Help please

**Alchemist** · 03-19-2010

There's an argument on a forum I'm on, about weather Islam orders to kill those who insult the prophet, and I'm not very good at debating.. but I want to defend Islam. so if any knowlageble person could kindly help me..

shokran

**islamirama** · 03-19-2010

What are you trying to defend?

Prophet (s) was not just a prophet and messenger but also a statement, leader of a nation and an empire. Attacking was grounds of treason and you ask them to name one state that doesn't have death penalty for treason?

The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) becomes a kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed. This consensus was narrated by more than one of the scholars, such as Imaam Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Ibn al-Mundhir, al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad, al-Khattaabi and others. Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/13-16

This ruling is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

In the Qur’aan it says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The hypocrites fear lest a Soorah (chapter of the Qur’aan) should be revealed about them, showing them what is in their hearts. Say: ‘(Go ahead and) mock! But certainly Allaah will bring to light all that you fear.’

If you ask them (about this), they declare: ‘We were only talking idly and joking.’ Say: ‘Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?’

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”

[al-Tawbah 9:64-66]

This verse clearly states that mocking Allaah, His verses and His Messenger constitutes kufr, so that applies even more so to insulting. The verse also indicates that whoever belittles the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is also a kaafir, whether he was serious or joking.

With regard to the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (4362) narrated from ‘Ali that a Jewish woman used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him, so a man strangled her until she died, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled that no blood money was due in this case.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Saarim al-Maslool (1/162): This hadeeth is jayyid, and there is a corroborating report in the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas which we will quote below.

This hadeeth clearly indicates that it was permissible to kill that woman because she used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Abu Dawood (4361) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that a blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.” Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”

(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 3655)

It seems that this woman was a kaafir, not a Muslim, for a Muslim could never do such an evil action. If she was a Muslim she would have become an apostate by this action, in which case it would not have been permissible for her master to keep her; in that case it would not have been good enough if he were to keep her and simply rebuke her.

Al-Nasaa’i narrated (4071) that Abu Barzah al-Aslami said: A man spoke harshly to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq and I said, ‘Shall I kill him?’ He rebuked me and said, ‘That is not for anyone after the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) .’” (Saheeh al-Nasaa’i, 3795)

It may be noted from this that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had the right to kill whoever insulted him and spoke harshly to him, and that included both Muslims and kaafirs.

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/22809

**Alchemist** · 03-19-2010

I mean nowdays.. for example the bad drawings about Mohamed (saw) should muslims kill the one who drew these bad drawings..

**Eliphaz** · 03-19-2010

Basically don't insult the Prophet in an Islamic state, or you will probably die.

**Skavau** · 03-19-2010

Prophet (s) was not just a prophet and messenger but also a statement, leader of a nation and an empire. Attacking was grounds of treason and you ask them to name one state that doesn't have death penalty for treason?

Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Ireland, New Zealand, United Kingdom just to name some.

In a world that is developing into a global communication network where the actions of a microstate have the butterfly affect to involve the UN - treason will soon become an outdated concept. You ought to owe no state favours, nor obligations.

**Eliphaz** · 03-19-2010

Originally Posted by Alchemist

I mean nowdays.. for example the bad drawings about Mohamed (saw) should muslims kill the one who drew these bad drawings..

I'm slightly shocked and concerned that you actually need to ask that.

**Alchemist** · 03-19-2010

Originally Posted by Eliphaz

I'm slightly shocked and concerned that you actually need to ask that.

I'm just showing him what I mean. the way I said it was stupid though

**Eliphaz** · 03-19-2010

Originally Posted by Alchemist

I'm just showing him what I mean. the way I said it was stupid though

Okay, well I know being a non-muslim my posts are deemed ignorant and lacking in knowledge and will soon be deleted by the thread police, but just to throw in my ten cents here:

If you are talking about outside an Islamic state, there is no ruling that suggests Muslims should take up arms against those who insult the Prophet but rather that they should obey the laws of the land:

Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “It is necessary upon a Muslim to listen to and obey the ruler, as long as one is not ordered to carry out a sin. If he is commanded to commit a sin, then there is no adherence and obedience.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 2796 & Sunan Tirmidhi)

**Alchemist** · 03-19-2010

Originally Posted by Eliphaz

Okay, well I know being a non-muslim my posts are deemed ignorant and lacking in knowledge and will soon be deleted by the thread police, but just to throw in my ten cents here:

If you are talking about outside an Islamic state, there is no ruling that suggests Muslims should take up arms against those who insult the Prophet but rather that they should obey the laws of the land:

Sayyiduna Abd Allah ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “It is necessary upon a Muslim to listen to and obey the ruler, as long as one is not ordered to carry out a sin. If he is commanded to commit a sin, then there is no adherence and obedience.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 2796 & Sunan Tirmidhi)

oh i see.. anyways you're not muslim, why do you hang out here ? lol
are against/with islam ?

**Eliphaz** · 03-19-2010

Originally Posted by Alchemist

oh i see.. anyways you're not muslim, why do you hang out here ? lol
are against/with islam ?

I am for truth, no particular religion or ideology. But then again I suppose that makes me against Islam according to many.

**Alchemist** · 03-23-2010

right.. anyways can a someone help me reply to these people.. since I'm not good at debating.. I tried to but it's hard..
[link removed]

if anyone could guide me on how to reply.. or you can make an account there and do it yourself.. that would be greatly appreciatted

**believeByHEART.** · 03-23-2010

Originally Posted by Alchemist

right.. anyways can a someone help me reply to these people.. since I'm not good at debating.. I tried to but it's hard.. [link removed]

if anyone could guide me on how to reply.. or you can make an account there and do it yourself.. that would be greatly appreciatted

LOL, hmm i think people on that forum need 'ignorance' written all over their forehead, and a good studying about Islam :/

and LOL at the dude who says thieves shouldnt have their hands cuts off. id like to see how he handles it when a burglar comes and raids his house takes all his possesions, gets caught, doesnt have the posessions no more and gets a ridiculous prisonment not worth much justice, and finds out the burglar has done this crime multiple times before? personally, i like that law, with that law in place, who'd risk their dear limbs anyhow?

**Alchemist** · 03-23-2010

Originally Posted by believeByHEART.

LOL, hmm i think people on that forum need 'ignorance' written all over their forehead, and a good studying about Islam :/

and LOL at the dude who says thieves shouldnt have their hands cuts off. id like to see how he handles it when a burglar comes and raids his house takes all his possesions, gets caught, doesnt have the posessions no more and gets a ridiculous prisonment not worth much justice, and finds out the burglar has done this crime multiple times before? personally, i like that law, with that law in place, who'd risk their dear limbs anyhow?

I agree, these members 2030 & Alex E always make anti-Islam threads, and act like they understand Islam and stuff.. bigots.. I hope someone knowlegable from here could end this nonsense and have a proper debate with them.. where's ansar al adl ?

**Alchemist** · 03-24-2010

anyone please ?

**Muhammad** · 03-24-2010

In my opinion, you are wasting your time trying to 'debate' with people who don't want to know the truth. I haven't seen the forum you posted, but as you described them as always making "anti-Islam" threads, it indicates that they're not intending to learn what Islam actually teaches in the first place. Sometimes, even when you present the correct understanding to such people, they're not interested in that but rather the ignorant views that will support their hatred for Islam.

Also, if a person lacks knowledge of Islam and is not a 'good debater' - and this is the case with many if not most people on such forums - then it's best to stay away from such debates as it will be difficult to achieve benefit through them, both in terms of speaking with knowledge and having an effective approach. It can actually cause a harm to yourself because if your own knowledge of Islam is weak, then you expose your heart to doubts and you end up wasting a huge amount of time which would be much better spent in studying Islam and implementing it - the thing that will be far more beneficial for you in this life and the hereafter.

May Allaah (swt) guide us all, Aameen.

Thread closed.