When asked about Jesus’ Crucifixion, Muslims will invariably reference one ayah from the Koran, to support their conviction.
Islam bases an entire doctrine regarding Jesus’ crucifixion & death upon the cross, on a single solitary Koranic ayah.
And in this single solitary ayah, the entire doctrine teeters upon the rendering of a single solitary word (wama) – which Islam has misinterpreted as a negative.
The correct rendering of this ayah is as thus…
وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan
4.157 And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.
To overcome the Muslim mindset, we need to first define the Arabic word that has been misinterpreted by Islam.
Here is the classic Arabic definition for "ma"...
ما = “ma”
“ma” definition:
Conjunctive pronoun. That; which; that which; whatsoever; what; as; as much; in such a manner as; as much as; as for as; any kind; when; how. Does not, as a rule, refer to reasonable things, but instances to the contrary sometimes occur. It is one of those particles, which, in conditional propositions, govern the verb in the conditional mood; it is frequently a mere expletive. It is also a negative adverb, Not; in general it denies a circumstance either present, or of past, but little remote from the present; it governs the attribute in the accusative, thus it is a negative particle when placed before the perfect as in 53.2; or before a pronoun as in 68.2; or before an demonstrative noun as in 12.31. The particle, when joined to the perfect, denies the past; when joined to the imperfect, the present.
References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3016
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 2, p. 300
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 523 - 524
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 135 - 136
As we can see below..."ma", when joined to "wa", is simply a filler-word in this ayah...
وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا
Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan
4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.
As witnessed by the plethora of positives in this ayah, the conditional mood is only positive.
Couple this, to the very next ayah, as thus…
بل رفعه الله إليه وكان الله عزيزا حكيما
Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman
4.158 But “allah”, he raised Him to him, and “allah” mighty, wise.
4.157 & 4.158 tell us of its most likely Biblical source...
This One given to you by the before-determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you having taken by lawless hands, having crucified Him, you killed Him. But God raised Him up, loosing the throes of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it. (Act 2.23 - 24)
As we can see, 4.157 & 4.158 are simply parroting NT material...
Thus, context is clear that in 4.157 “wama” is simply governing the verb in the conditional mood – which is positive….NOT negative.
Further, rendering this Islamic one-hit-wonder ayah as a negative would force other Koranic ayahs into contradiction.
As further evidence that 4.157 confirms Jesus’ death upon the cross, all the Koranic crucifixion instances are shown here, which confirm that the Koran always describes a crucifixion event with complete certainty of death…
• 5.33…they will be crucified till death
• 7.124…I will surely crucify you till death
• 12.41…so will be crucified till death
• 20.71…and I will surely crucify you till death
• 26.49…and I will surely crucify you till death
Death through crucifixion is always mandated in the Koran.
Thus, there is no reason at all to believe that 4.157 would break this trend…
http://www.freeforum101.com/koranicb...m=koranicbible
The Quran can be intepreted in whatever ways ppl want...british muslim gays claim that the Quran actually doesn't say anything wrong about gay love...but the correct way is to look at the Sunnah or the explanation(hadith) of the prophet...only then, we can truly understand what the Words of Allah actually imply/mean..
Last edited by Abdul Qadir; 01-11-2010 at 12:07 AM.
Please check yourself:
1. Recently I received from an Imam, a complimentary copy of the booklet 'A BRIEF ILLUSTRATED GUIDE TO UNDERSTANDING ISLAM'. This beautifully illustrated publication is published by DARUSSALAM, Publishers and Distributors, Houston, Texas, U.S.A.
On page 58 appears the under mentioned English text of a verse from the Holy Qur'an:
...They said, “We killed the Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of God." They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Qur'an, 4:157)
2. Last year I purchased a copy of 'THE NOBLE QUR'AN' in English Language. The cover page states "Interpretation of the meanings of The Noble Qur'an'. Inside it reads; THE NOBLE QUR'AN Translated by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan. Published by DARUSSALAM, Publishers and Distributors, P. O. Box 22743, Riyadh, 11416, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Fifteenth Revised Edition. December 1996.
On page 199 appears the under mentioned English text for the above verse 4:157:
"And because of their saying (in boast). We killed Messiah 'Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Isa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)..."
After reading of the above text or texts a reader may conclude that Allah (SWT) has Himself Revealed in His Own Words the;
"substitution of 'Isa (Jesus) with another man".
The wordings of the original Arabic text do not categorically speak of "substitution of 'Isa (a.s.) with another man". Here is the transliteration of the actual Arabic text and its literal translation as translated by other Muslim and non Muslim translators. I hope and pray that this will give the readers an opportunity to understand the "Words of Allah".
The publishers of 'The Noble Qur'an' have printed the original Arabic text, side by side with the English text. The text which reads:
"but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of
'Isa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man)"
is the translation / interpretation of the Arabic text that reads:
"wa ma qatala hu wa ma salabu hu wa lakin shubbiha lahum"
The variations appear in the translation/interpretation of the end portion of the verse which reads: "wa lakin shubbiha lahum"
wa means: And, also, but, whilst.
lakin means; But, still, nevertheless.
shubbiha means; To be made like; A likeness or similitude.
(This could refer to: A likeness or similitude (of Jesus), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing), or
A likeness or similitude (of Crucifixion), or
A likeness or similitude (of Killing & Crucifixion)
lahum means; Was made for them.
Below are the other English translations by Muslims and non Muslim scholars for comparison:
1. Translation by Allama Abdullah Yusuf Ali:
"But they killed him not, nor crucified him,
only a likeness of that was shown to them."
2. Translation by Mohammed Marmaduke Pickthall:
"...They slew him not nor crucified
but it appeared so unto them;"
3. Translation by Professor Arthur J. Arberry:
"...yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him,
only a likeness of that was shown to them."
In the above English translations the translators have refrained from advocating any specific theory since Allah (SWT) has not mentioned any of the prevalent theories on the subject in this verse or anywhere else in the Qur'an. (I repeat "in the Qur'an").
My source http://www.mostmerciful.com/substitution.htm
Also, Dr. Zakir Naik has an excellent debate against dr. william campell to prove that the bible acknowladges the fact that Jesus peace be upon him was not killed on the cross.
Please search "zakir naik debate with william campbell" on youtube. Its a long debate with tons of parts.
I cant figure out how to edit my previous post, but I want to let you know that your translation of the verse is waaay off, as are your other translations. Anyone who knows the arabic language can understand what the verse means without reading a translation.
The difference between us here, is that you are depending on biased articles and meaningless sources and you do not understand the verse yourself, nor the meaning of the words in arabic. Had you known the language and read the verse yourself, you would understand you trying to point out something that does not exist. And there is no way you can make your point against something that does not exist.
we're not submitted to any councils of CHURCH regarding Creed...
Kuffar of all creeds are a funny bunch...
(10: 15) AND [thus it is:] whenever Our messages are conveyed unto them in all their clarity, those who do not believe that they are destined to meet Us [are wont to] say, "Bring us a discourse other than this, or alter this one."23 Say [O Prophet]: "It is not conceivable that I should alter it of my own volition; I only follow what is revealed to me. Behold, I would dread, were I [thus] to rebel against my Sustainer, the suffering [which would befall me] on that awesome Day [of Judgment]!"
Salaam sister,format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye
we wonder why these people trying hard to force their Church Councils Creed on others? yeah, it's funny though
even i'm not a pure arab, but I still realize the function of maa particle... maa fee'nnuqoud, maa fee moschkilah...
After liguestic analysis one can safely, reject that shubbiha means A likeness or similitude (of Jesus).format_quote Originally Posted by Walkinfront
details in next post inshaAllah....
that post should be deleted, he was promoting christianity with a poor attempt
Which post mine? If I made any mistakes please let me know inshallah
no akhi the thread starter was trying to promote christianityformat_quote Originally Posted by Walkinfront
wa3lykoum aslaam wr wb...format_quote Originally Posted by malayloveislamSalaam sister,
we wonder why these people trying hard to force their Church Councils Creed on others? yeah, it's funny though
even i'm not a pure arab, but I still realize the function of maa particle... maa fee'nnuqoud, maa fee moschkilah...
People don't like the straight path.. They like to swerve and follow their whims.. I don't know why.. but if you don't play by the rules, then don't complain if you lose you know...
anyhow, I thought the original post was laughable and with every silly attempt on their path they prove the Quran to be ever inimitable ! sob7an Allah..
He was being sarcastic of you.. are you a concrete thinker?format_quote Originally Posted by Apple7
lol this is a joke,the fake english you translated in no way corresponds to the Arabic in surah 4:157, in the Arabic it clearly says they didnt kill him, nor crucified him, there is no if's or but's, it makes it clear.
putting parenthesis around a word is a divagation, as it is clearly understood. But (in boast) still has no relevance to the topic of Jesus alleged crucifixion which didn't happen. Unlike the bible the Quran isn't open for the christian rendition!
all the best
Subhanallah..that Ayat's translation for "we killed him.." refer to the jews...it goes like this:
"....and because of their(jews) saying (in boast), "we(jews) killed Messiah 'Isa(jesus), son of Maryam(Mary, the messenger of Allah)" - but they(jews) Killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblence of Isa(Jesus) was put over another man(and they killed the man)..."
Congratulations, you have managed to see something that Arabic speakers, Muslim and non-Muslim have overlooked for 1400 years. Here all of these years the Arabic language scholars always thought that in the context used ما denoted the immediatly following as being in the negative.format_quote Originally Posted by Apple7
please ignore this post...format_quote Originally Posted by Abdul Qadir
You need to go back to the stealth crusade academy and get new material!format_quote Originally Posted by Apple7
all the best!
no Allah isnt, did Allah tell you to worship a dead man on a cross? did Allah tell you the man on the cross died for your sins? last i checked christian councils made those doctrines up, not Allah, lol the fact you cant even realize this shows your not too good at thinking, i know many Christians like using the dumb argument you just used, but its funny you dont realize its major flaw.format_quote Originally Posted by Apple7
ill convert to Christianity right now if you bring me verses from the Quran which says Allah told you to believe that Jesus died for your sins to be saved, if you cant bring it, and you will never be able to bring it, then why do you lie and say Allah directly made Christianity? tut tut, or maybe you didnt lie, and we go back to my first point, that your incapable of even thinking properly.
so your either a liar, or a person who cant think properly, lol, you decide.
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