets and bring down to us the final revelation.
    why was the torah replaced by the injeel? then why was the injeel replaced by the Qur'an which i am sure as a muslim brother you would know and believe is the last book and the true divine message and mercy of Allah swt.
    I think you've misunderstood me. I never said that the Qur'an was not protected. I was asking you HOW it was protected.

    How Allah swt protects the Qur'an only Allah swt knows!!
    This is the core issue that I was trying to get at. Allaah has protected the Qur'an through very simple means.

    Allaah has not kept the Qur'an in a fortress or anything of the sort, rather he has preserved the Qur'an in the hearts of MEN. Please read the following verse:

    بَلْ هُوَ آيَاتٌ بَيِّنَاتٌ فِي صُدُورِ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْعِلْمَ

    29:49 Rather, the Qur'an is distinct verses within the breasts of those who have been given knowledge.

    This verse kills two birds with one stone. We learn two things from this verse:

    1. The Qur'an is preserved in the hearts of men; i.e. Memorization.
    2. Who are these men that preserve the Qur'an? He refers to them in this verse as 'Utul 'Ilm' - i.e. Those people who have been given knowledge.

    Now, let me explain to you why these two points are crucial.

    Point 1 - The Qur'an is an oral tradition, memorized and passed down via chains of narrations. Such chains are present even today, and I personally know of people that have them all the way back to the Prophet saw. What is the relevance of this with hadeeth? Well it just so happens that the ahadeeth were preserved in this exact same method, via chains of narrations known as Isnaad. Therefore, with this established, the question should not be: 'Does the Qur'an give authority to the hadeeth?' but rathar 'Are the hadeeth authentically preserved via these chains of narrations as the Qur'an has been preserved?'.

    Point 2 - One of the methadologies of the hadeeth rejectors is to attack the scholars that have memorized, saved, and authenticated the ahadeeth by saying "How can we put our trust in men?". However, if one were to read this verse, specifically the underlined portion, Allaah has made it clear that it is the people of knowledge that have preserved the Qur'an in their memories. And this verse is not the only verse where Allaah praises the people of knowledge (i.e. scholars). You can refer to 3:7, and 35:28 (here He explicitly says 'Ulema'). So this again is exactly the same way the ahadeeth are preserved. Therefore, to say that the Qur'an is preserved and the ahadeeth are not, when they both are using the same means of preservation is an absurd and inconsistent claim.

    So the conclusion is: the question is not whether ahadeeth are preserved or sanctioned by the Qur'an - it is: 'Are the hadeeth that are classed as sahih really so?' and to anyone that has studied the hadeeth sciences, the answer is a resounding YES!

    Brother all i know is I read and i read and yet I read again the holy Qur'an
    now why i said that the Qur'an is guarded and protected by Allah swt is because He has mentioned it Himself in His book.
    We have no disagreement here

    Now unless your a rashid khalifa follower you would agree but if u believe in his theory of the mathematical miracle of the Qur'an then you would argue with me about how people i.e. scholars have tampered with the holy Qur'an and added their own verses to it.
    Are you aware that the concept of hadeeth rejection was actually started by Rashad Khalifa and is kept alive by his followers known as the Submitters (whose site you copied and pasted from the article about Salah)??!
    Ahadith

    Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun

    "It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl

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    Re: Ahadith

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad View Post
    Sister,

    Are you aware that the concept of hadeeth rejection was actually started by Rashad Khalifa and is kept alive by his followers known as the Submitters (whose site you copied and pasted from the article about Salah)??!
    Dear brother abu sayyad...

    assumption is the mother of all mess ups.
    please do not assume i copied and pasted that from any site. in fact it was a email that a friend of mine had sent to me.

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    Re: Ahadith

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeman View Post
    Dear brother abu sayyad...

    assumption is the mother of all mess ups.
    please do not assume i copied and pasted that from any site. in fact it was a email that a friend of mine had sent to me.
    Which comes from their website Ukhti. I would post the link here, but the forum rules prohibit the posting of inauthentic links.

    I await your response to each of my points Insha'Allaah (in your own time).

    Ahadith

    Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun

    "It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl

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    Re: Ahadith

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad View Post
    Sister,

    Now, let me explain to you why these two points are crucial.

    Point 1 - The Qur'an is an oral tradition, memorized and passed down via chains of narrations. Such chains are present even today, and I personally know of people that have them all the way back to the Prophet saw. What is the relevance of this with hadeeth? Well it just so happens that the ahadeeth were preserved in this exact same method, via chains of narrations known as Isnaad. Therefore, with this established, the question should not be: 'Does the Qur'an give authority to the hadeeth?' but rathar 'Are the hadeeth authentically preserved via these chains of narrations as the Qur'an has been preserved?'.

    Point 2 - One of the methadologies of the hadeeth rejectors is to attack the scholars that have memorized, saved, and authenticated the ahadeeth by saying "How can we put our trust in men?". However, if one were to read this verse, specifically the underlined portion, Allaah has made it clear that it is the people of knowledge that have preserved the Qur'an in their memories. And this verse is not the only verse where Allaah praises the people of knowledge (i.e. scholars). You can refer to 3:7, and 35:28 (here He explicitly says 'Ulema'). So this again is exactly the same way the ahadeeth are preserved. Therefore, to say that the Qur'an is preserved and the ahadeeth are not, when they both are using the same means of preservation is an absurd and inconsistent claim.

    So the conclusion is: the question is not whether ahadeeth are preserved or sanctioned by the Qur'an - it is: 'Are the hadeeth that are classed as sahih really so?' and to anyone that has studied the hadeeth sciences, the answer is a resounding YES!
    Ok fine now let me do just that of what you accused me of earlier on about copying and pasting cos i think you should have a read at this article which is from the people of rashid khalifa who go as to arguing the same point as you are about how the qur'an has been guarded and preserved. Ok LOL! article is too long so if you ever have time InshaAllah go and have a read
    with that point i cannot disagree.

    But saying that it just makes you think If Allah swt has said and mentioned in the Qur'an that He's message is guarded and preserved then where can you make the assumption that the hadith and sunnah of the prophet (saw) has been guarded and preserved by the Almighty too?

    you can make the argument very clear about the Qur'an and you can give Qur'anic reference to it but where does it say in the Quran that the hadith and sunnah of the prophet (saw) is being guarded and preserved to? it just seems to me that you are making assumptions there.
    Last edited by IB-Staff; 06-26-2008 at 02:17 AM. Reason: Inauthentic link removed. Please check forum rules.

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    Re: Ahadith

    do you believe rashid khalifa was a prophet?
    Ahadith

    each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
    question authority

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    Re: Ahadith

    --------------- is a Quran only sect and a very deviant new sect...

    Sob7an Allah

    this is from suret al'moemnoon.. I hope you take heed dear sister, before it is too late

    (٥٢) فَتَقَطَّعُوٓاْ أَمۡرَهُم بَيۡنَہُمۡ زُبُرً۬ا*ۖ كُلُّ حِزۡبِۭ بِمَا لَدَيۡہِمۡ فَرِحُونَ (٥٣) فَذَرۡهُمۡ فِى غَمۡرَتِهِمۡ حَتَّىٰ حِينٍ (٥٤)
    But they (mankind) have broken their religion among them into sects, each sect rejoicing in its tenets. (53) So leave them in their error till a time. (54)


    Ahadith

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him


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    Re: Ahadith

    Quote Originally Posted by snakelegs View Post
    do you believe rashid khalifa was a prophet?
    Yeah i do and i am saba (the queen of sheba)

    (its a joke please do not take offence)

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    Re: Ahadith

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeman View Post
    Ok fine now let me do just that of what you accused me of earlier on about copying and pasting cos i think you should have a read at this article which is from the people of rashid khalifa who go as to arguing the same point as you are about how the qur'an has been guarded and preserved. Ok LOL! article is too long so if you ever have time InshaAllah go and have a read
    with that point i cannot disagree.
    I am sorry, but you lost me. I thought we agreed that the Qur'an is preserved?

    Please do not dodge my question. Are you aware that this Rashad Khalifa is the source of this hadeeth-rejection from who you are taking your arguments from? I find it amazing that on one side you are saying that you don't believe and follow him, yet your arguments have their roots in his ideology?!

    Please bear in mind that you will not be allowed to post articles from their sites, especially these inauthentic ones. You will have to articulate your arguments yourself.

    But saying that it just makes you think If Allah swt has said and mentioned in the Qur'an that He's message is guarded and preserved then where can you make the assumption that the hadith and sunnah of the prophet (saw) has been guarded and preserved by the Almighty too?
    How can you make the assumption that they be not preserved, when the methodology of both preservations is the same? To be consistent in this argument, the hadeeth rejector would have to reject the Qur'an BY DEFAULT because his core argument is that the Ahadeeth are not preserved. However, as I have proven in my last post, the Qur'an and hadeeth were preserved in exactly the same manner. You yourself iterated the misconception rampant amongst hadeeth rejectors earlier when you said "but how can people believe in sayings or ways of how the prophet saw lived from sources that came about 300 - 400 years AFTER his death?"

    I hope you took the time to read the link I left you.

    you can make the argument very clear about the Qur'an and you can give Qur'anic reference to it but where does it say in the Quran that the hadith and sunnah of the prophet (saw) is being guarded and preserved to? it just seems to me that you are making assumptions there.
    I dislike to repeat myself in discussions. I said earlier:
    It is complete. It is a Book of Guidance. It is not a book that details for the Muslims how to apply the laws and commandments it sets out within it. It gives this command to the Messenger explicitly in many places in the Qur'an.

    16:44 And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear [LI TUBAYYINA] to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.

    The Qur'an does not contain these quotes etc of when the Messenger made "clear" to the people what has been revealed to them, i.e. the Qur'an. Therefore, by default these have to be somewhere else and they have to preserved because they are the explanations of the Qur'an and part of the reason why the Messenger was sent.
    Now, please respond back to each of my arguments and points collectively, in their context, without picking through them to respond to a single point here and there. Jazakillah Khayr.

    Last edited by Ibn Abi Ahmed; 06-26-2008 at 01:35 AM.
    Ahadith

    Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun

    "It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl

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    Re: Ahadith

    This thread has gone a bit too far in the direction of being a discussion beyond the abilities of any of us here.

    Rather then running the risk of misinformation being promoted or material being copied and pasted and presentend as personal opinions it is best to stop the discussion here and advice members to seek the advice of scholars, not rely upon forums.

    :
    Ahadith




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