Prophet's marriage with Hazrat Ayesha. Need help

format_quote Originally Posted by Rasema

We are speaking about a Prophet of Allah and not any man, so your argument in asking us, at this period of time, if we would marry a young 6 old girl is not valid. Thus He,saws, had an exception in certain areas.Besides, who would marry a six year old? Was it for His,saws, benefit. Have you no sence?

I would give all my daughters to the Pophet of Allah. In an instant.

Quote:Karl
Originally Posted by AbdullahSyed
If by child marriage you are refering to Aisha R.a. marrying Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) then yes this is sanctioned by Allah. But as far as Muslims marrying women at young age. Shaykh Anwar Al Awlaki says this ruling is only for the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) not the other men.


You are completely right that child marriage is sanctioned by Allah, but what I do object to is any such deceptive claims about it only being granted Allah's ratification solely and exclusively to Prophet Muhammed (PBUH). Asserting that "what was good for Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) is not a good model for the common man to follow" is clearly an apologetic cop-out tactic to try and repackage and politically correctify Islam to be more "user friendly" with the contemporary West. Such claims that only Muhammed himself (PBUH) should follow Allah's intentions can only be tantamount to heresy.

It is utterly preposterous to suggest that a prophet should lead by double standards and hypocrisy. This is because these are amongst the greatest sins against Allah. A prophet is meant to LEAD BY EXAMPLE, NOT by hypocrisy, double standards and special privileges! It is only patently logical that if child marriage WAS hypothetically considered "haram" for the "common man", then Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) simply would NOT have married Aisha. Why? Well because he would have been well aware that the common man would have been closely observing his paragon and trying to emulate it. He would not have wanted to risk giving the "wrong" message to his followers, particularly simple followers who could easily have misconceived his "privileged haram" to be halal instead. Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) was egalitarian and he didn't consider himself to be more deserving of privileges than anyone else. He was constantly stating that he was no more than the messenger of Allah, he did NOT consider himself to be privileged like some self deifying Pharaoh or group of self privileged hypocrites such as the Pharisees.

You attack my sense, yet muslims have different opinions???

And Mohammad had 11 wives, NOT the 4 wives of the koran???

If there is anything that can put me to sleep faster than hearing someone talk about their latest adventures on Twitter, its this question!

There were many things the prophet was attacked on during his lifetime; His beliefs were ridiculed, he was treated with contempt, and some people were spiteful just for the sake of it!

One thing he was never questioned or confronted about however, was his marriage to Aisha! Not by the pagans, the Jews, or even the Christians at that time!

The question is a trap, and one that Muslims fall into by the masses.

People are a product of their environments, and the cultural norms have moved, such that marriage to children is frowned severely upon, with good cause too! Part of the reason for this, is of course most stories you hear about adult-child relationships are that of an abusive nature. One where an adult, whose sexual deviance, and predatory nature has moved them into forcing a child to do things they do not understand. The relationship is a sexual one, a deviant one, a damaging one.

There are two types of people who ask this question. Those that use it as an insult, whose question should not be dignified with an answer. Then there are those that find genuine suprise that Muslims revere a man who married a child. The Muslims who find this topic a fitna may also fit into this category.

The truth is usually so simple, its right under your nose.

Instead of debating how old Aisha really was, or making attacking videos of child marriages in other scriptures, or just recoiling abusively, the simple answer is to accept the hadith, and respond that cultures were different then.

The prophet married many other women, and none other as young as Aisha. For a man that gained the power he did before his death, he could have had any woman - or girl. The question for those that are truly concerned, is why not?

We have a compendium of sayings from Aisha, and we know her feelings, and thoughts about the Prophet. This was a woman who became a great scholar of Islam because of this relationship, and her affection, and protectiveness for the prophet are clear in her sayings. A far cry from the standard model of child abusers whose only interests are satisfying their sexual desires, or the permanent mental scars of the victims.

To understand something as simple as another culture, requires only sincerity. Nothing more. You could quote various statistics, such as the age of consent in the European countries just a hundred or so years ago, but you would be missing the point completely!

The answer of this querulous question does not come down to the actions of a man that lived a millenia and a half ago, but in the heart of the person asking.


Good Day!

format_quote Originally Posted by Uthmān

Raphael, your post is the most sensible thing I have read all day.

JazakAllah brother.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raphael

"People are a product of their environments, and the cultural norms have moved, such that marriage to children is frowned severely upon, with good cause too!"

There's no 'good' cause to it at all. All it really is is a newly founded morality treacherously instigated and promulgated by misandronistic feminists, homosexuals and Zionists, based on nothing but subjective arguments, preconceptions and out and out bigotry.The "good cause" you are talking about is really just a subterfuge. Ulterior motives are what primarily drive this newly founded secular morality.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raphael

Part of the reason for this, is of course most stories you hear about adult-child relationships are that of an abusive nature. One where an adult, whose sexual deviance, and predatory nature has moved them into forcing a child to do things they do not understand.

"Predator", "deviant". You have learned the fine art of the American psycho babbling parlance as empoyed by the "sex abuse industry", lol. It's kind of odd how you first say "forcing a child to do things" followed by "they do not understand". Surely if someone is being"forced" into something, why then does it matter wether or not they "understand" the thing they are being forced into?? If a thief stabs me in the back with a knife and steals my money, do you think it would really make any difference to me whether or not I understood why he did it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Raphael

The relationship is a sexual one, a deviant one, a damaging one.

Let's pull that apart then. "A Sexual one": There is no inherent problem in sex per se. "A deviant one": depends what you mean by "deviant". I regard old men who go to bed with each other as deviant. I regard lesbians as deviant. I regard feminazis as deviant, I regard infidelity as deviant. They are all deviant from the path of Islam. If a male and female are not wedded then yes that is deviant because it is zina, but if a man is married to a young girl, then this is blessed by Allah, it is not deviant. "A damaging one": If you mean "traumatic", then that can only really happen if one party is being literally raped.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raphael

There are two types of people who ask this question. Those that use it as an insult, whose question should not be dignified with an answer. Then there are those that find genuine suprise that Muslims revere a man who married a child

The two are essentially the same. The former are wolves, the latter are wolves in sheeps clothing.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raphael

The truth is usually so simple, its right under your nose.

Clearly then the "truth" that lies under your nose is very different to the one that lies under my nose. When I am confronted with posts like this, I smell nothing but BS.

format_quote Originally Posted by Raphael

A far cry from the standard model of child abusers whose only interests are satisfying their sexual desires, or the permanent mental scars of the victims.

There is nothing wrong with satisfying one's sexual desire as long as the two are married first. I don't know why you employ politically correct psycho babble cliches like "child abusers", you'd be better to cut the crap and just use "rapist" instead, that's the traditional word and it makes far more sense. Don't get the idea that only children can fall victim to rapists. Rapists have all kinds of sexual preferences. Some rape females, some rape males, some rape young, some rape the elderly, some rape animals. It would sound silly referring to someone who rapes elderly men as a "elderly man abuser", wouldn't it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Raphael

To understand something as simple as another culture, requires only sincerity. Nothing more.

Well I've already mentioned wolves in sheeps clothing, and I am quite aware what a troll is as well

format_quote Originally Posted by AbdullahSyed

We are not scholars but Shaykh Anwar Al Awlaki is and he has never seemed to try to please the west. He always spoke his mind. Also, don't forget Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was allowed to marry more then 4 women. There were exceptions for the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Ahh, but this thing about not to marry more than 4 wives was only a LATER revelation to Muhammed (PBUH). He (PBUH) would not have married more than 4 wives if he was given that revelation beforehand. And since it was only a later revelation suggests that this matter was not of particular importance anyway.

format_quote Originally Posted by julesfly

Does the religion condone sex (whether ''actual coitus'' or not) with children?

The Quran does not condemn it so therefore it is permissible under Islam. The burden of proof is on the backs of those who wish to try and claim otherwise. I can tell you that many great scholars and leaders of Islam have actually promoted it rather than discouraged it. Ayatollah Khomeini once declared to all Muslims "Do your very best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house, for it is a divine blessing".

format_quote Originally Posted by julesfly

Do you think a little girl can ''enjoy exploratory, erotic, experimental and sensual love making''?

There are swathes of scientific data to proove that children are highly sexual beings with erotic desires. I can remember so from my own childhood, and those who are honest with themselves will know what I'm talking about. Fact is that many prepubescent girls have extraoardinary sexual drive. I've even received sexual advances in the past from them, but fended them off because I did not want to commit the zina of pre-marital sex.

format_quote Originally Posted by julesfly

There are men in all cultures who have convinced themselves this is the case and we have our own names for them.

The kafir have made up endless slanderous labels and name tags for anything they dislike. They have invented slanderous name tags for men who possess the perfectly normal attraction to the natural beauty of young maidens, and they have a whole arsenal of slanderous names for Muslims in general...so do you think I'm going to give rat's arse what the infidels call us or think of us?? Naturally if I don't respect them in the first place, how am I going to be bothered by what they say or think?

format_quote Originally Posted by julesfly

All over the forum people state that a woman has a choice whether or not to marry. Do you really believe a girl with a meagre 9 years of life experience has the ability to make her own informed choices on these types of matters.

One's numerical AGE per se does NOT define whether or not they are capable or incapable of something. It is just as subjective and prejudice to claim that a person merely because of their youth is "incapable" of a certain undertaking, than to direct the same kind of prejudice towards someone because of their race. Making a prejudgment against someone just because of their AGE alone is outright AGEISM which is just as bad as racism. There are many other much more relevant criteria to take into consideration in regards to whether someone is deemed "capable" of something than judging them simply by their AGE.

I think it's also important to add too that marriage is first and foremost a contract between husband and wife. It can only be reasonably expected in the case of a very inexperienced young girl that her duties and responsibilities will be something that she would learn at her own rate. It would be ridiculous to drop her right into the deep end of things without teaching her first. There would be house duties that she would need to learn over time either through the guidance of her husband or another one of his wives (if he has more than one) or perhaps some other member of the family such as mothers, aunts or friends. It's all something she can learn at her own pace, so it's really no big deal.

format_quote Originally Posted by julesfly

Are they capable of taking crucial decisions which are essential for marriage under Quranic guidance, like taking solemn pledge, ascertaining mutual attraction, agreeing to the dowry (including adjustment thereto), ascertaining whether the opposite person is an idol worshipper or not and many other issues.

Well I consider such things to be hardly rocket science. Again, your argument is based purely on preconceptions and subjectivity, and you are arguing all this merely on the basis of someone's age itself, that's a pretty vacuous argument. There are other much more important factors that will render the degree of a person's "capability" for something. This is to do with how informed they are on things and their intrinsic degree of intelligence. I have seen enough 7 year olds in my time to put the intelligence of many 45 year olds to shame! Plain fact is that peoples' intelligence levels will vary across the board and is not determinable by age itself. There are many bright spark children and many DUMB adults too. "Worldliness" is not dependant on age per se, but what someone has been exposed to in their life. An 8 year old experiencing the fast life of a big city and with the world at their fingertips (i.e. internet, educational tv programmes etc) is going to be FAR more worldly than an isolated 50 year old farmer who has done nothing in his life other than the same old day to day routines, year in, and year out. You really need to be much more open minded and further sighted than you are being.

format_quote Originally Posted by julesfly

Further, marriage involves taking serious responsibilities on the part of both the spouses concerning the upbringing of the family, which a child is incapable of taking.

There you go again with yet more ageist bigotry. I have taken notice of how you have prefixed the word "child" with "a". This implies that you are referring systematically to every living child on the planet, the vast majority of whom you have never even SEEN in your life. So get off your high horse and stop trying to play God!

For your further information, my daughter who is 8 is married to a husband in his fifties. The marriage has worked FINE and they are both very happy, there are NO "complications" about anything, so don't you ever dare accuse my daughter of being an incapable dizzy idiot. As for the age difference, well I see no problem with that because I am not ageist. But for practical reasons I think it's also ok for there to be a wide age gap as long as the husband is not soooo decrepid as to being at death's door. Some men remain healthy and fit even into quite old age.

format_quote Originally Posted by julesfly

If you disagree with this then i think it is sooooo important that you openly condemn this.

Well I don't disagree, so you're completely out of luck! As I said, I have absolutely NO time for agesim and bigoted prejudice. And I can tell you that I know a billion times more about the individual nature of my own daughter and what's the best in her interests than you ever will.

format_quote Originally Posted by Rasema

You are shaped by your own society's definition of normal and abnormal, therefore in a society that considers this to be wrong, you are more likely to reciprocate the same sentiments....

If parents dont want to marry their younger girls, no one can force them to do so. But if they agree, no one is allowed to interfere into the marriage of a younger girl even with a aged man

Good points and well said sister Rasema.

format_quote Originally Posted by Rasema

And those Muslims who do not believe A'isha was young probably have the same upbringing. And when they learn about something they find hard to believe, they reject it outright.

And that's why the Quran explicitly states that Muslims should not live in kafir countries, so that their minds do not become corrupted with kafir attitudes.

format_quote Originally Posted by amalteser

So on this basis then, is any muslim on this forum willing to see a young girl in their family married to a 50 year old man?

Yes certainly! My 8 year old daughter is happily married to her husband who is in his 50's. To this day I have absolutely no regrets. I am a very proud father.

format_quote Originally Posted by amalteser

Is there any adult muslim man say 18 years or older who wants to be allowed to marry a young girl?

It's fascinating how you Americans always rely more on legal semantics than common sense to define the age of "adulthood". My race hit puberty at about 8-10 on average and we are fully fledged young adults by age 12, not the grand old age of 18 that you treat like some kind of "magic" number , so either you are relying on legal semantics or your race is WAY different to mine. Hmmm, also 666 is the number of Satan...interesting that 6 + 6 + 6 =18, need I say more? lol.

format_quote Originally Posted by Rasema

Which psychologist, was it Frojd? who said that children at the age of six or so are the most aggressive in having sexual desires, or something like that. I'll try to research it.

I think you might be talking about Freud. You are absolutely right that children are inherently sexual beings, and this is one reason why so many Muslim scholars and leaders throughout the ages have recommened early marriage as a measure against zina. The longer a girl is restrained from her romantic and sexual desires the more likely she is to commit zina. This is why Ayatollah Khomeini considered it to be so important for girls to marry as soon as they can. There have also been swathes of evidence from sexologists of contemporary times to prove it too, and you will be most surprised that this research has come from mavericks in West itself, (take for example the Rind study and those such as professor John Money at John Hopkins, and Kinsey etc). The reason why these peoples' voices are not heard in the West is because such truths are heavily censored and legally/politically suppressed by the infidels. So many people who voice such truths are often outcasted and lose their jobs etc.

format_quote Originally Posted by An33za

[I][COLOR=Red] @ Brother Karl: But please note that I don't say like brother AbdullahSyed that marrying 9 year old girls is allowed or disallowed! Fact is, I don't know. You should too not argue on such things without 100% proof.

Brother An33za, the onus of proof lies on anyone claiming something to be "disallowed", seeing they are the ones trying to make such a claim in the FIRST place. It is only logical that what is allowed under Islam would be anything the Holy Quran does not explicitly condemn. If the Holy Quran openly and explicitly condemns something, then naturally that is disallowed under Islam. However if the Quran does not make any condemnation of something, then it is only obvious as the day is long that it's permissible.This is just common sense. Therefore the marriage of young women or girls of ANY age is permissible under the laws of Islam, crystal clear, plain and simple.

format_quote Originally Posted by An33za

Many governments today don't allow marriages below the age of 18!

That's because they are godless usurpers. I am aware that not only do "age of consent" laws exist in the West, I have heard that these tyranical laws have been enacted by corrupt sycophantic puppet governments of around 17 "Muslim" states (all as a result of pressure and bullying by western powers). This is an utter outrage because not only is the concept of "Age of Consent" in blatant violation to Sharia, it is also in violation against parents' God given right to raise their own offspring AS THEY SEE FIT. The very principle of AoC is in direct violation of the fundamental principle of parental rights and the age old maxim "a man's house is his castle". AoC laws represent an implied declaration by the state that parents' offspring are appropriated by the socialist state right from the time they are born. They are therefore born as "state property", the parent's sole rights are usurped by the totalitarian socialists and they are forcibly demoted to mere "foster parents". The selfrighteous arrogant secularists and busybody socialists are bonafide plundereres of private property and this is one good reason why the fight against them must never end.

format_quote Originally Posted by An33za

So if you say that marrying a 9 year old is allowed, then you should have some authentic verses or ahadith supporting it or directing at it. If there are such verses, then believe me, I don't have any problem with that.

As I said before, the Holy Qur'an focuses only on what is forbidden, not what is allowed. It works on a similar basis as the 10 commandments of Moses. (example "thou shalt not steal" etc). It is only logical that the Qur'an was formatted in that manner as well, because if it listed every single aspect of life right down to the most smallest and trivial details of what was allowed, one would die of old age before they could finish reading the Qur'an! I also repeat again, the onus of proof remains on anyone attempting to declare something as "haram"!

format_quote Originally Posted by Karl

All it really is is a newly founded morality treacherously instigated and promulgated by misandronistic feminists, homosexuals and Zionists

Ah yes of course, anyone who finds the sexual abuse of children must be a feminist, homosexual, or a fanatic supporter of the Israeli state. You must be clearly fond of these groups considering they are the only ones with any sense of justice according to your skewed outlook?!

format_quote Originally Posted by Karl

It's kind of odd how you first say "forcing a child to do things" followed by "they do not understand". Surely if someone is being"forced" into something, why then does it matter wether or not they "understand" the thing they are being forced into??

It seems your impressive understanding of the human psyce is only second to your love of children. The action is loaded, because it involves the bleeding of a young mind. The coercion of a child towards a sexual action is morally bankrupt because of the exploitation of their naivety. I never thought I would have to explain something so basic to anyone over the age of 10.

format_quote Originally Posted by Karl

Let's pull that apart then. "A Sexual one": There is no inherent problem in sex per se.

Perhaps you should read a statement in context. Any relationship that is purely sexual, is deviant, regardless of marital status. Any husband who views his wife as purely a relief for his desires, with no considerations for her feelings, is not a good husband in my opinion. But I do understand there are some backward Muslim tribes who hold this view. I'm just surprised their members have internet connection.

format_quote Originally Posted by Karl

Clearly then the "truth" that lies under your nose is very different to the one that lies under my nose.

Well I am thankful to Allah for that!

format_quote Originally Posted by Karl

There is nothing wrong with satisfying one's sexual desire as long as the two are married first. I don't know why you employ politically correct psycho babble cliches like "child abusers", you'd be better to cut the crap and just use "rapist" instead, that's the traditional word and it makes far more sense. Don't get the idea that only children can fall victim to rapists. Rapists have all kinds of sexual preferences. Some rape females, some rape males, some rape young, some rape the elderly, some rape animals. It would sound silly referring to someone who rapes elderly men as a "elderly man abuser", wouldn't it?

Righttt. :clever:

format_quote Originally Posted by Karl

Yes certainly! My 8 year old daughter is happily married to her husband who is in his 50's. To this day I have absolutely no regrets. I am a very proud father.





It's fascinating how you Americans always rely more on legal semantics than common sense to define the age of "adulthood". My race hit puberty at about 8-10 on average and we are fully fledged young adults by age 12, not the grand old age of 18 that you treat like some kind of "magic" number , so either you are relying on legal semantics or your race is WAY different to mine. Hmmm, also 666 is the number of Satan...interesting that 6 + 6 + 6 =18, need I say more? lol.

Oh the typical muslim arrogance!!!

And as for your superstious paranoia about 6 + 6 + 6 =18, just laughable!!!

In reply to islam and muslims who must mentally contort themselves, to defend 'child marriage'!!!

What about 'thighing' in islam???

And what about Mohammad's interest in a crawling baby, who he wished to marry when she was grown up, if he lived long enough???

Didn't allah know about the size of a little girls pelvis for child birth???

The start of puberty, does NOT equal maturity!!!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puberty